Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Angelika Graswald About this episode Angelika Graswald was accused of killing her fiancé during a 2015 kayaking trip on the Hudson River. Prosecutors argued that she wanted out of the relationship, so she intentionally removed the kayak’s drain plug, which contributed to its subsequent capsizing and her fiancé’s drowning.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the case of Angelika Graswald. She made numerous incriminating statements, even going so far as to say she wanted her fiancé dead. The trial came down to the prosecution's theory against the defense's testing of the theories and the possibilities of how things may have happened that day.
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1:48 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 446 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
1:59 Speaker 00 Doing great.
2:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01 Speaker 00 You know, we were talking on Patreon about our weeks, what we're watching.
2:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:06 Speaker 00 My daughter and her fiance are fully entrenched in back in, in, in our house.
2:14 Speaker 01 Your new roomies.
2:15 Speaker 00 And new roommates and things are going pretty well.
2:17 Speaker 01 Well, good.
2:18 Speaker 00 You know, we were a little worried. We didn't know how it was gonna go.
2:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:21 Speaker 00 But they kind of have their own space and it's good. Things are good.
2:26 Speaker 01 I just find it weird that you told me there was no room here when I was asking.
2:30 Speaker 00 There's no room at the end.
2:33 Speaker 01 But now suddenly you've got plenty of room.
2:35 Speaker 00 Okay. I said it wrong. There's no room for you.
2:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:38 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Zach J.
2:42 Speaker 01 What's going on Zach?
2:43 Speaker 00 Paula.
2:44 Speaker 01 Hey Paula.
2:45 Speaker 00 Bronwyn Mason.
2:46 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Bronwyn.
2:46 Speaker 00 Rochelle Purdue.
2:47 Speaker 01 There's Rochelle.
2:49 Speaker 00 Ducky.
2:49 Speaker 01 Good old Ducky.
2:50 Speaker 00 Sierra B.
2:51 Speaker 01 Hey Sierra.
2:52 Speaker 00 Christina Cortez.
2:53 Speaker 01 What's happening Christina?
2:55 Speaker 00 Ashley Finn.
2:56 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Ashley.
2:57 Speaker 00 A Hunt.
2:58 Speaker 01 What's going on A?
2:58 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Wendy Thompson.
3:01 Speaker 01 There's Wendy.
3:02 Speaker 00 And if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Misha Kona.
3:09 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Misha.
3:10 Speaker 00 Yeah. So we appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of it. Right now Gibbs, we have a new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the Bogle Chandler mystery. And this takes us back to 1960s Australia. Dr. Gilbert Bogle and Margaret Chandler were found on the banks of the Lane Cove River in Sydney. And it's kind of become an infamous case.
3:39 Speaker 01 It has.
3:40 Speaker 00 Due to the circumstances in which their bodies were found and around the cause of death and, and all of that. So make sure you check it out. All right. You ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?
3:53 Speaker 01 I am.
3:53 Speaker 00 We are talking about Angelica Graswald. She was accused of killing her fiance during a 2015 kayaking trip on the Hudson River. Prosecutors argued that she wanted out of the relationship. So she intentionally removed the kayak's drain plug. Which contributed to its capsizing and her fiance's drowning. And this is a pretty famous case as well. It's been covered by a lot of the, the shows, right? Your 48 Hours, your 2020s. So some people might be familiar with this one. Angelica Lipska moved from Latvia to the US in August 2000 to work as a nanny for a family in Connecticut.
4:36 Speaker 00 She originally planned on staying for a year, but she decided she wanted to live in the US permanently. I wonder how many people that happens to?
4:46 Speaker 01 I think more than we probably realize.
4:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I, I can imagine people from some places around the world come to the US and they grow to like it and say, hey, I'd like to live here.
5:01 Speaker 01 Certainly a lot of opportunity.
5:03 Speaker 00 There is, just like, you know, you taking that trip to Greece. You've been talking about it nonstop that you'd love to live that lifestyle.
5:11 Speaker 01 I would.
5:12 Speaker 00 I don't know that it would be great for your long-term health
5:17 Speaker 00 or your, uh, your longevity, but it sounds like a lot of fun.
5:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is a lot of fun.
5:22 Speaker 00 In the early 2000s, Angelica studied English and German in hopes of becoming a teacher or translator. Her friend said she was also passionate about photography. She was married and divorced twice. Graswald was her ex-husband's last name and she chose to keep it after the divorce.
5:43 Speaker 01 Well, some people do that. I know my ex kept my last name because we had kids together.
5:49 Speaker 00 Well, and, and I can see that happening a lot.
5:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:54 Speaker 00 Want to have the same name as your children.
5:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, makes sense.
5:59 Speaker 00 But now let's say if you don't have any children, I wonder how many people keep it versus don't.
6:06 Speaker 01 Maybe they really didn't like their first name, not their first first name, but their
6:10 Speaker 00 First last name.
6:11 Speaker 01 Their original last name.
6:13 Speaker 00 After Angelica separated from her second husband in 2009, she moved in with Michael Colvin, whom she had only known for three weeks. They broke up in early 2010. Mike told 48 Hours that Angelica had a temper. He recounted an incident that occurred shortly after they broke up. She insisted on keeping the cat. They adopted together and threatened to break into the house if he didn't give it to her. She laid down in the driveway as he was trying to leave. So he had no choice but to give her the cat.
6:47 Speaker 01 Okay, that's like one of those protest moves.
6:50 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:51 Speaker 01 Lay down in front of the big piece of equipment.
6:53 Speaker 00 That's trying to cut down the redwood.
6:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:57 Speaker 00 Where you chain yourself to the tree. In September 2013, Angelica met Vincent Viafore at a pub in Poughkeepsie. Vincent, who was almost 11 years older than Angelica, was a project manager with the state of New York. Vincent grew up in Wappinger, New York. His friends agreed that Vincent was always the life of the party and he enjoyed going out and having a good time. So he sounds like a Gibby.
7:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. Hey, if you're gonna go out, have a good time.
7:27 Speaker 00 And always be the life of the party.
7:29 Speaker 01 If you can.
7:30 Speaker 00 Vincent's friend Sherri Paye said it was love at first sight for Vincent and Angelica. Like Angelica, Vincent had also been married and divorced twice. They moved in together soon after they started dating and she became part of Vincent's friend group. You know that that saying, love at first sight?
7:50 Speaker 01 Right.
7:51 Speaker 00 I think it happens for quite a few people.
7:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, I believe that.
7:57 Speaker 00 Some people, they grow to, you know, fall in love with someone over time. Some people are so enamored with the person the first time they meet that they're they're kind of thunderstruck.
8:10 Speaker 01 And that's how you were with your wife.
8:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, I would say that.
8:14 Speaker 01 Thunderstruck.
8:15 Speaker 00 Thunderstruck. Angelica was working as a bartender when they started dating, but she quit her job and Vincent supported her financially. They got engaged in February 2014. Angelica told the New York Times, it was a spontaneous proposal. They were at a hibachi steakhouse and her ring was a slice of onion from the grill.
8:38 Speaker 01 Okay, different.
8:40 Speaker 00 That's very different. First of all, I love a good hibachi steakhouse.
8:43 Speaker 01 I know you do.
8:44 Speaker 00 Love it.
8:45 Speaker 01 Really do.
8:46 Speaker 00 Now, a lot of them, they take the onion, they slice it to make the little volcano.
8:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:54 Speaker 00 I don't know about then taking that slice of onion and putting it on your, your girlfriend's finger.
9:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:02 Speaker 00 After it's been heating on that grill.
9:05 Speaker 01 Doesn't, doesn't seem like the best way to do it. I don't know. It seems.
9:09 Speaker 00 It's also gonna smell.
9:10 Speaker 01 It's gonna smell like onion.
9:11 Speaker 00 It smell like onion.
9:12 Speaker 01 You know, I mean, at least he didn't like have it mixed with the shrimp, you know, when they flip the shrimp at you and have you open your mouth. He tries to hit you in the mouth with the shrimp. At least he didn't try to hit her in the mouth with the ring or something like that.
9:23 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, it is out of the box for sure. They planned on getting married on a beach in Latvia on August 15th, 2015. However, their relationship wasn't as happy as it seemed at first glance. And man, how many times have we said something like that?
9:43 Speaker 01 Many.
9:44 Speaker 00 You know, a lot of people who probably knew them thought, oh, they're so cute together. They, they got the perfect relationship. Meanwhile, not so perfect. And I, and I think, you know, a lot of people can put on that front, right? When they're out with friends or they're with their family, you're not going to be bickering all the time. But when you're alone, things might not be as good as people think they are.
10:14 Speaker 01 I think there's a lot of people that get in the car after a night out and it's the longest drive they've ever had to get home. Because it's not a loving ride home.
10:25 Speaker 00 Hmm. Okay. Is that coming from experience or you're just?
10:29 Speaker 01 I'm just throwing it out there as maybe some.
10:31 Speaker 00 Some people have.
10:32 Speaker 01 Experienced. Yeah.
10:34 Speaker 00 Vincent's sister Laura Wright said there was friction in the relationship and Angelica had a temper. Vincent was frustrated that she wasn't working. He called off the engagement, but continued supporting her. Laura believed he was close to ending the relationship.
10:50 Speaker 01 That sounds like to me he probably was, right? Um, I don't want to marry you, but I'll keep supporting you for now is how I'm thinking it probably went.
11:00 Speaker 00 But how long can that continue?
11:03 Speaker 01 Or how long should it continue?
11:05 Speaker 00 Yeah. Vincent's friend Sheri also said that Angelica could be violent with Vincent when she was drunk. She would slap him in the face repeatedly.
11:17 Speaker 01 That's where you gotta draw a line in the sand, I think. Like, hey, um, I'm not really into this slapping me in the face consistently.
11:26 Speaker 00 No, some people pay good money for that, but most people do not like that. And, you know, maybe that had a little something to do with him calling off the engagement. Two weeks before he died, Vincent texted his former roommate Amanda Hoistert and expressed doubts about his relationship with Angelica, but he changed his mind the next day. I'm also getting this vibe, Gibbs, that he's a little bit unsure.
11:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:57 Speaker 00 You know, he's seeing maybe what you would consider red flags, but at the same time, he's probably very in love with this person.
12:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. And he's having a hard time reconciling everything.
12:11 Speaker 00 And figuring out what does he really want to do?
12:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:14 Speaker 00 Right? Because sometimes there's a battle between the head and the heart.
12:18 Speaker 01 For sure.
12:18 Speaker 00 The head knows that something's not right.
12:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:21 Speaker 00 But the heart knows that it wants what it wants.
12:25 Speaker 01 Exactly. And then you have that other thing arguing with you too.
12:28 Speaker 00 I have no idea what you're talking about. On April 18th, 2015, Vincent and Angelica went to a party with friends. Vincent wanted to stay out and have more drinks, but Angelica wanted to go home. Before they left, Vincent mentioned that he wanted to go kayaking to a friend. His friend told him he shouldn't go because the water was choppy and cold, but Vincent couldn't be talked out of it.
12:53 Speaker 01 Love a good kayaking afternoon.
12:56 Speaker 00 How often have you gone kayaking?
12:58 Speaker 01 Frequently.
12:59 Speaker 00 Okay, I have done it a couple of times.
13:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:03 Speaker 00 It is much harder than people make it look. My arms were like burning.
13:09 Speaker 01 Very sore.
13:09 Speaker 00 Yeah, but by the time I got back, was wishing I had like a little bitty motor on the back just to get me back to the dock.
13:17 Speaker 01 You can get those, you just have to ask for them.
13:19 Speaker 00 On Sunday, April 19th, Angelica and Vincent decided to kayak across the Hudson to Bannerman's Island. Bannerman's Island is part of the state park system. The couple wanted to go to the ruins of Bannerman's Castle, which was built in the early 20th century. Angelica was very familiar with the island because she had been volunteering in the gardens since 2012. The executive director of the Bannerman Castle Trust told the New York Times that Angelica and Vincent should not have been on the island by themselves because the ruins are considered hazardous.
13:56 Speaker 01 Well, I'm guessing she figures she knew enough about it since she volunteered on the island.
14:00 Speaker 00 And was out there frequently, but you know, the Hudson River was around 48 degrees that day. It was also supposed to rain, but despite all that, the couple launched their kayaks just after 4:00 PM. They brought beer with them for the trip.
14:17 Speaker 01 Beer and rowing, I don't know.
14:20 Speaker 00 Well, you know, somebody said, hey, you probably shouldn't go. The water's choppy, it's cold. I like the water, fresh water. I don't like the ocean. We've talked about that a lot.
14:31 Speaker 01 Right.
14:31 Speaker 00 You know what I don't like? 48 degree water.
14:34 Speaker 01 No, it's not going to be fun if you tip into it.
14:38 Speaker 00 But they made it to Bannerman's Castle where Angelica changed into something sexy for photographs per 48 hours.
14:48 Speaker 01 Well, you know, when I kayak, I always like to bring a change of clothes. So when I get to my destination, I can change into something.
14:56 Speaker 00 Sexy?
14:56 Speaker 01 Sexy.
14:57 Speaker 00 If you're feeling sexy?
14:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:00 Speaker 00 I get it though. I mean, you know, maybe they're trying to be romantic. They're obviously probably pretty secluded. Can't imagine there's too many other people out there.
15:11 Speaker 01 Trying to spice it up a little bit.
15:13 Speaker 00 But you know, it's cold, it's windy. It doesn't seem like the time to kayak. It certainly doesn't seem like sexy time. But they decided to head home around 7:00 PM. According to Angelica, Vincent was not wearing a life jacket during their trip. And the waters turned rough on their way back. But she also said that Vincent seemed to be enjoying it. And told her, babe, this is an adventure of a lifetime. Around 7:30 PM, Angelica called 911 to report that Vincent's kayak had capsized. And he was struggling to stay above water. She said in her 911 call per 48 hours, I'm in the Hudson River.
15:58 Speaker 00 My fiance fell in the water. Can you please call anybody? I can't get to him. It's very windy and the waves are coming in. And I can't paddle to him. He's getting further and further away from me. He's gonna drown. At one point, she said she could still see Vincent's head. But then she told the operator she couldn't see him anymore. Angelica later told 2020 that one of her last mental images of Vincent was his head and arm sticking out of the water, pushing his paddle towards her and asking her to call 911.
16:33 Speaker 01 How devastating would that be to experience that, to see that happening to someone you love?
16:39 Speaker 00 Nightmarish. You know, if this is the way that it really went down. Now, obviously, there's going to be an argument about that. But let's just say it did go down this way. You saw your loved one in a very dangerous situation and there was nothing you could do.
16:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:59 Speaker 00 To help them.
17:00 Speaker 01 You're helpless.
17:01 Speaker 00 A boat from the Cornwall Yacht Club was sent out to rescue them. Angelica was pulled out of the water. Both kayaks were recovered, but Vincent was not found.
17:13 Speaker 00 People soon noticed that Angelica seemed unaffected by what happened to her fiance. She called Vincent's friend Sherri Partey. On April 20th, Angelica said Vincent was missing and Sherri thought she was oddly calm. While divers were searching the Hudson for Vincent, Angelica posted a video of herself doing cartwheels on Facebook in an old picture of herself kayaking in bad weather.
17:41 Speaker 01 Okay, that's strange right there.
17:43 Speaker 00 Well, you know, how many of those kind of interrogation room videos have you seen? Where people are doing or acting in a way that just doesn't fit with the situation that they're in. Jodi Arias comes to mind.
18:02 Speaker 01 Sure, yeah.
18:03 Speaker 00 And there's, there's so many of them that, that kind of leap into my head where people are singing or they're, they're doing something that doesn't fit with the situation.
18:16 Speaker 01 I mean, she should know at that point, right? She saw her fiance struggling, most likely drowned and dead, just haven't recovered the body yet. I don't know how you could be doing cartwheels and posting photos and things like that.
18:32 Speaker 00 Well, Angelica's friend Joel Goss told 48 Hours that she was trying to put on a happy, brave face and keep hope that Vincent would be found. And I get that, that's something that you want to do. It just doesn't seem in line with what we just talked about. Angelica did an interview with News 12 Westchester on April 23rd and recounted her fiance's final moments. She said, "I saw him struggling a little bit. He was trying to figure out how to paddle the waves and then I just saw him flip right in front of me. He kept like watching me and I kept watching him. She remembered calling out to him, just hold on, just hold on. Vincent told her, I don't think I'm going to make it."
19:17 Speaker 00 Again, if that's how it happened, that would be a horrifying sight.
19:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, heartbreaking.
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21:33 Speaker 00 so you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. On April 29th, 2015, Angelica returned to Bannerman's Island to place flowers for Vincent. The police showed up to ask her questions and she agreed to come with them to the station. Her interrogation lasted about 11 hours.
22:16 Speaker 01 It's a long time.
22:17 Speaker 00 It's a very long time. That's like your flight to Greece.
22:22 Speaker 01 Close to.
22:22 Speaker 00 Imagine being interrogated for that whole flight. Probably not much worse than what you actually experienced. Being wedged in among a group of people.
22:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
22:35 Speaker 00 She told investigators that Vincent got drunk on the night of April 18th. They argued but made up before they fell asleep. On April 19th, Vincent was determined to go kayak. This was something they did every spring. She said that Vincent packed their gear. She had a life vest, but he didn't take one for himself. I get it. You know, some people are very adamant about wearing life vests. Some people don't think it's all that necessary. It's kind of like seat belts, right?
23:07 Speaker 01 Right.
23:08 Speaker 00 Some people are, won't even pull out without their seatbelt on. Some people don't ever wear, even though they know they should.
23:16 Speaker 01 It's true. I don't like to wear mine.
23:18 Speaker 00 Life jacket or seatbelt?
23:20 Speaker 01 Both.
23:21 Speaker 00 All right.
23:22 Speaker 01 But eventually I'll put the seatbelt on because I get tired of hearing the ding.
23:25 Speaker 00 The ding, but that's the only reason you put it on. Angelica said she knew Vincent's kayak was missing its drain plug. The kayak was working fine on their way to the island, but on the way back, she saw his kayak start to fill up. According to 48 Hours, she said, and I knew that the plug wasn't there. Okay. So now we're starting to get into kind of the, the area where police are suspecting her.
23:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:55 Speaker 00 You know, if you knew that the drain plug was missing, why in the world would you set off?
24:03 Speaker 00 Or allow him to even get in the kayak. I don't know much about drain plugs on kayaks. I know a lot about them on boats. The one thing you don't want to do in a boat is go out on the water without the drain plug.
24:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:18 Speaker 00 Cause you're gonna end up at the bottom real quickly.
24:21 Speaker 01 Keep that drain plug in where it needs to be.
24:24 Speaker 00 But it's so weird, right? Her saying, I knew it was missing. What she doesn't elaborate on is I told Vincent this, or I said, hey, you better get your drain plug.
24:36 Speaker 01 Right.
24:37 Speaker 00 Doesn't elaborate on any of that part. Vincent was suddenly in the water and was holding on to his seat cushion, which acted as a float, as well as his kayak and a dry bag. Angelica took his paddle and hooked it to her kayak. She told detectives in her interview, he's in the water. I have both paddles and the waves are pulling me away from him further and further. And that's when he yells, call 911. Now I'm already spotting one discrepancy because we said she told one of the outlets, he had the paddle in his hand.
25:16 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:17 Speaker 00 So that seems strange.
25:19 Speaker 01 Cause now she has both paddles.
25:21 Speaker 00 Angelica expressed her frustration with the relationship and her desire to end things. She said Vincent pressured her to do sexual things she wasn't comfortable with, like participating in threesomes. She also admitted that she felt trapped and sometimes wished Vincent was dead. An investigator asked her why she wanted him to die and she said, I wanted to be free.
25:47 Speaker 01 It's such a weird statement to make during questioning.
25:52 Speaker 00 Well, if there was a list of things not to say during an interrogation, these would be, you know, near the top.
26:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:00 Speaker 00 There were times that, uh, you know, I wished him dead. I wanted to be free of him. I mean, when someone is already suspicious of you, saying things like this is not going to help that out.
26:14 Speaker 01 Not at all.
26:16 Speaker 00 When the investigators asked what was going through her mind while watching Vincent struggle, Angelica said, as quoted by the New York Times, "I'm like ripping in two halves. You know, angels and demons. The demon side, it's not a good side. And that side was telling me, this is gonna happen. Let it happen. Just let it. But the good was, save him, save him, save him. You're strong." The detective asked why the demon side won. Angelica answered, "Well, cuz of the way he was treating me, you know."
26:50 Speaker 01 Wow. So this is interesting that she's laying this out like that.
26:55 Speaker 00 Well, number one, she's talking way too much. You know, she is digging a hole. Now, she might not have thought she was, but to me, this is, you know, what she's saying is very damning stuff. And this is why, obviously, an attorney would have said, "Hey, don't answer that, or don't, don't say these things." Angelica contradicted herself throughout the interview. She admitted that she sometimes wanted Vincent gone, but said at another point, "I didn't want to kill him," or anything like that. She did say she wanted him gone, but added, "I didn't want him like, gone, gone."
27:35 Speaker 01 Just gone.
27:36 Speaker 00 Just a little bit gone.
27:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:38 Speaker 00 She was asked why Vincent didn't have the drain plug. Angelica said, "He didn't have it because I guess I had it."
27:45 Speaker 01 I'm sure whenever she did get an attorney, the attorney was like, "What the hell?"
27:53 Speaker 00 Were you thinking?
27:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:55 Speaker 00 Why did you say any of this?
27:56 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:57 Speaker 00 So, you know, going back to what we said earlier, he does, she knew he didn't have the drain plug, but she didn't tell him that. And when asked why he didn't have it, she said, "Well, I guess because I had it." So what does that mean? You took it out on purpose? I mean, what is, what is, what are the authorities supposed to make of that?
28:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, you, you knew he didn't have it. You knew you had it, but you didn't say anything to him. So...
28:25 Speaker 00 What'd you think was gonna happen?
28:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:28 Speaker 00 The investigator asked if she intentionally took it out because she wanted to be free. She answered, "Could be."
28:36 Speaker 01 Could be. Okay, that well, that definitely was not a no. So anything but a no is not the right answer.
28:44 Speaker 00 She also noted that she removed the plug months before their kayaking trip when her kitten was playing with it at home.
28:52 Speaker 01 So she knew back then it didn't have the plug in it.
28:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I, you know, you can infer that she knew when they were getting ready for the trip. She knew when they launched the kayaks that the drain plug wasn't there. The detective asked, when you watched him in the water, was a part of you saying, my worries are going away now. Were you almost, and then he paused, and Angelica filled in the word euphoric.
29:22 Speaker 01 Wow.
29:23 Speaker 00 I mean, this is like how to get yourself in trouble, charged, convicted 101. You're saying almost in every instance, the, the worst possible thing you could say.
29:36 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
29:37 Speaker 00 And I'm with you. Once an attorney does get involved, they would just be flabbergasted.
29:42 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure.
29:44 Speaker 00 I mean, you have left me with literally nothing to work with.
29:49 Speaker 01 They'd be like at the office the next day, like, so how that case, how's that case going? You're not going to believe this. Let me tell you what she said at the interview that I have to work with.
29:59 Speaker 00 Angelica was told she watched her fiance drown. She responded, I didn't just watch him drown. I tried to do something about it. Angelica started to agree with what the police were asking her. Most likely because she wanted to go home. She said at one point, all right, I'll give you a fucking statement. She said, I wanted him dead and now he's gone and I'm okay with it.
30:24 Speaker 01 She just doesn't know how to stop.
30:27 Speaker 00 Now, is she later on going to say, I said these things because I was there for 11 hours.
30:33 Speaker 01 Sure.
30:34 Speaker 00 I was tired. I wanted to get the heck out of there. So I just started telling them whatever they wanted to hear. 11 hours is a long time.
30:42 Speaker 01 It is a long time and we know people will confess to some things.
30:47 Speaker 00 That they didn't do.
30:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:50 Speaker 00 Just to get out of that room.
30:51 Speaker 01 Exactly.
30:52 Speaker 00 Now, she is saying a lot of things.
30:53 Speaker 01 She is.
30:54 Speaker 00 Angelica was charged with murder on April 30th, 2017. Prosecutor said she intentionally killed Vincent and told misleading stories. And I don't know how they couldn't charge her, right? Based on the things that she said in the interrogation. Hours after she was arrested, News 12 Westchester reported that Angelica said the police found her diary, where she wrote that Vincent wanted to have a threesome and she wished he were dead. She told the outlet, she wrote this when she was angry and didn't actually mean it.
31:30 Speaker 01 That's possible, you know, I mean, there's times when people get really mad at somebody. And, you know, they're like, oh, I just wish you were dead.
31:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, and especially I think when you think about a journal or a diary, you know, you're writing things that you're not expecting anyone else to read.
31:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, at the heat of the moment too, a lot of times is when you're writing it, when you're really frustrated with somebody.
31:53 Speaker 00 So I get that. It doesn't mean as much to me as her saying, I wanted him dead and now he's gone and I'm okay with it.
32:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's not good.
32:04 Speaker 00 Cause she's saying that after she knows he's
32:07 Speaker 01 Dead.
32:08 Speaker 00 Or at least missing, gone and missing, presumed dead. At Angelica's bail hearing in May 2015, prosecutors quoted her as saying that she tampered with Vincent's kayak and that it felt good knowing he was going to die. They also said that she was aware, she was the beneficiary of two life insurance policies and stood to gain $250,000. She talked about what she could do with the money.
32:38 Speaker 01 Which is always strange, right? If you're talking about, oh, I got $250,000 coming to me, I'm gonna do this and that. Shouldn't you be grieving right now?
32:47 Speaker 00 Well, it also answers the question of motive. Because without the life insurance, what does she stand to gain? They weren't married.
32:58 Speaker 01 No, just getting out of the relationship that she didn't want to be in anymore.
33:03 Speaker 00 Which she could have easily done just by leaving.
33:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:07 Speaker 00 You don't need to kill somebody to get out of a relationship when you're not married. You actually don't need to when you are married. Although it seems like a lot of people think you do.
33:17 Speaker 01 Exactly.
33:18 Speaker 00 Based on the stories that we cover.
33:21 Speaker 01 We've covered enough of them.
33:23 Speaker 00 But $250,000 is a boatload of money. Not to use a pun, because we happen to be talking about a kayaking incident, but it's a ton of money. And it's definitely a motive for murder. Hell, we've seen people kill for a heck of a lot less. Angelica said Vincent's boat capsized at 7:15 PM. But she didn't call 911 until 7:40. Prosecutors alleged she intentionally capsized her own kayak to make it look like she tried to save him.
33:58 Speaker 01 Well, that's a long time not calling 911. You know, when you're in the water, cold water, you see someone struggling. The longer they struggle, you know, they're not going to be able to make it. You can only tread water and struggle so long before eventually you run out of energy.
34:17 Speaker 00 Well, and time is of the essence.
34:19 Speaker 01 Sure it is.
34:20 Speaker 00 Assuming she could have called at 7:15, then that is a long time. At a news conference, Angelica's attorney, Richard Pirtali, said the prosecution's jump from pointing out inconsistencies in statements to claiming they had a confession was a really big difference. He attributed some of the prosecutor's claims to a language barrier, noting that Angelica still struggled with English.
34:52 Speaker 01 Wasn't she studying to be a English tutor?
34:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, but she was from another country. Now, when you listen or, you know, watch, hear the videos of her being questioned.
35:07 Speaker 00 You know, she speaks pretty good English, but you can tell she's from another country. But like we've often said, right? People in these other countries gives, they speak better English than a lot of people here in the US.
35:21 Speaker 01 Why are you pointing at me?
35:22 Speaker 00 One of whom I'm looking at right now. Her attorney also noted that the kayak plug was in the couple's apartment. And had been removed sometime before Vincent's death. He maintained that Vincent's death was an accident. And Angelica's statements in her interview were coerced.
35:40 Speaker 01 Which can happen.
35:42 Speaker 00 They can happen. And it would have to be coercion, right? For her to have any chance. Because the statements she made were so damning. I knew the plug wasn't there. I wanted him dead. I'm happy he's gone.
35:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:00 Speaker 00 I mean, any jury is going to take those statements and there's no getting out of it.
36:07 Speaker 01 No.
36:07 Speaker 00 Around this time, news outlets reported that a man's body was found in the Hudson, but it was not Vincent.
36:14 Speaker 01 I mean, it is the Hudson. A lot of things are found in that river.
36:18 Speaker 00 It's a pretty big body of water.
36:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:20 Speaker 00 On May 23rd, 2015, a body was found in the Hudson near West Point, about a mile downstream from Bannerman's Island. Deputies were posted on the river guarding the graduation ceremony when they were flagged down by boaters. The following day, the body was identified as Vincent V. Ford. So it was about a month later before his body was found and identified. Prosecutors held a news conference on May 26th and disclosed new details after Angelica was indicted for second degree murder and second degree manslaughter.
37:01 Speaker 00 They said that Vincent reached for his paddle while he was struggling in the water, but Angelica moved it away.
37:08 Speaker 01 Okay, that's a problem, right? You know, here, you want this? You want this paddle? Come get it, come, oh, you didn't get it.
37:15 Speaker 00 But how do they know that?
37:16 Speaker 01 That's, that's the interesting thing, right? I mean, only person out there was her.
37:21 Speaker 00 And him.
37:22 Speaker 01 So he's not able to tell that story. So they got to assume that that's how it went down.
37:27 Speaker 00 Or they got that from her. Now, she did say at one time she had both paddles. She said at another time, he had one of the paddles. According to prosecutors, Angelica set out to kill Vincent by removing the plug from his kayak. So it would fill with water. She also tampered with his paddle by removing a connector ring. When Vincent went into the water, she took the paddle away. So he couldn't use it as a flotation device.
37:57 Speaker 01 I mean, if that's how it went down, can you imagine being him at that moment? Just looking at her going, son of a.
38:04 Speaker 00 How could you do this to me? I, I know the relationship was rocky, but this is still, you know, a couple who at one time cared about each other. They were engaged. So I, I think when you go out with somebody like that, even if the relationship is not the greatest at that point in time, the last thing you're expecting is for them to do something like this.
38:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, especially it just before they got back in the boats. They were having a little, you know, sexy time, it sounded like.
38:35 Speaker 00 Maybe, or, or at one point she was wearing lingerie.
38:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, she was wearing sexy stuff, you know? So do you do that for somebody that you don't really want to be with anymore? Like, I don't know.
38:48 Speaker 00 Well, maybe you do if it's part of this grand plan. Vincent's autopsy report was released in September, 2015. His cause of death was drowning. His blood alcohol content was listed as point zero six six. So, I mean, that's not, that's not super high.
39:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:09 Speaker 00 I mean, it's a few drinks, maybe three drinks.
39:13 Speaker 01 I mean, they did take beer with them.
39:15 Speaker 00 For a person, I don't know how much he weighed, but for a person who weighs about 180 to 200, when I looked it up, it said that was about three drinks.
39:23 Speaker 01 Yeah. Afternoon kayaking to have three beers? That's not out of the ordinary, I wouldn't think.
39:30 Speaker 00 His manner of death was homicide caused by a kayak drain plug intentionally removed by other, and that is a very specific manner of death.
39:42 Speaker 01 It is to list it like that.
39:44 Speaker 00 And there's no way that a coroner or someone, a medical examiner could know that unless they were taking it from, you know, what she had said. Angelica's lawyer, Richard Portale, told the New York Times, clearly the Orange County medical examiner failed to conduct any meaningful investigation of her own and relied on false information provided by the New York State Police. She ruled this a homicide without a scintilla of medical evidence. And that's a great word, scintilla.
40:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I haven't used that in a while.
40:19 Speaker 00 I know it's one of your go-tos or has been in the past.
40:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, but he makes a good point.
40:25 Speaker 00 Well, it does seem as though at least that part, right, is is based off of information that she shared or information that, you know, the medical examiner got from the police. Now, the cause of death being drowning, I think that's scientific. You can do that scientifically, but ruling it a homicide, you know, drowning is one of those that it can be very tough, I think, to rule.
40:56 Speaker 01 I just feel like her statements really did some damage to her.
41:00 Speaker 00 A ton of damage.
41:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:02 Speaker 00 Because think about it this way, take all of those statements out. Let's say she goes in there and says, this was just a horrible accident. I don't, I don't know how it happened. I don't know what happened. Could they even charge her? I think it'd be a lot tougher.
41:18 Speaker 01 I think it'd be really tough.
41:23 Speaker 00 Angelica's interview with ABC's 2020 aired in November 2015. She said she loved Vincent and didn't do anything to kill him. She also said about her interrogation, they kept asking me the same questions like 100 times. I knew that I was innocent and I told them what they wanted to hear. I was at my breaking point.
41:45 Speaker 01 Which we know again can happen. We've talked about it, right? People can only withstand so much before they give in and will basically say or admit to anything.
41:58 Speaker 00 Well, some people, some people, not, not everyone.
42:01 Speaker 01 No.
42:02 Speaker 00 A lot of people who are innocent are never going to say they're guilty, but some people do. She also clarified her statement that she wanted to be free, saying, I wanted to be free of the lifestyle we had, the nightlife, the strip clubs, the threesomes. I wanted to be free from that. They told me it was going to be like a therapy session and they might've said that.
42:24 Speaker 01 Cause they can, they can say whatever they want to get you to talk to them.
42:28 Speaker 00 At Angelica's June 2016 pre-trial hearing, a detective testified that she admitted she took Vincent's paddle when he was in the water after he capsized and was holding on to his kayak and dry back. He asked her to call 911, but she kind of reached over and took his paddle from him and strapped it onto her kayak. She made this statement during a walk on the island before she was taken in for questioning. She also admitted that she removed the drain plug and tampered with his paddle. While on the island, Angelica said she wanted to be free. She felt trapped in her relationship. So this is interesting because this is not the 11 hour interrogation.
43:13 Speaker 01 This is fresh.
43:14 Speaker 00 This is before that. And she's admitting to some of these things.
43:19 Speaker 01 Which makes it even worse.
43:21 Speaker 00 It it makes it hard to say, you know, I was coerced. I felt like I just had to get out of that room because this wasn't happening in the room. While awaiting trial, Angelica's defense team hired forensic scientist Michael Archer, who spent months examining the evidence. In his interview with 48 Hours, Archer noted that the water was frigid. It was getting dark. It was windy and the waves were three to five feet hot. Again, going back to my statement of it doesn't seem like the right time to be kayaking.
43:57 Speaker 01 It it really doesn't. I don't even think, I think at one point she said he said something like, this is a a dream day.
44:06 Speaker 00 Yeah. Great day or best day of my life or whatever he said. Now that's coming from her, obviously. Vincent had no life vest on and he had some level of impairment by alcohol. Archer believed it was an accidental death. He conducted experiments in an effort to disprove the prosecution's theory. He had a person paddle the same route in the same model kayak with the drain plug out. It's important to note that with the model of kayak Vincent was using, the drain plug was on the top of the kayak, not the bottom. So that that does make a big difference.
44:45 Speaker 01 Does.
44:45 Speaker 00 Now, it doesn't mean that with, you know, these three to five foot waves, eventually water couldn't fill up if it's lapping over the side of the kayak. But if the drain plug was on the bottom, it would happen very, very quickly. Although the experiment took place in calmer waters, the kayaker didn't notice any water getting in through the small hole where the drain plug should have been. And and I get that. The the problem is you're in calm waters. The experiment is not happening in the exact same environment.
45:22 Speaker 00 So I don't know what to make of that.
45:24 Speaker 01 It's really not apples to apples at all.
45:26 Speaker 00 Archer thought water got into the kayak's cockpit where the paddler sits, which caused it to capsize. He performed an experiment where he hooked the kayak to the back of a boat and created an artificial wave. He made sure the drain plug was out and the cockpit was open. The cockpit was partially filled with water from just one wave. He then did a test where he sealed the cockpit, but kept the drain plug open and poured water over the kayak. Only a few ounces of water got inside. Okay, I could see where a test like that may have some validity with, with the jury. You know, if you're, if you're being a little more scientific with it,
46:12 Speaker 00 you're doing these type of tests. You're trying to recreate the waves. And now he's even pouring water right over the, the hole and it's just not filling up. Archer also had an assistant paddle the route with the connector ring removed and the assistant had no issue.
46:32 Speaker 01 Definitely poking some holes in the prosecution's theory.
46:37 Speaker 00 Finally, the prosecution alleged that Angelica took Vincent's paddle. So he had nothing to hold on to. Archer taped a four pound brick to the paddle and watched it sink, which meant it wouldn't have supported Vincent's weight if he was attempting to use it as a flotation device.
46:56 Speaker 01 Well, that's a good point to make.
46:58 Speaker 00 Other experts also told the New York Times that removing the small drain plug would not have caused the kayak to fill with water, but waves splashing into the cockpit would have made it unstable.
47:11 Speaker 01 I would agree with that.
47:12 Speaker 00 As an expert?
47:13 Speaker 01 As a.
47:17 Speaker 00 You're making yourself sound like you're an expert, but I get it. It is making some sense. You know, is it more likely that these waves filled the drain plug? And that's what caused the kayak to sink? Or is it more likely that the waves got in the cockpit? The part where you sit? And that's what caused it to capsize?
47:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:43 Speaker 00 On July 24th, 2017, Angelica pleaded guilty to criminally negligent homicide just a few weeks before her trial. She acknowledged that she took the plug from the kayak and was aware of the rough weather conditions in the river, but she didn't intend to kill Vincent. Now, the removal of the drain plug, does it mean less when all these experts are saying it wouldn't have made a difference?
48:11 Speaker 01 I don't think so, because I don't think she knew that.
48:16 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's more about maybe intent.
48:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:20 Speaker 00 Than knowledge. Now, the part that she knew the, the conditions, the weather conditions were rough. Well, so did he. He was there.
48:30 Speaker 01 Right.
48:31 Speaker 00 He would have known as well. DA David Hoofler said in a press conference, as quoted by the New York Times, "There's little direct precedent, if any, in New York for a homicide conviction for removing a plug from a kayak. There was a multitude of evidence in this case that could go both ways." And that makes a ton of sense to me. I, I, I don't know how many cases would involve people move, removing a drain plug from a kayak. And there really wasn't much physical evidence at all. You know, this case was mainly based on Angelica's statements. Hoofler acknowledged that she sometimes contradicted herself
49:16 Speaker 00 and none of the defendant's vacillating statements constituted a direct confession for intentional murder.
49:24 Speaker 01 Vacillating, it's a good word for that.
49:26 Speaker 00 Like scintilla. And maybe that's how you get to the guilty plea of criminally negligent homicide. Hoover also said, everyone wants more, but in this case, we had to make sure there was a certain outcome and that somebody was held responsible. And that's what we did. There was a very good chance that if this case went to trial, you don't know what a jury was going to do. And I'll be honest with you. I don't know what I would have done with the evidence if I was a juror. You have some real damning statements.
50:03 Speaker 01 You do.
50:04 Speaker 00 But the physical evidence doesn't seem to really back up the statements. Now she might've thought she was going to do something by removing this drain plug, but all the experts said that wasn't going to do anything anyway.
50:22 Speaker 01 I think there would have been some healthy conversations in that jury room.
50:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. On November 8th, 2017, Angelica was sentenced to 16 months to four years in jail with credit for two and a half years already served. Her lawyers distributed her written statement to the media. It read, "Never would I have imagined waking up one day and finding myself behind bars charged with murdering the man I love. This entire process has been incredibly difficult for me. I love Vince very much and miss him terribly. When we went kayaking that day, my intention was for both of us to come home. I am not a murderer. I've said that from the beginning. If I could do anything to bring Vince back,
51:08 Speaker 00 I would." Angelica was released from prison on December 21st, 2017. She faced 16 months of parole and potential deportation to Latvia. Her lawyer, Richard Portale, told the media outside the courthouse, "Angelica is so grateful to be here today. She's grateful for this day. She's excited to be able to reconnect with her family in a meaningful way. She plans to FaceTime her family as soon as we can. She's going to take a deep breath of fresh air and then enjoy a nice steak." After she was released, Angelica told 2020 that she agreed to the plea deal to avoid the risk of a life sentence for a crime she didn't commit. They said, "Take the plea
51:53 Speaker 00 and get out in December." I went that way because everything is taken as a package. She also said she didn't feel guilty. "I have to let it go. I can't live with that all the time. I have to let it go."
52:08 Speaker 01 I definitely think she made a good deal.
52:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're taking a chance, right?
52:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:14 Speaker 00 Going to trial. Do you want to risk a potential life sentence when you kind of have this other finite set amount of time?
52:27 Speaker 01 Right.
52:27 Speaker 00 Now, you have to agree to something that you're saying you didn't do, but the alternative, it's really hard to take a chance on that.
52:35 Speaker 01 Especially with what she had said.
52:38 Speaker 00 Yes. If she hadn't have said any of that stuff, I don't think she, she has an issue.
52:44 Speaker 01 Right.
52:45 Speaker 00 Regardless of what she did, or what she wanted to happen, or what she thought was gonna happen.
52:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:50 Speaker 00 Her own words are really what put her in the, the position she found herself in.
52:56 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
52:57 Speaker 00 Richard Portali told 2020 that Vincent was also responsible, saying, "I'm not here to blame Mr. Viafor for his own death, but the truth is, he wasn't wearing a life vest. He wasn't wearing a wetsuit. He didn't have a spray skirt, which would have kept the water out of that cockpit. He knew the plug was out. He knew the waves were high. He knew all of these things. And Ms. Graswald is not his mother. You know, he's a grown man, and that's really his responsibility." Now, that's kind of rough to say, but there is some truth in it. I don't know if he knew the drain plug was there or not, but he knew he wasn't wearing a life jacket.
53:40 Speaker 01 That he did know.
53:41 Speaker 00 He knew he didn't have that skirt that you see sometimes around the cockpit.
53:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, to keep the water out.
53:47 Speaker 00 Keeps, that keeps the water out. Now, maybe he didn't have one.
53:52 Speaker 01 Or didn't want one.
53:53 Speaker 00 Or didn't want one. Vincent's family went to court to prevent Angelica from getting his life insurance money. She said she didn't want the money for herself. She wanted to use it to pay her legal fees. I can understand why her family wouldn't want her to have any of it.
54:10 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
54:11 Speaker 00 Angelica reached a settlement with the family in August 2018. The terms of the settlement are confidential. She agreed not to pursue an appeal. And the family agreed not to bring a wrongful death claim against her.
54:26 Speaker 01 Good deal for her.
54:27 Speaker 00 According to a family lawyer, under three different policies, Angelica was to receive between $500,000 and $600,000. So we originally talked about a $250,000 policy. Now we found out that apparently there were three different policies and it could have been as much as $600,000. 250 is a motive for murder.
54:56 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
54:57 Speaker 00 $600,000 isn't even bigger.
55:01 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
55:01 Speaker 00 Motive for murder.
55:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure.
55:03 Speaker 00 But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, I think why people get so interested in a case like this is because there are quite a few questions unanswered. You start out with the statements that Angelica made. She sounds guilty as hell.
55:22 Speaker 01 She does.
55:24 Speaker 00 And then you get to some of the, the scientific testing and your mind starts to change a little bit.
55:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:32 Speaker 00 As to what effect the removal of this drain plug would have had. Now, could she have done something else to affect his drowning? Like we said before, there's, there was only two people there.
55:47 Speaker 01 Right.
55:48 Speaker 00 And only one of them can tell their side of events.
55:52 Speaker 01 But I mean, they did make it sound like the drain plug really wasn't an issue and they made it sound like even if he had the paddle, he couldn't have used it.
56:01 Speaker 00 Many people feel that justice wasn't served and Angelica should have been convicted of murder while others believe that Vincent's death was a tragic accident. And I can see people being split on a case like this. You can make a case for each. Now, what is hard to figure out is why she would make the statements that she made that were so incriminating.
56:26 Speaker 01 Not good.
56:27 Speaker 00 Now, was it because she had just been there so long and she eventually, you know, wanted to get out? But then you have to explain why she made some of the statements she made while they were still on the island, walking.
56:40 Speaker 01 Maybe it was her lack of English, according to her defense attorney.
56:45 Speaker 00 Well, they did make that claim. I don't know if I'm buying that one as much. And this whole idea of wanting to be free from the relationship. You know, I don't really understand that in the context of wanting someone dead because, you know, like we talked about, they weren't married.
57:05 Speaker 01 Well, he called off the engagement.
57:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, so not being married, she could have just walked away. But what would she have missed out on? It would have been the financial support.
57:16 Speaker 01 Sure.
57:17 Speaker 00 That she was getting from Vincent. So is that where the, you know, half a million dollars or $600,000 in life insurance comes in? I can't just walk away because I'm not working and I'm kind of used to this being supported.
57:35 Speaker 01 But if he drowns, I've got all this money coming into me.
57:40 Speaker 00 So I think that's one way to look at it. The other way is to look at it as, you know, a tragic accident.
57:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:49 Speaker 00 And without her statements, that would probably be a pretty easy thing to do. It's her direct statements that really kind of snowballed everything against her.
58:01 Speaker 01 It really did. It's a prime example where you should call your attorney.
58:06 Speaker 00 Well, you know, I'll, I'll say this, if she did something to affect his death, as I'm sure Vincent's family believes she did, she got off extremely light with the plea deal.
58:21 Speaker 01 Sure she did.
58:22 Speaker 00 Now, if she had nothing to do with it, then, you know, she spent years in jail for something that she didn't do.
58:29 Speaker 01 But by her own admission, it sounds like she had something to do with it.
58:34 Speaker 00 At the very least, she wanted him dead.
58:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:37 Speaker 00 She was okay with him dying. And that's why I think a lot of people believe that she did have a hand in his death.
58:48 Speaker 01 If you're okay with someone dying, are you really trying to make the effort to save them? Is that why you wait as long as you did to call 911? It's like, maybe I wait a little bit, you're tired, you get tired, you're drowned, and then I call.
59:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
59:03 Speaker 01 You know?
59:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. But yeah, I, I, there's no reason for her to ever come out and say exactly what happened. You know, she's out.
59:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:14 Speaker 00 And I don't think anything else can happen to her, probably. But there's no reason to shed any light on the situation. So I think there are going to be some unanswered questions.
59:27 Speaker 01 If she calls you up and says, hey, heard the case, like to talk to you about it. What are you doing this weekend? Would you like to go kayaking with me as we talk about it? Would you say okay or no?
59:39 Speaker 00 No, but we can zoom. We can have a zoom call and you can explain it to me.
59:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm not getting anywhere near the water with you.
59:48 Speaker 00 No, absolutely not. That's it for our episode on Angelica Graswald. We got a voicemail, Gibbs, you want to check that out?
59:57 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
59:58 Speaker 02 Hi guys, Mike and Gibby. I can't believe I'm doing this. I've been binging you guys for a long time. My family finished the solved cases and now I'm halfway through the unsolved. I listen to you guys constantly. I know it's not probably healthy, but I take small breaks. But yeah, I love this podcast and I wanted to make a suggestion. I'm from east of Cleveland in a little town called Kirtland and that town had a serial killer, Jeffrey Lundgren.
1:00:38 Speaker 02 And I can remember being, I don't know, early twenties being in a bar and the recovery guys came in that had to dig up the bodies and they were volunteer firemen because it's a small little township and they were just haunted and just sick. So I don't think I'll forget all that. And so maybe if you have time for it, or I don't know if you've already done it, but I know that they did get caught. So just yeah, love you guys. Keep going and keep your own time ticking.
1:01:17 Speaker 00 All right. Appreciate the voicemail. I don't think we've done that one. I'd have to look it up. But if not, we'll put it on the list. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:01:30 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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