Ann Racz

In April 1991, Ann Mineko Racz, a devoted mother of three from Valencia, California, disappeared just days after separating from her husband, John, and serving him with divorce papers. She was last seen after dropping her children off at their father's house and telling them she was going to McDonald's to buy dinner. She never returned. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Ann Racz. Although her body has never been found, investigators eventually built a circumstantial murder case against her husband, resulting in his conviction more than 16 years later. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:54Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 512 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm OK, man. I mean, got this kidney stone I'm trying to get rid of, but outside of that, I'm good. How about you?

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and I'm doing great, feeling good. But yeah, you shocked me with that news yesterday.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  Kidney stone invading.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Never fun.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  They hurt. Man, I do not like them at all. So I'm, I'm, I'm feeling for you on that one.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Hey, I heard it was your birthday too.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, not today, but yeah, I had my birthday earlier this week.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Happy 63rd.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  I appreciate it. I appreciate it. You're only 10 years off, but uh, sometimes I feel like 83.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Do you? Yeah.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Sometimes.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Sometimes you look like you're 83.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  Sometimes I do.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I appreciate that. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Deborah Love.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Hey, Love.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  Amy Howard.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  What's going on, Amy?

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Katie Hogg.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Hey, Katie.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Karina Flores.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Oh, hey, Karina.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Ashley Hughes.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Thanks, Ashley.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Beth Lawler jumped out to her highest level.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Love me, Beth. Thank you.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Did you say love me?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  I love me some Beth, but I said, love me.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Love me, Beth. She's like, okay. And then last but not least, Kate Ash.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Hey, Kate.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Don Black.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Hey, Don, appreciate that.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, appreciate all the Patreon support. We also had some great PayPal support from Jody Reynolds.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Look at Jody coming over on the top like that.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, very much appreciated.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Very much.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  I don't think you should be telling people to love you.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I mean it in a loving, like love me.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Love me. Very demanding. Love me, damn it. All right. So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Katie Janess. She and her dog were stabbed to death in Piedmont Park in Atlanta, Georgia in 2021. So this case is not that old.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  And almost five years later, her, her murder remains unsolved. And we dive into all the details. And then on Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about the 1998 murder of five-year-old Quatisha Maycock. This is a horrifying story, Gibbs. She was murdered by a man who her mother befriended.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Thought was a good guy. Turned out he was a terrible person.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Very terrible.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Who had. A criminal history longer than yours and much, much more horrible.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a rough one to do, but it's such a good case. Like you said, this guy, his record and the things that he attempted, I'll leave it at that.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, we don't want to give too much away, but definitely check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yes, I am.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  We are talking about Ann Manico Roth. In April, 1991, Ann Roth served her husband, John, divorce papers. After 19 years of marriage, four days later, Ann dropped their three children off for a visit with John and left to buy them food. She was supposed to return promptly, but Ann has never been seen or heard from since.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Serving divorce papers, that's gotta be rough, you know? I mean, look, I've been divorced.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  I never had to have the papers served, you know? But if you're serving them or being served, that means maybe you don't know it's coming. Sometimes I think that that happens, like you just don't know. And then that's how you find out. That would be rough.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  It would be. Now, maybe you have an inkling that the marriage is not doing great, but to be surprised with divorce papers, that could really throw somebody for a loop. Ann Manico Roth was born on January 17th, 1949 in Hawaii and came from a Japanese American family. She was married to John Roth and they shared three children. They lived in the Valencia neighborhood of Santa Clarita, California. Did you ever see that show, The Santa Clarita Diet?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  I seen like previews for it.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I never watched it.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  I'm pretty sure Drew Barrymore was some kind of vampire or something.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think who the guy was in it.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was kind of a well-known person too, but I can't remember. And us not remembering makes for great podcasts.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  It really does. I was like, well, you know, right now, somebody is listening.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  A lot of people.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  And such and such.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  Are you guys idiots? Why can you not remember?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Have you ever heard of Google? Google it while you're on, you know, doing the podcast.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  No.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Too easy.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  We never do. So John was a former LA County Sheriff Sergeant, but he retired in the 1980s and worked as an elementary school teacher in Compton. Anne was a devoted and caring mother. She was well-known and popular in her community. She spent much of her time volunteering at her children's schools and at New Hall Presbyterian Church.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Wish I could volunteer more.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  I wish you could too.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  I just do. I'm like.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  You notice I didn't say I wish I could volunteer more.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  I picked up on that pretty quick. I just wish I could find that time and that energy to do what these good people out there do.

• 7:21Speaker 00

  Well, to be fair, you and I do donate through our Patreon to some very, very worthy causes, but donating your own time is that next level.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  It is.

• 7:34Speaker 00

  You do have a full-time job and podcast on top of it.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  That is very true.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  So you don't have a lot of free time.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Not to mention the fact that you're engaged to someone who lives in Canada.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Well, that is a three-hour drive there and back every weekend.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  And back.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Anne and John were married for 19 years. By 1991, their children, Joanne, Glenn, and Caitlin, were 14, 11, and seven years old, respectively. On April 18th, 1991, Anne separated from John. She took the kids and moved into a new apartment. The following day, she served him with divorce papers. At the same time, she was seeing another man and planned to be with him in the future. And then just a few days later, on April 22nd, 1991, Anne disappeared without a trace. That day, Anne dropped the three children off for a visit with John at the family home in Valencia.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  She planned to stop at a nearby McDonald's to buy hamburgers for the children. She was expected to return quickly, but she never did. Anne has not been seen or heard from since she pulled out of the driveway that day. Exactly when and who reported Anne missing is unclear, which, you know, we'll get into in-depth, right, later in the episode. What we do know is that police questioned John from the beginning, and he gave an unusual story to investigators.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  John told the police that Ann had gone on an extended trip, possibly to Japan. On April 22nd, he talked to Ann and told her he wanted to see their kids. He offered her $25,000 to take a trip and contemplate their marriage.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  It is kind of a strange story, right? One, you're saying she probably went to Japan because I told her she needed to take some time and think about, you know, leaving me and I offered her 25,000 of our money. Right? Cause it's gotta be, I mean, they're still married.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  It's still their money. It's a story that I think would, you know, kind of raise some eyebrows if you heard it. Not that it couldn't happen, but is it the most logical? John also claimed that he met with Ann twice in the two days following April 22nd and that she called him from the LA airport notifying him of her travel plans. Now, the one thing that you know is that John's gonna be questioned. There's no way around that. He's the husband. He's just been served divorce papers. Okay. Does he have a motive for wanting Ann dead? Possibly.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  He's gotta be questioned. He has to be eliminated as a suspect.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Well, he's saying, look, she called me two days afterwards. She's at the LA airport. She told me that she planned on, you know, going here or there, right?

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Taking a trip.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Detectives attempted to corroborate John's claims, but they suspected Ann was the victim of foul play. And that tells me right away that not only did they think John's story was a little fantastical, they probably didn't really believe him.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  According to the Charlie project, investigators found a cold pizza sitting on the kitchen table in Ann's condo. They thought this was odd because Ann was said to be a meticulous housekeeper who would not leave food out for long periods of time. You know who else is a meticulous housekeeper?

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Not you.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Not me, but somebody in this house is.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, your wife.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  My wife.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  As much as I talk about, you know, her cooking, she is an unbelievable housekeeper. To my detriment at times because she, you know, I can be lazy and leave stuff out and that is a no-go in her book.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  But she's also the type of person that scrubs dishes and cleans them and then puts them in the dishwasher.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, with soap and everything. I'm like, they're already clean now.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Just put them away.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Just dry them off and put them away. Ann was also not the type of person to go on a trip without telling anyone. In fact, when she went on vacations, she liked to pre-address mailing labels so she could send postcards to her loved ones.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  All right, that's a little bit extreme.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  It is extreme, but it's, it's those things that we talk about, right? People have routine.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Now, this is not an everyday thing, but it is a routine in that this is what she does when she, you know, takes trips. She does have a routine when it comes to, you know, keeping her house clean. And you wouldn't expect a person like that to leave a pizza just sitting out on the kitchen table.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  No, I mean, some people like cold pizza and they're leave it out overnight, but.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, preferably cold, meaning you put it in the fridge, not cold as you left it on a table overnight.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  I've had buddies that would leave it out, just.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Oh, I did that in college because we didn't have a refrigerator big enough to put the pizza box in, but.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  And you were okay just chancing it with your gun.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Oh, at 19, who cares?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  You know, who cares?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  You probably had enough alcohol on you to kill it.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  To kill any bacteria. But, you know, in, in, in my 50s, even in my 40s, 30s, I tend to take food safety a little differently than I did when I was 19 years old and in, and in college. On April 26, 1991, Ann's Plymouth station wagon was found abandoned at the Van Nuys Flyaway Park and Ride Lot for travelers heading to the LA airport. There was no sign of her there. Investigators couldn't find Ann's name on any flight manifest. John spoke to the press on May 20th and said his family was in turmoil and reiterated the sheriff's department

• 13:50Speaker 00

  plea for information. He declined to speculate on whether Ann might have gone back to Japan, saying, per the Signal newspaper, "I'd just like to say that we'd like her to return home. If she reads this, or if anyone knows her whereabouts, we'd like her back."

• 14:09Speaker 01

  But she wasn't on any manifest. And if you're flying international, you would think you'd be on some type of manifest.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, now I get it. It's 1991. It's pre 9/11. Things were a little bit different, but I'm still thinking, record-keeping wise, they knew who was on the plane and who wasn't. It's casting a lot of doubt on John's story.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  But you still have to wonder, how did the car get there? Or why is her car there?

• 14:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Did somebody drive it there? Did she drive it there? In June, Santa Clarita Sheriff's investigators focused on the Hamburger Hill fast food area in search of evidence. That year, crews dug at six sites around Solidad Canyon and Spring Canyon Roads. They were led to this area by two psychics. In August 1991, authorities said that John was not a suspect. However, papers like the Signal reported that moments after Ann left to get food, John told the kids, "He was going to the same McDonald's." He returned a short time later with cold food for the children.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  So she said she was gone. He said, hold on, I'm gonna go, I'll be back kids. And then he comes back with cold food, meaning either did he get the food from that she might've got?

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Or was he gone long enough for it to go cold because he was doing something nefarious?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And you know, McDonald's fries are not good cold.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Half the time, they're not good warm. Brother, I gotta be honest with you. I'm not here to bash on McDonald's and maybe it's just the one by my house. But it is real spotty and hit and miss lately.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  You know, McDonald's fries used to be the, the end all be all.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  They are not anymore. When they're fresh, they're amazing. But a lot of the time anymore, they are not super fresh.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  It's hard to get fresh ones anymore.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  It is, which makes no sense because the place is packed at all hours of the day and night.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  I don't know if they're not cooking them long enough. I don't know what's going on.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  The whole system's gone out the window. I do love their coke though.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  Well, I think we've talked about it before. They do have an amazing carbonation system.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  They do.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Second to none.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Could I get that carbonation system at home?

• 16:40Speaker 00

  You probably could. It's gonna cost a lot of money.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know me, I'm tight on my funds.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Eventually Anne's case went cold. 15 years passed without answers. Police did not officially name John as a suspect. And we said that, right? But they could never rule him out either. So I get it. It's tough to come out and officially say.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  This person is a suspect. I think you have to meet some criteria of having at least some sort of evidence to, to go out on a limb with that, that type of, you know, proclamation. But they definitely can't rule him out either. There's a lot of smoke there.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Surrounding him.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  They can leave him as a person of interest.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  In June 2006, authorities announced that new information may lead to the recovery of Anne's body 15 years after she went missing. Detectives were awaiting a search warrant to investigate a possible graveside. The Signal reported that John had since hired an attorney and refused to speak to police.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  They can't blame him.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  No. Now, is it because he was just tired of maybe being on the radar for so long? Or was it because things were heating up in the case and he was getting a little worried?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Things getting a little too close to home?

• 18:07Speaker 00

  Maybe. On July 7, 2006, detectives searched John's home in Valencia, but found nothing to indicate Anne was buried there. And it's not that people don't do it, but I feel like it's not the smartest thing in the world to murder someone and then bury their body on your own property.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  That's what Casey said.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. He got away with it for a while.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  I just feel like it's very hard, if it's discovered, to make any type of argument that you didn't know about it, or you didn't have a hand in it.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  But think about how many serial killers did that, right? I mean, I was joking about Gacy, but Gacy and Herb.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  Baumeister. Yeah, a lot of people have done it.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  The husband-wife, the West family, the couple.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Fred and Rosemary.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, out on their back patio. I mean, it's like.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Well, even Ed Kemper. I mean, there's, there are a ton of people.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  I mean, they're just, I think they don't, they feel like they're never going to get caught.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do think that about a lot of killers. A company contracted by the Sheriff's Department used sonar to search six feet into the ground. There were a couple of spots that indicated a disturbance. The search continued and cement was dug up, but nothing was found. But what it did, this dig, was prompt investigators to reopen the case. In October 2006, John Rotz was indicted for murder. The grand jury heard from 19 witnesses, including John and Ann's now adult children. John was arrested on October 21st, 2006, as he stepped off a flight from Thailand.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Detectives were tipped off about his arrival to the US by Thai officials.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Collaboration.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, is it that he just decided he wanted to visit Thailand? Maybe? Was he running from somewhere? Did he think that was someplace they couldn't get him? I don't know.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Maybe he just liked going over the Thai land.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  Maybe. Captain Ray Peavy was the one who ordered Ann's case to be reopened. He told the LA Times after the arrest, "We attempted to eliminate him as a suspect, which we would do in any case involving the death of a spouse. We were never able to eliminate him. In fact, the harder we looked at the case and the more information we gained, the better he looked as a suspect." Which makes sense, right? I don't know how you could arrest somebody for murder just because you're unable to eliminate

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  them. You've got to have more than that.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  But as you take, you know, each look deeper and deeper and that person becomes a greater suspect or person of interest, then, you know, obviously you're going to shift your mindset.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Peavy acknowledged that detectives still had work to do in building their case because Ann's body had not been found. And we know that, right? We've heard it time and time again.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  The no body cases are harder. They're being prosecuted more and more and have been over the years, but I still think they're a little tougher. John's attorney denied that he was involved and accused one of the original detectives of having a personal crusade against his client. John pleaded not guilty to murder. During his first court appearance, the trial started with jury selection on June 18th, 2007.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  During the selection process, the defense characterized Anne as unhappy and tired of the responsibilities of raising children. They also alluded to a year-long affair with her high school sweetheart that started in 1990. John didn't learn of this affair until a year after Anne left. According to the defense, Anne moved herself and the kids out on April 18, 1991, while John was at work. She served him divorce papers the next day. They went to marriage counseling over the weekend and met in the driveway of the home. On the day of Anne's disappearance, John told Anne he would give her $25,000 to use while traveling and contemplating their marriage.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, here's $25,000. Take it, travel.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  Back to your point, I mean, they haven't split assets at that juncture. Also, though, $25,000 is a ton of money in 1991.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Sure was.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  Now, traveling to Japan, I'm sure, is not cheap.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  No, it's gonna cost you some money there, too.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  But the prosecution called this story nonsensical and described John as a controlling husband who was not going to let Anne leave him. Opening statements began on June 21. Prosecutors maintain that John killed Anne on April 22, 1991. Deputy DA John Lewin relied on circumstantial evidence and logic to build the case.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  That's all they had.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, he doesn't have a lot in the way of physical evidence. Number one, he doesn't have a body. And so it's hard to have a ton of physical evidence, I think, without the body. Lewin told the jury, as quoted by the LA Times, "Whether you have a body or not, it's clear she's dead. And once you agree she's dead, it's clear she died on April 22, 1991."

• 23:40Speaker 01

  There is, he's trying to use that logic.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, and I think if you're a juror, okay, it does make some sense. You know, we don't believe this is a woman who just ran off and left her kids. And since nobody has seen her since April 22 of 1991.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Can you assume that that's when she died?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Well, like you said, you know, she's got kids and there's nothing that we saw in the research that said she doesn't want to be with her kids. She absolutely adored her kids.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Well, and also there was an affair going on and she had plans to be with someone else.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  So she's leaving that person behind as well if she just takes off to start a new life.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Doesn't make sense.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  It doesn't. The jury heard that Ann lived in fear of John throughout their marriage. She told friends he threatened to kill her if she dared to leave him. The prosecution also pointed out conflicts with John's original statements to investigators as well as to friends and family. He claimed he met Ann on April 24th at a restaurant to give her $7,000 as part of the total $25,000 he planned to give her for her travels. He claimed Ann called him from the airport. But John's claims that he was in contact with Ann after April 22nd fell apart under scrutiny. According to Deputy DA Lewin, you would have to believe

• 25:14Speaker 00

  that Ann Rotts, who was a dedicated mother, abandoned her children and disappeared with no word to anyone in her life. But the one person she's afraid of and doesn't want to see anymore, he's the only one she's talking to. It's absurd.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  It is. It's unbelievable.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  It is. I think that that word or that term nonsensical really does fit.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  It just does not make sense. She didn't like this man. She didn't want to be married to this man anymore. Yet of all the people, friends and family, he's the only person she's going to talk to after April 22nd.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  The prosecution also noted that Ann was reported missing by her pastor who had been giving the couple marriage counseling and was familiar with Ann's fears.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  So there's some accountability right there, right? He's saying what you're hearing about her being afraid of him is true.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, according to him. Also, he's the one reporting her missing.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, not her soon to be ex-husband.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  No, but why would he if he's talking to her right in the days after?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  But if those claims start to fall apart, then everything starts to fall apart. In their opening statement, the defense reiterated their claim that Ann was unhappy with her marriage. They alluded to a 1991 statement from the Roths's oldest daughter, Joanne, who was 14 at the time, in which she recalled Ann speculating that maybe she would just leave. And perhaps the family would be better off without her. At first, no one thought she was serious. And, and you know, let's be honest, a lot of people have probably made off the cuff statements like that.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  In a, in a moment of anger or, you know, disappointment or fear or whatever it is. Doesn't mean they want to do it or, or are going to do it, but they've said things like that.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  It happens.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  You guys would be better off if I just left, right? I mean, who hasn't said that? I don't think I have, but I'm sure a lot of people have.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  People do say things like that.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  They do. They don't really mean it. And most people don't follow through.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Those are just kind of quick, off the cuff type of anger remarks that very quickly go away.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  It's like me over here on pizza night saying, can't believe you got mushrooms and olives again. I'm leaving. And then, you know, quickly turn back around, sit down and eat the pizza that has mushrooms and olives on it.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, you picked the mushrooms and olives off, but you're not going to miss a free meal.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's steam's still coming off the pizza.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  That's one thing we know about you.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Ann's pastor, Glenn Thor, who started marriage counseling with the couple in 1990, said that Ann was a faithful, loving mother who was threatened by her husband. Ann confided in her pastor that John threatened her by saying, if you ever leave me, I'll find you. No matter where you go, I'm going to stop you.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  There's those threats again that I cannot stand. It's like, people, if you don't want to be with somebody, or more importantly, if someone doesn't want to be with you, let them go. Why are you holding on to them for?

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't understand that mentality. I really don't. You know, if I thought someone didn't like me, didn't want to be friends with me, didn't want to be married to me, the last thing I would do is threaten them to stay.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  I already know they're not happy. Why would I want them to stay if they're not happy? But I think, you know, some of these individuals, they just have that mentality that they're not gonna lose.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  They're not gonna give in regardless of the feelings of the other person. It's almost like those feelings don't matter.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  No, they don't.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  What I care about matters, and I want you to stay. I don't care if you're happy or not. And if you try to leave, then something bad is gonna happen.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz that's real love right there, right?

• 29:33Speaker 00

  It may be in their mind, in some warped way it is. I don't know. Ann also told him that John threatened to kill her. According to the Signal, Pastor Thorpe described Ann as a lovely, caring woman who really loved life, loved her children, loved her faith, and was a giving person.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  So this loving, caring woman that loved her children, loved her faith, was just gonna walk away from all that?

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Well, and you also have to, you know, wonder how this testimony by the pastor is coming across. You would think most people would find a person like this pretty credible.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it comes with some credibility, for sure.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Now, there's a hearsay angle of it.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Right? She told him, he's telling the court, but do you place a little more accuracy on a pastor than maybe you do other people, especially people who have maybe an axe to grind, or have a reason for saying something? And I would say most people probably would. Anne had long felt controlled by John and was forced to do things she didn't want to do. She felt suffocated. And this is the pastor talking. He said the control extended into their sex life. Thorpe also said he filed a missing persons report on May 1st, which contradicted John's claims that he reported Anne missing.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Well, what you don't want to be, you don't want to be the husband that doesn't report your missing spouse and somebody else does because that's not going to make you look good.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  Well, it also doesn't make you look good because of the scenario. Right? She says, I'm going to McDonald's to get the kids some food. I'll be back. And then she doesn't come back.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  You don't find that odd?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  But yet you run to McDonald's and get the kids some food and come back. And she's still not back. You didn't see her at McDonald's. So at that point, would you not think something has happened?

• 31:39Speaker 00

  At a certain point, you would, right? Now, we said it, right? There was, it was a little bit gray as far as who reported who missing. But obviously we have the pastor testifying that he did. Other character witnesses testified that Anne was a loving and dedicated mother who volunteered at her children's school and was involved in their after school activities. She would never abandon her children for years without contacting them. And I feel like that about most mothers. There are some who do it. We've seen it happen. But by and large, most mothers would never abandon their children.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  No, it'd be tough.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Peter Dana, the retired principal of the elementary school where John taught after retiring from the police force, testified that John lied about filing a missing persons report. On April 18th, 1991, John called him and said his wife had taken the kids and left him and asked for some time off work. John was emotional and asked a series of out of place questions such as, do you think that I'm the kind of guy who would be violent? Do you think I'm a mean person? Do you think I'm the kind of person who would hurt someone?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Those would be strange questions to ask.

• 33:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  If I asked you those questions about me, you would probably think, what did you do this time?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would answer yes to all three. But then after that, it would be like, okay, why are you even bringing this stuff up?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  When you're just asking for some time off work and you said your wife has taken the kids. How does this play in?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  It's a little bit too much information. Or are you trying to initially plant something in my head that your wife took the kids and left, but then you follow up with these strange questions? Like, I could see if he called and said, hey, I need to take some time off. My wife took, left me and took the kids, left it at that. But to go into this series of questions about, am I a violent person? Do I do this? Do I do that? What's the reason behind it?

• 34:01Speaker 00

  John didn't come back to work until April 29th. Dana noticed a one to two inch scratch on John's jaw towards his neck. John also didn't reveal that Ann was missing until May 18th. And that's when he indicated he filed a missing persons report. So that is about a month later.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  That's a long time to wait to even talk about a missing persons report or say that Ann is missing. And that's if he actually even did file one.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  The jury heard that the day before she went missing, Ann wrote a letter to her longtime friend and secret lover, Robert Russell, about their relationship. And she expressed relief about moving out of her family home and her pending divorce. Russell testified that he and Ann made plans prior to her moving out. He planned to sell his house in Northern California to move with his daughter into a home with Ann and her children. They were going to visit Disneyland with their kids in June 91.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  So they had a plan?

• 35:13Speaker 00

  They had a number of plans. So again, if you're looking at the probability that Ann just kind of up and left, does it seem more likely or less likely knowing that she had what appeared to be a good relationship with this guy? They made plans to move in together. I'm not buying it.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  No, me neither.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Ann also told Russell her husband was abusive and she was afraid he would retaliate. Now, Russell didn't push for details. He testified that Ann wanted to move quickly and silently.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  If John was actually the type of guy she said he was, then you would want to avoid any confrontational run ins.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I think she knew he was not going to take it well.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Ann and John reportedly had a heated argument after meeting with Pastor Glenn Thorpe to discuss custody of their kids the day after the divorce papers were served. Ann told Russell about the argument over the phone. She wrote in her April 21st letter to Russell, which was postmarked April 22nd. I'm exclusively yours. You've always had my love. I will never have sex with John again. I will never touch him again. I'm free. Neighbor Thomas Deardorff testified that he was washing his car in the driveway on April 22nd, 1991, when he saw John and Ann talking to each other in their front

• 36:45Speaker 00

  yard. Ann drove away. He flagged her down to ask about a babysitting arrangement. Ann told him she had to get the kid something to eat. Shortly after she left, John drove down the street. Deardorff said John seemed intent and did not wave in his direction, something he normally did.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Like John had, uh, was on a mission.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, like he was hyper focused.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Members of Ann's Bible study group testified that she shared her plans to leave John. During an April 16th meeting, she expressed fear about the fact that John kept guns in their home. Member Pat Cottrell testified that Ann told stories of how John would sit alone in the dark, planning the perfect crime.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Scary.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Very scary. I don't know what all's involved with sitting in the dark. Quote unquote, planning the perfect crime, but not something I sit around doing.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  But clearly she, she knew she was leaving him. She told many people that she was leaving him.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  You know what, what her plans were.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  So you know what she didn't tell many people was that she was going to just completely leave and run away.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  And do you think she'd have told maybe one person? And see, that's another thing that always gets me.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  This is not a woman who, you know, didn't have friends, wasn't sharing information with a multitude of people.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  But yet the one thing she's actually going to do, according to John, anyway.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  She decides to completely keep hidden from everyone she knows.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Just tell him that she's leaving.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. The one person she's not comfortable being around.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  The jury also heard from Ann's daughter, Joanne, who was one of the last people to see her alive and picked her up from school. On April 22nd, then picked up her brother Glenn, then the youngest daughter Caitlin from a Girl Scouts meeting. She drove them to see their father. According to Joanne, as quoted by the Signal. She told us that she needed to talk to my dad and we were to go in the house and wait. Ann parked in the garage. She stayed in the car and the kids went inside. John came outside and talked to Ann through the open window. About 15 minutes later, Joanne went into the garage and saw them still talking.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  According to Joanne, it seemed like a normal talk and they appeared to be getting along. She asked when they were going to eat. Ann said she was going to McDonald's to get them food. Joanne went back inside. Then John came into the house and announced he was going to get them food. She never saw Ann leave the driveway. And that's a, that's an interesting statement.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we know she did based on what the neighbor said. But here's a, uh, here's the one daughter saying, look, mom said she was gonna go get his food. And then next thing I know dad's coming in saying, nope, he's gonna go get, uh, get his food. And that's the last thing that she recalls. And we know from the neighbor, both of them went down the road. You know, she said she was gonna go to McDonald's. We don't know what, what his intentions were, besides what he told the kids. But we know that he was focused and didn't want to stop for the neighbor.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  Joanne testified that she didn't have a clear recollection of how long John was gone. But the food was cold when he returned. Joanne said she expected her mother to return to pick them up because they were going to have pizza in the new apartment that night. Instead, they spent the night with their dad without their clothes or backpacks with their school supplies, which were left in Ann's car. So that's another thing, right? You would have to believe that Ann left her children and took all their school books, their backpacks, all their school supplies, all that stuff with her.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  When, when she didn't need to, she could have left that behind.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Right? Now, you know, she talks about how they were supposed to go back to the new apartment, have pizza. And when they check Ann's apartment, they found pizza in there. Now, how'd that get there? Was that place before they left? Was that something that somebody, you know, knew that the kids thought they were gonna have pizza when they came home? And went out and placed it in the apartment?

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a great question. On April 23rd, Joanne returned to her dad's home to find the school books, backpacks, and her makeup kit that she left in Ann's car on the kitchen table. John claimed Ann dropped them off. So now you have to believe that Ann ran away. At some point she realized she had all the kids' stuff. And she came back to John's house and said, here's all the kids' stuff.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is where all his stories don't add up.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  And it's where just nothing really makes sense. It just doesn't. John told her that Ann told him they wanted to stay with him. And she went away to think, but he gave no further details. Joanne worried about her mother and called friends and family later that day. Joanne testified she was worried because they had just moved and she knew Anne was not planning a trip anytime soon. She didn't believe her dad and she persistently questioned him about where Anne might be. She was so frustrated that she theorized her mom must be dead during a May 1991 interview with investigators.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  And I think that says a lot if you're investigators.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  It does.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Into the mindset of, you know, the child that she's of the opinion, no way mom would leave, she must be dead. In the months and years that followed Anne's disappearance, her dad showed little interest in Anne's whereabouts and efforts to assist investigators. He told Joanne to let it go and repeated the claim that Anne abandoned the family. And I don't know, Gibbs, I've never been divorced. I understand that it could be really tough, but I feel like even if the divorce was contentious.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  If that person was missing, knowing that they're still the mother of your children, at some point you'd have to put any animosity you had aside and you'd have to be worried about her.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Of course. Well, and you have a history with that person. And secondly, like you more and more importantly, that's the mother of your kids.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  And to tell your daughter to let it go, how are you just gonna let it go that mom is no longer around?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  You can't say something like that. You shouldn't say something like that.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  John told Joanne that he met with Anne on April 23rd and April 24th. However, Joanne didn't think it was in John's character to have given Anne thousands of dollars because he was said to be extremely frugal. And I am looking at someone who I know is extremely frugal. And I don't even know if frugal captures it. So if you had any type of story that revolved around you giving someone, you know, especially your ex-wife, thousands and thousands of dollars willingly, color me skeptical.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  You used the word willingly.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Aside from any court ordered money that you have to give her.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  There's a big difference.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  There is a big difference there, but you know what I'm saying? Like if you came to me and said, wow, I gave her some money to go take a trip and nobody's ever heard from her again.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm probably going to be testifying at your trial.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, here's a number to a good defense attorney.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Cause that story's not adding up at all. I gotta be honest with you. Judith Carter, a divorce lawyer and personal friend of Anne's testified that Anne said she didn't love John and had told him so, but she was still afraid of him. When asked how John responded to Anne's confession that she didn't love him, Carter testified that Anne told her he was trying to change, but it was too late and she wanted out of the marriage. Anne talked to Carter about an argument she and John had in the summer of 1990. John was so angry, he broke his hand by pushing on the door, which scared Anne. I do think Anne was scared, you know, based on all the different things she said. Now, could she have been lying?

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess possibly, but she was confiding in a lot of different people, including a pastor, her pastor.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people that knew.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  And are corroborating her story.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  You know, whose story is not able to be corroborated?

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, John.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  John's Nancy Newhall of Valencia resident who knew Anne through the HOA testified that on April 25th, 1991, she saw Anne driving near the intersection of Wiley Canyon Road and Lions Avenue in Newhall. They acknowledged each other. However, it seems that this remains an unconfirmed sighting.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  People can be confused on what they see, when they saw it and

• 46:28Speaker 00

  who they thought it was. They thought it was somebody and it turns out not to be. The jury later heard from Ann and John's other children, Glenn and Caitlin, who testified about their experiences with John after their mom went missing. In closing arguments, the prosecution told the jury that John's story just doesn't work. John was the only one with the motive, means and opportunity to kill Ann. John didn't want her to get half of the estate and he knew of her affair with Robert Russell. Prosecutor Beth Silverman argued that John followed Ann to McDonald's and he knew of the undeveloped area near the McDonald's and he had all week to dispose of the body.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  He had plenty of time to set up a cover up. Man, so many times, Gibbs, it just comes back to love slash hate, divorce, custody, money.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  So many stories do.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  It's like a repeat.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Well, money is such a big thing.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  It is.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  To so many people. Now, I'm still surprised that so many people decide to kill for money. I understand money's important.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  But to kill for it?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  But to make the decision that it's more important than somebody's life, that's a tough one.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Especially somebody you're supposed to have loved at one point or still love. And you have kids with them.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  So you are taking away, if you're the killer, your kid's mom.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  And you're changing the trajectory of their life and altering it.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Not in a good way.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  No, there's no way it's in a good way. The defense argued that there wasn't enough evidence to convict John beyond a reasonable doubt. The investigation was incomplete and John was blamed from the beginning. They also pointed out inconsistencies in witness statements throughout the case. And I'll be honest, you know, this is a, pretty much a circumstantial case. They can't 100% Gibbs, say that Ann is dead.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Now you can theorize it by the fact that nobody has seen or heard from her since 1991.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  In the prosecution's rebuttal, Deputy DA John Lewin called Joanne Rotts, one of the heroes in this case. Lewin said, "Does anybody think that if there was any way Joanne could have provided something to help her father, she would have provided it? She got up here and told you what happened." Lewin noted that Glenn's testimony differed from his siblings in that he was not going to say anything that would hurt his dad's case. Lewin also argued that the defense poisoned the minds of the children with the letters between Anne and her lover, Robert Russell. So it's interesting, right? You've got three children.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  One gets up on the stand and appears to be pretty accurate in saying what they know to have happened.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  The older, more mature one.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, now you have someone who doesn't want to hurt their dad's case.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  It's kind of hard for me to fault, you know, someone in that position. I mean, who wants to see either of their parents go to jail, really?

• 49:54Speaker 01

  No, I mean, it's your mom and your dad, you love them both, right? You don't want to hurt either one.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  And I'm sure there's a doubt, right? Or you may be sure that your dad would not have done it.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Well, if the defense attorneys are going to read you these letters that your mom wrote some other guy, that could put some doubt in your head. Why would she talk to that guy like this? Why would she say things like that? Why would she want to hurt dad?

• 50:23Speaker 00

  On August 22nd, 2007, John Rotts was convicted of first degree murder. Deputy DA Beth Silverman said outside court, "Per the Monterey Herald, given that she had filed for divorce, moved out of her husband's house four days before she disappeared, served him with papers three days before she disappeared, and told a number of her friends how afraid she was of him." Yeah, I think it was a fairly compelling case.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Well said.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it is. Now, defense attorney Philip Israel's argued that John was at a disadvantage because he was charged many years after the alleged crime. He said, "I think the fact is that after 16 years..." There were witnesses that were lost. There was an investigation that was almost impossible to do. Israel noted that the absence of the body was one of several important elements missing from the prosecution's case. He said, there was no crime scene. There was no murder weapon. There were no witnesses and no opportunity. Now, there were no witnesses to the actual murder.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  But I would argue with the fact that there was no opportunity. And there were witnesses, right? The neighbor saw him pull out right after Ann.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  Going the same way. The kid said, he said he was going to McDonald's right after Ann said she was going to McDonald's. So there were some witnesses, but I think he's saying, there's no body, so you don't know how she died. There were no witnesses to the crime. And that, that is all true.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you can say there's no murder weapon, like he said, but we don't know what the murder weapon would be because we don't have a body.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  But sometimes that's, those are things that a jury really wants to know. First of all, prove to us that she's dead. Now, after 16 years, I think some jury members can easily believe, hey, this person is not alive. But there's going to be people that have trouble with that.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  On September 14th, 2005, John was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. He said in court, all my life, I tried to be a good husband to Ann, my wife. She's still my wife. When Ann left, she left on her own. I did not kill my wife. I raised my children the best I could. I'm a good father. I love Ann and I love my children. Well, and honestly, what else is the guy gonna say?

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Even if he did do it, there's no reason for him to come out and say he did it.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  If Ann did run away, which is unlikely.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  I think it's unlikely.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Well, let's just say she did. She doesn't seem like the type of person that would allow her children's father to be arrested and

• 53:19Speaker 00

  Charged with murder.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Murder and sent to jail.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  That's a great point.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, she just didn't seem like that was her personality.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Well, that's a great point because you would have to believe that she was okay with that because I'm sure she would have been following the news. She was okay with this, um, this new boyfriend who she obviously had a great deal of affection for. She planned on moving in with him, never talking to him again.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  And she would be okay with never talking to her kids again. And this is kind of the problem I have is that if you run, if you want to run away, run away. But why does that have to preclude you from reaching out to your children and saying, "Hey, just want you to know, I had to get away. I can't do it anymore. I still love you, but I'm okay." And the same with her boyfriend or whatever.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  That's why it just doesn't make sense that she would just run away because she adored her kids. Everybody said so. And she would not want to put them through that she's possibly missing. And then turn around and have them have to go through the rest of their days knowing that their dad's locked up in prison.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I just don't believe that that's the case most of the time. You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, this is a case where the prosecution relied heavily on circumstantial evidence. But as they stated in their argument, John was the only one with the motive, means and opportunity to kill his wife. And I think they, they also had, you know, all these people who came forward to talk about how Anne expressed fear that her husband would kill her. And I'm sure all of that, right, went a long way with the jury. I, I do think this is a case, depending on the jury makeup.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  It's not a slam dunk that you're gonna get a conviction in this type of case.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  No, it's a, it's a tough way to go.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  I could easily see one juror holding out because they, they're just not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. They want that smoking gun type of evidence. And this case just doesn't have it.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  Although this case is technically solved, as of the airing of this episode, Anne's body still has never been found. I just think Gibbs, you know, if he did do it as he was convicted, right? Of, of having killed her, I do think it was about control. It was about money. He was mad she was leaving him. He was mad that she was moving on with this other man. I mean, we see it time and time again. Some of these people just cannot handle the fact that they're losing control. Someone doesn't want to be with them anymore. I get it. It's a bad situation.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  But it's not the end of the world.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:22Speaker 00

  And it's certainly no reason to kill your wife, to kill the mother of your children. And how you even make that decision, I will never understand. If we do this podcast for 20 more years.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  I'm never going to understand.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Just move on with your life.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. If this would happen today, we would know more, I think, because of all the cameras and stuff, right? Because, and, you know, through McDonald's and getting into McDonald's and back from McDonald's. And how did her car end up down at the airport? I think we would have maybe some visuals to go with that.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm, I'm right with you. I think the, the video evidence alone would probably go a long way.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Either she made it to McDonald's, he was right after her, followed her out, or she never made it to McDonald's at all.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  And then he comes back to McDonald's 45 minutes later, or he gets the McDonald's right then and there, but doesn't come back home for like 45 minutes to an hour, right? You can, you would have much more of a definitive timeline.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Right. And same with the, his stories about seeing her again on the 23rd and the 24th. Maybe that would be collaborated with, you know, some Ring cameras or.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  And maybe cell phone.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Cell phone.

• 57:44Speaker 00

  Evidence.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. Cell phone data, perhaps. But that's it for our episode on Ann Rods. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Let's hear it.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Julie calling from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. I'm just listening to your Jewel Guy Jr. Podcast. And I just wanted to say, while I was watching that trial live on TV, I know it's a weird thing to do, but for some reason, I enjoy watching live trials. Someone had mentioned the reason he didn't have time to clean everything up, finish everything he wanted to do, including get rid of that notebook, was because it took him longer than he had anticipated. And he thinks that somebody may have gotten a little suspicious

• 58:39Speaker 02

  and he ran out of time to clean up before people started to notice that his parents were missing. So that made a lot of sense to me, but it also makes sense that, yeah, he probably did get really caught up during all of the stabbing that he was doing. But yeah, I just found that interesting too, that, you know, you go to such lengths to leave a notebook for yourself of all the things you need to do. And then you don't clean up and leave all the evidence endpoints to yourself. So, yeah, I just wanted to call in and leave that message. I love you guys. Your banter is amazing. And yeah, keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking. Have a great day. Bye bye.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  All right. Thanks for the voicemail. We love you too.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Do.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Right. To detail out everything in this notebook, but then follow some of it and not all of it. Yeah, maybe it's because he didn't have time.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, felt rushed.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  Do you sometimes feel rushed?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  I do.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  During coitus?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Especially during quartus.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Quartus.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  Oh, I guess with that, we probably just should

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Probably should.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  Leave it. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike

• 59:54Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

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