Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Frank McAlister About this episode 19-year-old Frank McAlister was reported missing on May 7th, 1993, by his fiancée, who told police he left the house to meet friends and never came back. Investigators suspected foul play when they found blood in the vehicle Frank was driving.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Frank McAlister. Both Frank’s family and authorities suspected Frank was killed by the three people who last saw him alive, but his case went cold for almost twenty-five years, until one of the suspects revealed everything in a shocking TV interview.
You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime
Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information
An Emash Digital production
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 0:34 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 470 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:45 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing okay.
0:46 Speaker 00 Okay, me too.
0:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:48 Speaker 00 For some reason you keep not asking me how I'm doing because you don't care.
0:52 Speaker 01 It's coming around.
0:54 Speaker 00 So we just got done recording our Patreon episode, which will have dropped Saturday night. It's on Aaron Davis. This is a really good guy, young kid, like 19 years old. He had just passed this exam and he was going to visit his best friend and then he was going to go on and visit his girlfriend. But the day after he visited his friend, his car was found abandoned and police, you know, they pretty quickly identified his friend as the main suspect.
1:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, give it a listen.
1:30 Speaker 00 But also, you know, in the beginning of that, we talked about, you know, carrying the new podcast desk down into the basement.
1:37 Speaker 01 We did.
1:37 Speaker 00 So the studio is coming along. It should be in a couple of weeks that we are ready to put out the first, second episode of the week and I hope people are getting excited for that.
1:49 Speaker 01 I know we are.
1:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, we definitely are. We also have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the murder of Tracy Nielsen. This goes all the way back to 1981.
2:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was just so wee little lad.
2:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, her husband Jeff returned home from a day of classes to find his wife Tracy dead from multiple staff wars. And they'd only been married like five months, so.
2:16 Speaker 01 What a nightmare.
2:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, definitely check that out. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Priscilla Gale.
2:21 Speaker 01 Hey, Priscilla.
2:22 Speaker 00 Nick Robinson.
2:23 Speaker 01 What's going on, Nick?
2:24 Speaker 00 Laurel H.
2:25 Speaker 01 Hey, Laura.
2:26 Speaker 00 Brian McKinney.
2:27 Speaker 01 What's happening, Brian?
2:28 Speaker 00 Katie Sherwood.
2:29 Speaker 01 Hey, good old Katie.
2:30 Speaker 00 J S.
2:31 Speaker 01 What's happening, Jay?
2:32 Speaker 00 Kim Rosicky.
2:34 Speaker 01 Ah, Kim.
2:35 Speaker 00 Mandy Guireman.
2:36 Speaker 01 Hey, Mandy. Oh, Mandy.
2:38 Speaker 00 Oh, Mandy. And last but not least, Mary Ann Keyeswood Wells.
2:43 Speaker 01 Ah, the old Keyeswood.
2:46 Speaker 00 Then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Jilly Jacobs.
2:52 Speaker 01 Jilly, you remember Jilly, wasn't Jilly like a, uh, character on Saturday Night Live?
2:56 Speaker 00 You just said that last week about.
2:59 Speaker 01 Another character?
3:00 Speaker 00 Jilly, no, it was, I think it was, and that's where I was talking about Gilda Radner. I swear that was like last week or the week before.
3:07 Speaker 01 Maybe I was, but now it's Jilly.
3:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
3:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:11 Speaker 00 I think before it was Gillie.
3:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I was wrong, I think you said.
3:15 Speaker 00 I don't know if you are or not, but apparently you think everybody is a character on Saturday Night Live. And let's face it, for as long as it's been on, there probably is a character named Gillie, Jilly, and every other name you can think of.
3:28 Speaker 01 Maybe next week we'll have somebody named Billy.
3:31 Speaker 00 All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:35 Speaker 01 I'm ready.
3:36 Speaker 00 Nineteen year old Frank McAlister was reported missing on May 7th, 1993 by his fiance, who told police he left the house to meet friends. And then he never came back. Investigators suspected foul play. When they found blood in the vehicle Frank was driving, both Frank's family and authorities suspected he was killed by the three people who last saw him alive. But his case went cold for almost 25 years, until one of the suspects revealed everything in a shocking TV interview.
4:10 Speaker 01 That's exciting to me to hear. When someone spills the beans, or spills the tea, or whatever the saying is, the look on people's faces were probably like, they say what we thought they said?
4:24 Speaker 00 Well, I think it goes back to all the unsolved episodes we do. And how many times at the end do we talk about, you know, what's it going to take to solve this case? And one of those could be that someone finally decides to come forward and tell everything they know. It just doesn't happen all that often.
4:44 Speaker 01 Oh, you're right.
4:45 Speaker 00 Frank McAlister was born on September 20th, 1973 in Downey, California. His parents were Doug McAlister and Cindy Tomachoff. Frank's mother Cindy said in an interview with Cold Case Files, he was a good baby. He loved to joke. He loved to tease you and do whatever he could to get your attention. And you know, a lot of kids are like that, right? They just want attention.
5:13 Speaker 01 Sure they do.
5:13 Speaker 00 Sometimes it's good, sometimes not, but they crave attention.
5:18 Speaker 01 Some adults do that too.
5:20 Speaker 00 Oh, very much so. I think even more so today than maybe what we were used to 20, 30 years ago. Frank's parents separated when he was eight and Frank lived with his father in Redding, California. By the time Frank was 19, he was using drugs, including meth.
5:39 Speaker 01 You ever tried meth?
5:41 Speaker 00 No, I have not. Do you see the fact that I have all my teeth? Look, no.
5:48 Speaker 01 You ever notice when people do meth, like it must make their teeth itch or something? Cause they're always like playing inside the mouth.
5:54 Speaker 00 It's because they're about ready to fall out, I assume. I don't know. I've always heard that meth makes your teeth fall out. Maybe I'm totally wrong about that.
6:02 Speaker 01 Well, I think you're correct.
6:04 Speaker 00 It could be that people on meth just don't brush their teeth. I don't know. Since 1992, Frank had been dating Donnell Tadic, who tried to help him stop using drugs. And you know, that's a great thing to do. I imagine Gibbs, it's also a very tough thing to do.
6:22 Speaker 01 Sure. Yeah.
6:24 Speaker 00 You know, part of that comes down to number one, does the person even want to stop? Cause I think that's a huge factor in, you know, getting off of anything. But then the other thing is, Yeah, some of these things are just so addictive.
6:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:40 Speaker 00 That it's virtually impossible, or I shouldn't say impossible, but very tough.
6:45 Speaker 01 I'm sure it drains individuals that have somebody that have one of these type of addictions.
6:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure it's draining, but you know, good on her for trying to help him out. Frank and Danell broke up for a couple of months in early 1993. And she told the Record Searchlight newspaper, she feared he fell in with the wrong crap and got mixed up with drugs. By the spring of 1993, Frank was ready to start a new phase of life with Danell. They were engaged and talked about moving to Reno, Nevada. They wanted to elope in Reno on May 17th, 1993, exactly one year after they met. Frank had been working as a cook at a restaurant, but he wasn't making a lot of money.
7:34 Speaker 00 He was unemployed at the time of his disappearance. Frank was in a car accident in March, 1993. However, shortly before he went missing, he received a settlement check for $5,000. And you know, when you don't have a lot of money, $5,000 is a lot.
7:52 Speaker 01 You can stretch that out.
7:53 Speaker 00 Well, Danell said she and Frank planned to use the money to pay debts and get their own apartment since they had been living with friends. She told the Record Searchlight, I really thought I had found the love of my life. I had a lot of goals, a lot of dreams. We had a lot of things we were working together on. But Frank wanted to use some of his settlement money to buy meth and resell it for a profit.
8:21 Speaker 01 It's probably in his head, he's probably like, I can buy some meth, double my money. I think.
8:27 Speaker 00 As long as you don't use your own product, maybe that works.
8:32 Speaker 01 But I think.
8:33 Speaker 00 But might work. It's also still highly illegal.
8:35 Speaker 01 That's true too. Yes.
8:37 Speaker 00 But I think for somebody who, you know, was addicted, is addicted, right? Once addicted, you're always addicted is what they say. But even if you stop using, I mean, the temptation there gives that that's probably too much for anyone.
8:54 Speaker 01 Right.
8:54 Speaker 00 To have all of that supply around and not use any of it. Frank discussed this plan with Donnell as well as his friends Curtis and Shannon Culver, 21 and 17 year old siblings, respectively. Shannon's boyfriend, 19 year old Brian Hawkins, agreed to act as the middleman, who would take them to a dealer in nearby Shingle Town, California. On May 6th, 1993, Frank borrowed Donnell's car and drove to Shingle Town with Brian, Curtis and Shannon. To make the deal, he left home around 4:30 PM and told Donnell he was driving her car to a friend's house. Donnell became worried when Frank didn't come home.
9:40 Speaker 00 She called Frank's mom Cindy and told him that both Frank and her car were missing. Cindy was worried because it wasn't like Frank to just up and leave. Donnell spent the evening calling friends, hospitals, the police and the Shasta County jail. And we have to keep in mind, right? Gives us 1993.
10:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:01 Speaker 00 I don't think a lot of people had cell phones in 1993. They were around. I just don't think by and large, you know, most people had them. And, you know, if you're a couple who's living paycheck to paycheck, you probably didn't have one because they were kind of expensive back then.
10:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think you could afford the monthly bill.
10:23 Speaker 00 Donnell called the police again on May 7th and officially reported Frank missing.
10:29 Speaker 00 She was honest when she made the report and told police about the recent settlement and Frank's plan to buy meth. Okay, yeah, that's, that's pretty honest.
10:40 Speaker 01 It is honest.
10:41 Speaker 00 She later learned that Frank's friends claimed he dropped them off in the area of Waterworks Park on Lake Boulevard. According to them, Frank said he had somewhere important to go and would be right back. He wouldn't say where he was going and he never came back. Police found Donnell's car on May 7th in the Costco parking lot in Reading. There was blood on the driver's door, armrest, and the exterior of the vehicle. Investigators suspected something happened to Frank during a drug deal gone wrong. Because of the amount of blood, they treated the case as a homicide from the very beginning.
11:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, but that makes sense. You know, you got a large amount of cash, drug deal, and all this blood. How, what else could it possibly be? Well, I'm assuming he had his cash on him, right? Because he's buying these drugs.
11:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I think it's a pretty good assumption to make. And, you know, the human body only holds so much blood. So I think when investigators look at a very large amount of blood, it kind of, at the very least, has to point them in the direction of homicide. It didn't take long for investigators to figure out that Brian Hawkins and the Culver siblings were the last people to see Frank. And we said it, right? They admitted they were with him in the vehicle on the day he went missing, but they claimed he dropped them off near Waterworks Park
12:21 Speaker 00 because he was going to meet someone and they hadn't seen him since. In mid-May, investigators announced their suspicion that there was foul play in Frank's disappearance, but they didn't reveal any other details.
12:35 Speaker 00 Frank's father Doug McAlister was active in the search efforts. He told the record search light on May 20th. I'm going to make up a bunch of flyers and post them all over the place. This is just driving me nuts.
12:49 Speaker 01 I think would drive anybody nuts.
12:51 Speaker 00 Well, and we talked about this in our Patreon episode, right? That just dropped on Saturday. This is pre-Facebook.
13:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:02 Speaker 00 In that case, the family was able to get on Facebook very quickly, right? And get the word out about their missing loved one. But you know, in the seventies, eighties, early nineties, that's what you could do is post flyers, call people, you know, things like that.
13:22 Speaker 01 I guess maybe in the nineties, I can't even remember when MySpace came out. I know you probably had one because I could see you having a MySpace account.
13:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I, I don't even remember when I had the internet. I want to say it was maybe 93, 94 ish, but there was no Facebook.
13:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:43 Speaker 00 There, there was, there was no MySpace, I don't think at that time. I think that came out, you know, years later, but there definitely wasn't a way to just quickly get something out to a large group of people.
13:56 Speaker 01 Flyers was the answer.
13:58 Speaker 00 Unless you could get on TV.
13:59 Speaker 01 Well, that's true, right?
14:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, which, you know, a lot of people couldn't do. Lieutenant Steve Davidson said at the time, we have a lot of witnesses who know him, who we have talked to, who have given their opinion on what happened, but we have no suspects we're about to arrest. Davidson also said that Frank had cash on him when he disappeared, but any other motive would just be sheer speculation. So that goes back to what you said, right? He planned on using this $5,000 to buy meth and make money doing it. It's hard not to imagine that he had either all of it or a large chunk of it with him
14:41 Speaker 00 that night, if the plan was to go buy this meth that he was then later going to turn around and sell.
14:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:50 Speaker 00 Frank's stepmother, Kim noted that Frank was the kind of person who would have shown his money off to acquaintances. She told the record searchlight, "We tried to tell him to open a bank account right away." And let's face it, some people are like that. If they come into some money, you know, they want to tell people about it, or maybe they want to buy something that they can show off. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. Now, if you tell the wrong person, you could potentially set yourself up to become a target. And then there's people who they don't want anyone to know that they have any money at any point.
15:31 Speaker 01 Oh, of course. Yeah.
15:33 Speaker 00 I'm looking at one right across from me.
15:37 Speaker 01 Hey, if you would have gave me advance notice, I would have brought money for dinner. I would have, you know?
15:42 Speaker 00 We talked about that dinner. So we've been doing this podcast for 10 years, and I've been feeding you every week for 10 years.
15:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:50 Speaker 00 You have brought dinner or bought dinner once in 10 years, and then two other times you brought some desserts. Three times.
16:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:01 Speaker 00 You have actually opened up your wallet in 10 years.
16:05 Speaker 01 I think you're missing one or two dates in.
16:07 Speaker 00 I don't know if I am. If so, it's no more than five. Let's just throw that out there.
16:14 Speaker 01 I think I said, "Hey, I'll get dinner next time." And you're like, "No, don't worry about it."
16:19 Speaker 00 I definitely would not say that.
16:24 Speaker 01 Well, you know, I appreciate it.
16:27 Speaker 00 Doug and Kim talked to Frank a few days before he went missing, and they tried to convince him to move to Sacramento where they lived. They explained for the past year, Frank had been working at two restaurants in Redding and a warehouse in Los Angeles, but he was unemployed at the time of his disappearance. Kim said they wanted Frank to stay with them until he got back on his feet, and even told him his girlfriend could come with him. But Frank didn't want to leave Redding. And I get that. You know, it's, it's tough to leave the place that. Where you live, right? It's your home, but it really sounds like they were, you know,
17:08 Speaker 00 trying to make it easier for him, you know, to allow him to kind of get back up on his feet because he's working all these jobs and he, he just can't stay afloat is what it sounded like.
17:23 Speaker 01 It was a tough go at it.
17:24 Speaker 00 Well, and, and maybe he thought coming into the 5,000 meant that he'd be okay. Months passed with no new leads in the case. On April 13th, 1994, mushroom foragers in the woods near Grayson Nora Lakes in Shingle Town found skeletal human remains. The lower part of the body had been scavenged by animals, resulting in bones being scattered throughout the woods. Scattered near the bones was clothing, a California driver's license with Frank's name on it and papers. The clothing was consistent with what Frank was wearing when he went missing.
18:05 Speaker 01 So it's an eerie find.
18:06 Speaker 00 It is. It always is, right? But you think about, you know, why aren't more bodies that are just left out in the woods found? And I think oftentimes if there's no clothes or there's no other identifiers, I think these bones get scattered.
18:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:27 Speaker 00 By, you know, scavengers and, you know, obviously if you walk in the woods and you see a full skeleton, that's going to be very easy to recognize.
18:36 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
18:37 Speaker 00 But if there's just small bone fragments or things like that, you might not pick up on them if they're scattered all over the place. But my other thought is probably little doubt, right? You have his driver's license, you've got some papers and you have the clothing that he was said to have been wearing when he went missing.
18:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, thank you. I found your missing person.
18:59 Speaker 00 Reading Police Sergeant Chuck Lieback said at the time, "We feel strongly it is Frank McAlister. However, a positive identification has not been made. Dental records later confirmed the remains were Frank McAlister. His cause of death was having his throat cut. And, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, finding just skeletal remains and, and not always being able to determine cause of death. Now, if you've got a gunshot wound to the head, that's very easy to see if the skull's there.
19:38 Speaker 00 I would think having your throat cut, there would be some marks left behind by the knife if that part of the body is found. The police received tips and suspected the Culver siblings and Brian Hawkins early on, but they didn't publicly announce the suspects. According to A and E, authorities had limited success talking to Shanna Culver because she was only 16 at the time of the murder.
20:07 Speaker 01 Well, but like we said earlier, those were the individuals last seen with Frank. So they seem like the most likely suspects.
20:17 Speaker 00 Or at the very least, they, they're going to be on the radar until they're ruled out.
20:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:23 Speaker 00 And all three had racked up criminal records over the years. According to the record search light, Brian has a criminal history dating back to 1991, including arrests for drunk driving, hit and run, burglary, receiving stolen property, and corporal injury to a spouse. Curtis Culver has a record for possession of a controlled substance, obstruction, and the manufacture of weapons. Shanna has a record for possession of a controlled substance and paraphernalia, petty theft, and child abuse.
21:01 Speaker 01 So all three not really good people.
21:06 Speaker 00 Well, at the very least, you'd have to say they weren't doing the right things and they were caught a number of times by police. Shannon was also involved in a 2002 traffic collision that killed 35 year old Philip Lamont Jackson. Shannon told police he was standing in the road. Police said Shannon had not been drinking and no citations were issued. So, I mean, that could have just been an accident.
21:32 Speaker 01 Sure, it could have been, yeah.
21:33 Speaker 00 The three were interviewed several times during the course of the investigation, but they continued to deny any involvement in Frank's death. That was until January 9th, 2018, when Brian Hawkins met a reporter at KRCR's newsroom and confessed his involvement on camera. Brian just said he couldn't live with the guilt anymore and decided to turn himself in. He asked to smoke and have a soda before appearing on camera. He announced to the news crew, I'm going to turn myself in next door at the sheriff's department for a crime I was involved in years ago. And somebody lost their life.
22:18 Speaker 00 It was murder.
22:19 Speaker 01 I'm thinking the news anchor, the news crew are probably all, what is happening here?
22:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure dumbfounded to a degree, but also maybe, I don't know if giddy is the right word, but you have, you got a scoop.
22:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm sure there's some excitement that comes along with that as well.
22:41 Speaker 00 You got somebody who is going to go on camera and you're going to be the only one who has this breaking story. I mean, reporters and journalists, they kind of live for stuff like that.
22:54 Speaker 01 And it's gonna help your ratings.
22:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's gonna be a bombshell. No doubt about it. Brian explained that he was motivated to come forward because of his faith, saying, God, Christ, these things that have happened throughout my whole life since then, for over 25 years, have pushed me and pushed me to do the right thing. I know the wrong can't be changed, but this is as close as I can come to doing the right thing. Living with the guilt for so long had been horrible, horrible, absolutely horrible every day. Almost every minute of every day has been a nightmare. And this is something you and I talk about on Unsolved all the time. You know, what's it gonna take?
23:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:41 Speaker 00 To solve some of these crimes that kind of go on for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Now, there's always the DNA route, right? We always talk about that. But then you also have, could somebody potentially have a change in their way of thinking and decide to come forward? It doesn't happen all that often, but here's a prime example of when it does.
24:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, the guilt has just eaten him up on the inside.
24:11 Speaker 00 And I always wonder about that. I mean, obviously you have stone cold killers who probably have no guilt whatsoever because they have no empathy.
24:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:20 Speaker 00 But not everybody is, is like that. They're involved in, in something that they shouldn't have been, but they have empathy for other people. They feel guilt. And so I think he's kind of really painting that picture of how heavy it was weighing on his shoulders for all those years.
24:42 Speaker 01 I can get it, you know, not on that level, but I know how that guilt can eat at you. I remember that time in the office, you had that other cupcake on your desk. You went to that meeting. I went to your office. I ate that cupcake. You said, who ate my cupcake? We all like, not us, not us, you know?
25:00 Speaker 00 So you know, you're now telling me this 10 years later or something, and I knew you ate that.
25:06 Speaker 01 I did. I'm sorry. It was. Really good, you know, um, I don't know what else I can say, but
25:12 Speaker 00 Sociopath.
25:13 Speaker 01 I, I feel a whole lot better now.
25:14 Speaker 00 I'm glad you unburdened yourself. Brian continued by saying, I said, it's kind of weird that Frank never even got to have a life. And neither did I. We were teenagers and now I'm 44 and still haven't even had a life. And now probably most likely won't anyways. He refused to give details about what exactly happened. He said, he didn't know Frank, but the Culvers did. Somebody came up with an idea or whatever you want to call it. They knew him. He said, it wasn't my idea. A reporter asked him, why now? Brian replied by saying, I've been through hell my whole life because of this.
25:58 Speaker 00 There was not a moment. He wasn't remorseful. He reached out to Frank's family several times and wanted to ask for forgiveness. But by the time he got there, he learned Frank's father had passed away. After the interview, Brian went to the Redding Police Department and turned himself in. He told the police he could no longer live with the guilt and wanted to clear his conscience. And you know, to me, this is just amazing because I do think it's an outlier. It's not the norm.
26:30 Speaker 01 It's not at all.
26:32 Speaker 00 Where people come back 30, 40 years later and say, you know, I've lived with this for so long and I just can't do it anymore.
26:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:40 Speaker 00 And Brian gave a detailed statement about exactly what happened on May 6th, 1993. He claimed it was all Shannon's idea.
26:50 Speaker 01 The 16 year old.
26:51 Speaker 00 The 16 year old. He said he was with Shannon Curtis at their apartment. With the plan of meeting up with Frank McAlister. They learned Frank was looking to purchase a large amount of meth. And with some of his insurance settlement money, he wanted to resell it for profit. Brian suggested going to Shingle Town because he knew people in the area who Frank might be able to buy meth from. Once the decision was made to go to Shingle Town, Shanna told Brian she had come up with a plan to kill Frank because he had money. Brian said he blew Shannon off because he thought she wasn't being serious, but Shannon took out a folding pocket knife from her closet and showed it to him.
27:37 Speaker 00 Brian thought she was showing him the knife because she possibly wanted to use it to stab Frank when they robbed him. And you just said it, right? The 16 year old. We know it happens, but it is hard to believe. I think a lot of times that, you know, a person that young could be so cold blooded.
27:58 Speaker 01 Yeah. Conceive that plan.
28:01 Speaker 00 Help carry it out, even have the thought enter their mind.
28:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:06 Speaker 00 A while later, after Frank had joined them, the four of them left the apartment in Frank's vehicle to head to Shingle Town. Brian was sitting in the backseat behind Frank, who was driving. Curtis was in the front passenger seat. Shanna was behind Curtis in the backseat. Brian told Frank where to go. Once they arrived in Shingle Town, he directed him to pull onto a dirt turnout off the road and park. They sat in the car for a couple of hours just talking. And it was during this time they were in the car that Shanna removed the knife from her purse and showed it to Brian, telling him to take it and stab Frank in the neck with it.
28:49 Speaker 00 Brian took the knife, but Curtis was the one who ended up stabbing Frank in the neck with a different knife while they were all still in the car.
28:59 Speaker 01 Sure Frank never saw it coming.
29:01 Speaker 00 No, and you're right about that. I would assume if he had any inkling that these people wanted to do him harm, he wouldn't have gone. But I also have the thought, Gibbs, and I have it quite a bit in these types of cases where you have someone who has an idea that is not only criminal, but it involves taking someone's life. And two other people hear the idea and they're kind of all in.
29:31 Speaker 01 Like too easily all in.
29:33 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, I think as you often say, you know, where's the voice of reason? Where's the person who stands up and says, what are you talking about? I don't want to be involved in this. This is wrong. We shouldn't do this. Now, I don't know if it's group think. I don't know if drugs, you know, played a factor in this and the thinking process. Or if these were just people based on their records then and even more so later, who had kind of a criminal mind.
30:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:08 Speaker 00 And would do whatever they had to do to get some quick, easy money.
30:12 Speaker 01 And that's exactly what it was, right? Quick, easy money, wasn't big amount. I mean, when you take the five grand, if it was five grand that he brought with him.
30:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, if he brought the whole thing.
30:22 Speaker 01 What is that? You know, less than a couple thousand bucks each? Is that really worth murder? That's, that's what blows my mind. Like people will ruin their life over less than a couple grand.
30:35 Speaker 00 But why is that? Why are they willing to take the risk? Is it because they just believe they're so smart, they're never going to get caught? And let's face it, would they have gotten caught if Brian never comes forward?
30:52 Speaker 01 Probably not.
30:53 Speaker 00 They got away with it for, you know, however many years.
30:57 Speaker 01 Probably not.
30:58 Speaker 00 But, but you're right. When you think about a grand, $1,500. Now,
31:05 Speaker 00 There's no way to put any price on a life, but those types of amounts, they're just inconceivable.
31:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:12 Speaker 00 How could you even take a chance for that little amount of money? Now, again, if, if drugs or the thought of getting drugs, needing the money to buy drugs is a factor. Okay, that I can understand a little bit more. Doesn't make it better.
31:30 Speaker 01 No, it doesn't.
31:32 Speaker 00 But it makes it easier to understand, maybe, how the group think kind of kicks in. If they were all doing the drugs and, and they needed them. After being stabbed, Frank opened his door and got out. The three got out and walked to him. Frank laid down on the ground and Brian straddled him and began stabbing him in the throat with the knife Shannon gave him. He admitted he stabbed Frank a lot of times. Curtis dragged Frank's body towards the front of the vehicle and grabbed a large rock and dropped it on his head. After that, the three got back into the car and drove back to Redding.
32:15 Speaker 00 Brian abandoned the car in the Costco parking lot. Then they took a taxi back to the Culvers apartment. After getting back, Brian noticed Curtis and Shannon had a lot of cash. They gave him several hundred dollars and he knew the money was Franks because it had blood on it.
32:34 Speaker 01 Only several hundred dollars.
32:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, out of this large amount of cash.
32:40 Speaker 01 I'm sure he did know it was Franks. Who else had that type of cash on them that day?
32:45 Speaker 00 Also, who else just got stabbed and had a rock dropped on their head? Can you imagine picking up a, a big rock and dropping it on somebody's head?
32:55 Speaker 01 I mean, at that point, wasn't he already dead anyway?
33:00 Speaker 00 If, if he wasn't, he was going to be.
33:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:03 Speaker 00 Most likely, right? From the amount of stab wounds. Officers asked the news station to wait to air the interview segment until they found the accomplices. KRCR agreed to wait 24 hours. And it's a big ask, right? You've got this bombshell breaking story. But what happens if they air it and Curtis and Shanna see it?
33:32 Speaker 01 It's a tip off.
33:33 Speaker 00 Then they're gone, right? They're in the wind. It doesn't mean they won't be caught, but they're going to try their darndest to, you know, maybe get to another country or at the very least get somewhere where it'd be harder to find them.
33:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're going to hide.
33:49 Speaker 00 On January 10th, 2018, police located Curtis Culver in Red Bluff. He agreed to go to the Redding Police Department. Once he was in the interview room, he admitted his involvement. And I just wonder, you know, had it been weighing on him as well? Or was it because investigators hit him with the fact that Brian had already confessed?
34:16 Speaker 01 I hope when he walked in there, the reason that he confessed so quickly was because the guilt was eating him up as well.
34:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, it would be great if that's the way it went down. But I think people would argue, okay, if it was eating you up so badly, why had you not come forward before then?
34:34 Speaker 01 That's true.
34:35 Speaker 00 So more than likely, at least from my way of thinking, he was hit with this kind of, you're not getting out of this, so you better admit it and craft a better story than Brian.
34:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:50 Speaker 00 Because his story did match Brian's up to the point where Frank was stabbed. But that was where key differences emerged. Curtis recalled pulling out a knife he had in the car and pointing it in Frank's direction because at least according to him, he was afraid. Around that time, Brian reached around the front of Frank's neck and slit his throat with a knife he was holding. Frank got out of the car and fell to the ground. Brian sat on him and began stabbing him in the throat and upper chest numerous times. When Brian got off him, Frank appeared to be alive, but barely.
35:32 Speaker 00 Curtis dropped the large rock on his head out of mercy. And then Frank appeared to be dead at that point.
35:40 Speaker 01 When you hear it that way, it kind of makes sense about why he dropped the rock on the head. He's saying, oh, Frank was suffering. I couldn't watch it. I needed to put him out of his misery. So I picked up the rock and did it.
35:54 Speaker 00 As opposed to him, you know, being a terrible guy and, and just throwing this rock down on Frank's head is, is kind of a additional act of violence. Right? His version paints him as, as more of the compassionate one, right? He's trying to paint himself as being compassionate.
36:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:15 Speaker 00 Wait, I didn't stab him. I didn't cut his throat. You know, Brian did all of that and I did drop the rock, but it was just because I wanted him not to suffer. And that's kind of what I meant when I said, well, he has to craft a better story than Brian.
36:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:36 Speaker 00 At this point, right? Everybody's fighting for their lives to craft their own narrative. And more often than not, each person's narrative makes them look better than the other people involved.
36:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:51 Speaker 00 That's just how it works. Curtis also claimed that Brian was the one who took the cash and some meth from Frank's pockets. But I want to go back to him saying, yeah, I did pull out a knife. I pointed it in Frank's direction, but it was only because I was afraid. Dude, you're the one holding a, a big ass knife.
37:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:13 Speaker 00 What, what are you afraid of?
37:15 Speaker 01 You're in the, uh, strength position.
37:19 Speaker 00 Curtis was arrested at the end of his interview. Shanna Culver was also found in the Red Bluff area, but refused to go to the police station willingly. She was arrested and brought back to Redding. And I don't know if they had body cams in 2018. I don't think they had them the way they do today. But I keep talking about these body cam videos. I just can't stop watching them on YouTube.
37:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:46 Speaker 00 And, and this is the type of one that they would show. Right. She's, they're looking for her. They find her, but she's not going to go willingly. She's going to put up a fight.
37:56 Speaker 01 Yes, she is.
37:56 Speaker 00 And it's going to be caught on body cam. I don't know if this one was 25 years later. Shanna stuck to her original story. She admitted she was with her brother, Brian and Frank, on the day he was last seen alive. They drove around together and Frank dropped them off when he got a call on his pager. She presumed he was going to buy that. So it's interesting, right? To see each person's thought process.
38:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:26 Speaker 00 And what course of action they're going to take. The other two guys tell differing versions of events, but they both implicate themselves.
38:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:38 Speaker 00 Shanna doesn't. She said the exact same thing she said 25 years earlier.
38:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, I already told you this story. Like, I'll tell you again, but nothing's changed.
38:48 Speaker 00 But when a detective played a recording of Brian's confession, she then refused to talk, saying, "That's all I'm going to say anymore. I want a lawyer."
38:59 Speaker 01 Well, it's a smart thing to say.
39:00 Speaker 00 It's probably not a bad thing to say at all. Shanna became emotional and was crying and yelling during her interview before she invoked her right to an attorney. After the news came out, Frank's 81-year-old grandmother, Avis Rice, said the family was shocked by the arrests after so many years, but they were relieved that the case might finally be solved. They had long suspected that Brian Hawkins and the Culver siblings were responsible for Frank's death. And I could see that, right? Kind of clinging to that notion over so many years.
39:40 Speaker 00 These are the last people to have been seen with him or known to have been with him. They must have done something to him because nothing else Gibbs has come out to really point in another direction.
39:56 Speaker 01 And that just fits the possibility. It's like one of the stronger possibilities.
40:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I think a lot of people would argue probably the strongest. Sadly, Frank's father Doug McAlister died in October 2017. Frank's uncle John McAlister wrote about the arrests on Facebook and noted that Doug was certain about those responsible for Frank's death, but he died before the arrests were made. And sadly, that happens a lot in cases that take, you know, decades and decades to solve.
40:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:35 Speaker 00 You know, loved ones of the victim, mothers, fathers, grandmothers, grandfathers, they die before finally the truth comes out. And so they never really get to know.
40:49 Speaker 01 Which is sad.
40:50 Speaker 00 It is very sad. Although she was 41 years old when she was arrested. Shanna first appeared in juvenile court because she was a minor when the crime was committed.
41:02 Speaker 01 You always wonder how they're going to handle that.
41:05 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I don't know if it varies state by state. I'm sure it does. Most things do, but I think by and large, a lot of the sentencing and everything like that does kind of revert to back when the crime occurred. Now, it's strange as a 41 year old woman to be going into juvenile court, but. She technically was only 16 at the time.
41:31 Speaker 01 That's true.
41:32 Speaker 00 But I'll tell you what, for me, if I'm the family, I'm not happy about that.
41:37 Speaker 01 No, because she was also the mastermind.
41:41 Speaker 00 Allegedly.
41:42 Speaker 01 Allegedly, yeah.
41:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, said to have been the mastermind, but here's the thing, right? She was 16, that means she lived the last 25 years, right? Free, where Frank didn't get to live at all.
41:58 Speaker 01 No, she chose not to turn herself in.
42:01 Speaker 00 On January 17th, 2018, Brian Hawkins attempted to plead guilty in court, but was told he would have to wait until he spoke with his defense attorney to make sure he was fully aware of his rights and the consequences. Man, he was really ready to plead guilty.
42:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I understand why the courts would want that. It's gonna somewhat limit future appeals and things like that, right? He didn't have the right mind, he didn't know.
42:31 Speaker 00 He hadn't even talked to his attorney. Yeah, I mean, the court is always trying to make sure that everything is handled correctly so that it does limit what can come back on appeal. On October 25th, 2018, the three defendants were ordered to stand trial for murder. In her closing arguments at the preliminary hearing, Deputy DA Kelly Caffel said all three co-defendants were active participants in the murder and the motive was money. Shannon's defense attorney scoffed at Brian's assertion that she was the mastermind of the murder and placed all the blame on Brian.
43:15 Speaker 00 Shocking that defense attorneys would try to place the blame on every defendant but their own.
43:24 Speaker 01 I mean, that's like defense 101, right?
43:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely.
43:27 Speaker 01 Deflect, deflect, deflect.
43:28 Speaker 00 You can just imagine what this guy was saying. This was a 16-year-old girl. Are you going to believe that she was the mastermind of this entire thing? That she was able to? Boss around these older guys and get them to do what she wanted.
43:47 Speaker 01 Problem is between Brian and Shanna is that Brian actually came in and made a confession. So that kind of puts him up a notch on her because if he didn't do that, I don't think she would have ever turned herself in.
44:01 Speaker 00 No, I don't think so either. And I also feel the same way about Curtis, right? Brian comes in, tells his story. Curtis comes in and tells a different story that really puts most of the blame on Brian.
44:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:18 Speaker 00 But who came in willingly? And how much stock do you put in that?
44:23 Speaker 01 Well, I think you have to put some stock into it.
44:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, I do as well. The attorney also noted that Brian made wild accusations against Shanna and her brother about being devil worshippers during his interviews. She called Brian paranoid and his statements self-serving. Well, what defendant's statements are not self-serving? I mean, that's basically all they try to do.
44:49 Speaker 01 Well, you ain't lying.
44:51 Speaker 00 Brian's attorney argued that he had been truthful and taken responsibility for his actions. Brian had no idea Frank was going to be robbed and killed and took no violent action against Frank until after Curtis allegedly stabbed him. Curtis's defense strongly disagreed with this story, saying it was Brian who killed Frank. There was no evidence that Curtis ever spoke to Shanna or Brian about robbing and killing Frank.
45:22 Speaker 01 Well, there isn't, right? I mean, it's his word against his and her word versus her word against their word versus, you know, it's just a triangle.
45:32 Speaker 00 Lot of people's words against other people's words. Yeah, I get what you're saying. And it's, I think these are tough for juries or the judge, right? Whoever is listening to the case. Because you don't have really that kind of rock solid, concrete evidence. Everything's kind of circumstantial. This person said that, but somebody else is saying something completely different. Shanna's saying they weren't even together.
46:06 Speaker 01 Right.
46:07 Speaker 00 No murder even occurred.
46:09 Speaker 01 I think for her, she looks the worst because you have two individuals putting her at the crime scene.
46:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, I thought that too. Right now, they, they might be telling different versions of the story, but both of their stories involve the murder of Frank.
46:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:28 Speaker 00 So it makes her story of them not even being together seem like she's just completely lying.
46:35 Speaker 01 I mean, in both of their stories, they don't say she stabbed him, but she's still there, provided the knife to one of them.
46:44 Speaker 00 On November 26, 2019, Brian Hawkins pleaded guilty to murder, robbery, and special allegations. On January 14th, 2022, Curtis and Shanna Culver pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter, robbery and concert, and multiple assault charges. And I thought it was interesting that their trial was more than two years after Brian's. I mean, all three pled guilty. You just wonder what happened. And I didn't read it anywhere, but what happened that caused theirs to be delayed by so many years?
47:21 Speaker 01 Maybe COVID.
47:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're right. It could be because COVID was, you know, smack dab in the middle of the two. Frank's family issued a statement after the hearing as reported by KRCR. Murdered at 19 years old, the criminals involved robbed Frank of a life. The opportunity to create a positive legacy. Frank was denied his whole life, filled with opportunity, the creation of a family, a chance to love and be loved. To this day, our family imagines what life would have been like for all of us had Frank lived to be a part of all of us. Now, I think sometimes this has to be tough for the family.
48:05 Speaker 00 It does seem as though, you know, maybe Frank was doing something he shouldn't have been doing.
48:11 Speaker 01 Right.
48:12 Speaker 00 Right? If he really was going to buy meth and he was going to resell it. Well, obviously that's a crime. It's something he shouldn't have been doing. But does that mean he deserved to have his life taken away from him? No, absolutely not.
48:31 Speaker 01 I just don't think it's ever good to broadcast that you have a source of funds coming in.
48:37 Speaker 00 Or that it's coming.
48:38 Speaker 01 Right.
48:39 Speaker 00 And you're showing it off and you're talking about your plans for it and this and that. Yeah.
48:47 Speaker 00 Because you don't know who's going to be that one person who you show it to, who's going to do basically anything to get their hands on.
48:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:00 Speaker 00 Now, a lot of times you roll into the studio with a, you know, a big fat roll.
49:06 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
49:07 Speaker 00 Rubber banded. Now, it's all ones from whatever show at the senior center you did last night or the night before, whenever it was. So I know it's, it's really not a lot of money, but even if it was all twenties, I'm still not going to harm you and take your money.
49:27 Speaker 01 Just looks impressive when it's in my jeans.
49:30 Speaker 00 It does. But you didn't hear that from me. No, what it looks like is you have elephantitis of the testicles. That's what it looks like. On March 28th, 2022, Brian Hawkins was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. On May 26th of that year, Curtis and Shanna Culver were sentenced to 35 and 20 years respectively. They must serve 80% of their time before they're eligible for parole. So their trials were over two years apart, but Curtis and Shanna actually got sentenced two days before Brian did.
50:12 Speaker 01 Now, is it interesting that Curtis got 10 more years than Brian? Is that because Brian came forward, you think?
50:22 Speaker 00 I think that had something to do with it. You know, he was the first one to, to tell the story. He implicated himself. Curtis then came along and told a different story. I'm sure they believed Brian. It also could be that they had Brian's cooperation. That, that wasn't really clear in the reporting. But it also doesn't surprise me that, that Shanna only got 20 years. Number one, she was only 16 years old.
50:52 Speaker 01 Right.
50:53 Speaker 00 At the time. Now, could she have been tried as an adult? Yeah, probably. But proving that she was the mastermind, I think that's pretty tough.
51:04 Speaker 01 I think so too.
51:05 Speaker 00 I mean, both of the guys admitted that she didn't stab anybody. They did the stabbing. Well, if you believe Curtis, he only did the, the head smashing with a rock only, as in his words, but.
51:21 Speaker 01 But I mean, so Shanna's got to spend at least, what, 16 years before she can be considered? That's a good chunk of time.
51:30 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, all three of them are going to spend many years in prison. Now, I'm sure if you're the family, you're saying, well, it's not near enough. Of course. The family is, is most always going to think that maybe if you're the family of these three individuals, you think it was too much. I, I don't know. A lot of the time, you know, you and I can get upset about sentences, thinking that they're not just, they're not fair. I don't really have a big issue with these sentences. Now, what I do have the issue with is that they got to spend a very large chunk of their life free.
52:11 Speaker 00 If you think about it, they would probably be out now had they been sentenced like this back then.
52:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I wonder if they think about, man, why didn't we just come forward?
52:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, but then, you know, they lived a life without these convictions. Now, it doesn't sound like they did great things with their life. We went through their criminal histories. But when they get out, they're going to be convicted felons. And for many people, that's a, that's a tough road.
52:42 Speaker 01 Sure it is.
52:43 Speaker 00 To get a job and get housing and, and all of that. As we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, the murder of Frank McAlister was a case where investigators and the victim's family had very strong suspicions about who was involved. There just wasn't enough proof to press charges or bring about an indictment. It took almost 25 years, but it was Brian Hawkins' conscience that finally got to him and drove him to tell the truth about what happened, ensuring that the case could be resolved. Because I think you can make a very good argument.
53:25 Speaker 00 If Brian doesn't come forward, this case could still be unsolved today.
53:31 Speaker 01 I absolutely believe that.
53:33 Speaker 00 Because I think there's very little doubt that either one of the Culvers were coming forward. So you do have to give Brian credit for at least that.
53:43 Speaker 01 Sure.
53:43 Speaker 00 Yeah. It doesn't excuse what he did.
53:46 Speaker 01 No.
53:47 Speaker 00 But obviously, his life, I think, had changed. At some point, I don't know what point, he talked about his faith, he talked about different things, whatever it was, it no longer allowed him to live with this guilt. And he felt that he had to come forward. And I'm with you. I think that is part of the reason why he got 10 years less than Curtis, is because he came forward, he told his story. Curtis only came forward because he was implicated.
54:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, he had no choice.
54:21 Speaker 00 And he had to, you know, come talk to the police. And they probably thought he lied when he told his story anyway. But that's it for our episode on Frank McAlister. We got a couple of voicemails. You want to check those out?
54:34 Speaker 01 Let's hear them.
54:36 Speaker 02 Hi, guys. This is Hannah from Oregon. I just wanted to call in and tell you that I love both shows, but mostly I wanted to share a fun little tidbit. I have a local TCAT. It is the tri-county anti-trafficking task force, and we help combat human trafficking all over Idaho and Oregon. So I just wanted to let you know that there are other great folks out there, just like you, doing the great work under the TCAT name. Anyway, safe to say I am team TCAT. I love both of you and how your humors play so well into each other. With that, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
55:09 Speaker 00 All right. Thank you so much for the voicemail. And that does sound like great work.
55:13 Speaker 01 It does.
55:14 Speaker 00 We talk about human trafficking quite a bit. You know, it's something that really scares me. The thought that someone can be snatched up off the street and end up either in a different part of the country and a different country altogether, being forced to do something that they shouldn't have to do and being separated from their family.
55:39 Speaker 01 I've seen when they raided, you know, docks and they open up the storage.
55:45 Speaker 00 Like the shipping containers. Yeah. And there's just a bunch of women in there.
55:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
55:49 Speaker 00 It's horrible.
55:50 Speaker 01 It really is.
55:51 Speaker 00 Absolutely horrible.
55:53 Speaker 03 Hey, Mike. Hey, Gibby. It's Stephen. Again, I called years ago, but I still want to let you guys know I'm still an avid listener and I just listened to the podcast, the newest one from 2026 and want to let you guys know you should have a good year. I found a promising career and I'm going to move up in life with my family and thank you for making my nights so much easier because now I work graveyard in a hospital. So I appreciate it and keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking, guys. And I hope the best for all you guys and a great new year. Bye.
56:25 Speaker 01 That's awesome. That's awesome, Stephen.
56:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it is. Congratulations to you. So glad things are going well in your world. All right, buddy. That is it.
56:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:36 Speaker 00 For another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
56:40 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
56:40 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
Previous Joe Gliniewicz Next Louisa Dunne Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated