Jaguar Attack - A Rare and Deadly Encounter

Jaguars are an incredibly powerful cat who usually keep to themselves as far as humans are concerned. But not always. ~~ Graza Olive Oil: Add Graza Olive Oil to your summertime patio party arsenal. Visit https://graza.co/TOOTH and use promo code TOOTH today for 10% off of the TRIO! Mint Mobile: Get this new customer offer and your 3-month Unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at http://mintmobile.com/tooth LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase at http://drinklmnt.com/tooth Quince: Go to http://Quince.com/tooth for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Smalls: Get 60% off your first Smalls order PLUS free shipping when you head to http://Smalls.com/tooth ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Jeff Larson?

  Hello listeners, welcome back to a episode of Tooth and Claw Podcast. We have our wildlife bear biologist Wes Larson with us.

• 0:22Wes Larson?

  Wildlife bears, those are my specialties.

• 0:25Jeff Larson?

  You might know him from a show that he did called The Great Big Story, if you're

• 0:30Wes Larson?

  Mission Wild.

• 0:30Jeff Larson?

  Mission Wild, but I don't even know him from that.

• 0:34Wes Larson?

  No.

• 0:34Jeff Larson?

  And then I'm a younger brother.

• 0:35Wes Larson?

  You know me from Mom's Womb, which we weren't in together, but we both were in it.

• 0:40Jeff Larson?

  You think I met, you think you had remnants in there still?

• 0:43Wes Larson?

  I wrote my name on the wall.

• 0:44Jeff Larson?

  Wes was here. Yes, I'm Wes's younger brother Jeff, and I benched 200 pounds one time, three years ago. A bit of a koala brain, you know, pretty cute, fun, but not like super smart.

• 1:00Wes Larson?

  This is a what have you done for me lately podcast, Jeff.

• 1:04Jeff Larson?

  How many times have you benched 200 pounds?

• 1:06Wes Larson?

  Actually, I'm not sure if I ever have. I've, I've never really benched for like a max weight. Oh, wow. I don't think I have either.

• 1:12Jeff Larson?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:13Wes Larson?

  You're our record holder, Jeff.

• 1:17Jeff Larson?

  Sounds like Mike, our sound guy, is a little jealous of how much I benched three years ago, but.

• 1:23Wes Larson?

  200 is a lot.

• 1:25Jeff Larson?

  But the listeners, listeners like to know, you know, 200 is a lot.

• 1:29Wes Larson?

  I think they know by now, Jeff. I'm pretty sure they've heard you say this before.

• 1:35Jeff Larson?

  How much does a car weigh?

• 1:37Wes Larson?

  Like 400 pounds, maybe. On a good day. Next time we're all three together, let's go to the gym and let's have a little bench off.

• 1:46Jeff Larson?

  That's what I think it's funny is I actually think you can both bench 200 pounds like right now.

• 1:52Wes Larson?

  I don't.

• 1:53Jeff Larson?

  Short arms dude, short arms, you can bench more and Mike's just, Mike's just like.

• 1:58Wes Larson?

  Short arms, Mike?

• 1:59Jeff Larson?

  No, you.

• 2:00Wes Larson?

  T-Rex arms, dude. I think my arms are pretty proportional to my body, though.

• 2:04Jeff Larson?

  But I'm saying like shorter people are better at bench than taller people. And like you've always dominated me at arm wrestling. So I just feel like you might be pretty good at bench.

• 2:16Wes Larson?

  I think, I think you're thinking of like 15 years ago, probably still though.

• 2:20Jeff Larson?

  I appreciate.

• 2:21Wes Larson?

  I don't think I'd beat you anymore. I got a bad wrist now, Jeff. My wrist hurts. Yeah.

• 2:27Jeff Larson?

  From what?

• 2:29Wes Larson?

  Just from a cyst that I had removed a long time ago.

• 2:32Mike Smith?

  Overuse.

• 2:33Wes Larson?

  Did a bad job. Yeah, overuse.

• 2:35Mike Smith?

  Bad form.

• 2:38Jeff Larson?

  Write in all those papers.

• 2:41Wes Larson?

  Our hottest day of the year here. So you guys are gonna see me slowly cook alive.

• 2:45Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah. Wes does this thing. He he like insists on recording in his shed where there's like robins that live right on top of it. And then he has to turn his AC off right when we start recording.

• 2:58Wes Larson?

  Cause you guys make me do it.

• 3:00Jeff Larson?

  Slowly builds throughout the episode.

• 3:03Wes Larson?

  If I recorded inside, the problem is the pets. The pets are too loud, you know? To bring up our story for the day, it takes place in somewhere really hot and muggy that we're about to go to.

• 3:14Jeff Larson?

  Hell.

• 3:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah, in two days, the three of us are leaving for Brazil and we're gonna meet some toothy listeners in the Pontenal, which is one of my favorite places on earth.

• 3:24Jeff Larson?

  Forgot about that.

• 3:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah, yeah, you better pack.

• 3:29Wes Larson?

  It is a great place. It is full of wildlife and it is without a doubt the best place in the world to see the subject of today's story, the noble jaguar.

• 3:41Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah. My last big cat that I haven't seen.

• 3:46Wes Larson?

  Same with Mike.

• 3:47Jeff Larson?

  I'm really excited to go to Brazil, but I'm also kinda like really worried.

• 3:52Wes Larson?

  I'm pretty sure we're gonna see one.

• 3:54Jeff Larson?

  Well, that's my worry.

• 3:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's possible.

• 3:56Jeff Larson?

  I don't know.

• 3:57Wes Larson?

  Never know wildlife.

• 3:58Jeff Larson?

  Well, I'm saying if I see one, I don't know if I'll have a purpose in life.

• 4:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah, yeah, we might all not come back from this trip.

• 4:07Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:08Wes Larson?

  It's great and you guys are gonna love it and I'm really excited to show it to you. And just so everyone knows, when we started this podcast, me and Jeff both pronounced the word jaguar like jagwire. And I have been working really hard on not saying a jagwire anymore, on saying jagwar. So if I slip up, just know that I know and that Jeff knows.

• 4:34Jeff Larson?

  I think jaguar kinda sounds cool.

• 4:36Wes Larson?

  Jaguar sounds cooler to me too, but whatever. You guys wanna learn how to say it in Portuguese?

• 4:42Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:43Wes Larson?

  Onsa. Onsa pintada is how you say jaguar in Portuguese.

• 4:48Jeff Larson?

  That's not even close to jaguar.

• 4:49Wes Larson?

  You can just say onsa, which pretty much means like Panther. But that's what they use for Jaguars, but onsa pintada is painted Panther. And that is like the true name for Jaguar. So you will hear that word a lot as we're on the river. They're going to be looking for onsa. So.

• 5:04Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 5:05Mike Smith?

  On the river? What? Can they walk on water like Jesus?

• 5:08Wes Larson?

  No, when we're on the river.

• 5:11Mike Smith?

  Cool.

• 5:11Jeff Larson?

  Not like Paul.

• 5:12Wes Larson?

  They do love Jesus down there.

• 5:14Mike Smith?

  Paul, he got like two steps. Don't shortchange my guy, Paul.

• 5:19Jeff Larson?

  That's why I don't even try. He walked on water two steps and got chastised for it for like not having a lot of faith.

• 5:26Wes Larson?

  That's a good point. He did a pretty good job, all things considered.

• 5:29Jeff Larson?

  It's just like, I'm not gonna try.

• 5:31Wes Larson?

  Braxton, or Mike, insert our Bible noise there. Okay. All right. So I'm actually kind of shocked by today's story because I was just kind of thinking, what should the topic be? And I thought, let's do a Jaguar story.

• 5:46Jeff Larson?

  Nice.

• 5:46Wes Larson?

  And in my mind, I thought, okay, there's going to be one that I heard about in a zoo. And then probably just a few little ones that we didn't report on last time we did Jaguars. And as I searched for stories, I found one that happened this year in the Pontenhol. And it ended pretty tragically. So it's like, it's kind of a crazy story. It's pretty unprecedented for this part of Brazil. I did actually, I found a study that said they think there's like somewhere around 20 Jaguar attacks every year in Brazil. But I think most of those are people that like surprise one and maybe it charges them or something.

• 6:22Jeff Larson?

  That's a lot more than we've previously said, though.

• 6:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah, this is though of the big cats and especially of the roaring cats, which are tigers, lions, leopards and Jaguars. This is the one that definitely attacks the least amount of people and I'm going to get into that. I think it's actually the most interesting part of this episode is, is my theory based on a Jaguar scientist book on why that might be. I shouldn't say it's my theory, but it's like a theory that I kind of agree with that I've heard before. And now it's mine. Yep, I claim it.

• 6:54Mike Smith?

  Like Michael Scott quoting Wayne Gretzky or whatever.

• 6:59Wes Larson?

  Anyway, we'll get into that.

• 7:00Jeff Larson?

  It is like, I, I've always kind of, especially since I've listened to you so much about animals doing this podcast, you know?

• 7:09Wes Larson?

  My whole, your whole life, pretty much.

• 7:11Jeff Larson?

  Uh, I do feel like as far as like how dangerous an animal is, or just like how much you would expect an animal to attack people, jaguars are like the most lacking in attacks of any animal, like proportionally.

• 7:26Wes Larson?

  For sure. And it's not like they only like, like snow leopards, for example, live in the high Himalayas where you have very few people, like the human footprint there is really, really, really small. So we really don't have any attacks from them. But with jaguars, there's, there's quite a bit of overlap in places that have a lot of people. Like Brazil is a heavily pop populated country. And yeah, Mike, you have something you want to say.

• 7:50Mike Smith?

  I think swordfish has to be on that list somewhere too, right, Jeff? Like got sword in their name and they just never attack anyone.

• 7:57Jeff Larson?

  It's not like fish like.

• 7:59Wes Larson?

  They do attack people though.

• 8:00Jeff Larson?

  Swordfish are attacking, like Marlins aren't attacking people all the time either.

• 8:04Wes Larson?

  They do sometimes though. Yeah. There's people that have been skewered by Marlins.

• 8:08Jeff Larson?

  But like, a leopard just seems like a real close version of a jaguar. Like they seem so similar and they're like a little bit smaller even and they people up all the time.

• 8:20Wes Larson?

  If we were to Google right now leopard attack, there would be one, I promise you from the last two weeks. And I was surprised that I could find a jaguar attack from this year.

• 8:30Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Wes Larson?

  That's how different those cats are. So let's get into the story. It's a really interesting one. It's one that occurred in.

• 8:38Jeff Larson?

  What about swordfish attack?

• 8:40Wes Larson?

  Uh, that might be a little bit harder. Yeah.

• 8:43Jeff Larson?

  All right, maybe Mike's right.

• 8:44Wes Larson?

  Yeah. So we are going to the northern part of the Pantanal, um, which is in the state Mato Grosso. This one occurs in Mato Grosso do Sul, which is the southern part of the Pantanal, which is an area that I visit this exact area with my naturalist journeys group, um, because there's some different bird life there. The trip's a little longer. We go to this exact area. So I was really shocked, especially to hear where it took place. Cause this isn't even in like the prime heart of the Jaguar territory within the Pantanal, but all of the Pantanal is technically Jaguar territory. Okay. In early April 2025, 60-year-old Giorgio Avalo and his brother-in-law bent

• 9:24Wes Larson?

  down and examined the large paw prints outside George's room. While all kinds of animals from dogs, capybara, everything else was commonly walking around this small fishing lodge on the shore of the Miranda River in the Pantanal of Mato Grosso do Sul, these prints were far too large to be anything but the most sought-after and the most respected animal in the area, the jaguar. And there were two of them. So this wasn't George's first time seeing tracks, just from the screened-in kitchen area where he would enjoy his morning coffee and his meals. A few nights before, a remote camera had picked up a jaguar crouching behind a tree just a few feet away from this building, and George had spotted the big cats dozens of times during his decades in this area,

• 10:06Wes Larson?

  and they were really good for business. So, these tracks that he was looking at with his brother-in-law were likely from two jaguars that had been kind of maybe fighting for dominance or for something in the area. There's this video of them walking around, just like looking at all of the paw prints, and it's literally on their front step. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. Like, they're standing within an arm's reach of their house, and there are jaguar tracks everywhere.

• 10:32Jeff Larson?

  Cool.

• 10:33Wes Larson?

  Like I said, this is pretty good for their business. He is the caretaker for a fishing lodge, and many of the visitors to the lodge and this area in general have one main target when it comes to the animals that they hope to see. It's kind of, kind of like our trip to Brazil. Our main target is a jaguar. And even a brief glimpse of a jaguar can absolutely solidify a trip to the area as the trip of a lifetime. This is a cat that's really hard to see anywhere else in the world, so this is like where you go to see them. It's not easy to get to, it's not cheap to get to. So like, when you see one, it makes all that effort and time and money worthwhile.

• 11:11Wes Larson?

  So they're kind of big business and other fishermen and ranchers or people that really aren't interested in tourism would be really dismayed to see jaguar tracks so close to their property. George was thrilled. He was just really excited. He and his brother-in-law made this video and they're chatting happily about what looked like a fight for dominance in their front yard. Just like for them, it means that when tourism season comes, they're probably gonna have jaguars around, which is good.

• 11:39Jeff Larson?

  You ever have to fight for dominance in your front yard, Wes?

• 11:43Wes Larson?

  Uh, not really. I'm trying to think if like I've ever gotten a fight with Jessie in the front yard, but yeah, I was thinking so. Yeah. It wouldn't have been a physical fight. We've never been in a physical fight, never will, but um, I would have lost for sure. Any fight with her, I generally lose. Okay. George felt a connection and just so everyone knows, I watched a lot of videos on this. There's a lot of YouTube videos from people that don't speak Portuguese. Everyone pronounced this guy's name Jorge, because that's how you would say this in Spanish. It's George in Portuguese.

• 12:20Jeff Larson?

  George?

• 12:21Wes Larson?

  George. It's kind of like George, but it's like George. Yeah.

• 12:24Mike Smith?

  Or Portuguese, I guess.

• 12:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Portuguese is kind of like French and Spanish mixed together.

• 12:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Wes Larson?

  It's very nasally. So he felt a connection to these cats and he actually kind of felt like that connection went both ways. Like they kind of had an understanding and he knew that their presence could make his lodge, which he didn't own this lodge, but he worked there, the most popular lodge in the area. And he was confident that having them around really didn't pose much of a danger to him, to the other residents, to any guests. So he started taking some measures to keep jaguars around.

• 12:58Mike Smith?

  It's a dangerous line of thinking. You know how in the latest Batman, Riddler, he thinks he and Batman are on the same page that whole time?

• 13:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Mike Smith?

  And he goes, no, no, no. And starts crying in the cell. Because they didn't have a connection. He was wrong.

• 13:12Wes Larson?

  No. Batman was too stupid for him.

• 13:15Mike Smith?

  Right. I don't know who's the Riddler in this situation.

• 13:18Jeff Larson?

  I mean, Riddler was pretty stupid too.

• 13:20Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Jeff Larson?

  He like couldn't tell who it was.

• 13:23Wes Larson?

  That's true. It's a good point. Yeah.

• 13:27Jeff Larson?

  This episode of Tooth and Claw is brought to you by Graza. It's that time of year, whether you're grilling on the deck or chilling at the beach, Graza is your one and only summertime, never blended, single origin olive oil. So why Graza for summer? Well, first of all, they have a trio of olive oil. There's Frizzle for your grill with a smoke point of 490 degrees Fahrenheit. Frizzle is perfect for grilling, frying or crisping. I love it for fish. Sizzle, an everyday cooking oil for roasting, marinating and sauteing. Or Drizzle for salad, a bold punchy flavor goes great on bread, ice cream, your classic potato salad. They come in a super fun squeeze and spray bottles. No more messy tins or drippy spouts.

• 14:11Jeff Larson?

  Just aim, squeeze and go. I actually surprisingly like to cook occasionally and I love using Graza. It's really satisfying just to spray some oil on your frying pan before you put something on there. It just kind of feels fun and it tastes great. But also as I'm getting older, I'm getting more health conscious and Graza's extra virgin oils are loaded with those heart and brain friendly polyphenols. So you'll get 10% off your first order. I recommend grabbing the trio because you can use them in so many different situations. So head to graza.com and use code TOOTH to get 10% off the trio, which includes Sizzle, Frizzle and Drizzle. And get to cooking your next chef quality meal and tag Tooth and Claw in it too.

• 14:56Jeff Larson?

  We want to see what you're cooking with Graza.

• 14:59Wes Larson?

  But anyway, these tracks, so George is doing something to kind of keep these jaguars around. These tracks prove that it's probably paying off. And what he was doing, and I'm not just saying necessarily him, but this lodge was doing. And it's something that's somewhat common in Brazil for wildlife is he was feeding the jaguars. I can't say exactly what it looked like, but there was from reports that I read and professionals that I saw interviewed. I could tell you.

• 15:29Wes Larson?

  There's evidence that this was occurring. Eyewitness accounts that it was happening. It could have been as simple as him leaving fish corpses or scraps in front of the lodge near the river, or as blatant as someone throwing meat to the cats as they approached. I really don't know what it was like, but there is evidence that there was some intentional feeding happening in this area. One of the jaguars that was eating the food being left out by the lodge was a large male who had had a rough season during the rains. To explain the Pontenal a little bit, in the rainy season, there's a ton of water that enters all those river systems, the high plateaus around the Pontenal, that all flows down into this wetland. Those rivers overflow and essentially the entire wetland fills with water.

• 16:14Wes Larson?

  And that is kind of like, it's really important to the ecosystem. We're going to talk about it more on our trip, but that rise and fall of the water is what creates all these conditions that lead to so much wildlife being in this area. But when the rains do fall and the rivers rise, it's a lot harder for jaguars to find food, because when the rivers are low, all of their prey gather kind of on the edges of this water, and hunting is actually quite easy for them, especially for caiman and capybara. They kind of just can walk the river's edge and find food. That's what we're going to see in Brazil. That's why when you visit jaguar places, you should go during the dry season. But in the rainy season, they have to be a lot more kind of risk, risky in their choices.

• 16:59Wes Larson?

  So sometimes they'll take cattle, they'll take dogs, they'll be a little bit more focused on non-traditional sources of food. So the rainy season can kind of introduce some new variables for jaguars. You guys, that make sense to you guys?

• 17:15Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's like, I don't really have a whole lot to eat at my house right now. I have like some little oyster crackers. When I'm hungry, you kind of have to just go after what you got, you know?

• 17:26Wes Larson?

  Oyster crackers.

• 17:27Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Yeah, you know, they're like the-

• 17:28Jeff Larson?

  It's the dry season for you.

• 17:30Mike Smith?

  It's very dry, all the salt from those crackers.

• 17:35Jeff Larson?

  So what's their their preferred time for eating, you think rainy season or dry season?

• 17:42Wes Larson?

  Dry season is by far their easiest time for hunting.

• 17:45Jeff Larson?

  And like

• 17:46Wes Larson?

  Without a doubt.

• 17:47Jeff Larson?

  They only eat meat, right?

• 17:49Wes Larson?

  Yes, they are true carnivores. Every once in a while, you'll see them eating grass like cats eat, like catnip, just to kind of settle their stomachs. But that's not, it's not for nutrition. It's just to kind of

• 18:01Jeff Larson?

  No wonder they're always fighting for dominance. That's meat eater behavior. Like

• 18:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Jeff Larson?

  Liver King and Joe Rogan.

• 18:10Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Jeff Larson?

  They might fight just to fight, you know?

• 18:13Wes Larson?

  Just to fight. Yeah.

• 18:14Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. And they only eat meat.

• 18:16Wes Larson?

  Who you got in that fight, Jeff?

• 18:19Jeff Larson?

  Rogan, black belt dude.

• 18:21Wes Larson?

  Me too. I honestly, I think Liver King is like one soft punch in the chest away from a heart attack. Exploding. Yeah, just his heart's gonna explode. And his skin, his skin just looks like it's like stretched to like the point where like if you poked him with a needle, he would just like shoot off. Deflate. Yeah. Like Wayne Knight in Space Jam. That's what I'm always thinking about.

• 18:46Wes Larson?

  Anyway, this male jaguar was covered in scars from territorial battles over the years. And he was about 10% skinnier than he probably should have been this time of year. This food that was being left out was really easy and it required no effort. So it kept him in the area, but it wasn't enough to sustain him and he really needed something more substantial. As he went to bed on the night of April 20th, Georgie didn't know that he had already set himself on a trajectory with tragedy. This large male jaguar was already outside. It had finished the handout from the day and now it was waiting for the morning routine. And the, and cats will do this and other animals will sometimes too. It's very likely that this jaguar had watched and just kind of sat and memorized the routine of this lodge.

• 19:32Wes Larson?

  It probably knew what George did in the morning, like how he came out. The coffee, where he would drink his coffee, all of that. I think it's very likely that it had spent enough time there that it kind of was ready for him in the morning.

• 19:45Jeff Larson?

  Blackmail on his affair?

• 19:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah. It was taking photos, laying, laying back in a car very quietly.

• 19:55Wes Larson?

  So during that time, it had probably also gradually lost its fear of being in such close proximity to humans. And now the rewards of life near the lodge seemed to be kind of outweighing the risks of being this close to the lodge. George was betting on decades of experience in the area when it came to having jaguars this close. He had seen the videos of this jaguar right outside of his room, and he had heard stories of the occasional dust up that maybe a hunter, a rancher, or a fisherman might have had with a jaguar. But essentially, all of these stories ended in both the human and the jaguar getting away. I think before this, the last fatal attack in the Pantanal was like 15 years prior, and it was in a far different part of the Pantanal. So who knows if he'd ever even heard of that?

• 20:41Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Wes Larson?

  These stories are fun to tell to nervous tourists for him, but everyone in the area knew that jaguars simply were not interested in humans as prey. They would just kind of pass through the area. Sometimes they would kill cattle or dogs, but that's about it. But the next morning, George would make himself the exception to that rule as he enjoyed his last cup of coffee that he would have in his life.

• 21:03Jeff Larson?

  Wow. Converted to Mormonism.

• 21:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Wes Larson?

  All right. Let's talk a little bit about jaguar biology and evolution. We've done quite a bit on their biology in our last episode. We went into their mythology quite a bit in that episode. So this time, I'm really going to focus on evolution, and I think it's really, really interesting stuff. But quickly, let's go over some biology stuff. Jeff, where are they in our big cats as far as size is concerned?

• 21:39Jeff Larson?

  Third place.

• 21:40Wes Larson?

  Third place. Who's in front?

• 21:42Jeff Larson?

  A distant third from lions and then tigers.

• 21:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah, a distant third from male lions, but actually, a male jaguar is essentially the same size as a lioness, a little bit smaller. But like pretty close to the same size as a lioness. Yes, they're they're big cats. And the ones in the Pontonall, we're going to talk specifically about the Pontonall. They're actually the biggest group of Jaguars in the world. There's no subspecies for Jaguars. They're all the same species, but um, the Pontonall ones do tend to be a bit bigger. Males in the region are often heavier than 200 pounds. The largest on record was 348 pounds. Um, which is a big cat. That's really big. I mean, me and Jeff caught bears that were 350 pounds and that's a big bear. So it's a huge cat.

• 22:27Jeff Larson?

  What percent bigger would you say they are than leopards?

• 22:32Wes Larson?

  I think leopards are like top out generally like 150, 200. So I would guess that these guys are like 25% bigger would be my guess.

• 22:41Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 22:41Wes Larson?

  I don't know, Jeff, I'm not great with numbers.

• 22:43Mike Smith?

  Just anecdotally speaking, I I've not ever seen a Jaguar, so maybe this means nothing, but they always seem a lot more like dense. And they're solid than a leopard.

• 22:53Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, they don't seem like much longer, like taller. They're just like.

• 22:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Jeff Larson?

  Built.

• 23:00Wes Larson?

  Shorter, shorter legs.

• 23:01Jeff Larson?

  They could bench a lot.

• 23:03Wes Larson?

  Stockier bodies, bigger heads. Mike, what? Do you know, like, the the best way to kind of tell a photo apart of these two cats? I know Jeff knows. What's the, like, what do you look for in a Jaguar versus a leopard?

• 23:18Mike Smith?

  The the rosette spots, there's a dot in the middle of the donut shape. And I think that's Jaguars, correct?

• 23:26Wes Larson?

  Correct. And not all of their rosettes will have that, but a couple of them will. So if you see any spots in the middle of a rosette, it's very likely that you're looking at a Jaguar. The best way to tell them apart in the wild is just where you are. So if you are in the Americas, you were and you're seeing a big spotted cat, it's a Jaguar. If you're anywhere else, it's a leopard. All right.

• 23:48Jeff Larson?

  If you're on a Jaguar cruise, it's probably not a leopard.

• 23:53Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:55Mike Smith?

  That'd be nice if stalactites and stalagmites were like that, because I can't ever remember which or which. If only one appeared in like the northern hemisphere and the other was only in the southern. It'd be so easy.

• 24:07Jeff Larson?

  Kind of like that. One only appears up top and one only shows down.

• 24:13Mike Smith?

  I guess I just need to.

• 24:15Wes Larson?

  But which?

• 24:16Mike Smith?

  Which one's which? No one knows.

• 24:18Wes Larson?

  When we see a Jaguar, Mike, are you just gonna yell the whole time?

• 24:22Mike Smith?

  Yeah, probably. Here, here's, I'll make a deal with you. If the guide is screaming at the other guide over the leopard or the jaguar, I'm gonna feel comfortable doing the same.

• 24:35Wes Larson?

  You won't be louder than him. I like that rule. Don't be louder than the guide.

• 24:39Jeff Larson?

  That was, Wes is referencing, we saw a leopard in a tree and we were pretty close. And Mike was like, talking at like a normal volume, but it felt really loud in this situation. And we both shushed him.

• 24:52Mike Smith?

  Half the story, but sure.

• 24:53Jeff Larson?

  A minute later, the guides were just yelling at each other from car to car. And I don't know, I don't want to speak for Wes, but I was like, oh man, I feel bad for shushing Mike. Because these guys are like, being so much louder.

• 25:08Mike Smith?

  Yelling and honking and stuff. There was a car right by us, like revving its engine. So I had to speak a little louder to be heard. And then it like turned its engine off real quick, right? When I started really getting loud.

• 25:19Wes Larson?

  It was bad timing. I shouldn't have shushed you. I hate being shushed.

• 25:23Mike Smith?

  My self-esteem has never recovered.

• 25:25Wes Larson?

  Jaguars have bigger heads, stockier bodies, their spot patterns often have more of kind of these big blended black spots that almost look like stripes. So if you look at enough photos of both animals, you can really get a good feel for the ways that they look different. There's somewhere between 4,000 and 7,000 jaguars just in the Pantanal. They range over an area that is about 70,000 square miles, which is roughly the size of the state of Washington. This means that the Pantanal has the highest density of jaguars anywhere in the world. There's a reason for that. The Pantanal is the world's biggest wetland and it's home to a ton of wildlife and a lot of potential prey for jaguars. The most abundant prey species being the yakare caiman.

• 26:07Wes Larson?

  It's a medium sized crocodilian that jaguars are really good at catching and killing.

• 26:12Jeff Larson?

  Probably my favorite animal to like sea hunt. Like watching a jaguar hunt a caiman is like my favorite type of like, watch this hunting, animal hunting video, you know?

• 26:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And if we get lucky, we'll see him hunting, which is pretty cool. You guys want to guess how many yakare caiman there are in the Pantanal?

• 26:34Jeff Larson?

  So there's 7,000 jaguars?

• 26:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Jeff Larson?

  Uh, I'm gonna guess. Eighteen thousand.

• 26:42Mike Smith?

  Oh, I was gonna go way high. Now I feel maybe dumb. I was gonna say like eight hundred thousand?

• 26:48Wes Larson?

  There are roughly ten million

• 26:49Mike Smith?

  What?

• 26:50Wes Larson?

  came in, in the pond and all. You guys aren't gonna believe how many there are. Like, you stop at a pool of water and you'll count like thirty in a tiny little pond. They are everywhere.

• 27:00Jeff Larson?

  Can you swim with them?

• 27:01Wes Larson?

  Uh, you could. They, they're fish eaters. The only time they ever bite people is when people are harassing them. You're not, you're not allowed to swim with them in the pond and all, but you could and nothing would happen. They are the largest population of any crocodilian anywhere in the world by a good margin. And when we get there, you guys will see these chompy little are everywhere. I mean, they are everywhere.

• 27:23Mike Smith?

  What makes them so, is it just because it's untouched by man, the land out there?

• 27:28Wes Larson?

  It's just great habitat and they're not really hunted or anything. Like, I, alligators, I want to say we have something like three or four million alligators in the US. And this is just a huge wetland and they're just really good at what they do.

• 27:45Jeff Larson?

  That's insane. That's more than people.

• 27:47Wes Larson?

  Uh, it's not more than people, but it's a lot of, it's a lot of caiman.

• 27:53Mike Smith?

  You know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. That's why a few years ago, I made the switch to Mint Mobile. So say goodbye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan, bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Did you overprice wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for fifteen dollars a month? And this is one of those things where maybe it sounds a little too good to be true, but it's exactly as it's advertised.

• 28:34Mike Smith?

  I made the switch a few years ago. I was working up in Park City, surrounded by a bunch of rich investment bankers. I was not one of those myself, just kind of like a low minimum wage, almost post collegiate kid, uh, trying to make ends meet. And Mint Mobile was one of those things where it had a pretty significant effect on the old budget. And I thought it was normal. I was on one of those other more expensive plans and I just thought that was a regular thing that we were all kind of slaves and beholden to our phones. No, that's not the case. You can get Mint, save a ton of money and have just as good a service. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at mintmobile.com/tooth. That's mintmobile.com/tooth. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month.

• 29:19Mike Smith?

  Limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigs on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

• 29:30Jeff Larson?

  Many of the world's high performing leaders, business leaders, or podcasters at the very top, drink Element as a part of their daily hydration routine. Some bear biologists I know do it as well. Pretty much everyone I know with every type of job, Element helps them out. It helps them stay hydrated. Everyone who I have tried out ends up loving it. This summer, let me tell you, I've been really excited about their newest flavor, the Lemonade Salt. Something about lemonade in the summer, I don't deal super well with the heat and man, with that extra hydration, that lemonade flavor, it just really, really hits the spot

• 30:10Jeff Larson?

  for me. So squeeze the most out of this summer with Element's new limited time Lemonade Salt. Salty tart, refreshing, it brings you the best of summer wherever you are. I like to just put it in with cold water. I think that that's the best way to do it for me. Maybe some ice. Get a free eight count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com/tooth. Find your favorite Element flavor or share with a friend. Also, try Element totally risk free. If you don't like it, give it away to a salty friend and they'll give your money back, no questions asked. They have a very low return rate and a really high reorder rate.

• 30:53Wes Larson?

  So there are a lot of really other iconic species in the Pantanal. You have giant river otters, ocelot, anaconda, mained wolf, puma, rhea, jabiru stork, hyacinth macaw, tapir, capybara. But for most visitors to the area, the jaguars are the most sought after wildlife sighting. And during the summer, you can find them patrolling the banks of different rivers and waterways. Which one did you ooh at, Jeff?

• 31:17Jeff Larson?

  Uh, the mained wolf.

• 31:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I'm gonna try pretty hard for that one. Once I have my time in between trips.

• 31:22Jeff Larson?

  One trip by yourself.

• 31:24Wes Larson?

  Well, there just isn't time to do it on our trip.

• 31:26Jeff Larson?

  I'm just kidding.

• 31:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Jeff Larson?

  Mike would be most stoked, I'm guessing, for a giant anteater.

• 31:32Mike Smith?

  That would be sweet.

• 31:33Jeff Larson?

  Did you even notice that?

• 31:34Wes Larson?

  I didn't say that. They are there. They're a lot easier to find in the southern Pantanal. We always see them down there. In the northern Pantanal, they're a little trickier, but we are gonna try for them on our trip.

• 31:44Jeff Larson?

  Too bad for them, they're not, they're not caiman eaters.

• 31:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah. They're ants and termites. Lots of ants and termites do. Yeah. It's without a doubt the best place in the world to see jaguars. Uh, I interviewed a jaguar researcher in Mexico that had been studying them for decades. He had yet to see one in the wild, but I've had days in the Pantanal where I've seen like five or six different jaguars. So it's, it's really the best place to see them. It's, Mexico's hard. They don't show up much in Mexico. All right. One more interesting tidbit about the Pantanal is that about 95% of it is owned privately. Most of that being large scale cattle ranches. So with so many cattle being raised in this wetland, there's a lot of cattle kills by jaguars.

• 32:30Wes Larson?

  A 2010 study looked at kills from 10 different collared jaguars and found that about a third of their diet was cattle. And you guys remember, they have kind of two ways that they like to kill prey. Do you guys remember what it is?

• 32:42Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I know one. They crush the skulls with their jaws because they have a really powerful bite.

• 32:49Wes Larson?

  Yep. So the skull or the back of the neck are kind of what jaguars go for. And it's just crushing the vertebrae, crushing the skull. And then if they have something really big that they're having a hard time with, they'll switch to the front of the throat, like a lot of other cats do, and suffocate it. But they do like to grab the back of the neck or the back of the skull. So even with all these cattle depredations, lots of jaguars existing in a place that now has a pretty decent human footprint, we really don't see many attacks on humans. And I read a few different books on jaguars, and I really like this theory that Alan Rabbinowitz, who's the guy that started the group Pantera, not the band, the conservation organization. Mike, I was ahead of you on that one.

• 33:30Mike Smith?

  I was getting excited there.

• 33:33Wes Larson?

  He suggested in this book, "An Indomitable Beast: The Remarkable Journey of a Jaguar, A Reason for Why Maybe They Don't Attack Many People." And I do think this is very interesting, so we're gonna spend a little extra time on it. All right?

• 33:45Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 33:46Wes Larson?

  Okay. So the earliest bipedal primates evolved about seven million years ago in Africa. So these are our oldest kind of ancestors that started walking on two legs. And then the earliest Homo species, so like, you know, Homo sapiens is what we are, but the earliest of our Homo ancestors. And I don't want to make any jokes about that.

• 34:10Mike Smith?

  Jeff and I were straight face.

• 34:12Wes Larson?

  I know.

• 34:12Mike Smith?

  We were.

• 34:13Wes Larson?

  I'm sorry.

• 34:13Mike Smith?

  That was all on you.

• 34:14Jeff Larson?

  He and Mike are straight.

• 34:16Wes Larson?

  They started, they started about two million years ago in Africa. So those early human ancestors were fairly easy prey for the large cats that existed in Africa. Cats like leopards and lions had basically evolved alongside people and existed for millions of years like in the same places. So we were squarely in their prey category. Like, as soon as we started coming down out of trees, they started preying on us, and we evolved alongside each other.

• 34:48Jeff Larson?

  Alongside homos and non-homos.

• 34:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:51Mike Smith?

  They don't differentiate, they don't discriminate. It's really nice of them.

• 34:55Wes Larson?

  We don't either. I just want to make that clear. It was only after we developed into more complex societies and started creating technology like spears, bows and arrows, all of that, that we managed to really remove ourselves from their prey category and place ourselves more into the threat arena. But a common thought-

• 35:15Jeff Larson?

  That'd piss me off if I was there, like, what the-

• 35:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 35:18Mike Smith?

  Yeah, we feed these things, and now they kill us. Yeah.

• 35:22Jeff Larson?

  Like if an animal did that to us, that'd suck.

• 35:24Wes Larson?

  A common thought, though, is because men spent so much time, early man spent so much time with the earliest leopards, lions, tigers, that we spent long enough in their regular prey, that some of those instincts have carried through in those cats. And that's why those cats are more likely to occasionally kill humans for food, because that instinct has just been baked into their biology. Now, the Eurasian jaguar came on the scene in Europe and Asia about 2 million years ago. That's their oldest kind of diversion from other cats. It spread throughout Eurasia during that time, and then severe climatic disruptions during the Pleistocene.

• 36:05Wes Larson?

  So the Pleistocene is kind of what we refer to as like the Ice Age. That's when we had like mammoths and saber-toothed tigers and all those different animals.

• 36:12Mike Smith?

  That one little mouse with the acorn.

• 36:14Wes Larson?

  The mouse with the acorn, let's not forget him. He's the one that ended it for us.

• 36:18Mike Smith?

  Scrap.

• 36:19Jeff Larson?

  America, I think you got it. America had like cheetahs and lions too, right?

• 36:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah, and there's some debate over kind of where they evolved from. But exactly, like, this is when we had some pretty crazy animals all over the world, and these climatic disruptions caused Eurasian jaguars to disperse further. And they first crossed the Bering Land Bridge, which connected Asia and North America about a million years ago. So let's put a pin in that one. That's about when they started coming over to North America. And as they moved southward, they spread out through North, Central, and South America. And more climatic shifts would go on to establish their range throughout what is now the southern part of the United States, down through Argentina. So up until a couple hundred years ago, you could find jaguars in like Arizona, New Mexico, California,

• 37:09Wes Larson?

  probably up in Utah even. Yeah, actually, there is one in Arizona right now that's been hanging out. So they do occasionally still venture into the States. But really, their main range now starts in northern Mexico and it goes all the way down into northern Argentina. So humans would only cross the Bering Land Bridge about 20,000 years ago. So again, jaguars crossed it a million years ago, and humans only crossed it about 20,000 years ago. Which means that North American jaguars essentially spent close to a million years living in the Americas with absolutely no human intervention, no human contact, and they just pretty much evolved away from humans for most of their history.

• 37:51Wes Larson?

  And when humans did show up, they were already advanced enough to hunt jaguars, to hunt the prey of jaguars. So they were never really seen as prey by these cats.

• 38:02Mike Smith?

  That makes sense.

• 38:03Wes Larson?

  They were really only seen as threats. And that is kind of the best guess as to why jaguars really hardly ever hunt humans. When you do hear about attacks, there are almost always some extenuating circumstances. And we don't have these stories of prolific jaguar man eaters like we do with leopards, lions, and tigers.

• 38:22Mike Smith?

  Interesting.

• 38:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah. But evolutionary history isn't always enough to overpower the prey drive in a large animal like a jaguar. And circumstances can lead to them being potentially very dangerous to humans. Those circumstances can include hunting with dogs, rapid habitat and prey loss, habituation, and food conditioning. And that's exactly what was happening with the large jaguar that was waiting patiently outside of George's kitchen on the morning of April 21st, 2025. Like most mornings, George was one of the first up at the small fishing lodge. He quietly hummed to himself as he made his morning coffee. The sun wasn't even up yet, but the light was starting to penetrate into the sky. And as he sipped this really

• 39:08Wes Larson?

  strong Brazilian coffee, he stared out at the Miranda River. And the floods of the wet season were starting to recede already. Soon the dry season would bring a lot more visitors, both fishermen and wildlife photographers. And he's really enjoying some of the last few truly quiet moments of the spring as he steps out of the screened in kitchen and into the last few minutes of his life. So the next bit is going to be a bit of a reconstruction of what I kind of feel like probably happened based on evidence that was left behind. There were no direct witnesses to what happened, but there was a lot of evidence. So I'm going to kind of try and piece it together, but just take it with a grain of salt. This could have gone slightly differently from how I'm describing it.

• 39:52Wes Larson?

  The jaguar had been patiently waiting for any hunting opportunity and was ready to kill any dog, cow, or human that crossed its path. So when George stepped out of the building and into clear view as he walked toward the river, its stare narrowed in on this 60-year-old man. It crept forward slowly and then sprinted. George turned at the sound of fast footfalls behind him, and he only had seconds to register the charging jaguar. He managed to avoid the first charge, start running for the nearest door into the home, which is only a couple dozen feet away, but it could have been a few miles. The jaguar quickly changed direction and plowed into him, and in one quick motion, it wrapped its large paws with razor-sharp claws around his shoulders, pulled his head

• 40:36Wes Larson?

  and his neck toward its mouth. The male jaguar was already biting the back of George's neck and head by the time they hit the ground together, and he didn't even have time to scream before the powerful bite crushed his vertebrae and skull and rendered him completely motionless, possibly dead.

• 40:53Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 40:54Wes Larson?

  It then dragged his limp body down this wooden walkway that led to the river, where it readjusted its bite and finished killing him only meters from the back stoop of the lodge. When it was certain that he was dead, it continued dragging the body into the nearby jungle, where it then began to feed in the darkness of the undergrowth. One of George's neighbors, a local fishing guide, showed up around 9:00 a.m. and called for his friend, but no one answered. And this guy would routinely come to the lodge to buy some of the honey that they made on the grounds, and when he continued to call for George but no one answered, he decided to walk around the building to try and find his friend. And as he rounded the house, he immediately noticed a ton of jaguar prints in the sand,

• 41:36Wes Larson?

  some of them really deep and long and spread out, like the track of a jaguar that was running and jumping. And then he noticed dark stains on the wood of the walkway to the river, as well as George's flip-flop and cellphone. So it doesn't look really good. This guy lives in this area. He kind of pieces together what's going on, so he pulls out his phone and starts recording. And this video is available online. A lot of it, on some of the ones I found, it's blurred out, but some of them it's not. So just so you know, if you want to find this, you can. It's not that intense, or it's intense, but it's not that graphic, but pretty much you see him document all the paw prints. He says like, this probably just happened 20 minutes ago.

• 42:17Wes Larson?

  And then there's a large amount of blood on the walkway. And you can see some pieces of tissue and a, there's a piece of human skull.

• 42:25Mike Smith?

  Wow, man.

• 42:26Wes Larson?

  There are drag marks leading into the jungle. And this guy pretty much says, this is where it dragged him. This was definitely a jaguar. He immediately understood what happened. So he called the local authorities and some of the other local guides and fishermen and some of George's family. A search party was quickly mounted. Some of his family helped lead military police and others through the dense jungle surrounding the lodge. They searched the whole day, but as the sun started to dip in the afternoon, they had to postpone the search until the next day. You don't want to be searching for a jaguar that killed someone at night. The next morning around 10 a.m., part of the search group noticed circling black vultures. And the search convened on the area directly underneath those vultures.

• 43:08Wes Larson?

  And there they found the partially consumed and cached body of George. You guys know what cached means? We've said it before on the podcast.

• 43:16Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it's just when predators will like bury a corpse a bit to keep it away from other animals.

• 43:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it kind of hides it, cuts down on the scent. Exactly, Mike. It's pretty common in cats especially, but bears will do it sometimes too.

• 43:31Jeff Larson?

  I think you said alligators do it too, right?

• 43:34Wes Larson?

  Alligators will cache, but for them, I think it's more just kind of saving it for later. It's not so much to like, get it away from other things.

• 43:42Mike Smith?

  You ever cache? What'd you have for lunch today, Jeff? Do you cache any of it? Or did you just scarf it all down?

• 43:47Jeff Larson?

  I did. I cached half a pizza.

• 43:49Wes Larson?

  See? In your mustache?

• 43:50Mike Smith?

  Buried it in the dirt outside?

• 43:53Wes Larson?

  It'd be so weird if you walk out and your neighbor is just like throwing dirt on a pizza.

• 43:57Mike Smith?

  It's like a Wendy's bag.

• 43:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Mike Smith?

  Nothing. There's nothing here.

• 44:03Jeff Larson?

  When they see you just run away.

• 44:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they scrawl at you. Spray some Febreeze around it. So they found his partially consumed body. Um, as they began to inspect it and look for more evidence, a jaguar rushed from the dense brush and charged the search party.

• 44:20Jeff Larson?

  Whoa.

• 44:20Wes Larson?

  One of the men in the search party had to fire at this cat and retreated back into the jungle. I don't believe he hit it. There are theories out there that there was two jaguars involved in this whole story and that it's unclear which is which.

• 44:33Jeff Larson?

  It seemed like there's two at his property for a bit, right?

• 44:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And I did read, I read one article said that one of them was shot and one of them was what we're going to hear about happened to the other one. But, um, I kind of don't know if I believe that article. I feel like it was just one that was involved in all of this.

• 44:51Mike Smith?

  Would that have been a coincidence or did they, do they work together sometimes? Or are they often near each other like that? I thought they were kind of more solitary creatures.

• 44:59Wes Larson?

  Sometimes related males, after they disperse from their mom, kind of like bears will stick together for a little bit and hunt together and whatnot. But generally, once they start mating and they're, they're really like in their prime, they're not, males especially won't hang out with any other jaguars. Females will hang out with their cubs.

• 45:16Mike Smith?

  Bro in the same room while they're mating?

• 45:18Wes Larson?

  Dude, they just gotta over it.

• 45:20Mike Smith?

  You gotta get out of here, man.

• 45:21Wes Larson?

  It's a bonding experience.

• 45:25Wes Larson?

  I'm just kidding.

• 45:26Mike Smith?

  Jeff's never invited me.

• 45:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 45:30Jeff Larson?

  Stop trying to invite yourself.

• 45:33Mike Smith?

  I'm just dropping hints. I'm not insisting.

• 45:38Wes Larson?

  Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to? Quince has all of the good stuff. They have high quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers from warm weather, all at prices that make sense. And they really do have a lot of stuff. I have been able to buy a number of things from Quince now. Every time I get on the website, I have a really hard time kind of narrowing down what I actually want to buy. Because there are so many things that look really cool and I know that they're all really affordable. So it's really hard not to overdo it. They have closet staples you want to reach for over and over again. One of my personal new favorites are their European linen. Linen pants. I ordered some of those. They're just super comfortable. They're kind of the pants I want to throw on when I feel like I need to wear something a little bit nicer than sweats.

• 46:20Wes Larson?

  But I don't necessarily want to put on like restrictive hard pants. So I just really like those European linen pants. I also just bought their Tulum sunglasses and I'm loving those two. They're really good looking. They're polarized. I just really like everything that I've gotten from Quince. And the best part is everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. They're cutting out the middlemen. They're giving you luxury pieces without the markup and they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices with premium fabrics and finishes. So keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com/ tooth for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

• 47:05Wes Larson?

  That's Q U I N C E dot com slash tooth to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash tooth. Have I told you guys about how much I love my cat? I know I have, but I'm going to tell you some more. I really love him. I'm about to leave for Brazil for a month and I just keep looking at Toad and thinking, man, what a perfect cat. He's so sweet. He's just so precious. And that's why I really do think it's important that we feed him really good food. And that's why I love to tell you guys about Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients that you would find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com names Smalls their best overall cat food.

• 47:47Wes Larson?

  I have to imagine there's like a cats.com award gala. They invited Smalls. They presented them with a huge trophy for their best overall cat food. I'm sure it's the, you know, the award of the year. So good job, Smalls. And to get 60% off your first order plus free shipping, you can head to Smalls.com/ tooth for a limited time only. My cat's favorite flavor is the smooth bird and fish dish. It's kind of a mixture of both fish and chicken. He just really likes it. Toad isn't that picky, but he definitely prefers Smalls way more than his previous cat food. We've done. Test and he just always goes straight to the smalls. Um, it was started in 2017 by a couple of guys cooking home cat food in small batches for their friends.

• 48:31Wes Larson?

  And a few short laters, they've served millions of meals to cats across the U.S. And I just really like that. I like that it's good, fresh food that is going to make your cat feel and look healthier. Eighty-eight percent of cat owners that started feeding their cats smalls reported overall health improvements, which is a big deal. So for a limited time only, because you're a tooth and claw listener, you can get 60% off your first smalls order plus free shipping. When you head to smalls.com slash tooth, that's 60% off when you head to smalls.com slash tooth. Plus free shipping. Again, that's smalls.com slash tooth. All right. So one of the men fires at this cat. It runs back into the jungle.

• 49:14Wes Larson?

  George's remains were removed and taken to a safer place for the team to conduct their investigation. And at this point, about half of his body had been consumed by this jaguar or by two jaguars. A team was set up at the lodge to hopefully sedate and capture the jaguar responsible for the killing. And a few nights later, they successfully sedated the cat when it showed back up at the lodge. And that's for me, if like it shows back up, that's probably the one that was responsible. It was a large male. It was a bit malnourished, relatively old, but still in okay shape. There wasn't like what I'm trying to say there is there wasn't like a big injury. They would say like, oh, this is why it was hunting people. It's not like it had like a broken foot.

• 49:56Wes Larson?

  Or is missing its canines or anything like this was a jaguar that could have hunted natural prey.

• 50:02Mike Smith?

  Okay. Yeah. The detail, I'm sorry, you're probably. No, no, no. I was just gonna ask, when the jaguar rushed at the group, or at least the guy who had the gun? That seems unusual to me. It seems like these animals aren't usually trying to get into it with humans at the very least. Like, is this just like an extra aggressive one or?

• 50:23Wes Larson?

  No, so that's, that's kind of the, the contradictory thing about jaguars. Is they don't really attack people that much, but from what I've heard, when they're cornered, they are like gnarlier than any other cat. Like they. Just really put on a big display and really get super angry when they're in a bad situation. I remember we went to the Hogal Zoo once when I was a kid when they had jaguars. And the zookeeper said that if that, if the jaguar got out, it would be the animal that would do the most damage.

• 50:55Jeff Larson?

  Really?

• 50:56Wes Larson?

  She was like, that is our animal that would do the most. Yeah. Which I thought was really interesting. So I don't think that's at all abnormal, especially where it was probably trying to guard its kill. It doesn't seem strange at all to me. Uh, I watched a lot of interviews with experts that investigated this case. They talked to locals. They were all pretty confident that there was some feeding going on and that the cat had become food conditioned, or at the very least habituated. And I do think it's important to note that George's family denies any feeding whatsoever. And they say that there's no way that he would have fed these animals. This didn't happen very long ago. They're still reeling from this, I'm sure. And I don't want to leave the impression that he was like bad in any way.

• 51:42Wes Larson?

  Uh, he was a beloved member of this community. People absolutely loved him. He cared deeply about the punt and all. And I do think it's important that we realize that sometimes feeding and these sort of mistakes with wildlife are much more commonplace in countries like Brazil. And like, it is illegal to feed jaguars, but I've been to lodges where they feed ocelots to bring them in, where they feed different animals so that people can have this experience with them. And it's somewhat accepted in Brazil and it brings a lot of money toward conservation and ecotourism. So it's kind of a tricky subject.

• 52:16Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Because like, probably not great to feed wild animals, but also like money talks.

• 52:25Wes Larson?

  Helps, it helps protect them. Yeah. And like, a lot of us feed birds. I mean, you have a bird feeder. I have bird feeders and we kind of have accepted that that's okay.

• 52:34Jeff Larson?

  And I don't even do it for the money.

• 52:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And they're

• 52:39Mike Smith?

  Just for the love of the game.

• 52:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And there are some detrimental effects to even feeding birds. So I've really had to come to terms with that because when I went to the ocelot one, I was like, oh, this seems wrong. But then the more I thought about it's like an ocelot's not going to hurt anyone. It's not going to do any wrong. A lot of people get to see this one ocelot now that's food conditioned. And it kind of protects all the other ocelots in the area. So it's kind of a sacrificial lamb in a way. But I do think where you, for me, where I would draw the line with that is where you're feeding animals that can do damage or harm to people.

• 53:14Mike Smith?

  Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. So no, as, as the kind of the layman of the podcast, before we started doing this four or five years ago, whenever it was, I wouldn't really have had any misgivings about it. Like I, I don't know if I would have fed an animal like that, but if I saw someone else doing that, it wouldn't have even really registered on my radar, really like.

• 53:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 53:34Mike Smith?

  I just don't, I wouldn't judge anybody is, I guess what I'm saying.

• 53:38Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 53:38Mike Smith?

  Just for not having

• 53:39Wes Larson?

  I would have.

• 53:40Mike Smith?

  That knowledge.

• 53:41Wes Larson?

  I think I would have, but I think I've come a long way on kind of understanding that different countries do things differently. But I do think it's good that feeding jaguars is illegal in Brazil.

• 53:50Mike Smith?

  Yeah, sure.

• 53:51Wes Larson?

  And ultimately it may have cost this man his life, which is far too big of a price, in my opinion. Okay.

• 54:00Wes Larson?

  You guys have any questions about the story?

• 54:02Mike Smith?

  That's sad, man. That

• 54:03Wes Larson?

  It's really sad.

• 54:04Mike Smith?

  Taking the, the footage and wandering down, I just can't imagine seeing your friend, like a, a portion of his skull. And it's just like so grisly. That's, that's really tough.

• 54:13Wes Larson?

  And kind of like with an animal that you have just come to see as not being a threat. You know, like you know, deep down that they could kill you, but you've just kind of learned like it's not ever going to do it. Then suddenly that just shatters that whole reality for you. So yeah, it's, it's pretty gnarly.

• 54:31Jeff Larson?

  It's very sad and our hearts go out to, um.

• 54:35Wes Larson?

  George.

• 54:36Jeff Larson?

  How do you say?

• 54:37Wes Larson?

  George.

• 54:38Jeff Larson?

  George and his family. But I don't know, this story is, I think it's kind of. The reason Jaguars have been my favorite animal for the majority of my life too is just like, it was so good at killing, like, once it put its mind to it, you know? It's just like, the way they can just like bite through a skull is insane.

• 55:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I do think if you're gonna be killed by a big cat, this is one of the ones that's gonna do it the quickest.

• 55:07Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they're amazing animals and I was really impressed that the people that responded to this wanted to sedate it. And it's, from what I learned, it went to like a, like a rehab center. And it's never going back out in the wild, but it'll probably be used in some sort of like wildlife rehabilitation purpose for education. So, yeah, I do think it was impressive to me that it wasn't just like, uh, we have to kill all the Jaguars in the area as quickly as possible.

• 55:37Jeff Larson?

  That's great.

• 55:38Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 55:38Jeff Larson?

  I like that you did this story and our listeners going to Brazil with us in a couple of days will probably hear it like on their plane ride to.

• 55:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 55:47Jeff Larson?

  Our trip.

• 55:49Wes Larson?

  I'm specifically gonna tell them to listen to it. I do, like, I, once I was on a boat in the Ponte Ano and there was a Jaguar off the front of the boat, I was on the very front and it was 10 feet away from me in the water. And I remember thinking, I am far too comfortable with this cat. It's kind of like the crocodile in Borneo.

• 56:08Jeff Larson?

  Dude.

• 56:08Wes Larson?

  Like, this thing could kill me if it wanted to right now and I wouldn't even be able to react. And no one has a gun, no one has any way to stop it. And like, we need to remember that, you know, that they, they have this potential.

• 56:24Mike Smith?

  That wouldn't have made for a very good react video on YouTube, just not even able to react at all. Yeah. Not even able to make the face.

• 56:33Jeff Larson?

  It seems like one of the animals too where like, having help around you, I mean, it's always good to have like people around you. But it seems like one of the animals where you have the least amount of time to actually save the person being attacked.

• 56:48Wes Larson?

  Like, you might save them, but they might be paralyzed for the rest of their life or, yeah, exactly. All right. Well, with that, then I think we're gonna leave our story and move on to categories. Um, I have some really interesting conservation stuff to talk about, but let's save that for a little later.

• 57:05Mike Smith?

  Yeah. All right. So the first category is your favorite media from Brazil, from a Brazilian, or anything that even mentions Brazil. So just any kind of pop culture that is Brazil focused. I said a Brazilian because there's lots of like famous Brazilian songwriters like.

• 57:24Jeff Larson?

  Well, I was thinking of like the Brazilian wax job and Forty Year Old Virgin.

• 57:31Jeff Larson?

  But I'm gonna go with just the Brazilian national soccer team. As a kid, I was obsessed with soccer. I was obsessed with Brazil especially. And it's always been because like their style of soccer is the most entertaining to watch. They don't always win it, but they do win a lot of World Cups and like, they just seem to always have the most exciting player in the tournament. Or like the person who can do like the coolest footwork. And I love watching their national team play in the World Cup.

• 58:04Mike Smith?

  Who's your favorite Brazilian soccer player, do you think?

• 58:08Jeff Larson?

  Ever? I mean, growing up, I loved Pele. Uh, even though I didn't even really watch him. But I guess I'd probably have to go with Neymar. Like Neymar is so cool.

• 58:20Mike Smith?

  He is cool. We were like, all through high school, I was on the soccer team. Like, we all just practiced all day long, the Ronaldinho trick.

• 58:29Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 58:30Mike Smith?

  Just an incredible football player.

• 58:32Jeff Larson?

  That Ronaldo, like free kick where he kicks it from like half the field away.

• 58:38Mike Smith?

  It's incredible. Uh, I'm gonna go with, I never have gotten all the way into Brazilian music very much, but I got introduced to Sayu Jorge through Life Aquatic when he's doing the David Bowie music.

• 58:52Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 58:52Mike Smith?

  Oh, man. And that's kind of like my entry way into the music. I think it probably like Brazil soul. I don't even know, samba.

• 59:01Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 59:01Mike Smith?

  It's a doorway I haven't all the way walked through yet, but there is a doorway to it. It's gonna be Sayu. I love that guy. He's amazing.

• 59:10Wes Larson?

  Have you listened to his non David Bowie covers?

• 59:13Mike Smith?

  Uh huh.

• 59:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah, samba music, I just absolutely love it. I lived in Brazil. I speak Portuguese and they have some really, really bad music there that I just hate. That's kind of like, almost like a dubstep-y kind of thing, but man, samba, especially like good classic samba, just really hits for me like nothing else. So I really like it. I picked the movie City of God, which is directed by Fernando Mireles and Kachi Alund. It's an incredible movie. I think it holds with like all of the great crime movies of the last, you know, 50 years. It, every time I watch it, I just get totally immersed in it. It's such a beautiful story about life in the favela in Rio

• 59:55Wes Larson?

  and kind of talks about how the favelas were even created. And it's just a really interesting window into that part of Brazilian life. And for those of you who don't know, the favela is kind of like the shanty towns that you see built on the hillsides in Brazil. And um.

• 1:00:09Mike Smith?

  Yeah, The Rock runs over the top of them in Fast and Furious 5.

• 1:00:12Wes Larson?

  Exactly.

• 1:00:13Mike Smith?

  That's how you'll probably know him.

• 1:00:15Wes Larson?

  Jeff. And Fast Five is like one of the only, the first time that they were allowed to like film an American movie in a favela. So.

• 1:00:21Jeff Larson?

  Bad Boys 2 is where they really go for that.

• 1:00:25Wes Larson?

  In Brazil?

• 1:00:26Jeff Larson?

  I don't think it's Brazil.

• 1:00:27Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:00:28Jeff Larson?

  But they like just drive Hummers through like, they kill like 400 people, I feel like, just driving Hummers through house after house after house.

• 1:00:40Wes Larson?

  All right. Next category. Craziest thing that you ever personally captured on a video?

• 1:00:45Jeff Larson?

  Fast Five would have been a good answer for that, actually.

• 1:00:47Mike Smith?

  It's a great movie.

• 1:00:48Wes Larson?

  It would have.

• 1:00:49Mike Smith?

  Or Brazil by Terry Gilliam, now that we're talking about it.

• 1:00:52Jeff Larson?

  I couldn't think of a good one for this.

• 1:00:55Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I, I mean, you guys know that I rarely ever have a camera out. I did film myself once trying to jump over a fence and I completely cased it. Like I hit my, the tip of my toe on the top banister and just face planted on the grass. I could, I could probably find that if we want to post it somewhere, but.

• 1:01:15Jeff Larson?

  You filmed it?

• 1:01:16Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I just set up like a tripod. It was, it was like. I have no idea why. It was when I was like twenty three years old. It's weird. I don't know what that was all about.

• 1:01:26Wes Larson?

  I have a lot of good ones featuring you, Jeff, but I guess you didn't record them personally, like the vine in Hawaii.

• 1:01:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but okay. For me, mine is definitely, well, not definitely, but the one that comes to mind is, uh, the moose being chased by the grizzly bear that I recorded last year is kind of like lucked into. I was recording a moose that like ran at the front of my car and then it turned and looked behind it and I knew something was about to come out of the woods. And sure enough, a big grizzly bear chased it out and that was pretty cool.

• 1:01:58Jeff Larson?

  You texted us, you called it, you're like, I just took a video that's gonna go viral.

• 1:02:05Wes Larson?

  By far my most viral video.

• 1:02:07Jeff Larson?

  I had like a few people send me that video without knowing the context that you took it.

• 1:02:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I had, I had a lot of people send it to me.

• 1:02:20Wes Larson?

  And be like, yeah, that's my video. Okay. The next one that I wanted you guys to do was, because I think both of you are probably gonna see your last big cat. I'm curious what your next group of animals you would want a bucket list is. So for me, I think it's sharks. Like I have four or five shark species that I really wanna see. And then I'll be, I'll feel like I've seen like the sharks that I wanted to see.

• 1:02:45Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that was my knee jerk.

• 1:02:48Jeff Larson?

  See, we, we just sold China. I don't think we're gonna actually, but we're doing panda stuff.

• 1:02:53Wes Larson?

  We're gonna, we're gonna see pandas as much in the wild as you can really do, which is in that like research center. No one else really sees them anywhere else. So, yeah.

• 1:03:03Mike Smith?

  What'll you have besides pandas? Spectacle?

• 1:03:10Wes Larson?

  Asiatic black, polar for Jeff.

• 1:03:12Mike Smith?

  Well, yeah, I guess that's true.

• 1:03:14Wes Larson?

  After we see pandas, I'll just have sun and Asiatic black.

• 1:03:18Mike Smith?

  Sun almost feels like those are the ones that we saw in Borneo, right? In the wildlife reserve? That almost seems like a panda situation, the way Kurt was, our guide was talking about him. Like, it's so rare.

• 1:03:29Wes Larson?

  In Borneo, but there's other places where they're a little bit easier to find.

• 1:03:32Jeff Larson?

  Even like in, what, wasn't it Taiwan where the whole airport had like, um, sun bears? No, that's Asiatic black bears, right? Remember that airport that had like the paintings of bears all over?

• 1:03:46Wes Larson?

  Yep, yeah. And there, there, you can find them in like Japan, a few different countries where Asiatic black bears are.

• 1:03:54Mike Smith?

  Land of the rising sun bear.

• 1:03:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah, cool. Mike, it's sharks for you as well?

• 1:03:58Mike Smith?

  Yeah, my backup was I want to try every kind of fruit.

• 1:04:02Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:04:03Mike Smith?

  I'm a big fruit fan.

• 1:04:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:05Mike Smith?

  I like fruit.

• 1:04:06Wes Larson?

  Alright, you do? Fruity guy?

• 1:04:08Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Wes Larson?

  Spots or stripes? What do you guys think? Knee jerk answer.

• 1:04:11Mike Smith?

  Stripe. For me, it's spots.

• 1:04:13Wes Larson?

  Spots. Celebrity doppelganger. So what celebrity reminds you most of a Jaguar or play a Jaguar in the, the movie?

• 1:04:23Mike Smith?

  I picked Dave Batista.

• 1:04:24Wes Larson?

  Oh, interesting. Okay.

• 1:04:26Mike Smith?

  Just like a solid, dense, muscular kind of guy. Something about the head reminds me of a Jaguar head somehow.

• 1:04:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah, like the kind of chunky jaw and stuff.

• 1:04:35Mike Smith?

  Very strong, I guess, basically.

• 1:04:38Wes Larson?

  I went along the same lines as you, but I think he was too big. Like, he's like too physically, like, he's a lion for me. Or a tiger. So I picked Tom Hardy for a Jaguar. Cause I feel like he's a little bit stockier and not as tall, but just like still bulky. But also very handsome, you know? So he kind of like has all the things that I associate with the Jaguar.

• 1:05:02Mike Smith?

  Oh, Dave's got his own allure.

• 1:05:04Wes Larson?

  He does.

• 1:05:04Jeff Larson?

  I think they're the most beautiful cat, so I went with Anna De Armas.

• 1:05:12Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:05:12Jeff Larson?

  Just like, both have like really strikingly like, um, hazel eyes. They both seem pretty nice when you look at them. They're like that. I would, you know, you're like, I would touch that when you see you there.

• 1:05:26Wes Larson?

  Right.

• 1:05:27Jeff Larson?

  But then it's like, yeah, but then it's like, oh, they got some bite to them too, I think.

• 1:05:34Wes Larson?

  Yeah, ballerina.

• 1:05:36Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Wes Larson?

  We've seen that movie.

• 1:05:37Mike Smith?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:05:37Wes Larson?

  Anna De Armas is hanging out with Tom Cruise too. He'll kick your ass.

• 1:05:41Mike Smith?

  You should food condition Anna De Armas, Jeff, to see if that like gets you in.

• 1:05:49Wes Larson?

  Maybe she'll kill you.

• 1:05:50Jeff Larson?

  I'm pretty happy with my.

• 1:05:51Wes Larson?

  I don't know. I wouldn't mind being killed by Anna de Armas.

• 1:05:54Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:56Wes Larson?

  She does that like thing where she wraps her legs around your neck and chokes you out. I'm gonna die a happy man.

• 1:06:01Jeff Larson?

  Like in GoldenEye?

• 1:06:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Wes Larson?

  All right. I got a few listener questions here from our Patreon. This one is from Jamie.

• 1:06:14Wes Larson?

  I just finished this one's for me. I just finished In Harm's Way. I immediately mass text my family and posted the Facebook link to the podcast and the book. Thank you. I ordered Left 4 Dead and about to start the other. I'm just curious which was your favorite? These are the books about the USS Indianapolis. My favorite was actually In Harm's Way, the one that you finished, but the other two are also great. And sorry I said your whole name. We'll have Mike cut out your last name.

• 1:06:39Jeff Larson?

  Someone will find her if you don't, Mike.

• 1:06:42Wes Larson?

  Pressure's on.

• 1:06:43Jeff Larson?

  Steal her identity.

• 1:06:45Wes Larson?

  Now I have to actually edit this episode with care. That's real disappointing. From Reka. Reka says, what's your favorite type of cetacean? Do you guys remember what cetaceans are?

• 1:06:57Jeff Larson?

  Whales.

• 1:06:58Wes Larson?

  Whales. Yep. A killer one? Orca? Is that a cetacean?

• 1:07:03Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Wes Larson?

  There you go, baby. Lock it in. Final answer. Family Feud points? What? Number one option, right?

• 1:07:08Jeff Larson?

  Probably.

• 1:07:09Wes Larson?

  A hundred billion points? Jeff, what's yours? Steve Harvey? Where we gotta get that guy on the line?

• 1:07:14Jeff Larson?

  I don't know cetaceans. I know citations.

• 1:07:17Wes Larson?

  All whales. Whales and dolphins.

• 1:07:20Jeff Larson?

  All whales and dolphins? I mean, Mike took orca.

• 1:07:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:26Jeff Larson?

  Humpbacks. I like humpbacks. Like, I think of all the whales, that'd be my saddest if they didn't exist, just because they're cool. There's the companies whose whole commercial strategy is just showing humpbacks breaching, and they've been doing it forever. And it's like, I like that Pacific life. I'll buy whatever they're selling.

• 1:07:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I love humpbacks. They were up there for me. I have to go with gray whales. It's the whale that I've spent the most time around. We've been on trips where we got to actually like, scratch them and kiss them. So I think I just have like, more of a bond with them than any other whale.

• 1:08:02Mike Smith?

  Humpback might actually be number one over even killer whale on Family Feud. People are really into humpbacks.

• 1:08:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah, or blue whale might be up there.

• 1:08:11Jeff Larson?

  That's why Anna de Armas isn't a gray whale, because like, gray whales, you can just touch them on the head, they don't care. Anna de Armas, I think if you just went and touched her on the head, she'd be like, more like a jaguar.

• 1:08:24Mike Smith?

  Bite her neck in half?

• 1:08:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Wes Larson?

  Alright, this one's from Katie. Katie says, "How many flamingos could you take in a fight? This is my husband's favorite question to ask, and while he isn't a listener, I thought would be the right place to ask the question."

• 1:08:40Mike Smith?

  You could clothesline like, a million flamingos so easily.

• 1:08:45Mike Smith?

  Lariat tackle?

• 1:08:46Jeff Larson?

  Here's the thing, we've talked about like, the toddler version of this question a few times, how many like toddlers could you take? And, we all just saw weapons, and like, those kids can do some damage, you know?

• 1:09:00Wes Larson?

  But those kids, those kids were like, demonically.

• 1:09:03Jeff Larson?

  They're a little older.

• 1:09:05Wes Larson?

  And they were, yeah, they were weapons.

• 1:09:06Jeff Larson?

  I'm just saying, like, once you get a big group or something, they start to get you pretty overwhelmed, so I'm just gonna say, seven.

• 1:09:14Wes Larson?

  I feel like flamingos, it's as many until I get too tired to punch anymore.

• 1:09:20Mike Smith?

  Punching would be a hard thing to do to a flamingo.

• 1:09:23Wes Larson?

  They got their like, little head.

• 1:09:25Mike Smith?

  Dude, flamingos would be so good at bobbing and weaving and boxing with their neck, they're just like, whoo.

• 1:09:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Jeff Larson?

  You'd get tired so fast.

• 1:09:36Mike Smith?

  I would hazard the guess to say, Wes, you're not even gonna be able to land a single punch on a flamingo.

• 1:09:41Wes Larson?

  Okay, I also though, like, just grabbing them then and putting them in like, headlocks and giving them noogies and stuff. I feel like, I could still take hundreds of flamingos.

• 1:09:52Mike Smith?

  Indian burn on the neck, oh my gosh.

• 1:09:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:55Mike Smith?

  I'm gonna go with sixty-four.

• 1:09:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's a good, that's a good number. If they're coordinated, if they're all, that's the whole question, you know, like, are they coming at once, or are they just acting like normal flamingos? You know?

• 1:10:07Mike Smith?

  You know what they call a group of flamingos? We're gonna be recording my subscriber episode shortly, and it's gonna be about flamingos. So I've been learning about them a little bit.

• 1:10:16Wes Larson?

  Alright, okay, I don't know.

• 1:10:18Mike Smith?

  A flamboyance, a flamboyance of flamingos.

• 1:10:21Wes Larson?

  That's perfect for them, yeah. Okay, this one's from Ben. Ben says, Ben enjoying your podcast forever. Ben, you totally dunked on yourself there.

• 1:10:31Jeff Larson?

  Funny.

• 1:10:32Wes Larson?

  Never thought to ask a question. If you could erase one song from existence, we never have to endure listening to it again. What song would it be? Minus Sweet Caroline. What song would you guys get rid of?

• 1:10:46Mike Smith?

  A Wonderful Christmas Time by Paul McCartney. I can't believe that he was involved in writing a song. That caliber.

• 1:10:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's so bumpy.

• 1:10:55Mike Smith?

  It's so bad. I, yeah.

• 1:10:57Wes Larson?

  Simply having a wonderful Christmas time.

• 1:11:00Mike Smith?

  It's brutal. I don't think I can stand to listen to it even one more time.

• 1:11:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that is a rough one. I have a really cute video of Jesse dancing to that one, like to her phone, that it kind of has endeared that song to me. But yeah.

• 1:11:14Mike Smith?

  I love Paul too. I love the Beatles. I love Paul. He just, everyone, you know, we all misfire sometimes.

• 1:11:20Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Like my, right now, my knee jerk is this song that Jeff and my dad kept singing on our float trip.

• 1:11:27Jeff Larson?

  That was my answer too.

• 1:11:29Wes Larson?

  I'm ready to play today.

• 1:11:33Jeff Larson?

  Centerfield.

• 1:11:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it, it was stuck in my head the entire trip.

• 1:11:40Jeff Larson?

  They played it in the car ride on the trip. So that was like the last thing in my brain. Once we went into the wilderness where you'd like have no connection to anything. And it's just like, I don't know, something about being in the wilderness without like technology, like your brain just starts reaching for it wherever it could get it. And that song was the last thing and I, I'm with Wes.

• 1:12:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's top of mind right now. So I would love to get rid of Baby Shark too.

• 1:12:09Jeff Larson?

  Someone he knew, like put that in for their song to be played at their funeral, which I've really lingered on a lot.

• 1:12:21Wes Larson?

  All right. Well, that's it for Patreon questions today. So I do have some interesting conservation stuff that I wanted to talk about. And I'm gonna try and do this like in a delicate way, because I think there's inferences you could draw from what I'm saying that wouldn't necessarily be true. But it's again from that book, An Indomitable Beast by Alan Urbina Witz. And this was really interesting to me, and I just wanted to talk about it. But basically, when these indigenous people of the Americas, when they arrived 20,000 years ago on the Bering Land Bridge, they too slowly spread out through the continents. And over time, we had people like the Olmec, the Maya, the Aztec, the Inca, that built civilizations

• 1:13:03Wes Larson?

  in Central and Southern America, or South America. And this was over thousands of years, these civilizations mostly existed independent of each other. But at the height of some of these civilizations, the thing that I think sometimes we don't realize is that there were thought to be tens of millions, even up to 100 million people, living throughout Central and South America in some of these civilizations. So a lot of people-

• 1:13:27Jeff Larson?

  It's crazy how much like, attention the pyramids get when like, you look in Central America and Mexico, and it's like, they got pyramids everywhere.

• 1:13:37Wes Larson?

  Right. And like-

• 1:13:38Jeff Larson?

  You don't think aliens built those?

• 1:13:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Uh huh. I do. There are some estimates that up to 5 million people lived in the Amazon alone, at the time of Columbus's arrival in the New World. So, just like a quick disclaimer here, I personally strongly believe that indigenous people are almost always the best conservationists, the best guardians, the most invested in their own lands. I think people that are from places tend to care about those places the most. And there are studies out there that show when we turn over conservation to indigenous groups, they tend to do a much better job. But what that doesn't mean is that every ancient indigenous society existed in total harmony with nature.

• 1:14:24Wes Larson?

  I think that's kind of almost like a weird stereotype that we've come up with that like every indigenous society is just like totally in harmony with all the animals and plants and everything. That's not necessarily the case.

• 1:14:35Jeff Larson?

  Sure.

• 1:14:35Wes Larson?

  The Maya, for example, did a ton of natural resource extraction and actually devastated a lot of the areas where they built their cities and communities. I think of Apocalypto, actually. You remember where they like catch jaguar paw and they're bringing them to that big city? And the closer they get, like the more kind of destroyed and gross everything is. There's actually some, some science behind that. The Maya weren't that great necessarily with foresight into like destroying natural resources. So even though it seems like a little crazy to think of Jaguars being in trouble that long ago, they were actually being pushed out a lot of their prime habitat during the time of the Maya, the Aztec and the Inca. When Europeans arrived in the New World, they wreaked

• 1:15:19Wes Larson?

  absolute devastation on the indigenous people of the Americas. And that was mostly through introduction of diseases and parasites. And this was genocide. This was destruction of these societies at the hands of these invaders that thought they were doing it in God's name. It's without a doubt, one of the most heinous things that's ever happened in the history of the world. But there may have been a bit of a silver lining for Jaguars. A lot of those human communities that suffered the greatest losses were ones that were located in prime Jaguar habitat. And after those people were gone, the European invaders, these Europeans didn't necessarily want to set up settlements like in the jungle or the wetlands. So they kind of left a lot of the wilderness alone.

• 1:16:05Wes Larson?

  And so to put it kind of bluntly, with far less people in these areas where Jaguars lived, they kind of got a bit of a reprieve from any kind of human interference. And that actually helped them avoid a lot of the slaughter that happened to other big cats around the world during the second millennium. Does that make sense?

• 1:16:23Jeff Larson?

  Before like humans really put their footprint on the Americas?

• 1:16:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Jeff Larson?

  What do you think would be like the best Jaguar territory? Is it still like the Pontenaw area?

• 1:16:35Wes Larson?

  Probably, but it was pretty good throughout. I mean, like, there was a lot of like, and that's the thing is Jaguars in different parts of their range specialize on different prey. So in places like northern Mexico, you're going to see them eating a lot of like javelina and deer, but in in the Pantanal, they almost solely eat caiman and capybara and a few other things. But I did think this was really interesting that this terrible awful thing that happened, which is the slaughter that Europeans brought to the Americas, kind of gave Jaguars this long period of time where they didn't really have to exist around people. And it saved them from really a lot of the destruction that happened to some of the other big cats.

• 1:17:20Wes Larson?

  Now that ramped back up after the Industrial Revolution, they faced a lot of threats, killing for their skins, killing from fear of predators, competition, tons of habitat loss. But their numbers were so much higher than a lot of the other big cats that we still have a lot of Jaguars. There's thought to be around 170,000 Jaguars current alive and currently alive in the world.

• 1:17:44Jeff Larson?

  So a lot more than I would have guessed.

• 1:17:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah, tigers, it's like 5,000.

• 1:17:48Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Wes Larson?

  So it's a lot more. Yeah, but they are under some really serious threats. They are highly at risk, one of the main ones being habitat loss and fragmentation. So when you have these fragmented populations, hotspots of Jaguars, but there's no way for them to pass in between. Do you guys remember what happens to those kind of populations?

• 1:18:09Jeff Larson?

  No.

• 1:18:10Wes Larson?

  So when they have these kind of island populations with no movement in between, there's no gene flow, and that means that you don't have really robust genetic material. And when that happens, they become really susceptible to disease and to different problems that they otherwise would be protected against. So it's really kind of a dangerous situation that we have these little pockets of Jaguars. It just, it puts them at much higher risk because you don't have these corridors.

• 1:18:39Jeff Larson?

  The main problem with orangutans, right?

• 1:18:41Wes Larson?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:43Jeff Larson?

  Had a lot of like, yeah.

• 1:18:45Wes Larson?

  They're cut off from each other.

• 1:18:46Jeff Larson?

  Trees cut out their territories.

• 1:18:49Wes Larson?

  Climate change is also a big problem facing Jaguars. You guys are going to see this firsthand when we go to the Pantanal, but it's been drastically changed by issues like drought and wildfire. And the Amazon's the same way. And those are the two biggest strongholds for Jaguars are the Pantanal and the Amazon.

• 1:19:04Jeff Larson?

  Isn't there like a strategy with Brazilian ranchers and like conservatives to like

• 1:19:10Wes Larson?

  Conservation.

• 1:19:11Jeff Larson?

  Intentionally have fires in the Amazon to like be able to grow their ranches and cattle ranches and like grow their because like their laws allow them to like take over fire areas. So then they purposely cause fires or something.

• 1:19:30Wes Larson?

  Yeah, lighting the fires is illegal, but once they're lit and all that area is destroyed, there's no one really stopping them from turning it into ranchland. And that happens a lot. And the fires have gotten really devastating as things have dried out. So there, there's been a lot of pressure to stop people from lighting fires, which is going to help Jaguars, hopefully. A new thing that's kind of happening is their parts are starting to be traded as imitation tiger parts in the Chinese medicine trade.

• 1:19:58Jeff Larson?

  What?

• 1:19:58Wes Larson?

  China. Yeah.

• 1:20:01Mike Smith?

  So that's extra dumb because Jaguars are already cool enough. No animal is cool enough that their parts should be in demand for themselves, but that's

• 1:20:10Wes Larson?

  But as imitation tigers, yeah. And then human wildlife conflict too. We, we lose them because of ranchers shooting them, attacking cattle or anything like that. So there are a lot of threats facing them. So even though we have a lot more Jaguars than we do some of the other big cats. They have this unique kind of perfect storm happening to where a lot of biologists are worried about their long-term survival.

• 1:20:33Jeff Larson?

  I wish China would just start being like, oh, mosquitoes make great medicine. Let's start taking all the mosquitoes from the Americas.

• 1:20:43Wes Larson?

  You know what we should eat is rocks. Let's eat rocks and grass. We should just, when we're over there, we should just start like, like bump someone and be like, hey, I heard those rocks over there will give you a boner if you eat them and maybe it'll take off.

• 1:20:58Mike Smith?

  No, you gotta give yourself a boner, then eat a rock and like let them see that eating that rock got you to have a boner.

• 1:21:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. You guys have any questions about their conservation?

• 1:21:14Jeff Larson?

  I just hope, I hope, I hope we figure it out. I hope Jaguars end up good.

• 1:21:19Wes Larson?

  I was really scared after last year's Pantanal trip, but I do think the drought's improved a little bit. So we'll see. We'll see this week. Uh, all right. Well, I just want you, we've ranked them before with claws. I just want to hear where they fall in your current big cat rankings. Prior to the trip, I want to know where they're at.

• 1:21:38Jeff Larson?

  I'm going to keep them at two for right now. I think they're going to quickly retake the number one spot, if not number one overall animal.

• 1:21:47Wes Larson?

  What's your first cat right now? Cheetah?

• 1:21:49Jeff Larson?

  Cheetah.

• 1:21:50Mike Smith?

  Cheetah. That's so tiger, cheetah, jaguar for me are my three. Top three.

• 1:21:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah. My top three are right now are tiger, puma, jaguar, but I'm, I think right now Jaguars are, are one.

• 1:22:04Jeff Larson?

  Wow. Nice. Jaguar club.

• 1:22:07Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I think.

• 1:22:09Jeff Larson?

  I like how when we were in Africa, I told you that when I hear cheetah, I think of Jurassic Park and shoot her. Shoot her. And now you always think of cheetah. Like when I told you that, you're like, yeah, I guess so. And now you still like have that in your brain.

• 1:22:27Mike Smith?

  I'm more, I think of Tanya Hadick saying Peta. Peta.

• 1:22:33Mike Smith?

  Quick update on her. Prison idiot.

• 1:22:35Wes Larson?

  Oh yeah. She's back in prison.

• 1:22:36Mike Smith?

  Are we, we're allowed to call her like a stupid, crazy idiot, right?

• 1:22:40Wes Larson?

  Let's save that for our news episode, but yeah.

• 1:22:42Jeff Larson?

  Let's leave that clip in there.

• 1:22:44Wes Larson?

  Yeah, we'll leave that in there. Sure. Oh, I forgot about.

• 1:22:47Mike Smith?

  Cause we weren't allowed to say that. I don't know if we're allowed to say what we weren't allowed to say on the HBO partnership.

• 1:22:52Jeff Larson?

  All my stuff got cut.

• 1:22:55Mike Smith?

  I just have a whole lot of internal strife still.

• 1:22:58Jeff Larson?

  I want, I need to get some stuff off about her too. So we'll go into it more in our news.

• 1:23:04Wes Larson?

  Great. Yeah. All right. I, yeah, I guess I'll put Ja, I think Jaguars are kind of the one that fill my number one when I haven't seen another big cat for a minute. But it's kind of a revolving door for me, but right now Jaguars are number one. All right. Well, we'll see you guys in a couple of days on our way to Brazil and we love all you listeners.

• 1:23:22Jeff Larson?

  Love you.

• 1:23:24Wes Larson?

  And we'll talk to you later.

• 1:23:25Jeff Larson?

  Eagle soar at 30 miles an hour.

• 1:23:28Wes Larson?

  There you go.

• 1:23:29Jeff Larson?

  Nice.

• 1:23:31Wes Larson?

  All right. Bye. We'll see ya. See ya.