Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Grady Stiles Jr. About this episode Grady Franklin Stiles Jr. was a carnival performer who had the genetic condition ectrodactyly. Because of this, Stiles performed under the stage name “Lobster Boy.” In 1979, Stiles was convicted of murdering his own daughter’s fiancé a day before their wedding.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Grady Stiles Jr. Grady came from a long line of carnival performers who all had the same genetic condition. Some of his children had it as well. Grady was said to have been extremely abusive to his family. He was killed in a murder-for-hire scheme orchestrated by members of his own family.
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Transcript 10,033 words · 3 speakers
0:34 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 476 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? Doing very well. That's good. We're just talking about all the stuff we have coming up. Got lots out there. We do. We have Crime Con coming up and then about a week after that, my daughter's getting married. So we're trying to figure out how to get ahead with all these episodes. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Steve Wilmert jump out at our highest level. Hey, Wilmert. Bianca Ikenboom. Awesome. I can boom. Angela Gillum. Hey, thanks, Gillum. Madison Poston. Ah, Poston. Sarah Whelan. Well, hi, Sarah.
1:19 Speaker 00 Nikki Weaver. What's going on, Nikki? And last but not least, Brett Stewart. Well, thank you so much, Stewart. Yeah, we appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault.
1:31 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Shannon Barber. Thanks, Shannon. So we appreciate that long-term support very much. We love it. So we have an episode out right now, a new one on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Marilyn McCown. She was known as Nikki and she disappeared just a few weeks before her wedding. While she was doing laundry on a Sunday afternoon. So there's a lot of mystery to this one. If you haven't listened, make sure you check it out. Even like, why are you doing laundry? Do you do laundry? Do I? Yeah. Sometimes when my wife asks me to. Okay. I'm just checking. But people have to do laundry. Do they have to?
2:14 Speaker 00 Well, not everybody can send all their stuff to the dry cleaners like you do. Jeans, t-shirts, underwear, things like that.
2:24 Speaker 00 And we also have a new episode coming out Thursday that's on Connie and Larry Van Ousten. And yeah, this is a story that goes back to 2017. Fascinating. It is a home abduction of, you know, these two people. And then, you know, they're made to go to the bank,
2:44 Speaker 01 Right.
2:44 Speaker 00 to try to get out some money. And then they're held in kind of a makeshift dungeon.
2:50 Speaker 01 I kind of built a little dungeon in my basement.
2:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know if that's something that you should be disclosing, to be honest with you.
2:56 Speaker 01 Too soon?
2:57 Speaker 00 Probably. I mean, ever. I don't know that there's ever a time to disclose that.
3:02 Speaker 01 I'll hold things like that back from now on.
3:04 Speaker 00 Okay. All right, buddy. You ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:08 Speaker 01 I'm ready.
3:09 Speaker 00 We're talking about Grady Stiles Jr. Grady Franklin Stiles Jr. was a carnival performer who had the genetic condition ectoductily. And because of this, Stiles performed under the stage name Lobster Boy.
3:27 Speaker 01 Okay, fascinating.
3:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, this is a fascinating case on its own. But he was not a good guy. And we're going to get into all the details. And there are quite a few twists and turns in this case. Grady Stiles Jr. was born on June 26, 1937. And I mentioned it, right? He was born with this condition called ectoductily. Hopefully, I'm saying that somewhat correctly. It's also known as split hand foot malformation or cleft hand. It's a very rare genetic condition in which one or more of the middle fingers or toes are missing or malformed.
4:12 Speaker 01 I just find it fascinating. I can't imagine growing up with something like that because at least when I was young, growing up, other kids would have just picked you apart.
4:24 Speaker 00 Oh, I mean, they picked us apart for things that. Were normal that everybody had or did or whatever. So yeah, something like this. Unfortunately, people are going to be mean about, right? I wish it wasn't that way, but we all know it is. The condition leaves a V shaped space or indentation that may give the hand a claw like appearance, according to the Cleveland Clinic. Styles was the fourth child of Edna and Grady Styles senior, who also had ectoductally. Styles's family had a long history of this, dating back all the way to 1840.
5:08 Speaker 00 Styles junior was the fourth generation with this condition.
5:12 Speaker 01 It's really interesting, though, that it goes back so many generations. I mean, I guess the good thing about that is that you have people in your family that have had to deal with this.
5:24 Speaker 00 And can maybe help you along, right? They know what you're you're going through.
5:28 Speaker 01 Medically, but also more importantly socially.
5:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, and obviously it's hereditary. I mean, there's no doubt about that. Grady Styles senior worked as a sideshow attraction in a traveling carnival. When Styles junior turned seven, his father brought him into the act. And then for almost 50 years, Grady Styles junior traveled around the country on the carnival circuit. He advertised himself as the lobster boy. He would tell audiences part of his act, per the LA Times. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, I am the lobster boy. This condition is not caused by drugs or diseases. It runs in the family.
6:13 Speaker 00 And let's be honest, he wasn't lying about that part.
6:16 Speaker 01 Right.
6:17 Speaker 00 Barbara Schaefer, who managed food concessions on Styles's circuit, told the Tampa Bay Times, I've seen pictures of him when he was little and on display. It's all he's ever known. There was no opportunity for the disabled in those times. He used to say, Barbara, I just want to get off that stand. And I think for me, there's, there's some real sadness there.
6:43 Speaker 01 And it sounds sad when you hear what he said.
6:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you can imagine him being seven years old and his father just kind of thrusting him on stage. And then. Basically, what it sounds like is that, you know, remaining a performer was all he knew and, and the only way that he thought he would be able to, um, you know, make money and survive. Styles married twice and had three children. His first wife, Mary Theresa, grew up in rural Vermont. She ran away from an abusive home at the age of 19 to join the carnival. She took tickets and worked the sword box on a platform in front of a sideshow, according to the Tampa Bay Times.
7:30 Speaker 01 Think of the stories that you could probably hear from people that are carnies and do these type of shows. I would think it'd be pretty interesting.
7:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, the shows themselves are, you know, the entertainment, what they are, but just imagine the kind of after the show, what are they doing? What as when they hang out, you know, what are they talking about?
7:56 Speaker 01 I remember watching, uh, Steve Martin and the jerk back in the day, you know, and, you know, at one point he's, he's traveling around with the Carney show and it's just, you know, obviously it's going to be funny and you just think about all the different things that they were doing. And it's just, uh, uh, I just found it fascinating, but also like there's a sense of, um, con artists with some of that stuff.
8:25 Speaker 00 Well, I get that, right? If you're a magician, if you're a showman, is part of that, that you're trying to con the audience? And maybe that's not the right word, but, um, yeah, there's some of that, I think. Marion Styles got married in 1958. They had two daughters, Donna and Kathy. Kathy was born with the same genetic condition as her father. When not traveling, Styles and his family lived in Gibsonton, Florida, where thousands of carnival performers lived during the off season. The Tampa Bay Times reported on Gibsonton in 1992.
9:07 Speaker 00 In this rural community in Southern Hillsborough County, people willingly share their landscape with lions, tigers, bears, elephants, llamas, and what is reported to be the nation's only pack of domesticated wolves.
9:24 Speaker 00 The residents practice high wire acts in their backyards. They store carnival rides on the side streets.
9:32 Speaker 01 Wow, just a whole community of carnies.
9:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, not shockingly that it's named Gibsonton.
9:42 Speaker 01 Of course.
9:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, that was not lost on me. A local historian dated the founding of Gibsonton back to 1924. When two carnival cookhouse operators first wintered in the area. They built a structure with a restaurant inside and a few cabins. And then year after year, more carnival workers started spending their winters there. So I'm assuming we're talking about your what? Great, great grandfather and maybe one of his friends or something.
10:14 Speaker 01 Maybe.
10:14 Speaker 00 Started this all up. Many in the community of Gibsonton knew and respected styles. They considered him a smart businessman who went from working as a performer to owning his own carnival show. He would lend people money when they needed it. However, people noticed that he was often disagreeable and drank to excess.
10:39 Speaker 01 I bet he was really disagreeable after he drank too much.
10:43 Speaker 00 I would imagine so. You know, in my experience, a lot of times alcohol intensifies your personality. Let's say some people who are happy go lucky, they can be happy drunk. People who are kind of nasty and sour, they get even more nasty and sour. Now it can go the other way too, right? You can have a great person who drinks alcohol and then their demeanor kind of goes south, but.
11:17 Speaker 00 But it was said that Grady dealt with alcoholism and was extremely abusive to his family. His daughter Kathy later told the Tampa Bay Times, "They don't know my father. A lot of them didn't know how he was capable of jumping out of his wheelchair. He kept his abuse very quiet, very behind closed doors." And I'm sure that's true for a lot of people who are abusive. I mean, is that something that you're going to advertise?
11:50 Speaker 01 No, I don't think that's something that they're going to put out there.
11:52 Speaker 00 I think most would try to keep that behind closed doors because, you know, they don't want to look bad, or they don't want to get in trouble. On top of that, he also has this reputation, right, as a performer, pretty well-known performer. That's his livelihood. He doesn't want to damage that by, you know, being labeled as an abuser. Stiles's wife, Mary, recalled that a few years into their marriage, alcohol abuse made him a different person.
12:23 Speaker 01 No doubt about it. Alcohol can change a person's personality.
12:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, even even for casual drinkers, but for people who have a real problem with alcohol and addiction, I mean, it can be, it can be rough.
12:38 Speaker 01 It can be.
12:39 Speaker 00 Stiles's condition affected the growth of his legs, so he often used the wheelchair out in public. Other times, he used his hands and arms to move around. Because of this, he developed significant upper body strength that, when combined with his temper and alcohol abuse, made him a danger to others.
13:01 Speaker 01 Super strength in his, uh, upper body.
13:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, have you ever seen someone who either...
13:08 Speaker 00 Only has the use of their arms, whether it's, you know, pedaling a non-motorized wheelchair, or I have seen some people who kind of almost walk on their hands. They can develop a lot of strength because you're using those muscles all the time.
13:27 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Yeah, I've seen that, you know, to the point, sometimes they have, you know, this upper body that looks like a bodybuilder almost. And then their legs are just, you know, obviously not as developed.
13:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, because they can't use them. Styles hit his family members, choked them with his hands, rammed into them with his wheelchair, or would headbutt them in anger.
13:51 Speaker 01 Pretty violent.
13:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any doubt about it. This was a very volatile individual. And I think it was magnified, right, by his drinking. His wife, Mary, divorced him in 1973. She married Harry Glenn Newman Jr., a man with dwarfism, who performed at carnivals under the title, "Smallest Man in the World."
14:16 Speaker 01 Well, so she went on to the smallest man in the world, you know? So she's staying within the community, though.
14:22 Speaker 00 Well, and I just wonder if that was probably pretty common, right? I got the feeling from the research that, you know, this was a community that really kind of stuck together.
14:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:36 Speaker 00 And so maybe for most of them, that's where the dating pool kind of started and ended.
14:44 Speaker 01 Wonder how small he was.
14:46 Speaker 00 I don't know. I'm sure we could figure that out on Google or something like that. If you want to stop the show and get into it. But if you're billing yourself as the smallest man in the world, I'm assuming you're pretty diminutive.
15:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:02 Speaker 00 And I can also explain what that word means after the show.
15:06 Speaker 01 Thanks.
15:08 Speaker 00 The two had one child together, Harry Glenn Newman, the third. Harry Newman would go on to perform at carnivals, calling himself the human blockhead and hammering nails into his nostrils as part of his act. Okay.
15:24 Speaker 01 Okay, yeah.
15:25 Speaker 00 Now, I understand, you know, Grady, right? He has a genetic condition. I understand being very, very tiny.
15:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:37 Speaker 00 And billing yourself based off of that. What I don't understand is how some of these performers get to the point where they can actually do the act? Like, how do you start to practice sword swallowing? You know? How do you start to practice nailing things into your nostrils? Or the person that swallows a light bulb?
16:01 Speaker 01 Well, you see, growing up, as kids, me included, we used to do some really dumb shit.
16:09 Speaker 00 And that's, that's how you figure out what you can and can't do?
16:12 Speaker 01 But we were told, you're never going to amount to anything. You keep that up. And so we changed. Where maybe somebody that was playing with nails and hammer into their head.
16:24 Speaker 00 Already doing it.
16:25 Speaker 01 They're like, I'm not going to stop. I think I can amount to something. And there you have it.
16:31 Speaker 00 They just, they already knew they could do it. So they just turned into making money. I, I got you.
16:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:36 Speaker 00 I got you. After the divorce, Styles took his daughters and moved to Pittsburgh, where he married his second wife, Barbara. They had one son together, Grady Styles, the third, who was born with that same genetic condition.
16:50 Speaker 01 Okay.
16:51 Speaker 00 Styles eventually incorporated his son and his daughter Kathy into his act. And they toured together as the lobster family.
17:01 Speaker 01 I wonder how far you go for this act? Like, do you, like, wear red outfits? Do you, like, do they, like, bring fish up on the stage? And?
17:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know. I think the, the crux of the act was the genetic condition.
17:21 Speaker 00 Right, the hands.
17:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:23 Speaker 00 I don't know what they were doing with the hands, or, you know, I'm not sure if fish was involved, or...
17:29 Speaker 01 You know, if you're gonna relate yourself to a lobster, you know?
17:32 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
17:32 Speaker 01 Like, at the end of the show, was there like a big pot on the stage?
17:38 Speaker 00 I doubt it, cuz I don't know who would care about that.
17:42 Speaker 01 I'm just thinking.
17:43 Speaker 00 And that's where we always get in trouble.
17:45 Speaker 01 That's true.
17:47 Speaker 00 Kathy recalled how Stiles wouldn't allow them to venture out into the carnival unless they wore gloves, so that carnival goers wouldn't get to see their hands for free.
17:58 Speaker 01 Well, hey, I mean, that's kinda smart, right?
18:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, cuz once you've seen them, why would you pay to see them?
18:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:04 Speaker 00 In September 1978, Stiles's daughter Donna, who at that point was 15, ran away with her 18-year-old boyfriend, Jack Lane, for six days. According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Stiles hired a P.I. to find her and worked three days in a carnival in Ohio to pay the fee. They returned to Pittsburgh and announced they were going to get married, because Donna was pregnant, which turned out not to be true.
18:33 Speaker 01 But probably trying to sell it to Dad, like, hey, I love him, and we're gonna have to be together, cuz I got a baby.
18:40 Speaker 00 Right, we're gonna have to get married. On September 27th, 1978, the day before the wedding, Donna, her stepmother, and Jack went shopping for Donna's wedding dress. When they returned, Stiles was sitting in the living room. Donna and her stepmother went outside to retrieve his wheelchair, and Stiles called Jack inside for a private talk. Donna heard two gunshots. Jack then walked out of the house and muttered, "He shot me", before falling to the ground. And he died in Donna's arms.
19:15 Speaker 01 I mean, think about it, you're... You think you're just gonna go in and have a conversation with your future father-in-law?
19:23 Speaker 00 Which is a pretty routine thing to do right before you get married.
19:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, we, we, and when I say we, just generally, there's that thing about dads, you know, taking the future son-in-law out on a walk or, you know, into their basement where they had their guns.
19:43 Speaker 00 I like to lay all mine out, clean them, you know, before we, while we're having the talk now. But yeah, you're right. I mean, hey, treat her right. Take care of my daughter, you know, things like that. I'm sure dads all around the, the world have had that talk at one point or another.
20:03 Speaker 01 I mean, I took my son-in-law right by the wood chipper while I was running.
20:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:08 Speaker 01 I made that very clear.
20:09 Speaker 00 Sure, that wasn't scary at all. And you had Fargo playing in the background.
20:14 Speaker 01 Exactly.
20:15 Speaker 00 Donna explained to police that her dad wasn't happy about the marriage and only consented to it after she and Jack ran away together. When giving his statement, Stiles said he heard talk in the street that Jack was saying nasty things about Donna. So obviously Gibbs, we talk a lot about murder, you know, on this podcast, but I mean, what are the reasons here? You know, Grady's not happy about this wedding. And then apparently he's saying that he heard that this kid was saying, quote, nasty things about his daughter.
20:54 Speaker 01 Well, which any dad would not be happy about, right? Talking about my daughter saying nasty things about her, but am I gonna kill you?
21:03 Speaker 00 Right. You're gonna shoot somebody and kill them over that? Stiles's murder trial started in February 1979. The prosecution argued the murder was premeditated, while the defense argued that love and compassion drove Stiles to kill his daughter's fiance. The jury heard that Stiles admitted to a detective that he shot Jack because he had no alternative. Donna testified that she was with her dad when he purchased the gun he used to kill Jack Lane. When Stiles bought the pistol, he jokingly said he was going to use it on Jack.
21:40 Speaker 01 Well, see, you can say jokingly, right? But if you're sitting in that courtroom, you're hearing premeditation.
21:47 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I mean, there's you technically, you can joke about anything, but obviously there are things you should not joke about. And one of those is when you're buying a gun that you're buying it to use it on somebody.
22:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:04 Speaker 00 That is just not something you should joke about.
22:06 Speaker 01 And how do you say you didn't have any other option but to kill him?
22:11 Speaker 00 Well, let's face it, Grady's in a tough spot here, right? It's not up for debate on whether or not he pulled the trigger. That part's not in question. So he has to, along with his defense team, craft a narrative as to why. Donna conceded at trial that Grady bought the gun before she and Jack decided to marry. She also testified that he eventually consented to the marriage, and she disliked living with her father because he made her babysit constantly and didn't let her out enough. Prosecution witnesses testified that Stiles threatened to kill Jack several times
22:51 Speaker 00 and that he purchased the gun to carry out his plans because he didn't want Jack to marry Donna. Defense attorney Anthony DeSello emphasized the love and compassion Stiles had for his children and that he obtained a court order to assume custody of three children from a previous one.
23:11 Speaker 01 Okay, so he loved all his kids.
23:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, and that could be true, but I don't know what that has to do with him murdering Jack. I mean, yeah, you love your daughter. You love her so much that you feel like you have to kill this guy she wants to marry?
23:32 Speaker 01 Just so that she doesn't marry him.
23:33 Speaker 00 I guess what it shows me is what few options maybe they had as far as putting together a defense, right? They were kind of up against it.
23:46 Speaker 01 Pretty limited.
23:48 Speaker 00 ADA Robert Paul Vinkler told the jury in closing arguments that police predicted Styles would receive a sympathy verdict because of his condition and because he suffered from kidney disease and emphysema from smoking 60 cigarettes a day.
24:06 Speaker 01 Well, that's a lot of cigarettes. I can't remember how many cigarettes are in a pack.
24:10 Speaker 00 20.
24:11 Speaker 01 20. So three packs a day.
24:13 Speaker 00 Three packs a day is not good. I mean, actually, no cigarettes a day are good, but three packs is a lot.
24:22 Speaker 01 I just kind of visualizing like the carny world back then, I just felt like maybe there's a lot of cigarettes going on.
24:31 Speaker 00 Well, we're also talking about the 70s.
24:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:34 Speaker 00 Right. Smoking was much more accepted.
24:37 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
24:38 Speaker 00 In the 1970s. I can remember being at McDonald's trying to eat my Happy Meal while my parents were smoking at the table.
24:47 Speaker 01 Yeah. Taking a cigarette out of their mouth while they took a bite and put it back in their mouth. Yeah.
24:53 Speaker 00 On February 22nd, 1979, Grady Styles was found guilty of third degree murder. On April 30th of that year, he was sentenced to 15 years probation because no state institution at that time could care for an inmate with his condition.
25:12 Speaker 01 I just wonder what type of care they would need to be able to perform to take him into the jail.
25:19 Speaker 00 Yeah. None of the research really elaborated on that, but you know, let's go back. Third degree murder and then a sentence of 15 years probation. He shot and killed a guy and is not going to do time.
25:35 Speaker 01 Basically, we're going to send you back to your, your home.
25:39 Speaker 00 My Gibsonville.
25:40 Speaker 01 Yeah. And we're keeping an eye on you.
25:44 Speaker 00 Keep your nose clean. I mean, that's basically what they told him.
25:47 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, it's insulting to Jack's family.
25:52 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely. You'd be furious.
25:55 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
25:56 Speaker 00 If somebody killed a family member and they got probation. In 1989, Styles remarried Mary Theresa. After he divorced his second wife, he promised Mary he was done drinking. But according to Mary, two weeks later, he was back to the same old Grady.
26:14 Speaker 01 Shocking.
26:16 Speaker 00 Is it?
26:16 Speaker 01 No.
26:17 Speaker 00 I mean, there are some people who change.
26:20 Speaker 01 Oh, of course. Yeah.
26:22 Speaker 00 But there are some people who never change. They tell you they're gonna change. They may change for a short period of time.
26:30 Speaker 01 I think I'm really happy when people do change that have an addiction like that.
26:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, sure.
26:36 Speaker 01 But am I, am I ever gonna be shocked when someone that has that says they're gonna change, but can't really change? Just anymore, I'm just not shocked by it. Because I know addictions are so strong.
26:49 Speaker 00 Oh, they, they just, they grip you. They take hold of you. Styles and his family continued going out on the road. They had a 10 and 1 performance with other sideshow performers and animals, but Styles was the main attraction. The LA Times reported that Styles would be drunk on stage and would lunge at the audience to scare them.
27:12 Speaker 01 Which probably added to the, um.
27:15 Speaker 00 The show in some way.
27:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, my gosh, did you see the lobster guy?
27:23 Speaker 00 Lunging at all of us? Meanwhile, this is a man who killed an 18-year-old guy.
27:30 Speaker 01 Right.
27:31 Speaker 00 Shot him dead. Behind the scenes, Style continued abusing his family. Mary later reported that Style sexually abused her, tried to smother her with a pillow, and one morning woke her up with a butcher knife to her throat. She quoted him as saying, "One of these days, I'm going to kill you and your family", before he dropped the knife and crawled away.
27:56 Speaker 01 Did you just say crawl?
27:58 Speaker 00 Yes, he crawled away.
28:00 Speaker 01 Okay, okay.
28:01 Speaker 00 I mean, he could not walk very well, right? He had to use a wheelchair. But I, I just wanna, you know, kind of visualize this, right? If you're Mary, you've got this guy who labels himself as lobster boy, lobster man, whatever it is. A knife in between his, his two digits. I guess you would call them.
28:30 Speaker 01 Claw.
28:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, he's threatening you, telling he's gonna, telling you he's gonna kill you and your family, and then he drops the knife and he just crawls away. I mean. Scary stuff.
28:41 Speaker 01 You know, the problem I have with this guy is that he talks about how he loves his family, very compassionate about his family, loves my, you know, loves his family. But then he does this stuff, you know, he abuses them.
28:57 Speaker 01 Says terrible things like, one of these days, I'm gonna kill you all. But yet, you're supposed to love them all? I don't, it's confusing.
29:07 Speaker 00 In the fall of 1992, after coming home to Gibsonton for the offseason, Mary decided something had to be done. She started planning to have Stiles killed with her son, Harry Glenn Newman III. She gave Harry $1,500 to hire someone. He selected their neighbor, 17-year-old Christopher Wyant, who allegedly had gang ties.
29:35 Speaker 01 I'm thinking 1,500 is not a lot of money, but maybe in the carny world, you know, that buys you a lot.
29:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I don't know how much carnival workers make. I have no idea, but regardless, right? $1,500 is not a lot of money when you compare it to someone's life. It, it just, it just isn't. On the night of November 29th, 1992, Stiles was watching TV inside his home. After hearing three knocks on the window, Mary and her son slipped out under the guise of visiting relatives nearby. The hitman entered the home and shot Stiles twice in the head. When they called the police, the family claimed they heard gunshots and saw a man running away from the scene.
30:24 Speaker 00 Because of inconsistencies in their statements, though, Harry Newman was brought in for a polygraph, which he failed. He then gave a full confession and said it was a contract killing orchestrated by his mother.
30:38 Speaker 01 Well, he didn't wait very long to start tossing people underneath the bus.
30:42 Speaker 00 No, I think he, he caved, right? Pretty quickly. The motive was that Stiles was physically abusive. And Mary feared that he was going to kill them. And I think some of that fear was justified, right? He actually told her, I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna kill your kids. Police also charged a man named Dennis Cow with conspiracy to commit first degree murder. Cow received a portion of the money and helped Christopher Wyatt buy a gun. He led the police to the weapon, which was buried in the woods. So we said $1,500, but he wasn't even getting the whole 1,500. He had to split that with another guy.
31:23 Speaker 01 And they had to buy a gun.
31:24 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. So some of the money had to go towards buying a gun.
31:28 Speaker 01 What would you do it for? A couple hundred bucks?
31:31 Speaker 00 Shocking, right? That people would even, number one, entertain killing anyone that wasn't in self-defense. Right? I can understand if you're gonna kill me, if you're gonna try to kill me, I'm gonna have to defend myself. But if you come to me and say, hey, I need you to take care of somebody for me. First of all, the show is over. Our friendship is over and I'm calling the police.
31:58 Speaker 01 Just like that.
31:59 Speaker 00 Just like that. So don't, don't try it. In June 1993, a judge ruled that Mary Stiles and Harry Newman could argue self-defense because of the physical abuse they endured. This marked the first time a Florida judge allowed battered woman syndrome as a defense in a murder for hire case.
32:21 Speaker 01 Well, I think she had a, based on what I know, seems like she had a good cause to use that as her defense.
32:28 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, you know, this term battered woman syndrome, it was kind of coined in the late 70s. It's when it started. Today, it's not a formal diagnosis in the, you know, the DSM. But the phrase is still used in the fields of psychology, therapy and law. But this was the phrase that was used in the original newspaper reporting from the 90s. Mary's attorney, Arnold Levine, said at the time, is quoted by the Tampa Bay Times, "When you view the life situation that these people had, they were justified in doing what they did." And one of the things that struck me about this case.
33:13 Speaker 00 Right? You had Grady Stiles who shot and killed someone.
33:17 Speaker 01 Right.
33:18 Speaker 00 And I think pretty fair to say got away with it.
33:21 Speaker 01 They only convicted him of third degree, but then 15 years probation?
33:26 Speaker 00 Only probation. Yeah. So, I mean, to me, that's getting away with murder. But then he's murdered. And now the perpetrators behind his murder are on that same path, right? How do they justify what they did? And what is a court going to decide? Prosecutors said Stiles' physical disability called this defense into question. Stiles' family said his physical disabilities did not prevent him from harming them. His daughter Kathy recalled how her father once broke her jaw and almost caused her to miscarry.
34:09 Speaker 00 She also described how she had to perform when her father was too drunk. And that when he drank, he would threaten to kill them.
34:17 Speaker 01 I mean, we know he didn't have a issue coming out of his wheelchair. There were a few comments made that he would get really upset and he would stand up out of his wheelchair.
34:27 Speaker 00 And lunge and maybe later on in life, you know, that it wasn't the same. But I, I did watch some things about, you know, Grady Stiles Jr. And it was said that he had like real strength in his hand.
34:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:46 Speaker 00 He could use his hands to inflict damage upon people. And he did use them against his family.
34:53 Speaker 01 Just super strong.
34:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, he was strong. Kathy told the Tampa Bay Times before the trial started. If anybody had to die, he deserved to. He was a very mean and vicious person. I mean, this is his daughter.
35:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:09 Speaker 00 Can you imagine your daughter saying something like that about you?
35:14 Speaker 01 I can't imagine breaking my daughter's jaw.
35:17 Speaker 00 No. So, you know, from that standpoint, maybe it's warranted. You know, I, I do think he was a ruthless guy. Vicious.
35:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, of course. I mean, there's several people in his family that have said that. And this is a guy that killed somebody because he didn't want Jack to marry his daughter.
35:37 Speaker 00 But did he deserve to die? And see, I think that's going to be, you know, the big question for the court. The three defendants went to trial on July 19th, 1993. All were charged with first degree murder and conspiracy. Prosecutors argued that although Mary Stiles and Harry Newman pleaded not guilty, they acknowledged their part in the murder when they were questioned by police. By the time of trial, Mary claimed she didn't remember these statements. Her attorney noted that her memory was affected by PTSD. Christopher Wyatt had also pleaded not guilty and declined to talk to police.
36:18 Speaker 00 His attorney planned to argue he intended to commit robbery, not murder. On July 21st, a judge declared a mistrial after a detective testified that one of the suspects took a lie detector test, which is inadmissible in court. Christopher Wyatt's retrial started on January 18th, 1994. The jury heard that in the first murder plan, Stiles was supposed to be shot in a fake robbery after he left his regular bar in Gibsonton. When that didn't work, Wyatt had to go to Plan B, which was killing Stiles in his home. But the defense urged jurors to pay attention to discrepancies and witness testimony.
37:03 Speaker 00 On January 19th, Christopher Wyatt was found guilty of second degree murder and conspiracy. On February 22nd, he was sentenced to 27 years in prison. On May 19th, accomplice Dennis Cow pleaded guilty to accessory after the fact and was sentenced to three and a half years in prison. And just think about that, accessory after the fact.
37:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:29 Speaker 00 He gets three and a half years. Grady Stiles shot and killed a man and got probation.
37:35 Speaker 01 Went back to his house.
37:36 Speaker 00 Now, I know, obviously, we're talking quite a few years difference, but it definitely shows you how things changed over time.
37:46 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
37:47 Speaker 00 Jury selection for Mary Stiles' retrial was completed on July 11th, 1994. The defense acknowledged that Mary paid $1,500 to have her husband killed, but they argued that she resorted to violence after suffering years of abuse. Defense attorney Arnold Levine told the jury, because of the cumulative years of abuse, Mary Stiles believed she was in imminent fear of harm or death. She had no alternative but to participate in this unthinkable act. Levine said about Grady Stiles, he had no legs. He had stumps, but in spite of these deformities, he was a powerful, powerful person.
38:31 Speaker 00 He would pop off the wheelchair, onto his fingers, scoot across an area, and in a drunken state, beat on someone.
38:39 Speaker 01 So his disability wasn't going to stop him from doing anything, it sounds like.
38:44 Speaker 00 Well, it certainly didn't stop him, apparently, from being physically abusive. I mean, that's, you know, quite a visual that this defense attorney is painting.
38:58 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
38:59 Speaker 00 You know, imagine this guy hopping off of the chair and kind of propelling himself on, by his fingers and then like jumping up on somebody and beating on them and.
39:13 Speaker 01 He had to be super strong to be able to pull that off.
39:17 Speaker 00 The jury also heard about Stiles' prior murder conviction, showing his propensity for violence. The defense recounted that in October 1992, the family returned to Gibsonton after months of touring. Stiles' violent streak worsened and Mary gave her son Harry $1,500 to go out and find someone to kill him. He hired Christopher Wyatt. And that's interesting, right? They are not, the defense is in trying to say that this didn't happen. They're agreeing that it happened exactly as it did. I think what they're hanging their hat on is why it happened.
39:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
40:00 Speaker 00 The prosecution argued that Mary planned the murder for several weeks. Outside court, Mary described how alcohol changed Stiles. She recalled that he would use his hands to twist her breasts and poke her eyes. She said, per the Tampa Bay Times, he'd wake up at eight. He was sweet. He'd start drinking about 10. By the time he came out of his bedroom about one, he was somebody different.
40:27 Speaker 01 Chuck Olden Hyde.
40:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it sounds like it, but can we also think about what this day is like? Get up at eight, you're in your bedroom, you start drinking at 10, you don't come out of your bedroom until one and by that time, maybe you're plastered. Kind of a strange day and for me at least, it's not how I want my day to go.
40:48 Speaker 01 I think for most people, that would be a weird start of your day. I mean, I get it, you know, he's went through a few things with his genetic condition and I'm sure life wasn't always easy.
41:03 Speaker 00 No, no, I'm sure it wasn't. He also probably worked maybe some strange hours because of the kind of carnival life. Mary said she didn't want to leave him because of her children and she knew they wouldn't have anywhere to hide from him. Christopher Wyatt testified that Harry Newman approached him in October 1992 to take care of a problem with my stepfather. He was paid $1,500 to kill Grady Stiles and his wife, Mary, wanted the job done quickly. So again, there's no disputing any of this by the defense, by the testimony of the defendants. They're being honest, they're laying it all out there.
41:48 Speaker 01 Well, and I think, you know, he's saying my mom wants it done quickly because she's tired of being on the. Other end of the abuse.
41:55 Speaker 00 The receiving end, yeah. Wyatt testified that Harry Newman told him, "The murder's gotta happen tonight. My mom wants it done tonight." During the trial, the judge made a surprising ruling that Mary could not use battered spouse syndrome as a defense unless she got on the stand and confessed. But the next day, the judge reversed his ruling, declaring that Mary had the right to remain silent if she chose to. And I can only think that, you know, maybe the judge over the night contemplated on this and the legality of it, and they changed their mind.
42:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:37 Speaker 00 Harry Glenn Newman Jr., Mary's ex-husband, was the first defense witness. He recalled going to Stiles's home in Pennsylvania in 1975 to visit two of Mary's children. Stiles pulled a gun on him. Then circus performer Paul Fishball, known as the Fat Man, walked in and pointed the shotgun at Newman. They managed to escape unharmed.
43:02 Speaker 01 So you got the lobster guy?
43:05 Speaker 00 Pulling a gun.
43:06 Speaker 01 Pulling a gun.
43:07 Speaker 00 The Fat Man's got a shotgun.
43:08 Speaker 01 Fat Man's got a shotgun and the shortest man?
43:12 Speaker 00 In the world.
43:12 Speaker 01 Smallest man in the world.
43:14 Speaker 00 Is somehow able to get away.
43:15 Speaker 01 Get away.
43:16 Speaker 00 I mean, that must have been quite a sight, to be honest with you. The visual alone is, I don't want to say humorous, because it's a very dangerous situation, but you have three carnies.
43:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:31 Speaker 00 Two of which are pointing a gun at another.
43:35 Speaker 01 Well, he probably just ducked out of the way.
43:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, which might have not been that hard for him. I don't know. Despite the judge's reversal of his decision, Mary Stiles got on the witness stand. She testified that she divorced Stiles in 1973, after he knocked her down, tore off her pantyhose, and attempted to rip out her IUD. She also testified that their honeymoon phase after she remarried him lasted only two weeks.
44:04 Speaker 01 Well, I'm just gonna go back to what you said, that in one point, he knocked her down and attempted to rip out the IUD. I mean, think about how brutal that is.
44:18 Speaker 01 Especially knowing the condition he had.
44:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, but this is before she divorces him for the first time.
44:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, I know.
44:28 Speaker 00 Now, he must have really sweet talked her, right, into him being a changed man for her to, to come back to him. And according to her, that lasted for about two weeks and then it went back downhill again.
44:45 Speaker 01 Back to the old, uh, the old way he was.
44:48 Speaker 00 Mary testified, he kept telling me that one of these days he was going to kill me. I just couldn't take the beatings no more and the fear. Days before his death, Stiles threatened her with a butcher knife to the throat. Two weeks before he was killed, she told her son, Harry, that something had to be done. She had $1,500 saved up. Mary couldn't recall telling Harry to hire Christopher Wyatt. Mary testified, I've just blocked it out. It was so terrible, it was better to forget it. Her attorney, Arnold Levine, noted that Mary had a vision of leaving the money in an envelope a week before the murder.
45:29 Speaker 00 He said, she's struggling to remember exactly what her role was in the murder, but she does acknowledge having a role in it. And that was kind of my point, right? It's not like these people are saying, hey, we didn't do this.
45:42 Speaker 01 Right.
45:43 Speaker 00 They're admitting that they did it. Now, what their role exactly was, okay, maybe that's a little fuzzy. During cross-examination, Mary said Stiles had not threatened her the night of the murder, and she wasn't in imminent danger that night, but he kept saying, I'm gonna kill you, but the timing's just not right. Every day I knew it was getting closer and closer.
46:07 Speaker 01 You know, unless you're in that situation, you probably can't feel what that is like.
46:14 Speaker 00 Or what it would do to you, what toll it would take on you.
46:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, just the emotional abuse of that.
46:21 Speaker 00 Yeah. My thought, though, is that this admission.
46:26 Speaker 00 That she wasn't in imminent danger that night, that could be huge for a jury.
46:32 Speaker 01 It could be, yeah.
46:34 Speaker 00 Judge William Fuente took over in the middle of the trial because the original judge was diagnosed with tuberculosis. Judge Fuente temporarily dismissed the jury so he could listen to arguments over whether he should allow experts to testify that Mary was a battered woman who killed in self-defense. The prosecution argued that no other court in the country recognized self-defense in a murder-for-hire case. Mary had no proof she was in imminent danger at the time she plotted the murder. The defense asked the judge to let the jurors make up their own minds on whether Mary was in imminent danger.
47:15 Speaker 00 The judge decided the defense could not use battered woman syndrome as a legal defense, then later said he would reconsider and make another ruling.
47:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm guessing it must have been a really tough time, you know, to be one of the first courts to allow this type of defense.
47:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think that had been used as a defense before, but it sounds like it hadn't been used in a murder-for-hire plot before.
47:50 Speaker 01 And I think the judge is having doubts about it, right? He's struggling with it.
47:56 Speaker 00 Well, as did the previous judge. Kathy Berry testified that her father woke up most mornings and immediately started drinking. She said, "He was like Satan himself, very cruel and cold-hearted and sadistic." She recounted an incident where her father hit her when she was seven months pregnant and she had to get an emergency C-section.
48:18 Speaker 01 I think that's when he broke her jaw.
48:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. Donna Miles also testified about how her father shot her fiance. Donna told the jury that she begged her mom to leave her father. Mary appeared very rundown, nervous and scared in the weeks leading up to Stiles's death. The following day, the judge ruled that the defense would be permitted to use the battered spouse defense, which would allow expert testimony. And it's a huge ruling, right? Whether or not this defense can be used.
48:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, because it's one, obviously for Mary, but it's going to set the stage for future cases.
49:01 Speaker 00 Well, it could create a precedent. Yeah, but you know, for this trial, okay, now we're going to have experts come in. It's going to change the whole tenor of the trial. Clinical psychologist Sidney Merran testified that Mary viewed herself as passive, feminine, inferior, controlled by others and nurturing. In one psychological test, Mary was shown a drawing of a woman alone on a bridge and was asked to create a storyline. Mary said the man and woman had a fight and he was looking for her, but she hoped he didn't find her. According to Merran, her response revealed that she was a woman whose fear
49:42 Speaker 00 of her husband's violence shadowed her entire outlook on life. Now, I understand how you could come to that determination, but I could also understand how someone might be able to craft a story because they know what they need. They need these clinical psychologists to stand up for them and say, hey, this, this woman was in fear for her life. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying I could see a scenario.
50:14 Speaker 01 Sure. Because you know what outcome you're trying to achieve.
50:17 Speaker 00 Yes. Clinical sociologist Marty Loring testified that Stiles's abusive pets was a bad sign and cited research suggesting people who abuse animals often abuse people. Mary told Loring that her husband threw a kitten from a moving vehicle and often punched the family dog.
50:38 Speaker 01 Okay, just a mean guy.
50:40 Speaker 00 You know, one way to get the jury maybe to view this guy as even a bigger scumbag, bring animals into it.
50:50 Speaker 00 You've already painted him as an abuser of the family. And now you're saying that he also abused the pets. Loring said Mary was caught in a trap of abuse. Styles would lash out, apologize, and then build up to another explosion. She described Mary's battered woman syndrome as much more severe than most cases I've seen. And I think that cycle is probably not that unusual for abusers.
51:23 Speaker 01 No.
51:24 Speaker 00 You know, they lash out and then they apologize. They say, oh, I'm never going to do it again. And then it builds back up and then they do it again.
51:33 Speaker 01 I mean, there's people listening right now that are shaking their head. Yep, been there, seen that, been through it.
51:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:41 Speaker 01 Know what you guys are saying.
51:42 Speaker 00 Which is sad, but unfortunately very true.
51:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:45 Speaker 00 Betty Tanner, a director of the International Independent Showmen's Association, testified that the showman's club, Grady Styles' regular bar, didn't serve alcohol before 1:00 P. M. on Sundays, which contradicted the defense's claim that Styles began drinking early that morning at the club. And I thought that was a little strange because I thought they said he woke up and was drinking in the bedroom. But maybe that was just most days he did that.
52:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:16 Speaker 00 And this day, they said he went to the club. I don't know. In closing arguments, the prosecution portrayed Mary as a calculating wife who raised money to pay for murder. She wanted Styles dead so she could inherit his sideshow acts and other assets.
52:33 Speaker 01 I don't really believe that, though. I think that would end up being a benefit of the murder, but.
52:40 Speaker 00 Well, I understand why they're making that claim, though. This was a premeditated murder for hire. That part is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not she did it because she was in fear for her life. She thought this man who she said was abusing her was going to kill her. Defense attorney Arnold Levine argued that because of the cumulative toll of violence, Mary had the right to kill her husband, even if he didn't abuse her on the day of his death. He said battered wife syndrome doesn't come from a day.
53:24 Speaker 00 It comes from a hundred days, a thousand days.
53:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a buildup of all that.
53:31 Speaker 00 On July 27th, 1994, Mary Stiles was found guilty of manslaughter with a firearm and conspiracy to commit murder. Kathy Berry spoke to the Tampa Bay Times. After her mother was taken to jail to await sentencing, she said, "Stiles ruined our lives when we were younger. He's ruining our lives when we're older. My mother protects her own life and her family's life, and she gets justice? When is the hurt going to stop for my family?" The Times spoke to Mary the day after the verdict. She emphasized that she had no other choice, saying, "Am I supposed to lay down and die?"
54:13 Speaker 00 Then they would have said, "Oh, domestic violence. Let me tell you, it would have happened. It was just a matter of time."
54:22 Speaker 01 I think she's right.
54:24 Speaker 00 She said she hadn't expected to be acquitted, but she was surprised by the judge's decision to send her to jail. She assumed she would be allowed to remain on house arrest, as she had for months leading up to the trial.
54:39 Speaker 01 And probably thinking about how when her husband killed
54:43 Speaker 00 Someone.
54:44 Speaker 01 Shoot your son-in-law, you know, he was on probation for 15 years.
54:50 Speaker 00 And there was no abuse involved in that one.
54:52 Speaker 01 Right.
54:53 Speaker 00 Opening arguments in Harry Newman's trial started on August 3rd, 1994. Defense attorney Peter Catania compared Harry to a prisoner of war who had no choice but to kill his captor. He and his mother believed Stiles would eventually kill them. He also told the jury that Newman, who was 20, had the intellectual and emotional maturity of a 13-year-old, saying, "This man's view of the world is not like yours or mine. It's very narrow." Mary gave virtually the same identical testimony at her son's trial, chronicling years of abuse inflicted by her husband. But defense psychologists testified that Harry
55:37 Speaker 00 had the capacity of a 10- or 11-year-old. Harry started his testimony by describing the good times they had with Stiles after the wedding in 1989, but this only lasted a few days. He said, "The first two weeks, we were all together, and it was good, like a family should be, something like you would see in a storybook. Then Stiles started drinking again. Stiles repeatedly threatened that he had killed before, and he would do it again when the time was right. He even listed the order in which he planned to kill them, and threatened to track them down and kill them if they ever tried to leave. Harry lived in
56:17 Speaker 00 constant fear for his mother. Any attempts he made to intercede when Stiles was abusing her only made things worse." And I think this is an important point to make, if true, because, you know, you might ask the question, "But she was so scared of him. Why didn't she just leave?" Right? That question does come up in many cases. But as we've learned over the years, it's not always quite that simple. Right. You know, if this person is saying, "Hey, if you leave me, that's not going to change anything. I'm gonna track you down. I'm still going to kill you."
56:59 Speaker 01 And where's she gonna go? Where's she gonna stay? What about all the kids? You know, I mean, and what would that mean if as a mom to her, if she would leave her kids behind in a bad situation, but she runs off to be, you know, for her to be safe?
57:16 Speaker 00 And leaves them there to be abused. Yeah, I get what you're saying. Harry admitted to meeting Christopher Wyant and paying him to take care of Stiles. Harry said he didn't know and didn't care what Wyant had planned. The only thing I knew was that I needed help to get out of there. On August 9th, 1994, Harry Newman was found guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy. His family was stunned that Harry was found guilty of the most serious charge out of all three of the defendants.
57:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, he didn't even pull the trigger.
57:54 Speaker 00 And he wasn't the mastermind behind the whole thing.
57:57 Speaker 01 No.
57:57 Speaker 00 He was kind of, if you look at it, the intermediary.
58:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, he was a middleman.
58:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, the middleman. On August 29th, 1994, Mary Stiles was sentenced to 12 years in prison with five years probation. She told the court she would serve her time, securing the knowledge that Grady Stiles could no longer harm her or her children. She said, "My husband was going to kill the family. I believe it from the bottom of my heart. I believe that it was just a matter of time. I'm sorry, but my family is safe now." Mary received concurrent sentences for manslaughter and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. She had already served almost two years in jail or under house arrest.
58:42 Speaker 00 Her defense attorney estimated that she would end up serving no more than a third of the remaining 10 years and could be out of prison in as little as a year and a half. So he's saying what? 10 years, but she may do three, three and a half, but she's already done almost two.
59:02 Speaker 01 Right, where she was going through the trial.
59:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. Judge William Fuente told Mary that he fretted a lot before reaching his decision, saying, "You've led an abused life, no question. You were the victim of violence and physical abuse for many years. I can't tell you how much I've concerned myself about it." He briefly referred to his own experience with domestic violence before announcing his sentencing decision outside court. He said his father-in-law shot and killed his mother-in-law eight years prior, and that experience helped him better understand Mary's situation. On October 14th, 1994, Harry Newman was sentenced to life in prison without parole for at least 25 years.
59:48 Speaker 00 According to Florida Department of Corrections records, Mary was released from prison in December 2000. Christopher Wyant was released in August 2009. Harry Newman died in prison in March 2014.
1:00:04 Speaker 01 Life in prison, man. Seems extreme for this situation.
1:00:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I think that's what we need to talk about in our wrap-up for sure. In 2014, Grady Stiles III spoke to the Huffington Post about his father. He said, "I'm not a fan of my dad as a person. My father was racist and abusive. When I cried, he was like, 'I'll give you a reason to cry.'" He also claimed the murder didn't play out exactly how it was reported in court. He said, "What actually happened was my mother and my dad had gotten in another fight as usual, and my mother had made the comment that something needed to be done. My brother had overheard that and went to the neighbor kid and told him that something had to be done.
1:00:50 Speaker 00 My brother thought that meant scaring him or beating my dad up or something to make him realize that he was going to lose his family. A little while later, my dad was shot." Grady Stiles III also expressed one thing he wished he could say to his dad. "Thank you for showing me who not to be, and maybe you can appreciate who I became because of that. You were a drunken bastard, but you were my dad."
1:01:17 Speaker 01 I mean, think about that statement. I mean, he's saying a lot right there.
1:01:21 Speaker 00 Yes, I don't think there's any doubt, Gibbs. Grady Stiles Jr. was a terrible human being.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:30 Speaker 00 He was extremely abusive. He shot and killed an 18-year-old boy.
1:01:36 Speaker 01 Because he didn't like him.
1:01:37 Speaker 00 Because he didn't want him to marry his daughter.
1:01:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:40 Speaker 00 But as we wrap this episode up, you know, I'm so conflicted.
1:01:47 Speaker 00 You know, on the one hand, it does seem as though there was premeditation. This was a murder for hire, right? So by those facts alone, Mary was kind of the mastermind behind the whole thing. She got her son involved, who then, you know, paid money to somebody else to kill Grady. But then on the flip side, I do believe that he was extremely abusive. I do believe that, you know, Mary and even the kids were fearful of him.
1:02:23 Speaker 01 For sure, yeah.
1:02:24 Speaker 00 So I don't know. I would not have wanted to be on the jury for this case.
1:02:32 Speaker 01 I just feel for everybody in this, right? Of the people that were abused.
1:02:37 Speaker 00 Well, nobody won.
1:02:38 Speaker 01 Right.
1:02:39 Speaker 00 Nobody won in this case. You could say, well, you know, they're no longer being abused by Grady.
1:02:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:47 Speaker 00 But their mother had to go to jail, right? Harry went to jail and died in jail.
1:02:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, man.
1:02:55 Speaker 00 So there's no doubt it affected the, the family negatively.
1:03:00 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:03:01 Speaker 00 I just wonder how much of this was, you know, kind of letter of the law versus understanding that Mary was being abused, but thinking, okay, she wasn't in imminent danger. She wasn't being abused at the time he was killed.
1:03:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:22 Speaker 00 Because I think that would have been probably much easier for a jury to say, well, yeah, that, that was self-defense. He was, he was abusing her at that moment. She got a gun or a knife or whatever it was.
1:03:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:36 Speaker 00 And that might've worked out a lot differently. I just wonder how much the premeditation and the, the kind of murder for hire went into it.
1:03:44 Speaker 01 But I just, I mean, do you sit and wait for that to happen? It, it just seems, and I'm not trying to champion the fact that you should murder somebody. I'm just saying to sit there and wait. For what you know is going to come and hope that you can defend yourself at that moment versus I'm not going to sit. I'm going to take matters into my own hands.
1:04:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, now I think if you're the prosecution, you're probably arguing that here's all the things you could have done, right? You could have called the police. You could have taken your kids and left. And I'm sure they probably did, you know, outline all of those different things. But like we said, some of those things, they're not black and white. They're not as easy as they seem, but it's part of what makes this case so fascinating. That's it for our episode on Grady Styles Jr. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:04:40 Speaker 01 Yes, hear it.
1:04:41 Speaker 02 Hi, Mike and Gibby. I've listened to you guys for years. Team Gibby here. I had to take a break a few years ago because of a case that you guys covered that was about a child. I don't even remember the name because I try to put it out of my mind. But I love true crime and I love your guys' podcast. I don't want to give my name because I am listening to things from, you know, several years ago. I think it's 2024. And I live in Indianapolis and I work with someone who lives in the home of her baumweister or baumweister.
1:05:19 Speaker 02 And I have become fascinated with that case. And I don't know yet if you guys, if you guys did an episode on that, but I'm looking forward to it if you have. Thank you for the podcast. You do a great job. Keep your own time ticking.
1:05:38 Speaker 00 All right. Thanks for the voicemail. We definitely did do an episode on her baumweister. It was a crazy story.
1:05:45 Speaker 01 It was.
1:05:46 Speaker 00 To be sure, but it was way back. I want to say it was very early on, maybe 2017 ish?
1:05:54 Speaker 01 Maybe, yeah.
1:05:55 Speaker 00 It was very early on in the podcast.
1:05:56 Speaker 01 For sure it was, yeah. Didn't I just see a story not too long ago, maybe like in the last year, year and a half that they actually went out to that property and started digging again?
1:06:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think there's been stuff in the news somewhat recently. But I don't know, you know, what else has come out about it. We also had some mailbag. Joe Mose sent us his new CD. Matty sent us in some cool Roswell Alien keychains. And David Kolsick sent us his new true crime book called 1926 Murder in America.
1:06:29 Speaker 01 Wow, thank you, guys.
1:06:30 Speaker 00 Apparently 1926 was one of the deadliest years of all of them.
1:06:35 Speaker 01 Well, I was not alive, as you probably think I was.
1:06:38 Speaker 00 No, I was not. I was not going to put you alive in 1926. You came along at least 10, 20 years later. I don't know what the exact year was, but all right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:06:53 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:06:54 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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