Pod Insights True Crime All The Time James VanCallis About this episode April Millsap was murdered while walking her dog on a popular Michigan trail. Prosecutors used data from her digital footprint to help secure a conviction in her 2014 murder case.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss James VanCallis. Some eyewitnesses saw a man on a motorcycle interacting with a young girl on the trail, and they were able to provide a composite sketch. The police had to work to put together a circumstantial case against VanCallis. Would it be enough for a jury to convict?
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Transcript 10,060 words · 4 speakers
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1:48 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 424 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing well.
1:59 Speaker 00 I am doing much better than I was last week.
2:02 Speaker 01 It's getting ready to be.
2:02 Speaker 00 Thanks for asking.
2:05 Speaker 01 How are you?
2:06 Speaker 00 You know, I'm, I'm over my illness.
2:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:09 Speaker 00 And my wife, who was sick at least one week before she gave it to me, is still sick.
2:15 Speaker 01 I know.
2:16 Speaker 00 She just cannot get over, but I've been hearing from a lot of people that some of the stuff that's going around is lasting weeks and weeks.
2:24 Speaker 01 Hard to kick.
2:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, apparently so. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Stephanie Williams.
2:30 Speaker 01 Hey Stephanie.
2:31 Speaker 00 Scott 85.
2:32 Speaker 01 What's going on Scott?
2:33 Speaker 00 Amber Sweetheart.
2:35 Speaker 01 Well, hey, thanks Amber.
2:36 Speaker 00 Scott Kane.
2:37 Speaker 01 Hey Kane.
2:38 Speaker 00 Sidney Waddell, who's been with us forever.
2:42 Speaker 01 Waddell in the house.
2:43 Speaker 00 Welcoming her back. Dessa.
2:46 Speaker 01 Hey Dessa.
2:46 Speaker 00 Kelly jumped out of her highest level.
2:48 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Kelly.
2:49 Speaker 00 Amber Palmer.
2:51 Speaker 01 Palmer.
2:53 Speaker 00 That, that was exciting for you?
2:55 Speaker 01 It is.
2:55 Speaker 00 Okay. Dixie, wait for it. Normous.
3:00 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Dixie enormous.
3:03 Speaker 00 Wait, why did you add another E in there?
3:07 Speaker 01 I just needed to make sure I didn't say it the way that you thought I might say it.
3:10 Speaker 00 I know. You gotta put a pause in that one.
3:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:13 Speaker 00 Cara Jett, and last but not least Natalie R.
3:17 Speaker 01 Thanks Cara.
3:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
3:18 Speaker 01 Thanks Natalie.
3:19 Speaker 00 Thanks for all the new support. And then if we go back into the vault.
3:24 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Rhonda Allred.
3:26 Speaker 01 Man Rhonda, awesome.
3:27 Speaker 00 Been with us a long time, has communicated with us a lot over the years. So really appreciate that long-term support.
3:35 Speaker 01 Communicate, it sounds weird when you say it that way. I don't know why.
3:38 Speaker 00 Why?
3:39 Speaker 01 I don't know.
3:39 Speaker 00 She has communicated with us.
3:41 Speaker 01 She has communicated.
3:42 Speaker 00 Emails, maybe even voicemails, I don't know. Gibbs, right, we dropped a new Patreon episode Saturday night, and it's on the disappearance of Jeremy Burt. So he disappeared from the Boise area in 2007. He's never been found. Police don't know exactly what happened to him. But in recent years, there's been some things that have come to light that have led to a lot of speculation that Jeremy's disappearance could be related to an earlier missing persons case in the same area.
4:18 Speaker 01 Some interesting ties.
4:19 Speaker 00 It is, you know, people are tied to both of these individuals, and it makes for some compelling speculation. We also have a brand new episode out right now on. True Crime All The Time Unsolved, where we're talking about 23 year old Stephen Clark, who disappeared in 1992 in North Yorkshire. So we're headed to Cross the Pond. It was almost 30 years later that his parents were arrested on suspicion of murder, accused of killing their son and burying his body in their back garden.
4:58 Speaker 01 Spooky man.
4:59 Speaker 00 Yeah. So there's a lot to unpack. Make sure you check that one out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
5:07 Speaker 01 I am ready.
5:08 Speaker 00 We're talking about James Van Callis. April Millsap was murdered while walking her dog on a popular trail. Prosecutors used data from her fitness tracker app to help secure conviction in her case. And this is a pretty well-known, popular true crime case to some. I think the inclusion of kind of a type of technology that you don't think about a lot, maybe draws interest from people. You know, you and I talk about it all the time. What type of digital footprint, you know, do we leak everywhere we go?
5:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:50 Speaker 00 And you think about, okay, you have your phone with you. That thing is chock full of data.
5:56 Speaker 01 It is.
5:57 Speaker 00 How many people think about something like a Fitbit though? Or like an exercise type of technology that's not directly related to their cell phone, I would say.
6:09 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, Fitbit, a Garmin, or whatever different ones that are out there. There's a bunch of them out there.
6:15 Speaker 00 Now, most of them, I think nowadays are tied into your phones, but April was only 14 years old when she was murdered. She lived in Armada, Michigan with her mother Jennifer. April was going to start high school in the fall of 2014. Her mother said she looked forward to having more independence. And I think that's, you know, what a lot of people getting ready to go into high school kind of view it as. You know, yes, you're graduating from junior high to high school. It it won't be long before you're able to drive. You start thinking about all these different ways that you're going to have a little bit more freedom, a little more independence.
7:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, along with that comes more responsibility, but it's fun.
7:05 Speaker 00 Now, I remember my freshman year, I was just worried that for some reason, maybe based on old sitcom tropes, that I was going to be shoved into a locker. Seniors were going to shove me into a trash can or something like that.
7:23 Speaker 01 Your first year or your second year as a freshman?
7:26 Speaker 00 I think it was my first year. Yeah, because I I know you were seventeen and a half years old when you were a freshman. But you, chances are, you were bigger than most of the seniors.
7:41 Speaker 01 I was ready for three o'clock high.
7:43 Speaker 00 You were. You were the guy that people hired.
7:46 Speaker 01 Exactly.
7:47 Speaker 00 When they needed protecting. April loved animals, nature and writing. She was described as a good student and enjoyed studying German. And I don't know how many people actually enjoy studying German. I've never taken German. It does seem like a hard language to master.
8:08 Speaker 01 I found it a very interesting statement that I enjoyed studying German language.
8:13 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:14 Speaker 00 I I know you've really big into Mandarin.
8:17 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, I got that down.
8:18 Speaker 00 And I was impressed.
8:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:21 Speaker 00 Because I would love for you to keep working on your English, but you keep trying out other languages and mastering them before you've actually mastered the English language.
8:33 Speaker 01 A lot of fun. And then I do all that transcribing work, you know.
8:37 Speaker 00 Is there translation involved in the transcribing?
8:39 Speaker 01 Actually is.
8:40 Speaker 00 Okay.
8:42 Speaker 01 We call it the double transing.
8:46 Speaker 00 Double Ts. On the evening of July 24th, 2014, April left to take her dog for a walk on the Macomb Orchard Trail, which was near her house. At 6:28 PM, April texted her boyfriend, "I think I almost got kidnapped." O M F G.
9:05 Speaker 01 How freaky is that?
9:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I think for anyone, boyfriend, family member, you know, 14 year old girl, texts you and says, "I think I almost got kidnapped." Okay, there's going to be a little bit of fright there for you, and obviously there was for her. Several witnesses saw April having a strange interaction with a man on a motorcycle shortly before this. The Detroit Free Press reported that moments after sending the text, April was attacked and beaten to death. And then about two hours later, April's dog alerted two joggers to her body, which was found in a drainage ditch.
9:48 Speaker 00 So, I mean, obviously, this is an extremely tragic story. When you think about a 14 year old girl losing her life, I also can't help but feel a lot of emotion for the dog.
10:02 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure.
10:03 Speaker 00 You know, dogs are so attached to their owners. They're so protective. And it's hard not to get a little emotional about, you know, thinking about her dog, you're tracking someone down to say, "Hey, come help her."
10:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, she needs help.
10:24 Speaker 00 And that's ultimately what happens, but by the time they find her, she's dead. Jennifer Millsap became worried. When April stopped answering her calls and texts, she met the police at the trail. A police officer who responded to the scene testified that April's blouse was torn and moved to her waist. Her undergarments were also removed, per CBS. There were marks on April's body that appeared to be shoe prints.
10:54 Speaker 01 So either kicked or used to hold her down.
10:57 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, at some point, stomped, held down, kicked. None of it was good.
11:06 Speaker 00 But I, I think on top of what is a very tragic murder, you know, when you look at a, a woman who is found in this state of undress to the police, you know, one of the first things, or one of the first thoughts has to be, okay, was there some type of sexual assault as well? A witness reported that they saw a man on a motorcycle interacting with a teenager on the trail. They provided the description for a composite sketch, which was released
11:45 Speaker 00 in late July 2014. Investigators also received tips about a blue and white motorcycle that was driven by a young man with a black helmet. Okay, that's pretty good stuff.
11:57 Speaker 01 It is.
11:58 Speaker 00 Because you think about a lot of the cases that we do, especially when you kind of delve into some of the unsolved, when you boil it down, a lot of the times, police just have so very little to work with, especially in, in the way of kind of eyewitness statements or, you know, things like that. But here, they've got a, quite a bit. People saw a young girl with a guy, someone was able to give enough information for a sketch. They even had a description of the motorcycle.
12:34 Speaker 01 Sometimes I think it just works out that you have everything that falls into place, right? The witnesses and the, the sketch and no time delay and just get moving on it.
12:45 Speaker 00 But, you know, when you break it down, think about what it takes to solve a crime. First of all, there's a lot of hard work.
12:53 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
12:53 Speaker 00 By a lot of different people. You gotta do things right. You gotta do things by the book. But I would think, Gibbs, there has got to be, in almost every case, a little bit, if not a lot of luck. As you said, kind of. People seeing things, kind of stumbling sometimes upon the right clues or the right information. I don't want to denigrate the police in any way, but I just have to believe that luck plays a factor in solving some of these cases.
13:30 Speaker 01 For sure. And the police welcome that luck.
13:32 Speaker 00 Oh yeah, they're definitely not going to turn it down. On July 30th, the police executed a search warrant at a home in Wales township as part of the murder investigation. They arrested 66-year-old James Bernard Van Callas and 32-year-old James Donald Van Callas, father and son. They were charged with delivery and manufacturing marijuana and maintaining a drug house. But they were not charged in connection with April's murder. Okay, so I get it. A lot of sons and dads, they like to do things together, you know, want to try to find maybe a shared hobby.
14:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:15 Speaker 00 I don't know how many have a shared hobby of manufacturing and distributing marijuana.
14:26 Speaker 01 You just want to be close to your son.
14:28 Speaker 00 And maybe it was a matter of, you know, kind of bringing him into the family business. I don't know. It just seems so strange. My whole life, as I think a lot of people do, you don't want to look bad in the eyes of your parents. Now, I'm assuming this guy didn't look down on his son because he was already doing all this stuff.
14:52 Speaker 01 Exactly.
14:53 Speaker 00 But most parents would look down on this type of behavior. The Times Herald reported that James Bernard Van Callas is a registered sex offender convicted in 1995 of second-degree criminal sexual conduct with a person under 13 and fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct with a person between 13 and 16.
15:18 Speaker 01 So real POS.
15:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. But yet, obviously, you know, he's out, he's able to go on with his life. Now, he's a registered sex offender, but is that really stopping him from committing more crimes against children? It's obviously not stopping him from being a major player in the marijuana game.
15:43 Speaker 01 What you would think would be some type of violation of parole back then.
15:47 Speaker 00 Well, I don't know if he was on parole.
15:50 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
15:51 Speaker 00 At this point in time. It had been a number of years. His parole had probably ended. Another search was conducted at the residence in Wells Township in August 2014, but investigators did not reveal details of the investigation. But then on August 19, 2014, the Michigan State Police named 32-year-old James Van Kowalski as a person of interest in the murder of April Millsap. It was reported that he was unwilling to speak to the police. Not a shocker.
16:24 Speaker 01 No.
16:25 Speaker 00 Meanwhile, James and his father waived their right to a preliminary examination on the drug charges. Their attorney, Dean Ancooney, said, per the Times Herald, "My client's home has been raided twice within a two-and-a-half-week period, and they're very upset about that. They feel that the police are harassing them, and they feel that they've left their home ransacked twice now within a short period of time, even though my clients have been cooperative from the beginning." He noted that both his clients had medical marijuana cards that were valid at the time of the search and arrest. Okay, a lot of people nowadays have medical marijuana cards, or did back then. Nowadays, most people
17:10 Speaker 00 don't even need them.
17:11 Speaker 01 No, not in Michigan, you don't.
17:12 Speaker 00 It's pretty legal in a lot of places, but, you know, even 10 years ago, right? Having a medical marijuana card, I don't believe gave you the right to have a big grow operation.
17:28 Speaker 01 No, I think you were limiting what you could produce.
17:30 Speaker 00 And to distribute. I really don't think it was a kind of a free-for-all license.
17:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think that.
17:39 Speaker 00 Hey, I've got glaucoma.
17:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, I have a card. I'm allowed to do this. I just had a little bit extra, so I thought I'd sell it.
17:47 Speaker 00 The following month, Ann Cooney said he expected James to be charged with murder, but believed he was wrongfully targeted. And what else is he going to say as a defense attorney?
17:58 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, my guy's guilty.
18:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I, I think they got the right guy. On October 8th, 2014, Macomb County Prosecutor Eric Smith announced that James Van Callas was charged with first degree murder, felony murder, and assault with intent to commit sexual penetration. He told the public, once you clear a thousand tips and so many suspects, and the only thing that keeps popping up is James Van Callas, it just added to the weight that we believe that now we have enough to charge.
18:35 Speaker 01 Well, if the common thing is always James, you gotta go with it.
18:42 Speaker 00 Boy, it sounds like they had cleared a lot of potential suspects. The one person they couldn't clear was James Van Call.
18:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:52 Speaker 00 The prosecution intended to present physical and electronic evidence as well as eyewitness testimony, placing James at the scene. During his bond hearing, an officer told the judge that James ambushed April from behind, using his motorcycle helmet as a weapon, then took her into a wooded area on the trail where she was killed. April's cause of death was asphyxia due to neck compression and blunt head trauma. So, I mean, you know, you just, you feel so horrible for a young 14-year-old girl who is not doing anything wrong.
19:35 Speaker 01 No, she was just out enjoying the scenic walk.
19:39 Speaker 00 With her dog.
19:40 Speaker 01 With her dog. Yeah.
19:41 Speaker 00 And a monster comes along and makes a decision that he's going to do something horrible. An eyewitness saw a man on a blue and white motorcycle, speaking to April just before she texted her boyfriend. Prosecutors theorize that April rebuffed Van Callas and he attacked her when she turned around. He attempted to sexually assault her, but was interrupted by a witness who helped create a sketch of the suspect. James' mother Brenda Pupi spoke to the Times Herald and maintained her son's innocence after he pleaded guilty
20:21 Speaker 00 to a drug charge on October 20th, 2014. She told the Times Herald, "James is a great father. He's a great kid. He wouldn't do this."
20:31 Speaker 01 Well, you know, moms, they're always going to defend their children.
20:34 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, how hard would it be for a mother to come to terms with their child, son or daughter, being a murderer and doing all these really horrible things? That, you know, police officers or prosecutors are saying that they did.
20:55 Speaker 01 You certainly wouldn't want to admit it. Cause in a sense, you could say, you could say reflects on yourself.
21:02 Speaker 00 And I'm sure a lot of mothers of murderers do that. They go back and say, "Did I do something wrong? What could I have done different? Was it something I did that pushed him or her into doing this?" Most of the time I would say, no. Now, we have covered quite a few serial killers whose moms have not been the greatest influence.
21:25 Speaker 01 That's true.
21:26 Speaker 00 Or dads.
21:27 Speaker 01 And they've even said in some interviews, their parents are the
21:31 Speaker 00 Reason.
21:32 Speaker 01 They are the way they are.
21:33 Speaker 00 Yeah. But by and large, I think most people who kill, it's not because of their mom. Right? Their mom didn't do something so horrible, it caused them to kill.
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24:11 Speaker 00 Both James and his father pleaded guilty to manufacturing marijuana. Their other charges were dismissed. In November, James was sentenced to a year in prison with credit for 118 days served and 30 days suspended. Upon completion of a drug program, during sentencing, it was noted that he had a history in the court system. And I don't know why these guys wouldn't plead guilty to that charge. You know, especially the younger James. He's facing a much bigger battle.
24:45 Speaker 01 Sure.
24:46 Speaker 00 And if you've already spent 118 days in prison and you're getting 30 days suspended. Okay. What do you got? Six months or so?
24:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not much time.
24:58 Speaker 00 He's going to be in there anyway. You know, waiting on this trial. Former attorney Dean Ancooney said James, his father and his mother had medical marijuana cards and were authorized to grow 12 plants each, but they had 52 plants at their home. They claim they grew additional plants because their initial 36 plants were unsuccessful.
25:24 Speaker 01 Those over there, they're no good. Those didn't really take very good, so we're not using those.
25:32 Speaker 00 But I mean, you know, we joked about it earlier. He is making a pretty good point. Okay, you're allowed to have 36. You have 52, which technically is
25:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:45 Speaker 00 above the limit, but it's not like, you know, they had a thousand plants.
25:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, like big time producing extra plants.
25:53 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, and when you talk about distributing, okay. Well, how much are you really distributing if you only have X number of plants more than you're supposed to? Now, they may not have been smoking any of it and distributing at all. I don't know.
26:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, but you're technically, he's saying they're allowed to have the 36. So is there that much coming off of those other plants that?
26:18 Speaker 00 Well, they don't, not enough to have a nationwide, you know, drug
26:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:23 Speaker 00 pushing system.
26:24 Speaker 01 No.
26:24 Speaker 00 Obviously. James Van Callis's preliminary hearing for the murder case began on December 15th, 2014. Prosecutors added a kidnapping charge that day. But, you know, let's go back to the drug charges for a minute. I just wonder, you know, did they have the younger James Van Callis on their radar for this murder? And did that play into the drug charges in any way?
26:58 Speaker 01 Potentially.
26:59 Speaker 00 You could get him behind bars right away.
27:02 Speaker 01 Sure.
27:03 Speaker 00 While they were still investigating him and trying to shore up the murder charges.
27:08 Speaker 01 It's a way to keep them within reach.
27:11 Speaker 00 And off the streets.
27:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:13 Speaker 00 Potentially. Witness Mary Stein testified that April gave her a tight, tense smile as she passed her on the Macomb Orchard Trail around 6:25 PM on July 24th, 2014. April was walking away from a man on a motorcycle who looked angry. This man was later identified as James Van Callis. She and her husband thought it was a pretty strange encounter. The following day, Stein heard that a girl was murdered on the trail, so she called the police. And, you know, I'll go back to that description. A tight, tense smile. And I'm taking that to mean like she knew something was wrong.
27:58 Speaker 01 Right.
27:59 Speaker 00 By the way, you know, this girl was acting, the look on her face. And then over two weeks later, she saw James Van Callis on the news and called the police again to report, that's the person who I saw on the trail. In court, she said she had no doubts about her identification. Two additional witnesses testified to seeing April on the trail with a man on a motorcycle. One of them identified James Van Callis.
28:28 Speaker 01 I mean, the prosecution's loving this.
28:30 Speaker 00 Well, you have two positive identifications.
28:34 Speaker 00 And I think that would go a long way with a jury. FBI agent Matthew Zentz testified that he used April's phone data to reconstruct her route along the trail using a fitness app that April had opened while she was walking. He tracked her route and pinned the location where April sent her last text. Minutes after she sent the text, her phone remained in the spot where her body was found for about 15 minutes. Three calls were made from this location. The phone then moved away at a high rate of speed, around 30 miles per hour, to the area where her backpack was found.
29:16 Speaker 00 And then it stopped in a rural residential area where her phone was found on July 25th. And, and this is the type of technology that we have today and have had for a while now.
29:29 Speaker 01 Right.
29:30 Speaker 00 You think about all of the data that is tracked on your cell phone. And it's quite a bit from location. This is aside from cell towers and what cell tower your phone is pinging off of and, and all of that stuff. There's just so many apps on our phones these days that track our location, where we've been, where we are at any given point in time.
30:00 Speaker 01 You're very, very correct there. I mean, I have a fitness app on my phone that I know it will tell you.
30:07 Speaker 00 That you have not worked out in a long time.
30:10 Speaker 01 It's like, hey, get off here. Get off your ass.
30:16 Speaker 00 No, but I get you, right? It'll, it'll track a walk.
30:20 Speaker 01 It will.
30:21 Speaker 00 Yeah. And then not just where you were, but probably timestamp it as well.
30:27 Speaker 01 Oh, it does. Yeah.
30:28 Speaker 00 And you think about how vital that type of information is in any investigation. It could be used to, you know, tie someone to a murder. It could also potentially be used to clear someone.
30:42 Speaker 01 That's true.
30:43 Speaker 00 Yeah. Officer Philip Newmeyer testified that April was found 20 to 30 feet from the edge of the trail in a drainage ditch. Her clothing was pulled down and she had abrasions on her neck and face as well as bruises and swelling. Some of her teeth appeared to be dislodged.
31:03 Speaker 01 From being hit so hard.
31:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, we talked about it. The prosecution theorized that, you know, he hit her with his motorcycle helmet.
31:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:14 Speaker 00 That's just brutal to think about.
31:16 Speaker 01 It really is.
31:17 Speaker 00 James Van Callas was bound over for trial on December 16th. During the second day of the hearing, James's ex-girlfriend, Crystal Stadler testified that on the night of the murder, she woke up to find James cleaning his shoes. He was using a sock and hand sanitizer to scrub off what he said was oil. First of all, I very rarely clean my shoes. Now, I don't get them dirty because I don't leave the house a lot.
31:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're just down here.
31:48 Speaker 00 That's, that's one thing. I don't wear shoes a lot, but I mean, how strange would it be for someone to wake up and find their partner cleaning their shoes?
32:00 Speaker 01 Unless it's something they do all the time and you're used to it, you're gonna be like, what's going on?
32:06 Speaker 00 Assuming this is not something you've ever seen them do before at that time of night. And, and what's with the sock and hand sanitizer?
32:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I know you have this other thing you do with a sock and hand sanitizer, but you know, again, what does it have to do with what he's doing?
32:23 Speaker 00 With cleaning a shoe?
32:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:25 Speaker 00 Right. That doesn't make any sense. Crystal testified that when he came to bed, he said that he messed up and he needs me to stay by his side. Okay. Well, yeah, I think if your partner says that to you, you, you gotta be thinking pretty ominous thoughts.
32:43 Speaker 01 And I think if he was honest and told her why he messed up, she'd be like, there's the door.
32:50 Speaker 00 Exactly. Don't let it hit your ass on the way out. A key piece of evidence in this case were the shoe prints on April's body. Investigators were unable to find the shoes they believed Van Callis was wearing on the day of the murder. Crystal testified that he was wearing Jordans. But Michigan State Police Sergeant Raymond Peckman said James told the police he was wearing K-Swiss shoes on July 24th.
33:18 Speaker 01 Well, I know you like Jordans.
33:20 Speaker 00 I do like Jordans and I remember K-Swiss kind of being in vogue when I was in high school. I don't, I don't know if I ever owned any. I didn't know that men, a lot of men were wearing K-Swiss shoes in let's say the 2014 timeframe. Maybe they were and maybe they still do today. I don't know.
33:41 Speaker 01 I couldn't afford K-Swiss. I wore the off brand.
33:44 Speaker 00 J-Swiss?
33:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
33:46 Speaker 00 Yeah. I knew it was gonna be something like that. How much did you get made fun of is the question. Husky jeans and J-Swiss?
33:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:56 Speaker 00 How well did that go together?
33:57 Speaker 01 It was a lot of fun back then.
33:59 Speaker 00 It was a good thing you were, you were a big boy.
34:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:03 Speaker 00 And could handle yourself.
34:04 Speaker 01 Now we, now we know why he carries a K-Bar.
34:07 Speaker 00 Crystal also testified that on July 25th, James asked her to tell the police he was wearing K-Swiss shoes the day before. Okay. I mean, what are you thinking if you're Crystal? I messed up. I'm gonna need you to stay by my side. Also, can you tell the police I was wearing this brand of shoes?
34:28 Speaker 01 I'm gonna need you to lie for me during this murder case.
34:32 Speaker 00 Sergeant Peckman interviewed James after the police traced a motorcycle parked at a home on Armada Ridge Road to his Wales township address. James cooperated at first and showed the police his bike, his helmet, and his K-Swiss tennis shoes. When the police returned a few days later to get a written statement from him, he was very irate on the phone. Peckman said that he was hollering at me, stating this was a witch hunt, that I could get a written statement, but it would be through his attorney.
35:07 Speaker 01 I guess he thought it would just go away.
35:10 Speaker 00 You mean, if he showed them his bike, his helmet, his shoes? Yeah, maybe. I'm kind of thinking that, you know, if you're going to lawyer up, is it better to do it right from the beginning? And I think the answer is yeah.
35:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure.
35:25 Speaker 00 Van Callis admitted he was in Armada on the day of the murder, but denied any involvement. The defense argued that there was no DNA evidence found on James's motorcycle helmet. Attorney Azar Sheik said, per the Times Herald, "There's nothing that has come back from any lab report on my client indicating any kind of DNA from April Millsap on him. And that would be very hard to do with the viciousness and the sort of injuries that we're just alluded to." And I think that is a pretty fair statement. You know, this sounds, as we've described, to be a very horrible attack.
36:09 Speaker 00 You would think, Gibbs, if you're hitting someone with the type of force that we believe James was with a motorcycle helmet, that there would be blood flowing. There, you would find some DNA on him.
36:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, you'd think there'd be some trace.
36:29 Speaker 00 Or on that motorcycle helmet, at the very least. Eric Servanak, a trace evidence examiner, testified that he analyzed footwear impressions at the crime scene and several shoes provided by authorities. April had shoe impressions on her chest, neck, and even above her right eye. The herringbone pattern seemed to match a pair of Jordans purchased by the police for comparison. After the hearing, prosecutor Eric Smith said neither the Jordans nor the hoodie and sweatshirt James was wearing had been found. So, you know, talking about, you know, DNA evidence, physical evidence.
37:11 Speaker 00 Was it because he got rid of everything he was wearing? He was able to to clean up very, very well? Possible.
37:21 Speaker 01 Possible.
37:22 Speaker 00 That day, Van Callas was transferred to a mental health unit. His attorney explained that he might have made a comment about being depressed because he wasn't expecting to be bound over for trial. And, you know, maybe that goes back to something that you said. You know, did he really think that if he just cooperated a little bit? You know, he showed him his bike, showed him his helmet, that he was just gonna walk away from all of this?
37:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, see, it wasn't me. This is my bike, my helmet's clean. Here's my case list, I'm good, man.
37:56 Speaker 00 And even after the preliminary hearing, it sounds like he thought he was just gonna be going home. You know, he was not going to be going to trial. But he was definitely wrong. In January 2015, it was decided that Van Callas would be evaluated for competency and criminal responsibility. In March of that year, he was declared competent to stand trial.
38:22 Speaker 01 But you know what? You have to go through that exercise.
38:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, you do sometimes, especially if there's even an inkling that he might not be competent. I don't know what that inkling was other than his attorney saying, maybe he was depressed. But during a September hearing, a judge ruled in favor of a defense motion asking for crime scene photos. Prosecutors argued that these photos violated child pornography laws because April's clothing was removed by her attacker. And I thought this was really strange. Normally, you know, prosecutors wanna put in or get admitted all the crime scene photos. That shows the brutality.
39:10 Speaker 00 It shows, you know, what this person did to the victim.
39:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:15 Speaker 00 But here, they're fighting it. And it's the defense that's putting forth the motion asking for crime scene photos. Well, it came out that the defense wanted an expert to review the photos to determine what level of rigor mortis had set in, which might conflict with the prosecution's sequence of events.
39:37 Speaker 01 Well, if they can prove the timing is not lining up the way the prosecution has stated, that would benefit their client.
39:45 Speaker 00 Jury selection began on January 14th, 2016. In opening statements, the prosecution argued that the murder was random and occurred after April rebuffed Van Callis's sexual advances on the trail. He hit her on the head with his motorcycle helmet, dragged her in the woods, stomped on her and beat her to death. He pulled her clothing off because he intended on raping her. The prosecution presented 188 exhibits, none of which included DNA evidence, fingerprint, hair, or fibers.
40:21 Speaker 01 It's a lot of exhibits, though.
40:23 Speaker 00 It is, but none of them are including, you know, some of the, what we think of as kind of bombshell type evidence to a jury. However, Van Callis was captured on camera on his motorcycle at an Armada gas station before the murder, and witnesses were confident. They saw him on the trail. He was also captured by an outdoor surveillance camera, riding his motorcycle past a home in Armada. At the same time, April's phone data indicated it was moving at a high rate of speed in the same area.
40:58 Speaker 01 Well, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
41:01 Speaker 00 It doesn't, but here again, what you and I are talking about a lot these days is circumstantial evidence, and a lot of cases are tried on a great deal of circumstantial evidence. But you know, then it's up to the jury to make of that evidence what they will.
41:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:24 Speaker 00 I think it's much different when you have some type of forensics expert say, okay, we found this, this and this, and the DNA says there's a one in a trillion chance that it's anyone other than this person. You know, this is more, hey, he was in the area. Hey, we got him on camera at a gas station. You've got the phone data. I'm not saying it's not enough. I wouldn't call it a slam dunk. Deputy Medical Examiner Mary Petrangelo testified that April suffered 48 injuries, most of them in the head and neck area.
42:07 Speaker 01 Most likely from the helmet and from the stomping.
42:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, she suffered blunt force injuries. She had bruises, scrapes and bleeding around the eyes, jaw, neck, the inside of her head and injuries to her trachea. And I always think about the family, you know, as you go through these trials and the prosecution has to lay out, they have to show the jury, right? Exactly what happened to the victim. But how hard would that be for the family who's sitting there?
42:40 Speaker 01 Be really rough. I'd just want to get up and beat the guy's ass.
42:44 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, if you thought he did it and the prosecution obviously thinks he did it.
42:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:50 Speaker 00 It would be hard to contain yourself, but you're already going through the grief of losing her and now you're learning exactly what happened to your daughter. I can only imagine how terrible that must be. The same herringbone pattern appeared on her face, neck and upper chest, which authorities said were shoe prints. The deputy medical examiner agreed that the pattern was consistent with a shoe print, which indicated someone stood on April's neck. Amanda Police Chief Howard Smith testified that a few tips pertaining to Van Callas related to the composite sketch.
43:31 Speaker 00 Another person said they hadn't seen Van Callas ride his motorcycle in a while, most likely because the authorities had it at that time.
43:44 Speaker 00 Smith testified that authorities canvassed every neighborhood in the village. April's backpack was found during this search. A resident with security cameras turned over all his video footage, including a video that showed a motorcycle passing by the home around 6:30 PM on July 24. Smith told the jury, he ordered a pair of Nike shoes in Van Callas's socks to see if they matched the imprints on April's neck. Lab tests on the tread pattern could not be excluded. Again, we've said it, right? They didn't have the exact shoes, but it was said they were very similar to the pair Van Callas often wore.
44:28 Speaker 00 And I think if you're on the jury, okay, it's known that this guy wears Jordans. Where are these Jordans? Why all of a sudden does he not have them?
44:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:40 Speaker 00 I think that's a thought that would be running through my mind.
44:43 Speaker 01 Same here.
44:44 Speaker 00 James's ex-girlfriend, Crystal Stadler, testified that she found wanted up human hair and grass in a pocket of the hoodie James wore on July 24, 2014. She found it when she was washing his clothes. So a few days later, she put the hair and grass on the sink and never saw them again. The hoodie disappeared, as well as the black and white Nike shoes he was wearing when he left on his motorcycle to go to his brother's house in Armada on July 24. And we talked about it, right? She did testify about waking up to find James cleaning the shoes. So again, put yourself in the mind of a juror.
45:29 Speaker 00 This woman knows what he was wearing that day.
45:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:33 Speaker 00 And she is saying, I don't know what happened to the hoodie, but it disappeared. His shoes disappeared.
45:40 Speaker 01 Two to two together.
45:42 Speaker 00 What do you get?
45:43 Speaker 01 More than four.
45:44 Speaker 00 No, just joking. But not only did the shoes go missing, but so did a shoebox that held Crystal's important papers. The defense emphasized that there was no forensic evidence linking James to the murder. They questioned Crystal's testimony, what she told the police during interviews. Crystal admitted she was nervous about testifying and might not have told the police everything at first because she was scared of James, who she said was controlling and abusive.
46:15 Speaker 01 Well, and I understand that, right? If you know that if he finds out that you're cooperating, that you could end up paying the price for that.
46:25 Speaker 00 It's a tough decision.
46:26 Speaker 01 Sure, and you might hold back.
46:28 Speaker 00 Well, let's face it, testifying in a trial is pretty nerve wracking on its own.
46:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:35 Speaker 00 And then you add in testifying against a boyfriend who you say is controlling and abusive? I can see why, you know, she might have held back a little bit. The defense also argued that GPS timestamps from April's phone were not an exact match to the times given by the cellphone carrier. The prosecution presented evidence about the search of a computer from the Van Callis home. Some of the searches were how to have sex with a girl, what to do when a girl says she has a boyfriend, and how to attract younger women. And these were all searches made in the months leading up to the murder.
47:20 Speaker 01 Very strange and disturbing.
47:21 Speaker 00 Very strange. How to have sex with a girl? What does that mean? I mean, obviously, this is a guy who had a girlfriend.
47:29 Speaker 01 Right.
47:29 Speaker 00 I'm assuming at some point, he was experienced sexually. So that leads me to believe when he says girl, he means girl.
47:41 Speaker 01 Exactly. Not another woman, girl.
47:44 Speaker 00 And that kind of dovetails into how to attract younger women. The searches were made while Crystal lived in the home, but she testified that she wasn't allowed to use the computer or cellphone and communicated with people via Facebook on her tablet. She left the house on July 29th and did not return.
48:08 Speaker 00 James's brother Donald Van Callis testified that James asked him to delete all their text communication in July 2014. He refused to do it. All right. I know I've asked you before, Gibbs, but you know, you have a couple of brothers and what would be running through your mind if one of your brothers texted you and said, hey, or just asked you, said, hey, please delete all of our text communication?
48:36 Speaker 01 That'd be a little concerned, like, why?
48:39 Speaker 00 What have you done this time?
48:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:41 Speaker 00 And, and obviously there was a reason he refused to do it. Donald testified that he texted home to James at 6:44 PM on July 24th to let him know he was getting close to home. James called him several times while he was working that evening. James was coming to his house to get money for dog food. James rode his motorcycle to the home and stayed for about an hour. Donald gave his brother $60 before he left. He didn't see any blood on his brother's clothing or motorcycle. Two days later, the police came to Donald's house. He wanted to help and was willing to show the police his phone, but not give
49:23 Speaker 00 it to them. And then later he told the police he lost his phone, which turned out not to be true.
49:30 Speaker 01 Not very credible.
49:31 Speaker 00 No, you lose credibility when you say things that are proven to be false. But, you know, this sounds to me like a guy who, at least in some level, is trying to protect his brother. You know, he refused to delete all the text messages, but when it came down to it, you know, he said to the police, yeah, you can look at my phone, but I'm not giving it to you. And then later he must've changed his mind because he said he lost it.
50:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't have it anymore. I don't know what happened to it.
50:05 Speaker 00 At trial, Donald was asked about James's shoe collection. He said his brother owned 15 to 20 pairs and was very meticulous about taking care of them. All right, I might rub some people the wrong way here, but I don't see why a man needs 20 pairs of shoes.
50:23 Speaker 01 Oh, I know guys that have 50 pairs of shoes. Not me. I mean, you know, I have like three or four pairs.
50:30 Speaker 00 Right. That's about what a guy needs. Now, there are guys who collect sneakers.
50:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
50:37 Speaker 00 Basketball shoes. I get that.
50:40 Speaker 01 Sure.
50:41 Speaker 00 But to have 20 pairs of shoes that you're actively wearing.
50:45 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. I don't see that.
50:48 Speaker 00 No, I don't get it.
50:49 Speaker 01 I get the collector side, you know?
50:51 Speaker 00 Michigan State Police Crime Lab expert Ed Survenak testified that he was asked to compare 11 pairs of shoes to the shoe impressions on April's body. He eliminated 10 pairs. A pair of size 12 Jordan Flight, the power shoes, similar to the ones authorities believe James owned, could not be eliminated. But he also couldn't say that they were an exact match. So as a jury, I don't know what you make of this because he's saying, well, I can't exclude it, but I can't with 100% certainty say it's a match.
51:32 Speaker 00 And we can't even say that for sure, this is what he was wearing because we don't have.
51:38 Speaker 01 Right. So it's kind of like, we think this is the shoe, but it might not be the shoe.
51:44 Speaker 00 James chose not to testify and the defense didn't call any witnesses. In closing statements, attorney Azar Sheik argued that there was nothing tying James to the murder and there was no evidence linking him to April after a review of cellphone data. And I completely understand why the defense would not want James to testify. You know, most of the time they don't, but especially in this case where.
52:14 Speaker 00 You know, again, a lot of the evidence is circumstantial. I think the last thing you want is your client opened up to question. You know, it seems as though the defense in calling no witnesses, they're basically saying, hey, the state's not proving their case. We don't have to do anything.
52:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, we feel pretty good about where we're sitting right now.
52:39 Speaker 00 Assistant prosecutor William Cadalda countered that cell phone data put James in the area around the time of the murder and witnesses identified him as the man on the trail. He was seen at a gas station in Armada before the murder and was caught on video driving past a home in Armada shortly after. The prosecutor also noted that testimony indicated James's motorcycle helmet was so clean, it didn't even have his DNA.
53:09 Speaker 01 It's very clean.
53:10 Speaker 00 On it. The prosecutor showed the helmets to the jury and described how he used it to beat April before he attacked her and removed her clothing. The prosecutor said it took April about 10 minutes to die. And I'm sure this was something that was really emphasized.
53:30 Speaker 01 Sure.
53:31 Speaker 00 Right? You want the jury to feel for this victim. In 10 minutes of abuse and torture.
53:41 Speaker 01 Suffering.
53:42 Speaker 00 Suffering is going to go a long way in your favor. Finally, the prosecutor informed the jury of a creepy video retrieved from James's cell phone. Not only was he filming a 15 year old girl in a car next to him, but he was also wearing the missing shoes.
54:03 Speaker 01 Oh.
54:04 Speaker 00 Okay. You don't have the shoes, but you have him wearing them in a video.
54:09 Speaker 01 So we know you used to have the shoes.
54:12 Speaker 00 And why all of a sudden do you not have them along with the hoodie?
54:18 Speaker 01 And what the hell are you doing taping a 15 year old?
54:20 Speaker 00 And I'm sure you had some dads on that jury.
54:24 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
54:25 Speaker 00 That probably weren't happy about that fact. William Cataldo told the jury that April could have been anybody's daughter. And that's a true statement. But what is its intent?
54:37 Speaker 01 Of him saying that?
54:38 Speaker 00 Yeah.
54:39 Speaker 01 Well, I think you want to have the jury put their mindset that that could have been my daughter.
54:45 Speaker 00 Right. If you let this guy off, next time it could be your daughter.
54:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:50 Speaker 00 On February 8th, 2016, James Van Callas was found guilty of first degree murder, felony murder, kidnapping, and assault with intent to commit sexual penetration. On March 30th, he was sentenced to life in prison.
55:07 Speaker 01 Good.
55:08 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, if he's guilty, to me, that is a more than fitting sentence. But like I said, I think for the jury, this had to be a little bit of a tough one. They're not dealing with a lot of physical evidence. Now, there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence. And obviously, Gibbs, that was enough to get them beyond the issue of reasonable doubt. Van Callas maintained his innocence at the hearing. He argued there was no evidence. He committed the crime and no witnesses to positively identify him. He said, as quoted by the Detroit Free Press, "This is a sad chain of events
55:51 Speaker 00 that somehow I'm wrapped up in. I don't know her. I've never met her. I've never seen her." He called the case a fraud, arguing that he did not receive the requested discovery and that photos of April were different at trial. He claimed he wasn't able to properly defend himself. Now, what else is he gonna say?
56:12 Speaker 01 Of course.
56:13 Speaker 00 You know, he's not gonna come out and say, Yeah, I tried my best, but they got me and you know, they did a good job and I actually did all the things they said I did. April's mother, Jennifer Millsap, said in her victim impact statement, per the Times Herald, "You, James, are a damn thief. You stole my beautiful daughter's life and you stole the rest of mine. My life has totally changed since April was killed. My life will never be the same. I will always miss April and will continue to hold her in my heart. I never thought this could happen to my daughter or to me."
56:52 Speaker 01 Unimaginable to go through something like that.
56:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, but I really want to focus on her words. Yeah, he did steal a beautiful daughter's life.
57:02 Speaker 01 He did.
57:03 Speaker 00 But he also wrecked and changed a lot of other people's lives associated
57:11 Speaker 01 Sure did.
57:12 Speaker 00 with her. And you know, you have Jennifer saying, "My life will never be the same." There is absolutely no doubt about that. When your, you know, young son or daughter is murdered, your life can never be the same. It doesn't mean that you can't and won't have moments of joy and happiness, but you know, most people say, there's not a day that goes by that they don't think about their murdered loved one.
57:42 Speaker 01 I would think that'd be a tough, tough road to get back to any sense of happiness.
57:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely. James's mother, Brenda, shouted as he left court, "James, we love you. We'll get you out. We will." She told the press that "The police better keep working because they have the wrong person and they know it." So two mothers at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Now, they both love their children.
58:15 Speaker 01 Sure. Yeah, I get that.
58:17 Speaker 00 One who's lost a daughter believes 100% in this man's guilt, but his mother believes 100% in his innocence.
58:28 Speaker 01 And to her, she lost a son.
58:30 Speaker 00 And she'll never stop fighting to get him out. The Michigan Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction and sentencing on January 9th, 2018. Van Callas then filed an application for lead to appeal with the Michigan Supreme Court, which was denied in September 2018. The Michigan Supreme Court did remand the case back to the Court of Appeals to consider whether James's trial attorney was ineffective. But in December 2018, the State Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction again. Van Callas then filed a second application for lead to appeal to the Michigan Supreme Court. Van Callas argued his attorney was ineffective for failing to challenge the admissibility
59:15 Speaker 00 of computer-generated animation, failing to object to the prosecution's closing argument, and failing to present a crime scene expert or private investigator at trial. James's application was rejected in July 2019. Again, I don't blame a person for using all the routes available to appeal. I also don't blame some of the courts for rejecting those appeals.
59:44 Speaker 01 Sure, yeah.
59:45 Speaker 00 You know, you got your day in court, you got a jury of your peers, they heard everything.
59:53 Speaker 01 They did.
59:53 Speaker 00 Now, do they get it right 100% of the time? No, there's no way that they can. It's not an infallible system.
1:00:02 Speaker 01 No, they make mistakes, we know that.
1:00:04 Speaker 00 But they do their best. And there was a lot of compelling circumstantial evidence that he and he alone was the person who had the opportunity to commit this crime.
1:00:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, you have eyewitnesses.
1:00:22 Speaker 00 Seeing him there.
1:00:24 Speaker 01 On the trail.
1:00:25 Speaker 00 But no eyewitnesses seeing him do it.
1:00:28 Speaker 01 No.
1:00:29 Speaker 00 And, you know, like we said. I think the downside to the prosecution's case was that they didn't have the forensic evidence that a lot of juries, especially nowadays, like, right, DNA, hair, fibers, you know, show me all the things that I see on CSI and all the television shows that prove without a doubt that this person did it.
1:00:56 Speaker 01 Hey, if he didn't do it, what a tragic event for him and his family.
1:00:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:01:00 Speaker 01 You know, but if he did do it and the jury believes he did, then he's right where he needs to be.
1:01:07 Speaker 00 Yeah. And again, I don't know the exact makeup, the exact percentage, but I would say a majority of cases center around circumstantial evidence.
1:01:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, sure.
1:01:20 Speaker 00 But here's the question, why didn't they have any physical or forensic evidence? Right? Is it because he got rid of the shoes he was wearing that day? He got rid of the hoodie he was wearing. He cleaned up his motorcycle helmet to the point where not if, not even his DNA was on it.
1:01:43 Speaker 01 Which you would think would be impossible. I mean, I walk in here and leave DNA every time I'm here.
1:01:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think we, you know, we are all leaving DNA all over the place. You know, some of us different types, but you know, it's one of those things where if you put a helmet on your head, there's hair, there's skin cells, there's all kinds of things.
1:02:04 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:02:05 Speaker 00 That are going to be inside that helmet. Why would someone clean the helmet? Maybe that's their routine. They do it every so often. But when you do it right after someone is murdered and you're the one put on that trail, then it takes on, I think, a bigger level of significance. It doesn't just seem random.
1:02:29 Speaker 01 No, pretty suspicious.
1:02:30 Speaker 00 It seems like you did it on purpose and for a very specific reason. So they didn't have all the forensic evidence, but they did have strong circumstantial evidence tying James Van Kauw to the crime scene. And they had these really confident eyewitnesses who felt certain he was the suspect. So. You know, when it was all said and done, the jury heard everything. And you know, like I always say, you gotta go with the jury unless it's proven later on that they just absolutely got it wrong.
1:03:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, the jury found him guilty. The court of appeals rejected his appeal and the Supreme Court didn't even want to hear the case.
1:03:12 Speaker 00 Which is not very unusual, right?
1:03:14 Speaker 01 Right.
1:03:14 Speaker 00 State Supreme Courts and especially the, the US Supreme Court, they hear such a small fraction of a percent of, of all the cases that are put before them.
1:03:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:29 Speaker 00 But no doubt, this was a very brutal and devastating murder. A 14 year old girl lost her life and you know, you had family and friends who were devastated. And like we said, their lives will never be the same.
1:03:45 Speaker 01 No.
1:03:46 Speaker 00 That's the aftermath. And I think it's much more wide reaching than we can ever realize. You think about, yeah, I get it. She was only 14 years old, but how many people had she touched in her lifetime?
1:04:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:03 Speaker 00 Probably a lot. And all those people are devastated. But that's it for our episode on James Van Callis. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out?
1:04:11 Speaker 01 Let's hear them.
1:04:12 Speaker 02 Hey, this is Lori from outside of Kansas City, Missouri. Again, I am re-listening to all your podcasts and I was listening to the one about Lawrence Singleton who cut that poor girl's arms off. And you said at the beginning, he didn't have any major crimes against him, just like, uh, contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Well, I bet you back in the seventies, that was something serious like raping a teenager. And they got it down to contributing to the delinquency of a minor because, you know, they're idiots. But. Love you both. Have a great day and keep your own time ticking.
1:04:52 Speaker 00 All right. Thanks for the voicemail. And that's a great take. It could be.
1:04:55 Speaker 01 Good.
1:04:56 Speaker 00 We've seen a lot of strange things from the seventies and that timeframe.
1:05:01 Speaker 01 We sure have.
1:05:03 Speaker 00 But I guess probably while we were doing the episode, when you think of contributing to the delinquency of a minor, you think like someone gave them some alcohol or something like that. But in the 1970s, it could have been way worse. And, you know, he pled down to that.
1:05:22 Speaker 01 Exactly. Yeah.
1:05:23 Speaker 00 So great take.
1:05:25 Speaker 03 Hi, my name is Megan. I'm from Gloucester, Virginia, and I'm calling in because I was just listening to the Bernard Finch and Carol Tragoff intro. And I thought it was funny when you said you had never heard of the strange turn of events when the husband and wife married and their former exes ended up marrying as well. And I thought it was a fun trivia fact that in modern day history, this is actually exactly what Shania Twain did when she and her husband divorced. She ended up marrying the ex of her ex husband's former wife. So I thought that was a funny trivia fact. And it was the first thing I thought of when you were talking about it and said you had never heard of such an incident happen. So remember to watch your back and keep your own time ticking.
1:06:09 Speaker 00 All right. Another great voicemail. I did not know that.
1:06:12 Speaker 01 I didn't either. And I don't know why Shania didn't ask me.
1:06:15 Speaker 00 I don't either, because I'll be honest with you. I was in absolute love with Shania Twain.
1:06:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:21 Speaker 00 When I was like in high school or, you know, before my, I have met my wife, obviously. You know, 18, 19. I don't remember exactly when she was big. I felt like I was in high school or just out of high school.
1:06:32 Speaker 01 Been big for a long time, man.
1:06:33 Speaker 00 Yeah. But she was, uh, she was not only an amazing entertainer, but, uh, she was gorgeous.
1:06:41 Speaker 01 She was.
1:06:41 Speaker 00 And is.
1:06:42 Speaker 01 And still is.
1:06:42 Speaker 00 Yeah. I saw a documentary about her and her stage fright and stuff like that.
1:06:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:48 Speaker 00 And it was, it was really interesting. But, you know, she married this guy Mutt, which I always thought was such a, Mutt Lang, I think was his name.
1:06:57 Speaker 01 Producer.
1:06:57 Speaker 00 He was famous and, but I'd always thought that was such a strange name. I did not know that after their divorce, she ended up marrying his ex wife's husband?
1:07:09 Speaker 01 Something like that.
1:07:09 Speaker 00 Or something. Yeah. I'll have to look that up.
1:07:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:13 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:07:18 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:07:19 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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