John Davis

In December 2001, 43-year-old John Davis, a respected warehouse manager, devoted father, and community volunteer, was found murdered inside his van in a David's Bridal warehouse parking lot near Philadelphia. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of John Davis. What initially appeared to be a mysterious execution-style killing eventually uncovered a disturbing murder-for-hire plot driven by jealousy, manipulation, and control. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Every good true crime story has a twist. DraftKings Casino has a spin. Flex spins let you spin your way. Didn't see that coming. That's because flex spins are exclusive to DraftKings. New casino players pay $5 and get 1,000 total flex spins, including 100 lightning link spins. Unlock 50 spins a day at varying values for the first 20 days. You decide where the story goes next. Download the DraftKings Casino app. Sign up with code TCAD and spin your way. The crown is yours in partnership with DraftKings Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly. 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spins values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22nd, 2026 at 11:59 PM Eastern Time. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 509 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:30Speaker 01

  I'm doing good, man. 509.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  Crazy, isn't it?

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Isn't that like a pair of jeans?

• 1:35Speaker 00

  509, yeah, I think so.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Button fly?

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Is that the button fly? I don't do button fly.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  511.

• 1:41Speaker 00

  Seems like a lot of work.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  509, it would be a lot of work.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  As opposed to like one zip.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  I had them at one point when they first came out. I think there's like five buttons. It's a...

• 1:50Speaker 00

  It's too much.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  I'm with you.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  We're talking about John Davis. In December 2001, John Davis was shot execution style inside his car in the Philadelphia area. John had hundreds of dollars in cash with him, but none of it was stolen, leading investigators to dig into his personal life to search for a motive.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  It's a lot of money to have on hand.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  It is. And I mean, if you're, again, I know I've talked about it before, but if you're going to cross the line and murder someone, would you not take their money as well? You don't have a lot of scruples, obviously.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  I mean, regardless of why I would shoot somebody, I would still take the money to maybe throw off investigators.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  And that's, that's a good point because if you don't take the money, if you don't take watches or rings or anything like that, it's pretty hard for police to think that this is some type of robbery gone wrong.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Scenario. So what are they gonna lean into? Well, maybe it's someone that this person knew, someone who had a grudge against him or something like that. So yeah, to your point, it's like, if you're trying to throw police off, well, you're not really doing a good job if, if you're not going to take any valuables.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's not what I would do based on my past experience.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Which I know you have a lot of.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  John Davis was a night manager at a David's Bridal Warehouse in Lafayette Hill, an unincorporated community in White Marsh Township, which is a suburb of Philadelphia.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  You ever been to David's Bridal?

• 3:36Speaker 00

  I, I have.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Actually, actually just spent a bunch of money there a few months ago.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  I'm pretty, pretty sure that's where my daughter got her dress.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Think you get, you can get tuxes there too, or rent tuxes from them, I think, if I remember right.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  I don't know. I'm hoping to never have to do that again.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Well, you do have one other daughter.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  That is true.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  So maybe one more time and then never again.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, not more than one more time.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Oh, is that what you said?

• 4:01Speaker 00

  No, I said never, but now that you mention it, definitely not more than one more time.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Unless you want to renew your vows, because you know.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  Not wearing a tux for that.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  No, and didn't have to wear a tux for my oldest daughter's wedding because it was in Jamaica.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Still win full suit, though, for some reason.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  And you just love that suit, too.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. It was gangbusters until I started sweating in it. And then it's felt like what I assume a wet suit feels like that you use to scuba dive.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. John's coworker, Bobby Woodson, only knew him for a few months, but in that time, John took him under his wing and became a father figure. In his interview for the show Philly Homicide, Bobby said that John was a life-changing individual with an off-the-charts personality. He was great at team building and motivating people in the workplace. He was community-oriented and volunteered with YMCA's in the Philadelphia area.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Team building and motivating people. Man, that is you back in the day.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  You know, I wasn't gonna toot my own horn, but that was one of my strong suits.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  You're definitely somebody that can motivate people.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  And I am a life-changing individual, as I've told myself. I don't think I've ever been told that.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  You could, you could, got a track record there.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, possibly. Now, am I very community-oriented? I'd have to say no. I have to say no to that.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  That's just a hard no.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  It's a hard no. Unfortunately, I wish I did more volunteer work, but I don't.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  It requires you to go up those steps and at that door.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  If I could volunteer here in the basement in some form or fashion, I would look into that. But they normally want you to, to come to a certain place.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  They do.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  To volunteer. It was also said that John saw potential in people who didn't see it in themselves. And that's definitely me because I saw potential in you. You saw none in yourself when I first hired you. You barely see any in you now. And I actually somehow see less than I did back then.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I've probably proved you wrong. You know, where you thought you saw potential, you're like, you know what? Maybe I just never saw what I thought I saw.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Now, to be honest with you, you know, you've climbed the ranks. You've done a lot in your time at the place where we both worked. So you

• 6:38Speaker 01

  All right.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  You've done all right, man. John was also a family man and he loved his children. He had three children with his ex-wife Kimberly Williams. Although they were no longer together by 2001. John remained a devoted father. And we talk about divorce a lot. It just comes up in many, many cases. You know, marriages don't work out. But when you have kids, man, so important, right? To stay in their lives and be a mom or dad, but whichever one you are. So that's good to hear.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, important. Keep that connection.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  At the time of his death, he was in a relationship with a woman named Tamara Walls. John was killed on the evening of December 17, 2001. Shortly after he left the David's Bridal Warehouse. The last person to see him alive was his coworker Bobby Woodson. John and Bobby were working that night in the warehouse. Bobby noticed that at one point, John was at his desk on the phone. He also saw that John was texting someone and he didn't seem happy. He asked John what was going on. John said he got a call from a woman he dated in the past and she wanted to meet up that night. He was skeptical because he hadn't seen her in a while.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  He thought she wanted to meet up to try to rekindle things, but he seemed apprehensive. Apparently John even said to Bobby, I wonder if I'm being set up.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then you think, what does that mean? Like setup how like? They're gonna rob me or set up, uh, she's gonna say that maybe she's pregnant.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  That, you know, I'm a dad now.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  But, but here's the thing, if you've got those kinds of thoughts swirling around, maybe you just say, no, I'm good.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  I'm happy with, uh, with what I currently have.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, he's in a relationship with someone. Um, maybe you don't need to meet this person.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  John and Bobby had a bit of trouble with setting the alarm, but they got it sorted and walked out of the warehouse at nine oh five P M. They talked a little bit, you know, in the parking lot. At nine thirty P M, Bobby said goodbye to John and got in his car. As he was backing out, he saw John getting into his car. As he drove out of the parking lot, he saw John's car lights on and assumed everything was fine. And it seems like, you know, I could understand why that.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Seems like a fairly normal interaction, right? You leave together. You spend a little bit of time out by your car, talking, shooting the bull, and then, you know, you leave. His car lights are on, the car's on, so.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  You assume he's gonna be leaving shortly too.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, no problems. On the morning of December eighteenth, two thousand one, an employee opening up the warehouse saw John's van parked in the parking lot with the engine still running. He recognized that it belonged to John. He thought John might be asleep, so he knocked on the window, but received no response. He opened the door and saw blood everywhere. John had been shot in the back of the head at close range. It appeared someone had been waiting in the back of his van to shoot him. That's a scary thought.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  It is a scary, you know, thought and thinking that somebody's. Been waiting there all night to the end of your shift to come out there to execute you.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Well, in, in the van idea, right? Depending on what type of van it is, there might be some places for people to hide.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  It's not like you got a four door car and you can pretty much see what's going on in the backseat as you walk up.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, there's times and, you know, that when I went to my vehicle, I would look, you know, see who's back there. Hopefully nobody, you know?

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Look like this?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you just, you know, I've

• 10:41Speaker 00

  So are you already?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Passing the car.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Okay. Cause it looks like you're already in the car and you're just looking backwards.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  I just looked down like.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  I was gonna say, by that time it's too late.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  You gotta look before.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  You get in the car. Back there. Uh, I haven't had to do that in a long time though, you know, so I'm not worried about it. So I don't even look at it. Now I just get in the car.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Oh, well, now you just told everybody you don't look. So if, if they're want to come after you, that's the way to get you, I guess.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  I got cameras in my car now.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  But I mean, obviously for this person who worked with John, knew John, or even if you didn't know the person, this is a traumatic scene, right? You're opening up a door and finding someone shot to death, blood everywhere. Now robbery didn't appear to be the motive because John's vehicle hadn't been stolen for one, and his wallet was there with about $700 of cash inside.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  It's a nice, uh, healthy chunk of cash.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Whoever shot John was meticulous in making sure they left no fingerprints behind. Now, is that because they wiped the van down or more than likely because they used gloves?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they probably had gloves on.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  That's, that would be my thought. John's coworkers were in complete shock when they learned he'd been murdered, especially Bobby Wilson, who had just seen him. Bobby's girlfriend verified he was at home the entire night. So yeah, obviously Bobby being the last one to known to have seen John.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  He is going to be questioned. He's going to be a person of interest.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  But it sounds like he's got a, a pretty good alibi.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  At least as good a one as you can have where one person is vouching for where you were.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like multiple people are saying he was there.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  No, and it's not like he's caught on camera at a store. You know, it's not like he clocked in at work, you know, there are some varying degrees of alibis.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  And, you know, for me, the worst is, well, I was at home, but I live alone. So there's really nobody who can verify it. And then, you know, a step above that is someone, your mom, your girlfriend, whoever, verifying that you were with them all night long.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  And you've used that one many times.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  I have. Um, I've used you as an alibi. Many times.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  I've always, uh, took up for you, even though I wasn't with you.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  Both ways, it's happened both ways, let's not kid ourselves. But, you know, you would want to think that people would tell the truth, wouldn't lie. But as we know, moms lie for sons, wives lie for husbands, husbands lie for wives. It, it does happen. Other coworkers agreed that John was a terrific guy with no enemies. When the police informed John's girlfriend, Tamara, of his death, she was devastated. Tamara said she was at a friend's house on the night of December 17th. She spoke to John on the phone at nine 40 PM as verified by call records.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  And you would think, okay, that's not an hour ironclad alibi. But it's not horrible if it's thought that he was killed right around this time.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Because they're talking on the phone. My assumption is you would think they'd be able to figure out where that call was on, on the other.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  End.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Where it generated from.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  And, you know, if they're talking on cell phones, unless she's right next to him or somewhere on the street about Ray to strike, probably not her.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  I think if you're the police, you're probably thinking that. Tamara told investigators that the beginning of their relationship wasn't ideal. They met when John was still married to his ex-wife, Kimberly Williams. John left Kimberly to be with Tamara and things got a little messy. According to Tamara, the divorce was contentious and Tamara suggested that perhaps Kimberly wanted to hurt John because they had recently decided they wanted to get married.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  I mean, a scorned woman?

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Can be dangerous.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Can be dangerous, you know, so when you tell your partner you're leaving them for somebody else, not going to go over great.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  No, then there's the divorce and then when they find out you're going to marry this woman that you left them for, okay, maybe a motive there.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  When the police interviewed Kimberly, they were surprised to hear a completely different story. She said the divorce was amicable. There was no resentment between them and John was an excellent father to their kids. This wasn't what detectives expected to hear from a woman who supposedly hated John.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Well, you know, maybe she's not being truthful or maybe John told Tamara what he thought he wanted to tell her, like, oh yeah, we're not good. She was nasty to me and.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Sometimes people do that, right? They try to make that person sound worse than they really are to make them sound better.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Sure. Could it also be that Kimberly, after finding out that he was dead, didn't want to make him look bad, maybe? I mean, there's, there's a number of possibilities. Kimberly said she was at work on the night of the 17th and her kids were with her mother. She went straight home after work. Police verified Kimberly's phone records and by interviewing her mother. So through all of that, they were able to, you know, verify her alibi. And it's not bad if we're rating alibis as we've been doing.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, so it sounds like so far the people closest to him are in the clear as far as them individually doing something.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Or at the very least, they have someone vouching for them. Now, could the alibis be a lie? Yeah, but in the case of Kimberly, obviously, people would have known whether she was at work or not.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Her phone records and then her mother vouching for her. It's, it's not just one person. There, there's a little bit more to it than, than some of the other ones we've talked about. John's autopsy determined he was shot with a 38 caliber revolver. The examiner found two more bullets in John's torso. They were fired from the same gun, but the shots came from different angles. Investigators wondered if one person fired from three directions or if the same gun was fired by a second shooter.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  That's strange.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  It is. So either one person moved around while firing shots

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  or fired some of the shots and then handed the gun over to someone else in a different position.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  I think I would lean more to the one person maybe moving around. But yeah, it could have been a second shooter in there that they tossed the gun to and say, you go ahead and shoot a few times now.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, have there been cases where to share blame? People have both or maybe even more fired shots into someone.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  As kind of a, I don't know what you want to call it, but.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  It's like a unity of killing.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Like you can't, you can't go to the police on me because you did the same thing.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  We all three or both of us or however many people it, it was.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  And I feel like we've done a case like that in the past.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  I think we have. I'm, I'm not, I'm blanking on which one it was.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  On December 19th, police did follow up interviews with John's coworkers. That was when Bobby Woodson recalled John telling him about a woman who wanted to meet up with him and his nervousness about this meeting. Police found a voicemail on John's work phone from a woman named Vernell, who said she planned to meet him at 9:30 PM. Vernell Jones was a former employee at the David's bridal warehouse. One employee recalled a specific incident where Vernell left work. And an hour and a half later, a man showed up in Vernell's car and asked to speak to John. He warned John to stay away from her and then he left.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Well, don't want to mess around with somebody else's woman.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  No, and you know, if you're the police, now you have to check this out.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Sure you do.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  Right? She wants to meet him around 9:30. This would be right around the time that Bobby left.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  And if they believe that he was killed not long after that, or was ambushed, not long after Bobby left, that would be about the right timeframe.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  It would be.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Now you have this thought that, well, maybe there's a, a man who was in her life, who was telling John to stay away from her. All right, got to talk about motives, right? It's all about motive in some of these cases. Police traced the phone number to an insurance company in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Detectives found the woman who the number belonged to. She said it was her extension, but she didn't make the call. Vernell Jones did. Vernell made several phone calls on December 17th. She overheard Vernell telling someone she would meet them between 9:30 and 10:00. She asked them not to tell anyone she was coming.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  She also saw Vernell make a phone call to her boyfriend about meeting with a man. And for me, it's the, don't tell anyone I'm coming part that would make me suspicious. And maybe that's part of what was making him so apprehensive.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense. But I would definitely be nervous if someone said, hey, I need to meet you at 9:30, but don't tell anybody that I'm coming.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. And let's meet, let's meet in a very secluded spot.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Then you also have this person overhearing her call um her boyfriend and talk about the fact that she's meeting up with a man. Well, either she's not trying to keep it a secret and doesn't care if her boyfriend knows about it, or there's a little more to it and he's a, he's a part of whatever's going to happen at this meetup.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  I mean, knowing what happened, you kind of think that maybe

• 22:00Speaker 01

  there's something shady going on there.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  That he dies.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  I think if you're the investigators, you're right now pretty intrigued.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely suspicion.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  By these phone calls, the, the idea that this meetup was set to occur, the idea that she's communicating with her boyfriend and wondering if this boyfriend is the man who threatened, you know, John at his workplace.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Vernell was quickly becoming the prime suspect. So police started digging into her background. She was a singer who dreamed of making a bit. Vernell and her sisters formed a girl group called Surprise, in which Vernell was the lead singer.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  You gonna see it the uh perform tonight?

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Surprise. No, you can tell me. Go ahead and, you know.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  I'm not going, so.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  You don't need to leave it a surprise. Just tell me.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  It's like a bad Abbott and Costello routine. As she booked more gigs, she started missing work. And, you know, this band was kind of popular locally, right? It took them a while to get gigs. And so for that reason, Vernell had to get a nine to five job. That job was at David's bridal. But when you get more gigs and you start missing work, well, eventually you're going to get fired. And she did get fired from David's bridal. Vernell eventually started dating her manager, Kenneth Burnham. And Kenneth also had an interesting background.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  He attended a performing arts high school. A few choir students were chosen to be part of a group called Unique Attractions. They went to churches around the city, making a name for themselves. They even sang for music executive Michael Bibbitts, who changed their name to Boys to Men.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Boys to Men.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  How about that?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  A B C B B D.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  That's good.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  When Kenneth was supposed to sign his contract, he found out his girlfriend was pregnant and decided to leave the music industry for a more stable career. That was a horrible decision. I, I hate to, you know, bag on people, but that's like the guy who sold his, uh, his Walmart stock worth about, uh, $3,000 because he needed a new, um, riding lawnmower.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:33Speaker 00

  And today that stock would be like worth tens to 20 million dollars. I forget. They have a, a thing at the headquarters of Walmart.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  About the world's most expensive tractor.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be rough.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  It would be.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  But obviously, you know, Boys to Men was a, it was a, a big group.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  It was, it was a big group.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Back in our day, especially.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Had, uh, several hit songs.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  They did. I don't know if they're still together or they still perform sometimes.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Men to men.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  Men to older men.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Uh, I cracked myself up.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  Men to elderly men.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Dads to grandpas.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, something.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  But they have to be our age at the very least, right?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  I, I seen, uh, David Lee Roth out there still performing and, uh, Rod Stewart and, uh, I think I saw a video of Frankie Valli. It looked like a, like he was.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  A ghost? Were you by, he said ghost?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it didn't even look believable. He, like.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Well, you know Rod Stewart was performing at Caesar's Palace when we were there.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  I heard.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  For Crime Con.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  And he had to cancel his show due to some health issue.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I just saw something the other day where he was performing and he got, uh, had to get stopped and go on oxygen for a little bit.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Man's 145 years old.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Man.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  No, I'm just kidding, but, uh, I mean, he's, he's up there.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  I mean, sometimes you just gotta retire.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  Well, and that's the thing, right? With me, it's not like he doesn't have more money than he can ever spend.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  It should be set pretty well.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  But I think for a lot of people, you know, the idea of walking away from the spotlight is probably a little tough when you've had it.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  And been in it for 60 years. I mean, how long's he been performing?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Probably 80, but yeah. I mean, sure. Yeah. Probably feeds you, you know, feeds the soul.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  The ego and, and all of that.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I saw another thing where Tiffany from the eighties. You know, I can't remember the song.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  All Tiffany?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Still out there performing, small crowds, but you know, whatever.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  How about that?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Kenneth's brother Lamar said he wanted to go to college and get a degree so he would always have something to fall back on.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  It's not, not bad thinking.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's really hard to fault somebody for that. Now in hindsight, right? You can say, if you had a chance to be part of Boys to Men, well, that was a big mistake.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  But it's really hard to say, oh, that's a bad idea to go back and get your education because for most of us, that's what'll carry us on through to retirement.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  I mean, it's kind of like when the athletes go to college, you say, you should finish and get your degree before you move to the next level. I know a lot of them don't, you know, especially in basketball, cause it's so lucrative for them to move up.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. They're going to make millions and millions of dollars.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  For how long though? Or they?

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Doesn't matter. Like money you can never get rid. Now they do, some of them go through it like crazy and end up bankrupt, which I'll never understand. But, uh, but a lot of them do leave early, but they go back and get their degree.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Get their degree anyway.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Like during the off season.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  I've seen that. Kenneth regretted his decision to leave Unique Attraction, but he decided he would get back into the music industry as a manager. He saw potential in Vernell Jones and thought he could help her become famous. Kenneth was still married when he started managing Vernell, but he took care of Vernell financially. His marriage eventually ended and he and Vernell dated for five years.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  I'm guessing your marriage probably would end if you're taking care of another woman financially?

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, he might have said, you know, this is an investment. I think she's going to be a big star. But, you know, when you work with someone closely, things can happen.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  When detectives asked Vernell to come in for an interview, she brought Kenneth with her. She explained that she met John at the warehouse and they dated on and off casually. She asked him to get a drink with her on December 17th because she was trying to make Kenneth jealous, but she backed out at the last minute.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Sometimes guys do get jealous when they see the woman having a drink with somebody else.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  And let's be honest, sometimes women do things to make us jealous on purpose because we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing. We're not paying enough attention, whatever it is.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Or find somebody else that will give them that attention for a little bit.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Okay, you went down a different path there, but a little dark. I got you. She said she was with Kenneth the entire night, except for about a half hour period. During that time, she stayed at home. Detectives took note of Kenneth's demeanor during the interview. He acted sympathetic towards Vernell, but really, he seemed interested in knowing the details of the crime.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Which is, I guess from a, a true crime fan.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  That wouldn't be all that odd.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Well, they gave me the details. I want to hear them.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  But to investigators, that might seem strange.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  If they're looking at you and all you seem to want to know about is the details, especially if you want to know what they know, because that's a red flag, right? We all know that.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  I kind of wonder, you know, the last, I'd say 10 years, maybe 10 to 15 years, maybe a little bit longer, you would know better than I, now that true crime is as popular as it is. I wonder how that has either hindered or helped investigators now when they talk to people of interest, witnesses, it's like, are people jumping in with their own theories?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, on the one hand, I would think with the plethora of true crime content.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  And let's not forget the shows, the NCISs and the, you know, all of those types of forensic shows and CSIs, I would think perpetrators would be a lot more knowledgeable today about what to do and what not to do. But, you know, getting back to your point, I also think that there is so much interest in true crime cases that, yeah, I think people are trying to get details and they didn't have anything to do with the crime. They're just fascinated.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  And they just want to know where maybe as in, you know, the 60s or 70s, if you did that, man, they were, they really thought you.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  They were locked in.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  You were locked in. You did something. So they're, they're kind of gauging his demeanor. Vernell was released due to a lack of evidence, but she did remain on police radar. Police talked to Vernell's family to see if she had a history of violence with her romantic partners. They provided a list of her ex-boyfriends, one of whom was Ronald Humphrey, a Philadelphia firefighter. Police interviewed Ronald on December 21st, 2001. Investigators asked if Vernell was ever violent with him. To their surprise, Ronald responded, "That bitch shot me." And I, I know it's not funny.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  But it does make you laugh because it's such a strange answer.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  I mean, he could have said, yeah, she was a violent person. She actually shot me once.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  But he just came out and said, so he and Vrenell secretly dated between July and August 2001. Kenneth Burno found out and confronted Ronald at the fire station in front of his coworkers. He had no contact with her until October 5th, 2001. She called him several times out of the blue and was quote begging him to hook up.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Baby, I need it. Let's get together.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Well, here's the other thing. There's a lot of people meeting in secret here.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  There is.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  And all of these relationships.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Very strange.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  It is. So he agreed to meet her. That evening, they went to a bar, then to a secluded area of Fairmont Park. He said Vrenell performed oral sex on him. She then said she had to go to the bathroom. She left his vehicle and returned a couple of minutes later. She opened the door and shot him with a revolver. The bullet hit his upper right arm.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Well, that's a different type of fantasy.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  I, I think that's no one's fantasy. The first part is, don't get me wrong, but the second part is not.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  This is a strange role play.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  People are into some strange things, but getting shot after, uh, fellatio, I don't believe is, is one of them.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Did you say fellatio?

• 34:04Speaker 00

  I did. Drop that bomb on you.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  So the Philadelphia PD investigated the shooting. At the time, Ronald didn't tell the police that Vrenell shot him because he was in a relationship with someone else. And that's the problem with sneaking around with people.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  You can't be completely honest because that person's going to find out and then that person's going to want to shoot you. You've already been shot.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Just stay with the person you're with. You know, is it that hard just to be with the person?

• 34:37Speaker 00

  It is for some people, you know, some people have a hard time with that. Detectives noticed that details of his story were similar to the circumstances surrounding John Davis's murder. Police also knew John was shot with a revolver. And we said it right, specifically a 38 caliber. Investigators recovered the bullet from Ronald's truck and compared it to the bullets found in John's body. They came from the same 38 caliber revolver.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  We have the gun being used.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  The gun. Yeah. And I think that's what's important. It's not just the fact that both shootings involved a 38 caliber revolver. They were the same 38 caliber revolver. On December 23rd, 2001, Vrenell was charged with third degree murder and conspiracy for the death of John Davis. And, you know, this ballistic match is fascinating, man. I'm telling you, the forensics behind, we talked about it in our TCAT, or we will talk about it in the one coming out on Sunday. We've already recorded it. But, you know, the forensics played a big part in that one as well. And not TCAT, our Patreon.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Patreon episode.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  I get confused. We're recording so many different episodes, but forensics played a big part in that one as well. And I still can't help but think, man, if I had to do it over and I could go back and tell my 19 year old self, first I'd be like, hey, there's going to be this thing called podcasts. Get in on that on the ground floor even earlier than we did. But short of that, I'd say you should probably look at going into some type of forensics because I think you'd really like that.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  I also think you'd go back and tell your 19 year old self, keep that Walmart stock. Don't buy that tractor.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Also buy Amazon, Google.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  It'd be like Biff Tan, whatever his name, Biff and Back to the Future.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  So she's charged with third degree murder. Montgomery County Deputy DA Risa Furman described Vernell as a modern day black widow. And I'm telling you, if you're a woman, you do not want to be called a black widow.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  It's not a good thing.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  No, you are a stone cold murderer.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  That's what black widows are. On January 10th, 2002, she was charged with aggravated assault for the shooting of Ronald Humphrey. When Vernell was arrested, Kenneth called various lawyers to see if they would take her case. She called, or he called and visited Vernell often and wrote her letters. At first detectives thought he was a loving boyfriend, but they started to suspect that he was coaching her on what she should tell the police. They believed Kenneth was involved in some way, but they needed evidence to prove it.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Well, if you go back to, you know, what they thought about the shooting, they thought either somebody shot him in the back of the head and then moved the gun around and shot, or there was a second shooter that maybe the gun got tossed to and said, you know, now you, you shoot them here and there.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Maybe this is where they're headed.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Which so seems strange. I mean, why not just have two different guns, but.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Well, I agree with you. Why, why, why just take one and toss it around?

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Pass it around to someone else to do shooting. Unless, like I said, it was some kind of, it was more symbolic.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  As in like, we're in this together. I'm doing it, but you gotta do it too type of deal.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Both put her hand on the trigger together, but we can't with this gun. So we had to pass it back.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Something, something to that effect. Eventually Kenneth's visits and calls dropped off. Vrenell's family informed her that he was cheating on her. Doesn't surprise me because apparently no one in this story can be faithful to one person.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Everybody is cheating on someone with at least one person, sometimes multiple people. So why is that a bad idea though, Gibbs?

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Cheating?

• 38:58Speaker 00

  In this specific instance, if you're Kenneth.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, for Kenneth, it's not, look, you're in a love triangle or I don't even love triangle. What would you call that? It's a hot mess.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  The whole thing is a hot mess, but if he had anything to do with it.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  It could be used against him. I mean.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  She's not going to have the slightest pause now, right? You start cheating on this woman, you stop calling her and you stop visiting her and she's got something on you.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  She's coming after you.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  She's coming after you because you done, you know, ticked her off. So.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Think you'd want to like keep close to her and beg, baby.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  I know you're, it doesn't look good for you. I'm here for you though.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Not real smart.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Now, we don't know that he had anything to do with it, but police think he did. And then Vrenell finally did agree to talk to the police on August 21st, 2002. She decided to take a plea bargain. She pleaded guilty to aggravated assault for the Ronald Humphrey shooting and received a 10 year sentence. As part of her plea deal, she gave the detailed statement. In her statement, Vrenell described how Kenneth was a jealous, controlling boyfriend. He controlled who she could talk to, where she could go, and how much she could spend.

• 40:25Speaker 00

  She had to call him several times a day to check in. She wasn't allowed to have a pager. And let's remember, this is like early 2000s. So pagers were a big deal. She could only use a phone that Kenneth paid for so that he could keep track of all of her calls. She had to give him every check she made. He was also physically and sexually abusive. He punched her in the face and forced her to get a tattoo that said 100% K's bitch.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Wow, man.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  This rough.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  That is rough.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  I mean, you are, you're making money and every time you get paid, you're essentially handing the entire check to him.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  And he's forcing you to get a tattoo.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Well, you have a similar tattoo that says, you know.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Gibby's B. 100%.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  100% I was gonna say your wife's name.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, that would be more accurate. But I don't know, it just, um, and then the idea that he's physically sexually abusive doesn't shock me in the slightest.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  With what we've been talking about here.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  And maybe that's why she's seeking a little side romances or can't even call them romances, but side action.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  And possibly.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Things reached a breaking point in the summer of 2001 when Kenneth accused her of sleeping with his cousin. He worried what his friends and family would think if they knew he stayed with a woman who had been with another family member.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Now we got the family involved.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  And I would say for most people, that is probably a deal breaker.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I would think so.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  I mean, cheating of any kind is, is usually a deal breaker for many, but having sex with my cousin.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  You know, we definitely got to draw the line somewhere. Come on now.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Really ruins the family reunion, the holiday.

• 42:23Speaker 00

  Thanksgivings are awkward.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, just family get togethers. Yeah, yeah.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  So here's what Kenneth did. He required Vernell to write down all the men. He thought she had a sexual relationship with. One of the men on the list was the cousin he accused her of having sex with. The second was another cousin who was on the list simply because he knew about Kenneth's suspicion. Okay, so I'm not sure. Maybe she didn't actually have sex with this cousin, but she he was on the list anyway. The third was a man named Larry Tucker, a former coworker of Vernell's. He never had a sexual relationship with her, but Kenneth thought she did.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  And this is what was so striking to me. He didn't ask Vernell for her to write a list.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Of the people she had been with.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  He wrote a list of the people he thought she had been with.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Who I think you've been with.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  Which is so strange.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Strange.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  And the list has two of his cousins on there.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  I always saw you look at, what's his name? I know you had to be with him.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  But I do think he's got some very serious control issues at the very least. I think more disturbingly, very abusive.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Both physically and, you know, emotionally.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  It'd be difficult to be with somebody like that.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Very difficult.

• 44:00Speaker 00

  The other names on the list were Ronald Humphries and John Davis.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  There I go. There you go.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  It's kind of telling.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  No, it is. When those people, uh, one of them ended up dead, the other, uh, I think was, there was an attempt on his life.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  At the very least, Kenneth gave Vernell an ultimatum. Kill these men or their relationship was over. He used the list to create a written contract where the two of them would kill the five individuals.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  See, for me, when someone says either kill these men or this is over, I'd be like, ah, okay, finally, it's over. Bye bye.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Has that happened to you before?

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Oh, you said.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  No, I said if that was me.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't, I think you left out the word if.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Which made it sound as though.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  You have experienced this before, which I thought was very strange.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm just saying, if I was in that situation, I'd be like, then bye bye. You know, I've been wanting to get out of this thing, but.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  But here's the thing, I don't think she did.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  And I can only, you know, kind of theorize why that might be, you know, was his control so strong over her?

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  That, you know, he essentially was running every facet of her life.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  He was.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  If you think about it.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Total control.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  And, or maybe she was scared that if the relationship ended, he might do something really bad to her.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:43Speaker 00

  Because now she's no longer, you know, a part of his life. He doesn't need her. You know, you get where I'm going there.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the other thing is too, maybe she really believed that he was gonna help her career.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Well, maybe.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  You know, I just gotta hang on with this guy for a little bit more. I think he was, he's gonna make it happen.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Maybe. But I do think Emvernell has said this. She was afraid of him.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:10Speaker 00

  And that's one of the reasons she went along with what he told her to do. When Kenneth talked about anyone on the list, he used the phrase, dead men tell no tales.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Our, our matey.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  You cracked me up.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Uh, exactly what a pirate would say.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Ronald Humphrey was chosen as the first victim. Vrenell called him and arranged the meeting. Kenneth drove her to the scene and waited nearby in his car. He was angry and beat her after the failed murder attempt. He yelled at her for going to a bar beforehand, saying, if you didn't have a drink, maybe things would have gone the way we planned.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Kenneth was angry because it didn't go the way he wanted it to. He didn't really have total control over the situation, but um, you know, we, we know that he wanted these individuals, you know, killed because they were messing with his woman.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  Were they messing with her at the time? Or did he just believe or know that she had been with him at some point in the past? It's almost like some of these guys, he once killed retroactively.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  You're right. I mean, it's, it's almost like a severe jealousy thing like.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Jealousy of the past, though. That's, that's kind of striking to me. But I mean, no doubt you can tell that Kenneth is a really controlling abusive person. Now, I'm, I'm not giving any slack to, to Vrenell here. She did go through some stuff. I have no doubt of that.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  But she also killed a number of people. So.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  It's, it's gonna be hard to give her too much slack, but.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Just own it.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  I do think in a way she was controlled, intimidated, abused by this guy, Kenneth. So I do have to say that. Kenneth said he would finish the job after they dealt with John Davis. This time, he said he would fire the fatal shot. On the night of John's murder, Vrenell and Kenneth waited for John in the parking lot of the Davis bridal warehouse. Kenneth got in the back of John's van and she waited in the shadows. When John and Vrenell got into the van, Kenneth shot John in the head. He then forced Vrenell to shoot John twice with the same gun.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  There we go. We kind of talked about that scenario.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Both of them firing the gun. And I think, you know, as we talked about, I think the reason, even though they didn't come out and say it, it was kind of symbolic in a way as far as we're both in this, we're both, you know, firing shots, we're both killing this person. But I want to talk about, you know, she's hiding in the shadows. She's going to meet with John and she gets in and Kenneth fires a shot from the back of the van. Do you have any idea how loud that would be? A 38 caliber fired in a small van?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Very loud.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  I've, it would definitely not be good on the senses and the eardrums and all of that. But then to hand the gun to her and say, hey, you know, here you go. And she's, she shoots him twice. After the murder, Kenneth and Vernell went to her apartment and had sex because that's what you do after you commit a heinous murder.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  They're amped up, I guess.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  The next morning, he kissed her and said, one down, four to go.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  I'm telling you, man, this is a wild, wild tale.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  But I think about, um, before John left the warehouse, you know, he had reservations about meeting up with whoever he was on the phone with. And now we know why. Most likely it was because he knew that something good wasn't going to come from this.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Well, and that's why, you know, you're kind of almost asking the question, well, why did he go through with it? If he was so apprehensive, but you know, there's no way for us to know. On December 17th, 2002, Kenneth Burnow was arrested and charged with homicide, criminal conspiracy, possessing an instrument of crime and unsworn falsification to authorities. The criminal complaint noted that Kenneth and was very jealous.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  Controlling and manipulative. And I don't, there's really no way to.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Dispute that, I don't think, with everything that we know about him. His sense of shame over staying with a woman who was involved with other men motivated him to compile a hit list of men he believed Vernell had relationships with. Now, I know there are jealous people, both men and women. This is taking jealousy to a whole nother level that I don't know I've ever even heard of.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  It really is. I mean, to say, tell me who you had relationship, sexual relationship with five years before you met me and be jealous over that. It's like, it was before I met you.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Or

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Did you be jealous of that?

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Don't tell me, I'll just write down the names of who I think you've been with.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  You bet, yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  Including two of my cousins.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  It's just, I mean, I know it's not a laughing matter because we're talking about murder.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  But some of this stuff is so off the wall.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  It is.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  That you almost can't help but laugh. If detectives had not linked Vernell to the two incidents from 2001, the killing would have continued until the list was finished.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's true, right? I mean, they had that list and he was bound and determined to make sure that it got completed.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, and the thing is Kenneth's arrest was largely based on Vernell's statements.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  She confirmed that in both cases, he was at or near the crime scene and he provided the weapon. And let's not forget, the only reason she really came forward was because he stopped calling her. He stopped visiting her and he started seeing someone else.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Detectives didn't have the actual hit list. It was described as a piece of paper upon which Vernell wrote a contract agreeing to kill five people. It contained only the first initial of the five intended victims.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  DA Bruce Castor also said Kenneth was abusive towards Vrenell and played on her insecurity and love for him to get her to commit crimes. Castor added, clearly she's criminally culpable here, but she's not the driving force behind this contract to commit the series of murders.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I mean, that's pretty correct.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's the way I thought of it too. Again, she went through some, some pretty horrible stuff, I believe.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  At the hands of this Kenneth guy. Um, and if not for him, maybe she never kills anybody.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Probably not.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  But she did sign a contract saying she would kill five people. The following day, December 18th, Vrenell accepted a plea deal for third degree murder and conspiracy. She received a reduced sentence of 17 to 35 years. And, you know, I don't hate it. I'm not jumping up and down mad about that. They had to have her cooperation.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  To get Kenneth. So you're gonna have to make a deal. That's just how it works. She is gonna spend a large chunk of her life in prison.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like you said, I'm not hating it. It's not a, not the best outcome, but it's not the worst either. It's, it's split right down the middle.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  We've seen way worse.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  We have.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  Right? Two years, um, time served. We've seen all kinds of strange things for murder. On April 26, 2004, jurors found Kenneth Burno guilty of first degree murder, unsworn falsification to authorities and criminal conspiracy. He was acquitted of possessing an instrument of crime.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Which I thought was strange.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  It is.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  How could you do all the other stuff if you didn't have the gun?

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  But hey.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  But they got him on the other things anyway.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, his defense argued there was no scientific evidence to link him to John Davis's death. The murder weapon was never found and the fingerprints at the scene had been wiped down. Additionally, the hit list was never recovered. With the help of Vernell's testimony, the jury sided with the prosecution. Now, maybe it was they could get Vernell because she was involved in Ronald's.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:17Speaker 00

  Case.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  The same gun was used, thereby making her involved.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Maybe they just couldn't tie the gun to him. But if they thought he was part of the murder, I don't know, it just still seems strange to me.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  How could he not have possessed the gun yet use the gun that they know was used by both of them to?

• 55:43Speaker 01

  To kill John.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Kill John Davis. On September 28, 2004, Kenneth Burnow was sentenced to life in prison.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Or he needs to be.

• 55:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I agree. You know, Vernell Jones was paroled in 2018 and has not spoken publicly. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, although Vernell Jones was involved in the murder of John Davis and the shooting of Ronald Humphrey, the killing was definitely orchestrated by Kenneth, her abusive, controlling boyfriend. Had she not been arrested, though, it's very possible that there would have been five victims.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  And, you know, I said it earlier, I'm not giving her a pass at all.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  I think she got a fair sentence. Sounds like she's already done her time and it sounds like she did the minimum 17 years.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  She got out in 2018. I think she was arrested in 2001, so she did about 17 years.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  I mean, it could have went worse for her. I mean, if she would have. Actually been successful on the night with Humphreys. Right? Instead of getting him an arm, maybe it would have got him in the chest and you know, it'd be a different story.

• 57:02Speaker 00

  It would be. I also think, you know, the prosecutors, they needed to, you know, cut a deal to get her testimony against Kenneth. And they probably also took into account to some degree, maybe it was just in the sentencing phase, you know, the judge or whatever, the extent of the control that he had over her in orchestrating this thing and, and kind of pushing her to do it. Now, she still has to take responsibility for her actions.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yep, she does.

• 57:37Speaker 00

  I, I fully believe that, but I also believe that without Kenneth, I, I don't think she does the killing.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  I don't believe so either.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  I don't think she shoots anybody. Or there's no guarantee that she does.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  No, but I think it was definitely driven by, by his action.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's just a wild case because I get, people are jealous. I'm not a jealous person at all. I've never have been, but I know that a lot of people are. What I don't understand, it'd be one thing if, you know, your partner is currently talking to someone or you find out that they're currently cheating with someone, but to go back in time and be jealous about people who she or he may have been with before you guys, that really seems like jealousy to the extreme.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you definitely are not a jealous person.

• 58:36Speaker 00

  No, not at all.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  I mean, your wife has had a pool boy for, how long? You guys don't even have a pool.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  I know.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  But you're like.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  I gotta pay that guy every month. Like, what are you even doing around here?

• 58:50Speaker 00

  No, but it, I don't know. Again, you know, to try to get into the minds of some of these people, it's so hard because we just don't think the way that they do.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  You know, even if I was a jealous person, even if I found out that my wife was cheating on me.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  I wouldn't hatch a plan to kill the guy.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  No, you'd have me do it.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  Well, that would still be me hatching, hatching the plan.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  You pass me a note, say, hatch his plan.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Hatch his plan. I, I just, I just wouldn't do it. I would just.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Say goodbye.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  Say, hey, you know, we go our separate ways or whatever, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  No, not for something like that. Why?

• 59:36Speaker 00

  Am I going to be happy about it? Obviously not. But do I need to kill someone? No.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  There's just no reason to. I certainly don't need to kill people that, you know, a partner was with five years ago or 10 years ago, or however long it's been. That, that's the part that really blows me away about this case. And I really think it gives you some insight into this guy's mindset. He was just locked in on jealousy and control and abuse and.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  And let me tell you, right now, you have a couple cousins out there that are saying, oh, man, I'm glad you feel that way. You know?

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Probably also have a couple cousins.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  You've got some cousins over on your side of the family, some cousins on other people's sides of the family. Oh, but that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  And Gabby.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.