Switch 2: Switch Harder

Nintendo officially announced the Switch 2 last week, and there's oh so much to discuss. Jason, Maddy, and Kirk give their initial impressions of Nintendo's next console, talk about how it will fit into a post-Steam Deck world, and debate whether Mario Kart is any good. Then they talk about PlayStation's failing live-service initiative. Plus: a bonus Burning Question!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Jason Schreier?

  You know, everyone's talking about this Switch 2, but not enough people are talking about Switch to the polls.

• 0:13Jason Schreier?

  Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week, we are talking about Nintendo's new console. What is the deal with that thing? Is it really just a Switch, but bigger and better or worse?

• 0:30Jason Schreier?

  I'm Jason Schreier.

• 0:31Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm Kirk Hamilton.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  And I'm Maddy Myers.

• 0:34Jason Schreier?

  Hello.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 0:36Jason Schreier?

  Welcome back to another episode. I hope you two are doing just fine on this cold winter day.

• 0:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  You know.

• 0:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Just ignoring everything else. Yeah, I'm doing great. Me, like me personally.

• 0:50Jason Schreier?

  Ignoring the rest of the world. Yeah, you personally.

• 0:52Kirk Hamilton?

  Laser focused on the weather and the screen in front of me.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Like, if we're just talking about me and like how I am, then yeah, everything's good.

• 1:00Jason Schreier?

  Well, video games are pretty cool. We should talk about them.

• 1:03Kirk Hamilton?

  They sure are, yeah.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're cool.

• 1:05Jason Schreier?

  If you, if you two like getting a distraction from all of this

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 1:11Jason Schreier?

  and listening to us talk about video games every week, then you should become a member of Maximum Fun, the network on which our podcast is on, on which our podcast is on, on which our podcast lives.

• 1:23Kirk Hamilton?

  You're a writer, not an editor. It's fine.

• 1:26Jason Schreier?

  I'll pass that to Kirk and Kirk will handle making that into something.

• 1:29Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, we'll work on that.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 1:30Jason Schreier?

  See, this is why we need to, we need money because Kirk, we have to pay Kirk to edit our words into coherence.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, because Kirk normally edits all of our words, like the order of them in every episode. He's really meticulously.

• 1:43Jason Schreier?

  Every episode takes four months.

• 1:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Right, I have to, I have to take the extra time to take Jason's mistakes and like loop them over and over and over so people really hear them a bunch of times.

• 1:52Jason Schreier?

  That, well, that's, yes, that's the bonus content you'll get. And speaking of bonus content, we have a lot of cool stuff that you'll get if you become a member, including a fresh, hot take, Beans Cast, AKA Spoiler Cast, on Metaphor Refontasia, which the three of us have recorded and will be up shortly. For bonus feed subscribers for members of the show. And you also get to help make the show possible because we don't have ads. We just are able to do this because of all you fine folks out there. So to those of you who are already members, thank you very much. And if you are not, it is never too late to join. Go to maximumfun.org/join and you too can become a member. Okay, before we get started with today's main topic, I have a little bonus treat for you guys,

• 2:37Jason Schreier?

  which is that we got a question for last week's that I wanted to do for last week's burning questions episode, but didn't get to for reasons that'll make sense in a second. So let me read out the question and then I will explain the deal. So this is a question from Dan and Dan says, hi y'all. Why do you so many modern games include sections where you slide down a slope? Whether it's Jedi Fallen Order, Final Fantasy 16, or Dragon Age The Veilguard? I feel like my character is always sliding down a gravelly slope.

• 3:10Jason Schreier?

  Is it just to hide a loading screen or is it something else? Thanks, Dan. And you two were wondering about this too, right?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17Jason Schreier?

  What's with all this?

• 3:17Speaker 02

  None of us had the answer, but it's true.

• 3:20Jason Schreier?

  It's also, it like requires a whole bespoke animation of you like sliding down. So it seems like I have a left. So I texted a game developer who worked on the Jedi games and asked him, hey, what's the deal with slopes? And he was very, very graciously gave some time to answer this question. So this is from Justin Perez, a designer formerly at Respawn, now at Giant Skull. And he gave me permission to quote him and use his name. And he says, I'm going to read you a few of his texts. He says, "It's primarily a more interactive, action-driven version of a one-way door. Speaking for Jedi specifically, though I'm pretty confident it would apply to other examples as well, it was somewhere we didn't want you to go back.

• 4:03Jason Schreier?

  We didn't want you to be able to go back the way you came. It was also another way to break up the standard cadence of walk, run, jump actions and a change-up to mix into the platforming gameplay. It feels good to mix and match traversal moves and a slide, just like wall run was a useful tool to create opportunities." To chain them together. In the context of Dan's question, though, mainly the main, the one way thing, and also regarding the modern games piece of the question, it's probably also because we actually don't need the same loading screens we used to, hidden or otherwise. So a fast moving slide is a way for us to push you quickly into the next section where we used to just have to make you wait to load that next chunk of the level in. Now it's already ready for you to go to immediately.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  That's really cool. It makes sense.

• 4:50Jason Schreier?

  Kind of the opposite, the opposite of the, the door.

• 4:53Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, that does make sense.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Cause you are seeing where you're going. So of course it's there when you get there and it feels like you're in motion. I mean, I, I get it. I didn't really think about the fact that it is also a one-way door. Of course you can't go back up.

• 5:06Jason Schreier?

  Well, that's the thing. It's like one of those things where you see behind the curtain.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:10Jason Schreier?

  Oh, games are just constantly manipulating you. And it's like, oh, we want you to be funneled into this one area and you can't go back. So this is how we're gonna do it. And you don't think about it because it's a cool slide.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:22Jason Schreier?

  Interesting, right? So yeah, so this, this, I had to wait for, he didn't respond to me until after we recorded last week's episode, which is why, um, which is why we didn't get to that. But here we go. Um, so thanks to Dan for asking that question and thanks for Justin Perez for answering it. Now let's get on to the show. Last week Kirk won a prediction.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Big news.

• 5:43Jason Schreier?

  Nintendo announced the Switch 2.

• 5:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Nintendo opened their announcement by saying, congratulations Kirk Hamilton is a triple clutch.

• 5:50Jason Schreier?

  Could you imagine? It was like big confetti. It was like Kirk, this one's for you. Um, it was a two and a half minute teaser trailer that showed off the new and improved Switch model and promised more to come, much more to come on April 2. Um, we saw a couple of things. There was a new Mario Kart in there. There were, um, uh, Joy-Cons that seemed to snap with magnets instead of those rails. Uh, it's bigger. It's got a, presumably it'll have better specs. Um, because it's been eight years since the, uh, since the Switch came out.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  It's actually gonna have worse specs. It's crazy. They're making it worse.

• 6:32Jason Schreier?

  Bigger, but it's worse.

• 6:36Jason Schreier?

  And it's got a bunch of other things. I don't know. What did you two think of the Switch 2 reveal? Does it make you pumped for a new console?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, I can't help it. I enjoyed it a lot. I watched it. I had a good time watching it. I also happen to really like Mario Kart games, by the way, and that's the only game they showed us in the reveal. And given the fact that the reveal was structured, kind of like a just a hardware reveal, it really didn't seem like we were going to get any games shown off, very different structurally than the Switch 1 reveal that had a bunch of games, a bunch of examples of people walking around town and going to roof deck parties, playing the Switch. This was like, you know, blank background, just looking at the device. So the fact that we got a Mario Kart reveal was exciting to me personally. But if you don't like Mario Kart, then I guess you might be somebody out there who's

• 7:29Speaker 02

  like, why isn't there a new Mario game or Animal Crossing?

• 7:33Kirk Hamilton?

  Did you say if you don't like Mario Kart?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't know. Do these people exist? I don't. It's a great point, Kirk. What am I saying? Everyone likes it.

• 7:40Jason Schreier?

  I'm not like a huge Mario Kart person. I'll play it and have fun playing it, but I wouldn't like, it's not something I would go to nor like if I had a friend over and they wanted to play it.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  People are neutral on it.

• 7:50Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, I'm neutral on Mario Kart.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  I don't know. So I had a good time watching it.

• 7:53Kirk Hamilton?

  Bing. Kirk here, editing the episode. And I know, I know there's a lot of people out there who don't like Mario Kart. That was just like a crack that I made. It was just kind of a joke. I definitely know that you're out there. I shouldn't make that kind of joke anymore. It just struck me as sort of funny in the moment. Anyways, if you're out there and you don't like Mario Kart, I see you. I know that you exist. It's okay. Bing.

• 8:15Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, to your point, Matty, it's interesting comparing that. I rewatched the first one a few times and then I watched this one a few times. And it's really interesting making that comparison point because for the Switch 1, it had come out just after the Wii U, which was kind of this weird hybrid console where it was, there was a tablet attached to the console and you could use the tablet to play games like on the go, but only within the

• 8:37Speaker 02

  confines of your apartment.

• 8:39Jason Schreier?

  A short radius of the, of the console. So you could take it to the bathroom, which is nice, but you can actually, and then so they, when they Announced the Switch, they really had to show what it was. And so that teaser trailer that they first announced for that wa- was a really good selling point for it. It was like, okay, you instantly understood that this person was playing the new Zelda game, then they took their console on the go, and then they brought it on an airplane and played Skyrim and so on and so forth. With this one, they didn't need to do that. They just needed to communicate that this is just like a Switch, except better and bigger. And they even stuck in a screen that was like, "We'll play all of your old Switch games," or "most of them," it said, which I think is just like, the caveat here, I think, is

• 9:21Jason Schreier?

  that it won't play like Labo and other things that require the very specific form of the first Joy-Con, because these are new Joy-Cons. So I don't think you have to worry about like, your old, I don't know, Shovel Knight not being playable on the Switch 2. But yeah, but all they had to communicate this time was, "Hey, it's a Switch, but more... but worse."

• 9:43Speaker 02

  It's a Switch, but it sucks now. It's way worse. But Kirk, what did you think about it?

• 9:48Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm excited for it. I'm excited to be excited about the Switch again. I think, you know, it's been a little while, really since the Steam Deck came out, since I sort of just replaced the Switch as my go-to handheld for most games. It's been a while since I've been that excited about the Switch. I was excited about some Switch games, you know, Tears of the Kingdom comes to mind as maybe the most recent one that really got me excited. But it's been a while since it felt like Nintendo was really in the game. And I think, you know, that's just due to the somewhat extended feeling wait for this new console. Like, it's kind of felt like Nintendo was waiting too. I don't know if that was the case or not, but there was just that sense like, wow, they've got a lot cooking, but they're waiting.

• 10:31Kirk Hamilton?

  And then, you know, even things like Echoes of Wisdom would come out and just actually not run perfectly on the Switch. And there was just this feeling like, oh, these developers might be kind of bummed that it's coming out on the old hardware because they maybe prepped it for the new one. And so there's just been this feeling for a while that Nintendo is kind of in a holding position. And now they will, you know, leave that holding position and get back into the game, I think, in a pretty exciting way. Exciting way, or hopefully knowing Nintendo in a pretty exciting way. So I'm excited for that and I'm happy. I'm fine with them not making any huge changes. I really like the Switch, so fine for them to release a new one that's just more powerful.

• 11:09Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, it's funny. I feel the same way that I'm fine for them to just be like, hey, it's a Switch, but better. But at the same time, a little part of me can't help but be disappointed that Nintendo hasn't come out with some big surprise and maybe they're winning.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Something bizarre, like something we none of us understand at all, like alarm or two or whatever.

• 11:27Jason Schreier?

  I mean, sometimes that stuff is fun. There are a few hints that there might be something like that. There's a mysterious button on the right Joy-Con that was that the was shown in the trailer, but didn't have a label. There are rumors on the internet that it's like a C button and it has some sort of social features attached to it. But there was it was notably unmarked in the reveal trailer. And then the other big kind of quirky hardware rumor is that the Joy-Cons have these infrared sensors that can make them function like computer mice. And in fact, in the trailer, they hinted at that too, where like the the controllers were kind of placed on a table, a surface of some sort and moved around as if they were mice.

• 12:10Jason Schreier?

  So those seem to be the two quirky, innovative elements of this. And maybe that will be enough to like add a whole host of new, cool ideas that the first Switch didn't have.

• 12:22Kirk Hamilton?

  I think it might be. And also, yeah, I've seen some of the complaining about, you know, oh, this isn't Nintendo at their most inventive, you know, people who love it when Nintendo comes out with a genuinely weird console with a bunch of new ideas. Though it is worth keeping in mind that Nintendo does really well when they do iteration, like the Super Nintendo, the Game Boy Advance. I would even maybe, to me at least, the 3DS kind of just feels like an iteration, even though I know it had the 3D.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:49Kirk Hamilton?

  The 3D just wound up being such an inessential part of it. And it was mostly just doing what the DS did so well and that made the DS so popular, just in a slightly more powerful, you know, but but very similar kind of a system. So like, I'm happy for Nintendo to do this, like, you know. Video games benefit from iteration in software and in hardware. And Nintendo is nothing if not inventive on the software side. There's also, you know, there's one little thing that I noticed about the Steam or the about the Switch 2 that I don't know, I don't know what'll come of it, but it could open the door to a lot of really cool stuff is that the system has a second USB port.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:28Kirk Hamilton?

  And that actually opens the door to a lot of really cool stuff, to just using accessories. At the very least, you know, I could see them selling like a USB C headset that does audio and also has a microphone. So there's like integrated chat, allowing for more online and maybe just a better integrated online experience than the Switch 1 had, which was of course infamously terrible and you had to use the phone for, or you had to like use the phone app for chat.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  It was totally. But there's a separate app on your phone so you can play multiplayer and talk to your friends.

• 13:56Kirk Hamilton?

  Now you can be charging the Switch and also plug into it if you're, you know, if you're playing remotely and, you know, who knows? They haven't shown the accessories for this, but I could imagine maybe the the new Pro Controller will have some kind of a plug in it that'll allow for that.

• 14:09Jason Schreier?

  What if you could charge your iPhone on the Switch 2?

• 14:12Kirk Hamilton?

  Right. I mean, probably, right?

• 14:13Speaker 02

  That's what it's for. You're right. Yeah.

• 14:15Kirk Hamilton?

  And then, you know, you go beyond that and it's like, you can imagine Nintendo releasing all kinds of cool accessories. And you just picture things like, what's it called? Ring Fit Adventures?

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:23Kirk Hamilton?

  That game, which maybe you've played that, right?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  I love that game.

• 14:26Kirk Hamilton?

  Which I gather is like really cool.

• 14:26Jason Schreier?

  I played, I played a ton of that too. Yeah.

• 14:28Kirk Hamilton?

  Oh, you played that too. So there's a lot they can do that's inventive outside of the console itself needing to be some weird freak show, you know, that no one wanted, which I'm, so I'm kind of, I'm excited about the possibilities there.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm with you, especially since the weird freak show element of the Switch 2, the mouse potential of the Joy-Cons is something that I think is completely unhinged and makes no sense at all. Like, I'm excited and love it in the sense that it's the most Nintendo idea ever because I'm like, why would you do this? Why would I want that? Like ergonomically, my living room is in no way set up for that and I have no plans for it to be at any point in the future. Just patently absurd, but I do love the idea just because I'm like, great, there's gonna be some sort of. Bizarre functionality here that one specific Switch game, like in a one-two Switch or a Wii

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Sports situation will launch with it. It will be amazing in that one game and then no one will ever use it again because everyone will be like, why? Why does this exist?

• 15:32Kirk Hamilton?

  At the very least, it does strike me as something that will be in one game and at launch and then will never turn up again. That maybe not only in that I can think of it as being good for aiming.

• 15:42Jason Schreier?

  For shooters. Yeah, that's what I was about to say.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  But this is what I'm saying ergonomically. Like, do you really want to play all of Metroid Prime Force sitting at a desk? Like, I mean, I'll do it, I guess, but...

• 15:54Jason Schreier?

  You could presumably imagine like holding the Switch with your left hand with that Joy-Con plugged in and then your right one like sitting next to you. You would just see kind of a Surface next to you. You wouldn't need to be at a desk.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Are they gonna sell a Surface that I put on my couch?

• 16:10Kirk Hamilton?

  This is a good opportunity to remind everybody that Jason likes to play Switch games with the two Joy-Con in separate hands.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Oh my god, that's right. I forgot about that. Jason, Jason games with his hands at his side on the couch with one Joy-Con each hand.

• 16:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Or at least, or at least you had mentioned playing some games like that.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  You have.

• 16:27Jason Schreier?

  You guys are thinking of the Wii. That's what I did with the Wii remote. Is that I kept them like in a weird position.

• 16:34Kirk Hamilton?

  I have a memory of you talking about the Joy-Con.

• 16:36Jason Schreier?

  Maybe with the Switch ones too, but that's only, I play it so rarely on the TV. Like, usually I'm playing it in the handle. So, okay, so I want to get the kind of the elephant in the room, which is that Kirk now has twice, including once accidentally mentioned the word "steamed game." And I think that the thing about the Switch 2 that is like the biggest warning sign for Nintendo is that it's entering a way more crowded landscape that it created because of the Switch's success.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:04Jason Schreier?

  So in 2017...

• 17:07Jason Schreier?

  The Switch right out the gate was a massive hit for multiple reasons. One was the hardware itself. Another was launching with one of the greatest games of all time and Breath of the Wild on it. So that helped sell some systems. And then Mario Kart shortly afterwards just like set it on fire. But at that time, like any time an indie game developer would announce a game, the first question would be, so when is it coming to Switch? And what would happen is in that first year of development, and I've done a little bit of reporting on this, there were some games that came out, some indie games and smaller games that came out that like became hugely successful on the Switch that might not have otherwise because there was such a massive like rabid fan base of Switch owners who wanted stuff to play on it. The Flame and the Flood was one of those games.

• 17:51Kirk Hamilton?

  Shovel Knight?

• 17:52Jason Schreier?

  Enter the dungeon, Shovel Knight. Although Shovel Knight had been popular before that, but yes, it was big. It was a Switch launch.

• 17:58Kirk Hamilton?

  And Hollow Knight, of course. Yeah, I was gonna say Hollow Knight. Which was successful, but then truly smashed.

• 18:02Jason Schreier?

  Exactly, exactly. And that was 2018. So that was the second year of the Switch. So things have changed. Like now, when an indie game gets announced, people are like, so how does it run on the Steam Deck? Like, it's a very different conversation. And the Steam Deck, even though it doesn't offer the Nintendo library, the Nintendo first-party library, it does offer a lot of advantages that the Switch doesn't, including most pivotally that you can have your entire Steam library on there seamlessly and just go back and forth. And a lot of people have these kind of massive Steam libraries that they've been building up. And Steam, of course, has a whole lot of games that don't need to be separately ported to the Switch in order to run on your Steam Deck. So the Steam Deck has a lot of big advantages.

• 18:43Jason Schreier?

  We've also seen Xbox and PlayStation are both reportedly, well, Xbox has said they're entering the handheld realm. PlayStation is reportedly re-entering the handheld realm as well. It's a different landscape. And while I think Nintendo can still find a lot of success because they still have Mario Kart and Animal Crossing and Zelda and so on and so forth. I don't think it's quite the same market where they can come out with this thing and everyone will just be like hungry for stuff to play on it and and buying it up every time it hits store shelves. I mean, just as an example, like from my own life anecdotally, it used to be 2018, 2019 or so that like anytime someone sent me a code, a developer was like, hey, I want you to cover your game. Can you check this out? I would be like,

• 19:28Jason Schreier?

  sure, send me a code on Switch. And now I'm always just like, no, send me a code on PC and I'll just like switch between my desktop and my Steam Deck. So I don't know. Granted, the Switch has sold 150 million units and the Steam Deck is only in the in the millions, possibly 10 million at this point. So way different install bases at this point, but like, still, it feels different than it did back then. What do you guys make of the landscape for Nintendo right now?

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think what's what's really interesting about what you said is the fact that Nintendo created this. Like Nintendo came up with this. And I remember when the Switch was announced, I was like, I don't really know if I want like a big weird handheld. Like, I don't really understand what this is.

• 20:11Kirk Hamilton?

  Meanwhile, I was like, all I want is a big weird handheld. Give me it.

• 20:15Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, me too.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Okay, but then as soon as I had it in my hands and I understood like the full potential of what it can be, I was like, oh, my God, this is exactly what I want, which is like always the Nintendo trick, right? Like, they show you something in a commercial and you're like, that looks weird and I don't understand how it fits into my life. Like, even seeing people at the rooftop Mario Kart party, I was like, I don't understand if that's really gonna be me. I've never played a Switch on a rooftop. I feel like I should. Anyway, doesn't matter. I it's it is different now because I'm like, well, I have multiple handhelds in my life. I can play any game I want on the handheld device of my choosing. I have PS5 Remote Play on my Steam Deck. I can play Xbox games on my Steam Deck with the XP Play app that I mentioned a few episodes back. It's extremely easy

• 21:01Speaker 02

  for me to do that now. Like, every game in my entire house that I own, I can play on a handheld device. So the Switch just doesn't feel unique anymore. And I don't know how many people feel that way, or if that's like gonna drive people to Buy it or not, but it does seem relevant, especially given that the Switch 2 is purely an upgrade situation. Like if we leave aside the weird fun aspect of the mouse part of the Joy-Con and like other, you know, C button reveals to come, that the draw of the Switch 2 is like, well, it's a more powerful switch. It's going to play Echoes of Wisdom or Future Mario Kart with 24 Racers or whatever you can imagine. And in a more, you know, it's going to be more possible to play these like high, high intensity video games on it.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  But is that enough to get people to buy it? I'm not sure, especially if they already own a Switch and the Switch is like one of the most bestselling consoles of all time. So people already have it. They have it.

• 21:57Jason Schreier?

  Not only that, but Nintendo hasn't yet run into the kind of the same massive wall that Sony and Microsoft both just ran into, which is that everybody's can play Fortnite on their old consoles. So they have no reason to upgrade. Nintendo hasn't at that point yet because the Switch came out in 2017. Switch plays Fortnite, PS5 and Xbox Series did. They both came out in 2020. Neither has surpassed their predecessor in large part because people are just playing their old games on the PS4 and have no need to upgrade. And so if you own a Switch and you already have Mario Kart 8 and you're already a Fortnite and you're already a Minecraft, do you really need to pay $450 or whatever it is to upgrade?

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:42Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I think it kind of goes both ways for Nintendo. Like the fact that the Switch 2 plays the same games that you already have for the Switch 1 is kind of a nice incentive to upgrade whenever you decide to, because you can just play all those same games on the Switch 2 and then presumably any games that are only on the Switch 2, which will probably be the most exciting games. And then to me at least, I don't know, it seems to me that the Switch is just so locked in with families and families with kids that the Steam Deck like doesn't really provide an alternative there. I mean, I'm really kind of just looking at my nieces and sort of the way that playing games works for them. But like the idea of them playing games on a Steam Deck is just like, it's just not even a thing where like.

• 23:25Jason Schreier?

  No, you're right. You're right. Were they excited about the Switch 2? Like, do they know about it?

• 23:31Kirk Hamilton?

  Uh, we haven't talked about it, actually. I'm sure they are. I mean, they're excited about games in general, so I'm sure they are. So anyways, yeah, I it's I think that there are a lot of families out there who are just like, oh, yeah, Switch 2, sick, we'll get one for Christmas, like, and it's just gonna be like totally like a done deal. There's not gonna be any like, oh, well, PC gaming, etc., partly because, oh, we can just play all the games we already have, plus there's a new Mario or a new Mario Kart or whatever, and then whatever comes down the road. Like Nintendo has been very good to a lot of those families. So, and that's just families. I think there are also just a lot of people out there who just play games on Switch and are like, yeah, I'll just buy the new one, it plays all the games I already have, and it's more powerful. So that's a big advantage for them, despite, like you said, the fact that it's a more crowded field, and especially for like, capital G gamers

• 24:14Kirk Hamilton?

  or whatever, like the core market, there is some more competition now with the Steam Deck and the Rogue Ally and whatever, all these other handhelds.

• 24:21Jason Schreier?

  The capital G gamers are the ones who are like, who don't play games, they just post about.

• 24:27Kirk Hamilton?

  That's true. Lowercase g gamers can use Steam Decks. We all have Steam Decks and we're lowercase g gamers.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  It's true, it's true. But still, like, the the more intense audience that owns multiple consoles, as opposed to somebody who's like, all I have is a Switch, and I only bought it for a Mario Kart, or I only bought it for Animal Crossing, which represents, I think, a pretty sizable percentage of those millions of Switch owners, which, there's nothing wrong with that. I I think that makes perfect sense. And those people, I I I'm kind of being convinced by your argument, Kirk, that those people might just be like, well, yeah, of course, I want the next Mario Kart. I bought this one so I could have that other Mario Kart, and now I'm gonna get the next one. But it's Nintendo, so they're probably gonna put the new Mario Kart on the Switch One.

• 25:09Jason Schreier?

  No, no way. No.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  You don't think so?

• 25:11Jason Schreier?

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Oh, that would be new for them, though.

• 25:13Jason Schreier?

  Well, the whole point of this.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Because historically, they have put, like, even Breath of the Wild was on the Wii U.

• 25:17Kirk Hamilton?

  Well, the new Mario Kart has like 24 racers or something.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 25:20Kirk Hamilton?

  Like, it's like a more advanced game.

• 25:22Jason Schreier?

  And Matty, that's just because it was announced for Wii U, and they felt like they couldn't take it back. No, there's no way. The new Mario Kart will be a Switch 2 exclusive. I can almost guarantee you of that.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:31Kirk Hamilton?

  I I think that it's worth keeping in mind that we're kind of talking in a vacuum here. And like Nintendo, for all we know, has really been like loading it up.

• 25:38Jason Schreier?

  Right.

• 25:38Kirk Hamilton?

  And is, and in April, it's just gonna be like. Bam, like new 3D Mario, like bam, Mario Kart looks totally sick, like three other things, like Splatoon 4 coming next year, like a bunch of other stuff. And it's like, oh, my God, like, this is so exciting. Plus, a ton of third-party games that run on it. And it's gonna be like, I think the same people that we're talking about, who like just play games on Switch, may well see that if that's the way that it goes and just be like, oh, yeah, of course, obviously, we'll just buy this, you know, when they have a bundle over the holidays. It's like, it's an easy, easy decision.

• 26:08Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, if you're a Switch owner, maybe now you get to play Elden Ring, or like Red Dead Redemption 2, and stuff like that.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, which would be pretty cool. Like, that opens all those bigger games.

• 26:19Jason Schreier?

  Um, yeah, I mean, something that I think is really, really worth pointing out here, and is a really big strength for Nintendo this time around, is that everything about this is crystal clear. Um, for all of the, and I've seen a lot of hot takes about like, oh, Nintendo is missing its like innovativeness, like innovation, like there's no surprising and delighting here. I will never forget sitting in, at E3 2011, I believe it was, sitting next to Kezza McDonald, and, uh, we were at the Nintendo E3 presentation, and they announced the Wii U, and Reggie came up on stage, and they showed off this weird thing, and it said Wii U, and Kezza turning, turns to me, and she's like, was that a new console? Or an accessory for the Wii?

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Oh, no, yeah.

• 27:04Jason Schreier?

  And that was Nintendo's eternal problem. To this day, I think most people don't even know that they released a console called the Wii U. With this, this is fun fact, the first time in Nintendo's history that they've ever announced a new console that has like a 2 at the end, that is like a successive, uh, release, as opposed to like the era of new 3DS and 3DS Lite and new Super Nintendo.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Super Nintendo, yeah.

• 27:27Jason Schreier?

  Uh, this, Game Boy Advance was a little bit clearer, at least, but like, they did some super confusing branding stuff. This is very clear, and it will be very clear, um, I imagine in April, when they're like, all of these games are for Switch 2 only, you cannot play these on Switch 1. I think they will make that crystal clear, because if they don't, then like the selling point of this thing will be nil. Like, they can't do what Sony did and do the whole cross-gen release strategy, and I, I think it's very doubtful that, like, the games they plan on releasing aren't gonna run on Switch 1. They won't be, uh, Switch 1 won't be powerful enough for it. Um, this is all speculative, by the way. This is not inside info, but this is...

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:03Jason Schreier?

  I'm just saying that for a reset era for when they make a thread about this.

• 28:07Kirk Hamilton?

  My sense is kind of that the Switch will still have a like fairly healthy life for several more years just because like indies are going to keep releasing on it, right? Like there will be a lot of people with a good incentive to just be like, well, a ton of people still have Switches. I'm going to put this game out on Switch and Switch 2 and Steam and wherever else.

• 28:21Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, and hopefully it's easy for some, for a game company to just be like, okay, we're just going to release this on the Switch ecosystem. And then it'll kind of like it is on PlayStation where it's just kind of like, it'll say, this is a PS5 version and this is a PS4 version, et cetera, et cetera. So hopefully that is all pretty seamless. But yeah, I mean, the brand identity of this thing, like from the beginning of that trailer, it was very clear. Like you see that Switch? Yep, this is different. This is bigger. It's a new one. It says, it has a two on the controller. It has a two on the system. It's like really trying to show you this thing is new. This is a new console. If you want to switch to, if you want to play new part Mario Kart, you get a switch to.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and you make a good point in comparing it to the Wii U, which has really been something I've been thinking about this entire time is how the Wii U is like the comparison point that I hope this. I hope it isn't a comparison point. I hope we're looking at a Game Boy Advance situation, a Super Nintendo, list goes on. Pick your Nintendo iteration. That's obviously what I would prefer here is a console where I feel like it's an actual upgrade. It has a reason to exist. But I keep thinking about the Wii U because it's so recent and because it just felt like such an example of a notable failure.

• 29:34Jason Schreier?

  13 years ago.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Recent. I mean, it's like the most recent one before the Switch itself. So it is recent enough in my memory anyway. But yeah, it is, it is also an example of a, a thing where they were trying something that they hadn't fully baked yet with that tablet. And at the time, again, I was like, I don't understand the point of this. And it never made sense until the Switch one came out. And then I was like, oh, that's what they were trying to do. I get it now. So the Wii was just like the weird, the weird one. And it's not going to be an expectation setting thing where we need to compare everything to that.

• 30:08Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, with each subsequent Nintendo console, it becomes clear that the Wii is very much. The outlier.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:14Kirk Hamilton?

  Most Nintendo systems are just a thing that plays games in a controller with buttons on it that you use to play the games.

• 30:20Jason Schreier?

  Well, no, that's not true. I mean, the N64 came out and it had, it was like cartridges when the rest of the industry was going to discs. And also it had this controller with like three.

• 30:31Kirk Hamilton?

  Compared to the Wii Remote and the motion control.

• 30:35Jason Schreier?

  Every, every, every, I mean, the DS was like blue, like everyone was like a touchscreen. Like what the hell?

• 30:41Kirk Hamilton?

  Of course. Yes. You can get, I don't mean to say that they're all identical or anything. I just mean that like by and large Nintendo is at its best when you're just like playing games with a controller. Some of those controllers are more similar than other ones, but like the Wii was just like dramatically different than pretty much any other Nintendo console. When you zoom out to a certain distance.

• 30:59Jason Schreier?

  Sure. The point I was thinking was just that a lot of them have been innovative in, in other ways. And again, I mean, in a few months, we could be talking about how like this weird mouse thing has really changed everything. And like, who knows what kind of possibilities it will bring to the table. Miyamoto has some Mario Paint too, and we're all, all of our minds are blown.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Seems like a logical use for the mouse. I've seen that floated a lot, but every time somebody's like, Matty, Metroid Prime 4 with the mouse. I'm like, I don't want to play that game with a freaking mouse. Like I, I'm worried about my arm.

• 31:30Kirk Hamilton?

  I played Metroid Hunters with the stylus and that was pretty cool.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:35Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, you never know. I mean, it's rare for a Nintendo game to come out and like it not to feel good in your hand. So like, I think if they're doing a mouse, it'll probably, it'll probably work. It'll probably be.

• 31:47Kirk Hamilton?

  You can imagine for Mario Maker and also for like, you know, like Zelda Maker, like some of those other Maker type games. In addition to Mario Paint and all of the like more user generated creative games that yeah, a mouse could be incredibly useful. And there, it's just like a subset of Nintendo sickos who do amazing things in those games. Giving those sickos the sicko tools they need. I am all in favor.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, same.

• 32:09Jason Schreier?

  Or like PC ports that like are way better with a mouse, RTS games or like other kind of like, I don't know, Civ 7, that's probably going to be on the switch too.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  They gotta put out some type of gamer pillow. If they're gonna make me play Civ 7 with that Joy-Con, I need something. I gotta do something on the side of the couch.

• 32:29Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm picturing, you remember the, the attachment for the 3DS with the insane second, like thumb wheel that you could stick onto it?

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:37Kirk Hamilton?

  Like they'll come out with some kind of lap thing.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:40Kirk Hamilton?

  That's like the licensed Nintendo mouse pad.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Like a TV tray, like a licensed Nintendo TV tray.

• 32:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, right, exactly.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  But instead of like eating my meal off of it, I'm playing Civ 7 on the Switch 2 and I'm frantically clicking the Joy-Con. I, I really am excited to feel it in my hands. Because like, that's the thing, is like, just actually touching it. And it's, it's bigger, which I actually approve of as well. We haven't really talked about like the size of it, but those Joy-Cons, the original ones, always felt a little fiddly to me. So I'm also happy to see like those other ergonomic changes while I'm talking about ergonomics so much. They look more comfortable to my eye. I think they probably will be. The button to detach the Joy-Cons is a lot bigger now. I'm excited about that. Another rumor that's been going around is that there'll be Hall effect sticks for those joysticks.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  I'm really hoping that's true to prevent Joy-Con drift, which has been kind of the bane of Nintendo's existence throughout the Switch 1 lifecycle. So I'm just excited for like a very literal hardware upgrade here in terms of everything working better, having more longevity, feeling better in my hands. Like those Joy-Cons are little and I have little hands.

• 33:46Kirk Hamilton?

  Yes.

• 33:47Jason Schreier?

  Matty, did you ever play Mario Paint on the Super Nintendo? Cause it came with a mouse and.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Oh my God, it did?

• 33:54Jason Schreier?

  Oh yeah, that's right.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  I never played it, that's amazing.

• 33:57Jason Schreier?

  I have those.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  That's a good sign for Mario Paint to come out then, if there was a previous mouse.

• 34:03Jason Schreier?

  Oh yeah, I'm, I'm so, if there's like a Mario Paint 2, I'll, I will play the hell out of it. I've played so many, so many hours of that game. They, they have this like musical, like conducting thing. Oh my God, it's so good.

• 34:15Kirk Hamilton?

  Well, and again, for kids, I mean, man, like my nieces will love that shit if they come out with a Mario Paint game for the Switch. Like every kid is gonna play that, like, and that, again, like, it's just such a great selling point for the console, if that's what they do.

• 34:28Jason Schreier?

  It's exciting. So yeah, well, we'll put a pin in this discussion because it's still so early. April 2nd is the Nintendo Direct that they've said where they're gonna talk more about. This thing and that's when we can expect like the real low down, the release date, the price, the launch lineup, like what teases they have for future games coming to this thing. That'll be really exciting. So we'll, we'll count down the days until then. Real quick story before we move on to another quick topic, which is that last Wednesday, do you remember there were all those rumors flying around like, oh, Nintendo Switch 2 is going to be revealed tomorrow, like on Thursday. So on Wednesday I went into the city and I was working at a

• 35:09Jason Schreier?

  coffee shop for a bit and I kid you guys not, I'm sitting there at this kind of big table in Starbucks and next to me, a group of teenage girls, three of them sits down, they pull out a Switch, they prop it on the table, pull off the Joy-Cons and start playing Mario Kart.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 35:25Jason Schreier?

  Like on the rooftop in that commercial.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Like in the commercials.

• 35:28Kirk Hamilton?

  Was there a filming crew behind them?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Were there red solo cups and were they all like Benetton ad beautiful?

• 35:36Jason Schreier?

  I was like, this is an omen. The Switch 2 is definitely getting announced.

• 35:39Kirk Hamilton?

  That's very funny.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  And you were right. It was an omen. You were part of an ARG, actually. I was Nintendo telling you something.

• 35:45Jason Schreier?

  I'm going to be in the next reveal trailer.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Just in the background.

• 35:48Jason Schreier?

  So real quick, we don't have a ton more time, but we should talk a little bit about the other big news from last week, which is that a website called Bloombar- Barg? Bloombar?

• 36:00Kirk Hamilton?

  Oh yeah, I think.

• 36:01Jason Schreier?

  Bloombargo?

• 36:02Kirk Hamilton?

  It's like a, it's like a, kind of like a Substack thing, right?

• 36:04Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, it's a Substack. It's a billionaire's Substack.

• 36:06Kirk Hamilton?

  They're building it out, but it's a...

• 36:08Speaker 02

  I think they're gonna make it.

• 36:09Jason Schreier?

  Bloomberg News reported, some guy named Jason, I don't know, whatever. Bloomberg News reported that PlayStation canceled two more games, two more live service games from Sony Bend, which was the developer behind Days Gone and the SOCOM games way back in the day, and also Blue Point, which is the developer behind the Demon's Souls remake and the Shadow of the Colossus remake and was purchased by Sony a couple of years ago. And Blue Point is especially noteworthy, I think, because for many years now, since Demon's Souls, people have been theorizing and speculating about what they've been working on. And yes, as I reported last week, it turns out it's a live service game. This one was a God of War live service game. The Sony Ben game was a new IP.

• 36:55Jason Schreier?

  But it's worth noting PlayStation said in 2022 that they were going to release a dozen live service games by 2025. And I think they've released two, maybe? Does Destiny count? Helldivers 2, they released. That was a hit. That one, wow. Concord, Concord they released.

• 37:15Jason Schreier?

  Did they though? Was pulled from stores after less than two weeks. And then they canceled a bunch. Canceled Naughty Dogs, Last of Us Online, canceled Spider-Man Online, canceled Twisted Metal, canceled a London Studio game, canceled these two. And they've announced a game called Fair Games with a dollar sign. They've announced Marathon. They've announced or hinted at the Horizon game from Gorilla Horizon Live Service, which is different from the Horizon MMO that was made in Korea. That was just reportedly canceled this week. Two different projects. Horizon Online is actually made by Gorilla Games, the makers of Horizon. So that initiative has not worked out quite the way Sony might have hoped.

• 38:00Kirk Hamilton?

  Man, this is such a waste. Really, just looking at this.

• 38:03Jason Schreier?

  It really is.

• 38:04Kirk Hamilton?

  It's such an unbelievable waste. Like, I can't believe the magnitude of the fuck up here, honestly. Like, looking at it and thinking about it, like, the amount of money wasted, the amount of people who threw themselves at projects that were canceled. And just thinking of the opportunity cost there, it's really mind boggling for me. The number of different things that they could have been doing instead of this. And the only other thought I have looking at it is that this is one of those hindsight is 2020 kind of deals. But as we've seen, you can't release a whole bunch of live service games because people only like play one or two of them. And so you reach market saturation to a certain point. And like, again, I am a saxophonist. I don't know about this kind of thing.

• 38:47Jason Schreier?

  I don't think this is hindsight of 2020. We've been saying that, like, we said this back then, too, to be clear.

• 38:51Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay, yeah. I mean, it seemed evident at the time, but like, we now are really seeing that play out. And it's like, my god, the cult. It's the most colossal mistake. It's, it's, it blows my mind.

• 39:02Jason Schreier?

  So you know what's really the real shame here and the real colossal mistake is, uh, uh, everything you said is accurate. But also the other part of that equation is that like, oh, many of these companies that Sony has had on live service games are single player studios. Their studios made up of people.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  What's wild about it.

• 39:19Kirk Hamilton?

  Like games that I like playing.

• 39:20Jason Schreier?

  So, so not only is the opportunity cost of like, oh, they're not going to release something until the PS6, but it's also like, it's like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole or vice versa. It's like taking these people who have all these experience, working on single player games and making them do a multiplayer game, which almost never works out. Didn't work out with Anthem, didn't work out with Suicide Squad, didn't work out with Redfall. Like it almost never works out because when you're good at one thing, uh, it's like,

• 39:45Speaker 02

  It turns out you're not good at another thing. Yeah.

• 39:48Jason Schreier?

  Yeah. You have a bunch of guitar players. You're like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna do a drum, a drum line.

• 39:52Kirk Hamilton?

  A brass quintet.

• 39:54Jason Schreier?

  Yeah. God, it's just such a mess.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  It's, it's very upsetting. And I mean, even just thinking about, it's hard to imagine how much money was poured into this. If you really add up all of the titles together, it is an unfathomable amount. And then to stack on top of that, the human cost of people working on these projects that they weren't suited for because they wanted to be making single player games, or they were just specialized in that, regardless of what they wanted to do, they had specialties. Like it is actually unfathomable, the size and scope of this.

• 40:25Jason Schreier?

  Yep.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  So that's cool.

• 40:27Kirk Hamilton?

  It's definitely, as I, we don't know exactly how much money, I bet it was enough money to remake Bloodborne. Just saying. I bet it was enough money to do that.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Just an idea. Get it on the Switch too, I say.

• 40:38Kirk Hamilton?

  Just throwing it out there. Could have done that maybe for a small percentage of this money.

• 40:42Jason Schreier?

  I suspect there are other reasons that game has never been remade or ported or remastered.

• 40:47Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm just saying, just to put things in some, some sort of helpful context.

• 40:51Jason Schreier?

  But yeah, in Blue Point's case, you know, what's crazy about the Blue Point case is that like they were a studio that remade things and remade things very well. And then got an opportunity to make a new game, but instead of kind of starting a little bit small and being like, hey, we, we've never made our own thing. We've never designed our own game. We don't have a ton of design experience at this studio. We've only made things more beautiful and redone them. Uh, maybe we should start small and like do something in a couple of years. It was like, no, we're going to do a live service thing. And they did, most of them actually.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  No, the next fortnight.

• 41:23Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, most of them actually worked on God of War Ragnarok. So it's the last few years that they've been doing this other, this new thing. But it was clear, I think, to a lot of people on that team that it was never gonna work out. Because when you have a bunch of single player people like assigned to a live service game, it almost never comes together because it's really, really hard to make a live service game at all, let alone if you haven't done it before. Man, there's an argument to be made that Fortnite has single-handedly destroyed the video game industry. And

• 41:57Kirk Hamilton?

  Through no fault exactly of its own.

• 41:58Jason Schreier?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 41:59Kirk Hamilton?

  By being good and making everyone want to emulate it.

• 42:01Jason Schreier?

  By being good. Well, but it's not just that. Two ways. One is by making everyone want to copy it. The other is by taking players who would otherwise like be buying new games every year and having them just play Fortnite. So it's kind of consuming like both the player base and the developer base into the Fortnite sphere.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Bored.

• 42:19Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, it's all just very sad. The, um, the story of PlayStation over the last few years. And if you think about it, we're now almost five years into the, well, not almost four, just after four, just over four years into the lifecycle of the PS5. And at this point in the PS4 era, I feel like we had a lot more.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Night and day. Night and day comparison.

• 42:41Kirk Hamilton?

  This puts it in, in context, just the magnitude of the failure and all the games that we don't have as a result of this, like the, the different and probably better games that we didn't get as a result.

• 42:50Jason Schreier?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:51Jason Schreier?

  But at least we have fair games.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  I can't wait for fair games.

• 42:55Kirk Hamilton?

  I mean, hey, maybe it'll be great.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  It might be great. That's the thing.

• 42:58Kirk Hamilton?

  Hopefully it will be.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  I feel like I keep thinking about that Suicide Squad story you did, Jason, and, and all the other kind of versions of it where the people who are actually making the game know it's not gonna work. Like, there needs to be some type of mechanism. I can't imagine what it would be because clearly getting lower people to communicate with leadership in a way that works for them is like one of the inherent difficulties of a corporate hierarchy, no matter where it is located. But just thinking about those hundreds of people or thousands of people, depending on which project we're talking about, and all of them knowing, this isn't working. This isn't gonna sell. We already know this and then just having to continue to trudge down that doomed road is very overwhelming emotionally to me and I wasn't even there. Like all I've

• 43:42Speaker 02

  done is read an article about it, like being in it.

• 43:45Jason Schreier?

  I think that's a little more complicated.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:48Jason Schreier?

  Cause I, well, I don't think it's necessarily like, I know this isn't going to work because sometimes you, you can't, you don't really have the full picture.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you always have hope, surely.

• 43:56Jason Schreier?

  You have hope or you feel like, oh, there must be something I'm missing. I don't have the birds eye view of the entire project, just like the little sphere that I'm working on. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. These things are so complicated and the, the live service games, especially this idea of having a game that is so good and so fun and so compelling that like people will want to play it infinitely is so difficult to create. That the fact that Sony was like, yeah, we're going to make 12 of them. Great. Great idea. And I've seen, I've seen it theorized on the internet that like Sony took this approach because they were like, hey, we'll put out 12 and maybe two of them will be such big hits that they make up for the rest of them. I don't think that was the strategy here because I think

• 44:39Jason Schreier?

  that there, these games are too expensive to justify the costs of that. Like a lot of these studios are, are hundreds of people who are being paid for years of development. I mean, The Last of Us Online alone must've cost like upwards into the nine figures just because it's like a hundreds, a couple hundred people on LA salaries working for four years.

• 45:01Kirk Hamilton?

  Doesn't the fact that they canceled so many of these games like disprove that theory just on its face? Like they canceled the game.

• 45:06Jason Schreier?

  Yeah. I mean, unless the theory is like, oh, we'll take a bunch of shots and maybe some of them will get canceled and some of them will work out. I don't know. But yeah, I, I don't know. And then you have a flop as big as Concord. I don't know. There's a bigger conversation to be had here that maybe.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they, and one of them needs to be as big as Fortnite to even remotely imagine breaking even. It needs to be the most big game in the world that every single person has heard of.

• 45:30Jason Schreier?

  And we don't have all the numbers because companies are opaque about this stuff, but even Helldivers 2, even the success of that game, I cannot imagine that has successfully paid for all of the flops and cancellations.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  There's no way.

• 45:41Kirk Hamilton?

  And there's also the cost of. Like forcing all of these single-player studios to make, you know, a service game where they don't want to do it. I'm sure you have a lot of attrition there. Yeah, that's true. You're kind of like, everyone's suffering through making a game that you then cancel. It's like horrible for morale. There's so much cost here beyond just the monetary cost. If that was, in fact, this strategy, that was a terrible strategy, but I feel like it couldn't possibly have been. I'm sure they wanted these games to be good. It was just a total, a total failure.

• 46:08Jason Schreier?

  All right, on that lovely note, let's take a break and then we'll be back for one more thing.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  The Flophouse is a podcast where we watch a bad movie and then we talk about it.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  Guys, how does ET poop?

• 46:24Speaker 03

  Uh, well, he's not that regular, but as he's gotten older.

• 46:28Speaker 05

  He has two cloacas, one under each arm.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  No, I was just looking forward to you going through the other ways in which Wild Wild West is historically inaccurate.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  You know how much movies cost nowadays when you add in your popcorn and your Bagel Bites and your cheese grinders?

• 46:42Speaker 04

  You can't go wrong with Henry Cavill mustache. Here at Henry Cavill Mustache is the only supplier.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  The Flophouse. New episodes every Saturday. Find it at MaximumFun.org.

• 46:54Speaker 06

  Ego Sum John Hodgman. At Ego Sum Janet Varney. And we're the hosts of E Pluribus Motto, a podcast dedicated to exploring the mottos of every state in the Union. Every episode, we will spotlight one state and discuss its official symbols, the motto, flowers, birds, beverages, songs, and even official state muffins. Plus, we'll hear from guests whose lives have been inspired by the state's iconography and from residents who call that state home. Bring some snacks, a map, and your travel journal because this podcast is a virtual journey like no other. Au di nostri, e Pluribus Motto. Quailibetalia lunae di Maximum Fun. And for the Latin challenged among you and us, listen to E Pluribus Motto every other Monday on Maximum Fun.

• 47:38Jason Schreier?

  And we are back. Kirk, Matty, it's time for one more thing. Matty, what's your one more thing?

• 47:44Speaker 02

  My one more thing is a television show that Dean and I watched all of over the course of a weekend because it's just feel good. And if you're out there, listeners, and you're like, I just want to watch something that's going to make me feel really good inside, I recommend this show. So it's an HGTV show, which means it's about building things. And we love HGTV shows. But this one's a little different. So it's called Building Outside the Lines, and it's a father-daughter building team. But the daughter is only 14 years old. And the father is a middle-aged man. He does construction and design. And she also does construction and design. And their dynamic is the cutest thing you've

• 48:29Speaker 02

  ever seen in your life. She is like, a design prodigy of sorts, like, has genuinely incredible creative ideas, is inspiring to watch. Her father is so supportive of that, that it just will warm your heart in all these projects that they do. And also, their projects are really cool. So they aren't just like, oh, they're flipping houses, and they like, sell an apartment or something, which is like, a lot of what HGTV does. And I watch plenty of those shows and enjoy them. I'm not trying to say those aren't fun to watch in their own ways. These are like, they'll build a treehouse for somebody, or they'll build like, a she shed for a single mom who's like, I just want somewhere cool to go, and like, you know, make art for myself. Or like, and they often use like, unconventional materials,

• 49:13Speaker 02

  because they're like, repurposing them for their builds in a cool way. So they'll like, take like, a water tank or something, and turn it into a hot tub. And they take like, this old grain silo, and turn it into like, a cookout location. It's so, so cool. And we've like, learned a lot about building strategies from watching this. And also, just had a really good time watching this amazing father-daughter duo that's just incredibly charismatic and sweet to watch. So yeah, really recommend it. Just watch the first episode. And, and if you like the vibe, you will like the entire show. It is called Building Outside the Lines. And probably says a thing that, what kind of mood we were in, that we were like, this is all we want to watch.

• 49:55Kirk Hamilton?

  That sounds awesome. Emily will love that show. We'll totally check it out.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  She will. It's, it's really pure and good.

• 50:03Jason Schreier?

  As, as a father of a daughter, I love a good father-daughter.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:06Jason Schreier?

  Duo.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  It's so, that part of it is so like, just gentle and you're like, oh, like, they're working together and he's such a good dad. It's like, I don't know. It's just, it's just really good.

• 50:17Jason Schreier?

  Very cute. Kirk, what's your one more thing?

• 50:19Kirk Hamilton?

  My one more thing is a movie that I watched on a plane this weekend. Great plane movie.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, this, this movie sounds like a great plane movie. I wanna hear more.

• 50:27Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, it was perfect. Uh, this is, this is Trap, uh, the recent, uh, thriller directed by M. Night Shyamalan. It's a movie that I would say is great for the first 45 minutes and then becomes bad.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 50:41Kirk Hamilton?

  It's still worth watching for those first 45 minutes, though I was very disappointed by, in the end, like, the script and just the kind of, the second, maybe, half-ish of the movie. Uh, but the first half is, is so much fun and the premise is so good that it's worth watching just for that and also for sort of the weird beauty of a, of a perfect premise that kind of was then spoiled by its own execution. I don't know. This is a movie about a father and a daughter. The father is Josh Harknett. His name is Cooper, I believe. He's a firefighter. Real all-American guy, AKA, you know, upstanding handsome white guy with his daughter.

• 51:20Kirk Hamilton?

  Takes her to a concert, uh, that's essentially like, I would say it's, it's been compared a lot to the Taylor Swift era's tour. It struck me a little more like an Olivia Rodrigo concert. It's for a fictional artist named Lady Raven, who incidentally is played by M. Night Shyamalan's daughter, Saleka, or Saleka, I'm not sure how to pronounce her name. But, uh, she plays the, the Olivia Rodrigo-type performer. So this dad is being such a good dad and he's taking his daughter to this big concert in Philadelphia and they go in and it's so exciting and she's so excited and, you know, she sees this, the star getting out of her limo and going in and she waves at her and it's so exciting and he's being so cool and supportive and such a goofy dad.

• 52:02Kirk Hamilton?

  And then you notice there's like a lot of police at the, uh, at this concert for some reason. You notice him noticing them and he keeps kind of looking at the police in a way that seems like he's maybe uneasy about how many police there are here. And then, of course, it is revealed, and as something that anyone who's heard about this movie knows, that he is in fact a serial killer known as The Butcher, who has currently got a victim tied up in his, in a basement somewhere that he's checking in with on his phone. And turns out, the police, like the FBI and this master profiler, have learned that he's going to be at this concert. And the whole concert has been set up as a trap to capture him finally, because he's killed so many people and he's eluded them. So then the movie becomes basically watching this guy, Josh Hartnett, who is very good at being

• 52:47Kirk Hamilton?

  very charming, but also very terrifying, kind of put on his friendly dad face and charm people to try to figure out a way to escape this building that has been set up, or I suppose this arena that's been set up to capture him. It's like the best premise for a movie I've ever heard. It's so good, just as a like pulp nonsense, kind of just fun, dumb thriller. And it is that for the first 45 minutes. And then it just gets too complicated. They introduce more characters. The action moves outside of the arena. He keeps making these increasingly outlandish escapes that rely on the police being just morons. And it's just very frustrating. Like, there's a point where I was like, why, why, why didn't you just do this as like a reverse Die Hard, where the whole movie takes place in the

• 53:29Kirk Hamilton?

  concert? And like, we build up to, you know, finally going backstage and like interacting with the singer. So, I mean, you know, it's like a really flawed movie, but a movie that I really enjoyed. And I do think, actually, that Selena Shamalan is really great. Like, it's, it's very funny that it's a movie about a father like doting on his daughter and doing this very nice thing for her, when the movie itself is like M. Night Shyamalan taking his actual singer daughter, and then like casting her as the biggest act in the world, where now she's Olivia Rodrigo, and she gets to put on this huge show. And she really sells it. And she's also very good in the dramatic scenes that she has to do. So I was, his gambit paid off. And, you know, that, that worked out. And I really thought she

• 54:11Kirk Hamilton?

  was great. But really, Josh Hartnett is kind of the reason to see it. He's a lot of fun. He was great in Oppenheimer, too. And I think he's great in this. And it's still like, it's a good playing movie. It's a good, just want to watch a dumb, fun thing kind of movie. And I do recommend it for all the critiques I could make of it. So that's Trap. It's, I don't know if it's streaming. I watched it on a plane, so I'm not really sure. But I'm sure it's very easy to find.

• 54:34Jason Schreier?

  It's so disappointing because I watched the trailer for that and I too had thought that it was all going to be set in the concert. And it's very disappointing to hear.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would be so good. Oh, wow.

• 54:43Kirk Hamilton?

  It would be so much better. It's like, it's the thing I think, and I don't know, but it's that M. Night Shyamalan has so much creative control. He kind of like, I don't know if he does every, like, he kind of just has his own little, like, team that he, and he writes and directs the movie. And there's no other writing credit. And I would have to think that if some, like, a group of writers were working on this, they would just be like, there would be someone in the writers' room saying, "You can't leave the, you can't leave the concert. This whole thing has to take place there." And like climax onstage somehow, like, the big peak has to take place, you know, onstage with the artist, under the lights and all of that. And they don't do that. And instead, there's all this nonsense with his family and they like leave. And then it just becomes a sort of a really boring thriller. So, yeah, it's too bad.

• 55:24Jason Schreier?

  My one more thing is also about dads and daughters.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Wow, weird theme.

• 55:30Jason Schreier?

  So a few weeks ago, we got an email to the TripleClick account from a game developer, a guy named Parker Crane. And he said, "Hey, I got a game. I'm a big fan and I got a game that you guys might enjoy." And it's called, and it's called "The Puzzlemaker: Seba's Odyssey", which, not the most inviting name, sorry, Parker, but.

• 55:49Kirk Hamilton?

  We'll get into it on the next episode.

• 55:51Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, we will. I thought it looked pretty cool because it looks, it's kind of like a grid, kind of like a Fire Emblem thing. But it's actually, and the way he explained it was that it's kind of like an Into the Breach-style puzzle game. And I was like, "Okay, it sounds really interesting." And so I downloaded it and I started playing it on my Steam Deck. And I have since played through all 200-plus puzzles because it's really, really good.

• 56:12Kirk Hamilton?

  Nice.

• 56:12Jason Schreier?

  So the reason this game is about dads and daughters is because there's also like a little story attached. It's kind of told in these little vignettes between each of the puzzles that involves a dad and his daughter. And it's surprisingly heartwarming and heart-wrenching also. But putting that aside, because the real, the real meat of this game is the puzzles. This game, it's kind of reminiscent of Into the Breach, but it also really reminded me of, of all things, those Queen's Blood challenges in Final Fantasy VII: A Rebirth, where you had to like- Oh sure, I could see that. -put cards in specific positions to cause chain reactions and stuff. So that's the way this game functions. So like, there might be, you might start off with like, a slime, and a knight is next to the slime, and all you have to do is have the knight

• 56:56Jason Schreier?

  attack the slime, and the slime dies, and then you win. And then the next puzzle's like, okay, now there's a hole next to the slime, and there's a rock, but the rock is on the other side of the, of the, of the, of the map. And there is this little mechanism that pushes the rock, and you have to figure out how to get the knight down to the lever to push it and, and get, manipulate the rock into the hole, so then you can kill the slime. And it gets increasingly complex from there, because there are a ton of different types of characters and enemies, and, uh, level manipulating tools that you can use along the way. There are teleporters, and then there are priests who can give each of your characters an extra turn, because normally each of your characters can only go once

• 57:38Jason Schreier?

  as part of the puzzle, uh, flow. Um, and it gets really, really interesting and fun and addictive, because it's got that kind of bite-sized, like, one more level sort of feel, where you do one, and you feel really smart, and you're like, oh, I can do just one more before I go to bed. And before long, you've played 20 of them, because they really, it has so much variety with all the different types of enemies and characters that the game is constantly introducing, that it just never really gets old. Um, a few downsides, it's a little bit sloppy. Um, it feels, or I shouldn't say sloppy, it feels a little amateur, in that there's some, some kind of, um, like, a lot of the hint messages, for example, are kind of off, or like, tell you the wrong thing, or like, there's some

• 58:21Jason Schreier?

  kind of names that are wrong, that feels like they, they needed to be, and it needed a level of polish to it. Um, the game itself doesn't have any bugs or anything like that, um, but there are a few puzzles here and there, where like, um, uh, it feels like you can kind of break them, or beat them in a way that is unintentional, because like, usually, most of the puzzles- Puzzles require you to use all of the characters you have at your disposal. But like occasionally I found puzzles where I could just beat it with only using two characters or something and totally broke it. But for the most part, it's just so good. I really enjoyed it and I think both of you would enjoy it quite a bit as well. It is very much like a cerebral tactical game. Feels into the breach is just a good comparison. Tactical breach wizards, but like at the beginning of tactical breach wizards, when

• 59:06Jason Schreier?

  it feels more puzzlish and less like ex commie, like trying to strategies.

• 59:10Kirk Hamilton?

  Or like the puzzle rooms in that game.

• 59:11Jason Schreier?

  Or the puzzle rooms, exactly. It's like, imagine kind of grid based puzzles where each character can do a specific thing and you have to like maneuver your way through it. And it's very easy to like undo. So you can just press a button and then undo your last move or press another button and reset the whole thing. So you can really experiment with like all the different mechanisms and what does what. And as it gets more complicated, it gets really interesting because you can play around with these abilities to do combinations in ways you wouldn't expect like, hey, you know, this enemy will punch something and move it to one square over. So then if you cast ice to like make a slide, you can have it punch something and that thing will slide all the way over here and then it'll trigger this thing and trigger that thing.

• 59:53Jason Schreier?

  And you can turn it into a whole Rube Goldberg-esque device. And yeah, just a super fun game. I recommend people check it out. Again, it's called The Puzzle Maker: Seba's Odyssey. It's on Steam. I really enjoyed it and played through the whole thing, which is more than I can say for a lot of games that I've tried. Check it out. It's really cool.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 1:00:14Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I'll play it for sure.

• 1:00:15Jason Schreier?

  All right. And that is it for this week's episode. Kirk, Maddy, see you both next time.

• 1:00:22Kirk Hamilton?

  Yep. See you both next week.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 1:00:27Kirk Hamilton?

  Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximumfun.org/join. Find us on Twitter at TripleClickPod, send email to [email protected] and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

• 1:01:25Jason Schreier?

  Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artist-owned shows. Supported. Directly. By you.