Jack and the Killer Jellyfish

In 1961, toxinologist Jack Barnes thought up a novel way to test just how bad the sting of the Irukandji jellyfish is. And the award for worst father goes to.... Watch here: https://youtu.be/hSHvlJ0jjGs ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Jeff Larson?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We are Wes, Jeff, and Mike. Wes is our bear biologist, and we love him. I'm Wes's little brother. I was his field tech with some black bears. And we have Mike Smith, who his favorite director is Quentin Tarantino, but only because of the foot fetish stuff. None of the other stuff.

• 0:36Mike Smith?

  True. It's really everything outside of the frame about him that makes me excited, not the movies themselves.

• 0:42Wes Larson?

  How good of a person he is in his personal life. Who is your favorite director, Mike?

• 0:48Mike Smith?

  That's a great question. That's such a good question, Wes.

• 0:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 0:51Mike Smith?

  I don't know.

• 0:52Jeff Larson?

  I answered that already.

• 0:54Mike Smith?

  Bergman. Is it Bergman? He is good. He's a persona. Check it out. Peep it. Seven Seal. Everyone go watch it.

• 1:00Jeff Larson?

  Some dude who died 50 years ago.

• 1:03Wes Larson?

  Miyazaki would be another guess.

• 1:05Mike Smith?

  That's actually a good one. Kurosawa. Sure.

• 1:08Jeff Larson?

  He just loves women's feet. Dirty, clean, pushed up on the window.

• 1:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they'll take them any way you can dish them out.

• 1:16Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 1:16Wes Larson?

  Go ahead and post your feet in the comments of this episode.

• 1:21Jeff Larson?

  DM directly to Mike.

• 1:23Mike Smith?

  That's one way to get me on social media.

• 1:25Wes Larson?

  So we've now, I think we've done every iteration of the three of us in solo episodes. Me and Mike just did a subscriber episode without Jeff.

• 1:35Jeff Larson?

  Where was that?

• 1:36Wes Larson?

  You, we're gonna get to that. It was a companion episode to this episode, so both of those episodes are gonna be dealing with the same species. And we talked about a guy who had a really unfortunate encounter while he was scuba diving. And Jeff, you had a pretty uncomfortable scuba experience lately.

• 1:53Jeff Larson?

  Yes.

• 1:54Wes Larson?

  Do you think that you were the most uncomfortable anyone's ever been scuba diving?

• 2:00Jeff Larson?

  You know, I would put my name in the hat for most uncomfortable on the boat, for sure.

• 2:05Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Jeff Larson?

  Like, sitting on the hard boat was really tough.

• 2:09Mike Smith?

  You want to let us know what happened?

• 2:10Jeff Larson?

  Once I got in the water, there's a little relief. Yeah, so, I mean, it goes back to our trip in India. Being in the Himalayas was rough on my lungs. And then we went on like safaris and I got a lot of dust in there. And I just kind of had a uncontrollable cough. So, two of our travelers were nice enough to give me some steroids that could kind of help with the respiration. And like, as soon as I heard the word steroids, I said, yes, you know?

• 2:37Mike Smith?

  You were popping crazy.

• 2:39Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 2:39Mike Smith?

  I think I overheard you say to Mike, like, just take a bunch of these.

• 2:44Jeff Larson?

  And I definitely didn't say that. Uh, we took like half the dose that you're even supposed to. It wasn't that many. But I took one a day for five days, like they told me to. But then, come to find out, one of the really rare side effects of that is erectile abscess.

• 3:01Mike Smith?

  Abscess.

• 3:01Jeff Larson?

  Which is just like a...

• 3:02Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 3:03Jeff Larson?

  Abscess.

• 3:03Mike Smith?

  Pararectal abscess.

• 3:05Jeff Larson?

  So, unluckily for me, that decided to show its head once me and Mike went on a trip to get our cousin scuba certified in Cozmo, Mexico. Which, you know, little island in Mexico, not too many options for me to go to get help. I start feeling a ton of pain and pressure in my ass.

• 3:27Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Jeff Larson?

  So I think maybe I'm constipated. So then I like start pushing harder than I've ever pushed before. And it's like, nothing's even starting or anything. And then, I'm just like, fucking scuba diving every day with it too. And it just hurts so bad. Mike, what was I doing when we weren't scuba diving?

• 3:49Mike Smith?

  You were just eating cereal bowls full of laxatives, basically, trying to take a dump.

• 3:55Jeff Larson?

  A record amount of laxatives because I just like wasn't, wasn't having no effect. And just laying in bed all day while we were just in the most beautiful place. I actually went to a doctor there and he was just kind of like, what do you think you have? I don't know. I think maybe I'm constipated. And he's like, yeah, maybe try laxatives. I was like, yeah, I have been. And he's like, oh, you could try an enema. So then I took some enemas.

• 4:23Mike Smith?

  Wow, this sounds familiar.

• 4:25Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, you know.

• 4:26Mike Smith?

  Did you try different positions like?

• 4:28Jeff Larson?

  I did. At first I just squatted and I got on my knees. And I kept doing it that way. So maybe, maybe there's something there to explore.

• 4:37Mike Smith?

  Maybe try it on your back next time.

• 4:39Jeff Larson?

  Just like romantically in the future. I mean.

• 4:42Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 4:42Jeff Larson?

  But so then I get home. The flight was just the most miserable flight of my entire life. Miserable like time of my entire life. I. There's like a tiny little Guatemalan lady next to me and she would like fall asleep forward. And I would shift every five minutes and she would wake up every single time I moved and I felt bad, but like I couldn't help it. So then I go to the doctors as soon as I get home and they were like, they didn't think it was this because I'd wait, I'd been in pain for like seven days and they. Once they found out I was an abscess or however you say it.

• 5:20Mike Smith?

  Abscess.

• 5:20Jeff Larson?

  Abscess. They were like, oh, you're like really tough. You should have been in here a while ago. If you had this pain for seven days, these are like really painful. I was like, yeah, I. It's kind of scuba diving.

• 5:33Jeff Larson?

  So then all of a sudden, next thing I know, I'm in surgery getting it out and.

• 5:39Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Jeff Larson?

  Uh, pretty surprising.

• 5:41Mike Smith?

  Did they let you keep it?

• 5:42Jeff Larson?

  And right now, they didn't. I don't think it's something you can really keep. I think it's something more like a gigantic pimple type situation where you burst it open.

• 5:53Mike Smith?

  Sure.

• 5:54Jeff Larson?

  Have you kept a pimple ever?

• 5:56Mike Smith?

  No, but you could. I mean.

• 5:58Jeff Larson?

  I don't think you could.

• 5:59Mike Smith?

  Just like a little vial of. Yeah, I don't even. There's probably someone out there that does.

• 6:04Jeff Larson?

  I can keep my gauze, I guess.

• 6:06Mike Smith?

  I will say though, thanks Jeff for keeping us. You really took us on a journey there with all the pictures you were sending.

• 6:12Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, the underwear one was probably, you guys didn't see that, but I just thought that gave a better like. Idea of where I was at for the day.

• 6:23Wes Larson?

  We would just get a photo of whatever was going on in Jeff's underwear with no context whatsoever.

• 6:28Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 6:28Wes Larson?

  He would say, here's an update.

• 6:30Jeff Larson?

  First, there's just like a little poop in my boxers and then

• 6:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Jeff Larson?

  Later, there was poop and blood. So I was like, I guess I'll update them on.

• 6:38Wes Larson?

  It didn't really, yeah, it wasn't very clear in those photos. I also woke up to one text that just said, I'm going to the hospital. And I was like, alright, so.

• 6:47Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I woke up to just incredibly severe ass pain in my ass. So I would, I'd say mine was scarier still.

• 6:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I'm not, I wasn't competing there. I wasn't saying that I suffered more than.

• 7:02Jeff Larson?

  But if it is a competition, I think I would.

• 7:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah, sure. Sounds like a real pain in the ass.

• 7:07Jeff Larson?

  Well, and I'm supposed to be at like my roommate's reunion right now in Vegas. So I was thinking it'd be funny if I just show up still. Just like blood dripping out of my leg, down my leg and like just go hard for 24 hours and come back.

• 7:25Mike Smith?

  That's funny because that's the kind of thing that I would, I would pray to get one of these pericardial abscesses instead of go to Vegas with my old roommates. I'd be like, I got the perfect excuse now.

• 7:36Jeff Larson?

  I don't know. I think it's cool. We meet up. So I don't want to, I, I try to do whatever I can.

• 7:42Mike Smith?

  That's just personally my, my whole vibe these days.

• 7:45Jeff Larson?

  But yeah, you guys got any other questions? You want to know anything else?

• 7:49Mike Smith?

  I don't think so.

• 7:50Jeff Larson?

  I got a drain. I'm like draining stuff as we're recording this one. So.

• 7:56Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 7:56Jeff Larson?

  Listeners, if you want, maybe we just do a long bleep through all of this.

• 8:04Wes Larson?

  I, I mean, medically, I think it's interesting. I, I don't really have any other questions. I'm sure whatever we need to learn, we'll learn on your social media.

• 8:15Mike Smith?

  Yes. So you're actively, things are being drained from you right now as we speak is what you're trying to.

• 8:20Jeff Larson?

  I have a continuous funnel of drainage.

• 8:24Wes Larson?

  Wow. Okay.

• 8:25Jeff Larson?

  A hole. I have two holes in my rectum right now.

• 8:30Wes Larson?

  Yeah. In your rump. Huh.

• 8:32Jeff Larson?

  So kind of, that's kind of interesting.

• 8:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah, like a little vampire bitch in your butthole.

• 8:39Wes Larson?

  Alright, well.

• 8:42Wes Larson?

  We're happy you're with us. I'm sure we're gonna talk more about this throughout the episode.

• 8:46Jeff Larson?

  I think we're good. I don't think we need to.

• 8:50Wes Larson?

  Don't we have a whole ass-themed listener questions later?

• 8:53Jeff Larson?

  They're not about my ass, though.

• 8:56Wes Larson?

  Okay, I'm sure we're not gonna way to make it about your ass.

• 8:59Jeff Larson?

  Listen, I think people have had their fill of that talk.

• 9:02Wes Larson?

  Not us.

• 9:03Jeff Larson?

  That's disgusting.

• 9:04Wes Larson?

  Alright, well, as I mentioned earlier, we missed you on the sub-episode. This has been kind of an interesting journey on this one because originally Jeff was gonna prepare us a subscription episode this week, but then he had his ass pains, and so we kind of switched it up.

• 9:21Jeff Larson?

  Thanks for stepping up to the plate.

• 9:24Wes Larson?

  Happy to do it hard.

• 9:25Jeff Larson?

  And what big brothers are for, you know?

• 9:28Wes Larson?

  The one that I was preparing for the subscription episode, I really, it was like kind of a rabbit hole that I went down as I was preparing this main feed episode, and then I decided to switch them. So we gave our subscribers kind of the story about someone who had a terrible interaction with this animal, and we're gonna give our main feed kind of more of a subscriber-like episode, where we're gonna go down kind of a weird rabbit hole. It's a detective story. It's really interesting. And it's also kind of the story of a dad that's a bit of an asshole, in my opinion.

• 10:01Jeff Larson?

  Oh, no.

• 10:02Wes Larson?

  So, and it's about the Uruk-Hanji jellyfish.

• 10:06Jeff Larson?

  Uruk-Hanji?

• 10:07Wes Larson?

  Uruk-Hanji.

• 10:08Jeff Larson?

  Like from Lord of the Rings?

• 10:10Wes Larson?

  That's exactly what we said in the sub-episode, yes. Sounds a lot like Uruk-Hai. And for those of you who don't know this, and we talked about this before, "Uruk" is actually the Orc language word for "orc." So when you say "Uruk," you're just saying "orc" in Orcish, which is interesting.

• 10:27Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I think that's interesting.

• 10:30Wes Larson?

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• 11:14Wes Larson?

  And if you sleep hot, they use Glaciotex covers, copper infused foams, and temperature regulating materials to help keep you cool and comfortable all night long. Me and Jesse actually had a really, really nice mattress prior to this, and it was hard for me to give it up because I just didn't think that Brooklyn Bedding could possibly be better, and it is. I'm really happy, I'll never look back, I just love my mattress. So go to brooklinbedding.com, use our promo code TOOTH at checkout to get 30% off site wide during the Black Friday sale exclusively with our code. That's brooklinbedding.com and promo code TOOTH for 30% off site wide. Let them know that we sent you in the survey after checkout. Brooklinbedding.com promo code TOOTH.

• 11:59Mike Smith?

  This episode is brought to you by Beam. So, when we got first started on this podcast, I was just, I'm gonna reveal a little something about myself, I'm a serial procrastinator, and I knew right away, when I'm left to my own devices, I'm going to push it till the last possible moment to prepare, like, subscription episodes, for example. So, my sleep started taking a real hit right away, which is like, kinda saying something since I was working the night shift as we were like, I was already in a bad way. That's why I'm so excited to share something that's made a real difference in my life, Beam's Dream Powder. This is something that's, honestly, I use, I've been using it every night, they keep sending it to me, I'll keep using it, I really do believe in it.

• 12:40Mike Smith?

  Dream is a healthy nighttime blend packed with science-backed ingredients shown to improve sleep, so you can wake up refreshed and ready to take on the day, whether that's going to work or solving a cold case. I don't know, probably not a whole lot of

• 12:54Wes Larson?

  It's never solved.

• 12:57Mike Smith?

  That was just an example of it. So, Dream, it's made with a powerful blend of all natural ingredients, reishi, magnesium, L-theanine, apigenin.

• 13:08Mike Smith?

  And melatonin, all that stuff.

• 13:10Jeff Larson?

  Powder is like so soft. It's very surprisingly like soft powder. I like it.

• 13:15Mike Smith?

  Huh. It's, yeah. I sometimes just drink it right out of the bag. No liquid required. I don't do that.

• 13:24Mike Smith?

  And it turns out, I'm not the only one that Beam's been helping a lot. It's already improved over seventeen point five million nights of sleep. Uh, not just me, not just, that's a lot of other people contributing to that.

• 13:34Jeff Larson?

  I'm one of them.

• 13:35Mike Smith?

  Jeff, Wes. It's helping people across the country wake up and feel their best. So here's the deal. Beam is giving our listeners their best offer yet, up to forty percent off. Try their best selling dream powder and get up to forty percent off for a limited time. Go to shopbeam.com slash tooth and use code tooth at checkout. That's shop B E A M dot com slash tooth and use code tooth for up to forty percent off. Solve the case of your bad sleep by trying Beam today. All right. So we've done a couple of episodes. I think they've been subscriber episodes about Kings of Sting.

• 14:12Mike Smith?

  And I'm gonna nominate another King of Sting in this episode, and his name is Jack Barnes. This would be maybe the Australian King of Sting. And I think the reason I wanna nominate him.

• 14:25Jeff Larson?

  Throwing his hat in the ring.

• 14:26Mike Smith?

  And throwing his hat in the ring.

• 14:27Jeff Larson?

  King of Sting is not the person, though. It's the insect.

• 14:31Mike Smith?

  Oh, I always thought it was the person. Yeah.

• 14:33Jeff Larson?

  I did the episode. It was, what's the king of sting? And it was the executioner watch.

• 14:39Mike Smith?

  But they call that one guy that, the guy that made the chart, they call him the King of Sting. They don't. I don't know. I'm gonna let Jeff.

• 14:49Jeff Larson?

  The king of sting goes to the insect. Which insect is the king of sting?

• 14:53Mike Smith?

  All right. I will take your word for it.

• 14:56Jeff Larson?

  You better not be wrong, Jeff, though. I mean, I made the episode. I'm.

• 15:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't think that means.

• 15:03Jeff Larson?

  I'm the one who made the king of sting title for the insects. Like, I made it. It's not something you can look up.

• 15:09Wes Larson?

  Here's a New York Times headline. Justin Schmidt, entomologist known as King of Sting, dies at 75. Oh, my gosh. You've embarrassed me. All right. Anyway, I'm gonna nominate, since this is my episode, Jack Barnes as the Australian King of Sting. So it's Jack Barnes versus a bunch of insects. And the reason I think, yeah, the reason I think this, I would wager that he's, I mean, I just read the article.

• 15:36Jeff Larson?

  I don't care if someone named someone King of Sting. My episode was what insect is the king of sting?

• 15:43Wes Larson?

  Okay, yeah, for your episode, great. I'm saying for my episode, this guy I'm calling a king of sting. Because I think he stung himself with the craziest thing that I've ever heard of someone stinging themselves with. And it wasn't just himself that he stung, and that's the crazy wrinkle in this story, and we're gonna get to that. But in the early 1900s, in the waters of Northern Australia, there was a hidden menace that was lurking. Aboriginal people that had lived in this area for a very long time and swam in these coastal waters were aware of the risks, and they knew that a tiny unseen assassin could cause extreme pain or even death. But it took colonial Australians a while to figure out the danger.

• 16:27Wes Larson?

  So as early as 1922, people swimming and bathing, Northern Queensland especially, reported stings from some marine creatures and then a really particular set of extreme symptoms that followed. And those symptoms included severe headache, really severe backache and abdominal pains, muscle pains, chest pain, nausea, vomiting, sweating, anxiety, hypertension, which is like really high blood pressure, tachycardia and pulmonary edema. So. It's like Jeff's day to day, these past couple of weeks.

• 17:04Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it's like child's play, honestly.

• 17:09Wes Larson?

  So basically, these symptoms were so unique to these stings that they decided, you know, that this was like a specific phenomenon that was happening. It wasn't like this was a bunch of different animals that were causing this. They knew that one thing was causing this exact set of symptoms. And one of the craziest symptoms that came along with this particular syndrome was a sense of impending doom. So sting victims are so convinced that they're going to die because these symptoms are so intense and so painful that they often beg their doctors to kill them. So it's a really, really intense kind of sting.

• 17:47Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that's the doom one's an interesting one because I do believe that that's probably where most of it stems from, just like that overwhelming sense of pain. But I also think, I don't know if you've ever experienced an impending sense of doom. I did once when I I mixed a couple of medications that I shouldn't. And it like, it totally put me into this weird depressed funk where I felt doomed to forever feel that way. And it's something I just like, can't really articulate very well, but I think.

• 18:16Jeff Larson?

  Was the first time I smoked weed.

• 18:19Mike Smith?

  It's just so, no, but really, like, I don't doubt that because I think that doom sensation is very psychological more than just like a manifestation of physical pain, you know?

• 18:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah, and from what I've read, it's unclear with this particular animal, like whether or not that's actually something within the toxins of their venom that's causing that, or if it's just that the pain that the person is experiencing is at such a high level that they just are sure that they're going to die.

• 18:49Mike Smith?

  Sure.

• 18:49Wes Larson?

  Anyway, scientists and marine biologists in this area, they started getting wind of all these reports. And like many of the public, they suspected a jellyfish. Or as they're often called in Australia, a marine stinger. So in 1935.

• 19:04Jeff Larson?

  Jellybug.

• 19:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah, a jelly roo. Uh, yeah. In 1935, Hugo Flecker, who's a toxologist, radiologist, and a naturalist, was living in Cairns, or as they say in Australia, Cairns. And he took interest in the reports of both these painful stings and the deaths from marine creatures. And he started compiling all these different reports and finding some commonalities. So basically, they don't know what's causing this, but he's just trying to put all these reports together to figure out what might be happening. And he and this other doctor, Dr. Ronald Southcott, classified stings into two types. The type A, which includes all the symptoms that we just listed. So the syndrome where you have like intense abdominal

• 19:48Wes Larson?

  pain, back pain, a feeling of doom, nausea, all of that stuff. And then type B was a very different type of sting, where it's very immediate, often, not often, but sometimes would lead to death. So, type A, they called Urukhaanji Syndrome. And the reason they called that is there's a tribe of people, some Aboriginal people that lived in northern Australia, around the area where these stings had been happening. And so they wanted to name the syndrome after those people.

• 20:17Mike Smith?

  As like a show of respect? Or that's almost kind of like, okay.

• 20:22Wes Larson?

  I think so. Yeah, I don't think it was like, meant to be a negative thing. But I do really want to, I want to read quickly a snippet of how Hugo Flecker reported the symptoms of Urukhaanji Syndrome, because I think it's a little bit better than the clinical way that I just reported it. So he said, "The pain usually, but not invariably, starts suddenly. The victim receiving a local sensation, as though having been stung by a bee or a wasp. At other times, the pain at the side of the sting may be slight or insignificant, or altogether absent. While in some cases, the victim might be quite aware that he's been stung at all. However, the victim is able to reach the edge of the water, perhaps with difficulty, and then sinks on the beach, absolutely prostrated,

• 21:04Wes Larson?

  and has to be removed by friends or bystanders. By this time, intense backache, the most distressing symptom of all, starts, followed by pain in the stomach and aches all over, attending by retching and vomiting, necessitating the use of opiates. The patient is seriously ill for a day or two, ultimately recovers a few days later." So we talked about this a bit on the other episode and we talked about Dr. Lisa Gershwin, who described the back pain as an electric drill being bored into your back.

• 21:35Jeff Larson?

  Oof.

• 21:35Wes Larson?

  Just, there was another doctor, Jamie Seymour, who's been stung a number of times by this creature. And he said that on a scale of one to 10, it was a 14 and that if he could have killed himself, he would have. That's how bad the pain was.

• 21:49Jeff Larson?

  I mean, his skill just doesn't make any sense at that point.

• 21:53Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Pointless scale if it's not one to 10, but sure.

• 21:58Jeff Larson?

  I would say I was in 10 out of 10 pain for a solid four days last week.

• 22:03Wes Larson?

  With your ass. You give it a 10.

• 22:05Jeff Larson?

  I was pretty, I was as uncomfortable as I've ever been.

• 22:10Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I think, I mean, I'm not trying, I'm not saying that you weren't 10. Okay.

• 22:15Jeff Larson?

  You're saying like Cynthia Baker will be like, you.

• 22:19Wes Larson?

  Cynthia Dussel Baker.

• 22:21Jeff Larson?

  I'm always giving people like eights and stuff. So I should probably give myself an eight or seven.

• 22:27Wes Larson?

  Eight. I see. When we talked about this on the other episode, the people that are victims of this sting describe it as being held into a fire that they can't escape from. Like they have molten magma that's pulsing through their veins. And they're being stabbed by flaming hot swords. Like, it apparently is, seems to be kind of the worst pain that a human being can tolerate.

• 22:50Jeff Larson?

  I think my issue is I need to like find some comparisons to describe mine to a little better.

• 22:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Jeff Larson?

  Not a bar. I need to like think of, you know, it felt like there was a giant dog inside my ass.

• 23:06Wes Larson?

  Giant dog.

• 23:07Jeff Larson?

  Way out.

• 23:08Wes Larson?

  Yes. All right. Yeah. Maybe at the end of the episode, we can say who had it worse. Jeff's ass.

• 23:14Jeff Larson?

  Sorry. I said I wasn't gonna bring it up anymore. Here I am.

• 23:19Mike Smith?

  This episode is brought to you by Beam. For my whole life, I've had a really hard time falling asleep. I have to have the perfect room temperature, the perfect bedding, the perfect white noise. Everything just has to be perfect. But you know what's made it so much easier for me is Beam. Beam's Dream Powder is made with clean, natural ingredients like reishi, magnesium, L-theanine, apigenin, and melatonin, formulated to help you fall asleep fast, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. Try it and see why Dream by Beam has improved over 30 million nights of sleep for people across the country. And yeah, Beam does help me fall asleep easier, deeper, and better. But you know what's even nicer than that? Is drinking it in the first place. It's delicious. It's like a nice hot cup of cocoa right before you go to sleep.

• 24:04Mike Smith?

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• 24:39Jeff Larson?

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• 26:08Jeff Larson?

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• 26:24Wes Larson?

  All right, so we were talking about type A stings, which are this Uruk-Hanji syndrome. And then there's type B stings, which had similar characteristics, but were tended to be a little bit more extreme and could even lead to death. In 1955, a five-year-old boy was killed after being stung by a jellyfish in the waters near Cardwell, North Queensland. And Dr. Flecker went to the beach-

• 26:46Jeff Larson?

  Not the king of sting, that kid.

• 26:49Wes Larson?

  No, no, he, yeah, the prince. Maybe that jellyfish is, you know? Dr. Flecker went to the beach, collected whatever specimens he could find, and he ended up collecting three types of jellyfish. And one of those jellyfish had a distinct box-like shape with four tentacles, one coming out of each corner of the box. So he sent this specimen to a marine biologist, who determined it was a previously undescribed species of lethal box jellyfish. And this one was named Chironyx fleckery, after Dr. Flecker.

• 27:22Wes Larson?

  Today, that that species of jellyfish is known as the Australian box jellyfish. It's responsible for at least 64 deaths since the late 1800s. So this Flecker guy who had kind of tried to figure out what Uruk-Canji syndrome was, did discover this other species of box jellyfish. But then he died. He died two years later and he kind of never solved this big mystery of what the Uruk-Canji syndrome, why it was happening.

• 27:50Mike Smith?

  Wasn't Abraham Lincoln, he kind of died around the mid to late 18th, 1800s, right?

• 27:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but that's not when this guy died.

• 27:58Jeff Larson?

  He got stung in the back of the head.

• 28:00Wes Larson?

  That's what I'm thinking. Some chucked a box jellyfish at him.

• 28:04Mike Smith?

  John Wilkes Booth.

• 28:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't think every death from the mid to late 1800s was responsible.

• 28:10Mike Smith?

  How many did you say? 69?

• 28:12Wes Larson?

  64 deaths in Australia since the late 1800s.

• 28:16Mike Smith?

  64 is a good number too, though. Not quite as.

• 28:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, Nintendo 64, right? It's a great, it's a great system.

• 28:22Mike Smith?

  You ever played that?

• 28:23Wes Larson?

  Alright.

• 28:24Mike Smith?

  Goldeneye?

• 28:25Wes Larson?

  It's probably the system I've played the most.

• 28:27Mike Smith?

  No.

• 28:28Wes Larson?

  64?

• 28:29Mike Smith?

  There's no way.

• 28:30Wes Larson?

  No. It's not even close. Yeah. It's an even number. Yeah.

• 28:36Jeff Larson?

  Prime numbers are even.

• 28:37Wes Larson?

  No.

• 28:38Jeff Larson?

  32 is prime number.

• 28:40Mike Smith?

  32?

• 28:41Wes Larson?

  No.

• 28:41Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it's divisible by 6. 6, 6, 6 times 6 equals 62.

• 28:46Mike Smith?

  No, that's, none of that's true, or you're going down so many wrong alleys here. A prime number is.

• 28:55Mike Smith?

  It's not things that can be divided by, I don't think we.

• 28:59Wes Larson?

  Prime means that it can't be divided by anything but it's, but one.

• 29:03Jeff Larson?

  Oh, you guys are right. You guys are right. You guys are right.

• 29:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 29:09Mike Smith?

  Alright, uh, this is a stellar three minutes of podcasting there.

• 29:15Wes Larson?

  That'll be our social media clip, right there. All right. Hugo Flecker died a couple of years later, and that's where Jack Barnes comes in. Jack Barnes was born in 1922, which is a really tumultuous time for Australia, like a lot of the world. He was raised in a rural setting.

• 29:30Mike Smith?

  Hold on, I want to talk about Abraham Lincoln some more. So you know that scene in Attack, no, what is it? The Clone Wars, the second prequel Star Wars movie? When the assassin hires a different assassin to carry out his assassination?

• 29:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Mike Smith?

  And you've been talking about-

• 29:45Jeff Larson?

  And, hold on.

• 29:47Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 29:47Jeff Larson?

  That assassin uses worms.

• 29:50Mike Smith?

  Worms, right. I think you see where I'm going with this. You've been talking about how these little box jellies are like very stealth assassins, like very... I'm just saying, maybe John Wilkes Booth could have come up with a better plan than just shooting Abraham Lincoln in the back of the head. He could have employed some, some box jelly.

• 30:07Jeff Larson?

  Jellyfish got Lincoln into scuba.

• 30:12Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Really playing the long game.

• 30:17Mike Smith?

  I think Jacques Cousteau invented scuba diving in like the 17th, 17th century? Something like that.

• 30:23Wes Larson?

  Jacques Cousteau, 17th century. All right. We're off the rails. Okay. So this guy, Jack Barnes-

• 30:30Jeff Larson?

  Hold on.

• 30:31Wes Larson?

  No, we're not, I'm not holding on again. All right. He's raised in a rural setting. He was interested in medical studies at a young age. However, in 1942, he took a break from studying medicine to join the Australian military in World War II and fight on the island of Timor against the Japanese. He returned to medicine following the war, and he became superintendent of a small hospital on Thursday Island from 1947 to 1953. And then in 1953, he arrived in Cairns, or Cairns, in northeast Queensland, where he set up a private practice in 1958. Okay. In 58, following the death of Flecker, the British Medical Association talked to Barnes, and they said,

• 31:15Wes Larson?

  you know, he had always, always had this really keen interest in marine life. And they said, "We want you to continue Flecker's research and discover what kind of creature was responsible for Ura Kanji Syndrome." People knew Barnes during this time, and they described him as irritable and belligerent, demanding and critical, unsociable and rude.

• 31:35Jeff Larson?

  I know someone like that.

• 31:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Under that graphic exterior, a kindly and compassionate associate.

• 31:43Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, kinda.

• 31:45Wes Larson?

  I don't.

• 31:45Jeff Larson?

  More the first half.

• 31:47Wes Larson?

  I think Mike's more the first half, but then it comes out the second half sometimes. Or, sorry, he's more the second half and the first half comes out. Whatever. Personally. Not for me to judge. This is like, maybe a judgment thing too. I've kind of described, I've decided that when everyone's described as like, really nice, deep down, you're just an asshole if people describe you that way. You're not a nice person. Like, that's not what being nice is. Right. So. It's the opposite, in fact. I'll die on that hill, yeah.

• 32:16Jeff Larson?

  I might push back a little bit.

• 32:18Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you know?

• 32:19Jeff Larson?

  Like Harrison Ford, I feel like he's kind of a dick, but if you got to know, like, if you're in his inner circle, he's the best.

• 32:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but see, that's, that's my whole point. Like, I think a truly nice, kind person, you don't have to be in their inner circle for them to be nice to you.

• 32:34Jeff Larson?

  I think that's a little fake, though.

• 32:36Wes Larson?

  I think you can be a cool person and like, still be a dick, but like, I think if you're nice and kind, then you're nice and kind.

• 32:43Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Jeff Larson?

  Who's to say who's right, you know?

• 32:46Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's just my, I'm gonna die on that hill, is what I said.

• 32:49Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Wes Larson?

  All right. A lot of the detectives, though, a lot of the best detectives throughout history have been described as kind of unsociable, prickly, people that like, aren't very easy to connect with. And I do think Barnes was a really good detective. He produced this paper called Cause and Effect in Ura Kanji Stingings, and it kind of reads like a mystery novel. I really liked reading this paper. Goes through the different clues that he used to figure out the culprit behind these stingings. And I want to shout out SciHub really quick, which is S C I Hub. It's a place where you can paste the DOI of any journal article and access it for free. So it's kind of like a pirating site for scientific journals, and it works really well, and it's how I access almost all of them.

• 33:35Jeff Larson?

  The scientific papers, like, you've written some, so I'm asking you more. The people who wrote the paper don't get the money, right?

• 33:42Wes Larson?

  No, you have to pay money. Yeah.

• 33:45Jeff Larson?

  No, but I'm saying like, or who has to pay money?

• 33:49Wes Larson?

  I had, like, my last paper, we had to pay like, $7,000 to have it published.

• 33:53Jeff Larson?

  So like, you would encourage people to get it for free?

• 33:55Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:56Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Wes Larson?

  Access them for free. Go for it.

• 33:59Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Wes Larson?

  So let's dive into this detective work a little bit. The first thing that Barnes did was rule out some of the usual suspects. So he thought it was maybe possible that Urukhaunji syndrome might just be an allergic reaction to something like a Portuguese man of war sting, or even the Australian box jelly. But after he read through the work of Flecker and some of these other predecessors, he realized there's no way this was an allergic reaction. This was its own thing. So one of the first things he did was collect all of the reports of these type A stings, like the Urukhaunji syndrome stings. And one of the first patterns that jumped out was that almost all the stings occurred between November and January during the Australian summer. And often the stings occurred in bursts.

• 34:45Wes Larson?

  So there would suddenly be a lot of reports in a matter of days and then it would go quiet again. So what would, if you guys are a detective and you're trying to figure out what that means, what would you think if suddenly a bunch of people are getting stung and then all of a sudden no one is?

• 34:59Jeff Larson?

  Uh, maybe it's like a seasonal animal type of thing?

• 35:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Something is bringing large groups of this animal into shore and then suddenly it's gone.

• 35:10Jeff Larson?

  Right.

• 35:11Wes Larson?

  Okay. Even more interestingly, he found that 85% of the recorded stings that led to Urukhaunji syndrome came from two places, Palm Cove and Ellis Beach. These were very popular beaches north of Cairns, but the percentage of stings there couldn't be explained away by just their popularity. There had to be something else that was going on. So he studied these two beaches and their specific geography and realized that there was really interesting currents during the winter months that caused open ocean water to be pushed southward onto these beaches. So typically these beaches would have this kind of murky coastal water, but during the

• 35:50Wes Larson?

  summer, this open ocean cleaner pelagic water would get blown in and with it, a bunch of the pelagic creatures that lived in that water. And with marine ecology, when you have meetings of like two types of water like that, there's often a lot of biology happening there. They're kind of biological hotspots.

• 36:11Wes Larson?

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• 36:53Wes Larson?

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• 37:37Wes Larson?

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  Eating that Ollie.

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• 39:40Wes Larson?

  So Barnes studies these two beaches. Their specific geography and he realizes that the currents were likely bringing this unknown assassin close to shore. It's kind of like if John Wilkes Booth were just using two currents to get close to Lincoln to assassinate.

• 39:56Mike Smith?

  That's what I'm saying, dude.

• 39:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 39:59Wes Larson?

  Anyway.

• 40:01Jeff Larson?

  I think he did a good job. Honestly, I think we're giving John Wilkes Booth too much crap here. He's the one holding wants to ever pull it off.

• 40:10Wes Larson?

  He escaped for a while too, and he used probably like the loudest gun that's ever been.

• 40:14Mike Smith?

  Yeah, no, that guy was, he jumped off and like broke his ankle. If he would have just employed a jellyfish.

• 40:20Jeff Larson?

  Mission accomplished though.

• 40:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 40:23Mike Smith?

  All right.

• 40:24Wes Larson?

  The first thing that Barnes decided to do was use fine mesh nets to try and just simply collect some of these specimens during periods of high currents. But what he quickly found out was that as these jellyfish were being pushed closer to shore, so was a lot of other stuff. So his nets within minutes would be completely clogged with different organic material and marine life. And there'd be so much that it was impossible to sort through it and try and figure out what might be this mystery jellyfish. So they decided not to do that anymore. And what they decided then they would do is just kind of walk the shore and look for jellyfish that might have been washed up on shore and inspect those and see if they might be the ones.

• 41:07Wes Larson?

  But they weren't really finding anything that had the right hardware to cause these kind of stings. Another really confounding thing for Barnes was that none of the swimmers that had been stung had seen the jellyfish that stung them. And the ones that could remember anything at all said that they had felt like an extremely light touch that was very transient in nature, like something just kind of whisked over them and just barely touched them. And all of this information might lead to a lot of confusion for a normal person, but for a good detective like Barnes, it helped him kind of clarify what he might be looking for. And he laid out some clues and I'm going to read them through really quick.

• 41:50Wes Larson?

  First, he knew that the jellyfish wasn't microscopic because people had felt it make contact with them. Second, it did have to be quite small because there were reports of people being stung when tiny wavelets washed over their exposed skin. So it meant that it was small and that it probably traveled on the surface. Third, it was probably transparent and colorless because people never saw it. And when they searched the water, they couldn't find it. Fourth, it probably showed up in large numbers because lots of stings occurred kind of simultaneously. Fifth, it was probably mobile. Jellyfish that kind of just floated on top of the water would get washed up on the sand. But if a jellyfish was mobile, it could actively avoid that.

• 42:35Wes Larson?

  So he thinks that it was probably mobile, which is a box jelly. Box jellies, we know, are mobile. They can actually propel themselves through the water, unlike the other jellyfish. So now a new search began and Barnes let everyone know that they were looking for a small, but not microscopic, transparent and mobile jellyfish. And that they'd focus their search around Palm and Ellis beaches. And Barnes would personally do close to a hundred hours, sitting like a couple of feet below the surface with a modified snorkel. And the reason he'd do that is because if you look down in the water for jellyfish, you don't really see anything. But if you're looking against the sun, you can see a lot of stuff like suspended in the water. So he would just like for dozens of hours at a time, just sit on the ocean floor and

• 43:20Wes Larson?

  stare up at the sun and like look for something that matches all these different qualifications that he had.

• 43:26Mike Smith?

  Hmm.

• 43:27Wes Larson?

  He also spent a lot of time in pantyhose because the pantyhose are enough of a covering to stop the a jellyfish from stinging.

• 43:35Mike Smith?

  Really?

• 43:36Wes Larson?

  Really? Yeah. The, the thing about their nematocysts, their, their stinging cells is they like kind of inherently know when they're making contact with organic material. And so if they brush against something that's non-organic, like seaweed or whatever else, they won't sting. And the pantyhose is like just enough to stop them from stinging.

• 43:55Jeff Larson?

  He could have used like light pants or like a wet suit.

• 44:00Wes Larson?

  He just wanted horse and pantyhose.

• 44:01Jeff Larson?

  But yeah, I mean, you know, whatever.

• 44:04Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Mike Smith?

  Don't get many opportunities to, not that you need an excuse.

• 44:08Jeff Larson?

  If he gets like creative and starts getting like the fishnet ones or like ones with holes in them, then he's in trouble again.

• 44:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's bad.

• 44:15Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Wes Larson?

  All right. So we're going to get to where this gets a little bit more interesting and his big discovery.

• 44:20Mike Smith?

  Oh, good.

• 44:21Wes Larson?

  In early December, 1961, there were a spate of stings in the area that Barnes had been operating in, and he and his team went to the water. And he told people to be looking at the top of the water and for any transparent organism that might be moving against the general flow of water. And after a bit of searching, they did finally capture a tiny, mobile, transparent, box-shaped Medusa jellyfish. And Barnes wasn't even able to see it until he actually put it on the glass of his mask.

• 44:50Jeff Larson?

  Oh, wow.

• 44:51Wes Larson?

  And then he could see it. Yeah. So he found a glass container. They could get a better look at its overall shape. And after observing it for a bit, some of his helpers went back into the water. Not long after, they saw a fish that was moving really erratically through the water, and they noticed that it had a tiny jellyfish attached to it. So they actually caught that one as well and brought that one up too. So he had two specimens, and he thought that these might be the jellyfish that were responsible for Urukhaanji syndrome. And remember, this is a search now for like, they're going on like 40 years that they've been looking for this animal. And it's the first time that any of them have ever laid eyes on it. And although it fit all of his clues, the only way to be sure that this

• 45:33Wes Larson?

  was the jellyfish that was causing Urukhaanji syndrome was to let it sting someone. And that's where the story takes a crazy turn. So Barnes is standing there. He's got these two jellyfish. He's determined to put this medical mystery to rest, then and there. And he decided that he would sting himself with the jellyfish. And then he drafted two other subjects to be stung. So one of the subjects that he drafted to be stung,

• 45:58Jeff Larson?

  Geez.

• 45:59Wes Larson?

  makes a lot of sense to me. It's this like really kind of strong, robust lifeguard named Charles Chilla Ross. His nickname was Chilla. And the other subject that he drafted-

• 46:10Jeff Larson?

  Why does that make a lot of sense to you?

• 46:12Wes Larson?

  Because like, if someone's gonna get stung, it's gonna be a kind of like brave lifeguard that's like, yes, I will, I'll do this. You know, it just kind of seems like-

• 46:20Jeff Larson?

  I mean, I think women could get stung too.

• 46:22Wes Larson?

  I'm not saying that, but I'm saying in 1960s Australia, the person that would probably volunteer would be this kind of man.

• 46:30Jeff Larson?

  Nah, I get what you're saying. I'm just being-

• 46:33Wes Larson?

  The last person though, the second person that he drafted is the reason that I picked this whole story and wanted to do it. It was his nine-year-old son, Nick.

• 46:43Jeff Larson?

  Oh my gosh.

• 46:44Mike Smith?

  That makes a lot more sense to me.

• 46:48Wes Larson?

  And this is crazy to me because it's not like they don't know what this sting does.

• 46:54Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, they've like seen people get really messed up.

• 46:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah, and he is the expert on it at this point. Like, he has read lots of accounts of people pleading for death because the pain from this sting is so bad. And he's like, you know who we should sting? My nine year old son.

• 47:12Jeff Larson?

  I I'll retract my kind of pushback of him not being a complete jerk.

• 47:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly. All right. So he decides to go through with this. And in his paper, he refers to these three subjects, himself as JB, Jack Barnes, his son is NB, Nick Barnes, and the lifeguard as CB, or CR, sorry, Chilla Ross. And he reports on the stings in the paper, and it's done in a very clinical way. And I'm going to do my best to kind of interpret some of that coldness into like what they were actually experiencing. But we're going to get into the the report of these three stings right now. So the first thing that he did is he splashed water on the inside of the upper arm of both himself and then the other two subjects. And he held the jellyfish there

• 48:00Wes Larson?

  until they said the sting was uncomfortably sharp. This took three seconds for his son, four seconds for himself, and 10 seconds for the lifeguard. The first symptom that all three of them reported was a painful stinging sensation, but not much more than a bee sting. But then things got a lot worse.

• 48:17Jeff Larson?

  Did they have three separate jellyfish or just the one?

• 48:20Wes Larson?

  No, they had two. And I think he used, he used one of them for him and his son, and then he used the other one for the lifeguard. So his son Nick was the first to report mild abdominal pain. And then he said both of his armpits were aching. He then said that his stomach pain was getting much worse. And then he was starting to have severe back pain as well. And then within 20 minutes, both of the adults had armpit pain, which was closely followed by back pain and discomfort around their ribs. Within 30 minutes, all of them had severe stomach pain, severe lower back pain, which again, has been described as a power drill boring into your lower back. This is not just like the aches that you get up.

• 49:05Wes Larson?

  You know, when you get up from bed, you have like a little bit of lower back pain. From everything I've read, this is the most intense lower back pain that you can experience.

• 49:13Mike Smith?

  Oh, the kid, Nick.

• 49:15Wes Larson?

  I know.

• 49:16Mike Smith?

  Do you this is. I yeah, I can't believe that this is a real thing that happened.

• 49:22Wes Larson?

  So at this point, Barnes must know, okay, we got it right. You know, like this is your Rakanji jellyfish. This is a Rakanji syndrome. But he also had to have known what's still left in store for him and for his son. So I doubt he was like celebrating that much, but he had to know, okay, we solved the mystery. All right, so now I'm going to read directly from his report. More of what they experienced. As systemic effects became manifest, subjects were seized with a remarkable restlessness and were in constant movement, stamping about aimlessly, swinging their arms, flexing and extending their bodies and generally twisting and writhing. And it's funny that like he says subjects, but this is him too. Like he is also doing all of this.

• 50:07Wes Larson?

  As the pains increased, initiative was notably depressed and brain function, though accurate, was decidedly sluggish. Answers came slowly and despite obvious discomfort, there seemed to be no urge to obtain treatment. The sufferers had no clear idea of the whereabouts of their belongings and had difficulty in handling heavy items. Which I'm like, is someone just trying to hand them heavy items to like?

• 50:31Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Wes Larson?

  Figure out.

• 50:33Jeff Larson?

  Well, you obviously don't go to the gym.

• 50:36Wes Larson?

  That's true. I do go.

• 50:38Jeff Larson?

  When you go to the gym, you just lift up heavy stuff all the time.

• 50:41Wes Larson?

  Everything you can see, you're trying to bench for us.

• 50:44Jeff Larson?

  It's a real problem if you're a gym nut like me.

• 50:48Wes Larson?

  There appeared to be a genuine, though not marked loss of power, coupled with general clumsiness. And this clumsiness seemed not so much due to weakness as difficulty in concentrating. Touching of painful areas now including arms and legs showed muscle groups in tonic contraction short of spasm. So that pretty much just means their muscles are like firing and twitching and spasming, but like not a full on epileptic or like a fit yet. Their muscles are going crazy. This possibly, this is my favorite part. This possibly explains the peculiar postures noted for extremes of flexion and extension were avoided. And the volunteers adopted a stance which I can best liken to that of an infant with a full nappy.

• 51:32Wes Larson?

  So a nappy is a diaper and he's saying that like they were bending their bodies in a way to like not experience pain that it looked like they were babies with full diapers.

• 51:45Wes Larson?

  Huh? Yeah. So at this point, Barnes realizes we're going to need medical attention. We shouldn't just be here on the beach for this. So he puts his son Nick in the backseat of his Dodge. The lifeguard hops in the passenger seat and then he drives them 20 minutes back to Cairns. And this is what happens during that drive. During the 20 minutes drive to Cairns, the victims were all in considerable distress, heightened it seemed by the necessity to remain seated. All had abdominal and back pain, pain in the anterior chest wall, with some difficulty in breathing and aches in muscles and joints. All had headache and distinctly dry mouth.

• 52:24Wes Larson?

  CR noticed that his eyes were burning and JB himself felt itchy and complained of sharp, prickling sensations in the skin. Nick felt very cold and was shivering violently. So son is like, starting to get the chills and shivering.

• 52:41Jeff Larson?

  So miserable. As someone I like, having been on that airplane with my abscess, I mean, just having to sit in a seat is just the worst. It's the worst. It's so bad. Like, you need to be able to like lay down and move and I don't know.

• 53:01Speaker 03

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• 53:31Wes Larson?

  Tooth and Claws brought to you by Element. And it's no secret that we really love Element here on this podcast. We just got back from India where we went through some pretty intense changes in climate, in just what we were dealing with, really high elevation, really hot, humid weather. And throughout that entire experience, Element was a constant companion for us. And so much so that all of our guests were constantly asking us if we could spare some Element. Our guides, dude. Yeah. I ran out. I thought I brought enough. Me too. And I think for us, seeing it work that well in an environment that when you're in the high Himalayas and it's really cold, you don't necessarily want to drink a lot, but

• 54:13Wes Larson?

  you do want to stay hydrated. And Element was the perfect fit for that. And it's also a really tasty fit for it. I think everyone enjoys when they're trying to stay hydrated, drinking something that also tastes really good. And so for me, it was the perfect test for it. And I think it passed it with flying colors. And if you don't know what Element is, it's a science-backed, zero sugar electrolyte drink mix that's designed to support active hydration and a healthy lifestyle. And when I say science-backed, I mean that the people that put this together were scientists. They researched what electrolytes were important. They researched the amounts that we needed of each of them, and they put it into a really easy to use packet that also tastes great. So Element

• 54:55Wes Larson?

  came up with a fantastic offer just for us. Get your free sample pack with any Element purchase at drinkelement.com/tooth. Be sure to try the new Element sparkling, which is a bold 16 ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. So go to drink, D R I N K L M N T dot com slash tooth. Thank you, Element, for sponsoring this episode. So he goes on now, they start coughing crazy, they start vomiting, a lot of their muscles start cramping up and aching. He says like maximum discomfort at this point. They felt that the troubles were centered around their chest. And what was happening is they're getting these waves of pain. It would get really, really

• 55:38Wes Larson?

  bad. And then it would kind of like go down a little bit, and then it would get bad again. And each time it would ratchet up, it would get worse and worse with each of these waves. And they would kind of try to do everything they could to stop it and nothing was helping. And they say the urge to writhe was compulsive and well indulged. So they're writhing around as they're like trying to get rid of this pain.

• 56:02Jeff Larson?

  If you're like driving past them, you're probably like, what are they listening to?

• 56:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, seriously. He says 40 minutes after the stinging, the abdominal musculature of the three subjects was an unrelenting spasm. So rigid as to weren't fully the term board like. So their stomachs were spasming so much that it felt like a board. So I guess if you want to get washboard abs, you know, go out and sting yourself with one of these things.

• 56:29Mike Smith?

  People would do that too.

• 56:30Wes Larson?

  And it got so-

• 56:31Jeff Larson?

  I wonder what the lifeguard's abs felt like, because he already had it.

• 56:35Wes Larson?

  Right, he already has rock hard abs, yeah.

• 56:38Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, they probably felt like diamond.

• 56:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah, anyway, it just keeps getting worse and worse. The lifeguard starts throwing up uncontrollably to where he's just covered in his own vomit. Yeah, it just, it says CR coughed and vomited simultaneously and almost continuously. JB coughed violently and frequently vomited intermittently. And Nick vomited only after drinking water. So Nick luckily got spared the vomiting. He says this is where they reached the peak of their misery. And it just kept getting worse and worse and worse. And finally, they got some opioids and they took these opioids. And for most of them, it immediately had an effect. And me and Mike talked about this in the other episode a bit.

• 57:24Wes Larson?

  For some people, now they treat them with fentanyl or some other opioids. It really, really helps with these symptoms. For others, it does like hardly anything.

• 57:34Jeff Larson?

  That's kind of the case with opioids in general, I feel like.

• 57:37Wes Larson?

  Totally.

• 57:38Jeff Larson?

  Like Mike, opioids don't really do much for you, right?

• 57:40Mike Smith?

  They just make me throw up, nothing really more than that. It sucks, I wish they did work, but.

• 57:46Jeff Larson?

  After like my first major surgery, my ankle one, I also had like a lot of anxiety. And that first opioid I ever took, I think it was a lord tab. It's like the best I've ever felt in my entire life because it got rid of my pain. It got rid of my anxiety. I was just like on cloud nine.

• 58:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And, and so what happens with these people and, and this happened with our other victim in the other episode is that the pain kind of fights the painkiller and then suddenly the painkiller will like take over and they feel really good and warm and happy. And then all of a sudden the pain comes back and there's kind of this like push and pull.

• 58:23Jeff Larson?

  But that's why you gotta just take more opioids.

• 58:26Wes Larson?

  And that a lot of these people, they give them like the maximum amount of morphine and then they're like, we literally can't give you anymore or else you're gonna die. And the people beg for it.

• 58:36Jeff Larson?

  I'm just kidding. Painkillers are very dangerous. Don't, don't take more.

• 58:41Wes Larson?

  A crazy thing though is after like their pain kind of subsided, they started having this really crazy intense prickling sensation that was painful as well. And they felt it in their joints and subcutaneous tissues, scalp, finger, face, penis and rectum. So they're kind of just feeling this crazy tickling everywhere, which you know, um, take that for what you will.

• 59:06Mike Smith?

  You think erection might have happened a little somewhere along the way?

• 59:12Wes Larson?

  So they go through this crazy like hellish experience. I don't. And it lasts about 24 hours where they're having to kind of dose themselves and do whatever they can to treat these symptoms.

• 59:26Jeff Larson?

  They're not like staying in the hospital?

• 59:28Wes Larson?

  No, I think they were being treated by one of his friends who was also like a medical professional. But they pretty much after about 24 hours, there was no symptoms left. They were all feeling okay. And he even made his son go to school the next day, which is kind of crazy. Yeah. All right. So they've found their jellyfish. They named it Caruchia barnesi after Barnes. And today it's widely known as the Urukhaanji jellyfish. There are like 16 species of Urukhaanji jellyfish. This is one of the most famous. This is one of the ones that often comes ashore in northern Australia in large numbers. And Barnes would actually go on to contribute a lot more to the field of box jellyfish studies.

• 1:00:12Wes Larson?

  He would die in 1985 of a heart attack. Before we finish up with this story, there's one more really interesting thing, a tidbit from his paper that I wanted to bring up, and I think it really highlights something that we've talked about multiple times on this podcast, which is the value in consulting indigenous voices when you're studying wildlife. Because basically, after Barnes had discovered this jellyfish, he heard a story from a soldier that happened all the way back in 1944. And the soldier was stationed on an island that made up part of Papua New Guinea. And one night, another soldier was brought to him with extreme stomach and back pain, so bad that he thought his appendix had burst.

• 1:00:53Wes Larson?

  And he didn't think this guy was going to survive a bumpy ride to the nearest hospital. So he dosed him up with morphine and his symptoms went away. And a few days later, another soldier had the same symptoms. But this time, when he was brought in, one of this guy's servants, who was Papuaan, said, hey, I think I know what's going on here. Let me go get our witch doctor from the local village, who was like a medicine man. And he brought this witch doctor to his house. This is what Barnes reported it as. And this is what happened next from the paper. The witch doctor, upon arrival, checked the legs of the patient and pointed out a small lesion. The patient recalled having been stung while swimming an hour earlier. The witch doctor then went into the jungle, procured some leaves, which he chewed up for a poultice,

• 1:01:38Wes Larson?

  applied this to the lesion, and complete recovery occurred in about 20 to 30 minutes. Wow.

• 1:01:44Mike Smith?

  Whoa.

• 1:01:45Wes Larson?

  The witch doctor then sent one of the village divers down-

• 1:01:48Jeff Larson?

  That guy got lucky.

• 1:01:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Jeff Larson?

  The doctor, he just guessed those leaves, you know?

• 1:01:55Wes Larson?

  He then sent one of the village divers down to the coral lagoon to bring what they considered the causative agent. This was a small, three centimeters wide, almost colorless jellyfish. So this witch doctor, and like, I don't know if that's the right terminology these days, but that's what Barnes said. He knew exactly what it was. He knew the jellyfish responsible. One of his villagers found it immediately and they even had a treatment for the sting. And this was all the way back in 1944. So had someone just gone.

• 1:02:27Jeff Larson?

  That guy.

• 1:02:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Had someone just gone to this tribe and said, hey, do you guys know what causes this? They probably would have had an immediate answer.

• 1:02:35Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Wes Larson?

  So that just goes to show, always talk to the people that know and care for that land best. And often that's indigenous peoples.

• 1:02:44Jeff Larson?

  So are these urukhai jellyfish, urukandi jellyfish? Are they still like a real problem for people in Australia?

• 1:02:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And we talked about that a bit on the other episode, but they think it they cause up to $3 billion in losses for the Australian government each year in tourism losses and medical expenses. They are a problem. They have whole beaches that they have to shut down.

• 1:03:08Jeff Larson?

  Put signs up now though, when the currents are coming in and stuff.

• 1:03:11Wes Larson?

  They do. And like, you'll remember Jeff, when we went to the Great Barrier Reef, we had to wear stinger suits when we went out swimming around. It's because of this jellyfish mostly that they make you wear those. Yeah. They are a constant threat. There's like up to 250 to 300 people is one report in Queensland every year that are hospitalized from urukandi stings. There's been two deaths. They both occurred, I believe in 2002 and they both involved, one was a British man and one was an American man. And they both had underlying health conditions to where the blood pressure increase from this sting killed them. So it does.

• 1:03:50Jeff Larson?

  For a second, I thought you were gonna say that soldier would, is gonna die because he's gonna take his appendix out.

• 1:03:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Jeff Larson?

  Like the guy just opened him up.

• 1:03:59Wes Larson?

  Just cuts him open immediately. All right. You guys have any questions before we get to our categories?

• 1:04:05Jeff Larson?

  I just wanna say, you know, I got a lot of stuff going on with me right now and maybe a little irritable or just like argumentable, but I'm fine with you calling people king of sting. I think I've called people king of sting before. So I don't know what I was on about with that, but I'll take it back.

• 1:04:26Wes Larson?

  I'm sorry too. I wasn't trying to be.

• 1:04:28Jeff Larson?

  I think the insects and animals are the ultimate kings of sting still, but I think, you know, it's a fun title. So you can give it to you. You can put this person in there.

• 1:04:38Wes Larson?

  Jack Barnes is in there and his son, I think should be probably in there too.

• 1:04:42Jeff Larson?

  Sure. And the witch doctor.

• 1:04:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Okay. So we're going to get to our categories. I do just want to emphasize again, if you want to learn more about this animal, if you want to hear me and Mike talk about someone more recently who was stung by one and all the stuff that happened to him, check out our recent subscriber episode. It's a really fun one and there's a lot more information there. Okay.

• 1:05:06Jeff Larson?

  Bet it was really fun.

• 1:05:07Wes Larson?

  Oh, man, it just was like, yeah.

• 1:05:10Jeff Larson?

  Like a weight was lifted off. You're able to get through your story.

• 1:05:15Wes Larson?

  Didn't get interrupted once.

• 1:05:19Wes Larson?

  All right. First category, what's the meanest thing your dad has ever done to you? Me and Jeff got the same.

• 1:05:25Jeff Larson?

  The one I think of was just at Lake Powell once dad put on like a latex glove, but he like shoved it on his hand and pushed his hand all the way through and broke the glove open at the end. And then he goes, Jeff, that's how you were born and made me think for like six years that was an accident. Like I asked him, like, are you being serious? And he's like, yeah. And I guess I wasn't an accident. So it's more funny than mean, but it's a little mean.

• 1:05:54Wes Larson?

  It is pretty funny.

• 1:05:57Wes Larson?

  I've never thought of like, when people claim it's an accident, that's never really been like a broken condom. It's like, not a negative thing for me. It's like accidents happen all the time.

• 1:06:07Jeff Larson?

  It's not that big a deal if you're an accident.

• 1:06:10Wes Larson?

  Mine also involves our dad because that was the prompt. And I can't remember if I've told this story on the podcast yet, but I think I probably have, but I'm going to retell it because I don't, it is probably the meanest thing my dad's ever done. I was plagued by nightmares as a kid. I like, things really scared me. I would have a really hard time sleeping if I just saw like a trailer for Gremlins or, you know, the Dracula trailer, the Francis Ford Coppola Dracula trailer, just stupid little things would really get in my head. In fact, me and Jeff shared a room for a little while while he was a baby and I read this horror novel about a baby vampire. And for a while I like, did not trust Jeff one bit. I was terrified of you.

• 1:06:55Wes Larson?

  But I was really into reading these little horror booklets and one of them, I can't remember if it was the scary stories to tell in the dark or what it was. But there was a story of this girl who a vampire would come to her window and kind of like scratch on the window at night. And that night, like the night after I read this story, it was windy. There was stuff hitting my window. And I got so scared, like probably the most scared I've ever been as a kid, that I went up and knocked on my parents' door. And went in and complained and said, I think there's a vampire outside my window. And I, my, my parents were like, no, no, no. And then my dad was like, actually, I recently killed all the vampires in this area. So you're okay. And I was like, wait, what? Like vampires are real?

• 1:07:41Wes Larson?

  And he's like, yeah, but I got them all. And then I was like, okay. And so I started walking out of their room and he goes, or at least I think I got them all.

• 1:07:49Mike Smith?

  Okay, well that.

• 1:07:53Wes Larson?

  And it not only made it seem like vampires were real to me, which I wanted them to tell me they weren't. But I was terrified that he hadn't actually got all of them. So it was pretty mean, but also very funny in retrospect.

• 1:08:05Mike Smith?

  I can't think of, so there are two things that come to mind and my dad denies that either of one of, the other one of these things was deliberately done by him. But once he kicked a red anthill all over my legs when I was little and we were living in Georgia.

• 1:08:18Wes Larson?

  You mentioned that once.

• 1:08:20Mike Smith?

  And he's denied it. I brought, it was like, he, he's pretty much gaslit me into believing maybe it actually didn't happen and I'm making it up. But I swear, it was so painful and terrible. And he was standing there. I was standing right there and he just kicked it all over my legs. It was crazy.

• 1:08:37Wes Larson?

  He just had like an intrusive thought, yeah.

• 1:08:39Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Uh, and then the other one, this one really did happen. I'll never be able to be convinced otherwise, but. Uh, I would fall asleep and then he would turn the heater, like the, you know, how sometimes cars have like the, the seat heaters? He'd always turn it all the way up whenever I fell asleep in the seat and I just wake up in like a puddle of sweat. And that's like, kind of mean. It's like, not, not the most mean thing that's ever been done to me, but it's like, come on, man. This sucks. I don't want this.

• 1:09:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Mike Smith?

  I don't want that to happen.

• 1:09:08Wes Larson?

  My dad does something similarly, just kind of jerkish. Where they have a bathroom where the on their upstairs floor where the toilets like really close to the door. And if he knows you're in there taking a dump, he'll come and just like bang on the door as hard as he can, like five or six times. And it's so jarring and shocking. And every time I'm like, Dad, that's so annoying. Why are you doing that? And he just thinks it's funny no matter what. Drives me crazy. Yeah. Okay. Our next question. What's your favorite detective story? This can be a movie. It can be TV, can be a book, can be whatever you want. And I'm gonna go first. What? On this one.

• 1:09:48Mike Smith?

  Always just going first because you're the lead. No, I don't.

• 1:09:51Wes Larson?

  See, dude, Mike's on one. Yeah, you are on one. I'm on Jeff's side now. 100%.

• 1:09:57Mike Smith?

  I just love that that one commenter wrote in once about how you always went first.

• 1:10:02Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And they said that I love to hear the sound of my own voice. Yeah.

• 1:10:06Mike Smith?

  This is like the least true thing ever. But no, I want you to go first, Wes. I really do.

• 1:10:10Wes Larson?

  All right. I'm gonna say it's the first Sherlock Holmes novel, the sound of the Scarlet one.

• 1:10:16Mike Smith?

  Oh, the novel. This is the one with the gorilla running around?

• 1:10:19Wes Larson?

  No.

• 1:10:20Mike Smith?

  The pearl loin letter?

• 1:10:21Jeff Larson?

  Should've gone first, dude.

• 1:10:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I know. I'm just gonna, let's re-rerack this. It's called A Study in Scarlet. It's the first, it's by Arthur Conan Doyle. It's the first Sherlock Holmes novel. I really like it for a couple of reasons. It introduces you to these characters that we've all grown up with and that we know really well. So I think like, I'd always seen Sherlock Holmes stuff, but never really knew of his genesis and how him and Watson became friends and stuff. And you get to know that in this novel. And then also, a big part of it goes to like, early Mormon history in Utah. And it's really fascinating. And it's just a really interesting book and story and really charming.

• 1:11:04Wes Larson?

  And like, it made me love Sherlock Holmes more than I already do. So that's, that's my pick. A Study in Scarlet. Who's your favorite Sherlock? Like the actor, I guess actor portrayal? Robert Downey Jr. I love the Guy Ritchie Sherlock movies.

• 1:11:18Mike Smith?

  Nothing wrong with that.

• 1:11:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Mike Smith?

  I'm more of a Basil Rathbone guy. My mom raised me on Basil Rathbone.

• 1:11:26Wes Larson?

  Do you say it that way every time?

• 1:11:28Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:28Wes Larson?

  Basil.

• 1:11:29Mike Smith?

  Perfect. For me, it's a shot in the dark. It's the second Pink Panther movie, Inspector Clouseau. I think Peter Sellers might be the funniest person ever to have lived. Maybe, perhaps, ever.

• 1:11:39Wes Larson?

  Alright.

• 1:11:40Mike Smith?

  In history. But no, like, I think it is my favorite of his movies. He's just a bumbling inspector slash detective. It's kind of a murder mystery, whodunit kind of thing, but, uh, classic. Inspector Clouseau, he bumbles his way through it all. It's great. Man, it's so good.

• 1:11:56Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I think, like, all time, the most I ever got into, like, a detective thing was the show Luther. With Idris Elba. Especially like the first four episodes. Three and four, there's like a two-parter that's just like some of the best TV I'd ever seen in my life at that point.

• 1:12:13Wes Larson?

  That show, that show doesn't pull its punches either. Like, that was a violent, good show. Yeah.

• 1:12:19Jeff Larson?

  So, yeah, uh, I think that's like the most I've ever been into, like, a detective show, but...

• 1:12:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Jeff Larson?

  Now, it might be a different answer. Like, I really like Prisoners with Jake Gyllenhaal. I thought it was great.

• 1:12:32Wes Larson?

  You know, I want to do a quick, uh, honorable mention, which was, uh, the show Hannibal. I just thought it was a really good show and, like, super dark. It's one of those shows that I couldn't believe it was on NBC, because it has some of the craziest, like, most violent stuff I've ever seen in a show. But it's just really, really good, and Mads Mikkelsen is just like a tour de force in every single episode. So, I just love that show. Yeah.

• 1:12:58Mike Smith?

  I think Idris Elba might be the most handsome detective ever. I think he'll get my vote, right?

• 1:13:03Jeff Larson?

  Without a doubt.

• 1:13:03Mike Smith?

  I can't think of anyone that would compete.

• 1:13:06Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Daniel Craig's hot, but, yeah, I wouldn't vote him over Idris.

• 1:13:11Mike Smith?

  Like, as James Bond?

• 1:13:13Jeff Larson?

  I was thinking Glass, the...

• 1:13:15Mike Smith?

  Oh, Glass Onion.

• 1:13:15Jeff Larson?

  Knives Out, Knives Out.

• 1:13:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I think Idris Elba's like in my top five, like, probably most handsome men ever, though, you know?

• 1:13:23Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Wes Larson?

  He's up there.

• 1:13:24Mike Smith?

  There you go.

• 1:13:24Wes Larson?

  Alright, uh, I got a couple of rapid-fire questions for you guys. First of all, how much would you have to get paid to take an urukangi sting?

• 1:13:34Jeff Larson?

  You know, as like, right now, I'm doing alright, but like, in college, I'm gonna answer as if I were in college.

• 1:13:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 1:13:43Jeff Larson?

  Probably... Two thousand dollars.

• 1:13:46Wes Larson?

  Wow.

• 1:13:48Mike Smith?

  Knowing all the symptoms.

• 1:13:49Wes Larson?

  Bills are gonna be more than that.

• 1:13:51Mike Smith?

  Yeah, alright. I think if I'm like, ready to go and geared up, I have like, medical assistance at the ready. I have, hopefully the opiates do their thing for me. Right now, I'd probably do it for like, I don't know, two, $250,000?

• 1:14:08Wes Larson?

  Alright, that's a lot more than I thought.

• 1:14:10Mike Smith?

  But I, I mean, I'm not, I don't know.

• 1:14:13Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna be somewhere in between you guys.

• 1:14:14Mike Smith?

  Sounds like this is potentially lethal.

• 1:14:16Jeff Larson?

  Well, he's doing like, he's helping with another podcast, he's making like, side money.

• 1:14:21Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Wes Larson?

  You could die from us, like, people have died from this. And a lot of the other people want to die, because it's so bad.

• 1:14:30Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, but on the other hand, a nine-year-old did it for fun.

• 1:14:33Wes Larson?

  Totally, it wasn't for fun.

• 1:14:35Jeff Larson?

  Kinda.

• 1:14:35Wes Larson?

  I, I will say like, there is this kind of part of me that wants to experience it, just to say like, I've experienced the most painful sting.

• 1:14:44Jeff Larson?

  As a 20-year-old, there's a chance I would have done it for free if I was in like, the right environment.

• 1:14:49Wes Larson?

  You could hold it over a coyote Peterson for the rest of your life. No, for even you were stung by it. Yeah, so I think for me right now, my number's somewhere in the like, $30,000 to $50,000 range, for me to get stung by one of these.

• 1:15:01Jeff Larson?

  Mike, if we, if me and Wes both got stung though, and at the start, we were like, playing it cool, and just like, try it, dude.

• 1:15:08Mike Smith?

  Nope, no, no, no. I want, I want people to go revisit that section where Wes was listing off the symptoms, and really, truly think how much money it would take for you to undergo those symptoms.

• 1:15:20Wes Larson?

  Experience all that.

• 1:15:21Mike Smith?

  Like, literally wishing you were dead, literally.

• 1:15:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, there's probably people that, as they were being treated by it, they would like, give away any money to make that pain stop.

• 1:15:30Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 1:15:30Wes Larson?

  But, I think if I'm walking a beach in Australia, and some guy walks up with $30,000 in his hand, and he says, "All I'm gonna do is brush this jellyfish on your arm and you get this", I'd probably say yes.

• 1:15:42Mike Smith?

  Yeah. I don't know, man.

• 1:15:44Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:15:45Mike Smith?

  I feel like I went low even, but.

• 1:15:47Wes Larson?

  Do you think Coyote Peterson will ever sting himself with one of these?

• 1:15:51Mike Smith?

  I do.

• 1:15:52Jeff Larson?

  He's a content creator at heart.

• 1:15:53Wes Larson?

  He might have to, yeah, he might like get in a place where he just has to go really hard, but.

• 1:15:59Mike Smith?

  Yep.

• 1:15:59Jeff Larson?

  I just don't know how he can give a bigger reaction. Like, I think it'll be a worse sting, but I don't think, I don't know how he'll show it as worse as what he's given us.

• 1:16:10Mike Smith?

  Yeah. He got nibbled by like a ladybug and did a triple backflip. It was amazing.

• 1:16:15Jeff Larson?

  He needs to put like an Alka Seltzer tablet in his mouth or something and start like foaming.

• 1:16:21Mike Smith?

  Foaming.

• 1:16:23Wes Larson?

  All right. One last quick question. Do you prefer the name Marine Stinger, like they call these in Australia, or jellyfish?

• 1:16:30Mike Smith?

  Jellyfish.

• 1:16:32Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, jellyfish.

• 1:16:33Wes Larson?

  I think I do too.

• 1:16:33Mike Smith?

  It's more personality.

• 1:16:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Okay. All right.

• 1:16:36Jeff Larson?

  I don't like Marine Stinger for a jellyfish.

• 1:16:40Wes Larson?

  Okay. We're gonna do our, one of our newer categories, which is let's argue. And I think we're all primed for it.

• 1:16:47Mike Smith?

  Man, I'm.

• 1:16:49Wes Larson?

  And the thing we're gonna argue about is while you guys were in Mexico, each of you would text me something kind of like, hey, is Brent a picky eater? Or like, you know, these little things that I could tell you guys were maybe.

• 1:17:00Jeff Larson?

  Does Mike like to snorkel?

• 1:17:02Wes Larson?

  Hat, yes. This is about snorkeling. So we're gonna argue whether or not snorkeling is an enjoyable activity.

• 1:17:11Jeff Larson?

  Oh, Mike's ready to go.

• 1:17:13Mike Smith?

  No, it sucks. It's terrible.

• 1:17:15Wes Larson?

  I want to hear why you think snorkeling is terrible.

• 1:17:18Mike Smith?

  There's a lot of reasons. It's mostly exposure to the sun and the salt water down the snorkel hose, or whatever you call the little pipe thing. That sucks. You're on the chop of the surface of the water. It's never like, it's never relaxing float. I don't know. I just, it feels like way more uncomfortable to be worth having a not awesome analog to scuba diving, you know?

• 1:17:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah. It's like. When we snorkelled in the Great Barrier Reef, you weren't having fun.

• 1:17:45Mike Smith?

  Not all that much fun, no. Cause I'd have to go back on the boat and reapply sunscreen after like three seconds and then the, I don't know. It's just not that fun to like stand across the surface of the water.

• 1:17:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Mike Smith?

  See, I

• 1:17:59Jeff Larson?

  I I wanna counter that. First of all, you can just put on sunscreen, but I I can't

• 1:18:05Mike Smith?

  Or rash guard or something.

• 1:18:07Jeff Larson?

  You do have to be in the sun.

• 1:18:10Mike Smith?

  You do hate the sun.

• 1:18:11Jeff Larson?

  I think it's the most relaxing float you can have in the water. Like, what, you wanna be on your back, just like struggling to stay up with like waves splashing in your eyes and mouth and nose? Like, that's the other option for floating. With a snorkel, you get to like float with your belly down. You're looking at the reef, you're looking at fish, just kind of floating there relaxing. What's a more relaxing way to float on water?

• 1:18:39Mike Smith?

  I mean, you don't have to be in like the breaking waves of the surf. You could be in a lazy river inside with a nice drink.

• 1:18:47Jeff Larson?

  In breaking waves if you're snorkeling.

• 1:18:49Mike Smith?

  I feel like I haven't.

• 1:18:50Jeff Larson?

  That was your argument.

• 1:18:51Mike Smith?

  No, the surf, the surface of the ocean, wherever you're snorkeling, it's always like a little choppy. It's never like glassy, you know? It's always a little bit rocky and it's jostling you a little bit. But it gets really old really fast.

• 1:19:03Jeff Larson?

  You said it's not a relaxing float. I feel like that's the most relaxing float you can have in the ocean is with a snorkel.

• 1:19:10Mike Smith?

  I guess that's just a difference of opinion then.

• 1:19:13Jeff Larson?

  Well, what is then?

• 1:19:15Mike Smith?

  Wait, I wanna counter.

• 1:19:16Jeff Larson?

  You think it's more relaxing to float on your back in the ocean?

• 1:19:19Mike Smith?

  I would rather float underneath the surface of the water while you're scuba diving. You're just kind of gently drifting through the water.

• 1:19:25Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:19:25Mike Smith?

  No more jostles.

• 1:19:27Wes Larson?

  No, I don't think I'm gonna argue with you. I think I agree that like I prefer usually scuba diving to snorkeling. But for me, the thing I love about snorkeling is the freedom it gives you. Like, you can dive down, you can kind of navigate and be much more mobile in the water. I hate all the gear and stuff that comes with scuba diving. It feels very claustrophobic to me. And I do love that snorkeling. And Mike, when we were snorkeling in the Great Barrier Reef, you did a lot of diving and exploring.

• 1:19:57Mike Smith?

  Yeah, cuz I wanna be under the water and be able to stay under there.

• 1:20:00Wes Larson?

  And with new snorkel technology, you can just blow out the water. You don't have to swallow any of it.

• 1:20:06Mike Smith?

  You always get some in your mouth, though.

• 1:20:08Wes Larson?

  You don't.

• 1:20:08Mike Smith?

  And plus, like, you go underwater, you're swimming around under the water. You've got like 30 seconds at best cuz you're doing like some strenuous swimming. You're trying to navigate around. You have to go up to the surface over and over and over again. It's just kind of a lot less fun. Uh, it's just not worth it to me. It's, I don't enjoy it at all. I really don't.

• 1:20:27Jeff Larson?

  It is funny because like no one who I know loves swimming more than Mike. In the Olympics, he watches all the swimming events. He just loves swimming. No one loves scuba diving more than Mike. And then like, no one hates snorkeling more than Mike. It's just like a little bit like.

• 1:20:46Wes Larson?

  It was shocking to me.

• 1:20:46Jeff Larson?

  You know what?

• 1:20:47Mike Smith?

  When I, when I learned that. It's like playing flag football. It's like, let's, let's go do the real thing, how about? It's like a million times cooler.

• 1:20:54Jeff Larson?

  I can have fun with both.

• 1:20:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah, if you're obsessed with football, like, yeah, you wanna be playing tackle football. Alright, I think we've gotten to the point where we should stop. Let's argue and move on to our next category. Snorkeling sucks.

• 1:21:10Mike Smith?

  That's fine. If, it's fine if you guys, everyone else in the world can like it. I'm not against other people having fun. I just don't have fun doing it.

• 1:21:17Wes Larson?

  Fair enough. You know what? Mike, I love that you're an impassioned person that sticks to your opinions, so.

• 1:21:23Jeff Larson?

  I love that you're going on a tooth and claw trip in two weeks where snorkeling is one of the main activities.

• 1:21:29Mike Smith?

  It's gonna be super fun for everyone.

• 1:21:33Wes Larson?

  Okay, let's do listener questions. Jeff, you got some for a special ass episode?

• 1:21:39Jeff Larson?

  So yeah, these are just ass-themed listener questions. Okay, so this person helped me get my Instagram back when it got stolen once because it worked for Facebook, I think, but I still really have a hard time with their Instagram.

• 1:21:55Wes Larson?

  Akshara.

• 1:21:56Jeff Larson?

  Akshara, Akshara, yeah.

• 1:22:00Jeff Larson?

  Why do some monkeys primates have such prominent buttholes or just butt coloration?

• 1:22:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you know, I know this answer and I know what Akshara is talking about here. There's like that swelling you sometimes see on their rear end, these big like swollen patches. Uh, you see it in chimpanzees, you see it in mandrills. I think it is swelling and I think it has something to do with mating, but I can't speak to that.

• 1:22:27Jeff Larson?

  Isn't it kind of an alpha thing?

• 1:22:29Wes Larson?

  It's not. It happens to a bunch of different, it happens to both genders from what I remember. But I can't, I can't say for sure. I would have had to look it up.

• 1:22:38Jeff Larson?

  We don't know. All right.

• 1:22:39Mike Smith?

  Yeah, this looks really uncomfortable.

• 1:22:41Wes Larson?

  I know. It always looks like it would be really uncomfortable to sit on.

• 1:22:45Jeff Larson?

  Hmm. Christina Fukamoto asks best male celebrity ass. Who's the most caked? I'm gonna go with Sanji from the live action, uh, One Piece.

• 1:22:58Wes Larson?

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:22:59Jeff Larson?

  Caked up.

• 1:23:00Mike Smith?

  Thickness? Sure. I think Jim Carrey putting out the vibes in Dumb and Dumber actually like is doing a pretty good job putting out the vibes.

• 1:23:10Jeff Larson?

  I thought you'd go It's Ventura.

• 1:23:12Mike Smith?

  Hmm, that would have been a good one too. Talking out of it. I'm having a hard time like thinking of a good male ass. Oh, you know, uh, just like in the Avengers movie where they always talk about how Chris, what's his face?

• 1:23:26Jeff Larson?

  I mean, he does have a pretty big one.

• 1:23:27Mike Smith?

  Evans has America's ass. Yeah.

• 1:23:29Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Mike Smith?

  Sure. I'll go with that. That's the only one I can remember right now.

• 1:23:32Jeff Larson?

  Emily Woolcott asks, would you rather have just one butt cheek or three cheeks?

• 1:23:38Wes Larson?

  Three.

• 1:23:38Mike Smith?

  I'd have three. Yeah.

• 1:23:40Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, because then one, I don't think you get a butthole anymore.

• 1:23:43Wes Larson?

  Oh, you don't?

• 1:23:44Mike Smith?

  It feels really uncomfortable too.

• 1:23:45Jeff Larson?

  Where would it be?

• 1:23:47Mike Smith?

  I think you just have two options, two holes.

• 1:23:51Wes Larson?

  I feel like with one, you'd always kind of be like walking back and forth.

• 1:23:53Jeff Larson?

  You have two holes.

• 1:23:54Mike Smith?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:23:55Jeff Larson?

  With one butt cheek, where's the hole?

• 1:23:58Mike Smith?

  You don't get any, probably.

• 1:23:59Jeff Larson?

  That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah.

• 1:24:01Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's troubling.

• 1:24:02Jeff Larson?

  So I would, I would want two holes over three holes.

• 1:24:06Wes Larson?

  Is it even a cheek anymore?

• 1:24:07Mike Smith?

  Maybe?

• 1:24:08Wes Larson?

  Or is it like a shin? You know?

• 1:24:10Mike Smith?

  Shin.

• 1:24:14Mike Smith?

  Yeah, shin, I guess, kinda. There's a bone there.

• 1:24:16Jeff Larson?

  M. Hartner asks, which baby animal has the cutest ass?

• 1:24:21Wes Larson?

  It feels like a weird one to answer.

• 1:24:24Jeff Larson?

  You think?

• 1:24:25Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna go with wombats. I think wombats have really cute little butts.

• 1:24:29Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, that's a pretty good answer. I'm gonna go with a whitetail deer. I like just baby whitetail deer in general and their tails popping up. It's cute little butt.

• 1:24:41Mike Smith?

  Hmm, maybe like a little bunny rabbit, the cotton tail.

• 1:24:45Jeff Larson?

  Oh, yeah. Nice. The the wheel deal asks, hit me up with your wiping technique. Got a feeling Jeff runs with wet wipes crowd. Wes, I want, I did this one mostly for you because I think you vastly improved me and Mike's life. By just your love for bidets.

• 1:25:04Wes Larson?

  We talked about this actually in the other episode too, but um, yeah, for me, the bidet followed up by like a little drying.

• 1:25:12Jeff Larson?

  Would you give Wes credit for you having a bidet?

• 1:25:15Mike Smith?

  I'm trying to think now. I, I mean, they were on my radar before I even knew Wes. That's for sure, but I wasn't really using one until well after I met him regularly at least. So I guess, I guess probably.

• 1:25:28Jeff Larson?

  For me, he gets full credit.

• 1:25:30Wes Larson?

  They're great, they're great little mentions. Yeah. We're all three bidet users, so easy one to answer.

• 1:25:37Jeff Larson?

  JT eighty-five, I won best butt in high school. What animal would win that in their yearbook? I guess we kinda did that with babies, but I'm gonna, we can chat one another. I'll go koala.

• 1:25:49Wes Larson?

  I'm gonna say giant pandas.

• 1:25:51Mike Smith?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:52Jeff Larson?

  Oh, they're pretty caked up. That's a good answer.

• 1:25:55Mike Smith?

  Depends. If there's a lot of horse girls in your class, the horse is definitely gonna win. They got those weird, big muscular butts. Yeah. Gross. But I can see them getting a lot of the vote.

• 1:26:07Jeff Larson?

  Alright, that's it. That's all I got.

• 1:26:09Wes Larson?

  Okay, I got a couple subscriber ones super quick. This one is from Kyle. Kyle said, I was watching Beast Games. And one of the participants says he's a polar bear guard. I was just curious if you might be able to give some insight into this. Is that a real thing? Thanks so much. It is. In places where there's a lot of polar bears, people are hired that are like proficient with, generally with firearms, with the different deterrent tools to be polar bear guards. So they're often like stationed around. People that might be doing outdoor work or whatever in places where there's polar bears. So really their main job is just to look for polar bears. And if they see one approaching, they'll let everyone know. But they also are trained to like handle a polar bear if it's coming in too close. All right, I got one more.

• 1:26:54Wes Larson?

  This is from Amador. Amador says, hello, big fan of the show from Washington State. I want to get your thoughts on the pros and cons of hiking with a dog in relation to animal attack risks. I have two younger daughters, three and seven, and hope to take them on more hikes as they get older. I heard your most recent episode, this is a while ago, about the mountain lion attacks with the two young children. I generally stay on well-marked trails, but will be doing more exploring of northeast Washington State that doesn't have the crowds you find in Mount Rainier. Thank you. So basically, the question is hiking with dogs and whether or not you should take them. I would say in a place like northeast Washington, where the main thing you do kind of have to be thinking about is mountain lions and black bears. Having a dog is a pretty good idea.

• 1:27:38Wes Larson?

  Your dog is probably going to do enough to scare away either of those two animals. I think where it gets a lot more nuanced and complicated is when you're in grizzly bear country.

• 1:27:48Jeff Larson?

  And moose.

• 1:27:49Wes Larson?

  And moose, yeah. The dog can antagonize those animals to the level where they bring them into you. So my general advice to people, if you're worried about that, is in those kind of areas where you're especially worried to keep your dog on a leash. Because then your dog's actually going to probably scare the animal off. And it's not going to be able to go actually chase it and bring it back to you, which has happened with black bears too. Yeah, sure, why not?

• 1:28:15Mike Smith?

  Keep your freaks on a leash.

• 1:28:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Wow, no, that was the disturb.

• 1:28:21Mike Smith?

  That was kind of the breakdown though.

• 1:28:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah. The, I can't even.

• 1:28:24Mike Smith?

  Yeah, the scatting.

• 1:28:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I love that song. Anyway, no one can do it.

• 1:28:29Jeff Larson?

  Wait, I have a quick one.

• 1:28:31Mike Smith?

  Jonathan Davis.

• 1:28:31Jeff Larson?

  From a patron, Rachel Cox, she's on the news in Florida. Asked if an ant hits you going a trillion miles per hour, would you die or would it not matter?

• 1:28:43Wes Larson?

  Um, I think you would die, right?

• 1:28:45Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:28:47Jeff Larson?

  Really?

• 1:28:48Mike Smith?

  A trillion miles per hour?

• 1:28:50Jeff Larson?

  Well, I think the ant would disintegrate.

• 1:28:53Mike Smith?

  It disintegrate long before it even hit you if it was going that fast, but.

• 1:28:57Wes Larson?

  But the question was if it hit you going a trillion miles per hour. So like in this question, we're assuming that it's possible.

• 1:29:05Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, I'm saying it's like.

• 1:29:08Wes Larson?

  I think it would like bore a hole straight through you. I think you'd die immediately.

• 1:29:12Mike Smith?

  I think anything traveling that fast would like immediately just detonate everything in like a a million square miles.

• 1:29:19Jeff Larson?

  Blow up the whole town.

• 1:29:21Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Wes Larson?

  Okay. Well, thanks, guys, for sending those in. Thanks for the listener ones and the subscriber ones. We really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode. Again, if you want to hear the companion piece, go to our Patreon or Apple Griz Club. It's 10 bucks a month for either of those services. And I think that Griz Club actually might even just be nine. And you're going to get access to our whole back catalog, all of our bonus episodes, which I think we're probably well over 100 now, would be my guess.

• 1:29:51Mike Smith?

  Well over, yeah.

• 1:29:52Wes Larson?

  And you're, so you're going to get hours and hours and hours of additional content. You're going to be able to like be more in touch with our community. It's really fun. So check it out. And thanks for being here today, everyone.

• 1:30:06Jeff Larson?

  All right.

• 1:30:07Mike Smith?

  See you guys. Love you.

• 1:30:08Jeff Larson?

  Love you.

• 1:30:09Wes Larson?

  Bye.

• 1:30:09Mike Smith?

  Bye.