Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Irene Garza About this episode 25-year-old Irene Garza was a Texas beauty queen and schoolteacher whose murder remained unsolved for more than 50 years. Irene was last seen going into confession at her church, leading police to question the priest who was the last person to see Irene alive.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Irene Garza. The priest, John Feit, was questioned by the police at the time, but nothing ever came from it. It wasn't until the 2000s that details began to emerge about the culprit, and there were some startling revelations. A cover-up was uncovered that spanned from the church to the authorities charged with solving Irene's murder.
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Transcript 0:39 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 462 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:49 Speaker 01 I'm doing good. How about you?
0:50 Speaker 00 I am doing really well compared to the last two weeks with my back and stuff. I feel like I'm getting back to normal.
0:59 Speaker 01 That's good.
1:00 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Michelle.
1:04 Speaker 01 Hey, Michelle.
1:04 Speaker 00 Sally Goodman.
1:06 Speaker 01 Goodman. I like that name.
1:09 Speaker 00 Shirley Catherine Zeitz.
1:12 Speaker 01 Hey, Zeitz.
1:13 Speaker 00 Alyssa Metcalf.
1:14 Speaker 01 Hey, Metcalf.
1:16 Speaker 00 Metcalf?
1:19 Speaker 00 Danielle Hill.
1:20 Speaker 01 What's going on, Danielle?
1:21 Speaker 00 Alicia Ramirez.
1:23 Speaker 01 Hey, Ramirez.
1:24 Speaker 00 Bronwyn Evans jumped out to our highest level.
1:26 Speaker 01 Thanks, Bronwyn.
1:27 Speaker 00 Melissa Jansen.
1:29 Speaker 01 What's going on, Jansen?
1:29 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Jana Moody.
1:32 Speaker 01 Well, thanks, Moody.
1:33 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Cora Ryerson.
1:39 Speaker 01 Thanks, Cora.
1:40 Speaker 00 You know, when you or I mess up somebody's name, I actually think they prefer that. They seem to like that more.
1:47 Speaker 01 You think?
1:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's like a badge of honor when you get your name messed up on TCAD, I think.
1:52 Speaker 01 You mess them up a lot.
1:53 Speaker 00 I do. You never do.
1:55 Speaker 01 No, no, no.
1:56 Speaker 00 So we have a new Patreon episode that just dropped Saturday night. It's on 20 year old Karina Muller, who was brutally attacked and murdered in 1987 in Kentucky. They had a primary suspect and it was Karina's boyfriend, but he was acquitted. Yeah. A year later, then the case went cold for a long time until a confidential informant came forward claiming to know exactly what happened. So if you're on Patreon, make sure you check that out. If you're not, now's a great time to sign up. We also have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're discussing 17 year old Randy Leach,
2:37 Speaker 00 who was reported missing in 1988 after he failed to come home from a high school party. And there are a lot of rumors in this case from, you know, drug deals gone wrong, satanic cult rituals. We'll dive into all of it. All right, buddy, are you ready for this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am. We are talking about Irene Garza. 25 year old Irene Garza was a Texas beauty queen and school teacher, whose murder remained unsolved for more than 50 years. Irene was last seen going into confession at her church, leading police to question the priest, who was the last person to see Irene alive. Wow. Did you ever go to confession, by the way?
3:22 Speaker 00 Are you asking me if I've been telling your secrets? No, I have not been. Irene Garza was born on November 15th, 1934. She grew up in McAllen, Texas. She was well liked by her peers and was a distinguished student at McAllen High. She was the school's first Hispanic twirler and head drum majorette. And I've always been fascinated by. These people who can do the, the twirling, you know, throwing it really high up in the air, catching it, doing all the intricate moves. It's pretty fun to watch. Irene was the first in her family to attend college and graduate school. At Pan American College,
4:05 Speaker 00 Irene was crowned homecoming queen. In 1958, she won Miss All South Texas Sweetheart.
4:12 Speaker 01 Wow.
4:13 Speaker 00 Yeah. So, I mean, you're talking some, you know, prestigious stuff there. Irene was a second grade teacher at Thigpen Elementary. She loved her job and was devoted to her students. She used part of her salary to buy supplies and clothes for the children.
4:31 Speaker 01 I know that doesn't fall too far from the tree for you.
4:33 Speaker 00 No. Over the years, which there have been many, my wife's been teaching for, you know, 20 plus years, we have spent a lot of our own money to buy supplies and clothes for, you know, children in a number of her classes. You know, when you see a second grader, a fourth grader come to school in the middle of January with no coat, that's just something that you can't live with.
5:00 Speaker 01 No, it's hard to, hard to look at that.
5:02 Speaker 00 So she's going right out to whatever Burlington Coat Factory and she's buying coats. That's just what she does. Irene was a devout Catholic. She went to confession every Saturday and attended mass every Sunday. Irene was a beautiful young woman and it was said that young men went to church just so they could run into her.
5:23 Speaker 01 Wow. That says something, right?
5:26 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, you know, she's winning beauty pageants. So it makes sense that she was a beautiful woman and, you know, men were drawn to her.
5:36 Speaker 01 Never had anybody go to my church back in the day to run into me.
5:40 Speaker 00 Well, how many beauty pageants have you won?
5:43 Speaker 01 Zero.
5:44 Speaker 00 Well, maybe that has something to do with it. In the spring of 1960, Irene was in a good place. In April, she wrote to a friend that she was much happier than I've ever been. She wrote that she was seeing two men, but she wondered if she'd ever get over her ex-boyfriend.
6:03 Speaker 01 Some people just can't get over their exes.
6:06 Speaker 00 No, for some, that's a hard thing to do. Irene also wrote that she was elected Secretary of the PTA. In her words, "This may not sound like much, but to me, it means a great deal. It means I'm overcoming my terrible shyness and becoming sure of myself." Irene also wrote about her faith. She said, "Remember the last time we talked? I told you I was afraid of death. Well, I think I'm cured. You see, I've been going to communion and Mass daily, and you can't imagine the courage and faith and happiness it has given."
6:40 Speaker 01 Sounds like she's got some confidence.
6:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, and it really does. Sound like she is in a good place. She's a very happy person. On April 16th, 1960, the day before Easter, Irene visited Sacred Heart Catholic Church in McAllen to go to confession. She left home in her family's car around 6:30 PM, promising she'd be back soon. A parishioner saw Irene crossing herself as she entered church. Another saw her kneeling by herself in a pew. A third recalled Irene asking if she could step ahead of her in the confession line because she was running late. Others said she stepped out of line as if she was leaving.
7:25 Speaker 00 Irene's father reported her missing on Easter Sunday after she failed to come home. Her car was found parked down the street from the church. Irene's parents and investigators spoke to 27-year-old Father John Feit, a visiting priest. Feit had recently finished seminary training in San Antonio and was completing a year of pastoral training with his order, the missionary oblates of Mary Immaculate. Parishioners thought Feit was polite but aloof and a bit of a loner. Feit said he took Irene's confession in the rectory of Sacred Heart the night before. At the time, a face-to-face confession would be highly unusual.
8:10 Speaker 01 I always thought they were side by side in those little boxes.
8:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, there's a reason for the boxes and the kind of obscuring of the faces and all that.
8:23 Speaker 01 I always thought you needed to have like a little voice box thing though, too, right? Because if you go to the same church...
8:31 Speaker 00 Somebody's gonna recognize your voice.
8:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, I get it. But what this meant was that Father Feit was one of the last people to see Irene before she went missing. Two days after Irene went missing, one of her shoes was found by the side of the road, her purse was found up the road. And then on April 21st, Irene's body was found face down in an irrigation canal in McAllen. She was fully dressed except for her shoes and underwear. Her blouse had been unbuttoned. Irene's autopsy revealed that she was raped while unconscious, beaten and suffocated. Her face was badly bruised, and she had two black eyes.
9:15 Speaker 00 The state of decomposition suggested she'd been dead for a little less than four days, raising the possibility that she was held captive for up to a day. According to CNN, detectives drained the canal. A couple of weeks later, they found a green Kodak slide viewer, and a candelabra from Sacred Heart. So no doubt, I mean, we're painting a very disturbing scene here, and it was, right? This was a vicious murder. On top of that, Irene was sexually assaulted. You have this Father John Feit, who was, you know, most likely the last person to have seen her
9:59 Speaker 00 alive. But then they find this Kodak slide viewer and a candelabra that was said to be from the church.
10:09 Speaker 01 There could be some potentially valuable clues in that.
10:13 Speaker 00 Possibly. Authorities turned to the public, asking for help and identifying the owner of the slide viewer. Two days later, Father John Feit wrote a note admitting it was his. But he didn't explain how it wound up in the canal.
10:29 Speaker 01 Okay, hey, that's mine. Give it back.
10:33 Speaker 00 Well, and here's a guy who was already on police radar, but He became a stronger suspect when police learned he was suspected of attacking another woman three weeks before Irene was killed. On March 23rd, 1960, 20-year-old Maria America Guerra was attacked inside Sacred Heart Church in Edinburgh, about 12 miles from Sacred Heart in McCown. In the late afternoon, Maria noticed a man in a blue and white car watching her outside the church. Once inside, she saw a young man with dark hair and horn-rimmed glasses, sitting alone in one of the pews.
11:16 Speaker 00 She told police, as quoted by Texas Monthly, "The thought that it was the same man I saw earlier entered my mind, but being in the house of God, I dismissed any thoughts of fear of foul play. I went to the altar and knelt at the communion rail to pray my rosary. And that's when the man grabbed her from behind and tried to put a rag over her mouth. She bit down on his fingers until she drew blood. He threw her to the wall and she ran outside." And Maria picked John Fite out of a police lineup. Wow. Father Fite had visible scratches on the backs of his hands when he was photographed.
11:56 Speaker 00 Father Joseph O'Brien, the assistant pastor of Sacred Heart Church, had also noticed the scratches shortly after Irene Garza disappeared. But Fite said he was locked out of his home and scratched his hands while trying to climb in through a window. So, you know, things aren't looking good for Father Fite. Not at all. Last one to see Irene alive, you have him admitting this Kodak slide viewer was his. And then they learn he had attacked another woman just weeks before Irene went missing.
12:34 Speaker 01 Kind of setting up a little bit of an MO for him.
12:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, but you really can't say enough about Maria, right? She's attacked, she fights back, she draws blood, she's able to get away. Now, my question is, how much did Father Fite, if he was involved in Irene's disappearance, learn from this failed attempt? Hey, I'm gonna do things differently because this didn't work out.
13:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, and maybe there was other attempts in between.
13:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, because that's a common question that that comes up. We just happen to know about this one. How many others were there? Fite had his first formal interview with police in May 1960. At first, he gave different stories about where Irene gave her confession, but he eventually said he heard it in the rectory, next to the church. He and Irene left the rectory between 7:15 and 7:20 PM. Afterwards, he heard more confessions for several hours in the sanctuary and returned to the rectory twice for a smoke break. He said he accidentally broke his glasses because he had a nervous habit of playing around with them while hearing confession.
13:51 Speaker 00 At 10:00 PM, he drove to his residence in the pastoral house in San Juan, about five miles away, to get his spare glasses. He was locked out of the house. Father Fite said, because of this, I had to make my entrance through a second floor balcony, propping up a wooden roadblock or barricade against the side of the house and climbing it in this fashion. While entering the house in this way, I scraped the back of my right hand slightly and the index finger and middle finger of my left hand more severely on the brick wall.
14:25 Speaker 01 Well, either that happened, or he rehearsed exactly what he wanted to say to cover himself.
14:30 Speaker 00 Or he sustained these injuries and then had to come up with something, right? To explain them away. Fite said he was troubled when he learned the woman he talked to in the rectory had gone missing. He was busy on Easter Sunday. He did two morning masses, a late afternoon mass, and two baptisms.
14:51 Speaker 00 In the evening, he returned to church to pick up his suit and collar. A priest asked him if he would speak to Irene's parents, who had arrived at the church. According to Fite, they wanted to know if I had perhaps said anything which might have upset or disturbed their daughter. I replied in the negative. My talk with the girl's parents had disturbed me. Perhaps I had said something unintentionally that might have upset this girl. At any rate, it seemed that no one had seen or heard from her since she left the rectory that Saturday night. Since she talked to me, I was worried and drove around aimlessly for a while.
15:29 Speaker 00 But Fite never did explain how his slide view got in the canal where Irene's body was found.
15:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think you would want to tell the police. Well, it was here and then I came in and it was gone. Or I lent it to her so she had it in her possession. Or one day I was driving around and I tossed it into that area.
15:54 Speaker 00 But it's not just the slide viewer, right? This candelabra is pretty interesting as well.
16:01 Speaker 01 It is.
16:02 Speaker 00 Fite was brought in again the next day for questioning regarding the Maria Guerra case. He acknowledged stopping by Sacred Heart in Edinburgh on March 23rd to talk to a priest. He said he entered the sanctuary and knelt in a back pew to say the rosary. He also admitted he was driving a blue and white car, but insisted he left Edinburgh at least an hour before the attack. He went to the pastoral house in San Juan in time to ring the 5:30 PM bell. However, several priests later said Fite didn't return in time to ring the bell and that his finger was not injured until the night of the attack.
16:44 Speaker 00 Fite had said the day before he went to Edinburgh, he got his finger caught in a mimeograph machine.
16:51 Speaker 01 Ooh, mimeograph.
16:52 Speaker 00 Something you don't hear about at all, right, anymore? Do you want to explain for the folks, Gibbs, what a mimeograph machine was back in the day?
17:05 Speaker 01 I don't know if we have time for me to go into the details of that.
17:08 Speaker 00 Too technical?
17:09 Speaker 01 Too technical.
17:09 Speaker 00 It would take too long?
17:10 Speaker 01 Yes.
17:12 Speaker 00 I mean, basically, it was an early copy machine.
17:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, right before the Ditto machine. Do you remember Ditto's?
17:20 Speaker 00 I don't know if you're saying it correctly, but no, I don't. I'm pretty sure, I mean, this was before my time, but I thought a mimeograph was like an an early device to copy something.
17:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:36 Speaker 00 The priest recalled that Fight was wearing the same clothes. Maria said her attacker was wearing. I mean, there is just nothing looking good for this guy.
17:46 Speaker 01 No, it looks, from the surface, he's guilty.
17:50 Speaker 00 Well, other than the fact that he's a priest, and, and I think by and large, priests are going to get the benefit of the doubt more so than many other people.
18:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's true, especially back in 1960.
18:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. On June 9th, 1960, Fight underwent a lie detector test. The police report noted, per CNN, in their opinion, Fight was responding in a manner that would indicate beyond doubt that he was concealing facts and had guilty knowledge. On August 5th, 1960, authorities filed assault with intent to rape charges against John Fight in the Maria Guerra case. A warrant was issued on August 6th, but Fight was nowhere to be found. He surrendered a week later. He issued a statement at the time saying, as quoted by CBS, "I am innocent of the charge for which I have been indicted.
18:46 Speaker 00 I'm not a fugitive, nor have I been a fugitive. I'm hiding from nobody because I have nothing to hide."
18:54 Speaker 01 Well, that says that.
18:56 Speaker 00 Does it? That says that. Okay. That's one of the more profound things I think you've ever said.
19:03 Speaker 01 And I'll put that on a bumper sticker.
19:05 Speaker 00 Fight claimed he checked into an out of state hospital because his nervous system was affected by the stress of his legal troubles. He said, "I wanted to try and get some rest and peace of mind. I felt that I could not take it anymore." Fight later told police he developed a fear of women around that time. Church records show that in August 1960, Fight spent two weeks in the Alexian Brothers Hospital and Dispensary, a church-run medical center in St. Louis. The church soon made a second request to send Fight back to Alexian Brothers.
19:43 Speaker 00 In a later dated September 15, 1960, missionary O'Blates of Mary Immaculate, official Reverend John A. Haley, wrote, "We are sincerely grateful for your past gracious handling of our good Father Fight, and we assure you that taking him in on the same conditions as previously will in no way jeopardize the good name of your institution or bring it any detrimental publicity." I think the mere fact that you have to say that means that there's something going on with this guy.
20:19 Speaker 01 I mean, that's the way I look at it, you know, anytime you, you get a letter from somebody saying, "Hey, good luck with this person. I'm sure they're doing you a fantastic job." They're just the best. You're thinking, "I don't know, seems a little over the top."
20:37 Speaker 00 A year later, Fight was back in court standing trial for the assault and attempted rape of Maria Guerra on September 15, 1961. The case ended in a hung jury, and I just wonder, Gibbs, how much of that had to do with the fact that this guy was a priest?
20:57 Speaker 01 I'm sure it had something to do with it, for sure.
21:00 Speaker 00 Because like you said, in 1960, I think people would have placed a lot of faith in that position. And I'm, there could have been jury members who thought, "There's no way this guy could have done this. He's a, he's a man of the cloth."
21:19 Speaker 01 And they might have felt guilty if they would. Go against him.
21:23 Speaker 00 As though they might anger the, the man upstairs.
21:26 Speaker 01 Yes.
21:27 Speaker 00 In February 1962, five months after trial, Fite was sent to Dubuque, Iowa, to stay in the New Melray Abbey monastery. In a February 8, 1962, letter from John Fite to Father Seidel, his superior with the OMI, Fite wrote, "I'm happy to be here and know in my heart that the atmosphere of peace and quiet will be most conducive to both spiritual growth and rest." New Melray is mostly isolated and the monks don't spend much time speaking, so it would be a good place for Fite to avoid gossip about his legal troubles and his suspected involvement in the murder of Irene Garza.
22:13 Speaker 00 And that was my first thought. It was like, we gotta ship this guy somewhere where he's not gonna be talking to anybody.
22:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, get him out of the spotlight.
22:24 Speaker 00 Unfortunately, it has come out over the years that some churches have done the exact same thing with some of their priests who have turned out to be predators.
22:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, ship them off.
22:38 Speaker 00 According to Thomas Doyle, a priest who serves as an expert witness in clergy abuse cases, he would be there, have no access to the outside world. They're like maximum security monasteries. And it was not uncommon. If a priest was going to be punished, they'd send them there. And why would that be? Right? The church doesn't like to have their name sullied.
23:01 Speaker 01 They don't.
23:02 Speaker 00 And I think a lot of what went on over the years was because of them. Terry McKirn, founder of Bishop Accountability, an archive and research organization that monitors abuse within the Catholic Church, told 48 Hours, "When a priest gets into trouble, then the moving begins." Some people call it the geographic solution. It was for many years, the standard way for abuse allegations to be handled. And that's kind of what we were talking about, right? And these moves were usually documented via letters. However, Reverend Steven Verbest, vocation director at New Melray for over 60 years,
23:45 Speaker 00 told 48 Hours he had no memory of Fight being there or any records reflecting his stay. Verbest also said that visiting priests with troubles such as alcoholism would sometimes stay for extended periods at the monastery guesthouse where no records were kept.
24:04 Speaker 01 Well, it's interesting to have conflicting information then.
24:07 Speaker 00 Well, he said he has no records, but that, you know, if a priest was in there for, let's say, alcoholism, maybe a record wouldn't be kept. We don't know what pretense Father Fight was sent in there on.
24:24 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
24:25 Speaker 00 Fight returned to Texas in March 1962. On March 28th, he pleaded no contest to a reduced charge of aggravated assault. He was ordered to pay a $500 fine. His defense team at the time stressed that his no contest plea was not an admission of guilt. So I have a couple of problems here. First of all, reducing the charge to aggravated assault. Now, maybe that was because they didn't think they could get a conviction, but he essentially walked away from this having only to pay a fine. That just doesn't seem right to me.
25:05 Speaker 01 That's disturbing, actually.
25:06 Speaker 00 Daryl Davis, a TV reporter covering the case for Channel 5 News, would later testify that he and other journalists were called to an off the record meeting with DA Robert Latimore. According to Davis's testimony, Latimore said prosecutors and church officials knew Fight killed Irene Garza, but in exchange for a plea in the Maria Guerra case, he would not be prosecuted for murder. Davis told 48 Hours, he said verbatim, "We know that Father Fight killed Irene Garza, and the church knows that he killed Irene Garza, so we have made some arrangements." He said, "The church is going to put him in a monastery and he'll
25:50 Speaker 00 be kept there for the rest of his life."
25:53 Speaker 01 It's like they had... So much power back then.
25:57 Speaker 00 And too much, people would say.
25:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, that they could make these type of negotiations and arrangements.
26:05 Speaker 00 And make what were really heinous acts essentially go away.
26:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:12 Speaker 00 After the plea, Fight returned to the monastery in Iowa. Now, it's unclear exactly how long he stayed there, but his writings suggest he was still there in June 1962. In a letter typed on New Melray letterhead on June 19, 1962, Fight wrote, "The time has come to make some definite decisions, enabling me to begin a regular and ordered life with definite goals and a definite aim in life." By the beginning of 1963, the church had moved Fight to the Assumption Abbey in Ava, Missouri.
26:51 Speaker 00 This was where John Fight met Dale Tackney, who was serving as novice master at the monastery training New Perspective monks. According to a 2002 interview transcript with Tackney, his superior told him to counsel Fight. He said that Father Fight had murdered a young woman. There were no other details given. And apparently, Tackney counseled Fight for over six months. During that time, Fight admitted to attacking a young woman after her confession, keeping her captive overnight and leaving her to suffocate. She was eventually dumped in a canal.
27:31 Speaker 00 Fight also spoke of a proclivity for wanting to attack women from behind, which was triggered by the sound of their high heels clicking.
27:41 Speaker 01 Interesting.
27:41 Speaker 00 Very. And I don't know if that speaks to a high heel fetish, if it goes back to his childhood, mother issues, I have no idea. But if this is true, what, you know, this guy Tackney said, it seems like everyone was aware that he had killed Irene Garza. By late 1963, Tackney and his superior determined Fight wasn't suited to be a monk and could go back out into the world. Fight enrolled as a graduate student and philosopher. At Loyola College in Chicago, he attended school from September 63 to January 1964.
28:26 Speaker 00 Now, why would they determine that this guy was not suited to be a monk?
28:32 Speaker 01 Because he wasn't a good guy.
28:33 Speaker 00 Possibly because he had killed a woman and had a proclivity for attacking women from behind.
28:41 Speaker 01 He didn't have the temperament to be a monk.
28:43 Speaker 00 He didn't have the temperament to be a member of society.
28:47 Speaker 01 Well, that's true. That's true.
28:49 Speaker 00 Let alone a monk.
28:51 Speaker 01 And why do they get to decide that he can go back with general population?
28:56 Speaker 00 Well, my only thought is, you know, that they're still trying to protect the church. It does seem to me that that was a, a, a pretty, you know, high goal for the church back in the day. Almost at all costs.
29:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:12 Speaker 00 I think, you know, in, in some examples we've seen, you know, that movie Spotlight, which is a great movie.
29:18 Speaker 01 It was.
29:19 Speaker 00 Kind of really drills down.
29:22 Speaker 01 It did.
29:23 Speaker 00 On, on the links that were gone to, to hide some abuse. By the end of 1964, Fite moved west to Jimenez Springs, New Mexico, to a facility run by a Catholic religious order called the Servants of the Pericle. It was founded in 1947 by Father Gerald Fitzgerald's as a monastery for troubled priests. Fitzgerald was soon overloaded with priests who had, quote, unquote, sexual problems.
29:57 Speaker 01 Yikes.
29:58 Speaker 00 According to A.W. Richard Sype, a former monk, priest, and expert in sexual abuse behavior priest, it eventually came out that children were involved. Sype later testified for the prosecution in Fite's case. Former priest and victim advocate Patrick J. Wall described the facility as a supermax because it was a last resort for troubled priests. Fite spent seven years at Jimenez Springs and later joined the Servants of the Pericle. By late 1968, Fite had risen to the position of superior at the facility called Via Coeli, meaning way to heaven in Latin.
30:41 Speaker 00 Gibbs, he was supervising more than 80 priests. One of whom was James Porter from Massachusetts. Porter arrived in 1967 after multiple complaints of child abuse in Massachusetts.
30:55 Speaker 01 Is this the guy that should be in that position?
30:58 Speaker 00 Well, what happened to them saying he should just go out into the world? He shouldn't even be part of this anymore. It sounds to me like he wasn't ready to give up on, on being a priest. He goes to, you know, this place that is kind of deemed the last resort for troubled priests. And now he's in charge of a whole mess of troubled priests.
31:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's, uh, kinda running a sector there at the super max.
31:30 Speaker 00 Mike Rec, an attorney representing over a dozen of Porter's victims, told 48 Hours, Porter was one of the most dangerous and depraved sexually offensive priests ever. And to be honest with you, that's, that's saying something. Rec added, "The reality that Mr. Fight, himself a criminal, was placed in a position of power, supervision and direction of other criminal priests is a public safety nightmare." And I would have to agree with that statement. It's like, you know, you had somebody in, in super max for multiple murders.
32:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:07 Speaker 00 Who somehow, for whatever reason, got let out of prison. And the next day they hired him to be, uh, in charge of the, uh, corrections facility.
32:16 Speaker 01 Yeah. Hey, you're the new warden here or junior warden or whatever.
32:19 Speaker 00 Or, or given some position of power, it just wouldn't happen. Fight worked with Porter for a year and a half, sometimes releasing him temporarily to churches in need of staffing, including at least four locations around New Mexico and Texas. And again, here's a guy who was said to be one of the most dangerous and sexually depraved offensive priests ever.
32:45 Speaker 00 And now you're just sending him into places where nobody knows him. What do you think he's gonna do? Fight also sent him to a parochial facility in Nevis, Minnesota, where he worked at a neighboring parish. Fight wrote about Porter. He's a willing worker and gets along well with pastors and people wherever he goes. Thus far, there's been no occurrence of the problem which plagued Father Porter in the past. Fight later claimed he was unaware of Porter's abuse of children until Porter was already gone. However, you know, to me, him writing that kind of says the opposite.
33:23 Speaker 01 I was thinking the same thing.
33:25 Speaker 00 Porter was arrested over 20 years later and pleaded guilty to molesting 28 children. But he told a reporter, Gibbs, that he had abused upwards of 100 children.
33:37 Speaker 01 Of course.
33:38 Speaker 00 In 1993, Porter was sentenced to 18 to 20 years in prison. He died in 2005.
33:45 Speaker 01 Got off easy.
33:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, and Porter's case and others, right, garnered national attention and investigations, particularly the one by the Boston Globe, which exposed widespread sexual abuse within the Catholic Church. And again, I think that movie Spotlight is probably kind of based on that. I think they were at the Boston Globe. They were definitely in Boston.
34:08 Speaker 01 They were.
34:09 Speaker 00 By 1971, Father Fight requested laceration and dispensation from his obligations as a priest. Okay, that is a word I have never heard of. Laceration. By 1972, he had married a woman from New Mexico and started a family. He worked multiple jobs, including as an insurance salesman. So he is out of the religious order. He's no longer a priest. He's married, starting a family, working a regular job.
34:46 Speaker 01 A productive citizen now.
34:48 Speaker 00 Allegedly.
34:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:50 Speaker 00 He settled in Phoenix in 1979, where his older brother Matthias was living and working as a priest. Fight remained in Arizona, raised his family, even became a grandfather. He eventually got a job at a food bank. The community viewed him as a compassionate person with love for those less fortunate. So. You know, either he was putting on one heck of a show, or it's possible that as he grew older, he changed. He did turn his life around, which is a good thing.
35:25 Speaker 01 It is.
35:26 Speaker 00 But it doesn't absolve you of something that you did in your past. So as we go back to Irene Garza's case, it had been unsolved for years. Many in her family suspected there was an agreement between the church and authorities, but there was no proof of this. Milo Ponce, a member of Irene's extended family, was a deputy sheriff assigned to the investigation. One day, he was taken off the case and asked to turn in his records. His superior said they would handle the investigation. Okay, I think if you're the family who is already distrustful
36:08 Speaker 00 of the investigation, that is not going to help alleviate any of your concerns.
36:16 Speaker 01 Not at all. Actually, it's going to raise them.
36:20 Speaker 00 According to Texas Monthly reporter Pam Callow, Father Joseph O'Brien, the assistant pastor at Sacred Heart, visited Irene's parents and told them that if the church found Father Fite guilty, he would face a greater punishment from the church than the courts could ever give. So I'll ask you this, Gibbs. If you're the father of a murdered daughter, and you know, someone from the church comes and tells you that, what's your thoughts?
36:50 Speaker 01 Not good.
36:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, for me, that would be, it would be pretty hard to believe. I don't know what punishment you're talking about, but it can't be as serious as what he would get from a court of law.
37:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:07 Speaker 00 What are you going to banish him to another? Monastery or, you know, something like that.
37:13 Speaker 01 Cause that's worked out so well.
37:15 Speaker 00 You're going to defrock him. He's already not even a priest at this point. In 2002, McAllen Police Chief Victor Rodriguez decided to reopen the investigation. He brought in the cold case unit of the Texas Rangers. Ranger Rudy Jaramillo was assigned to Irene's case. I don't know why, but I like the Texas Rangers. I guess it's the mystique.
37:40 Speaker 01 Is it?
37:40 Speaker 00 How long they've been around, all of that.
37:43 Speaker 01 There's nothing to do with all those years you watched Walker?
37:47 Speaker 00 I never have seen an episode of Walker, Texas. I swear to you, I have not ever.
37:52 Speaker 01 What's the deal with all the posters?
37:54 Speaker 00 Never seen an episode.
37:56 Speaker 01 But yet you have Chuck Norris stuff everywhere. And I think I walked in here once before when you had your cowboy boots on and your hat, trying to do like Kung Fu, karate, some type of spin, kick moves. Yeah.
38:14 Speaker 00 Does that sound like something I could get away with? I can barely get out of this chair sometimes.
38:20 Speaker 01 I actually would be worried.
38:22 Speaker 00 If I tried that?
38:23 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's like, oh man, yeah, you get this, get the squad here now.
38:27 Speaker 00 I know. You might as well call the squad ahead of time if I'm going to attempt something like that. Jaramillo ordered DNA testing on Irene's clothing, but no DNA was found because her body had been in the water for too long. In the fall of 2002, former monk Dale Tackney decided it was time to come forward to report John Fite's confession. He had kept the secret for almost 40 years.
38:52 Speaker 01 Man, that's a, be hard to do, that type of secret.
38:56 Speaker 00 It's a long time and I can only imagine how much that kind of, you know, aided him day in, day out. He initially spoke to Detective George Sider from the San Antonio PD. Tackney said in his call and later in a letter that he had information about a murder he believed took place around Easter in the early 1960s in San Antonio. He wrote that former priest John Fite confessed to him during counseling. Although the victim wasn't named, Tackney's letter was very detailed. So Detective Sider hoped he could link it to a specific case. He looked at somewhere between 200 to 300 cases, but couldn't find a match.
39:39 Speaker 00 When a Texas Ranger visited Sadler and viewed his list of cases, he noticed one labeled "priest case." The Ranger mentioned that his partner was also working on a priest case and connected him to Ranger Rudy Garamillo. The two men compared notes and concluded that the monk had the wrong city. The victim he was talking about was most likely Irene Garza from McCallum. Years later, Tackany would read excerpts of the letter. He wrote to investigators to 48 Hours. He wrote, "I covered up the evidence. I'm sorry for what I did." Fite described the victim as a woman in her early twenties. Tackany told 48 Hours,
40:24 Speaker 00 "After confession, he took her blouse off, he fondled her breasts, and then after that, he took her down to the basement and somehow she remained in the basement. I assume that he tied her up down there." Hours or days later, Tackany, didn't recall exactly, Fite moved her from the rectory to another location. The next day, when he had to go back to the church for masses, Easter Sunday, I believe it was, and he put her in the bathroom, put her in the tub, put her in a bag or something over her head. But when he was leaving, he heard her say, "I can't breathe. I can't breathe." And with that, he shut the door
41:07 Speaker 00 and left. When he came back, he opened the bathroom door and she was dead. And then with the body, he dumped the body along the road by a canal. So Gibbs, I know I've said it before, but I have a number of phobias, right? Heights, enclosed spaces, running out of air is one of those.
41:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm the same way with that one.
41:30 Speaker 00 I tried to watch a movie with Ryan Reynolds in it.
41:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:35 Speaker 00 And the whole movie takes place with him buried underground in like a casket.
41:39 Speaker 01 Okay, I heard about that one.
41:41 Speaker 00 Um, it's interesting, but it really brought out some, uh, phew, anxiety.
41:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:49 Speaker 00 In me. And to think that this priest.
41:55 Speaker 00 Put something over her head, knowing that she couldn't breathe and was so callous that he just turned around and closed the door and left.
42:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, didn't care.
42:05 Speaker 00 That really tells you a lot, or really everything you need to know about this guy. Forty-eight hours asked Tacne if he ever wondered why Fight ended up in the monastery and not in jail. Tacne said he asked Father Fight this question, and Fight said, "Individuals in the church protected him to avoid scandal." He also explained his reasoning for coming forward after so many years. In 2001, an author asked Tacne if he could write about his life in the priesthood. Tacne realized he shouldn't tell his story to a writer. He should go to the police. He felt guilty that he could have helped solve the murder years earlier.
42:47 Speaker 00 He said in his 2002 police interview, "While I knew that Father Fight had committed the murder, I felt that my primary function with Father Fight was to see if perhaps he ultimately might not have a vocation to become a monk in the monastery." That same year, Father Joseph O'Brien also came forward. Back in 2000, O'Brien went on a local TV show to talk about the case. He said, "The only thing I can think of, looking back, I think maybe we focused too much on the church and her friends. That's all I can think of because I'm telling you that investigation was thorough." Now, he was ready to reveal what he knew.
43:28 Speaker 00 O'Brien told Ranger Yarmillo that he suspected John Fight was involved from the beginning. He thought the scratches on Fight's hands were fingernail scratches. He was so suspicious that he and another priest searched the rectory for Irene on Easter Sunday, but they found no sign of her. And apparently during a confrontation in 1960, Fight admitted he killed Irene.
43:53 Speaker 01 Just straight out said, "I did it."
43:55 Speaker 00 But it is a little troubling, right, Gibbs, that so many people seem to know that he killed this woman, and yet they failed to come forward for decades and decades.
44:10 Speaker 01 Because they were protecting the church.
44:14 Speaker 00 Ranger Yarmelo asked Dale Tackeny to call John Fight in January 2003. Tackeny told Fight he wanted to clear his conscience about the death of a young woman. Fight claimed he didn't remember any of their discussion, saying, "At the time, I was in the monastery. I was pretty much a broken man, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. I have no recollection what I may have told you at the time." He maintained that he didn't kill Irene Garza. And what's he gonna say? This guy calls you out of the blue many, many years later and just all of a sudden wants to talk about this? I don't know how many people would be like, "Oh yeah, I remember that. I told you this and this and this."
44:59 Speaker 00 Because you don't know what's being recorded. Well, that's true. I'm sure he was, you know, had his guard up. Rene Guerra, the DA at the time, decided against bringing the case before a grand jury because he didn't think the witnesses were credible. According to 48 Hours, Guerra believed it was an un-triable case and questioned Tackeny's integrity. He also thought Tackeny was unintentionally fed details by Ranger Yarmelo. Yarmelo denied this and said Tackeny gave details to the San Antonio detective months before he ever spoke to him. But Yarmelo did later tell Tackeny the correct location and date.
45:43 Speaker 00 And I get this, right? You've got some individuals who have what appears to be really good information, but Gibbs, they waited like four decades to come forward. Yeah. I think as the DA, you gotta weigh that. You have to at least try to figure out what the jury's gonna make of it. Are they gonna think these people are credible because they waited so long after much pushing from Irene's family? In March 2004, Guerra assigned two prosecutors to handle the case. It was brought before a grand jury, but John Fight, Joseph O'Brien, and Dale Tackeny were never subpoenaed to testify.
46:28 Speaker 00 Grand jurors only saw audio tapes and transcripts.
46:33 Speaker 01 Interesting approach.
46:34 Speaker 00 Well, I don't think it's anywhere near as powerful. And in June 2004, the grand jury declined to indict John Fight. Key witness Joseph O'Brien died in September 2005 at the age of 77. And you know, that's one of the things, one of the big problems, right? You have in a case that's this old, you have these people who say they have information.
46:59 Speaker 01 Right.
47:00 Speaker 00 But they're coming forward very late in the game. And some of them die before they're ever able to get up on a stand and testify. In 2014, Ricardo Rodriguez won the election for DA and promised to look into Irene's case. Forty-eight hours covered the case that same year. Correspondent Richard Schlesinger found John Fight in Arizona and confronted him with Dale Tackney's admission. Fight denied killing Irene and said Dale is full of shit. All right, not really what you expect a priest or a former priest to say, but.
47:38 Speaker 01 Right.
47:39 Speaker 00 Eighty-three-year-old John Fight was arrested and charged with murder on February 9, 2016. The case was presented to a grand jury a week earlier. Fight was taken for questioning at the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office in Phoenix. He was questioned by a Texas Ranger and a detective from the McAllen Police Department. When presented with the arrest warrant, Fight said, I've been questioned extensively about this dating back to 1960, so I'm disappointed, but not surprised. John Fight's trial started on November 30, 2017. The prosecution argued that after hearing Irene's confession, Fight lured her into the rectory, assaulted and killed her.
48:25 Speaker 00 ADA Mike Garza, no relation to Irene, told the jury that a deal was made between police and Catholic church officials to protect John Fight from prosecution and allow the church hierarchy to discipline the priest under its own terms. According to CBS, most elected officials in Hidalgo County at the time were Catholic, and Senator John F. Kendi, also Catholic, was running for president that year. Garza said in court, "The institution who is in the business of seeking salvation for others." Was complicit in covering up this murder. And that just seems like bad business. It does, but it seems like.
49:10 Speaker 00 Like it was pretty common throughout the years. I know, and that's, that's part of the problem. Right. Whether in this case, it had something to do with a murder. You know, more often we're talking about sexual abuse, right? By the hands of a priest or something like that, that's been covered up. That's like, you know, the place that you work at, the place I used to work at. Okay, you're working for me. Right. You kill somebody in the parking lot. Yeah. I see it, but I work out somehow a deal with the police. That the organization is going to discipline you. Yeah. Rather than you make your way through the courts. That makes no sense to me at all.
49:55 Speaker 00 But yet that's how the podcast started. It is, it is, and I regret some of it. Fite was later allowed to rise to a position of authority overseeing troubled priests who were released to the public. I think that's a mistake too. Yeah, I think it was, and we talked about it. In the lead up to the trial, prosecutors subpoenaed records from Fite's former religious order, the missionary oblets of Mary Immaculate. Inside the file was a typed letter from Father J.F. Pollocky to the head of the Southern Region of the OMI, Father Lawrence Seidel. The letter was dated August 1, 1960. The letter didn't mention Fite by name, but Father Pollocky wrote of advice he received
50:41 Speaker 00 from the sheriff. He wrote, "Father Seidel, last week I had the opportunity of speaking with the sheriff about the case. His observations are not only keen and based upon much experience in such matters, but seem to be the course we should follow. I gave this same set of observations to Bishop Riker, and he too is impressed with the saneness and the practicality of the sheriff's conclusions." He wrote, "What to do of all this?" First, the sheriff said that we should follow the idea of not hiring a lawyer for the reasons given by Father Nash. Second, we should not put a detective on the case hired by us, since that would mean he would be snooping around, re-questioning witnesses,
51:25 Speaker 00 and stirring up things again. However, he does feel that we should hire a person, something like a first-class private detective, who would be able to sit down with Father Nash to get all the information on this case, then let him write it up and present it on paper in such a way as to highlight the loopholes that are so numerous in this case. Once this is done, arrange a meeting with the police chief of McCall, the prosecuting attorney, and the sheriff, plus four priests. At this meeting, the whole situation is brought out, and the prosecution will be able to see how strong the opposition is to their charges. They can also be brought to realize, in a nice way, that the church will not take
52:10 Speaker 00 this sitting down. I mean, they are really conspiring behind the scenes. They are. But also, in cooperation with the sheriff somehow. Like, he's giving them advice on how to handle this. And it just seems so wrong. And dirty. Yeah. The whole thing seems dirty to me. And the letter was a lot longer than that. I couldn't read the whole thing. But the prosecution called this letter a smoking gun, in the theory of a conspiracy between the church and authorities. And, I mean, how could you not? Thomas Doyle, an expert witness in clergy abuse, testified at trial, if it became known
52:52 Speaker 00 that this priest had murdered someone, it would be bad publicity for the church. Where, in fact, the true scandal, in my professional estimation, is engineering the cover-up, or not allowing or permitting or insisting that this man follow the course of justice. That's the scandal. Oh, absolutely. Because, let's face it, you can have rogue elements of any organization that may do something illegal. You acknowledge it, you move on. That person gets dealt with by the courts and the authorities. But to cover something like that up, I think it is scandalous.
53:37 Speaker 00 The jury also heard from Irene's friend Beatrice Garcia, who testified that in the weeks before Irene was murdered, John Fite asked to photograph her at a cemetery. Okay, it seems creepy.
53:50 Speaker 01 It does.
53:51 Speaker 00 Irene's friend Maria Hollingsworth testified that Irene visited her in April 1960 and spoke about a new priest at church whom she thought was handsome. The priest pulled Irene out of confession. According to Hollingsworth, she said, "It's not the same going to confession anymore, because I don't get to stay in the confessional. He comes to pull me out and says, 'Oh, this place isn't good enough for you. Let's go to the rectory where you'll be more comfortable.'" And then they walk off and go to the rectory.
54:24 Speaker 01 So he's a predator.
54:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, and there's no doubt. He was infatuated with Irene Garza. Now, at the same time, she told her friend, you know, she thought he was handsome, but she also knew he was a priest.
54:37 Speaker 01 So she probably thought there was very little danger there.
54:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, I could, I could see that. Former reporter Daryl Davis testified about the off-the-record meeting between reporters and the DA in 1962, where the DA said they knew Fite had killed Irene and he would be sent to a monastery. Dale Tackney testified that his superiors at the monastery told him Father Fite had killed someone and asked him to determine whether he was fit for life as a monk.
55:07 Speaker 01 I would say, it's not even a possibility. How can you be a monk and represent what monks represent if you killed somebody?
55:19 Speaker 00 But the cover-up, right? The links and all of the people that were involved, from the sheriff to the DA, and it seems like all these people knew about it, but they were either okay or were pressured by the church to the point where they, they let them take care of it. Fight told Takane that he had a penchant for attacking young women in heels. Fight said, I get anxious when I hear click, click, click, click. When I hear the heels on a hard concrete floor. But Fight expressed no remorse when he confessed to killing Irene. According to Takane, Fight said three things helped him avoid prison,
56:03 Speaker 00 the church, law enforcement, and the rules of sealed confession. Whenever they get close to anything, he would say confessional secrecy. Takane testified that he didn't initially report the crime because it wasn't my place to make a judgment. He tried to counsel Fight to change his behavior towards women. And I get it, right? We're not supposed to judge people. But when a person comes out and admits to you that they killed a young woman, I don't think you're making a judgment as much as you are doing the right thing. And he was not remorseful. It goes back to your point of, you know,
56:48 Speaker 00 how many times maybe had he done this before that we don't know about? Or the church knew about and covered those up as well? Sure. And again, I don't want to bag on the church here, but there's no doubt that they were part of the cover up in this case. Oh, they stated. In the letters. Yeah. Yeah. The defense argued Takane was fed information and suggested he was upset at the church. They also noted that he was approached to write a book about his life. But Takane said he rejected the offer because part of that story was my relationship with Father Fight. Defense attorney Rene Flores told 48 Hours to sit here and believe that Dale Takane received this information from John at the time.
57:32 Speaker 00 And according to his testimony, was not moved in one way or another because he quote, was not there to judge. To believe that and then fast forward 40 some odd years when he came up and says, I was moved because I wanted to bring closure to the family. We got a word for that in Texas, bullshit.
57:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, we have that same word here.
57:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, we do. That's not just the Texas word, but I do get what the person is saying, right? You didn't do the right thing back then. So why are we now to believe that you're being truthful? When you say you want to do the right thing now, because part of the defense job is to poke holes in this man's character.
58:17 Speaker 01 That's true. Just make him look as bad as possible.
58:20 Speaker 00 Tacni later acknowledged some of the details he presented as fact were assumptions based on what Fight told him. McAllen Police Chief Victor Rodriguez testified about Fight's two signed statements from May and June 1960. He denied ever meeting Irene in his first statement, but in the second, he acknowledged hearing her confession on the night she went missing. Rodriguez believed Fight was deceitful. He also found it disturbing that Fight made half a dozen trips from the pastoral house in San Juan to Sacred Heart on the day Irene went missing. His excuses included broken glasses, forgotten clothing, and soiled laundry.
59:04 Speaker 01 Hmm, that's interesting.
59:06 Speaker 00 Which part? The part that he may or may not have shat himself?
59:11 Speaker 01 Exactly.
59:12 Speaker 00 On December 7, 2017, 85-year-old John Fight was found guilty of the murder of Irene Garza. He was sentenced to life in prison the following day.
59:22 Speaker 01 Eighty-five? How long is that gonna be?
59:26 Speaker 00 Well, nowhere near as long as it should have been.
59:28 Speaker 01 Exactly.
59:29 Speaker 00 Right? If he would have been charged, convicted back in the, in 60 or the early 60s, that would have been a more fitting sentence. On February 11, 2020, John Fight was found unresponsive in his cell and pronounced dead at the hospital. The preliminary cause of death was cardiac arrest. Fight was in the process of appealing his life sentence. Prosecutor said his death would not affect his conviction. Dale Tackney died a month prior to fight. He was 90 years old. So, you know, getting back to how long is that going to be? It was about three years. He served about three years before he died.
1:00:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, not very long.
1:00:15 Speaker 00 Not for, you know, killing a young woman with her whole life ahead of her. And, you know, for me, part of the travesty is that, you know, this man got to live out his life. However, that life played out. He was a free man, whereas Irene Garza lost her life. And her family lost out on, you know, watching her grow and being with her at holidays and all of that stuff. And I think that's what, you know, upsets me about this case the most. Yes, there's the cover up. And it's not just the church, right? We're talking about law enforcement being involved.
1:01:00 Speaker 00 The DA.
1:01:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:02 Speaker 00 Really basically knowing that this guy killed her.
1:01:06 Speaker 01 There's a lot of hands in on this.
1:01:07 Speaker 00 There was. Now, how much of that was due to pressure by the church? I'm sure a lot of it.
1:01:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:14 Speaker 00 But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do the right thing. And there were a number of people in this instance that chose not to do the right thing. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, although investigators had identified their suspect within days of Irene Garza's murder, it took over 50 years to bring him to justice. Despite showing a history of violent behavior towards women, he continued working as a priest for many years. And this case is notable because investigators exposed a corrupt priest and an alleged cover up involving the church and authorities. And I think, you know, that's what grabs a lot of people's attention about this case.
1:01:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:58 Speaker 00 It's salacious enough that a priest would murder a young girl. But when you add in the cover up. That just takes it to a whole nother level. The fact that this guy got away with it for 50 years. He lived his life.
1:02:18 Speaker 01 He did.
1:02:19 Speaker 00 He was an old man. He was 85 years old by the time he was finally convicted.
1:02:24 Speaker 01 You know, we say it took 50 years for them to bring him to justice. It took them 50 years to decide to overcome the church to bring him to justice.
1:02:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, but I look back and, and think, you know, the sheriff and the DA, they could have done the right thing.
1:02:40 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:02:41 Speaker 00 Early on, was there pressure from the church? I'm sure there, there was. And, you know, let's be honest, the church held a lot more power than let's say they do today.
1:02:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:54 Speaker 00 In the 50s, the 60s.
1:02:57 Speaker 01 Very powerful.
1:02:57 Speaker 00 Very powerful.
1:02:59 Speaker 01 Money, votes, all kinds of things connected.
1:03:03 Speaker 00 But it's just sad when the corruption can extend that far. But that's it for our episode on Irene Garza. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:03:13 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:03:14 Speaker 02 Hi guys, this is Sarah again from Delaware. I was just listening to the Matthew Owens episode and I wanted to make a really important point that I think a lot of people don't know. When you guys talk about a woman being pulled over by a cop, you don't actually have to pull over. You have the full legal right to call dispatch and confirm that you are actually being pulled over. And you can request that they follow you to the nearest gas station, store, whatever the situation may be. You don't have to pull over. You can absolutely confirm that you're actually being pulled over by a legitimate cop and not someone pretending to be someone else. I just thought this was really important.
1:03:56 Speaker 02 I didn't learn this until I was in my twenties and I hope that anyone listening will learn this and will also tell their kids this because it's an important way to stay safe. Keep your own time ticking.
1:04:07 Speaker 00 All right. Great voicemail. Again, I don't know if that pertains to every state. Maybe it does. I don't know.
1:04:14 Speaker 01 I don't know.
1:04:15 Speaker 00 But I think people should research it.
1:04:16 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:04:17 Speaker 00 And, and find out because it is an important safeguard.
1:04:22 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:04:22 Speaker 00 That someone might want to use if they have any doubt that they're being pulled over by a legitimate police officer. But again, I would check your local statute, state statutes and, and things like that.
1:04:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, I just don't pull over.
1:04:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, you just keep on going.
1:04:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:40 Speaker 00 And I'm getting pretty tired of bailing you out, to be honest with you.
1:04:43 Speaker 01 Well.
1:04:44 Speaker 00 Cause you don't always pay me back. That's the thing.
1:04:47 Speaker 01 I knew you were gonna say.
1:04:48 Speaker 00 Wimpy?
1:04:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:49 Speaker 00 You, you got the whole, I'll, I'll pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. Tuesday never comes.
1:04:55 Speaker 01 Well, eventually it'll get here.
1:04:56 Speaker 00 And then there's another bail that has to be paid. I haven't been paid back for the first one.
1:05:00 Speaker 01 I don't think you've been paid back for more, more than probably like three or four.
1:05:05 Speaker 00 Uh, all right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:05:10 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:05:11 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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