Triple Play: The Blood of Dawnwalker

Jason, Maddy, and Kirk talk about The Blood of Dawnwalker, a new vampire game from ex-Witcher 3 developers. They talk about the game's unique time system, the brutal story, and how it all compares to The Witcher 3.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  In theory, death and taxes are certain in life. But if you're a vampire, death is not certain. And the tax is blood. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, we talked about The Blood of Dawnwalker, an RPG set in medieval Europe with a vampire ruling class. You're a Dawnwalker, man by day, teleporting bloodsucker by night.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  I'm Maddy Myers.

• 0:31Jason Schreier?

  I'm Jason Schreier.

• 0:32Kirk Hamilton?

  And I'm Kirk Hamilton, and hello.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 0:36Jason Schreier?

  Welcome back to another episode. Guys, last week, I was on a family vacation to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, which is pretty cool, Amish country. And I found myself, I told the story on my YouTube channel, and I'll repeat it here for all the Triple Click.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 0:50Kirk Hamilton?

  We get your warmed over YouTube content. Thanks so much.

• 0:54Jason Schreier?

  I mean, everything I do is warmed over something or another. So I found, we found ourselves in this cool little thrift shop. I say little, but it's actually huge. And there are a bunch of different little rooms within it. And one of them had these retro games. And it was just like this stack of random ass PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 games and other just old Wii games and whatnot.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, that's awesome.

• 1:17Jason Schreier?

  And I just had this moment thinking that that won't be possible anymore from the PS6 era on, because like, discs are just, Sony is killing discs. And you just won't be able to walk into a thrift store and pick up discs anymore, which just made me a little bit sad, despite the fact that I buy all of my games on digital or get all my games on digital. I shouldn't say buy, because a lot of them come in for free. But like, still, it's, I just had a sad moment of like, I will no longer be able to go to a thrift store and just find old games 30 years from now. That's just really tragic.

• 1:51Speaker 00

  It is. It's really strange.

• 1:52Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm trying to think of how that might work in a digital world. But all I can really come up with is like a metaverse, you know, fake used store where you don't actually get games.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  You walk through a virtual Blockbuster.

• 2:03Kirk Hamilton?

  They're just cosmetics that you put up in your virtual house.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  But you're actually just wearing a VR helmet and you're like, trying to reach out and touch the games, but your fingers just go right through them.

• 2:13Jason Schreier?

  This is all so bleak.

• 2:14Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, right. That was the thing. I wanted to un-bleakify it some, but I got nothing.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Well, hey, you know, the digital world isn't all bad. And why do I say that? Because our podcast is a digital download. And you know what else is a digital download? Our bonus podcasts, which you can only get if you become a Maximum Fun member, which you can do by going to maximumfun.org/join. And then you can sign up and you can get our monthly bonus episodes. This month, it is a big one. It is a, it is a really, really meaty ep because it is all three of us discussing seasons four and five of The Sopranos, which in my case, I am watching for the very first time.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  You two have seen it before, but for me, I'm avoiding spoilers. I'm analyzing The Sopranos for the first time with you two. It's been a wonderful experience, and that is a mega ep. And of course, in the bonus feed, we've got our discussions of seasons one through three, and very eventually, we'll have season six, both halves in there. But we got a ton of other stuff in the bonus feed. We have all kinds of episodes about video games and movies and shows and our personal lives. And sometimes, we even do listener question episodes that are very specific in the bonus feed. And that is something that we're going to do next month. We are soliciting your dating advice questions

• 3:45Speaker 00

  for an episode that we're, we're tentatively calling Triple Kiss. I think we all, we all think that's funny enough to be what we call that.

• 3:52Jason Schreier?

  It's good. It's pretty good.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  It's pretty good. So send us your dating advice questions. They can be gaming related, I would say. They can be related to games and playing games with your partner or prospective partners, or just plain old dating advice. We're all happily married. How did we become so? We help you for the first time ever. So write in at, what is it? [email protected]. That's, that's where you'd write in to, great. I know our email address. I've said it before in my life.

• 4:24Jason Schreier?

  Put Triple Kiss in the email subjects, please, if you're writing in for that episode.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Please do. Please put Triple Kiss in the email subject line. So that's [email protected] for the email address there. Send us those.

• 4:38Jason Schreier?

  We should say, like, really, anything goes. If you want to ask us about kind of like your romantic, your love life advice, if you want to ask us about marriage, if you want to just kind of get really personal, share your stories, anything that you think would make for an interesting conversation, I would say.

• 4:54Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, that's, that's fair. I think it doesn't have to just be if you're, if you're single and dating.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Right on. Yeah, we're, we're open. We're, we'll see where this takes us. You tell us. You write in.

• 5:04Kirk Hamilton?

  It should be interesting.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  We'll find out what you send to us. And how would you, the listener, get access to that eventual episode? And hey, there's actually a really fast, frictionless way to support Triple Click specifically, which is maximumfun.org/jointripleclick. It is an even more user-friendly interface. So hey, try that URL if you want to be speedrunning supporting Triple Click. It works even better than the old one. But the old one's, the old one's good, too. So Kirk, you have something you want to tell the listeners about before we get started today.

• 5:40Kirk Hamilton?

  I do. I have a very exciting announcement. I am launching a new podcast. And that means that also, I have written new theme music for a new podcast, which you are probably hearing right now.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  That's the important part, is the new theme music.

• 5:59Kirk Hamilton?

  The new podcast I'm making is a books podcast called Definitely Fiction, and it is going to be a lot of fun.

• 6:14Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm making it with my good friend, Sam Parrish. And for our first book series, we are focusing on The Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold.

• 6:26Kirk Hamilton?

  It's a really good series. There's super fun books to talk about, and we are very excited about the show.

• 6:40Kirk Hamilton?

  So these books I have talked about in the past many times. They're a long-running series that Bujold wrote from 1986 to 2018. There are like 19 books or something. We're going to do 17 episodes, one every month. So we're front-loading. We have the first two episodes, and the first two books are up now. And we're running the next two, which we've already recorded midway through September, and then at the start of October. And after that, we'll be monthly. But we are going to be covering this whole series. We're doing like, long episodes that are deep dives into each book. These books are super awesome. I know some people out there have read them and have gotten in touch with me to say like, wow, I'd never even heard of these books, The Vorkosigan Saga, before you talked about them. And I'm so glad that I read them on your recommendation.

• 7:23Kirk Hamilton?

  They're just kind of one of those series that's a little less talked about. And that's why we both kind of thought it would be a great place to start, because it's never been adapted into a TV show or a movie. It isn't overdone. But it is an exceptionally good series that is really, really fun to talk about. So again, the show is called Definitely Fiction. We are making video episodes, because Sam lives in Portland. So he has been coming to my studio, and we record in person and have been shooting videos. So the podcast is on YouTube. It's on all of the podcast apps. You know, there's an audio version up on all of the apps. And also, there are video versions on Patreon. And we are launching a Patreon to fund this thing. That's the way that we are going to generate income from it.

• 8:05Kirk Hamilton?

  So we'll put links for all of that stuff down in the show notes. And I really hope that some people who are listening to this, check it out and check out these books. I'm going to give my pitch just very briefly. This is a sci-fi series. It's kind of an epic. I mean, it, it is like, over the course of 30 years. Unlike some sci-fi, these books are not actually a super heavy lift. It's not really dense and complicated. It's much more human and kind of character-based. These are just really characterful stories of politics and intrigue, of intergalactic espionage and adventure. Every book is super readable. They all just really go. But it grows more complex over time and kind of along with you as you read each book. And by the end of the series, you'll just have this very rich

• 8:48Kirk Hamilton?

  understanding of each of these characters and of the world they inhabit. And if any of that makes you curious, you could start with just the first two books. They're called Shards of Honor and Beryar, and they're collected in an omnibus as well, called Cordelia's Honor. And they tell the story of Miles Vorkosigan, who's the, the series protagonist. They tell the story of his mother and how she met his father. So it's kind of a self-contained two-parter about Cordelia. It's really good, especially Beryar is a totally killer book. If you read those two, you'll have a sense of whether you like this or not. And I think a lot of people really will like it. And then also, those two episodes are out right now. So you can go listen to us talk about the books after you read them, or if you have already read them. So anyways, I'm very excited. Sam's very excited. It's, it's going to be really fun to have somewhere to talk about

• 9:33Kirk Hamilton?

  these books and books in general. And I hope that some people out there will check out Definitely Fiction.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  I hope so, too. It sounds really fun. I know you are a voracious fiction reader, so I'm glad you have an outlet that isn't just the One More Things section.

• 9:59Kirk Hamilton?

  It's true, though I will, of course, still be talking about books on my One More Things.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Shocked to hear that. Shocking news.

• 10:04Kirk Hamilton?

  Well, let's talk about what we are actually talking about today on TripleClick, and that is a new video game called The Blood of Dawnwalker.

• 10:17Kirk Hamilton?

  I've written a summary of this game to get us started, to kind of establish the table stakes, so I will now read it.

• 10:25Kirk Hamilton?

  The Blood of Dawnwalker is a new action role-playing game from Polish studio Rebel Wolves, an outfit made up of a bunch of ex-CD Projekt Red developers who cut their teeth working on The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077. In Dawnwalker, players control Cohen, a young peasant living with his family in the Carpathian Mountains of southeastern Europe in the 1300s, or more accurately, struggling to survive as a plague ravages Vale Sangora, the fictional valley in which he and his family live. A brutal purge of the infected by the region's ruling regime is halted by the arrival of Brensas, the powerful and ancient Vrakiri, or vampire, who arrives with his entourage of cool vampire captains just in time to save the lives of Cohen and his family.

• 11:10Kirk Hamilton?

  Brensas establishes a new order, murdering the old ruling class and installing himself as ruler of the valley, curing the plague by letting the people drink his healing blood, but demanding a monthly blood tribute as well as absolute submission from all of the people in return. Many in the valley welcome this new order. Sure, Brensas is feeding off of them and culling those too weak to provide a blood tribute, and yeah, he's forcing them to abandon Christianity and worship him, and papering over the walls of their churches and outlawing free expression, but the last guy was pretty bad, too, wasn't he? Brensas thus rules over the valley, not just with the aid of his three vampire captains, but with the help of a significant force of armed human enforcers who patrol and terrorize their fellow humans. As one bit of very repetitive guard dialogue likes to remind you, "They do it for the pay."

• 11:57Kirk Hamilton?

  I was waiting to see if either of you would laugh, and because you have heard that line as many times as I heard it.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. There's a few repetitive lines.

• 12:03Kirk Hamilton?

  "I do it for the pay."

• 12:05Speaker 00

  We can get into it.

• 12:06Kirk Hamilton?

  Through a series of events, Cohen is transformed into a Vrakiri, Brensas takes his family hostage, and Cohen sets off on his quest to try to rescue his family before Brensas kills them. Cohen also learns that he is not just any vampire, he is a Dawnwalker, transforming into a normal man in the daytime and becoming a powerful vampire at night. Thus begins Cohen's quest to save his family and throw off Brensas's rule, an adventure that will play out quite differently depending on the choices players make. Dawnwalker is a third-person action game, very much in the vein of The Witcher 3. Gameplay involves investigation and light puzzle-solving, exploration of a large, open map, branching conversations filled with complex branches and driven by intriguing hidden reputation systems,

• 12:51Kirk Hamilton?

  and of course, lots and lots of combat. Players can embrace any of a number of gameplay styles and builds, and some of them, in particular, the vampiric abilities and drinking lots of blood to go with them, will have an effect on Cohen's development as a character and even change the outcome of story events. As Cohen slowly becomes known as the heroic or terrifying Cohen of Laslia, a name that sure rolls off the tongue like a certain Geralt of Rivia, players will encounter Dawnwalker's novel time mechanic, certainly the most distinct aspect of the game. After the prologue, Cohen learns he has 30 in-game days before Brensas will kill his family, and each quest activity and even many of the upgrades in his skill trees will consume a small, or sometimes a large, amount of time units,

• 13:34Kirk Hamilton?

  moving him ever closer to his deadline. And that is how Blood of Dawnwalker works. It's a fascinating game. I am excited to talk about it, and I'd love to hear what the two of you think. So how about, tell us what you've played and what you think of it.

• 13:49Kirk Hamilton?

  Maddie, how about you kick us off?

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Sure. I'm about 10 or 12 hours in, and I'm digging it. I really like vampires in general, I'll say, so it's pretty easy to sell me on this. And I think that there are some pretty cool vampire lore elements here. They're not totally original by any means. It'd be hard to come up with wholly original vampire lore at this point, but I really enjoy what's there. I think the concept of Brensas being as powerful as he is and being like, kind of, the feudal lord, but he's a vampire, and everybody having to give sacrifices to that lord, except, again, we're talking about vampires here,

• 14:31Speaker 00

  kind of dovetails with some vampire lore that I personally really like when it's used, which is vampires as kind of the symbol for the aristocracy, and ordinary people having to find ways to fight against them using just ordinary means. And Cohen, as a Dawnwalker, I think is also a fun mechanic in a game. Like, the fact that he's a vampire at night, can walk around ordinarily during the day, I think that's really fascinating. I would say the story is the main thing in this game that I find to be really strong and what's kept me going. There have been a few things in the game that I think could maybe use a little something extra or like, didn't really wow me,

• 15:15Speaker 00

  but by and large, I've stayed curious and interested, and I've wanted to know what happens. I really like that you can significantly affect the story. The fact that Cohen is bloodthirsty at night and can kill seemingly anyone, including major characters if he so chooses, is really fascinating to me. That's like, often an option conversation, that you can just succumb to the hunger and just kill somebody who's like, significant to the plot. I think that's really cool.

• 15:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Awesomely. Also, just to elaborate on that, if you go into a conversation with a low enough amount of health, all of your dialogue options will start flashing "succumb to the hunger", and you might just accidentally, like, succumb and drain someone's.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had that happen early on, luckily, with some peasant guy that I didn't care about. I say luckily, but I did feel really bad about it, and I was like, oh, I need to like, really keep an eye on my health bar in this game and make sure that if I'm entering into any conversation with humans, that I don't succumb to the hunger. So I think all of those story beats are really fun, and that has been my favorite part of the game so far.

• 16:17Kirk Hamilton?

  Nice. Jason, how about you?

• 16:20Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, I am about to take on the second boss, so I'm like, maybe halfway through, maybe more than halfway through the game. I am really enjoying it. I really like the time mechanic, which is something that I suspect when people first hear about it will think it's controversial, like, kind of like Majora's Mask's first reception and first reactions from players. "What do you mean, I have a limited amount of time to do stuff? I just want to explore and take my time with the world." But there are a few things that actually make the time mechanic really work very well and make me think that it's really smart. One is that time doesn't go by. You have these 30 days and 30 nights,

• 17:03Jason Schreier?

  but it's not that time goes by when you're just like, wandering around the world and just kind of watching a clock tick down. Time only goes by when you deliberately make it move by doing quests or investigating certain areas. Basically, everything that will take time warns you ahead of time, and you'll see a little indication. Like, fleshing out your skill tree also will take some time, and that's often a good way to just kind of kill some time if you want to wait between day and night, because sometimes you can only do quests at night, and so you might want to wait a while so you can get a quest done, but, and that's like, a good time to flesh out your skill tree. So you'll always know what's going to get the timer going, and it's, there's enough time that you don't really have to worry about feeling that constrained,

• 17:48Jason Schreier?

  but at the same time, it gives you an end point in sight, and you know that you have this structure that is kind of surrounding you, as opposed to a lot of these open-world games where you just have no idea how much longer it's going to be and how many more hours you're gonna have to play, and you wind up burning yourself out on side quests and not actually seeing it through to the end of the game, which is what happened to me with The Witcher 3, and to a lesser extent, Cyberpunk and some of these other just open-world games I've played over the years, where I just, without having any sort of structure in place to kind of prevent me from burning out on side quests, I just inevitably will and then stop playing. So I really like that this constrains you. And in the prologue of the game, it's designed really smartly

• 18:31Jason Schreier?

  in that it tells you very transparently, "You will not be able to do every side quest in this prologue, so just pick and choose." And I really like that. It feels, the limitations there, I think, feel empowering rather than restricting. You don't feel like you're missing out because you're not doing every single side quest, because you know you can't do every single side quest, and I really, really like that. And I think it's the thing that makes this game really cool, in my mind. Other than that, it feels a lot like The Witcher. Combat's a little bit better, got some kingdom come deliverance in it, in that you spend a lot of time just kind of parrying in certain, in one of the four cardinal directions, kind of feels like a rhythm game. It's got a nice, got a nice kind of cadence to it.

• 19:17Jason Schreier?

  Everything else, a lot of the rest of the game is taken from The Witcher, which makes sense, because the director of this game is also the director of The Witcher 3. And then another of the directors, the creative director of this game, was the quest director on Witcher 3. There's a lot of people who are kind of running this game, who worked together on The Witcher 3. The lead writer of this game was the writer on The Witcher 3, et cetera, et cetera.

• 19:41Jason Schreier?

  I really like it. I think it's really cool. I've really enjoyed what I've played so far.

• 19:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Nice. Yes, I agree. I really like it. I finished the game a couple of times. I've gotten a few different endings. I finished with 20, after 20 days of in-game time, for anyone curious. So I had 10 days left, and I felt more than powerful enough to just go and take on Brensas and try to rescue my family.

• 20:05Jason Schreier?

  Did you beat all the three sub-bosses, or you just went straight to Brensas?

• 20:09Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I did have a few somewhat tantalizing side quests left, or ones that I'm at least interested in. And at some point in those last 10 days, I'm sure I can go back and finish all of, if not, most if not all of them. And then the ending I got, I really liked. It feels like my canon ending, so I'll just still get that ending, I think, keeping my save for presumably there will be a sequel to this game. And then I can kind of carry over some of my choices into the sequel, which would be cool. But anyways, yeah, I really like it a lot. And I think we should just start by talking about the time mechanic. I'll keep story stuff, like spoilers and specifics, really light. Though I am glad to have finished it, because I do think it's helpful to be able to really speak to the whole experience

• 20:51Kirk Hamilton?

  when talking about this time mechanic, and talking about the writing and the story and everything else. But especially the time mechanic, because I've certainly seen a lot of people pre-release talking like you're saying, Jason, where they're really concerned about it, or they're saying, "Oh, no, this is like a no buy for me. Like, I'm not playing this, because I want to like, see everything. I want to get 100% of the game. Like, I want to get all of the content," you know? And I think that, I totally agree that this approach is both novel and smart and really well implemented. And I think that what it does is, it kind of forces you not to think that way. Instead of, you just can't think, "Okay, well, I gotta see everything, because that's the whole game. You know, I gotta get the whole experience." It's telling you, no, this is an authored narrative that you're going to make your way through,

• 21:36Kirk Hamilton?

  making choices that cut off some avenues and change the outcome, so you just won't see everything. And then one of those choices is even going to be, what do you choose to do with the limited time you have? So by giving you that choice kind of at every moment, it's just really reinforcing that this is an interactive narrative, and any narrative has to have branches. It has to have characters die. It has to have, you know, possible routes get cut off, because there's only one route, and then that's the story that you told of Cohen. And by the end, I really felt like, okay, that was my story. And I've gone back and seen a few other endings in particular, but a lot of quests, I just made a big decision, and the quest ended a certain way, and I'm not even certain how that affected future branches.

• 22:19Kirk Hamilton?

  There's so much branching and variety in this story, and I find that really exciting. And I love the way the time mechanic just makes you begin engaging with that right from the start. And you can't just min-max your way and like, min-max the story, you know? And see every single thing, and then just get to the one-choice moment, you know, where you make the choice, and then see every single thing and make another choice. You're like constantly making choices, and that engages me in the narrative very differently.

• 22:44Jason Schreier?

  So, you know how you complained before about my warmed-over video stuff that I was bringing on the podcast? Well, now I'll give you a triple-click exclusive, which is-

• 22:53Kirk Hamilton?

  Oh, boy.

• 22:54Jason Schreier?

  I interviewed, so I interviewed the directors, Conrad and Mateus, whose last name I would butcher if I tried to pronounce here. But the two of them, they're brothers. They work together on The Witcher.

• 23:06Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Jason Schreier?

  I've interviewed them a few times. I interviewed them this week for a Bloomberg story that's upcoming, but I'll give you guys a first little taste, which is Conrad was telling me about the origins of the time mechanic, because I thought that was really interesting. And it actually started at the very beginning of development, when they were first, when he was first like, starting to think about what this game would be. And basically, the kind of the flow was, it was, "Hey, we want to do a vampire game, but vampires are kind of overpowered, so why don't we do sort of like a werewolf thing, where you're a vampire during the night, and then a human during the day? And then from there, it became, well, okay, what if someone only wants to play as like a vampire some of the time, or only wants to play as a vampire, or only wants to play as a human? What if we have like some sort of day and night cycle? Okay, and what if we have this time system in place?

• 23:50Jason Schreier?

  And then also, it'll solve that problem, that is the classic RPG problem of like, "Oh, the meteor is falling from the sky, but you have a bunch of chocobo breeding to do, so you can just go take all the time you want," and kind of solve that classic thing. And so that is what kind of led to this. And they spent a ton of time iterating and thinking about what would actually take up time. For a while, they were thinking that fast traveling would take up time. They decided against that. There is just a lot of kind of back and forth on that. And what they landed on, I think, works pretty well. Some of it is a little inconsistent. Sometimes it'll be like, why does opening this chest take a chunk of time, but like, opening this other one doesn't? But still, mostly, it feels like it makes sense, because usually the stuff that takes up time

• 24:34Jason Schreier?

  is connected to quests in some way, and you can't do every quest in the game. You could do a large chunk of them. But it's also, because you have that 30 days and 30 nights, and Kirk, I'm glad you mentioned that you finished it in 20 days, you never really feel like so constrained that you really have to just like, make it like, you're sacrificing lots of things by choosing to do this quest over this other. You do have a lot of buffer in your schedule to be going and doing whatever you want. And like I mentioned before, it's freeing to know that you're not going to be able to do everything. I think it works quite well.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. I also like that this game has the kind of, I think of this as a Breath of the Wild mechanic, but there's other games that do this, where it's like, you can go fight Ganondorf at the beginning of the game. And like, if you wanted to, on day one, you could go fight Brensas. I didn't do that, but I did really early on go to, there's like this kind of big city in the game, and I went there kind of quote-unquote "too early," just because I wanted to check it out.

• 25:33Jason Schreier?

  Sfart House?

• 25:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, Sfart House, Sfart House, and all these wonderful fictional Eastern European names. And I went there, and I was like, "Oh, all these guys are really hard. Like, this is kind of fun and challenging and interesting, and like, I'm gonna leave, and I'll come back here later and know that I'm so much stronger." And like, that was kind of cool to me, that I could really go anywhere that early on. I think that part of the game makes it feel tantalizing and exciting, especially if you're somebody who really likes challenge, and you're like, "I actually do want to try and rush through some of the bosses and stuff early on." That's fine, if you're that person. I'm not. I just wanted to try it. But also, I appreciate that the map is pretty specific.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't know that I've unlocked the entirety of the map yet, but I get the sense that it's not so massive that I'm gonna feel really overwhelmed. Like, that's another issue that I have with The Witcher 3 and its ilk, of which I have played two hours. But I did play enough of it to open up the map and be like, "Oh, my God, there's so much to do," and then I like-

• 26:37Jason Schreier?

  Well, you didn't even, I mean, you saw like the first zone.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  I can only imagine, I can only imagine. But that's overwhelming, right? You know, like, this game feels very specific.

• 26:46Jason Schreier?

  It's worth noting here that the structure of the game is, yes, it's kind of like, Breath of the Wild is a good comparison point, because you can go for Brensas and his castle at any time. But then there are also these three sub-bosses that we've kind of mentioned in passing a couple of times, and each of them has their own region. And it's got this Ubisoft-inspired mechanic, where you do a bunch of quests to kind of piss off the sub-boss of that region, and then eventually they'll reveal themselves to you in some way. And there'll be some quests attached to them, and there are a bunch of different ways in which you can approach them. And then taking out all three sub-bosses will then weaken Brensas's defenses in a major way. And along the way, you can also do quests to find allies that'll help you against Brensas,

• 27:31Jason Schreier?

  and find ways to just kind of learn about his defenses and how you can infiltrate them. And there's a whole lot of branches along the way. And Kirk, to the point you made earlier, I mean, I've been pretty impressed by like, how some of the quests tie into each other in unexpected ways. For example, there's this race of creatures in the game that live on the mountains. And at one point, I had a quest that was taking me up to one of their villages. And I got and met their chieftain, and everybody was threatening me, because I wasn't supposed to be up there. And I was talking to the chieftain, and then the chieftain mentioned that I'd helped out a person in a previous quest that I just happened to do before this one. And that gave me access to the village in a way that I imagine I would have had to either fight my way through,

• 28:16Jason Schreier?

  or bluff my way through, or find some other way to help them out to get access. But instead, because I had already done this previous quest, I had access. I'm being vague to avoid spoilers, but I thought it was a really cool moment. And I always appreciate it when an RPG just remembers your choices. This feels a lot like Baldur's Gate 3 in that way.

• 28:34Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, they're related to that same quest. And I'll also be vague. That is, that's just a cool part of the world, those people and, and their stories. Cause they're sort of a sep- they're separate from the Verkiri and from the humans. And I had, I talked to a guy in the big city and he was the one who let me know how to find that village. And he made me swear that I would not cause any bloodshed there. And then I didn't. And so later I was in the city and he was just kind of hanging out. And as I walked past him, a cutscene played where he and Cohen talked and he said, I heard you didn't kill anyone. Like, I really appreciate it. Like, thank you, you're a friend to us. And then left. And it was just like a little scene that any dungeon master would easily do, but it's

• 29:19Kirk Hamilton?

  that kind of feeling of like, oh, cool. This world really is aware of me and it keeps you kind of guessing, you know, in that, in that lovely way that a game like Baldur's Gate 3 does as well. And yeah, I think something that I want to underline that you're both getting at is there is a sense of focus to this story that I think is very cool. I love The Witcher 3. I am by far the biggest Witcher 3 sicko on this podcast. I played the entire game twice, all of its DLC. I've seen every quest in that game. I like, love it so much.

• 29:48Jason Schreier?

  We're gonna be talking about it more soon when new DLC comes out.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  I'm gonna have to play it finally.

• 29:52Kirk Hamilton?

  And that remaster, yeah. I, I really want to try to sell the two of you on us playing it and doing a series, talking about it next year or something. Cause like, it's really special.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  I think it's a good idea.

• 30:02Jason Schreier?

  I think we're already sold.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, we are.

• 30:04Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  We will do it.

• 30:06Kirk Hamilton?

  Alright, good.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Spoilers for future comic series.

• 30:07Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay, don't email them, they're already sold, everybody. That my subtle attempt to get you all to start sending messages is not necessary. Cause yeah, that remaster looks totally sick and that game is amazing. So anyways, there's a lot to say comparing the two. The Witcher 3 does many things that Blood of Dawnwalker does not do. Notably, like, there's just more, it's more playful. It has more kind of these variety set pieces. There's like this big quest where Geralt has to be in a play and you have to remember all your lines. There, there are these like very memorable silly things. You go to a party with some ghost inside of you and you have to be the ghost for the whole party. Like, lots of stuff happens in the world of The Witcher that doesn't happen in this game. This is a much more focused game, which we should say, it's made by a much smaller team over about four or five years.

• 30:50Kirk Hamilton?

  It sounds like they started in 2021, 2022, which is really cool.

• 30:55Jason Schreier?

  Not a much smaller team than Witcher 3, actually.

• 30:57Kirk Hamilton?

  Oh, is it not a mu- is it not much smaller? They started smaller, I suppose, and then they grew.

• 31:01Jason Schreier?

  Witcher 3, I think, was about, I have the number somewhere, but it's about 150 people or so. And Dawnwalker was made by 160, yeah.

• 31:09Kirk Hamilton?

  They're 160 now, though they did start smaller and they've kind of grown over, over time. Regardless, like, not a, you know, massive development over a 10-year period of time or whatever, like we usually see with games like this.

• 31:21Jason Schreier?

  Oh, I have, I have the number. This is from Conrad. Third Witcher was in the beginning, 80 people, average was 120. By the end, they had about 200 people. So similar, similar size for what it's worth.

• 31:31Kirk Hamilton?

  Nice. Yeah, and it is a much, I would say, just a more tightly focused game. And something that's really cool about this time mechanic and the way that the side quests are designed, as you kind of laid out, Jason, there's a feeling that everything is in service of this one quest. Like, there are definitely some like activities, you can kind of go and just find hidden treasure on a treasure map, or you can, you know, I don't know. There's a couple of things that don't directly relate to Brannus. They're just sort of like Cohen trying to get a new piece of equipment that'll make him a little more powerful for when he fights Brannus. But by and large, almost every quest somehow relates to Brannus, to his rule, to like, you know, undermining him, or maybe joining a rebellion, or finding a character who can

• 32:13Kirk Hamilton?

  help you, or pissing off one of his captains so you can fight them. And like, there's just this feeling that it's all about this one thing. And it's this one big story that you're working your way through. And that is unusual for a game like this. There just isn't that chocobo breeding thing. There isn't that feeling of like, alright, now I kind of just want to live in the world. And part of that is because like narratively, this isn't a world you would want to live in. It's much more like Diablo 4, you know, in particular. It's this, it's a pretty awful place. Everyone is really beaten down. They're all really scared. Everyone is like talking in hushed tones. It's this like brutal authoritarian regime. And so you're like, under this boot of these vampires at all times and every, it's just all encompassing. You can't get out from under it. And you wouldn't want to.

• 32:57Kirk Hamilton?

  You wouldn't want to just open a farm and live here. This isn't like, you know, Elder Scrolls game. Like, it's not a, it's not that kind of game. But I liked that. I think it gave it a lot of focus and momentum.

• 33:06Jason Schreier?

  It's, man, it is not a, not a light game. A lot of the quests like have ending choices where there's no good option, which is-

• 33:15Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, you make some very difficult decisions. It deals with some really, I just thought, very mature subject matter in ways that I found surprising, things I won't spoil, but just, you know, I, I do appreciate the writing. And let's talk a little more about the writing and the story, because I agree with you, Matty, that is certainly, to me, the strongest thing about the game. I really liked the combat, I found it fun. It's a pretty fun game to play. But like, the story and the setup of the story, the narrative framework just grabbed me from the beginning. I think they will do the same thing for many other people. One of the really interesting things about this, it kind of relates to that all encompassing feeling of oppression. This is kind of, this is interestingly like a reverse colonization story. This is basically like you have been colonized by vampires.

• 33:59Kirk Hamilton?

  And this is a bunch of Christians in southeastern Europe in the 14th century, being colonized by an outside force. And it's very much that story. Like, the vampires are covering over all of the murals on the walls of the churches and outlawing Christianity, which is something that European colonists did to other cultures when they colonized them. Like, this is very much the experience of being colonized. And that's like what this game feels like, which I just think is a very interesting thing for a game to explore, you know? There, a lot of games, like I think of Breath of the Wild, they do a kind of post-apocalyptic thing. Oh, the world's been destroyed and there's like some big weird god and you have to go fight him and like pick through the ashes of the society.

• 34:42Kirk Hamilton?

  But it's a very different flavor to be in your familiar setting, your character's familiar setting, with people that you know, under the rule of an occupying force, who are in the process of erasing your culture. And that, I think, is a striking and distinct thing about this game. And in particular, the way that it actually takes the real religions of the era, of the period. Like, there's a Jewish district in the city, you meet Jewish characters, there's like a rabbi who is very helpful. You know, a lot of the characters are Christian, that a lot of them are dealing with the fact that like they're no longer allowed to practice Christianity, even though they may be really believed and still believe and don't know what to do. Other people are trying to synthesize that by saying, well, Brannus is a saint, clearly. Like, he must be an angel or something.

• 35:26Kirk Hamilton?

  He has these, his healing blood and he has these divine seeming powers. So maybe I can kind of like reconcile this.

• 35:32Jason Schreier?

  And saved us from the previous despot who was in charge.

• 35:35Kirk Hamilton?

  Right. And then, yeah, there's this other interesting political valence where, you know, is it better to be ruled by a human who is also genuinely awful? Or this actual monster? And like, what is our culture worth to us? I find all of that so interesting and just consistently compelling throughout the time I was playing the game.

• 35:53Jason Schreier?

  This actual monster, who it's worth noting, as he points out very early on, like, removed all taxes and tithes and like-

• 36:00Kirk Hamilton?

  And murdered the aristocracy.

• 36:02Jason Schreier?

  Gives them healing, yeah, and heals them.

• 36:03Kirk Hamilton?

  Killed all the hated aristocracy.

• 36:05Jason Schreier?

  And all he asks for is some blood.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  All taxes, except for one. Yeah, it's, it's perhaps the worst tax of all. I, I do like how even the characters who seem to kind of be going along with this idea that Brannus is a saint, like, nobody ever really seems like they're that much of a true believer. And I feel like that's emphasized by like the, the paintings and the church. Yeah, they do it for the pay. I guess, since we have been very complimentary, I can describe something you're getting at, Jason, which is that like every now and then, the lack of writing is almost how I would describe some of the parts of this game that stick out. Where like, I'll do a quest and I'll be like, oh, that was like very clearly a side quest,

• 36:50Speaker 00

  where the dialogue was very placeholder feeling and almost nothing came of that. And like, those are the moments of, of disappointment that I have in this game, or when every now and then something just happens that feels really cardboard. And I'm like, that's too bad, because everything else in this game feels so finely crafted. So it's like tough to run into peasants who look identical to one another, or like, just little things. Like, sometimes I'll like do something nice for someone and there'll be an entire quest and then I'll like go back and talk to them and they'll have the same boilerplate line of, I just don't like the look of you, or whatever it is that they say to Cohen when they don't like him. And I'm like, we just had a moment, man.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  There are just little things like that, that I'm like, this, this doesn't quite hang together as much as I would like.

• 37:38Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I can see that. Like, there's definitely like repetitive NPC dialogue. And there are, you know, out at the edges, it does start to become clear, okay, they had to scope for this at some point and they couldn't-

• 37:48Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 37:49Kirk Hamilton?

  Have every line, you know? But, and you get that feeling occasionally, though I, I do have to say- There's definitely a philosophical connection to The Witcher 3 here, where something that The Witcher 3 did, and I think kind of introduced, that I know Horizon, the Horizon Forbidden West games, did the same thing. They kind of borrowed this idea from The Witcher. I think explicitly, like, I believe there have been GDC talks about this. But The Witcher, their quest designers had this idea where every quest has to lead to some complication. Like, you have to start the quest, the guy hires you to go take out the monster. You go to take out the monster, but then you realize, like, oh, there isn't really a monster. Actually, it's like the possessed guy's son, and the guy was lying to you, and he wants you to go kill his son because his son actually, whatever,

• 38:33Kirk Hamilton?

  like, slept with some girl he wasn't supposed to and ran off. Like, there's always this twist, and then Geralt has to make some decision where it's like, do I save the guy's son and try to, you know, explain to the villagers what happened? Or do I kill him and go back? And you, like, get this little choice. And almost every main quest in this game does the same thing. Even the one, like, what in a Ubisoft game would be fully the copy paste feeling of like, okay, there are these, you know, there's like a patrol out, and you kill the patrol, and then that brings you a little closer to fighting the region boss. And it's just like, okay, another patrol on the road, you kill them. In this game, each of those kind of falls into a category. And if you do them all, they kind of connect to one another. Like, one of the sub-bosses is doing these, this research into the kind of ancient ruins

• 39:17Kirk Hamilton?

  that lie underneath this valley. And so there's a whole kind of interesting kind of backstory lore thing there with these ancient ruins and maybe the people who came before. And one of the sub-bosses is trying to learn more about that. And so each time, you kind of just go into a base, and you, like, fight a boss and clear it out, and then spend some time points in order to finish the quest. But each time, you also, like, learn more, and you get these documents. And actually, there's like a kind of NPC, that's like a major NPC connected to all of them. And if you do them all, it, like, closes out this little story that even gives you some choices and some interesting dialogue options. And a lot of the game is designed that way, and I think that's very cool. Like, it's definitely, in the same way The Witcher 3 felt this way, like, it feels like an evolution of that kind of RPG side quest.

• 40:01Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, I have felt that way, too. I actually haven't felt the same way as you, Matty, as far as just kind of rougher notes of the quests and the writing. I've been feeling the opposite, where the quests and the writing are kind of such a highlight for me, that they're making up for some of the other shortcomings, which I think are more along the lines of just kind of like, too many wolves, and some kind of boring travel options, and too much fast travel, too many fast travel points, and other things that are more minor complaints. So, the quester, the creative director of this game, Mateusz, I'm gonna try to pronounce his last name, I didn't before, but it's Mateusz Tomaskowicz, which is probably wrong, but close enough. Better than not saying his last name. And he's the brother of the director, Konrad Tomaskowicz.

• 40:45Jason Schreier?

  They're both kind of directors on this game and play a key role on it. So Mateusz was the quest director on Witcher 3, and he's the one who kind of, like, led that charge of having every quest have a complication.

• 40:57Kirk Hamilton?

  Totally makes sense.

• 40:58Jason Schreier?

  And I'm seeing that all over the place here. I mean, a lot of little stuff, like, oh, this, this person who you thought was gonna be alive and, like, conspiring is actually dead. Or, like you mentioned, Kirk, what could feel like wrote Ubisoft-style quests in that, when you're trying to piss off these bosses and get them to come out at you, have little twists along the way, even if it's just small stuff. Like, there's one where you're destroying barrels, and unexpectedly, like, someone pops up out of one of the barrels, and it's just this ridiculous character, this hilarious character.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, one of the few moments of levity, like, it's like Kirk said, there's very, very few moments of levity in this game.

• 41:36Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, this is a bleak game. It is definitely, definitely a game that doesn't have a lot of comic relief to it. And yeah, Witcher 3, there's no, like, unicorn sex or other, just kind of, it's a very different tone than Witcher 3. That's, that's one where, areas where it's very distinct. Yeah, the shortcomings I've seen or thought about, just as I'm playing, are a lot of the shortcomings that, like, a lot of other RPGs have. Inventory bloat, just way too many, like, systems that you just never need to even think about. But if they're overlumped with constantly, or like, a skill tree with stat, with skills that are mostly kind of meaningless, like, 10% upgrade in your attack ability, like, who gives a shit?

• 42:15Kirk Hamilton?

  Some of the skills are good, but yeah, some aren't. And yeah, especially the crafting system, I would say.

• 42:20Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, the crafting system, like, collecting all this just stuff from people.

• 42:23Kirk Hamilton?

  You get so many, like, usable, you know, like, consumables, that the idea of crafting anything, like, I think I, I crafted something at the very beginning, and then never crafted anything again, and never used my consumables to begin with.

• 42:36Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, I've done some healing items. But yeah, I mean, that's the thing about this combat also, and I think they'll have to iterate on this combat a little bit more for the next game, even though I like it. But the way it works is that essentially, if you get the rhythm game of it all right, you can just beat anything in the game without even really thinking about it. And I think on harder difficulties, you won't see the icons that are telling you which direction to use, which I imagine changes the game quite a bit.

• 43:03Kirk Hamilton?

  That's a setting, actually, that you can turn off. And if you did want to make it harder, you could, and you'd have to read body language to gauge your parries, which would be cool. It's a, it's, yeah, it's a cool combat system. It does get a little bit repetitive, having played the whole game, partly because there just aren't that many types of enemies. And then, you know, so it took me, my game clock says 39 hours, or my Steam clock says 39 hours, rather, my game clock says, I think, 25. It's probably somewhere in between, like, 30-something hours. And I could have probably played another 5 to 10, like, getting everything else. And definitely halfway through, both Cohn was, you know, yoked enough, and just kind of pretty unstoppable. And also, I was good enough at the combat, that I just, like, was destroying everything I fought.

• 43:47Kirk Hamilton?

  And yeah, like you're saying, Jason, I just was like, okay, I know exactly when to parry, and exactly when to dodge on every boss. There's a generous parry window to anyone worried about parrying. It's actually very satisfying, once you get it right. You kind of block and pick a direction. So if they're coming in from the left, you, like, swing your sword left and block them. And it feels really good. I mean, it is directional, like, the directionality thing is similar to Kingdom Come Deliverance 2, but the actual combat is way more fun, I think. Like, it's much more, like, percussive and fun and kind of punchy. And I do like that about it, but it does get repetitive, especially, man, wolves, god.

• 44:20Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a way, it's a huge upgrade over Witcher 3.

• 44:23Kirk Hamilton?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 44:24Jason Schreier?

  The big weakness of that game is the combat. Something I think is worth noting here is that Rebel Wolves, the company behind this game, started at, like, the beginning of 2022, and they got an investment from NetEase, which, this was the time, for people who might not remember, 2021, 2022, where everybody who had worked for a AAA company was going off and starting new companies and getting investments from VCs, or for China, or from Saudi Arabia. And most of those games didn't come out. So it's worth highlighting this as something that actually came out, is pretty good, is pretty cool, seems to be setting up, like, set up for success, and hopefully they get the chance to keep making more of this stuff. And I think there are a couple of reasons for that, a lot of good reasons for that, I'm sure.

• 45:07Jason Schreier?

  One of which is that it's a lot of people who have worked together before, who are running the studio. But a big one, I think, it helps explain some of this game, which is that they had a template that they could use in The Witcher 3. Witcher 3 was a game they all knew how to make. They could just kind of start off with it and use that as kind of a default, which might help explain some of the decisions they made, such as, like, throwing in all these different systems that you don't really have to engage with all that much, like crafting and item weight and other just kind of RPG default mechanics. Because I think when you're making a game, you have to make so many different decisions, both big and small, every single day, that it can be paralyzing, and it can almost be helpful to be like, well, okay, that's what we did, that's what we know how to make, let's just go with the default decision that we know,

• 45:51Jason Schreier?

  what we did with The Witcher 3, and then just take it from there. And that way, you can focus more of your time and energy on the bigger picture, changes that you're making, like, the time system, or like, the combat, improving that, that sort of thing. It can be helpful to have a baseline. And oftentimes, when we see some of these big, ambitious game projects fail, it's because they don't have a vision, and there's no, no team behind it that has worked on other games before and can use that as a template. I'm thinking specifically of a game called The Last Sentinel, that was recently, they haven't said it's canceled, but it's essentially canceled from Tencent. And that was a game where they hired a bunch of, like, AAA people. They said, we're gonna take on all these big games, it's gonna, we hired this guy from Rockstar, we're gonna make Grand Theft Auto.

• 46:34Jason Schreier?

  And essentially, it was just a disaster, too many cooks in the kitchen, and not a clear vision moving forward on that game. And this is the opposite thing, where there was a very clear vision, but like, some of that might have just been stuff we've seen before. So I guess, well, I, it's very easy to forgive some of the, kind of, like, overencumbrance of systems that you don't actually have to engage with in this game.

• 47:00Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, one more thing to share on this game, I think, is just to talk about Cohn a little bit more as a protagonist, since you spend a lot of time with him. And I like him, I think he works as a protagonist. He is not Geralt of Rivia, even though Cohn of Laslia sounds similar. He is, but he's still a good character. He's a softer character in general, I think. He's gentler, and he's a little thrown out of his element and into this, into this, like, morass. Man, narratively, it actually really reminds me of Mistborn. You know anyone out there who's read Mistborn, the Brandon Sanderson book?

• 47:33Jason Schreier?

  You and your fantasy and sci-fi massive series.

• 47:36Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, well, Mistborn in particular, like, the setting and the feel of that, the oppressive nature, like, being in this doomed rebellion underneath an unstoppable force, there's a lot of similarities there. Anyhow, Cohn is, I think, a strong character. It's, it's not Geralt of Rivia, like, it's not that performance. You don't get that kind of wry, sexy, confident guy. But you get someone else, and I will say, over the course of the game, Cohn is fleshed out, I think, really well, as is his family. Something that I felt at the beginning, where you meet his family, and you're kind of happy for a little while before everything goes to shit. I kind of was like, oh, we didn't get very long with his family. I don't know that I'm that invested in rescuing them, because, like, I don't really know who his dad is. Like, who is his father?

• 48:18Kirk Hamilton?

  And his father is this very important figure to him, clearly, but you only get, like, 10 minutes with him, and then he's gone. But I will say, the game does a very good job, I think, of fleshing that out, specifically of fleshing out his father, but also his mother, and also just the backstory of his family, and focusing on Cohn's, like,

• 48:36Kirk Hamilton?

  I guess it's on his trauma and on like recovering from something really terrible that happened to their family. And it's actually winds up being a very specific and well told story that's very full of character and consistent for him, that then ties in with like his broader story in the game. And that is another thing I think this game does very well is they handle their main character quite well.

• 48:54Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, man, finding your dad's old war buddy and hearing his stories is just, yeah, classic. And that character is ridiculous, absurd. There's some more levity, by the way, in that character. Yeah, the writing in this game, I mean, same as The Witcher 3, just playing through this game and seeing the caliber of English writing that is created by people who are not native English speakers is just incredibly impressive.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess they found some good translators. I do feel like there probably is something to the tone, though, and like the sort of like storytelling conventions of that part of the world that we've talked about on this show before. And the history that it's speaking to is also like a very dark time in history across Europe. And that, I think, is, it's definitely something that you gotta get used to when you're playing the game. I don't dislike it by any means, but like, the game is a vibe and the vibe is sad. It's like you're really hanging out with some doomed people. And the quests that I do think are well written are because they are end in sadness and knife twists, like Kirk was saying.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  And like, that is a very big part of what makes the game effective, but also just like a certain kind of like icky feeling that I think is totally intended and very much a part of existing in Dawnwalker.

• 50:17Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, it's definitely channeling a specific vibe, and that vibe is kind of Gothic vampire, like dark fiction, rather than The Witcher, which is a little bit more Hans Christian Andersen and the kind of still dark, often quite dark, you know, children's fairy tales, the really messed up ones, you know, where the kids die and stuff. Like, The Witcher 3 is kind of more in that realm. But that also lets them get into kind of lighter and more fantastical realms, especially like stuff that you saw in Blood and Wine in the DLC, where it was much more like, let's just do some fun fairy tale like riffs where, you know, it's Snow White and the Seven Doors, but a kind of bent weird Witcher version. Like, this game is not doing that. It's much more like, all right, let's do the vampire thing. But the vampire thing is cool.

• 50:58Kirk Hamilton?

  I mean, we haven't really talked about the vampire parts of this game, but like, being a vampire in a video game is awesome. I mean, I love Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, a great game, just, I mean, a very flawed game, but I think a very interesting one, built on a cool role playing system. There are cool vampire games out there because vampires have a distinct power set and lend themselves to video games. This is a great one, though, given that it lets you play both as a human and as a vampire, has this complex moral bran- like branching story full of moral choices and where you can kill so many people. You can play this game as an unholy terror. You can be like, bamfing around on rooftops in the city, like, just hunting civilians. Like, I don't actually know how that works.

• 51:42Kirk Hamilton?

  Like, if you do a full dark, Cohen is just like Dracula, like, playthrough, but I would imagine that it supports that.

• 51:49Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, that'd be interesting.

• 51:50Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, where you're killing everyone and like Cohen kills Brences maybe, and I don't know.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  I mean, maybe there's an ending where he's the new Brences. Yeah.

• 51:56Kirk Hamilton?

  I would not be surprised.

• 51:57Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, that'd be interesting. And shout out, by the way, to the teleportation ability.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:02Jason Schreier?

  Basically Dishonored's blink, you can just blink around in this game, which is awesome.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  It is so fun, and I appreciated that they give you an abilities moment and like a dream sequence really early on in the game, where you kind of like have a dream that you're gonna be a vampire, like extremely early.

• 52:17Kirk Hamilton?

  They're like, stick with us.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Because it's like, don't worry, eventually the game's gonna be sick as hell. And you're just, you're just doing all this like, family stuff that's at the beginning of the horror movie before shit gets really real. I thought that was clever.

• 52:30Kirk Hamilton?

  And thankfully, they don't make you wait too long after taking it away to get it again. And it is like a very fun way to get around.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  But that first time I was teleporting in the dream, I was like, oh, this game's gonna be really awesome.

• 52:39Kirk Hamilton?

  And I think it's pretty cool that you can't do that in the day. Like, you cannot warp up onto a rooftop in the day.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  You simply walk around. You simply walk.

• 52:50Kirk Hamilton?

  You have to wait until night, because you're a vampire and vampires can only come out at night. And that's a cool, like, another like adherence to this rigid kind of time structure that really serves the game and in the end makes it much more interesting. Because then, you're like, okay, well, it's day, I guess I gotta go talk to that guy who's up in the day and like, go talk to that lady who's gonna be around at night, at night, when I'm a vampire. And you even have to think, okay, that quest is gonna be a night quest, so I need to be thinking about like my vampire build and do I have all the abilities that I need? Because I'm probably gonna get into a big fight as a vampire, which works differently than fighting as a human, and you have magic abilities when you're a human. Like, that divide is so cool. It's, I can't really think of the last time I played a game that had like, two character builds that manifest equally in the game and kind of, you're bouncing back and forth between them. And they're both fun.

• 53:35Kirk Hamilton?

  Like, I like fighting in the day and I like using the vampire abilities at night, but I don't miss them when I don't have them. And I think that is a tough balance to hit, and it's pretty cool that they did manage to hit it.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, agreed.

• 53:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Cool. Well, this is a neat game, I think. I wasn't sure how it was gonna go. I've been following it closely, of course, given the pedigree of the developers, but I just, I just didn't know. I would read some previews and think, man, this could be cool, or it could be not my thing. I'd watch, you know, the Gamescom or whatever, like a TGS, you know, or TGA video and think, all right, is the tone gonna be good? Now that I've finished it, I really liked it. I'm really impressed with it. And I hope it's a success. I kind of feel, feels to me like it will be, but I hope it's a success and that they get to make more.

• 54:18Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, it's gonna hit. It's like the number two game on Steam, like, ahead of launch. It's gonna hit.

• 54:24Kirk Hamilton?

  There is a, there is a significant audience for this kind of game, and it's a very good game that will please the people who liked The Witcher 3. Like, I think there's a lot of people. So, my sense is it will be a hit, and I hope it is, because I wanna play more. Like, this world they've built is very cool, and there is a lot left unexplored. Even though this game gets into a lot, it also hints at much, much more in a way that I find very tantalizing and intriguing. I want to know more. I want to see what is gonna happen next. And so, I really hope they get to make another one, and then I get to port my save over and see how all my choices are reflected in another game. All right, that is The Blood of Dawnwalker. Let's take a break, and then we will be back for One More Thing.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  Hey, romance readers, what are you looking for?

• 55:15Speaker 04

  Brother's best friend, alien boyfriend, Mothman, vampires.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  We got your cowboys, your dukes, your hot professors, your rock stars. We got your shifters, we got demons, we got sexy fairies.

• 55:25Speaker 04

  You want a morally gray? No problem.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Can't pick? Don't worry, sweetheart. We've got Y-Chose's up the wazoo.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  Reading Smut, the show where we read spicy books and figure out why people love them.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  Join us on Reading Smut every other Friday on Maximum Fun.

• 55:39Speaker 04

  Oh, that's a spicy book.

• 55:43Speaker 05

  Sleep is important, but it's difficult sometimes. I'm John Mo. On Sleeping with Celebrities, famous people help conk you out by talking in soothing voices about unimportant things. Maria Bamford on parking.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  I parked in a bus stop. That's just not right. I am not a bus.

• 56:03Speaker 05

  Roxanne Gay on airports.

• 56:06Speaker 06

  My favorite airport is Indianapolis. It has a really smart layout.

• 56:11Speaker 05

  Alan Tudyk on yardsticks.

• 56:13Speaker 07

  You hand somebody a yardstick, yardsticks become part of the family.

• 56:17Speaker 05

  Granted, it's a weird idea, but it's lots of fun, and it works. Listen wherever you get podcasts.

• 56:27Kirk Hamilton?

  And we are back for One More Thing. Jason, how about you go first? Tell us about your One More Thing.

• 56:32Jason Schreier?

  My One More Thing is a book I read while I was on vacation last week called The Wedding People by Alison S. Pock. Have either of you heard of this book? It was pretty popular a couple of years ago.

• 56:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Yes, I've heard of it.

• 56:44Jason Schreier?

  So, this is a really cool book. It's a book about a woman who's, who is a professor in her late 30s, I think she's 39, my age. And she, who lives in the Midwest, and she, her life falls apart. Her husband leaves her, her marriage breaks up. And when we open this book, we find her at this very high-end luxury resort, where she has somehow gotten a room, despite the fact that a wedding party has booked the entire resort, and she should not have been able to get a room. So, people are, assume she's part of the wedding party.

• 57:25Jason Schreier?

  And she gets there, and she sees that there's a wedding there. And it's revealed fairly quickly in the first, first little bit, that she has come there to kill herself, and that she has booked this high-end resort because she always dreamed about going there and she's decided to end her life. And due to a comedy of errors, she winds up in the same room as the bride-to-be, and she tells the bride-to-be that she's going to kill herself, and the bride-to-be is like, what the fuck? You're gonna ruin my wedding if you do this. Please do not do this. And they have a long conversation, and she winds up not doing it.

• 58:03Jason Schreier?

  And then we follow the two of them over the next, I don't know, six days or so, seven days, as the wedding unfolds. The kind of, the lead up to the wedding and then the wedding. It must be fewer than seven days. I'm not sure exactly how long it is, but we, it's structured day by day. And we follow her life, and we kind of, we zip around, learn a little bit more about her past, like, why she, why her marriage fell apart, learn about the bride, learn about the groom-to-be, learn about some of the other people there. And a lot of crazy things happen, and relationships do not go in the way that you, they, they

• 58:46Jason Schreier?

  were planned to have gone over the course of these days. And it's a really cool book. It's got a lot of, almost like, I don't know, Quentin Tarantino-style long dialogue exchanges, where people are just kind of talking about, like, nothing, but also a lot of things, just kind of big lofty ideas. And there's a lot of really interesting, just kind of scenes like that, where it's just a ton of dialogue and just people exchanging ideas that I thought was really cool and really well executed. And I really enjoyed it. I think it's a, it's a really good book. I can see why it's so popular. Sold like a million or two million copies or something like that.

• 59:30Jason Schreier?

  And it's a good, a really, I thought, emotional exploration of relationships and marriages and people being their best selves and people feeling comfortable to be around one another in various ways. And yeah, it's a cool book. I enjoyed it. The Wedding People, Alison Espat. Check it out.

• 59:52Kirk Hamilton?

  Nice. Yeah, it sounds good. Maddie, how about you? What's your one more thing?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Uh, my one more thing is a docu-series called Monsters of God. That is, uh, it's five episodes, although I've only watched the first four because the fifth one comes out like around the time that this episode that you, the listener, are listening to comes out. But we've really enjoyed it. Um, it is a docu-series about people who find or procure reptiles and sell sometimes illegally reptiles to zoos and other people who collect reptiles obsessively. And it's been compared to Tiger King, but I never finished Tiger

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  King because I found Tiger King pretty unsavory and exploitative and the kind of tone of the documentary I really didn't care for. And this I feel very differently about. I think it's a very, uh, even-handed exploration of some pretty unsavory people who are really wild characters who are describing times that they've broken the law very proudly and mistreated animals pretty proudly. But I think that the reporters who created it, it's, it's kind of partially based on this reporter, Brian Christie's nonfiction book, The Lizard King, and he's in the documentary, which I appreciated that he was like a big part of it. And also, uh, it's directed by this guy Eric Good, who's like kind of

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  a character in the documentary as well. And I, I sort of, I personally enjoy when a documentarian is part of a documentary and kind of breaks a fourth wall and talks a little bit about how they went about getting their interviews. Appreciate that. Um, I will say it doesn't quite have a plot exactly in the way that sometimes documentaries have like a, a plot or like series of events that they're following. It's more just like, let's dive into this extremely specific, at times upsetting, subculture and just really go ham on interviewing all of these guys. And the reason it's possible is because many of the guys, and it's almost entirely men in the documentary, uh, are like in their

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  seventies and older. And so the statute of limitations is up, or they've already served time in prison for their crimes and they're out now. And they're like, I now I'm just ready to talk about the crimes I committed and in some cases brag about them because I still think I'm like huge badass. And that is really interesting to watch. So, uh, we enjoyed it. It's called Monsters of God. It's a really, uh, detailed look into a hyper-specific subculture of guys who-

• 1:02:30Jason Schreier?

  Wait, I just want to understand this. So the crimes they are committing is smuggling these-

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  Smuggling, stealing, sometimes like going to Madagascar and going to remote islands in the Keys and like taking iguanas from their natural habitats unlawfully and then smuggling them over borders and on flights and in-

• 1:02:50Jason Schreier?

  And selling them to zoos.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  And selling them to pretty high-profile zoos that are now implicated in these crimes because the zoos sort of turn a blind eye to this. And it sort of documents how, uh, especially in the eighties, but even prior to the eighties, reptiles became extremely popular with people. And like after Jurassic Park in particular, they became wildly popular and tons of people wanted to buy them and own them. And where did all these reptiles actually come from? Not always, uh, fair or legal means. And-

• 1:03:22Jason Schreier?

  Got it.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  That is just the subcultures I, that I really didn't know anything about at all, but fine, fascinating. Um, I also think reptiles are really cool. So I, it's a little sad if you think reptiles are cool because there are definitely, uh, some depictions of them being mistreated here. But you also get to learn a lot about an industry that is, I, I didn't know about. So yeah, if that appeals to you, I suppose you could also read Brian Christie's book, The Lizard King. But I've, I enjoyed watching this. It's called Monsters of God. It's on HBO.

• 1:03:50Kirk Hamilton?

  What do you think are the chances that we're going to interface with a version of that subculture in Grand Theft Auto VI?

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  Oh my God, high, because a lot of this is set in Florida. A huge amount of the show is set in Florida because Florida is such, it's like just in the perfect spot in the world to like interface with all the South American reptiles and all the African reptiles coming in and like all, it's like the, the trade routes are all centering in Florida. There's so many Florida man characters in this docu-series. It's just Florida man after Florida man.

• 1:04:22Kirk Hamilton?

  It would not surprise me if there's a side quest in that game where you have like a couple of alligators in the trunk or something and you have to drive them.

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

• 1:04:31Kirk Hamilton?

  That seemed kind of, kind of like, there could be some crossover there. Uh, nice. Well, that sounds really interesting. Well, my one more thing is reading out loud to someone. It is an activity, not a specific piece of content, though it is tied to the, uh, the books that I am covering on my new podcast, Definitely Fiction, which I already told you all about. I am a huge proponent of this now. This is something I had never tried before and I absolutely love it.

• 1:04:57Jason Schreier?

  That's because you do not have children.

• 1:04:58Kirk Hamilton?

  Ah, but Jason, I knew you would say that and I was ready for you because that is not what I am talking about.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have, I don't have children and I have written out, I've read out loud to people many times.

• 1:05:07Jason Schreier?

  No, I, I, well, I didn't, I didn't suggest that that's what you were talking about. I just said you've, you had never done it before because you didn't have children. Cause having children naturally makes you do it. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:05:17Kirk Hamilton?

  No, it's not what I'm talking about. I have read many books to my nieces and love reading them books. It's a super fun thing to do.

• 1:05:24Jason Schreier?

  Oh, okay. So you're talking about something else entirely.

• 1:05:26Kirk Hamilton?

  Correct. And I will tell you what I am, what I am talking about. I am talking about reading a book, a novel, an actual like adult piece of fiction out loud to another person. For me, that's my wife Emily. We have been reading back through the Vorcosigan saga together at night and we take turns reading chapters to one another. And it has been so freaking cool that I wanted to talk about it on the show and just suggest it because I think there might be some people out there who will just hear this and think, you know, I've thought about doing that before and I'm gonna finally do it. Or I'd never thought about doing that before and I should try it. This is something I thought of doing a while ago, just, you know, that'd be kind of interesting. We could do that. That might be nice. And then just never followed through on it. But specific to the Vorcosigan saga,

• 1:06:11Kirk Hamilton?

  these books, I read these books because of Emily. I'd never heard of them. Like, I'm sure so many people out there, I was like, Vorcosigan, what the fuck? Like, what is that word? It sounds ridiculous. Like-

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're like me and Jason.

• 1:06:22Jason Schreier?

  That was my reaction.

• 1:06:24Kirk Hamilton?

  And so every time Emily would say that to me, she would be like, you know, you should read these books, the Vorcosigan books. And I was like, okay, I believe you. Maybe I'll read them one day. And then one day I finally started reading them and I was like, oh man, these are good. And then by four or five books in, I was obsessed with them. And you know, then of course talking about them on triple click and trying to get everyone to read them, just like Emily had to me. So my friend Sam is one of those people. I got him to read the books. And by the time he got to the fifth book, I reread it along with him and was like, dude, you know, we're talking about it so much anyways. He's kind of a natural podcaster. And I was like, we should make a podcast about this. We should just see how it goes. So we went back, we recorded one on the first book and it was great. And I was like, okay, we're gonna make a show. And that means that I'm going to reread this entire series. But I read them not that long ago. So that was

• 1:07:07Kirk Hamilton?

  when I decided, you know what? Emily hasn't read them since, you know, more than 10 years ago. What if we read through them together and we did it in this way? So we tend to read at night. We're in bed at night, you know, before going to bed. And if we're in bed early enough, we'll say, hey, let's read a chapter. And we take turns. One of us reads a chapter to the other one. So it is actually very different than reading a book to a child, which is very fun and a, a kind of great and very distinct kind of experience. But reading a like, you know, piece of fiction to your spouse or a friend or a significant other, just like super different. It's more like you're performing an audiobook. And then you also get to listen, which is something that you don't really get to do when you're reading books to your kids because every other chapter Emily reads to me. And so

• 1:07:52Kirk Hamilton?

  then I just get to sit and kind of have the audiobook experience of just like sitting still and listening to her. But then part of it is cool because there is, there's an intimacy to it because it is like someone you know, and you're telling a story to one another. But also it lets you share a book, which is something that can be kind of hard to do with another person, you know? You can have a book club or you can kind of both read the book and then talk about it. But it's not really the same as like watching a movie together or playing a game together or listening to an album or going to a concert together. Like, it's just a different thing where when you're taking turns reading chapters, you know, you'll then talk, we'll talk about it afterwards. We'll be like, oh man, that was so funny. Or I'd never realized that happened. And also I find I read a lot of books, but listening to one and also reading one out loud really causes me to consume

• 1:08:37Kirk Hamilton?

  the book differently. Like I internalize it differently. I take much longer with it. I catch so many things I wouldn't have caught. Some of that is because like we're taking notes and I'm leaving markers since I know that I'm going to be recording an episode about the book that we're reading. But also it's just, the process is different. You know, the process of reading a book out loud. It's just something that almost no one ever does. Like, and it's cool to pick a series like this. Like I'm still reading books to myself. Um, and that I find to be a really wonderful way to experience a book too. Like I wouldn't want to replace reading to myself with reading out loud to someone. It's nice to just be like, these books we read out loud to one another. And then during the day or whenever I'm reading, you know, whatever I want to read. But I highly recommend this. Like, I really recommend giving this a shot. It doesn't have to be to a spouse. It doesn't

• 1:09:22Kirk Hamilton?

  have to be with someone you live with. I could imagine a group of people getting together once a week and like three or four people even taking turns, reading a couple of chapters for like an hour or two while you have drinks. Like a kind of different way to do a book club where instead of everyone reading on their own and then coming together to talk or, you know, to have say, I didn't read the book, let's just drink and like talk about something else. Um, you can actually read the book at the book club. And I'm sure there are book clubs out there that do this, you know, or that listen to audiobooks together or something. Like I'm, I'm sure this is not a new idea. Telling stories to one another is like one of the oldest things humans have ever done. But I, it has felt revolutionary to me. It has felt incredibly cool. It's been a great way to experience specifically these books, the Vorcosigan books, which are just really fun. They're not too long.

• 1:10:05Kirk Hamilton?

  Each one like they have a lot of great new words that you're learning and just a lot of hard to pronounce sci-fi stuff. But also they're just these great stories about fun characters. You get to kind of act out a lot of really funny and, you know, enjoyable sequences. And it's just been a lot of fun. So my one more thing is reading out loud to another person and specifically another adult or another group of people, um, sort of adult fiction, as much as, as fun as it is to also read books to young children.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 1:10:33Jason Schreier?

  What's intimidating about those books is how many there are, like, knowing that, how much of a commitment it is. Less so than the name.

• 1:10:41Kirk Hamilton?

  I will say to that, the books are, these are not Brandon Sanderson epics. Each book is really pretty doable. You're a fast reader. You would read them very quickly. And Bujold is the master of just establishing the stakes, setting up the scenario, and then she just goes. Like, she's so good at this, at like, giving you a new setup and then just like, bam, pedal to the metal, let's go. And then you just tear through the book to the end. And they all work like that. So there isn't a book like, you know, a Sanderson book where you're like, oh, my god, it's been like 800 pages and we're still like, not even close to the end.

• 1:11:14Jason Schreier?

  Can you just read it to me?

• 1:11:16Kirk Hamilton?

  I would. I would love that. Maybe when we finish Big Walk, the three of us can start getting together and just like, reading through some books together.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  Just reading each other chapters of a book?

• 1:11:24Jason Schreier?

  We could do it in Big Walk. Just sit and campfire in Big Walk.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  We could just sit in Big Walk.

• 1:11:29Kirk Hamilton?

  Just can't get too far away from one another.

• 1:11:31Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, just have to stay close.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  It would just be a slightly different, different way of looking at each other than us looking at each other on this video call, but a similar vibe.

• 1:11:38Kirk Hamilton?

  It really would be a wonderful thing for us to do, to read a book together.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  It would be adorable.

• 1:11:41Kirk Hamilton?

  Maybe one day. Maybe when we're all retired, and we slow down in 20 years.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  Like, Golden Girls style, when we're all living in a house together? And we're not podcasting anymore in this, in this reality. We're just having cheesecake and reading books to each other.

• 1:11:51Kirk Hamilton?

  No, we would record it. It would be, it would be hot.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  Oh, my god. Okay. Fine, if you say so.

• 1:11:57Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, that would be good. All right. Well, that is another episode of Triple Click. This was a lot of fun. I hope some people out there will check out my new show. Definitely fiction. All the links are in the show notes. Go check it out. I'm very excited. And, uh, and yeah, I, I can't wait for some of you to check it out.

• 1:12:12Jason Schreier?

  Are you guys gonna be doing the entire Verkozian, Verkozigan saga and then doing, like, a new series?

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  Good question. Yeah.

• 1:12:22Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, we're gonna read the whole Verkozigan saga. That's 17 episodes. And then, we'll see. But yeah, that's kind of the plan, is that we'll read something else.

• 1:12:29Jason Schreier?

  So like, Miss Born after that, or like, something like that?

• 1:12:31Kirk Hamilton?

  I don't think we'll do Sanderson, but we'll pick some author and do some kind of series of books. Probably something smaller, just because this is a huge undertaking. And we'll do maybe a few smaller things, then commit to something bigger. There's a lot of options. But we'll see. I mean, maybe by then, we'll just be like, this was cool. This can just be a one-off. Like, we made this thing about the Verkozigan books, and now it just can exist. And that would be fine, too.

• 1:12:51Jason Schreier?

  You should do Six of Crows next.

• 1:12:54Kirk Hamilton?

  That would be fun. I've thought about it, about doing Bardugo, about just that duology. And that would just be like, two episodes, you know?

• 1:12:59Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, just two.

• 1:12:59Kirk Hamilton?

  Which, yeah, which would be a lot of fun. So we'll see. But, uh, for now, we're just launching the show. We're gonna see if, if anyone's even interested. So hopefully some people are. And, uh,

• 1:13:07Speaker 00

  I bet they will be.

• 1:13:08Kirk Hamilton?

  Give it, give it a listen.

• 1:13:09Jason Schreier?

  Cool.

• 1:13:09Kirk Hamilton?

  I hope so. And yeah, this was a fun episode, as always. And I will see the two of you next week.

• 1:13:15Jason Schreier?

  See you next time for some ZCOM talk.

• 1:13:18Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. Bye.

• 1:13:23Kirk Hamilton?

  Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network. And if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximumfun.org/join. Email us at [email protected] and find links to our merch store and our Discord server in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

• 1:14:21Jason Schreier?

  Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported

• 1:14:26Speaker 04

  directly

• 1:14:27Jason Schreier?

  by you.