Arlis Perry

In October 1974, 19-year-old newlywed Arlis Kay Perry was brutally murdered inside Stanford Memorial Church on the campus of Stanford University. For more than four decades, investigators pursued leads, explored bizarre theories, and repeatedly returned to one man who had been present that night. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Arlis Perry. Advances in DNA technology finally revealed the identity of the killer, bringing long-awaited answers to Arlis's family, though justice itself would never be served. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:20Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 507 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you?

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Doing great. You and I took a week off. We got rested, but I went to Jamaica. My daughter got married. You went to Greece.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  I did. Got engaged.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  And got engaged.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  So we had good times, but also, you know, got a little rest and relaxation in. And now we're ready to go for the rest of the year.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  We're talking about Arlis Perry. Arlis K. Perry was a 19-year-old newlywed who was murdered inside Stanford Memorial Church on the university's campus.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Her murder was unsolved for more than 40 years before police named a perpetrator.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  That's a long time.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  It is. But you know, you and I have a channel where we do unsolved cases.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  We do.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  And at the end, we normally talk about, you know, what is the likelihood that a case will be solved? And there are a lot of factors to that. Oftentimes, if there's no DNA, there's nothing, there's no evidence to speak of. Well, we're a little bit less optimistic.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  True.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  About a case being solved. But you know, you cannot say that any case is unsolvable. Cause we've seen a lot of them be solved that frankly, many people thought never would be.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  That's very true.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Arliss was born on February 22nd, 1955. She was the youngest of three children. She grew up in Bismarck, North Dakota, where she met her future husband, Bruce Perry. The two were high school sweethearts.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  All the old high school sweethearts. Got a couple of those that you just got married.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Yep. Uh, my daughter and her husband, they started dating, I think it was 10 years ago. They were freshmen, sophomores in high school.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:25Speaker 00

  It's just, it's amazing because you've watched her grow up.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  And you've been around him for 10 years now, and he's been part of the family for a long time. Bruce told the Peninsula Times Tribune that Arliss was a quiet, shy person who liked to sew, cook and read. They were both religious and liked to take walks and go to church to pray, sometimes late at night. You ever been to North Dakota?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I've been to South Dakota. I didn't get to North.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  Was that the question I asked? Cause I don't believe it was.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  You been to Texas? I've been to New Mexico.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  So the answer is no.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  I bet to a Texas Roadhouse. No, I'm just joking.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  So the answer is no. I've never, I've never been to North Dakota either. Actually, I've never been to South Dakota either, if you're wondering.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you should go. We have some good listeners in both North and South Dakota that came to Crime Con.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  So they'd be happy to have you over there.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Maybe, maybe not. You're making assumptions.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  I do that a lot.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  On August 17th, 1974, Arliss and Bruce got married in North Dakota. In late August, they moved to California. Bruce was a sophomore pre-med student at Stanford. The newlyweds lived in Quillan Hall in Escondido Village. Arliss got a job as a receptionist at a local law firm. So, I mean, you just kind of look at them. They're young, newlyweds, but it seems like they've got a pretty bright future ahead of them.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Seems like it.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  You know, Bruce's pre-med. I think they have a plan.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  Is what it seems like to me.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Got to have a plan.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, but Arliss and Bruce were married for just under two months before she died. Arliss was murdered on the night of October 12th, 1974, around 11:30 PM. She and Bruce got into an argument about their car's tire pressure. Police deemed this argument insignificant.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Just trying to imagine what that conversation would be like, you know? Was it him or her that was upset that the tire had too little or too much pressure?

• 5:40Speaker 00

  I wanted it 28. She wants it at 32.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  We meet in the middle at 30, maybe? I don't know.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Damn it, how many times I have to tell you? 30 PSI. Why did you push it over that?

• 5:52Speaker 00

  But I think, Gibbs, you know, anybody who is in a relationship, has ever been in a relationship, you know, there are some arguments that really are petty. They don't, you know, they're not what you would. Think of as subjects that would require an argument, but one breaks out. It just happens.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  I have been in arguments that I have stopped the argument, argument and said, why are we arguing about this again?

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Cause it, it doesn't matter. It makes no sense.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  Arliss told her husband that she wanted to pray alone inside Stanford Memorial Church. And so they parted ways and maybe that's probably not unusual, right? You get into an argument, all right, let's take a break.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  Cool off, everybody go their separate ways and that could just be different places of the house. In this case, she wants to go to church, but Bruce became worried around midnight and he started walking around the campus, looking for his wife. He called the Stanford police to report her missing at 3 a.m. Officers from the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office went to the church and reported that all the outer doors were locked. Okay. What do you make of that?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I mean, it sounds like no one's getting in, nobody's getting out.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Yep. Or you could, if you're the police, maybe think, well, maybe she came, but it was locked and couldn't get in. So now we gotta start, you know, or change our search to somewhere else.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Widen that perimeter.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Maybe. At 5:45 a.m. On October 13th, campus security guard, Steven Crawford, found Arliss's body in the church's east transept, near the altar. She was face up with her hands folded across her chest. An ice pick was sticking out of the back of her head, but the handle had broken off and was missing.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  This isn't a church.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Sounds like brutal. You know, someone coming at you, probably didn't see it coming.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Since it's to the back of the head, I think that's a good assumption.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  And how hard do you have to hit somebody with an ice pick to break the handle off?

• 8:04Speaker 00

  I don't know, but ice picks are pretty dangerous. If you think about

• 8:07Speaker 01

  They are.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  How sharp they are. There were also signs of strangulation. Arliss was nude from the waist down and had been sexually assaulted. A three foot long altar candle was inserted into her body.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  And another was placed between her breasts. Her jeans were arranged across her legs in a diamond pattern. Man, this is such a, a strange scene, not to mention the fact that it's brutal and it's sad, but it's also very strange. It's a strange murder scene.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  It's almost reminds me of a scene from that, uh, one of those Dan Brown books.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, or like seven or, you know, something like that where you have a, a very, I get where you're going with the Dan Brown because of the religious.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Angle, because this happens in the church. Investigators found semen on a kneeling pillow near the body. A partial palm print was taken from one of the candles. All right. So on the surface, you would think that's some pretty good evidence.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Well, they are lucky that they have the evidence that they do have because we've done plenty of cases where they don't have a fraction of what this investigator will have.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, it is 1974, right? So they're limited. At least with what they can do with semen, there's no DNA or, you know, or anything like that. So, but we know what that would do today.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  To an investigation, it would, it would mean, uh, a lot of things. It doesn't mean that you would automatically be able to solve the case, but you definitely have a leg up. There's no doubt about that. Witnesses saw Arliss inside the church at about 11:35 PM. Steven Crawford told the visitors that the church would be closing in 15 minutes. He locked up the building around midnight and he didn't see anyone inside. He rechecked the doors at 2 AM and they were still locked. So that kind of explains, right? The police go.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 00

  They had locked the doors to the church thinking, okay, everybody's left and we're going to lock it up. Then Steven returned to the church at 5:45 AM to open it up for the day and found the west side door open. It had been forced open from the inside.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Okay, so somebody on the inside forced it open to get out of there.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Yes, which tells me maybe they were both locked in there.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  At the time that the the crime occurred.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Just hiding from when Steven looked in earlier.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Maybe, or maybe the crime had already occurred before he locked the doors. But the perpetrator was being quiet.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  And then didn't realize that he was gonna lock the doors and then at some point figured out, oh, I gotta get the heck out of here. So I gotta figure out how to force these open. Police told the press that the murder had all the earmarks of a sex crime. That that doesn't surprise me at all.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Under Sheriff Tom Rosa said they they discounted reports that the murder was a ritual killing.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it was kind of set up that way.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I I could understand why maybe you would think that's an angle that I I think at the very least has to be explored. Like we mentioned, it's a it's a strange crime scene. On top of the fact that it is has occurred inside of a church.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  I mean, you could go the other angle, too. They made it to look like that to try to throw investigators off.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. Many Stanford students were fearful and said they no longer felt safe on campus. And again, we've talked about it so many times. That's gonna happen anytime you have a brutal murder.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  In a community.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  You know, depending on how large the community is, but if you're talking about a campus and some of the campuses can be large, right? And have a lot of people, but either way, when you hear that somebody's killed, murdered in the way that we talked about. How could students not be fearful? There's a killer on the loose.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and he's killing inside of a church.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  So like that, you always think, if I need a safe haven, I can go to a church.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  You don't expect that to happen at a church.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  You really don't. And, and I think because of that, you know, we have to keep in mind, what does that mean? Does that mean that the person followed Arliss to the church, into the church? I can't imagine that a killer is just laying in wait at church for somebody to come in.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Seems strange.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  That does seem like a strange place to try to find a victim, if that's what you're, you know, what you're trying to do. Bruce Perry was an early suspect, but was soon ruled out. He was said to have been cooperative from the beginning with police. Bruce spoke to the press a few days after the murder and said, he told the police, he believed Arliss was locked inside the church and wanted her to be woken up if she had fallen asleep, but no one checked inside. So, you know, he's relaying this as when he reported her missing, he must have said, hey, she went to the church. I'm worried that she fell asleep and they, they locked the doors and she's still in there.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause you could see that happening.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, how carefully are they checking to see, you know, who's in the church? I don't know. Chief Marvin Harrington of the Stanford Department of Public Safety said, the call was received and officers checked the area. The exterior doors were locked. There were some women walking in the area, but none of them were Arliss. And, yeah, I get, you know, if you're looking at the police here, I, I don't know that there's any blame to be placed on them.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  It's not like they discounted the call. They took it. They, they checked in at the church. The doors were locked. What else were they gonna do?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like they did their diligence.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Bruce also noted that he took a lie detector test on October 14th and was clear. And we know how much they loved their lie detector tests in the seventies.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Loved them.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  He said, whoever did this has to be insane. And to me, it's a very interesting quote. Cause I, I, I have a feeling, you know, when you're talking about the sixties, the seventies,

• 15:02Speaker 00

  that was a natural thought. Oh, no one but an insane person would commit this kind of crime.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Now, we know today because crimes have been studied and, you know, we, we know a lot more about it, that not everyone who does this is insane. Some people just decide they wanna either feel what it's like to kill someone. That's always the scary one to me. Or, you know, they have a compulsion or, or whatever. There's a, a lot of different reasons why people choose to commit murder, but it, they're certainly not all insane.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Santa Clary, Clary?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Santa Clary?

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Or Clara?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  County officials ruled out links between Arliss's murder and three previous murders in the area dating back to February 1973. The week after the murder, the Stanford police said there were four or five potential suspects they wanted to talk to to get their alibis.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like they're doing what they should be doing. You know, they're not just sitting around, not looking into it. They're, they're taking the steps that they need to.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, again, I don't know what they have at their disposal.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  As far as, um, you know, what can you do with the semen? Maybe blood typing is probably about all you could do.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  In 1974.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty limited.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Obviously, the palm print, if you had a palm print on file in that local jurisdiction, you could compare palm prints. But I don't think they had a, a big database and where a computer would just go boop, boop, boop, boop.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  So, I mean, you know, it's, it's a thing where you look at the days before technology. I mean, you can even go all the way back to the early 1900s, even the 1800s and. Just see how police did their work and it's amazing that they were able to solve as many crimes as they did. Now, I'm sure they put a lot of people away that were innocent.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  It's hard not to think that that happened, but you know, they did the best with what they had. I think most of the time.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Evidence had been sent off to the FBI crime lab in DC and authorities were waiting on a preliminary report. Police believe that Arliss was locked in by the night security guard, but they didn't know whether she was already dead when the doors were locked. That kind of goes back to what, you know, we were speculating on. I think there's a few different scenarios that you could speculate on, but I don't know how you could know for sure which one is correct.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  It'd be difficult.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  I do too. Captain Frank Masunik of the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office said, per the Peninsula Times Tribune, "My feeling all along has been that the killer was locked in. There's no question in my mind, Mrs. Perry was in the church when it was locked." So in his mind, they were both locked in. Now, again, whether she was already dead when the doors were locked, could she have been incapacitated and then killed later? We don't know that.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  And I don't know how they would have determined that.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  But it sounds like he's confident about the fact that they were locked in.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I can understand why, right? She goes in the church.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  She's seen in the church, the doors are locked. At some point, someone forces the door open. To me, it all kind of lines up with both her and the killer being inside the church when it was locked and then the killer later figuring out that, hey, I gotta bust out of here and get away. Police said at least 45 people were in or near the church on the night of October 12th. The FBI developed 125 latent fingerprints from the materials sent to them. And about 15 people were cleared through fingerprint comparison.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Okay. I mean, that's something, right? I mean, you had 45 people that were in and around the church at the time and they were able to clear 15?

• 19:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. And again, that's something you definitely could do right with fingerprints.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  If you had a fingerprint or a palm print or whatever it was, you could take somebody else's and compare them. And you say, nope, it's not, it's not you. But if you don't have the killer's fingerprint, or the killer is not one of these 45 people that you're talking to, or whatever it is, then it becomes a lot tougher.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  If this guy's on file in another state, okay, that makes it tough. Because there just wasn't that big connection.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  Back then, at least seven people were actually inside the church on the night of October 12th, including Arliss and the security guard. Four others were identified, but the seventh individual was not. A passerby described him as a young man with sandy hair and a medium build. And I would assume in 1974, that would have been a pretty apt description of you.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Or anybody at that time in California.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, no kidding. A lot of people have, you know, sandy, blondish hair in California. But, you know, young man, medium build. Okay, you're not really narrowing it down all that much, but if you've got 45 people, maybe that helps you out.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  If you've got thousands of people, then no, maybe not so much. In January 1979, the FBI released a new profile of the killer, indicating that he may still stalk the campus. The killer may have seen Arliss's casual clothing as a defilement of the place of worship, or he may have killed for fear he would be overwhelmed by lust.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Oh, the overwhelmed by lust theory.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. He was most likely a loner and kept a souvenir from the night. And it was said that Arliss's glasses were missing.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  That's not surprising, right? If they kept the souvenir or a

• 21:42Speaker 00

  No.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  No, and I mean, none of this really surprises me and profiles rarely do. Right? FBI profile, uh, profiles rarely surprise me because I think more often than not, they follow a pretty similar pattern.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Now, this one comes five years after the murder and they're saying, this guy's probably still stalking the campus. Okay, he's not been caught, so yeah.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  He probably could be.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  May very well be doing that. Now, to me, the, the clothing she was wearing, being seen as casual to an individual. And then they think, well, this person is defiling my place of worship. Yeah, could it happen? Yeah. But is it more likely to me than some of the other ones? I would say no. Now, if you're talking about lust, things like that, I would be more apt to, to sign on.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, same here.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  But the fact that she wasn't dressed to the nines to go worship at, you know, 11 o'clock at night or whatever time it was. And somebody got mad about that, mad enough to shove an ice pick in the back of her head.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  That's, that's, that's kind of tough to buy.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, same here. And then you think about, that's why I, I lean back on the lust part because think about, you know, what the individual did with the candle.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  You know, the semen, this stuff. I mean, I think that makes more sense.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  It, it absolutely does. Also, I mean, how many times do we talk about it? What are the big motives for murder?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Right? Greed, lust, those types of things.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Somebody not wearing the right clothing that you think they should be and you're upset about that, it's not one you see.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  No, and if that upsets you, why would you go to the extent that you're going to kill the person and then you're going to perform sexual acts?

• 23:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  I mean, that's like, aren't you defiling the church greater than?

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Right. I think that's a great point. That's why to me that one just doesn't make a ton of sense.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  They said that he was most likely a white male between 17 to 22 years old and highly religious. Well, highly religious, why? Because this happened in a church?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Again, that's why the profile thing to me, some turn out to be right, some turn out to be wrong. It's, it's all kind of an educated guess. I get it. It's built on years of experience and all of that, but could this be a person who's not religious at all, but was fixated with this woman and happened to follow her into the church?

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. When I think of highly religious, I think of that guy in that movie that would, you know, beat himself with the uh.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Oh, you're going back to Dan Brown again. You're really on a Dan Brown kick today.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You know, he had that.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Self flagellate.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  I think it was called.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Didn't he have something else he would twist that?

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. That was even worse.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  That would actually dig into his skin.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  So by this time detective said they had questioned over 50 people and compared their prints with those at the crime scene. A number of people also took lie detector tests. So to your point, they're, they're obviously doing the investigation.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  They're doing what they're supposed to be doing. They're getting into it. Arliss's husband, Bruce willingly provided a DNA sample to investigators.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Willingly, like, hey, you need a DNA sample? I'll give it to you right. I can do it right now if you want it.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  But wouldn't you do that too? If you knew that you weren't guilty?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  You'd be one of, you'd be the first person in line to say, hey, make sure you know, I'll give you a DNA sample. And obviously this would be later because, you know, DNA wasn't really a, a thing.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  I'd probably just show up with, I mean, I always carry a.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  A sample. I don't want to know what kind. Please don't tell me.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  I just gotta rotate them every now and then for the expiration of them.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  But yeah, I mean, you know, to me, when somebody willingly offers up, you know, good chance that they're not guilty.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Right. I feel pretty confident he's clear.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. Security guard Steven Crawford did not submit a DNA sample, but police obtained one from an object he discarded. He also didn't take a lie detector test when others did.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Makes you wonder, you know, hey, you're a security guard, kind of law enforcement ish, you know? But why wouldn't you want to help out here, you know, do the lie detector test? And, but I love these sneaky, you know, wait for him to put his coffee cup down or.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Oh, I always love that.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Straws, coffee cups, you know, there's, there's been all kinds of different things, but it does, it doesn't mean Steven Crawford's guilty. But you know, in the eyes of investigators, he, he has to go up the list.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Sure he does.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Right? He's not being cooperative as far as giving DNA, taking a lie detector test. Now we said it, right? At this time, DNA profiling as we know it did not exist.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  In his book, The Ultimate Evil, The Search for the Sons of Sam, journalist Maury Terry proposes the theory that Arlis was murdered by a satanic cult on the instructions of Satanists from Bismarck.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Now.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Came down from Bismarck.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  Now this book came out in 1987, which to me is, is during the height of the whole satanic panic thing. And it doesn't surprise me that someone would say, well, it's probably a satanic cult.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  They did blame a lot of stuff back then on satanic cults.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. And it's cool. I blamed it a lot of times while my homework wasn't turned in.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  Satanic cult.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  You know, they had me, I couldn't get my homework done. Terry also speculates on serial killer David Berkowitz's alleged involvement. So, you know, you have the son of Sam, David Berkowitz. He's killing people in New York City, but you know, maybe he decides to take a trip to North Dakota.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Seems a little farfetched.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  But in 1979, Berkowitz sent a book to North Dakota authorities in which he wrote in the margins, Arliss Perry hunted, stalked and slain, followed to California Stanford University. I said, North Dakota, but obviously the murder happened in California. Now, we know now that Berkowitz was kind of full of it.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  And most of the stuff that he said, especially about the son of Sam and the dog and all of that turned out to be just made up.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  BS, yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  BS, but also, you know, how hard would it be for him maybe to learn about this murder? And then send this book into authorities? The other thing we know about serial killers is they like to take credit for things sometimes that they didn't do. Especially when they're already in, in prison, or they have to lose.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  If it gets some more limelight too, some of these guys, they like the attention.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you know, if you think about a serial killer, especially when they're captured, oh my gosh, it's, it's huge. It's big news, right? It's a, a media circus with the trial, but then what happens? Eventually all of that kind of goes away and you're just left to rot in a cell for the rest of your life or to be put to death at some point. So to your point, does someone say, well, I haven't been in the news for a while. Nobody's come to talk to me. I'll do this.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  And it'll kind of stir things up again.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  You know, I think if I was a serial killer today, I'd probably like do a true crime podcast.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  You know, like as a co-host or something.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  You know, and, and.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Not be the main person.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  No, no, no, just be, but be there and you know, give, give some input, right or wrong.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Get free food.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, yeah. Eat for free like I do. Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Just all kinds of.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  Perks there, I guess.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  You know.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Now, in a few letters, Berkowitz suggested that he heard details of the crime from Manson the second, who he said was the alleged killer.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was interviewed in prison, but investigators believed he had nothing of value to offer, per the San Jose Mercury News. Doesn't surprise me at all.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Uh, with everything that we know about David Berkowitz. Maury Terry noted that Berkowitz volunteered information about the case without being prompted. Terry also interviewed Arliss's friends in North Dakota and learned that someone on the Stanford campus took a telephone listing under Bruce Perry's name. The confusion when Arliss's best friend and Bruce's mother attempted to reach them at the fraudulent phone number led Arliss to call the number herself and speak to someone. In a letter dated September 27th, 1974, Arliss wrote, "I had to laugh about your call to Bruce Perry. Mrs. Perry made the same mistake.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  She called them too. But the strange part of it is that his name is not only Bruce Perry, but it's Bruce D. Perry. But not only that, it's Bruce Duncan Perry, and he attends Stanford University, and he just got married this summer. One thing, his wife's name is not Arliss. Anyway, next time you get the urge to call, the number is, da, da, da, da. This time, I guarantee you'll get the right Bruce Perry." So, you know, kind of a strange thing.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  It is.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  To have happen.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Kind of interesting.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Now, could it be that there's a, another Bruce Duncan Perry? And technically, but one that just got married that summer? I mean, it seems pretty strange.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Pretty, pretty farfetched.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Serial killer Ted Bundy was also considered a suspect at one point, but he had a verified alibi. Now, we've talked about it a lot, right? When you have these unsolved cases, pretty normal for police to look at, you know, serial killers who had similar MOs, who were operating maybe in or around the area at the same time, that happens, or that happens today, but it's, it's happened throughout history.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not surprised that they looked at Bundy initially because, you know, campus, California, I mean, it just kind of makes sense.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Plus, you know, you, you have a verified serial killer.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  You already know this person's capable of this type of murder.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Now, we just want to see if they actually did this one. In August 2016, detectives submitted an item of Arliss's clothing for DNA testing. In 2018, DNA evidence definitively linked former security guard Steven Crawford to Arliss's murder. By this time, Gibbs, Crawford was 72 years old.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Man, 72.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  And that's the power of DNA. And we, we keep talking about it. You know, 2018 seemed to me to be kind of the year where a lot of the, uh, the newer DNA technology was being unleashed. You know, you think about the Golden State Killer being captured when that 2000, I think that was 2018. I can't remember. It was around that timeframe. But, um, you know, I, I think it's when they were starting to realize some of the. The power of DNA, especially when it came to like genetic genealogy and, and things like that. But that's the amazing thing about DNA a- as it relates to forensic work and, and

• 34:23Speaker 00

  police work, the technology just keeps evolving.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  And getting better and better as far as being able to get samples, um, maybe on things that were tried years and years ago, but the technology wasn't there to even get a viable sample and, and now they can.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I love that, that this is happening, you know, and I'm, I'm just trying to picture all these people that thought they got away with something. And then they see the cruiser come down the lane or they see the, or they see the, uh, police officer at the door, you know?

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Or they watch you on YouTube hitting your microphone.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  My mic, yeah. Um, but I love that because you know, it's gotta be a feeling of like, oh shit.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, because my thought is always that, you know, especially in these crimes that happened, 60, 70s, things like that, they had many, many years of thinking, oh, I got away with this. There is no way they'll ever connect me. Then at a certain point, they had to start being a little concerned when you see on the news that some of these cold cases are being solved using DNA. And then you really gotta be shaking in your boots when you see some of the advancements down the road. And at that point you're thinking, oh, they could get me.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  And now it's like an everyday looking over my shoulder type of thing, which I'm with you. I think that's amazing because we don't want these people, number one, to get away with these murders, but number two, to live their life free from, at the very least anxiety about being caught. And, um, and obviously we want them to eventually be caught. But 72 years old.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  You figure at 72, most people, and I say most, not everybody, they've been married, maybe once, maybe multiple times, usually have a family, grandkids.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Probably retired.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  You're somebody's grandpa.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  And now all of a sudden, you're linked to a murder. I mean, what does that do? You know, throughout the, the family tree, there's just a lot that goes into these identifications.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  On June 28th, 2018, as police arrived at his apartment in San Jose, California, with a search warrant, Steven Crawford shot himself in the head.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Couldn't handle it.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  No, and, and to your point, I do think that he was aware, maybe not that they were closing in on him, but that the technology was, was there that they could catch him.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  And I'm sure he was very aware of the type of evidence that they had.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, since he left it on the kneeling post.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm sure it'd been reported, right? Well, we know it had because this is where we got some of our information from, old newspaper articles and things like that. So as time goes by, right, for Steven Crawford, and you're starting to see what they can do with DNA, and you know what you left behind. You gotta be really worried.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  So now we're not surprised at all why he didn't want to give a DNA sample back then.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  No.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  And why he didn't want to take the lie detector test.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  No, because, you know, he would have failed the, the lie detector test, I'm sure. And whatever they could have done, which obviously was not full blown DNA profiling, but. Most likely, they would have matched his blood type.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Maybe something along those lines. I don't know if it would have been enough to convict him, but he wasn't taking that chance. Deputies arrived at his apartment at 9:04 a.m. and they spoke to him through the door. Crawford asked for a few minutes to get dressed. Deputies thought he was stalling, so they used the key they got from the office to get inside. He was sitting on the bed with a gun in his hand. Deputies immediately backed away. And then a short time later, they heard a gunshot. When they re-entered, Crawford was dead from a self-inflicted wound. And, you know, for me, that is

• 38:45Speaker 00

  just the kind of proof that he had known, at the very least, that this could happen to him. They could figure out who he was. And he had made the necessary preparations. Let's call it that. And in his mind, he was never going to be taken alive. I think he had made that choice.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Certainly didn't want to go to prison.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  No. He didn't want to pay for his crime. At a news conference, Lori Smith with Santa Clara County said, as quoted by Palo Alto Online, "We followed all the leads and unraveled an entanglement of the elements associated with the murder of Arlis Perry. This is a case that eludes us no longer." And I, you know, I wonder what the feeling is like for investigators.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  We talk a lot about what is the feeling for the family to finally get that type of notification that the murder of your loved one is solved so many years later. But, you know, you also have to think about investigators, a lot of people who worked on it retired and probably found out at some point, right, that it was finally solved. It's got to be a really gratifying feeling.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  I think so. I mean, the relief and the.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Almost, I think you would almost break down and think, finally.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Finally, we got the, got the guy.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  They worked on it for many, many years. They never gave up and they finally figured out who it was. Smith said that Crawford had been a suspect, but there just wasn't enough evidence to charge him. And we talked about it, right? How could he not be a suspect? First of all, he's the, the person who found the body.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  And, and that person is always going to be, if not a suspect, a person of interest. They have to be cleared. Because many times the person who finds the body turns out to be the killer. But then also you have him, you know, not wanting to take a lie detector test, not wanting to give up any type of, of DNA. He's gotta be a suspect.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  And he had access to the location.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. He had keys.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Cold case detectives contacted Crawford in the weeks leading up to his death. And so, right, we talked about it. At some point, he had to know there was a chance. Well, when they contacted him, that must've really set the alarm bells off, right? They're on to me.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Right. It's a matter of time.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. So he, at that point, if he wasn't already like geared up to possibly do something, at that point, he probably did gear up. He was linked to the crime through DNA evidence found on Arliss's clothing. That evidence was pushed forward by lead detective Sergeant Richard Alanis. Alanis kept a picture of Arliss to serve as a reminder of her life. And we've heard that, right? A lot of detectives do for cases that go back 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  I think it's good. I think it's important to remember why you're doing what you're doing every day or once a week or whatever the. The frequency is on these, you know, cold cases. So you remember this is, this was a person.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  Right. Not just a cold case with a number. There were, there's an actual person and I think police know that detectives who searched Crawford's apartment, found a box in his closet that contained personal papers and the jacket for the book, The Ultimate Evil by Maury Terry, which discusses the murder of Arliss Perry. A hastily written suicide note from 2016 was found on a computer table near the bed. It didn't mention the murder directly. This date may have coincided with when the lead detective began questioning Crawford again. Arliss's mother, Jean, was 88 years old when the case was solved. She told the Mercury News

• 42:52Speaker 00

  that the case had taken a toll in recent years on her husband, Marvin, who sadly died three months earlier. She was heartbroken that the perpetrator wasn't cuffed before he died.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. You'd like to be able to get him that closure. So.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  But.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  It's sad that he died without ever knowing that the case was solved. Arliss's sister, Karen Barnes, spoke to reporters by phone and said that their first was a reaction was after all these years, it's about time. And I get that.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  And is it that some people at a certain point think it's just been too long. It's never going to be solved. And then others, they never give up hope. They never waver. They, you know, kind of remain steadfast that no, it is going to be solved. But either way, you, you'd have to have some sort of reaction like that. Like it's about time.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  You know, we've been waiting so long. They knew the sheriff's office was still investigating. Occasionally they received inquiries from detectives following up on various aspects of the case. They weren't surprised to learn Crawford was a suspect because as they said, from what we heard, his story tended to change every now and then.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  And we've talked about it many times, uh, before on the Unsolved Podcast is when you have these people changing their story.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Tends to be because there's no truth behind it. They're lying.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  You know, and

• 44:28Speaker 00

  They're making something up and then

• 44:30Speaker 01

  They forget what they made up.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Or they're contradicted with facts. So they gotta make up a new story that kind of fits the facts that, you know, are put before them. Now she also said their closure wasn't complete because they didn't know why Arliss was killed. And yeah, knowing who that's important. But the why I think for many people is also very important. Why? Why would someone want to do this to our loved one? This person who, you know, everyone seemed to really like, said was a nice person. Why would they do it?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Makes you wonder, you know, was it just somebody he lusted after when he's, when he's seen her in there and then after the fact, he did all that extra stuff to try to make the police think something more than what it was?

• 45:23Speaker 00

  Or was that part of his fantasy?

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Um, or part of, you know, the killing itself and the gratification that goes along with it for some of these individuals. Crawford's neighbor Yanet Christa Stoma told Palo Alto News that they exchanged greetings several times during the year she lived at the complex. Crawford kept to himself, but seemed normal. Palo Alto News provided further information on Crawford's background. He was an Air Force veteran. He began working for Stanford in 1971 as a police officer and carried a gun. In 1972, the new police chief began reorganizing the Stanford Police Department

• 46:08Speaker 00

  and questioned whether many officers were qualified to carry guns. They were asked to reapply and about three quarters of the force did not qualify. So they were offered jobs as security guards. Crawford was one of those people. It was said that he complained bitterly about the change.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Well. He just wasn't happy that he had to be probably, probably to him, it was a demotion.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm sure he looked at it that way. He was a police officer. Now he's a security guard. I mean, that's nothing against security guards, but I'm with you. I'm thinking, you know, if I'm in his mind, that's a demotion.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  And he wasn't happy about it. He remained at Stanford until 1976. But he began stealing items from some of the offices there, such as human skulls, a walking cane given to the university founder, rare books. He also got a degree, Gibbs, from Stanford, using a blank diploma that he took from the print shop.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Now, that sounds something like you or I would have done back in the day, or maybe just me.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Maybe just you, but okay, you're just gonna walk around as the security guard stealing a bunch of stuff. You're also gonna be so bold to give yourself a degree from Stanford. This is not podunk you. This is Stanford University. It's

• 47:42Speaker 01

  prestigious.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Pretty prestigious, not, not that easy to get into. You gotta work your butt off. Crawford was arrested for receipt of stolen property. He received a six month suspended sentence. He claimed he was angry at the university and the police department for treating him as a suspect. Sheriff Lori Smith said investigators didn't think Crawford was connected to other unsolved murders at Stanford or in the area, but they were still looking into it.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  I just find it weird that he was upset that they were looking at him as a suspect. You did it.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Well, but I just snorted. He's not gonna be happy because he doesn't want to be looked at. But you're right. He did it. Doesn't mean he has to be happy about it.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  But let's talk about the notion that he would commit other crimes.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  And I think to do that, you have to go back and kind of revisit this crime and its brutality.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Obviously, we talked about the sexual nature of the crime, the, the ice pick to the back of the head. I feel like this is the type of person who could have committed other crimes.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  I think so. I, I don't think you could clearly say this is an isolated issue.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  No, there's, there's no way. Now, could someone commit a crime like this and then never murder anybody again? Yeah, technically they could. I think there's a, there's a strong likelihood though, that if you're able to do this, the chances are that you either enjoyed it, or there was some aspect to it that you're going to want to experience again as nasty and vile as that sounds. Former San Jose Mercury News columnist Scott Herhold spent years studying the case and developed a snapshot of Crawford's personality. He said he could be charming, but he was a loner and a liar.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  For example, he claimed his parents died in a car accident when he and his brother were young, but they actually died separately when he was in his early twenties. He was in a square dance group and his groupmates called him the prevaricator because of his tendencies to tell stories.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  That's a big term there to use instead of just saying, comma, liar.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  I, I've never actually heard of that word. And I feel like my vocabulary is decent. I just,

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  it's not one I'm familiar with.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Well, if you take the, the Vary, you already had the pre.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Here we go. Break it down and it's Latin and you know all about it.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  I, I, I think the, the first, uh, the first maybe, um, thing to jump out at somebody was the fact that he was in a square dance group. Nothing against, uh, all you square dancers out there, but, uh,

• 50:48Speaker 01

  But, you know.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Single going to the square dance.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe you should be looked into.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Maybe, I don't know.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  So as we wrapped this one up, Gibbs, the murder of Arliss Perry was the biggest unsolved crime in Santa Clara County history. Her murder remained unsolved for more than four decades. But as we talked about, right, investigators never stopped pursuing their main suspect. And they used advances in DNA technology to link Steven Crawford to the murder. Sadly, although there's not a,

• 51:22Speaker 00

  I guess what you would call a resolution in this case. Cause there's no legal justice for Arliss and her family, but we know who did it.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, at least he's no longer around.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, I get what you're saying.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  But, um, resolution, but then also not resolution. Those cases are always strange when somebody doesn't make it to trial. Even though the evidence is overwhelming, I'm sure he would have been convicted. But.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Just wish that he would have suffered.

• 52:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, because.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Through some of this.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  I think though these, these types of cases are even more infuriating because what he did was extremely horrible.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  It was.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  And he took someone's life, but then he got to live his life for a very long time.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  I mean, forty some years, man, just, uh, and I think for a good chunk of that, he didn't turn around to look who was behind them at all.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  No, at, at a certain point, I'm sure he did, but like you said, the, the majority, the majority of it, I'm sure he lived, uh, and I don't know how good of a life it was, but.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  It was a free life. He was free to do whatever he wanted and he shouldn't have been.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Because he, you know, he killed someone. But that's it for our episode on Arliss Perry. You got anything else?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  All right.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  See how simple that was?

• 52:54Speaker 00

  No, you just say no.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  So that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.