Triple Play: Dragon Age: The Veilguard

Kirk and Maddy have played a lot of Dragon Age: The Veilguard! Jason... well, Jason can just listen. The gang talks about BioWare's latest RPG and how much it changes after the first few hours, mostly for the better.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Jason Schreier?

  Long ago was the Iron Age and before that was the Bronze Age and before that was the Dragon Era. Welcome to Trip a Click where we bring the games to you. Today, we are talking about Dragon Age: The Veil Guard, which I really shouldn't say. Let's, let's just try that again. Dragon Age: Veil Guard. Oh my God, that sounds so much better.

• 0:30Jason Schreier?

  I'm Jason Schreier.

• 0:31Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm Kirk Hamilton.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  And I'm Maddy Myers.

• 0:34Jason Schreier?

  Hello. Welcome back to another episode. Can I tell you guys a quick story?

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Always.

• 0:41Jason Schreier?

  So yesterday I was in the city. I went to my office. We had Phil Spencer, Xbox boss, come by the office. I don't usually go in, but we went in for a meeting with him. And I was at a desk at Bloomberg HQ and I like took out my laptop and like put it on the, the kind of the edge of the desk for a second while I was like doing something else and it fell off and it fell like at such a low height that I didn't even pay attention to do it. I was like, okay, whatever, pick it up, put it back on. And then I go to the bathroom or something, come back, open up my laptop and it's like, wait a minute, my, I don't have a rainbow screensaver. Oh, wait a minute, that rainbow is the screen being totally shattered. And it turned out that tiny little bump, like completely disabled my screen. Fortunately, I took it to an Apple store. Unfortunately, it's just the screen and my hard drive is okay.

• 1:26Jason Schreier?

  So I, I can get it repaired. It's just more of an annoying expense than like a devastating like setback. But it made me think, oh man, like these MacBooks like used to be more durable. And then someone told me that now they're like made.

• 1:40Kirk Hamilton?

  Is that true?

• 1:42Jason Schreier?

  I thought they were, they could at least handle like a little bit. This is such a minor fall. It just like happened to land on the wrong angle or something. Anyway, so someone told me that now they're not just made in China, they're also made in like Vietnam and America and Thailand. And like they have different manufacturers and stuff. And America. Well, so America. And then I was thinking, wait a minute. Well, if our new president tariffs China, then all things are going to be made in America. And then everything is just going to be breaking constantly. So, uh, welcome to the first post-election triple click.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Great story.

• 2:16Jason Schreier?

  Everything is broken.

• 2:17Kirk Hamilton?

  Wow, that was a roundabout way to get into an election.

• 2:20Jason Schreier?

  Anyway.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Let's talk tariffs.

• 2:21Jason Schreier?

  Hey, we are a listener supported show. We do not have tariffs. We just have listener support. And if you want to support us, you can become a member of our network, Maximum Fun. Go to maximumfun.org/join and you can sign up. And not only do you support us, you also get bonus episodes every single month, including our ongoing special series called Triple Quest, which is a D and D campaign that the three of us are doing with special guest DM Matthew Mercer. Episodes zero and one are currently on the main feed. So you can listen to those for free if you haven't already. Episode two is currently on the bonus feed. At the end of this month, we're going to move episode two to the main feed and episode three,

• 3:00Jason Schreier?

  the conclusion, the epic finale will be on the bonus feed. So if you want to listen to it early, if you want to listen to both of those early, sign up now, become a member. You also get access to a ton of other, uh, giant backlog of bonus episodes where we just talk about all sorts of cool things. And we're going to do some, some cool new ones soon. We might do a deep dive into metaphor, Refontazio, among other games and shows and other things that we like in the coming year. Maximumfun.org/join. But as for today, Maddie, what are we talking about?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  We are talking about Dragon Age, the Veil Guard.

• 3:38Jason Schreier?

  Oh shit, I've been playing Dragon Quest.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  You know what? Best to be expected. Why don't you just interject and talk about the very Jason Schreier game that is Dragon Quest? And Kirk and I will just talk about Dragon Age and listeners can just skip ahead according to whichever part they want to hear. I think that'll just be a classic triple click episode.

• 3:58Jason Schreier?

  Well, no, it's a classic Bioware episode where you get a choice of Dragon Age versus Dragon Quest.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Then the choice is up to you and one of us will die. And it's gonna be.

• 4:08Kirk Hamilton?

  I feel like one of us should talk about like a dragon infinite. Well, it can kind of just be like a dragon cast.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Kirk, that's all you, because I don't think Jason and I have played that at all. So pick, pick your poison, pick your dragon. If you will, um, I'm gonna talk about Dragon Age The Veil Guard.

• 4:23Kirk Hamilton?

  If we really did this, this could be one of those things where we wind up having surprising insights into each of the three games.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  This seems like a good opportunity for us to do the episode where each of the three of us record separately. Wasn't that one of the ideas that we had? Somehow Kirk was gonna line up the tracks. I don't remember how that went. I'm pretty sure it was each of us talking about a game of Dragon in the title, though. That's part of it now. But I, Matty, have been playing a lot more Dragon Age The Veil Guard. I really like it and I have been playing every single side quest. I might 100% this game. That's how much I'm enjoying it. So that is, that is a big difference from the last time we talked about it when I'd only played a few hours and I wasn't really sure what I thought yet. I think it really gets good once it stops kind of being that linear opening section and it gets the open world part.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  We can travel wherever you want, do side quests. There's a bunch of like really simple but just complicated enough environmental puzzles that are like really hitting the spot of my brain. But also I'm really digging all the companions and their personalities and they're just, I don't know, they're fun. I'm enjoying hanging out with all my cool bisexual friends in Dragon Age. It's a Dragon Age game. That's what, that's what happens in this game. Uh, I, I didn't really keep track of how many hours in I am, but it's gotta be at least 40 by now. Something like that. And I'm just having a good time. Um, so how's everybody else coming along? Kirk, how far are you and what are you thinking about it at this point?

• 5:50Kirk Hamilton?

  Bing. Okay. Don't worry. Past Kirk. I'm gonna let you talk and talk about Dragon Age, but right now it's time for future Kirk. As I edit the podcast, so just to interject here really quick, first, just about spoilers in this episode. Matty and I have both played a pretty big chunk of this game, like we're two thirds of the way through and we do talk a little bit more openly about the story throughout this episode. We don't spoil any major plot beats or anything. It's more like we theorize about some stuff where we've been seeing signs of different narrative developments that might happen. We talk pretty openly about some of the quests regarding Solus and his backstory. And we don't get into too many particulars, but it is a more kind of, kind of free flowing, just open conversation. I think that makes. A lot more interesting, but if you're just starting the game or you're sensitive about hearing anything about the story,

• 6:34Kirk Hamilton?

  would you talk more openly in that way? And I just wanted to give a heads up. Two other things. First of all, Jason has a leaf blower come on in his backyard. A little ways into the episode, I did my best to, you know, kind of filter it out, but you can definitely still hear it. And last, this is our week on the Maximum Fun Network to have TripleClick's new promo play. So if you listen to any other Max Fun shows, you'll hear our promo, but it didn't seem fair that people listening to TripleClick wouldn't hear the promo too, because it's kind of funny. So I included it during the promo break. So I know you're already convinced you already listened to TripleClick, but I just thought you all might enjoy it. Okay, Pascark, is your time to shine. Talk to us about Dragon Age.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Bing!

• 7:15Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, so I'm, I'd say the other big difference between our first episode a couple of weeks ago in that I didn't, I hadn't played the game at all at that point, and now I've played around

• 7:23Speaker 02

  That's right. Yes.

• 7:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Around 40 hours as well. So probably, I bet we're close, sort of in the same place-ish. I played a lot. I am enjoying it quite a bit. I find this game to be a very pleasing and just kind of comforting game to play. And this last week, I've been feeling, you know, pretty stressed out and, and pretty just worried about everything.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Why?

• 7:45Kirk Hamilton?

  Obviously, the election was, was a very tough hang and I'm not happy with the outcome. And as a result, I've just kind of wanted to unplug a little bit and just cruise around on an adventure with some nice, interesting folks. And that's what this game is. It's a great game for just kind of cruising. I've, yeah, I've, I've really enjoyed it. I think it's an interesting game in a lot of different ways that we'll get into, and an interesting counterpart to a lot of the games that we've been talking about this year. One thing that I've been struck by is how polished this game is. Maybe that's the first thing to mention, just because we can get it out of the way and then talk about the meteor, you know, design and storytelling, but like, it's really polished. It feels like a Sony first-party game.

• 8:28Kirk Hamilton?

  I don't, I can't think of a third-party AAA game that I've played at launch where there are, like, I think, straight up, no bugs. I've had one visual thing where the ray tracing got weird and the frame rate dropped. Other than that, it's a completely seamless experience. And, I don't know, like, it's just kind of unusual in this day and age to play a game that looks this good, that's clearly this, like, you know, was this complicated to make, that just runs incredibly well and looks beautiful all the time. There are, like, set-piece levels in this game that are, you know, on the level of a first-party Sony game. Really, for all the different games that it reminds me of, there are little elements of a lot of different games. It really reminds me of a Horizon game. It reminds me of Horizon Forbidden West. It has that same feeling where Horizon

• 9:13Kirk Hamilton?

  Forbidden West was this giant game with a million characters, really complicated animations and acting and action and gorgeous visuals and all this technology behind it that just ran really well. This kind of feels like that. And I'm happy, man. It's, it's just nice to play a game that's this well-realized.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm right there with you. I've really enjoyed how quickly fast travel works, which seems small, but is like, something that's really noticeable when it's bad. And this is just instant. Although I do think that walking from place to place has its own rewards in a game like this. So I've tried to do that more, just to kind of like, embed myself in the world where I think it's a cool area. And also, I too have only had one bug. There was a bug where the battle music just kept playing forever and ever. And I just was like, I guess I need to go back to the lighthouse and get this to stop.

• 9:59Kirk Hamilton?

  It was the inner battle. Can we talk about that, about fast travel a little bit?

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 10:03Kirk Hamilton?

  I mean, I don't want to, so Jason, I don't want to step on you because I, I believe you haven't really played too much more, but I-

• 10:07Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, well, so one, one quick thing on the bugginess or lack thereof. So I spoke to Gary McKay, the studio head of Bioware a couple of weeks ago, and something he said to me, which I took note of and thought was really interesting, is that, I don't know if you guys know this, but a couple of years ago, EA, or even last year, I don't remember exactly when it was, but EA did this restructuring where they split into like EA Entertainment and EA Sports. And they were essentially just complete restructuring where now they both are two different divisions as opposed to it all just being EA games. And something that McKay told me that resulted of that is that like the support teams could be involved with their game a little bit more than they were before. Didn't necessarily have to work on the sports stuff as much, which I thought was really interesting

• 10:52Jason Schreier?

  because back when I was reporting on Andromeda and Anthem and their respective woes, one of the things I heard pretty consistently was this problem of working with, so Bioware pretty infamously at this point, works with the Frostbite engine, which is EA's internal technology. And when you use internal technology and you need some sort of help, you generally have this, this team of engineers that works internally and can support all of the different games. So like you have these Frostbite engineers and then you also have your own engineers who have been working with this technology for a while. And so they know it pretty well. And so what would happen on those games is that EA would say, hey, we have a FIFA game coming out every year. We need some help getting that working on Frostbite. We're going to take these engineers from Bioware. And suddenly they were not working on S effect

• 11:36Jason Schreier?

  Andromeda anymore. They're working on the new FIFA game. And that didn't happen anymore now with this restructuring in place, which I think is, is one of several reasons that it is such a polished experience as opposed to Andromeda, which was infamously glitchy and full of facial woes and animation issues.

• 11:55Kirk Hamilton?

  Am I remembering correctly, Jason, that Dragon Age Inquisition had a little bit of that support team, like jockeying where they brought in a team maybe from Dice at the last minute, or you know, in the last year to like really crank away to get it working because the engine was like a shambles. And then they got it like working a lot better by the time it launched. What, what is my memory there?

• 12:13Jason Schreier?

  You're thinking of every Bioware game in the last, like, that happened. Anthem brought in like a team from, yeah, I mean, all these games, dude, all of Bioware's games. And EA has a lot of that kind of cross.

• 12:23Kirk Hamilton?

  It's remarkable how good the game looks and how well it runs. Man, I gotta shout out the hair also. I was surprised. Having not played the game when the two of you had played it, I just couldn't believe that the first thing, we didn't lead with the fact that the hair in this game is absurd. In the opening level, you're like standing there with Varick and there's this crazy wind blowing and your hair is blowing in the wind while you're talking. And I was looking at it like, this looks like a freaking Disney movie. Like, how does the hair? Do this. And then the whole game is like that. Every hair option, there's a bunch of really great hair options in this game. And then one of them, a curly, I would call it the most hair.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:57Kirk Hamilton?

  And it's funny because I have the most hair on my rook and every screenshot I see of other rooks, like almost everyone is using it just because if you're gonna give me hair that good, I'm gonna choose the one with the most hair so that I can watch it just beautifully fly around in every cutscene. The way it's lit too, oh my god, like the like sunset coming through your hair.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  I did the long ponytail and I don't normally do long hair in real life or in a game, but in this game I was like, it looks so good. I gotta have long hair.

• 13:25Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, it looks great. Really looks technically impressive.

• 13:28Jason Schreier?

  I have not played much more. I'm up to the part where you're saving one of the two cities. So early decision, I guess the first major decision. So my opinion hasn't really changed. The reason I haven't played more is because I'm really not enjoying it.

• 13:40Kirk Hamilton?

  Because you don't like it.

• 13:40Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, yeah. Curious to hear how it's grown on you guys, especially as it's turned into less of like a linear action game and into more of an actual RPG. But the thing that I is really, I mean, the two thing that really just made me bounce off of it. One is the writing just really isn't doing much for me. It's so quippy and just kind of the characters just aren't doing it for me. And then two is the combat, which I know you guys enjoy more than I do. And that might just be a subjective taste thing. But I'm not gonna just like chime in here about how bad it is the whole time. I already said my piece about my thoughts on the game. So I'm curious to hear, actually, I would love to hear more about how it opens up and what makes

• 14:21Jason Schreier?

  it like, I don't know, what has made it really resonate with the two of you as it is. So it sounds like it really, it stops being that linear God of War style game and turns into something different.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  I think it does. Yeah, I definitely think it does.

• 14:35Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the world design and travel, just because you brought that up earlier, Maddie, and I wanted to expand on it a little bit. And it sort of gets at what you're asking about, Jason, as well. This game is kind of interesting in how it's laid out. It's not my favorite thing for an RPG in that you're fast traveling a lot. And narratively, so Rook puts together this team of heroes, apparently called the Veil Guard. Even though that has not been said by any character in my game at least, and only referenced in the user interface in that I unlock a like hero of the Veilguard role for a character once I've maxed out their social rank. Anyways, you're putting together the Veilguard and the whole premise is there are these Iluvian gates or Iluvians, which have been things in Dragon Age since the start.

• 15:18Kirk Hamilton?

  And it's basically a magical elven gate that can transport you to another place. And they were typically pretty limited, usually anyways, in the past. But now there's like this trick that Solus worked out where there's a nexus and you can like travel into the Fade and you're actually, you live in the Fade with your characters in this lighthouse and then you just warp anywhere. So unlike previous games, the first three games, you're not like traveling with a group of people physically, which has actually been a really big part of Dragon Age I and Dragon Age Inquisition. Those two games both had you like notably relocating your base of operations and moving from place to place throughout Ferelden or in Inquisition. I guess it's still Ferelden, but you're like kind of up in the mountains at one point.

• 16:03Kirk Hamilton?

  And there's a feeling of like physical movement and place that those games have that this game does not because you're constantly just warping. First, you're like in the mountains and then you're in Tavinter. You're in that city in Menrathus and then you're in, you're like way over in, what you call it?

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Rivens.

• 16:19Kirk Hamilton?

  Spain slash Italy.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:21Kirk Hamilton?

  And you're, and you know, so there's like a bunch of places or you're in the Necropolis, which is in a different country, Navara, I think it's called. But you don't really have a sense of the places you are. And that makes the game feel a little disconnected from the world. And that's not my favorite thing about it, even while I'm finding like the experience of playing it to be plenty fun. It doesn't have like a really strong sense of place, particularly compared to the earlier games in the series.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would agree with that, which is part of why I've tried to walk around more. Because even within the different places that you zip around to, there's just a million fast travel points everywhere. And that's because as the game opens up, which again, it's really different from that first like six to eight hours where it doesn't feel like an open world game at all. And then suddenly it is one and you can just get quests everywhere. And there's exclamation points on the map and you'll hover over things in the world map and it'll be like new quests in this area that you haven't seen yet. So maybe come over here and check them out. It does all that open world stuff. And once that's present, it's pretty tempting to just zip around using the gazillions of fast travel points, of which I think there are almost a little

• 17:28Speaker 02

  too many for my liking because I like just walking around and trying to get that sense of place that I agree I've really enjoyed in other Dragon Age games. But I also really like the party banter and that's kind of the only way you get it is by walking around the world with your party. And I very intentionally tried to pick different characters every time I'm walking around. And I will say the benefit of the plethora of fast travel points is that at every single one, you can change your party, which I don't really know the magical explanation for that. Teleportation, sure, fine, whatever, but you can just constantly be changing out your party members. And I think that's useful just from a story vantage point because

• 18:09Speaker 02

  like any Dragon Age game, everybody's going through their own personal tragic journey or exciting journey. And they all have, they've started to fight with each other, which thank goodness, that was the main thing that I remember complaining about at the beginning was that I was like, everyone's getting along a little too well. But now finally I have situations where like, his name is, I think Davrin, I think, and Lucanus, they fight with each other. So I like putting them together so that they can kind of snipe at each other.

• 18:35Jason Schreier?

  And I'm not a fan that Lucanus has a demon inside.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Yes, of course. And but that's hilarious to me.

• 18:40Jason Schreier?

  And he's like, where is the mess? I'm living for the mess.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Exactly. I want it to be dramatic and, you know, messy in the way that Dragon Age companions are supposed to be. And also dating each other, baby. That's the other fun part is when your NPCs start to flirt with each other because the writers for this game like chose specific pairings. Like if you decide not to date anyone, then they'll hitch up with each other and there's very specific romantic arcs that play out. It's not just like randomized, which I thought was really neat. Like they actually thought about it and they were like, which of these two characters would end up together? And I have been finding that really cool. And it's kind of like Marvel's Midnight Suns does this because there's actually no option for your player character to romance any of the characters in that game either, but the characters do end up together. And that was one of my favorite parts of that game too.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  So I just have really been digging that. And I will agree with you, Jason. I think the writing at the beginning of the game is tough. It's very exposition-heavy. There's some like, "Oh, that was awkward" kinds of lines that I was like, "Ah, is the whole game gonna be like this?" But I think it's improved, and I'm not sure if that's just because I've spent so much time with each of the characters now that I've grown to like them, or if it's just that now I have more characters that I don't know if you've met yet, Jason, who I like. Like, one of the characters, Emric, he's like this necromancer that has a pet skeleton who's actually played by Matt Mercer, which is hilarious, because the skeleton only speaks and hisses and grunts. So you would never know it's Matthew Mercer, but it is. Anyway, I just think that's funny.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  And I think Emric is a really cool character, and so I just have been enjoying the banter of hanging out with the different pals along the way, which is another thing about Dragon Age that I just like.

• 20:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Does Matt play the viper, too?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know.

• 20:26Kirk Hamilton?

  The viper sounds like him. I was trying to tell if that was him.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  I don't know. You'll have to binge in.

• 20:30Kirk Hamilton?

  I'm so attuned to his voice, but he also has such a vocal type that I feel like maybe it's just someone who sounds like him.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  It could be.

• 20:35Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, there's a lot there that you brought up. I'm trying to think which thing I want to talk about. Maybe a little more about world exploring, because I want to talk about the party members and the writing as well. I like the Crossroads a lot. So the Crossroads are kind of the nexus of Illoviens, where it's kind of in the Fade. It's a transitional space. I actually think about The Magicians, and I think it might even be called The Crossroads and The Magicians. There's this one world that they're always going to, where it's kind of like a bunch of graveyards and gravestones, where you can like, it's like a gateway world where there are gates all around, and you can then go to other worlds. But it's kind of the middle point. Bing! Just for the record, in The Magicians, that world is called The Neitherlands, or maybe Neitherlands. Either way, pretty cool name. Bing!

• 21:19Kirk Hamilton?

  Anyways, this is like a fantasy trope, is the in-between world that you explore. And the crossroads is cool in this game because there are a series of challenges and quests that take place within the crossroads. One of the best quests in the game, Solus's Regrets, where you're kind of digging up his memories and learning more about him. Yeah. And all this wild lore stuff that's revealed, that mostly takes place in the crossroads. There are some really tough optional bosses in the crossroads that are pretty fun. Yeah. And also, it just, it's kind of a nice way to, to connect the world. Like, it, it makes, it makes it all work for me just fine. I'd probably still prefer an RPG like The Witcher 3 or something where there's a big landmass and you feel like you're moving through it,

• 22:01Kirk Hamilton?

  meeting people in new kingdoms. Like, you have a sense of the politics and the space that you're in. There's very little of that in this game, but now that I've played, you know, dozens of hours of it, like, the rhythms work for me. And yeah, I, I definitely try not to just skip the crossroads every time, just because sometimes there's new stuff to see there, or sometimes I'm there and I realize like, oh, actually, there's a little gate I haven't unlocked. Maybe I'll try to do that for a second. And I'm finding that enjoyable. I think, to the, to the writing and the tone. Yeah. I think that this game is just really inconsistent. I, I don't think that it's any one thing and that's what makes it so hard to pin down. And the game just resists any blanket statement of like, it's too quippy, it's too much like a Marvel movie, it's too

• 22:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Whedon-ish, or like, it's not political enough, it doesn't take the world of Dragon Age seriously enough, or whatever else. Like, it's, it's too funny, like, everyone's too friendly to one another. Like, none of those quite hold for me all the way through, now that I've played a bunch. And it's just because it seems to me that this game, well, it seems clear that this game went through a bunch of revisions. Mm-hmm. And you can just tell, there will be scenes where like, the writing team was going for this really evocative, thoughtful, and beautiful style of writing. And then there will be scenes where, you know, people will say things like, "It's quiet, too quiet." "The gates weren't keeping someone out, it's keeping something in." You're right, yeah. You know, like, there are so many lines like that where you're like, this just needed another pass. Yeah.

• 23:28Kirk Hamilton?

  But then, there will be lines, one, one line is a great line, a character says to you, "Solus never lies directly. He weaves truth into a noose that you find yourself wearing." Mm. I was like, that's a good line of fucking dialogue. That's pretty cool. Like, that is what Solus does. And true, what he does. It's a clever bit of turn of phrase, but it's also very true to his character. There's another great bit where you're talking to Solus and he's explaining about- What he's been trying to do, you know, he's this, he's not exactly a god. None of the gods in this game are, right? They're ancient elves who kind of ascended to godhood because they were immortal.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  They're super powerful mages, basically. So powerful that they're kind of like gods.

• 24:04Kirk Hamilton?

  What's, yeah, what's the difference between an immortal, super powerful mage and a god? So all of these gods are kind of gods and kind of not, same with Solus. There's a great line where he's like, do you know the word for the feeling when you're in the cart going home? And you feel, you hear the wheels leave the pavement and go on to the, the dirt road? And you know that you're that much closer to home? And then Rook is like, I know that feeling, but I don't have a word for it. And he's like, the reason you don't have a word for it is that that spirit, the spirit of that feeling is dead. And I tried to save that spirit and so many other spirits. And every feeling that you don't have a name for is a spirit that I couldn't save.

• 24:45Kirk Hamilton?

  And I was like, dude, like, this is cool. Like, there's a lot of stuff like that where I'm like, I really, really like what they're doing. And then there will also be like, kind of really clunky, you know, back and forth.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  That feels like placeholder-ish almost, where it's like, this is the first draft of this interaction. And it's like, fine. Yeah, exactly.

• 25:04Kirk Hamilton?

  That's kind of, so that's kind of the sense that I get. One other writing thing that I want to mention here, and I have played like half of the game, but I'm not spoiled on this. I don't know if the two of you are, but I don't think that you are. I just want to try to call this shot because Varrick.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  We gotta call this shot because I don't know yet either.

• 25:18Kirk Hamilton?

  One of the most memorable characters in the game, and I'm sure listeners will know whether or not I'm right about this.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  They are gonna know and they're gonna laugh at us.

• 25:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Or, or who knows? This is just kind of a fun moment in time. That Varrick gets stabbed by Solus in the beginning. It seems as though he dies.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Very, very, very beginning. Yes.

• 25:32Kirk Hamilton?

  Yes. And then he comes, and then he's, he's okay. And it seems to me, playing through the game, every single this guy is actually dead and no one else can see him flag is being flown for me.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:44Kirk Hamilton?

  And it's made for a kind of confusing experience for me because on the one hand, I'm like, this will be cool. If it turns out that Solus is like projecting Varrick to talk to me, to like, help me through this quest in a certain way or something like that. And then Varrick actually is dead, that'd be neat because I think Varrick should have died in that early scene and bringing him. Back seem like a cop out?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the more the game goes on, the more that seems true because he's so not a part of the narrative and he only is there as like a weird advisor to you and then no one else ever seems to interact with him other than you.

• 26:14Kirk Hamilton?

  There's even like just recently, a character referred to, she was like, I mean, I'm not Veric Tethris and in a way that indicated she's never even met him because it was B'larra. It's like she would never have met him. Like, I didn't meet B'larra until after he died. Anyways, I have this theory and it's been fun, but also because the game seems to have been revised so many times, it's still possible that they like had a version of the game where Veric was dead and then they're like, no, we can't kill him. Let's put him back in. But they're like, we can't change all these group cutscenes to have Veric be in them because we're too far along in development. So it just feels that way. It's kind of the weird thing with video games where you never know if something is deliberate or is just kind of clumsy because it's a weird revision and they had to make it work.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Right. And even if it does turn out that he's dead the whole time, I would still maybe be questioning if that was the final decision too. Like if maybe that was also a rewrite at some point where they were like, well, should we just have him be dead or what? Like, I would love to hear those decisions later on and maybe I'll get to in some future interview. Who's to say? But I will say, Kirk, they don't give Veric a chair at the dinner table and that is the best possible proof in my mind that he is not alive. Every other character is sitting down and he's like bedridden the entire time and he's just standing behind your shoulder. Makes no sense. That guy's not alive. That's some kind of ghost that's standing there.

• 27:28Kirk Hamilton?

  And to be clear again, listeners, we really don't know. We're totally just guessing.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Please don't spoil us.

• 27:33Kirk Hamilton?

  And I purposely avoided looking it up because I want to be surprised and I'm enjoying the ambiguity.

• 27:37Jason Schreier?

  So, okay. So where I'm at, I think that like some listeners are probably in the boat I am where they played maybe the first few hours and they think that this is a very linear style of game where like you are not making any real choices. You are not getting to decide how you approach each outcome. You're just fighting waves of enemies and kind of following the path of the game wants you to follow. Matty, you mentioned that it opens up more to the point where there's side quests and exclamation points and explorable stuff. Are there more systems? Are there more choices? Are there more different ways to approach quests? Like, can you decide whether to fight monsters or sneak around? Like, are there, is there, does it feel like more of an RPG or does it just feel like a God of War game with extra side quests?

• 28:22Kirk Hamilton?

  Horizon, Horizon Forbidden West.

• 28:24Jason Schreier?

  No, but even in, well, yeah, I guess in Horizon you-

• 28:27Kirk Hamilton?

  I think it's a lot more like Horizon. I think that's the, that's the comparison.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  It's a, it's more like a Horizon.

• 28:32Jason Schreier?

  But Horizon you can sneak a little bit more. There are more systems in Horizon in that you can sneak and set traps and stuff. But other than that, you're just fighting. But yeah, but so that's the closest comparison is that really you're just-

• 28:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Sure, but I mean, like the companions are more fleshed out in Dragon Age. Like they're not identical, but they're very, they are very similar.

• 28:47Jason Schreier?

  Right. So in other words, so it doesn't have those RPG elements. It's just kind of more of a straightforward, like you are getting and doing a side quest. And then you are fighting monsters and that's how things go.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  I would say that's largely true, although there have been a couple of moments that have surprised me. I don't think it bothers me personally if a game is largely linear and if you're just engaging with a story that doesn't change a lot. And that is mostly what it is.

• 29:13Jason Schreier?

  I'm not asking this in a positive or negative way. I'm just trying to understand the, the, the structure. I'm just trying to understand how much of the structure actually changes from where I am to where you guys are.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the main structural change is that it becomes an open world game. And so you can do quests in different orders and you can just mainline the story quests and barely get to know the companions at all, which I really wouldn't recommend doing, or you can really get to know them.

• 29:39Kirk Hamilton?

  Or you can, you can explore the world also. Like there are just like puzzles and challenges and like hidden chests and stuff. Like there's a lot of stuff in the world that it's not even a quest. Like you can just go and solve like a weird like riddle with a series of poems in the necropolis where you have to put them in the right order to open up a secret chest with a cool item. There's stuff like that too. Like you can explore.

• 29:58Jason Schreier?

  That's nice. Okay, cool.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there are like a couple of moments that are kind of like big story moments that you haven't hit, Jason. Like you described one early on where it's like save this town or another, and that's like probably the first significant choice. There's another choice later on in the game, like two thirds of the way through, that's pretty significant. That's kind of like some of the choices in the Mass Effect games where like there's sort of a big different outcome for one of two characters, depending on who you choose. And there's also a quest that's kind of like mid-range that I did. Over the weekend where you like meet another elven goddess and you can either fight her or talk your way through it. And I managed to talk my way through it and I was really proud of myself.

• 30:38Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay, I'm glad you mentioned this.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  For getting through that.

• 30:40Jason Schreier?

  Okay, that's what I was wondering about. That's cool.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Because I thought that was really cool that I could get out of it.

• 30:45Kirk Hamilton?

  It was so well handled. Yes. That's part of the, part of Solus's memory.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:51Kirk Hamilton?

  And that quest is really cool in general. This quest, man, this is like, it's one of the best things the game does. You pick up, you go and collect these statues, you put them on the wall and then you see one of Solus's memories. Each one is like a lore megaton.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:04Kirk Hamilton?

  If you are a Dragon Age fan.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  If you like Dragon Age.

• 31:06Kirk Hamilton?

  It's very much like written for the guys like me, the bloggers who wrote Dragon Age lore explainers. Like, I'm like, wait, the Golden City was what?

• 31:15Speaker 02

  But even if you're me, it's still fun juicy drama where you're like, oh, Solus had like a past elven GF that we didn't know about? Okay. And it's interesting.

• 31:25Kirk Hamilton?

  And she is a character that we, I mean, it's a character that we've known for a really long time. Like she's, she's been mentioned since the first game.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  But didn't know everything about her.

• 31:34Kirk Hamilton?

  Yes. You learn a lot of things and we're not giving any, I won't give any of them away. But what's really fun about them is that you see these little like vignettes play out. It's like a mural on the wall. And then it cuts to this wonderful tableau of your party. And they're all sitting around a table and everyone is like, you know, I don't know, Lucanus is drinking a cup of coffee and Davos is like whittling, like everyone's doing something. Harding is kind of curled up on the couch in this comfortable way.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  She's always lounging.

• 32:01Kirk Hamilton?

  And then they all just talk about what you just learned. And you get to just watch all the characters kind of weigh in on whatever it is that just happened. And sort of, it, it serves to both underline and explain, like reinforce, I guess, what it is that you just learned and why it matters. And also to give you insight into all the different characters and like how it might meet. If there's something that has an impact on like the validity of the chant of Androstae, which is a really big deal in the Dragon Age world that's basically like Christianity.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:29Kirk Hamilton?

  Like the characters who follow the chant are going to be reacting in a particular way. And then you can talk to them and choose kind of how Rook reacts to it. And that stuff is Really cool. And then, right, you learn a whole lot over the course of this. And then it leads up to this kind of climactic sequence where you you can fail to talk your way through this whole like, long conversation that you're basically just going off of, you know, some advice you got where it's like, well, don't don't be this way, be this way, like, try this, don't try that. And you have to choose answers. And if you choose badly, it's like, no, we're fighting like, fuck you.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:59Kirk Hamilton?

  And you really can go either way. And it was really, really rewarding. And I I loved that. It's I don't think that kind of thing happens a bunch of times in the game.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:07Kirk Hamilton?

  But that's sort of okay, you know? I was thinking back to the that first branching decision that you make.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:13Kirk Hamilton?

  Where you choose one city or the other, and you either choose Nev's city or Lucanus's city, these two different cities that you've kind of met early on. And one of you can only like divert forces to one of them. So the other one gets kind of messed up. As a result, that party member gets what's called hardened, and like, some of their abilities change. And your relationship with them changes too. And I think that's the only time that that happens in the game. And it could be like, when that first happened, I was like, oh, cool. Maybe this will be a system that really gets fleshed out, like a bunch of different times, characters can get hardened, or other things can happen to them. Now that I've played a bunch, I can see that's the only time it happens. But it's a big deal. Like, it really changed my relationship to Lucanus. Every cut scene that I've had with him, every time I've talked to him, he's like, kind of traumatized and bitter.

• 33:58Kirk Hamilton?

  Like, he's not as our relationship was sort of messed up. I finally kind of patched things up by helping him more. And the fact that his build is also different, and he can't do support abilities, it like, really does change the character. And so there may not be like, a whole ton of branches, you know, there might not be a whole bunch of bosses that you can like, talk your way through or fight. But the ones that are there are actually like, they weigh a lot in the in the overall experience. And so it makes for like, an actually pretty varied and satisfying overall experience, for me at least.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, same. And I actually wanted to circle back to those soulless memories again, just to reinforce how cool I think those party scenes are. Because that's where I've really got to know some of the characters that I feel like I didn't know as well. So like, I decided early on, I was gonna romance Nev just Cause I think she's cool and

• 34:49Kirk Hamilton?

  Cause Nev is the best.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Cause she's really cool. Okay. I didn't even know that. Great. We're both romanticizing that.

• 34:54Kirk Hamilton?

  She really grew on me.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Um, anyway, so I was like, okay, I don't really know anything about her though. So like, we're just gonna see how this plays out. And I realized really quickly in those scenes that if I said anything even remotely nice about Solus, it would be like Nev disapproves. And I was like, oh, she freaking hates this guy. So like, the only way I'm gonna get on her good side is if I just like, find the least charitable response I could be making about Solus, but I'm also like, I hate him too. So we can bond over this. So I'm just gonna like lean into this and like, give him no quarter whatsoever. And that has been fun and fingers crossed. I, I think it's working out with her. I don't know. TBD. I'll, I'll update you guys later about that, but like, that was really fun. And it was also

• 35:37Speaker 02

  really interesting to see which characters approve and disapprove of different interactions, which is like a classic RPG staple, but I think is done really well here as a way to let you get to know the characters and what their different personalities are. And thus far, they've, they've all really grown on me. I think Belara is like the toughest hang early on because she has the most like, they fly now, they fly now types of dialogue choices in that first like, yeah, adorkable manic pixie style characterization in that first six hours. But then after I did the quest where you find out about her brother who's lost in the fade and like, you don't know what's going on with him. I was really moved by it and I was like, oh, she's actually got a lot going on beneath the surface that I didn't know about.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  But you're right. I mean, the writing is inconsistent. I can't, I can't deny that. And it also reminds me of the Marvel's Midnight Suns thing where it feels almost like every character was written by a different person. I don't know if that's accurate. I have no data on that at all, but it feels like that, you know?

• 36:35Kirk Hamilton?

  There was this cut scene I just saw last night with Belara, like doing a bunch of face acting. That was just outrageous. Like it was the most incredibly detailed and oh yes, it was like beautiful. Like her face, she was like thinking and then she like, had a sad thought and then she like swallowed it. And then she like looked down and I was like, whoa, like somebody spent a week just like making this like 20 seconds of the game. Look incredible. There'll be those, those technical moments, you know, where other times they look kind of stiff. Um, anyways, yes, I am. I agree that the characters feel sort of like they were written by different people. You know, some of them work for me, some of them don't. That's actually kind of always been true of BioWare games.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:17Kirk Hamilton?

  Emmerich, I really enjoy. Yeah, Nev has really grown on me. I wasn't sure about her at first, but she's a really fun character. And her side quests are great, like hanging out with her in Dock Town and solving mysteries and stuff. I'm like, okay, I like this. Actually, I would play a Nev game. And something that I also like that they're doing a lot more of now that we've gotten Cooking is you'll go have conversations with people. There are a variety of different sort of types of interactions that you can have. The game labels them kind of confusingly. Like, if you look at your home base, if there's an exclamation point, I think that means they're gonna tell you about a quest you can go do.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you're right.

• 37:53Kirk Hamilton?

  If there's an exclamation point that's in a voice bubble, that means you're just gonna go have a little interaction with them.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:58Kirk Hamilton?

  And then there's something else, too. It's like a time.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  I think there's one that's like just a voice bubble, or yeah, no, it's a little clock.

• 38:05Kirk Hamilton?

  It's a little clock, yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:06Kirk Hamilton?

  And that's something else. Like, that's, I don't remember, somehow different. Anyways. Increasingly now, I'll go for those, I think it's the voice bubble exclamation points, where it's just like a little one-off conversation that sort of flushes them out. And there will be another character there as well. And they've started to kind of treat that as the new format for these scenes, where I'll walk in and Emmerich and Tosh are both there. And they're kind of arguing because Tosh is like, you're a necromancer and that's gross. And so they're kind of talking through, you know, whatever, what it is that Emmerich does. And then Rook walks in and she can kind of weigh in. And kind of, it just like helps give you a sense that everyone kind of knows everyone else. And that the more they do that, the better. It's like one more layer of the party banter out in the field.

• 38:50Kirk Hamilton?

  It's one more, you know, version of everybody talking about Solis's memories together. And I really appreciate that. Like, I think they've, they've taken a conscious, you know, approach to trying to get everyone together more often. So it doesn't do that thing we were talking about some last week, that like Metaphor, for example, can kind of feel like every character exists like on a spoke orbiting your like central character. And their whole development just takes place one-on-one with you. There's still a lot of that, too, of course, like, because you're a protagonist, it's a video game. But they're, they're trying to work around it, and I appreciate the way they're doing it.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, same. I also wanted to ask you, Kirk, what you thought about Elgronon and Gilinane as villains, because this is another part of the game that I'm like, well, I really like these Solus questlines, but these other two big, big deal elven gods that I'm supposed to be fighting the whole time, I don't know, they seem fine.

• 39:42Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I don't know. Wait, so is Elgronon the guy and Gilinane the lady?

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 39:46Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 39:47Kirk Hamilton?

  So Gilinane is really the villain for the whole part that I've been playing. Elgronon only barely just turned up.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 39:52Kirk Hamilton?

  And he's clearly just, like, he's, what's his name from Baldur's Gate? He's the god of tyranny or whatever. And she is the, like, freaky Frankenstein, like, making blight monsters.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:01Kirk Hamilton?

  And she looks, like, totally crazy. She's got these, like, weird arms and she's all like this horrible monster.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  And like tentacles and stuff.

• 40:07Kirk Hamilton?

  She wears a mask and, like, one of her eyes has teeth, like, under the mask. Like, she's really messed up.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Oh, her design is amazing. Love the visuals.

• 40:14Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, character designs are cool. I mean, the thing is, it's still Solus's game. I really think this game could have been called Dread Wolf. I mean, I'm certainly not the first person to say that, but that definitely seems like they changed the name at the last minute, because this is Solus's story. He's the most dynamic antagonist and sort of the most important character in this whole thing. And I've really appreciated him. And then they're kind of just like, they're just bad guys. They have the feeling of, you know, whatever, a Marvel, like, in the second Thor movie, whatever the bad guy was, you know, like, someone who's just kind of cool is, like, maybe played by a famous actor and then they're not really, the function is just to let the heroes go through something. Like, that maybe feels, I don't know about the most Marvel-y, but that is quite a Marvel-y

• 40:58Kirk Hamilton?

  thing about this game, is that those villains, they're sort of secondary. Their function is to, like, allow me to understand Solus's story and to give me and my buddies, like, a reason to work together. So that's kind of how I feel about them. How about you?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just feel like they're super forgettable. And I might change my mind as I complete the game and kind of figure out what their deal is. But even in the Solus flashbacks, I mean, Solus is stealing the show and it maybe I'm just biased, because I'm like, well, this is the person I already know from Inquisition. And so, of course, I am invested. And I also...

• 41:30Kirk Hamilton?

  He's also like, he's like, he's struggling with his morality.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 41:33Kirk Hamilton?

  He's like a really complicated character, like, you know, where they're just kind of like evil assholes, so.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're like, well, yeah, we're powerful mages and so naturally we're gonna take over the world? Question mark, like you do. And it's, it's tough. So I mean, as far as I'm kind of getting you invested in the game, I don't know that those two are what I would have gone with. And so I feel like that might be like another thing that people are having issues with, especially in the early going, where they're like, okay, these are these two big villains that show up. I don't even understand who they are. I'm not invested in that. But if you're a listener that was feeling that way, especially about the opening, I think it's worth noting that the game still really is about Solis in a good way, in the sense that he's the one whose motives

• 42:19Speaker 02

  you get to know or think you're getting to know in a way that I think really works. And at the point in the game that I'm in, I'm still like, I don't, I feel like he's still messing with me on some level, not just with the Varick of it all, but just in the grand scheme.

• 42:33Kirk Hamilton?

  He's like the god of lies and deceit or whatever.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Of course. He's, he's basically Loki or whatever. So I'm sure he's still.

• 42:40Kirk Hamilton?

  He doesn't lie directly. He weaves the truth into a noose that you find yourself wearing.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah. You know, I'm constantly saying that about him. But I am really enjoying that part of it. And I do feel like they should have just kept the title The Dread Wolf. I know part of why they changed it was because they were like, we want the title to focus on the heroes and not the villain. And I kind of get the moral justification of that, but whatever, you can just name it.

• 43:05Kirk Hamilton?

  It would have been Dread Wolf. No the, the the Veilguard. Get rid of the the. Just Dread Wolf. Cool name.

• 43:11Jason Schreier?

  The the, that's the problem. It's a good, it's a parallel to like, I guess Inquisition where he plays the Inquisition or Dragon Age 2 where you play as a two.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he plays the two in that.

• 43:20Kirk Hamilton?

  Inquisition was also a bad name.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Inquisition is bad. Dragon Age Veilguard would be better, but yeah, to justify just one last thing that I wanted to respond to, even though it's like the least exciting way to end this. Jason, you said early on, and I totally agreed with this, in the early game, it really is like picking up weapons and being like, which one has the green arrow? Like, that was something I. Totally agree with in the early going and then was pleasantly surprised that eventually it isn't that way at all. And there's like a whole complex upgrade tree for weapons and enchantments for your weapons that you can add on to them that I've been finding really fun. And there's like elemental attacks and all that stuff that helps make the combat more interesting, but they do take a while to introduce that. So here I am justifying

• 44:05Speaker 02

  this very belatedly, like the game gets interesting later. Who, how many times have you heard that before about a video?

• 44:11Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I think, I mean, we can talk a little about the crunchy stuff, the combat and the systems.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:15Kirk Hamilton?

  Because I think it's a very good action RPG. I mean, it's, it's a little like playing Diablo four or something like.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:22Kirk Hamilton?

  Go in, especially now, because I'm unbelievably powerful.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Same.

• 44:24Kirk Hamilton?

  I've actually kicked up the difficulty. This game has fantastic difficulty options. You can lower enemy health, raise enemy health.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 44:31Kirk Hamilton?

  I have had to raise enemy health because I'm playing a rogue, like a duelist rogue. So I'm doing like insane necrotic damage and like stacking adrenaline and recently got a ring that just like broke the game. So I had to like push the enemy health up just because I was like, these fights are ending too fast. This isn't fun, but it's nice that it lets you do that. But yeah, I'm finding the combat to be very enjoyable. I think, you know, it's, it's very similar to Mass Effect two and Mass Effect three in that you're just rolling around doing combat. In this case, you know, God of War style, like flipping and jumping and striking as opposed to cover shooting in Mass Effect. And then you're pulling up the, using a shoulder button to pull up a wheel and then like setting off different combo attacks and sort of triggering different abilities

• 45:14Kirk Hamilton?

  that sort of synergize with your team. And like, there's all kinds of different abilities, like you, you like put an effect on an enemy and then a different, you know, attack from one of your teammates will detonate that and that blows up and like hurts everyone around them. And then you can kind of spec toward that and build out to like have the explosions do a lot more damage or give you a faster cooldown. And like, pretty quickly you do start to kind of come up with a build. And yeah, the loot system is, I think, really clever. I've never, well, I can't think of a game like this. I'm sure that this has been explored before, but I really like the approach of having there be a finite number of pieces of gear, you know, pieces of armor, swords, whatever. And that as you pick, as you find more of them in the world, it just levels up the one that you have.

• 45:57Kirk Hamilton?

  You can never sell weapons or armor in this game. You just sell like random crap that you pick up. They're sort of like little forgettable collectibles. But as a result, you don't like wind up with a ton of like level one armor that you then just go sell. Like in Diablo or in one of, in really any RPG that I can think of. Where you're like, alright, time to just go figure out which of my old swords I can sell. This is something I really struggled with in Metaphor, actually, where I was like, can I sell this or do I need this? Like, if I switch someone else to this archetype, like, am I gonna ever need this whatever, like, longsword again? In this game, that's not, you don't even have to worry about it because you can't sell them. And there's not that much gear, so it's actually exciting. You'll, you'll just go to the store and realize like, oh, I can just buy another version of that sword.

• 46:40Kirk Hamilton?

  And that'll just like raise the rarity of my sword one tier and like unlock one of the currently locked abilities. And the more you unlock the abilities, the more specialized the gear gets. I have, let's see, one sword that gives me permanent necrotic weapons, which is incredible for my build. I have this ring, I think it's called the Last Stand, where each time I use one of my attack abilities, it gives me plus 20% damage, minus 20% resistances. And if I dodge or block, it resets. So I just keep doing attacks and never dodging. And soon I'm at like a 10 stack doing plus 200% weapon damage. But I can never dodge or block because I'm like, I can't break my streak. So I'm kind of like just taking hits like, like an idiot, but also just healing.

• 47:23Kirk Hamilton?

  And I'm doing so much damage that I'm like melting enemies. And it's like a very particular kind of build. There was a bow that I found where you only have one arrow, but it does like tons and tons of crit damage if you do a headshot, but takes forever to get the second arrow up. I could see that actually like layering well with a 10 stack of Last Stand. Like, you basically start doing this, the fun mental math of an action RPG, where you start trying to figure out your build and how to Do, you know, insane damage and then you you're too good at it and you have to push up the enemy difficulties. So that you're not just like cleaving your way through every fight.

• 47:55Jason Schreier?

  This is like, it feels like you guys are playing a different game than I am. It's such a travesty that like it takes.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  We kind of are.

• 48:02Kirk Hamilton?

  We are, right? We're playing, we're playing Dragon Age of Veilguard after 20 hours instead of after six.

• 48:06Jason Schreier?

  Yeah. Why does it take somebody like, why make a game where it takes 10, 20 hours to get to the good stuff?

• 48:12Kirk Hamilton?

  I don't really buy this critique. I don't know. Like, I guess.

• 48:15Jason Schreier?

  Why don't you buy that critique? I'm playing a game that does not have any interesting combat builds and options like that. Cause I haven't found any weapons.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  So many games start out that way.

• 48:24Kirk Hamilton?

  Cause you have to develop systems. You have to introduce things to people. Like, I don't know. Like, I mean, I, your taste is your own.

• 48:30Jason Schreier?

  You can introduce choices earlier on without.

• 48:34Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, I get that you want that. I just don't feel that way.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  You can, but there's so many games we play on this show that aren't good for the first six to 10 hours. Like, is that tough? Yeah, but.

• 48:44Kirk Hamilton?

  Or that just take a while to develop. Like, I don't know. It's, it's just hard when you're not talking about a whole thing. You're talking about the first 10% of it. It's like, yeah, I guess like the first eight bars of a song might not be interesting, but like.

• 48:58Jason Schreier?

  If, yeah, if it took 10 hours to get through the first eight bars of a song, you probably wouldn't listen to that song.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  That's video games, though.

• 49:04Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, it's, it is video games for you.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  We have to put up with this all the time. They're like 100 hours long, so.

• 49:09Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, and I'm just saying, that's a flaw with this, with this media.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  I think it is. I mean, I think it's hard.

• 49:16Kirk Hamilton?

  I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's right. It's been true of pretty much every RPG we play this year. So I don't know if I would single out Veilguard as being like particularly egregious. In fact, I think that the way that it just like pulls you through the first six hours, especially if you know going in, which hopefully anybody who listens to this show does at this point. Like, it's gonna open up. It's gonna get to something bigger than like, kind of whatever. Like, it's just a linear, pretty fun, six-hour game that you can just cruise through and then it opens up and it gradually introduces new things. I don't, just don't really see that as a knock against the game.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. And it's also like, I don't know, you don't have to play everything. It's fine. Like, we're having a great time.

• 49:51Kirk Hamilton?

  That's true too.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  It's okay. It's, I don't know. I mean, it took me a long time to like Baldur's Gate. Three, two, and I ended up loving that. So if people stick with it, I think they might find it's different than they thought. But if they don't, that's also fine. And you know, on that note, I'm probably going to keep playing every single side quest in this game, and having a great time, and then making some sort of debilitating choice about whether or not Veridus goes the whole time. Can't wait to find that out.

• 50:16Kirk Hamilton?

  We're gonna find out.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  And with that, let's take a break, and then we'll be back for one more thing.

• 50:27Kirk Hamilton?

  Say you like video games, and who doesn't?

• 50:30Speaker 02

  I mean, some people probably don't.

• 50:32Kirk Hamilton?

  Okay, but a lot of people do. So say you're one of those people, and you feel like you don't really have anyone to talk to about the games that you like.

• 50:39Jason Schreier?

  Well, you should get some better friends.

• 50:41Kirk Hamilton?

  Yes, you should get some better friends, but you could also listen to Triple Click, a weekly podcast about video games hosted by me, Kirk Hamilton.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Me, Maddy Myers.

• 50:51Jason Schreier?

  And me, Jason Schreier. We talk about new releases, old classics, industry news, and whatever, really.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  We'll show you new things to love about games, and maybe even help you find new friends to talk to about them.

• 51:03Kirk Hamilton?

  Triple Click. It's kind of like we're your friends. Find us at MaximumFun.org, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Throughout history, sirens have captured men's attention, enticed men with their feminine wiles, and fulfilled men's primal needs. The sirens allure persist-

• 51:21Speaker 04

  They have not. Unless the primal need is, I need to be smashed on the rocks.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, smash me.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  Smash me, mommy.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Smash me, mama.

• 51:29Speaker 04

  Smash me, mommy.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  The sirens allure-

• 51:36Speaker 04

  Why do we do this to ourselves?

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Strand me, baby. Strand me, mommy.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  Strand me, baby. So yeah, this is my brother, my brother, and me from Maximum Fun on Mondays. It's just like that. Just like that, but it's just like that, but more of it. There's more of that.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  And we are back. Jason, you've got a video game here that I would like to hear about because I have not tried this one yet.

• 52:03Kirk Hamilton?

  I have played it, but I want to hear what Jason thinks.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Take it away.

• 52:06Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, so my one more thing is Rise of the Golden Idol, the sequel to The Case of the Golden Idol, a triple-click pick, a game that the three of us all loved dearly when it came out a couple of years ago. So yeah, so that game was a detective game where you are this kind of omniscient narrator-type figure who is seeing these scenes, these tableau scenes of horrifying events, usually grisly murders, and trying to figure out what happened through this kind of Mad Libs-style scroll where you go around and you click through people and objects and you get words that pop up on your screen whenever you find them, like names of people or like verbs, and then you can take those words and insert

• 52:48Jason Schreier?

  them into the Mad Libs and try to piece together exactly what happened. The sequel doesn't change much. It's pretty much the same thing, set in the 1970s, so 200 years after the first game. Still revolves around an object called the Golden Idol that has the power to make supernatural things happen, to like steal people's youth or memories or create fire and so on and so forth, and still full of delightful mysteries. There are a few structural differences between this one and the last game, and one of the biggest ones and the most delightful one is that, so in the first game, you played

• 53:31Jason Schreier?

  through something like 15 chapters and each of them was like a different scenario and they were all kind of standalone mysteries. And then by the end of it, you had a good idea of everything that happened and you did this kind of like grand epilogue that pieced together the exact story.

• 53:43Kirk Hamilton?

  Final exam.

• 53:44Jason Schreier?

  Final exam. And then you, and that was the end of the game. In this game, every three or four of these scenarios, you have kind of like another kind of overarching

• 53:55Kirk Hamilton?

  midterm.

• 53:56Jason Schreier?

  A midterm, a pop quiz, so to speak, that kind of ties those three or four scenarios together and helps you keep up on exactly what's happening, which is essential for this game because The story is a lot more complicated and convoluted than the first game was. And so every, uh, so like there are like five of these segments and each of them has the overarching story that is like, okay, here is what happened across all of these, or like here is some information that you will need to know that you are going to extrapolate from these. And for those, you have to kind of go back into each of the episodes and just kind of like uncover a little bit to refresh yourself on what happened in order to solve that mystery, which is really, really cool and works really, really well.

• 54:37Jason Schreier?

  This game, of course, has the same problem that the first game did and that any game of this nature will, which is that occasionally you might be like, what is the designer thinking here? Like, uh, my logic here is going in a totally different direction. Or like, I'm filling in a word here that should make sense, but isn't exactly what the designers wanted me to enter. So it's not working. But that's pretty rare. And I just generally, I finished this game a few weeks ago and just had a lovely old romping time with it. It's just such a wonderful, delightful, satisfying experience that just makes you feel like a genius the whole time. And I can, will never get sick of doing these. I spoke to the designers last week, the Klavins brothers, uh, who are these, um, Latvian brothers who, uh, designed both of these games.

• 55:22Jason Schreier?

  They seem pretty fatigued and sick of making them. So I have a feeling they're gonna do something else at some point. It's been a pretty grueling schedule for them. They did Case of the Golden Idol, then two DLC packs for that. And now this, and now they have four DLC packs that they've announced for this game. So they've got a lot of stuff in the pipe. But one thing they told me that I thought was really interesting was that, um, so typically in the video game industry, like DLC, I feel like you're lucky if you got 30% of players to buy the DLC. Like that's considered an extraordinary number of players. If you get 30% of people who bought the original game to buy the DLC a few months later or something like that. Usually it's closer to 10, 15, 20% of people.

• 56:03Jason Schreier?

  With these games, uh, something like, I believe the number is 50 something percent of people bought the first DLC. And then 44% of people bought the second DLC to the original Case of the Golden Idol. The attach rate is really huge. And that says to me something really interesting, which is that I think that like people who love these kinds of games really love these kinds of games. And if you're one of those people, you've probably already marathon through this one. But if, if not, if you are a mystery game lover, a cerebral game lover, and you haven't played these games before, go do it. Go start with the beginning with Case of the Golden Idol and play all the way through. If you don't know that this game is out, now you know. Go play Rise in the Golden Idol. Yeah, I mean, I, I loved it. It's just kind of like, it's one of those where it's not going to have the same sort of viral word of mouth success

• 56:48Jason Schreier?

  because it is more of the same and is not drastically different from the first game. And so the kind of, the, the novelty of it is no longer there. But if you like the first game, you're going to love this one, too.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly what I want to hear. I'm so excited.

• 57:02Kirk Hamilton?

  It's so good. I've played the first of those chunks and did the midterm last night and it's, it's wonderful. It's more Golden Idol, but in the best way. Just a bunch of weird, ugly freaks moving their mouths in uncomfortable ways.

• 57:14Jason Schreier?

  It all ties together so nicely. At, at first you're like, what, what the hell was with this first opening chapter? Like, what does this have to do with anything?

• 57:20Speaker 02

  But that's classic.

• 57:21Kirk Hamilton?

  Already tell.

• 57:22Jason Schreier?

  So nicely. And yeah, I, I like it better than the first game, I would say. I think it's, it's a stronger story and a stronger game in general.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  That's high praise.

• 57:31Jason Schreier?

  I think you guys will enjoy it.

• 57:33Kirk Hamilton?

  Seventies, seventies are a fun setting, like in a semi American-ish.

• 57:36Jason Schreier?

  Yes.

• 57:37Kirk Hamilton?

  Nation is, it's a great move.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  First one had such a cool story, though. It's nice to know this one has an even better story and I'm just really excited to play it. So, yeah, I just fell in the dragon age hole. You get it. Come out and play.

• 57:49Jason Schreier?

  Well, so something that Kirk will really appreciate and Maddie, you might appreciate too, is that in the first game, there's this character Peter, who is this bumbling idiot who somehow like makes it to the like.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Who is the best?

• 58:01Kirk Hamilton?

  Peter does well for himself.

• 58:04Jason Schreier?

  This game also has some interesting, some very curious bumbling idiot characters.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Amazing. Has some recurring idiots. Yeah. I mean, that's another like amazing theme of these games is that it's like, you get to laugh at the greed and idiocy of like certain characters and just be like, how are you failing upwards? Oh, it's because of this weird golden idol that you have. It's the best. Okay, great. I'll go next really quick. I have been listening to another new podcast, which is called Evil Men. And it's a comedy podcast and it kind of seems like it's going to be like a true crime podcast. If you look at how it operates, it's, it's three comedians, Chris Locke, James Hartnett and Michael Bellotto, and they pick a different evil man every episode. Sometimes it's a real evil man.

• 58:47Jason Schreier?

  Is it just Bill Maher every episode?

• 58:48Speaker 02

  It could be Bill Maher. They could certainly do a Bill Maher episode, but they also do like fictional evil men, like they had Chip Sidarsky on to talk about Dr. Doom, which is a really great episode, really funny. Chip Sidarsky is really funny, but it's a comedy show. And so like I took a little bit to get used to this for me because like I started with their first episode, which is Jeffrey Dahmer, who I actually know a lot about. And I was kind of frustrated at first because I was like, these guys don't know anything about Jeffrey Dahmer. And the first episode's like, kind of rough. And so I would recommend skipping that one because eventually they kind of find their footing and they realize like, oh, we do need to be factually accurate and like know a lot about the evil men, but we also need to come prepared with jokes about each of the evil men so that they can emphasize the jokes aspect.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  And it really works. Like, once they hit their stride, which I think is around the time of like the Chip Sidarsky, Dr. Doom episode, they like really get in the thick of it and understand how their own show works and that laughing at these evil men of the past and kind of making light of like bizarre situations or just making things up. I don't know. They have a really good chemistry as a trio that just grows over time and has me just laughing really, really hard and has been kind of a balm for me as I've been thinking about evil men a lot since the election for kind of no reason. It's not relevant to anything in our lives at all, but I, sometimes I just need to laugh darkly at things. And if that's you, and if you have kind of a dark sense of humor and think this sounds fun, check out the Dr.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Doom app and then just go right along from there and you'll probably find it really funny. It's called Evil Men and it has a great theme song. Kirk, what's yours?

• 1:00:23Kirk Hamilton?

  Uh, mine is also a podcast that I have been listening to and really enjoying, actually, the past several weeks that I wanted to recommend. And yeah, it's a sort of similar thing where if you're feeling pretty dispirited and not sure what to do with yourself after the election, like, you want to disengage because you just can't deal because you're exhausted, but you want to stay engaged because it feels like you should. And, you know, this, this constant thing that we have all learned how to deal with one way or another over the last many years. This podcast, which is called CityCast, is a really, a really great thing. It's a very cool project. So I have been listening to CityCast Portland, which is a discreet podcast with its, with its own feed. It is hosted by a woman named Claudia Meza, and it comes out every day now, I think.

• 1:01:05Kirk Hamilton?

  And it's a podcast about local Portland happenings. It's been a lot about politics recently because we just had a big, complex election here, but it's about all kinds of things, like, just whatever's going on in town. Sometimes it's light stuff, sometimes it's more political, sometimes it's, it's just all kinds of different things related to my town, to Portland. And CityCast, which is a network, and there are a variety of CityCast. So there's CityCast, I'm looking at their website, CityCast Denver, Houston, Las Vegas, Madison, Nashville, Philly, Pittsburgh, Portland, and Salt Lake City. And so, oh, Chicago, DC, Boise, Austin, also there.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:01:44Kirk Hamilton?

  So there's no, like, New York.

• 1:01:45Jason Schreier?

  Yeah, wait, no, New York, I mean, what the hell are we doing here?

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Who cares?

• 1:01:50Kirk Hamilton?

  Because we don't need, dude, like-

• 1:01:51Jason Schreier?

  There's plenty of news on that.

• 1:01:53Kirk Hamilton?

  All I hear about is Eric Adams and New York politics, you know? I'm sure you know this. It's like, it's like New York is the only city in the world or something, where actually, no, you probably live, if you live in a metropolitan area, your city has its own whole political world, a lot of interesting projects going on, and a lot of things that actually concern you very directly.

• 1:02:11Jason Schreier?

  Hey, man, it just happens that our local newspaper is also the leading national, like, media organization-

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  It just so happens.

• 1:02:18Jason Schreier?

  In the country.

• 1:02:19Kirk Hamilton?

  So if you're tired of the New York Times, for example, if looking at the New York Times makes you want to throw up all over the place, maybe, just as a, like, maybe you feel that way, I can recommend CityCast. What's nice about it is that it is a podcast. I think they have a newsletter, too. I just listened to the podcast. Portland, as I mentioned last week, had a really interesting election cycle this year. We introduced a whole new mode of city government. We did ranked choice voting for the first time on our mayor and our city councillors. And I just listened to a lot of CityCast and I heard interviews with the people who were running for mayor. I heard all of this great, really smart people, like local journalists would come on the show and talk to Claudia about, I don't know, the different candidates in my district.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  That's awesome.

• 1:03:01Kirk Hamilton?

  And who's in the front, who's raised the most money. It was so interesting and also just really tangible and really close to home. These are people who need my vote. It mattered who I voted for in a way that my national vote, living in blue Oregon, doesn't really matter. And so I find, anyways, as a podcast listener and as someone who listens to, especially when politics get cooking, I listen to probably too many political podcasts just because, I don't know, I just wind up doing that out of a kind of nervous habit.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  I hear you.

• 1:03:28Kirk Hamilton?

  They're almost all talking about national politics. They're all talking about the presidential race. It's all stuff that's pretty remote. I don't live in Pennsylvania, you know? I just, I apparently don't matter. So listening to CityCast has been really, really great. I really can't recommend it enough. If you live in any of those cities, check out your CityCast and give them a listen. Give them some support. It's a really cool thing that they're doing. And yeah, I just wanted to put that on anyone's radar who lives in one of those cities and is interested in maybe learning a little more about what's going on in your backyard.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  That's awesome.

• 1:04:02Jason Schreier?

  Here's the local reporting.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love that. That's really, really great. All right.

• 1:04:06Kirk Hamilton?

  Yeah, they're great.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Well, with that, we conclude yet another week of Triple Click and we'll be back next week with another one of these.

• 1:04:14Jason Schreier?

  Oh, shoot, I forgot to talk about Dragon Quest.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  Well, we'll get to it.

• 1:04:18Kirk Hamilton?

  It's cool, just record that later and then I'll just edit it.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, spice it in for some color.

• 1:04:23Jason Schreier?

  Well, I guess I'll have to talk about it next week because I really am playing a new Dragon Quest, so we'll get into that.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  We'll get to it.

• 1:04:29Kirk Hamilton?

  All right, well, I'll see both of you then.

• 1:04:32Jason Schreier?

  See ya.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 1:04:36Kirk Hamilton?

  Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximumfun.org/join. Find us on Twitter at TripleClickPod, send email to [email protected], and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

• 1:05:33Speaker 05

  Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported directly by you.