Cindy Wanner

In November 1991, 35-year-old mother of two Cindy Wanner disappeared while cleaning her sister’s home in Granite Bay, California, leaving behind her infant daughter, shoes, and coat. Weeks later, Cindy’s body was discovered in a remote mountainous area, and investigators determined she had been strangled. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Cindy Wanner. Despite extensive searches and the mysterious use of Cindy’s bank card shortly after her disappearance, the case went cold for decades. Nearly 35 years later, advances in DNA testing and facial recognition technology finally gave investigators the breakthrough they had been waiting for, bringing answers in a case that had haunted Cindy’s family and law enforcement for generations. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  Please play responsibly. 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spin values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 PM Eastern Time. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 535 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:25Speaker 01

  I'm good, man. And yourself?

• 1:27Speaker 00

  Doing great.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28Speaker 00

  We just talked on Patreon about all the good television shows we're watching.

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  I know.

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  There's so many out there. It's kind of hard to get them all in.

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  There's the name. The Gangbusters.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  I'm ready.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  We're talking about Cindy Wanner. In November, 1991, Cindy Wanner was abducted from a suburban home outside Sacramento and strangled to death. Decades later, facial recognition technology helped solve the murder. 35-year-old Cindy was a devoted mother of two. She was married to Bob Wanner, and they had two children who were four and 11 months old at the time of Cindy's death.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Little ones.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's heartbreaking, right? Anytime someone is killed. But then you look at the scenario, right? She's got a four-year-old. She's got an 11-month-old. They're not going to, you know, get that time with her.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  Growing up.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  And, you know, kids need that. They need their mom.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  They do. And then you start to think about, okay, all the milestones. So every birthday, every Christmas, graduation, getting married, and it just makes it even that much more heartbreaking.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  I mean, for the 11-year-old, I mean.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  11-month-old.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  I mean, 11-month-old. I don't remember when kids start walking and talking and.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Some about, I think my oldest started about 11 months.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Walking.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Missing all that, you know, missing the, you know, time that you don't have to change diapers anymore.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  I don't miss those days, but Cindy and Bob moved to Rancho Cordova, California from Denver in 1990 after they both lost their jobs. Bob was working as a truck driver at the time of his wife's death. You know, you and I have talked a lot about Denver. We spent a lot of time in Denver. We had a company that we worked with out in Denver. So we had to go out there, both of us did.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  And it's a great state, man. It's beautiful.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  And I love the city of Denver. Colorado is great in general.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Yeah.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  It really is. Cindy's oldest sister Elaine described her as a very religious woman and a devoted mother with no enemies. Okay, well, we already know that she's going to be found strangled to death. So for investigators, you're starting out with a woman who allegedly has no known enemies. Where do you go?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, she had to make somebody upset.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, to want to kill her. Unless this was just an opportunistic type of stranger murder. About six weeks before Cindy went missing, her sister Susan and her husband Phil moved into a new home in Granite Bay, a suburb of Sacramento. Cindy was paid to clean her sister's house on Mondays. Cindy had recently spoken to officials at her church about getting help finding a job. Several weekends before her death, Cindy collected a box of clothes from the church to put on a garage sale to help pay for an ear operation their youngest daughter needed.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Okay, so I mean, she sounds like she's doing what she can to help out, right?

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it also sounds like, you know, they couldn't have been, you know, in the best place financially. They both lost their jobs. That's why they had to move to California. I mean, Bob's working. She's still looking for a job. She's cleaning her sister's house. But the other thing is, you can see, and this happens a lot with the church, right? People will oftentimes really come together and help out, you know, a member of the congregation who's in need. And it sounds like they were, you know, an ear operation for their youngest daughter. That's not elective. That's not, you know, something that, you know,

• 5:51Speaker 00

  you're not straightening teeth. This is something that really needs to be done.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Needs to happen.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  It needs to happen, and I'm sure it's not cheap. On November 25, 1991, Cindy went to her sister's home in Granite Bay to clean. She brought her 11-month-old baby with her. Authorities believe Cindy was abducted between 12:30 and 1:15 PM. This was between the time her sister and brother-in-law left the house and Cindy's husband Bob arrived to pick her up.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  It was just fairly small window.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  That's what I was thinking. I just talked about, you know, here's a woman who people said, you know, have no known enemies, but they do have what appears to be a pretty small window of time.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  When they believe that this abduction took place. Bob told police that he was bringing over a load of wood from Susan and Phil's old house and had just picked up their daughter from daycare when he arrived at the house to get Cindy. Bob rang the doorbell, but there was no answer. He heard his younger daughter crying inside. The front door was unlocked, so he entered the house. He found the baby sitting in her high chair at the dining room table where she had been when Cindy's sister and brother-in-law left. So I just got done talking about, right? Here's a woman, no known enemies. That doesn't give investigators much to go on,

• 7:24Speaker 00

  but they do have a pretty small window of time here where they believe the abduction happened. And then it's like, you know, as you're putting it all together, it seems pretty obvious to me, and I think it would to investigators, that this happened pretty soon after her sister and brother-in-law left. The baby was already, you know, like in a high chair, and then the baby's still in that high chair.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  So somebody came in, abducted, you know, Cindy left the baby, and then her husband comes in and finds the baby.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  And if I was the husband, I'd be wondering, did I just miss him? Did I just?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I mean, how close was I to getting there when this was all taking place?

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Was it five minutes? Was it 30 minutes, right? 45 minutes? It's somewhere in there.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Then I'd be thinking about all the cars I passed headed there coming in.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  Did I see the, yeah. Did I miss them? Cindy's brother-in-law Phil called the house around 1:15 PM to talk to Cindy. Bob answered and asked where she was. So, you know, you're finding out a little bit more, right? How they came to this kind of small window of time. Concerningly, Cindy left behind her shoes and her coat, but seemed to have taken her purse with her. And this is something that we talk a lot about, especially on Unsolved, right? What do people leave behind? And sometimes it's in the context of, well, did they,

• 9:08Speaker 00

  you know, up and leave to start a new life? Were they not happy? But here, there's a couple of things that are jumping out to me. First of all, what mother's going to leave her 11-month-old baby just sitting in the high chair?

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, very unlikely.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Very unlikely. And then who leaves the house without your shoes?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Or a coat.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Well, yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Depending on what the weather's like.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I go out all the time without a coat. I don't leave the house barefoot. That's kind of a non-starter for me.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  What if she was abducted, right? They're not going to take those items. Maybe they grabbed the purse because maybe they think there's a way to get some money from her.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe her ATM card is in there or cash is in there or whatever, but they don't care if she has to walk barefoot.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Possibly. Bob called the police to report his wife missing. And, you know, that has to be a really tough one for a husband, would be for a wife if it was the other way around. Officers found no signs of a struggle in the home, but Cindy had vanished. Her family knew she would never abandon the baby.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  No, as you just talked about, who would ever leave an 11-month-old?

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they knew she wouldn't leave without, you know, her coat or shoes or a vehicle, right? How, what is she going to do? She's walking on foot to where?

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Barefoot.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Doesn't make any sense. Investigators wouldn't comment on whether Bob was a suspect, but family members told the Sacramento Bee that Cindy and Bob had a really strong marriage. Now, make of that what you will, because we've done many cases where the marriage was said to have been great. There's no cracks. They're, you know, these people are the perfect couple. And then, you know, it all starts to come out that, no, they weren't.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  One was cheating on the other, or one was plotting to kill the other or did kill the other.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  But that wouldn't surprise me, right? Bob may not be called a suspect, but at the very least, he has to be a, a person of interest.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I think for sure.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  The husband's always gonna be.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  They're gonna look into it.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Until they're, they're ruled out.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Pastor Glenn Cole of the Capital Christian Center told the B that when he arrived at the house, Bob was lying in the backyard sobbing, uncontrolled. And, you know, you would expect a loving husband in that scenario where he thinks his wife has been abducted to kind of be inconsolable.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I think you'd either be like that, or you'd be so mad, you know, that you would just be screaming and just like.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  But the thing is, people can fake that.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  They can.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  You know, it can be faked. And police are normally pretty good, especially detectives, at telling what's real and what's not, but, you know, they can't always. Police called off intensive search efforts on November 28th, after scent dogs, helicopters, and ground searchers failed to find any trace of Cindy. So, that's why, it's like three days.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:38Speaker 00

  You know, but at a certain point, when you feel like, you know, there's nothing else to look at, or, you know, you don't have a direction, right? You've probably gone within a certain radius. Anywhere outside of that, you'd just be throwing darts at a, at the wall.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  And spending a bunch of money and, and using up a bunch of resources. Now, if you're the family, that's not gonna make you feel good, but it is the truth.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you, at this point, it's a needle in a haystack.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, at a certain point, you're, you're gonna have to wait to get some more information. Now investigators, uh, had to resolve some possible sightings. On, on December 3rd, Placer County officials issued another plea for help. Inspector Johnny Smith said, there was nothing in the family's background that was out of the ordinary. There were no indications that Cindy would have left voluntarily. And I think that's true in, in most cases.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Now, every now and then, somebody says, you know, I, I hate my life. I don't wanna, you know, go through this. I wanna do something different. Okay, well, then maybe you start to think, they could have voluntarily left to start a new life, but in most of the cases that we've done, that, that's just not how it works.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  Or how it's been.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I can see where you could say, well, maybe there's some of that, uh, postpartum, you know.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  Depression.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Depression driving this, but from everything that we heard, I don't believe that, that was the case, so if she didn't leave voluntarily, that means somebody had to come and take her. I mean, that's the only option you have left, right?

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  I, I don't know, I can't think of another option. Detectives had canvassed Granite Bay and the surrounding area, but there seemed to be no witnesses to Cindy's abduction. On December 9th, Inspector Johnny Smith announced that Cindy's bank card was used less than four hours after she disappeared, but police didn't find out until nine days later. And that kind of is shocking.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  It is.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  To me, you would think that would be one of the first things that you would check on. Now, maybe it takes some time, or took some time back then, but eight days? I don't think so.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, that's a bit of, bit of time.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  You know, to put something on her accounts, to figure out whether or not her, her bank card was used. I mean, I would think a, a call to the bank, or, you know, something like that, they'd be able to get it. Smith explained that this was due to a misunderstanding on the part of the Rancho Cordova branch of Wells Fargo. He said, the bank was asked to put a hold on the card, but someone didn't pass it on. The bank failed to report the transaction to the sheriff's office. Wells Fargo spokesman said, the bank didn't know it was expected to.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  So there's the, there's the, uh, drop in communication.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I, I, I find this to be strange, because I feel like this is CYA on the part of the, the police department.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  You're saying, oh, well, the bank didn't call us.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Why are you not monitoring?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  The transactions in, in some way. Also, I thought it was strange that they wanted a hold put on the card.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, why would you want that? Wouldn't you want them to be able to use it?

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, the way you can keep tracking it, maybe get closer and closer to whoever's using it. Right, because you put a hold on it, and it doesn't work, to me, it's almost like you, you would be endangering her life at this point.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, who, who cares if they're withdrawing money? If it means that you now have a, a possible location where, where she's at?

• 16:43Speaker 00

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• 18:12Speaker 00

  Detectives weren't notified until December 4th, when they made a routine follow-up inquiry at the bank. Cindy's card withdrew $40 at the AMPM Mini Mart at Auburn Boulevard and Greenback Lane in Citrus Heights. This is about nine miles from where she was abducted. And I thought 40 bucks doesn't seem like a lot. You know, if you're an abductor.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Trying to get money. Now, we don't know how much money they had in their account.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  It's true, I mean, they were, seemed like rough times.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think they were struggling somewhat financially, but, uh.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  But also, maybe they didn't, the people taking the money out, didn't wanna flag any systems, wanted to test it out. Is it still good? Let's take out 40 bucks and see what we get.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  That could be.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  And then they would do it again. My thought about that, though, is the more times you do it, the more chance you're probably gonna get caught, so why not get the max, whatever the max allowable is that day?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Be like a, uh, print, uh, balance out and go, okay, here's what I can get.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  And maybe 40 bucks was it. I, I don't know. But by the time detectives got to the store, the videotape system had automatically erased the image of the person who used the card.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  This is the problem of them not being notified by the bank, or by the police not scanning that on a regular basis, because if they would have, I'm guessing they could have got to the store, maybe.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  Before it, yeah. Yeah, before it was probably taped over. Whoever used the bank card also had the PIN needed to complete the transaction.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  But is that hard to do? I mean, if you kidnap somebody, probably can, unless they voluntarily give it to you just straight up, can they not, um, torture you a little bit to get that information?

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I think, yeah, they could. It's macabre to think about, but yeah, I'm sure in situations it, it does happen. But we're also assuming that an abductor.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Is using the card. At this point, detectives have no idea. It could be Cindy.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  It could be, yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Who used the card.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  They don't know. Authorities noted that Wells Fargo was contacted about the card 52 minutes before the transaction occurred on November 25th, 1991. A spokesperson, a spokesperson? Spokesperson?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Spokesperson?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  Said it was the bank's understanding that the sheriff's department had asked only to freeze the account and look up the day's activity. So, yeah, I think they're battling back and forth on.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  The blame game?

• 20:58Speaker 00

  The, yeah, putting the blame on each other. On December 14th, 1991, Cindy's body was found by a quail hunter in a mountainous area, three miles northeast of Forest Hill, near the small community of Baker Ranch. Her body was found 50 yards from Forest Hill Road, and she was found wearing only a bra.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Brutal.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  It is.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  Right? And we haven't even talked about what happened to her yet. Just the way that the person disposed of her body.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  First of all, you're, you've taken somebody's life. And then postmortem, you have desecrated, I'll use that word for a lack of a better one, them even more by leaving them out there with hardly anything on. Now, if you're a killer, you don't care.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Because if you can kill, you can do the other stuff, too.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Makes no difference to you. On December 15th, authorities announced that Cindy's cause of death was ligature strangulation. No other marks were found on her body. Investigators also said that she may have been dead for only three to five days.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  And I think that kind of makes the bank card snafu even that much bigger of a deal.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, because if they would have found out, they could have maybe seen the video and would have known who.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  Maybe gotten to her in time.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  It did appear to them that Cindy was killed elsewhere and then dumped in the forest. Criminologists speculated she was alive for possibly up to two weeks.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  After her kidnapping. And you got to think about and kind of ask the question, why? Why would that have been? We know, or we believe, right, that her abductor went to the ATM, had her PIN number, took out 40 bucks? Seems like a low amount to me.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  Maybe there was a plan to do more with money, or maybe this person just found out that she didn't have

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Much money.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Didn't have much.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Maybe there was a sexual component, right? If you're investigators, you got to think about that. Was she kept for two weeks because this person was sexually assaulting her during that period of time? You know, I, I think if you're a detective, or if you're investigators, you got to ponder all these types of questions. Why hold on to her?

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think that's a real concern. You know, why, why? What was the driving force there?

• 23:53Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  And I think you kind of, I think you kind of hit it on the head. I think it's, I think it's, you know, that sexual, why else would you keep her for two weeks? Why not just dispose of her right away?

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I don't know.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  Cindy's case quickly went cold and it remained cold for nearly 35 years. Law enforcement did test evidence over the years, but there were insufficient results due to a lack of advanced DNA technology. And again, these are things that we touch on in our unsolved episodes a lot, right? There are times, many times, when authorities have some type of evidence. Maybe it's DNA related, maybe it's not. You, you have to always keep in mind that DNA and, and different types of technology is always advancing.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  And I'm sure at some point, this case was thought to probably be unsolvable. Like they, they just probably wouldn't solve.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and if you're the killer, you're thinking, eh, life is good.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  I'm home free, right? It's been 35 years, there's no way they're going to catch me now. But in early 2026, detectives submitted a final piece of evidence to the neighboring Contra Costa Sheriff's Office Forensics Lab. According to A and E, the DNA was collected from the site where Cindy's remains were found. And they knew that it did not belong to her.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  And this new round of testing resulted in a positive identification. Placer County Sheriff's Office spokesperson Elise Soviar told Annie, this piece of evidence existed for years, but it was so small. We didn't believe we would get a match, but as DNA testing technology evolved, we decided to test it and we got a direct hit.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  This is so, this is so, I can't even speak. This is why it's so important to hold on to all this DNA, all this evidence. Because someday, maybe, you know, like she said, we couldn't get a hit for all these, for these years, but now technology improved so much that we could have something so small and get a good hit off of it.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, but for me, it's not just holding on to it, right? It's, it's how do you collect it in the beginning?

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  How do you store it?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Preserve, yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  And it, it really does amaze me sometimes that you can go back to cases where nobody even knew what DNA was, or what it was going to become, but they still followed procedures that allowed for DNA testing 30, 40 years later.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  They were smart enough to think about, let's collect this stuff, hold on to it, preserve it the best way we can, so maybe it can be used down the road.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  So the DNA turned out to belong to 64-year-old James Lawhead Jr., who was 30 at the time of Cindy's murder. Lawhead was released from prison in early 1991 after serving a prison sentence for sexual crimes involving a child. Back in 1980, he broke into a home, beat a 71-year-old grandmother nearly to death, and then raped her 11-year-old granddaughter. He was sentenced to 19 years for the crime, but he only served 11. He was released 10 months before Cindy was murdered.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Wow, what a piece of shit.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Well, and, and how mad does that make you?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  It frustrates me because, one, I mean, who gets out so early? One, I don't think 19 years is enough.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Right, the original sentence pisses me off.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  But then 19 gets whittled down to 11?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  You beat a 71-year-old woman to death, and then you raped an 11-year-old. There is no way that you should be out walking the streets in 11 years.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  That is ridiculous.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  No. And it showed, I mean, he went right back to things that he does, right? He didn't, he wasn't reformed.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  Why, why is that, though?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Because he didn't spend enough time.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Well, maybe. I, I mean, personally, that could have been a life in prison.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Could have been.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  With no parole situation, as far as I'm concerned. If you're able to do that, and then the thing I often think about is, okay, these people, they spend, you know, number of years in jail or prison, what do they do? Are they trying to better themselves? Are they trying to turn their life around? Or are they just sitting there thinking about what they're going to do when they get out? As far as the crimes that they want to commit?

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  And I think a lot of them lean towards the, the latter.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I agree with you. I mean, think about it, he was 30 when he committed this crime, did 11 years, so he was, what was that, 19? 18?

• 29:13Speaker 00

  When he committed the first crime. And maybe they took that into account, but he was still obviously an adult.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  An adult, yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  And that's such a heinous crime that I, I'm, I'm shocked that he got out in 11 years. He also had run-ins with the law after the murder. In 2002, he was arrested for failing to register as a sex offender in Placer County. He disappeared from California in 2005 after a warrant was issued for an outstanding weapons charge.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  And clearly, he's not a good guy.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  No, absolutely not. You know, if you're, again, even at 18 or 19, if you're able to commit that type of crime, or those two crimes,

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  which are about as bad as it gets.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  I, I'm okay with you never being free in society. I, I really am.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And as proven, he should have not ever came out.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  No, no, he shouldn't have, but I, I just, it really does tick me off. You know, when we, we do these kind of cases and find out that, now, you may argue that 11 years is not a slap on the wrist, but also look at the severity, right, of his crime.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  It shouldn't be even close to a slap on the wrist. And I think in context, that was a slap on the wrist for what he did.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  11 years, yes. Authorities believe he fled to Arizona and lived under an assumed identity as Vincent Reynolds.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Okay, interesting name.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Is it Vincent?

• 31:01Speaker 00

  It seems kind of benign to me. That's just old Vincent, you know?

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Vincent.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  He's not, you don't have to worry about him.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  I only knew Vincent, growing up, only one, the guy that did scary movies.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Vincent Price?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the Vincent I knew.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  I'm sure there were more.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I'm sure there was.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  I think there are quite a few names, quite a few people named Vincent.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  In California, some law enforcement agencies, including Placer County, are prohibited from using facial recognition technology to cross check photos of suspects with other images. Investigators had to seek assistance from police departments in Arizona. And I wonder why that is?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  I don't know. It seems strange. Oh, some type of privacy thing, I'm guessing?

• 31:49Speaker 00

  I guess, but.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  But at least you can go across the border and say, hey, we need your help, guys.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Can you do it? Okay, well, we'll just use your information.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  An analyst with the Scottsdale Police Department got a match on James Lawhead after finding his photo in the state's Department of Transportation database. As suspected, he was using the alias Vincent Reynolds. So obviously Vincent Reynolds worked for a very long time.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  According to CNN, the Arizona Department of Transportation's facial recognition system is usually used to flag fake driver's licenses, state IDs, and suspected identity theft.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Clearly a system that was not around when you were forging driver's license and the university you went to for, uh, help people get into bars and buy alcohol.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Allegedly.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Allegedly, yeah, sorry. Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  No, it was not. But I'm still back to, okay, that seems like a good tool to have and to use. Why would it be prohibited in some places? I'm with you. It's got to have something to do with some either real or perceived invasion of privacy.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  That's the only thing I can think of. An A D O T spokesperson told AZ family that potentially fraudulent photos undergo three levels of review by detectives trained in facial recognition. The Scottsdale P D analyst used data from the police department's license plate reader surveillance system to get a photo of one of Lawhead's registered vehicles. He was living in Bullhead City, which is over 200 miles north of Scottsdale. So pretty interesting, right? How they zeroed in on him. First, it's, okay, we're identifying him using, you know, updated advanced DNA technology.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  But then they still have to find the guy.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  And then they, they do that by kind of using some of this facial recognition technology. Lawhead was arrested at his home on April 24th, 2026. Authorities seized numerous items of evidence, including loaded firearms throughout his house. He had $15,000 in cash and a burner phone.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Because you always have to have a burner phone ready to go at any moment.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  Well, you know, a lot of people have firearms. I don't make that much of it. Now, he's a convicted felon.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Which means he shouldn't have had firearms at all.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  What I'm thinking.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Legally. He wasn't allowed to have them. Now, do people keep large amounts of cash at home? I'm sure some people do.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Sure they do.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  But you know what this screams out to me is $15,000 in cash and a burner phone? That's like, grab it and go.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Right? I gotta, they're on to me. I gotta get out of Dodge and.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  It's my backpack. What do you call those people that have backpack with everything in it ready to go?

• 35:04Speaker 00

  People with backpacks ready to go? I don't know. Is there a special?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  If you're a prepper, you have a backpack.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Oh, like a, like a, a go bag?

• 35:13Speaker 01

  A go bag.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Some people call it a go bag.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's his go bag. Like it's got probably everything he needs to go out in a few minutes. Like you have probably one. I know I have a bag that I can grab and disappear for a while.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  But I can tell you what mine doesn't have in it is $15,000 in cash and a burner phone.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  I know, I looked. I didn't see many. I was like, damn it, no cash in here.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  I can't keep any cash around here because, uh, you're like this far away from a dog, a sniffing dog. A scent sniffer.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  I just want to see if you have any of those collectibles.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. You have a nose for the green. And when I say that, I mean money.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  So Lawhead was charged with murder with the special circumstances of kidnapping and rape. Now it's said that his neighbors in Bullhead City were shocked by the arrest. Neighbor Alonso Avalos told AZ family, it's kind of concerning because you never really know who people are. It's kind of scary.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Honestly, it really is, right? I mean, you just don't know who is living next door to you.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  You know?

• 36:21Speaker 00

  I mean, and this is why I choose not to know. I don't, I choose not to get to know my neighbors.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Because, you know, if it comes out that one of them's a serial killer, I'd be like, yeah, I don't know. I really didn't know the guy.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. I don't have anything.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  It doesn't surprise me at all because I never got to know.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  But you hear that a lot.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Right? Because if you had an inkling that the person next door was a serial killer, maybe you make a call or something at some point in time. So how could you not be shocked?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  To find out that a killer is living next door to you? Cause what, what does that say about you? That you should have known or? You don't have a good sense of who people are? Now, this guy's exactly right. You don't really know.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  You don't.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Who's living next to you?

• 37:09Speaker 01

  I remember telling my neighbors when I moved in where I'm at, you know, this, what do you do? I'm like, I do this true crime podcast. They're like, hey, we gotta go, we're seeing you. I was like, okay.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah. The problem is, that's not even the, by a long shot, the scariest thing that you do.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  You, you throw that out there to, you know, move suspicion off of all the other weird stuff you're into.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  That's right. I can't help it if I'm out there at weird times of the night digging holes.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  So the next day, authorities also arrested Lawhead's 71 year old sister, Terry Lawhead Steele, and charged her as an accessory. Terry was arrested in South Carolina.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Terry had spoken with law enforcement several times over the years and spoke with detectives just weeks before her arrest. She claimed that she hadn't heard from her brother in over 20 years. But it turned out she owned the property in Bullhead City where he was living.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Full lies.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Well, what are you gonna do?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  How do you not know that he's living on your property?

• 38:18Speaker 00

  No, she knew. She definitely knew. She lied to law enforcement. You know, I get it. She was trying to help out her brother. The question is, did she really know that he was a killer? She had to have known that he was on the run, right?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Maybe not sure why.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And technically, he, he was on the run, but not really. Right? Law enforcement didn't know who he was.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Forever. So in that respect, he really wasn't on the run.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  But he did something bad enough that he had to change his name.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely. He, in his mind, he was on the run.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she knew that he changed his name. So obviously there was some type of crime committed, but what was it?

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, now he could have possibly made, um, the explanation, something like, well, I got out of prison. I wanted to change my name. Somebody might buy that.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  You know, you did something really horrible.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  So you might want a fresh start. You might want to change your name. Investigators searched Terry's home in San Clemente, California, and found evidence that she owned the Arizona home and had remained in contact with her brother over the years.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  So she was very, very much aware of where he was.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  And that's why she was charged, you know, as an accessory. I think if she'd just been honest with, you know, the police, she wouldn't have been charged.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  I think you're right. I mean, if she would have said, oh, I know, I knew where he's at or where he's been doing.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Unless there's some evidence she somehow knew about this murder, which I don't, I don't know that there was.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Lawhead was extradited to California in late April. On April 27th, 2026, the Placer County Sheriff's Office announced the arrest in a press conference. Sheriff Wayne Wu said, arguably, this is one of the most heinous notorious cold cases we have here in Placer County. Sheriff Wu talked about how they initially found no trace of Lawhead, saying, it appeared that he just disappeared since 2005. Well, and that's because he changed his name.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, moved away.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Moved away. Wu said, we've actually been looking for him for quite some time. We explored all possibilities of what could have happened. Whether he was still living under a fake identity, whether he had left the country, or whether he was even deceased. And those were, I'm sure, before they found out, all possibilities that had to be explored. Wu called the Scottsdale analyst an unsung hero in this case.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Truly was.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, detectives, investigators, they get a lot of the glory, right? In a lot of cases, but you have tons of analysts kind of working behind the scenes. They're not talking usually at a press conference, but they're doing some amazing work.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  They really are.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  And obviously whoever this was, really broke the case wide open.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  I think like, you know, analysts in this situation, nurses, you know, don't always get the credit they should, and just the doctor.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  Teachers.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Teacher, it's a, you know, the co-host of a podcast versus the main host. Sometimes the co-host doesn't get, you know, the recognition that he should.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Sometimes he gets more than what he really deserves. I, I don't know. Depends on how you look at it. For his, the amount of contributions he actually makes. Now you open this door and I'm gonna walk right through.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  That was supposed to be a one-way door, not a spinning door, not a revolving door.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  Revolving door.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that came right back around.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  So detectives were attempting to retrace Lawhead's movements over the past 20 years, including in states like Washington, Oregon, and Arizona. They were investigating whether he was connected to any other crimes.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  I feel like somebody like that just doesn't become a good person. You know what I mean?

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. So let's not forget, right? He murdered, bludgeoned to death, a 71-year-old woman, raped an 11-year-old.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  And then, within 10 months of getting out of prison, he kills again.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  So I'm right with you. So you're telling me that after that murder, he was Mr. Rogers?

• 42:56Speaker 01

  There's no way.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  There's no way. I'm not buying it.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  No. He is not a good guy and a good guy, like, so a guy like that is not gonna just all of a sudden wake up and be like, I don't know what I did back in my back, back in my days, but I'm a good person now.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's not like they found him in a year or two, right? 35 years went by. So from the time that he was 30 to the time that he was 65. Now I get it, you know, most serial killers, at a certain point, if they're not caught, they do slow down or stop probably. Maybe some due to age. I don't think they stop on their own just because they don't want to do it anymore. They might not be able to physically pull it off. The way they, they could when they were younger. But from 30 to 50, you're telling me he didn't do anything? I, I don't buy that at all. Not this guy.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Like you said, you know, he almost killed the 71-year-old and he killed this, you know, mom of a, what, 11-month-old and I can't remember how old the, the other child was, four?

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Four.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he has no heart.

• 44:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're right. I, I think I might've said a couple of times that he killed the 71-year-old grandmother. He didn't. He beat her nearly to death, but still horrible.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Right? It's just, there's no doubt about it. This was a, a terrible individual. So further investigation later revealed. Lawhead's registered residence in 1991 was just 1.4 miles from where Cindy's ATM card was fraudulently used after she disappeared.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  So just a little bit more than a mile down the road. I mean, that's pretty convenient.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  The Placer County Sheriff's Office said, "We encourage law enforcement agencies, specifically those across the West Coast, to look at any cold cases that may have similarities to this case and reach out to our team at 530-889-7835." And that happens quite a bit, right? Once somebody is found out, caught, I think a lot of agencies in the surrounding area and the region, they start to look at some of their cold cases and see, you know, whether or not they fit this person's MO, their pattern.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  I just don't think a guy like this would just go dormant.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Nope. I, I, I'm right with you. In those 35 years, I guarantee he left a trail of more carnage.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  On June 16th, 2026, the Placer County DA's office announced that James Lawhead pleaded guilty to murder and acknowledged special circumstance allegations, that the killing occurred during the commission of kidnapping and rape. His sister Terry pleaded no contest to accessory.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  And that, you know, depending on, that can be a very serious charge.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Could be, can be.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  On July 14th, 2026, James Lawhead waived his appellate rights and accepted a sentence of life without parole. His sister was sentenced to time served with two years of probation.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  So she got off light.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  She got off light, but I mean, what did she really do?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  She lied, which she shouldn't have done, but I don't know that she knew that he had killed someone. I don't know that.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  I hope not. I hope that if she would have known that, she would have did the right thing.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  But you never know.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Now.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Siblings and...

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think if they had any proof of it, then she probably would have gotten more time.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  So whether she knew or not, it's hard to say. What I can say is they probably didn't have proof.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  That she knew about that. They had proof that she lied to them. But you know, what gets me, Gibbs, is, okay, he accepted this, you know, sentence of life without parole. I can make the argument, he should have got that before. I get it, it wasn't a murder, but when you beat someone nearly half to death and, you know, you rape an 11-year-old child, I can make the argument for it.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  I think you can.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Now, I don't know what the sentencing guidelines were in the 80s. They probably were different and they didn't allow for that.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  But, you know, if he was in there longer, then maybe Cindy would have never been...

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely. You can, you can make that argument.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Now, he might have killed somebody the minute he did get out, if he got out.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  But it probably wouldn't have been Cindy. Sheriff Wu said after the sentencing, "In my 36-year career, I don't know that I've ever seen a homicide case of this nature from arrest to conviction so quickly once the breakthrough occurred. While nothing can erase the pain this family has endured for the past 25 years, I hope today's outcome provides them with answers and allows them to begin moving forward." And I think the reason why it moved so quickly was because, you know, he dropped all his rights to appeal and, you know, accepted that life sentence.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  I mean, at least he did that. I mean, I don't want to give the guy much credit.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  At all. But at least he, or his attorneys advised him to do this because at the end of the day, I'm assuming it was the way to get any death penalty off the table?

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it didn't say that in the research, but I'm, I'm sure.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  That they might have floated that out there.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  As, as kind of a, a carrot, right? To get him to plead guilty. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Cindy Wanner's murder was solved through a combination of advanced DNA testing and facial recognition technology. All of that, always fascinating to me, right? The technology aspect of crime fighting.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  The forensics part. I've said it before, if I was 18 years old, trying to figure out what I was gonna do, I, I think nowadays I would probably go down that road.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he would.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  Not something I thought about when I was 18 years old, but...

• 49:13Speaker 01

  No, you were thinking...

• 49:13Speaker 00

  It was all about computers back then.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  You were thinking about other things.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  Oh, I was thinking, but yeah, I didn't even do the computer stuff I tried to do. There was, uh, there was girls, there was beer, there was partying, there was too much going on. But there was a lot in the research about this facial recognition kind of being a developing field, which everything is always developed.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Sure it is.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  We know it is. It, it has benefits for law enforcement and can help solve cases when used correctly. But apparently there are flaws in this, or these developing systems as well. Image quality, camera angles, and lighting can affect whether the, the system works the way it's supposed to work. There can be false matches, misidentifications, and maybe that's why there are some areas and jurisdictions that don't allow it to be used.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I get that, because I know when I use my facial, facial recognition on my iPhone, a lot of times, and like in the morning, I'll hold it up and it'll be like...

• 50:19Speaker 00

  Who is this old dude?

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who the hell are you? I'm like, hey, it's the same guy that was using this last night. What do we mean?

• 50:27Speaker 00

  I just haven't put my face on yet.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  I haven't, I haven't used my foundation, my blush, all my tools.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  For the blood to get where it needs to be, I don't know.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I, but you know, maybe that's, that's part of it because, you know, a false match, a misidentification.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  Well, we all know what that could do to somebody's life.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Ruin it.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  It could be catastrophic.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  And there are privacy concerns as well, which we hinted at earlier. Lawmakers are currently trying to regulate this new technology, but the rules vary state by state. I, I do think it's, it's a technology that will continue to be used to help solve murders, you know, in the coming years, but it does sound like it has its detractors, which, let's face it, DNA does as well.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I agree, yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  You know, in the 10 years we've been doing this podcast, just think about, you know, the, the fighting over DNA and, uh, public databases and, you know, law enforcement using those and, and all that stuff that's happened.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  But I do think about the last 10 years, how far we've come.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  It's amazing. It really is.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And like we always talk about, if you're a killer and you've gotten away with something, I, I think now, in 2026, you gotta be nervous. It would be pretty hard not to be.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  You know, especially if you knew they had any type of DNA, you, you'd have to be really, really nervous.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  But that's it for our episode on Cindy Wanner and another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  We'll talk to you next week.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll see you next week, as always.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Keep your own time ticking, because that's important.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  It's always important.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Later, y'all.