Grizzly Bear Attack - The Bear vs. the BFFs

Ann Quarterman and Christine Bialkowski were hiking in Glacier National Park when they experienced an unusual but still violent encounter with a momma bear and her two cubs. Wes talks about what we can learn from their experience, especially as it comes to bear spray. Watch here: https://youtu.be/DoG4LRUxnMc ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Wes Larson?

  All of you Tooth and Claw listeners know I love a good story and that's why I want to tell you about What Was That Like? What does it feel like to get hit by a car while you're biking, or be attacked by an alligator, or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you? If those are the kind of stories you find interesting, then What Was That Like? is the podcast for you. What Was That Like? is filled with real stories about the most surreal experiences of people's lives. On each episode, a guest comes on and tells about the time they found themselves in some kind of extreme situation. It could be an animal attack. Hello, Tooth and Claw listeners. A plane crash, winning the showcase on The Price is Right, one of my personal dreams, and more. The show brings you tons of completely surreal, completely true stories, all told through the lens of the person who actually

• 0:44Wes Larson?

  experienced it. Check out some of these topics that I know will be especially interesting to you Tooth and Claw listeners. Episode 178, John was attacked by a tiger. A guy in Russia who was attacked by a tiger and only had a road flare to defend himself. Or episode 41, Lauren was attacked by a monkey, a primate specialist who was working with howler monkeys, and ended up having a pretty crazy experience with one of them. So if you want to hear some unbelievable and inspiring firsthand stories, I invite you to check out What Was That Like? Every story is verified, so you know even the most bizarre tales are someone's reality. Listen to What Was That Like? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or the app you're using right now.

• 1:36Jeff Larson?

  Hello, everyone. Welcome to Tooth and Claw Podcast. You have our bear biologist, Wes Larson, which is convenient for us because we're also doing Bear Month.

• 1:46Wes Larson?

  Yep, it's Bear Month.

• 1:47Jeff Larson?

  It'd be a lot harder to do that without a bear biologist.

• 1:50Wes Larson?

  Sure.

• 1:51Jeff Larson?

  We'd still manage. Still do it.

• 1:53Mike Smith?

  To be clear, he's actually a human biologist. He just specializes in bears.

• 1:58Jeff Larson?

  That is a good thing to clear up.

• 1:59Wes Larson?

  You made that distinction.

• 2:01Jeff Larson?

  I was Wes's field tech. I worked with black bears with Wes. So you could call me probably like a bear specialist.

• 2:09Mike Smith?

  And maybe we should call you the tech guy. Tech guy. If you're the field tech.

• 2:15Jeff Larson?

  Then we have our tech guy, Mike.

• 2:19Wes Larson?

  There he is. Mike, you you committed a sin right before this this episode started recording. Do you know what it was?

• 2:26Mike Smith?

  I was going eighty five through a school zone.

• 2:29Wes Larson?

  Yeah, no, it's that you started singing a Creed song and now it's stuck in my head.

• 2:35Mike Smith?

  Is that a sin?

• 2:36Wes Larson?

  And I'm mad at you. I think so.

• 2:38Mike Smith?

  They're a Christian rock band. I think that's the opposite of a sin.

• 2:41Wes Larson?

  Fair enough. I, you know, I know a lot of like butt rock bands have kind of gotten like a renaissance lately. I don't. I don't feel that way about Creed.

• 2:51Mike Smith?

  You don't.

• 2:51Wes Larson?

  And I know you you have a soft spot for them. I don't like their music. I just can't get into it. I like the Sunday morning song. That's it. That's the only one that I like.

• 3:01Mike Smith?

  Sure. Should have been there on a Sunday morning, my own prison. I don't know if I have a soft spot. I have a spot for them. I don't know the like the duress of it, though.

• 3:11Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 3:11Mike Smith?

  Might be soft, might be hard. I don't know.

• 3:13Jeff Larson?

  Butt rock?

• 3:14Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 3:15Wes Larson?

  I have a spot for that. That's just like the they called like like Fuel and Creed and

• 3:21Mike Smith?

  Dotry.

• 3:22Wes Larson?

  Nickelback, Dotry. All those bands are butt rock bands. They belong in that second hole in your butt, Jeff. That's where you are.

• 3:31Jeff Larson?

  Stuck in my head is the Kendrick Lamar, but it's just the noises he does like bing bop boo bop.

• 3:40Wes Larson?

  That's always stuck in your head, though. That's been stuck in your head your whole life.

• 3:44Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, before he even like released his song, that was stuck in my head.

• 3:47Wes Larson?

  You're like, finally, someone's making music for me.

• 3:51Jeff Larson?

  Wait, if we if I had to like intro Mike with like something about bears, what could I say for Mike?

• 4:00Jeff Larson?

  He's he know he

• 4:01Wes Larson?

  Forced to know a lot about bears against his will.

• 4:04Jeff Larson?

  Name eight or can name six of the eight species of bears, Mike Smith.

• 4:09Mike Smith?

  Yeah, all eight's a tall order for me.

• 4:12Wes Larson?

  I think you could get all eight. Why don't you try it?

• 4:14Mike Smith?

  Let's do grizzly, black bear, polar bear, panda, spectacled, sun, Asiatic, black bear. Hold on.

• 4:22Jeff Larson?

  Oh, you're doing good.

• 4:23Mike Smith?

  Uh, sloth bear.

• 4:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:24Mike Smith?

  Is that all of it?

• 4:25Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Mike Smith?

  Whoa.

• 4:26Wes Larson?

  I think you, you know, for grizzly, better to say brown bear.

• 4:29Mike Smith?

  Brown bear.

• 4:30Wes Larson?

  And then for black bear, American black bear. But you did great. And spectacled bear, the, the true name is Andy and bear, but you can say spectacled. So, yeah.

• 4:39Mike Smith?

  You did great.

• 4:39Wes Larson?

  They, that was fast.

• 4:40Mike Smith?

  Shorten it down to Andy when you're familiar with them.

• 4:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Jeff briefly mentioned this, but we are partnering with Backpacker Magazine and Outside during Backpacker, Backpackers, Backpackers, uh, annual bear month, which is really cool. It's, it's a month where they release a lot of bear-related content, lots of bear safety stuff, some fun bear stories. I wrote an article for them about Night of the Grizzlies. It's just like a very bear-focused time for them in their publication. Yeah, we're really excited about it. We did a sloth bear episode, uh, for part of bear month, and now we're gonna do another bear episode. It's two of two.

• 5:20Jeff Larson?

  I ranked, uh, eight bears and sent it to him too. We'll see if, we'll see if it's good enough that they even wanna use it. Yeah, I definitely said just black bear and grizzly bear too, so.

• 5:33Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 5:34Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Where did koala bear rank?

• 5:36Jeff Larson?

  Oh. Oh shit.

• 5:37Mike Smith?

  Koala is.

• 5:38Jeff Larson?

  I guess I don't. I guess that means I don't consider them bears.

• 5:42Mike Smith?

  I think it's kinda like Pluto. Like they got, they were a bear for a long time, but then we decided they're not anymore. No longer.

• 5:49Jeff Larson?

  But now they are again.

• 5:50Mike Smith?

  They are, yeah.

• 5:53Jeff Larson?

  But then there's like a couple other bears that we didn't know about too.

• 5:57Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 5:58Jeff Larson?

  Right?

• 5:58Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 5:59Jeff Larson?

  Because that's what happened with Pluto. There's like a couple extra other little planets like it.

• 6:04Mike Smith?

  True.

• 6:04Wes Larson?

  Is that true?

• 6:04Mike Smith?

  Yeah. What's the little like microscopic bear that's in our blood or whatever?

• 6:09Wes Larson?

  Oh, tardigrades?

• 6:10Jeff Larson?

  I think there's like a couple of things like Pluto. Like it's like, if you're gonna teach us about Pluto, you might as well teach us about these other couple too.

• 6:17Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 6:19Wes Larson?

  All right. Well, should we get into our episode?

• 6:22Mike Smith?

  Let's go.

• 6:23Wes Larson?

  Okay. As I mentioned, it's a bear episode. I think it's a fun one. I think it's one that has some interesting factors that you wouldn't expect from our typical bear episode. And the sources for this one are almost primarily, definitely primarily, almost solely, the book Mark of the Grizzly by Scott McMillan. It's a book we've used before. It was written in the 90s. There are some kind of updates to it. Some of the information in that book, I just kind of want to tell people, some of that information is outdated. So this isn't a bear book I would recommend basing like bear safety stuff off of, but there are some great stories in it.

• 7:00Mike Smith?

  Shouldn't it be called Scott of the Grizzly and not Mark?

• 7:05Wes Larson?

  Heyo, let's do the rimshot.

• 7:08Mike Smith?

  Rimshot, do a rimshot. Bill, thanks.

• 7:12Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 7:14Mike Smith?

  I can't do it every time.

• 7:15Jeff Larson?

  When you write a grizzly book, what are you gonna name it, Wes?

• 7:20Wes Larson?

  Scott of the Grizzly.

• 7:25Mike Smith?

  I'd call it West Side Story.

• 7:31Jeff Larson?

  It'd be about sharks, though.

• 7:33Mike Smith?

  Ooh, yeah. Or jets. When you write your 9/11 memoir, where you were.

• 7:43Wes Larson?

  That's so dumb. Oh, the dumb ones always get Mike. There he is.

• 7:49Mike Smith?

  Okay, I'm done. I'm done talking. I'm not participating in this episode anymore.

• 7:53Wes Larson?

  All right. Ann Quarterman and Christine Bialkowski were pretty tough women. They'd grown up in a mountain town of Rossland, British Columbia, which is just north of the Washington State border. And like a lot of people that grow up in mountain towns, they spent their lives kind of just working odd jobs and prepping for the ski season. They're big into skiing. They're big into outdoor recreation. In October of 1994, when Ann was 28 and Christine was 25, and just a year after the release of Jurassic Park into theaters, Ann decided to travel to the slightly larger town of Revelstoke, British Columbia, to look for work. And Revelstoke sits on the banks of the Columbia River. Historically, it was a really important

• 8:34Wes Larson?

  logging town because they would cut logs there, put them on the river and ship them to the ocean. But after a highways, a highway was completed that connected like Calgary and some of these larger cities, it started turning into a tourist destination. There's some great skiing nearby, really great hiking, and it also had a ton of bears. So it was a place that sometimes people would go to look for wildlife. So as more and more people started visiting Revelstoke, Revelstoke, the local wildlife managers had to get them, had to get a little bit more serious about the behavior of the bears. And in 1994, they had just installed electric fences around the town dump, which historically had been a huge draw for both grizzly and black bears. And we've talked about-

• 9:17Jeff Larson?

  Bears are pissed.

• 9:18Wes Larson?

  These bears are not happy. Yeah. We've talked about that quite a bit. We, we did an episode with National Park After Dark where we talked about what, what changed in Yellowstone after they closed the dumps. Do you guys kind of remember what generally happens to bears that are food conditioned like that? Once they close off that, that food source?

• 9:36Jeff Larson?

  They start getting into trouble.

• 9:38Wes Larson?

  Exactly. That's exactly the answer I was looking for. They start getting into trouble.

• 9:42Jeff Larson?

  Is that why you brought up Jurassic Park?

• 9:44Wes Larson?

  It's not, but-

• 9:45Jeff Larson?

  Because like when the electric fence turns off, the T-Rex gets into trouble?

• 9:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you know, we're, we're a full circle here.

• 9:53Jeff Larson?

  But then at the end of the day, is the bear gonna save them from like coyotes or something?

• 9:57Wes Larson?

  I don't, yeah, you're just gonna have to wait and see. Spoiler, it doesn't. Uh, so like Jeff said, they start getting into trouble and that's because they have had this access.

• 10:15Wes Larson?

  They started getting into trouble because they'd had all this access to really high calorie, really nutritionally poor, but calorie dense food for these bears. And they lost that access. So they started seeking out anthropogenic food in other sources. Anthropogenic just means like human food. So during these years after they closed the dump and around when they closed the dump, hundreds of- Black and grizzly bears were killed or relocated from Rebelstoke in the nineties. It was a real hotspot for bear conflict.

• 10:48Mike Smith?

  What did that look like? People were just sent out with hunting rifles and killed them? Or was it more of a euthanasia kind of program?

• 10:54Wes Larson?

  It was like managers. So like wildlife officials would go out and kill bears that were getting into trouble. But lots of calls, lots of people that had conflict bears in their yard or in their trash or whatever. There was one year where they actually had to cancel trick or treating because there were so many bears out roaming the streets. Yeah.

• 11:11Mike Smith?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 11:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Kids are pissed too.

• 11:15Jeff Larson?

  Bears would have loved like trick or treating too, because if they were smart enough, they could just act like it was a costume.

• 11:23Wes Larson?

  They could dress up. Yeah. Or dress up like a vampire or something. Yeah. You're right. They could have just been a bear.

• 11:29Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Three of them stacked on each other's shoulders with a trench coat. They could have snuck in anywhere.

• 11:34Jeff Larson?

  Just holding its candy bag up.

• 11:39Wes Larson?

  But neither Anne or Christine were too worried about bears as they drove to Rebelstoke in early October of 94. They both had recreated and worked plenty in the woods of interior British Columbia. They had their fair share of bear encounters throughout their lives, albeit mostly with black bears. Christine's five, four. She's pretty athletic. She's worked on a biological survey team where she counted ungulates. She spent a lot of time camping and looking for wildlife. Anne was a lot taller, but similarly athletic and worked as a cook in backcountry lodges and camps. Basically, the point I'm trying to get to here is that neither of these women are slouches when it comes to the great outdoors. Like they know their way around hiking, camping, all of this.

• 12:22Wes Larson?

  The main reason for the relocation to Rebelstoke was that Anne had found an open position at Durand Glacier Chalet in the northern Selkirk Mountains. This is a beautiful chalet that sits near Durand Glacier, mostly caters to skiers, but there's also hikers in the summer. And it's only accessible by helicopter, Jurassic Park again, or a 14 kilometer hike, 8.7 miles. But Anne, when she was applying for this job, had heard from locals, from someone that had worked there, that the chalet people would be more impressed if she hiked to her job interview rather than took the helicopter. So her and Christine decided that they'd hike up there.

• 13:02Mike Smith?

  Like Timothy?

• 13:02Jeff Larson?

  Interesting.

• 13:03Wes Larson?

  What do you mean?

• 13:04Mike Smith?

  Timothy Chalet, those, that kind of people.

• 13:07Wes Larson?

  Exactly.

• 13:07Jeff Larson?

  Like, most job interviews, if you take a helicopter, they'll be more impressed than.

• 13:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Not if it's their helicopter, though. Yeah.

• 13:17Mike Smith?

  If someone flew to my house with a helicopter and asked to be an intern for Tooth and Claw, I'd be like, no questions asked.

• 13:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

• 13:27Jeff Larson?

  Be like, yeah, you got it.

• 13:29Wes Larson?

  Do you want my job?

• 13:32Wes Larson?

  All right. So in the morning of October 2nd, 1994, it was cold and wet. Rain clouds and mist were hugging the beautiful Selkirk Mountains when Ann and Christine turned onto the dirt road at the Woolsey Creek Turnoff. The skinny one-lane, two-track road wound its way past rushing creeks and dense forest, so dark that there could be a wolverine, a mountain lion, or a grizzly bear standing 30 feet from the road, and you wouldn't see it. It's the kind of place that both Ann and Christine had grown to love, and they're really excited about this hike. When they finally reached the small parking lot at the end of this two-track road, Ann parks her Ford Ranger, they get their backpacks, their rain gear, and their food together, they start up the trail.

• 14:14Wes Larson?

  And their plan is to sleep at the chalet, so they didn't bring like a tent or sleeping bags or any kind of heavy gear. They're just kind of day hiking up there.

• 14:22Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. Eight miles, that's probably like, without a huge backpack, they could probably do that in like, five hours or so, right?

• 14:30Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it depends on, yeah, about that, because there's a lot of elevation.

• 14:34Mike Smith?

  Seems like they know what they're doing out there, too.

• 14:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah, on a flat hike, you could do that in like, three hours, but um, this is kind of a tricky hike. You have to go across the glacier, Durand Glacier, there's like quite a bit.

• 14:45Jeff Larson?

  Step over mountain lions.

• 14:46Wes Larson?

  Water, yeah.

• 14:50Wes Larson?

  Pretty quickly into this hike, these women noticed two things. The first is that not many people had been using this trail, because it's very small and it's pretty overgrown.

• 15:00Jeff Larson?

  But it's to a glacier?

• 15:02Wes Larson?

  It goes to a glacier. Yeah, I mean, this is British Columbia, though, there's lots of glaciers, you know? And it's not particularly easy to get to.

• 15:09Jeff Larson?

  People would be wanting to go eight miles to a glacier.

• 15:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 15:13Mike Smith?

  Not me.

• 15:16Wes Larson?

  The second thing they noticed, well, I do think to a lot of people that visited this area would take-

• 15:21Mike Smith?

  If there was a glacier in my backyard, I would shut the blinds. I wouldn't even look at it.

• 15:27Wes Larson?

  Never, not once.

• 15:29Mike Smith?

  No.

• 15:29Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. Yeah, I think a lot of people that went to this glacier would take the helicopter. So this hike, the trail wasn't used that much. The second thing they noticed, aside from the trail not being very used and there not being many people, is that bears had been using the trail pretty recently. Within the first mile of their hike, they found bear scat, or bear poop. And while neither woman was particularly worried about bears, they did start making some noise, especially when they're close to the creek, and their normal noises, like normal conversation, is drowned out by the rushing water. And I don't know if that's something we really talk too much about on the podcast, but that's really smart. If you're around any kind of natural feature that might be drowning out

• 16:11Wes Larson?

  the normal noises that you're making, it's important that you get louder. It's important that you make enough noise near those features that a bear can still hear you coming, because it does mask a lot of noise, and they do tend to be a little bit more jumpy around running water and whatnot.

• 16:26Mike Smith?

  That makes sense. Like in a quiet place?

• 16:28Wes Larson?

  It's just like in a quiet place.

• 16:30Mike Smith?

  To be louder than that waterfall?

• 16:32Wes Larson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 16:33Jeff Larson?

  Mike would be great at that.

• 16:34Wes Larson?

  Build your house by the waterfall.

• 16:36Jeff Larson?

  I feel like Mike can't like whisper very well.

• 16:39Mike Smith?

  I'm bad at whispering. I'm too bad.

• 16:41Wes Larson?

  Remember the leopard? Do you remember the leopard?

• 16:44Mike Smith?

  I remember, oh man, I remember that leopard.

• 16:48Wes Larson?

  Got shushed, and then he hated me for like two days.

• 16:50Mike Smith?

  I got humiliated in front of the group. And then the group, and then the guides were like screaming at each other over the leopards, sleeping in their body.

• 16:59Jeff Larson?

  That really made it. That made us feel bad once the guy was yelling.

• 17:03Wes Larson?

  The guy did not care.

• 17:07Mike Smith?

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• 18:27Wes Larson?

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• 19:09Wes Larson?

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• 19:53Wes Larson?

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• 20:35Wes Larson?

  Think about like how far your voice is carrying, how much that noise is being masked by other things. Because if you're in a place, especially a place that has decent amount of grizzly bears like this, you need to be making enough noise to where a grizzly bear can hear you coming. And that way it's not going to be surprised by your sudden presence. Okay, uh, it's unclear to me if these women knew that the berry crop had been pretty bad that year or that the dump had been fenced off. But those two things had likely led to the local bears being a bit more testy that year. So when we talked about that, these bears losing these food sources, not having many berries, not having the dump. I think people's knee jerk reaction might be to assume

• 21:17Wes Larson?

  that that means that those bears are going to be more likely to attack people, like as a predator, to eat the people. That's not necessarily the case. It's not that they're going to be looking at people for food. What it does mean is they have to spend a lot more time looking for food. And that puts them at a higher risk of running into other bears or other threats. So it means those bears are going to be more on edge and more defensive.

• 21:40Jeff Larson?

  And they're probably like more likely to get into garbage and stuff that's not protected, right?

• 21:47Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they'll start taking bigger risks to get at food as well. So the main thing to remember in those kinds of situations, and this is kind of like what Timothy Treadwell found himself in at the end, when the bears don't have good food, they just kind of get antsy and testy and more defensive. When they can just sit in one spot and have like total access to high calorie, consistent, plentiful food, they're usually like pretty happy, not very wary, not very defensive.

• 22:16Mike Smith?

  Is that a thing that comes along with them being territorial? Like they're very comfortable in their territory, but if they venture outside of their comfort zone, do they get a little more antsy like that? Is that a behavior bears exhibit?

• 22:28Wes Larson?

  Uh, to some extent, but when we talk about bears being territorial, like bears will share their range with other bears. It's not like they have this like neatly defined like border and it's like this is mine, no one else comes in here. They bump into other bears and when, when food sources like this are low, they do have to start going to, to other places. They have to move around a lot more and it's really just like moving through their habitat. They're just a little bit more on edge because there is the possibility of bumping into other bears, bumping into humans, bumping into threats. So they do just get a little bit more wary.

• 23:06Jeff Larson?

  So Wes.

• 23:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Jeff Larson?

  The whole world has a problem with having like too much waste right now.

• 23:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Jeff Larson?

  Dumps are getting like too much stuff.

• 23:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 23:15Jeff Larson?

  So what if we got like 15 times more bears and just let them in the dumps?

• 23:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, we don't want to do that though, because then there's not wild animals anymore, you know? That's the problem there. Also, I have to quickly apologize. There is a robin at my house that is driving me up the wall. It just like, it has been calling nonstop. I scared it off right before we recorded, but it's back. So if you guys hear a bird calling in the background, I'm sorry. It's been like three days of this. Okay.

• 23:44Mike Smith?

  I like it. It helps us kind of like put ourselves out.

• 23:47Wes Larson?

  Sounds like we're out there. Yeah, it's just ambient noise. Okay. So all that is to say, 1994 was probably a peak year for the local bears to be pretty stressed, especially because they had just lost access to the dump. And I have no idea if Anne or Christine knew that they had to be especially cautious on the trail that day. They'd been hiking about three hours when they climbed over a rock face. And this ecotype changed from conifer forest to much more open country consisting of low brush and small stands of deciduous trees. So essentially, they like came up on this rock out of the forest. And when they like went over the top of the rock, they were in this big field of low brush and like aspen trees or birch trees or whatever.

• 24:32Wes Larson?

  And because it was October, all these trees were in their fall colors and the brush was in its fall colors. It was really beautiful. They're suddenly surrounded by all this red and orange and yellow.

• 24:42Jeff Larson?

  Ooh, nice.

• 24:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:44Mike Smith?

  Do you know how the stats bear out what environment bear attacks most frequently happen? Are they more frequently occurring in forested areas or out in the open?

• 24:55Wes Larson?

  It really depends on the species with with brown bears or grizzly bears. They tend to be in open areas on forest edges. So

• 25:03Mike Smith?

  So like right where?

• 25:04Wes Larson?

  Exactly like this, like this is prime grizzly like habitat. So it's more in this kind of country, like open areas, open fields, but near forest, if that makes sense.

• 25:15Mike Smith?

  Yeah, okay. Uh oh.

• 25:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah. So they they open up into this field. They see all these fall colors. They stand there for a few minutes, just like kind of transfixed by this beautiful scene. And then they start walking out into the field. And that's when they first saw the bears. Female grizzly with two cubs from that year. Really, though, all they were seeing were these large brown dots because these bears are about 300 meters away, which is about 984 feet or Jeff, about 25 school buses.

• 25:47Jeff Larson?

  25 school buses.

• 25:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I did the I did the math for you this time, but I'm glad that you just checked me in your head.

• 25:53Jeff Larson?

  Three football fields.

• 25:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah, about three football fields. So a good distance. This is a distance where even if I'm in the back country and I see bears, I'm just kind of going to enjoy it. I'm going to think, oh, I get to look at some bears. You're feeling pretty confident that there's enough space between you. And that's what Anne and Christine felt. They were happy to have seen bears and had brought some bear spray. I'm doing quotation marks because we're going to talk about her bear spray in a bit. So she's feeling particularly confident. But that feeling of relative safety immediately went away when this female bear started running at full speed at 300 meters away in their direction.

• 26:32Jeff Larson?

  That's crazy.

• 26:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 26:34Mike Smith?

  Is their eyesight good enough for that bear to really know what it's running at even?

• 26:39Wes Larson?

  It probably smelled them. It probably doesn't totally know what it's charging, but it's something that it's not happy about.

• 26:47Mike Smith?

  That's crazy.

• 26:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's just seen them too. Their eyesight's somewhat similar to ours. I don't think they have quite the range of colors that we see, but as far as like distance and stuff, I think it's somewhat similar. So it starts running at them, full speed in their direction. They both start yelling, but the bear kept coming. And Anne turns to see Christine running away in the opposite direction. She yells to Christine to stop running and Christine slows to a fast walk and Anne kind of briskly walks up to join her. Uh, there's a small ridge close by and they both figure if they could get behind this ridge and out of the line of sight of this bear, it might discourage her. The bear might think that they were gone, which seems like a good idea, but it's a really bad idea.

• 27:32Wes Larson?

  And the reason for that is, is this bear has already seen them or smelled them or whatever. It knows they're a threat. It knows they're there. Walking away slowly while watching this bear is the right decision. You want to keep eyes on it. You want to walk away slowly. And if you can increase that distance, if it stops or whatever, and you keep walking, it's probably going to be enough to discourage it. But when you hide behind this ridge, hiding anywhere really, if that bear does keep coming and it pops its head up over that ridge, suddenly it's another surprise encounter at a much closer distance and that's not a good thing to do.

• 28:05Mike Smith?

  I know this, this is a serious situation and it's about to get a lot more, I imagine, dangerous, but it reminds me, it just reminds me of the scene in Monty Python where the guy is running towards the castle. And they keep like switching perspectives and it's just like, keeps running and running. 300 meters is like a long time to kind of wait and be like, all right, this bear is coming at us. Although I guess bears can close that distance really fast.

• 28:31Wes Larson?

  That's the thing at 30 miles per hour. I mean, it's not going to take it very long. But yeah, I think that's why this one is so interesting to me is like, they had some time to kind of decide what to do. Usually people don't. Don't have time. Usually these encounters happen thirty feet or less and you have a few seconds to react. They had like probably twenty, thirty seconds, if not more, you know? So they unfortunately made a bad decision hiding from this bear. It that increases this bear's kind of threat behavior. Because threats are things that are going to kind of sneak around and hide. And then also created another potential surprise encounter. And sure enough.

• 29:12Jeff Larson?

  What if it's like a really good hiding spot? Like what? In Lord of the Rings, when Sam has that.

• 29:19Wes Larson?

  This glock.

• 29:19Jeff Larson?

  He puts up.

• 29:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah, I don't think that's great still. They, I mean.

• 29:25Jeff Larson?

  They would smell him out.

• 29:26Wes Larson?

  They'd probably smell you. Yeah.

• 29:30Wes Larson?

  That's a great question. Alright, so they make it to the small ridge, they're crouched behind it and gets her spray out and ready to go. And sure enough, after a few seconds, the female grizzly's head pops up over this ridge about twenty-five feet away. And when she sees these two women, she charges it. Okay, really quickly, and I'm kind of just mixing our biology and information through the story today. But let's talk quickly about when you should deploy your bear spray. Bear spray lasts for about seven seconds and really you should do your first spray. When that bear is about forty or fifty feet away from you. And the reason for that is the spray isn't going to hit it square in the face at that distance.

• 30:12Wes Larson?

  Yeah, about, well, it's about one school bus. Yeah, from what I looked up earlier. The reason for that is that spray is going to sit in the air. You're going to kind of want to spray it low. It's going to sit in the air because it's aerosolized. So that pepper is just like floating in the air between you and the bear. That forces that bear to run through that wall of spray to get to you. So it's kind of your first like volley toward the bear with the spray. And it, you're, again, you're not aiming to hit it right in the face. You're just trying to put up, put up that protective barrier. Between you and the bear. So two or three seconds to spray kind of lower toward the ground in front of you. Yeah.

• 30:51Jeff Larson?

  Just getting it up in the.

• 30:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:54Mike Smith?

  Is it?

• 30:54Jeff Larson?

  It doesn't need to hit you straight in up.

• 30:56Mike Smith?

  That's true.

• 30:57Jeff Larson?

  Your nose.

• 30:57Wes Larson?

  But they try to. They do try to.

• 30:59Jeff Larson?

  They try to aim in your nostrils.

• 31:01Wes Larson?

  They try and get you right in your face. Yes.

• 31:04Mike Smith?

  But it's still effective even.

• 31:05Jeff Larson?

  The bear right in the face?

• 31:06Wes Larson?

  It would be great if you could, but not at that distance. You're not going to get them at that distance.

• 31:11Mike Smith?

  Is bear spray a single use? Like you discharge it one time only? So you kind of have to have your stuff together?

• 31:18Wes Larson?

  You don't have to do one push. You can do multiple pushes. But it's not a product where after you've used it, you want to like save it for another day. Because it'll lose head pressure and it'll have like pepper that leaks out. And you can get it on your fingers or whatever. But it's got about seven seconds of spray in it and you can do multiple bursts. So I always say use like short bursts and start at about forty to fifty feet. This bear closed that twenty feet in between these women and it in seconds. And when she was five feet away from the women, she rose to her hind legs. And that's when Anne got her bear spray and sprayed this bear right in the face.

• 32:00Wes Larson?

  But actually it was more like she squirted it right in the face. You see?

• 32:04Jeff Larson?

  Oh, no. It was like a mace thing?

• 32:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah, she either had a really old can of bear spray. I couldn't find any photos of it or any good information. She either had a really old can of bear spray that had lost all of its pressure. Or she'd bought mace thinking it was bear spray. And I think that's possible because I remember the first time that we ever bought bear spray is with dad. They sold him a little thing of mace for one of his bear sprays. And when it expired, I went out and tried to spray it and it was just like the tiniest little squirt. It was like one of those toy squirt guns you get for like a dollar. That's like the amount of mace that shot out and it would be totally ineffective against a bear.

• 32:46Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Jeff Larson?

  We should sell that just to make money and get more attack stories.

• 32:51Wes Larson?

  Attack stories.

• 32:54Mike Smith?

  Win, win.

• 32:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Either way, whichever she had either an expired can or a really bad can. And I don't, the reason I don't think it was expired is it'd have to be really expired to be that ineffective. But either way, this cloud of aerosolized capsaicin that's supposed to come out of the bear spray can and travel 30 feet was just a small squirt of pepper that almost didn't even make it to the bear. And it didn't stop this charging grizzly that was now completely locked in on Christine.

• 33:25Jeff Larson?

  Well, and part of why it might have been maced too is like she kinda knew to wait until it was right next to her. Like maybe if it's a full bear spray, she would have felt more confident spraying it earlier.

• 33:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah. The other thing is this is 1994. Bear spray is still kind of for wide use, a relatively new product. There's not really good education out about it. So really, we'll talk about this at the end. These women didn't make many mistakes. They made a couple small ones, but for the most part, they did a really good job. So I'm in a five star hotel right now in Thailand. I'm sitting on the bed. It's a great bed. It's amazing. I'm still dreaming of my bed back home and that's because it's a Brooklyn bedding bed. I have the Sedona Elite from Brooklyn Bedding. I absolutely love it. Every night I look forward to just climbing into bed and going to sleep because it's such a good mattress. And that's because Brooklyn Bedding has been assembling top

• 34:18Wes Larson?

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• 35:01Wes Larson?

  love my mattress. So go to brooklandbedding.com, use our promo code TOOTH at checkout to get 30% off sitewide during the Black Friday sale exclusively with our code. That's brooklynbedding.com and promo code TOOTH for 30% off sitewide. Let them know that we sent you in the survey after checkout. Brooklynbedding.com promo code TOOTH. If you've spent much time in the West, you know that every ski town has a brand that the locals are going to wear before the rest of the country catches on. In Jackson Hole, that brand is STEO. STEO is designed and tested in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, right at the base of the Tetons by locals who ski, bike, climb, and fish there every day. I've spent a lot of time in Jackson Hole.

• 35:44Wes Larson?

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• 36:29Wes Larson?

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• 37:14Wes Larson?

  Wild Alaskan Company is the best way to get Wild caught, perfectly portioned, nutrient-dense seafood, delivered directly to your door. And for me, again, the thing that is just so important is that it is 100% wild caught, never farmed. So not only does that mean there aren't antibiotics, or GMOs, or additives, but it also means they're getting it from fisheries, they're doing a good job, care about sustainability, and that aren't farming or catching these fish in really destructive ways. Because it's wild caught from Alaska, every order supports sustainable harvesting practices, and your membership will help support that industry. And it's really important, again, that our choices support sustainable fisheries instead of the ones that are causing a lot of problems.

• 37:58Wes Larson?

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• 38:43Wes Larson?

  Anne had sprayed it, it blows right past her, goes to Christine, it bites into her left elbow and shakes her through the air by her arm, the way a dog throws around a limp toy. It's whipping her back and forth so hard that she's worried her arm might even separate from her body, and that's when Anne shows back up to intervene. Anne runs right up next to this bear and sprays it again at point-blank range. Once again, just a dribble of pepper shoots out onto the bear's face. It's not nearly enough to send the bear running, but it was enough to change its focus to Anne. So the bear effortlessly tosses Christine away by the arm. She flies into a small tree nearby.

• 39:24Wes Larson?

  And then the grizzly attacks Anne. It knocks Anne to the ground and it bites into her right arm, which she'd raised to protect herself and try and fight off the bear. And she immediately feels teeth hitting the bones of her upper and lower arm. And she has the clarity to realize that her bones were being scraped by the teeth, but not broken. Like she could feel the teeth scraping on her arm bones, but not breaking them. And then she feels them shredding through her triceps, her biceps and her forearm muscles. And she starts screaming. Somehow she's still holding on to the bear spray. She tries it again. But now the can's either empty or whatever tiny bit of pressure was still in there was gone. So she had this sinking feeling that she's about to die as this terrible musty and rotten smell

• 40:09Wes Larson?

  of the bear overwhelms her senses.

• 40:11Jeff Larson?

  She's like rubbing the end, the nozzle of it to get a little on her finger to try to rub in the bear's eye.

• 40:18Wes Larson?

  And its nose.

• 40:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Anne knew her only choice now is to play dead. So she rolls onto her stomach. And that's true. Like if you're in this situation of you've exhausted your bear spray, you don't have any other kind of deterrent and the bear is actively mauling you. This is the rare occasion when you should go into the fetal position and try and play dead and hope it's just a defensive attack, especially with the female with cubs. It probably is a defensive attack. So she rolls onto her stomach and she stops fighting the bear. It immediately flips her back onto her back, but she rolls onto her stomach once again. And now the bear starts tearing into her back where luckily she's still wearing her backpack. So this pack absorbs a lot of the punishment, but she's still bitten several times on both sides of her torso.

• 41:05Wes Larson?

  But they're kind of just puncture bites. This bear isn't biting and tearing. She's just getting puncture wounds, not these huge ripping, tearing bites, which is really, uh, again indicative of a, a bear that's just trying to neutralize a threat. Often these females with cubs especially, they'll just kind of bite a bunch of times to show you they mean business. And then they back off. Jeff, you do that sometimes.

• 41:28Jeff Larson?

  Maybe she was screaming because she's upset she's going to be late to her job interview.

• 41:35Jeff Larson?

  She's like, I really want this job. The bear's like, no. All right. She's like, I hope they buy this excuse.

• 41:46Wes Larson?

  Her luck is about to run out, though, because I said she was lucky that this bear was just biting and not tearing.

• 41:53Mike Smith?

  I guess luck's relative.

• 41:55Wes Larson?

  Yeah, so I did quotation marks again. You audio listeners can't see that, but her luck is about to run out. The bear reached forward with one of its paws and these huge three inch claws caught right above her left temple. So about an inch above her eye and the rest of the paw, this is like its furthest claw and the rest of its paw was over the top of her head. And in one swift motion, the bear raked its claws back across the top of her head from her left temple to her right ear and pulled her scalp all the way off, exposing the bone of her skull.

• 42:31Mike Smith?

  Dude.

• 42:32Wes Larson?

  So really, I say all the way off, but it was still hanging by like one flap on the back of her head. But her entire skull on the front part of her head was visible.

• 42:40Jeff Larson?

  That's what sucks with like a bear swiping victims faces. Like compared to like a cat or something. I feel like with a cat, it more like slices into their skin. With a bear, it like scalps them.

• 42:53Wes Larson?

  Just like tears everything away. Yeah, they're so strong. I mean, when you think about it with those same claws, like they can, you know, break a moose's back. They can dig up, like rip apart a log. There's so many things they do.

• 43:07Mike Smith?

  Pick a pawpaw fruit.

• 43:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah, pick a pawpaw fruit. There's so many things they can do with that muscle and those claws that scalping a human is like, is nothing for them. I didn't know that pawpaw is just papaya. Australians call papaya pawpaw.

• 43:23Mike Smith?

  Is that what that means?

• 43:25Wes Larson?

  I was watching Australian Survivor and they called papaya pawpaw.

• 43:28Mike Smith?

  What the heck?

• 43:29Wes Larson?

  Yeah, anyway.

• 43:30Jeff Larson?

  Can I do a little correction corner or something since you got that up?

• 43:34Wes Larson?

  Sure.

• 43:34Jeff Larson?

  I guess someone wrote in and said in Australia, they call wallabies wallaroos.

• 43:39Wes Larson?

  Wallaroos?

• 43:40Mike Smith?

  Oh, wow.

• 43:42Wes Larson?

  Of course they do.

• 43:44Jeff Larson?

  All right. Well, great.

• 43:46Wes Larson?

  Like, alright.

• 43:46Jeff Larson?

  A nickname, but yeah, anyway.

• 43:48Mike Smith?

  Yeah, that's a shout from our previous episode where Jeff wanted to rename Wallabies.

• 43:57Wes Larson?

  Alright, so Anne has just been scalped. She's screaming, her screams reach a new pitch as warm blood pours down on her face. And somewhere deep inside her primal brain, she knows that she has to quit screaming if she wants to spare to actually think she's dead. Christine meanwhile, is watching this bear kill her friend on the ground. And for her, it's like she got tagged back into this fight. So she runs at the bear, she starts kicking in the head as hard as she can while it's focused on Anne on the ground.

• 44:30Mike Smith?

  No way.

• 44:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Mike Smith?

  That's incredible.

• 44:32Wes Larson?

  Yeah, she kicks it so hard that she falls backward. She lands on her back and when she falls on the ground, the bear turns on her again, switching its attention once again from Anne to Christine, biting into Christine's lower left leg. But she still has a right leg. She curls it back and kicks out as hard and as fast as she can. And her boot connects right with the nose of the bear, which makes it let go. And it shakes its head, runs to her side, bites her once in the torso, hard and quick, and then releases her and runs off to join its cubs that are crying in the distance.

• 45:07Jeff Larson?

  Nice.

• 45:08Wes Larson?

  Yeah, these ladies are like hardcore. Yeah.

• 45:12Mike Smith?

  That's amazing. It makes me really like judge even more harshly that one guy from the attack story a while ago where he like.

• 45:19Wes Larson?

  Just like stood there and watched for an hour.

• 45:21Mike Smith?

  Coward and he was just a coward's, yeah.

• 45:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 45:25Mike Smith?

  That's wild.

• 45:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah, so Christine immediately turns to her friend on the ground who's missing her scalp and asks her how bad it was. And Anne at this point didn't know the bear was gone. She's so focused on playing dead that all she could respond with was, I'm dead, I'm dead. Which later they both laugh about, because like Anne was like trying to tell her that she was playing dead, but she was saying, I'm dead, I'm dead.

• 45:50Jeff Larson?

  Well, it's kind of an answer to her question too. She said, like, how are you doing? I'm dead.

• 45:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And then what do you say?

• 45:57Jeff Larson?

  You sure you're dead?

• 46:00Wes Larson?

  You sure don't sound dead to me.

• 46:03Mike Smith?

  Sorry to hear that.

• 46:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. So before we finish the story, just quickly, before we talk about how they got to safety, I want to talk a little bit about why this is a weird attack. And for you guys, what's the strangest thing about this whole story?

• 46:19Mike Smith?

  The distance that was in between the bears and the women. Like, it didn't really seem like the cubs or any, there was any kind of threat that they were opposing to this bear, the bear cubs.

• 46:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Exactly. Yep. And that's what it was to me, too. It's this distance. This is a distance, again, where if you see bears, even in the back country, you should feel somewhat safe still. And I think the reason I really like this story is it highlights something about bears, especially females with cubs, about grizzlies, is that you really never know what they're gonna do, you know? They, even at 300 meters, that bear might just decide, I do not like that thing, whatever it is, I'm gonna go check it out. And if it's a threat, I'm gonna neutralize it. And that's why you really do just always have to be prepared in grizzly bear country. Because even when it seems like a perfect scenario to just sit there and enjoy,

• 47:14Wes Larson?

  there still is the chance that that bear is gonna pose a danger to you. This is always potentially a dangerous animal.

• 47:21Jeff Larson?

  It's, it's really strange that it is that far away because it feels like, oh, like I would have enough dis, like, space and time to, like, figure something out. But then it's like, what are you gonna figure out, you know, like? Like, you have like 20, 30 seconds.

• 47:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 47:36Jeff Larson?

  Do what?

• 47:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Jeff Larson?

  Make a gun out of the rocks?

• 47:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And they looked for a tree to climb.

• 47:43Mike Smith?

  That's not a bad idea.

• 47:44Wes Larson?

  They, yeah, they.

• 47:45Jeff Larson?

  I mean, we did it at some point, right? Like, it was just rocks that we.

• 47:50Mike Smith?

  Kinda, yeah. Extracted the metal from, out of the rocks.

• 47:53Jeff Larson?

  Everything we have came out of the earth in some way.

• 47:58Wes Larson?

  But I think, I think the interesting thing here is they really did everything pretty much right where they had their bear spray ready to go. They started running, but then they stopped. They realized that was a bad idea. The one thing they did wrong was like crouching behind this ridge and hiding because it did surprise the bear for a second time. But really, they were like pretty well prepared for this. And it's really strange to me that this happened at such a huge distance. But again, the thing, I don't think there's like a great lesson to pull out of this, aside from the fact that these are unpredictable animals. We can go on and on and on in this podcast about all the things you're supposed to do to stay safe, and you still might run into a bear that acts differently from what

• 48:41Wes Larson?

  we've said. So you just need to be prepared. You need to be sure that you're ready for these kind of encounters. And we're going to talk about a couple of things in a bit that they could have done to be even more prepared than they already were. Okay, so both Anne and Christine have some serious injuries. Anne's head is gushing blood. They both had ripped up arms, legs, torsos. They knew they had to get to help soon, and it's starting to rain. So they're also worried about hypothermia. They're about halfway to the chalet, so they have a choice to make. Their choice is either continue hiking uphill in bad weather across the glacier to get to the chalet and wait for a helicopter, or hike downhill to the truck. So which would you guys do?

• 49:23Jeff Larson?

  Wait, how far?

• 49:24Mike Smith?

  I want to get in that helicopter.

• 49:26Wes Larson?

  They're halfway there. So the distance is the same, but up toward the chalet, it's uphill. They're gonna have to cross the glacier, and it's starting to rain. So up there, it could even be snowing.

• 49:35Jeff Larson?

  Hmm.

• 49:36Wes Larson?

  And then, once they get to the chalet, they have to, yeah, but they're gonna have to call a helicopter to come get them.

• 49:41Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it sounds like going back to the truck.

• 49:43Wes Larson?

  Well, what if you knew the bear went that direction, too?

• 49:47Jeff Larson?

  Towards the truck?

• 49:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 49:49Jeff Larson?

  That doesn't make sense.

• 49:51Wes Larson?

  Why?

• 49:51Jeff Larson?

  Because they were walking on the trail to the chalet, and on the trail, they saw the bear in front of them.

• 49:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Jeff Larson?

  And the cubs were on the other side.

• 50:00Wes Larson?

  I never said that. The cubs could have like worked their way around or something. You never know what the cubs are doing when mom's.

• 50:05Jeff Larson?

  But you understand what I'm saying?

• 50:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Jeff Larson?

  Like, they hadn't gotten to that point where the bears were. So the bears switched, like, the bears moved?

• 50:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah, the cubs just followed their mom.

• 50:15Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 50:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah. The, the bear had gone that direction toward their truck.

• 50:19Jeff Larson?

  I see.

• 50:20Mike Smith?

  You think the bear was trying to get to that same interview? Going that same direction.

• 50:25Wes Larson?

  Would have gone the other way then.

• 50:26Jeff Larson?

  Just interviewed and didn't want her to get the job.

• 50:29Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:30Jeff Larson?

  Single mom, you need.

• 50:32Mike Smith?

  Now, yeah, now it makes sense why she was so mad.

• 50:36Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, but I guess that changes things.

• 50:39Wes Larson?

  It didn't though for them. They decided to go that way regardless. I agree, though. For me, it would have really made me reconsider whether or not I want to go down toward the truck. But for them, they did decide to go that way. They really didn't want to hike uphill. The pain is kind of starting to set in, even though they weren't feeling much pain until then. So they do their best to bandage themselves up with extra clothing, staunch the bleeding, and they start walking and making lots of noise as they make their way down. It's a long, scary hike, but it's one where they kind of let their feelings of camaraderie really overwhelm themselves. They realized they'd saved each other's lives and they knew that this, they weren't going to let this stop them from enjoying their lives and going back out in the wilderness.

• 51:24Wes Larson?

  They really just kind of had this now unspoken bond where they knew they had to live their life to the fullest to honor each other's sacrifices. Because really, especially Anne, she probably could have gotten away without ever a scratch had she decided just to leave the spare to focus on Christine. And Christine could have been a lot better off had she left it to focus on Anne. But they, so they both made some pretty good sacrifices for each other.

• 51:50Mike Smith?

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 51:51Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Multiple times, they almost pass out on their way back down, but they cover ground and they make their way back to the truck. And they're practically shouting the entire time. And they get to the truck and bends down to engage the four-wheel drive hubs on her truck. And a torrent of blood pours out of her rain jacket that had somehow been pooling in like a bend of her jacket and onto the ground. And she's staring at this pool of blood and she suddenly is like, oh, we're in some trouble here. Like, we're both losing a lot of blood.

• 52:23Jeff Larson?

  Much that like affects your mind too, to like see the blood. You're just like, I almost feel like when I see a bunch of blood with a bad injury, that's when like the blood rushes out of my head.

• 52:35Wes Larson?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 52:37Jeff Larson?

  It's like my, my dumb koala brain's like, oh, we gotta send more blood down there. Let's take it out of the brain.

• 52:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 52:46Mike Smith?

  Down there.

• 52:47Wes Larson?

  That used to be in me.

• 52:48Jeff Larson?

  Wherever my opening is.

• 52:50Mike Smith?

  Yeah, okay, I thought you meant, well, whatever.

• 52:53Wes Larson?

  Down there.

• 52:54Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 52:54Wes Larson?

  That'd be weird.

• 52:55Mike Smith?

  Cause you need blood down there for things to work.

• 52:57Wes Larson?

  Weird reaction.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  Coca-Cola, for the big, for the small, the short, and the tall. Peacemakers, risk takers, for the optimists, pessimists, for long distance love. For introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and the doers. For old friends and new. Coca-Cola, for everyone. Pick up some Coca-Cola at a store near you.

• 53:30Mike Smith?

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• 54:51Mike Smith?

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• 55:06Wes Larson?

  All right. So she's staring at this pool of blood. She realizes they really got to get to help quick, but they both only have one good arm at this point. Both of their arms that have been mauled are like in a sling that they had made. So what they decide to do, it's a manual car or a manual truck. Christine is steering and working the clutch with her one good leg. And then Anne is working the stick shift on this five mile dirt road back to the highway. So they're kind of teaming up to drive this truck back.

• 55:35Jeff Larson?

  Cool.

• 55:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Jeff Larson?

  A little difficult, but.

• 55:38Wes Larson?

  It would be. Yeah. But when they get to the highway, there's this work crew that's cutting trees or something on the shoulder and they pull up to a man whose back is to them that's running a chainsaw. And they're both a bit worried that he wouldn't take them seriously or believe their story. But Anne had so.

• 55:54Mike Smith?

  That's crazy.

• 55:55Wes Larson?

  I know.

• 55:57Mike Smith?

  Her scalp is gone.

• 55:59Wes Larson?

  That's the thing. It's like, it's not gone at this point. She had like flopped it back on, you know? So it's just kind of sitting on her head like a wig.

• 56:06Jeff Larson?

  Maybe nowadays where everyone's just doing pranks all the time.

• 56:10Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's true. Just punches them, says you stupid kids. No, but she has so much blood on her face that when this guy turns around and sees them, he immediately runs to get help and to call an ambulance. And the rest of the work crew approaches them to offer their help. And they finally both break down crying because they feel like they've finally gotten to a safe place. While this ambulance is en route, a bunch of people from different organizations and government offices and whatnot, or not offices, but like different officials from wildlife organizations show up and they're thinking, for some reason, they thought that the bear was still nearby, that it had like mauled one of the work crew.

• 56:52Wes Larson?

  And someone asks Anne and Christine if they want them to hunt this bear down. And they both immediately say no. They say this was just a female bear who's protecting her cubs and acting naturally, which again, we've said this before on the show, I really respect when people can that quickly take that kind of opinion. It's impressive.

• 57:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it is.

• 57:14Mike Smith?

  Well, she's probably like, I got it pretty good, too.

• 57:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I put a little bit of pepper on her face.

• 57:20Mike Smith?

  It's nose not feeling good right now.

• 57:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's true. A doctor in the ambulance started sewing them back together, reattached Anne's scalp, which had, again, just kind of been hanging attached by this back flap, like a little wig. And they spent a lot of time in the hospital. I know they were there at least a few days. And while they were there, a woman visited Anne, just this mystery woman that she didn't know who it was when she walked in. It was the owner of the chalet, Miss Timothy Chalet, Mike.

• 57:48Mike Smith?

  Wow.

• 57:48Wes Larson?

  And she'd come, she had come to ask if Anne still wanted the job.

• 57:55Mike Smith?

  Wow. Wow. That's great.

• 57:56Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah. It'd be funny if she was like, if you want it, you gotta hike.

• 58:03Mike Smith?

  Or like, do you want it? And she's like, yeah. And she's like, well, we gave it to someone else.

• 58:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Mike Smith?

  I was hoping, I was hoping you'd say no.

• 58:13Wes Larson?

  Sorry about that bear.

• 58:16Wes Larson?

  So Anne takes the job, and she was gonna start after Christmas. She went back home and recovered. So did Christine. But when Anne went back, she did take the helicopter to get to the chalet.

• 58:27Mike Smith?

  Nice.

• 58:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. And that is that story. I thought it was just kind of a great one for this Bear Month collaboration with Backpacker, because it really highlights, again, the unpredictability of these things, the importance of being prepared, and just kind of how incredible of an experience these things can be for people, you know?

• 58:50Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 58:51Wes Larson?

  Not in a good way.

• 58:51Mike Smith?

  It's weird to say, like, this is my favorite story you've ever told, because it's like terrible things happened to these two women. But like, honestly, I find it really inspiring and heartwarming and wholesome in a way. Like, I think these two ladies are pretty incredible. Really, really cool.

• 59:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I'm glad you like it. I tried to find them. Not, I didn't try very hard, but I couldn't really find anything.

• 59:13Mike Smith?

  Just going door to door?

• 59:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I just started asking. I went in and said, hey, Jesse, do you know Anne Quarterman? And she was like, no. I was like, ah, damn, I tried really hard.

• 59:24Jeff Larson?

  I have a question for you guys.

• 59:26Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 59:27Jeff Larson?

  So let's say like you felt to protect loved ones or family, you've like saw a threat and you needed to like go neutralize that threat, but is 300 yards away.

• 59:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 59:41Jeff Larson?

  Is like a person 300 yards away.

• 59:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 59:44Jeff Larson?

  How would you start running right away and how fast would you start running?

• 59:52Wes Larson?

  I think it depends on how like, how critical it is that I get there right away, you know?

• 59:59Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Wes Larson?

  If it's critical, then yeah.

• 1:00:01Jeff Larson?

  What would you do if you're you and you're that bear?

• 1:00:05Wes Larson?

  Yeah, if I'm that bear, I'm running because I'm good at running.

• 1:00:08Jeff Larson?

  But like you're you.

• 1:00:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I would run out of steam probably.

• 1:00:12Mike Smith?

  Have to take a break halfway.

• 1:00:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:00:17Jeff Larson?

  That's like right at my limit if I'm running like pretty fast.

• 1:00:20Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I'd probably yell first and then start running.

• 1:00:24Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I have a hard time in envisioning a scenario like realistically where this would be the case for me.

• 1:00:32Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it feels like jogging isn't very threatening. But then like if you're sprinting, it's like it's a long way to sprint.

• 1:00:40Mike Smith?

  Yeah, you gotta maybe jog the first half of it.

• 1:00:43Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Jeff Larson?

  I remember when. Or just do like the Mike Myers.

• 1:00:47Wes Larson?

  When I was probably like 11 years old, I remember toilet papering a friend's house that was like about this distance from our house, Gene's house. And as we were doing it, his dad showed up and I started running for home and I felt like I was just flying. Like, I don't think I've ever ran that fast in my life ever again. So I wonder if I had like a threat, if I could, if my adrenaline would kick in, you know?

• 1:01:14Jeff Larson?

  You would not realize how tired you were.

• 1:01:17Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I don't know. What's a movie? I feel like there's movies where you see a threat just coming from like a comically large distance away and the people.

• 1:01:26Mike Smith?

  Oh dude.

• 1:01:26Wes Larson?

  Like Michael Myers is a good one.

• 1:01:28Mike Smith?

  Like the, um, the hunters in Georgia, the jungle when George is running across Africa. That's probably how they felt.

• 1:01:36Jeff Larson?

  There's a bunch of just like Tom Cruise sprinting.

• 1:01:40Mike Smith?

  That's true. Yeah.

• 1:01:42Wes Larson?

  All right. Well, before we go into our categories, do you guys have any other questions or comments about this story?

• 1:01:48Jeff Larson?

  I would just say, I think if you don't have like a weapon, you just like hiking. I feel like a kick to the nose with your like hiking boots is about as good as you can do against a grizzly.

• 1:02:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah, if you feel like you have to fight back, but you probably shouldn't fight back.

• 1:02:07Jeff Larson?

  Right.

• 1:02:07Wes Larson?

  But yeah, if you're like in a predatory attack without a deterrent, sure, a kick to the nose, that's where I'd aim to.

• 1:02:13Jeff Larson?

  Well, just as humans too, like I feel like kicks normally hit a little harder than punches.

• 1:02:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. And when we get to the, we're going to do what would Mike and Jeff do? When we get there, I'm going to talk a little bit more about the bear spray issue here in this story.

• 1:02:28Mike Smith?

  Great.

• 1:02:28Wes Larson?

  Okay. So our first category though, is your favorite movie with two female leads as the main characters. Is it Thelma and Louise, Mike?

• 1:02:38Mike Smith?

  I mean, it, yeah, it has to be. It's Ridley Scott, kind of at the peak of his powers in a way. Like he doesn't, he usually goes for more like sweeping epic kind of period pieces or whatever, but I mean, man, that movie's so good. Probably like the most iconic freeze frame at the end of a movie. Beside a lot, maybe even more than 400 blows at this point, but like just iconic friendship. The two ladies are so tight. They go through so much together and I just think it's a beautiful movie. But if I had to pick a different one, maybe Frances Ha or maybe Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Those two, two women leads are so cool.

• 1:03:13Wes Larson?

  I love when you say more iconic than, and then you say a movie that no one has ever heard.

• 1:03:18Mike Smith?

  Oh, come on. Please.

• 1:03:20Wes Larson?

  400 blows.

• 1:03:21Mike Smith?

  400. Francois Truffaut, everybody knows.

• 1:03:24Jeff Larson?

  Oh, Truffaut. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.

• 1:03:27Mike Smith?

  I mean, I quit.

• 1:03:28Wes Larson?

  All right, Jeff, what's your relatable answer that people can actually?

• 1:03:31Jeff Larson?

  I was gonna say Thelma and Louise.

• 1:03:33Wes Larson?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:03:34Jeff Larson?

  I just, I love that movie.

• 1:03:36Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Jeff Larson?

  If I had to do another one, I can't remember, you'll know her name. Well. It's a show, but I really like Daenerys and uh the girl she was like partnered with, what is her name?

• 1:03:49Wes Larson?

  Oh yeah, uh Daenerys and um shoot, yeah, what is her name?

• 1:03:54Jeff Larson?

  They were good, the power couple.

• 1:03:56Wes Larson?

  The actress is Nathalie Emmanuel.

• 1:04:00Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:04:00Wes Larson?

  But yeah, I forget the, yeah, anyway.

• 1:04:03Mike Smith?

  About Charlie's Angels, Jeff.

• 1:04:05Wes Larson?

  Missandei.

• 1:04:05Mike Smith?

  Charlie's Angels.

• 1:04:07Jeff Larson?

  Clearly three.

• 1:04:08Wes Larson?

  That's more than, yeah, that's more than two.

• 1:04:09Mike Smith?

  That's true.

• 1:04:10Wes Larson?

  Uh, I picked Handmaiden, uh, my favorite. You know, I bring it up a lot on this podcast, but it's my favorite Park Chan Wook movie. I just think it's like so many twists and turns and it's beautiful, violent and erotic. It's just like got a lot of feeling in it.

• 1:04:29Mike Smith?

  Fine line between violence and eroticism.

• 1:04:31Wes Larson?

  There is, and Boyd is, Boyd is that movie, uh, talk a lot about that. It's a great movie.

• 1:04:37Mike Smith?

  I can't believe I didn't think of that. Yeah, that was a great pick.

• 1:04:40Wes Larson?

  All right, let's do what would Mike and Jeff do? Uh, let's say you're at 300 meters or 300 yards essentially, and you got a grizzly bear charging toward you. What are you gonna do?

• 1:04:50Jeff Larson?

  Well, I think in this case where the bear spray didn't really work, like I would try the bear spray. Doesn't work, but there's still some left, right?

• 1:05:00Wes Larson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:00Jeff Larson?

  So I think I would put it on my forearm. I would put the spray on my forearm and then I'd stick my arm out when the bear tries to bite me. So it bites the bear spray.

• 1:05:11Wes Larson?

  Give it some hot sauce for its bite?

• 1:05:13Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:05:15Mike Smith?

  Like Luke in the Return of the Jedi where he lets the rancor grab him and waits till the last moment to put the bone in its mouth?

• 1:05:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 1:05:24Mike Smith?

  It's a good move.

• 1:05:25Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Mike Smith?

  So it gives, this distance gives me enough time to really get into the, the character of being dead. So I'm gonna lay down and try my very hardest to make it look like I am not a threat.

• 1:05:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you can like method act at that point.

• 1:05:41Mike Smith?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:05:42Wes Larson?

  I thought one of you would say like, really time it and jump over the bear.

• 1:05:47Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Wes Larson?

  Like as it's running like they do with cars and stuff.

• 1:05:50Mike Smith?

  That's so cool.

• 1:05:51Jeff Larson?

  Maybe would be cooler than that, even if it's if you sprint at the bear and then jump over it.

• 1:05:58Wes Larson?

  Go right toward it. I like that. Yeah.

• 1:06:01Mike Smith?

  Dude.

• 1:06:01Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 1:06:02Mike Smith?

  If you're trying to play dead, maybe I lay down and I grab like a Sharpie and dry dry X's over my eyes and like my tongue is hanging out of my mouth. Yeah, maybe draw like some blood on my neck or something.

• 1:06:13Wes Larson?

  I like that.

• 1:06:14Jeff Larson?

  It's like one of those things where it's like, I didn't want your cubs, but now guess what?

• 1:06:18Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Jeff Larson?

  I'm coming for them.

• 1:06:20Mike Smith?

  Your cubs are done.

• 1:06:23Wes Larson?

  All right. So quickly, um, Jeff said something in his that obviously this was all in jest, but I do want to say latent bear spray. So like if the product, the capsaicin and oil is just like sitting out there, it actually can be an attractant to a bear. When it's not aerosolized and like in the air, so it goes up their sinuses and their eyes and everything. It's just like on the ground, that oil that the pepper is in can actually be something they're attracted to.

• 1:06:51Jeff Larson?

  Well, then I'd just throw the can into the forest and it would chase it.

• 1:06:55Wes Larson?

  Uh, it probably wouldn't, that probably wouldn't work either. Um, but just so everyone knows, like, it's not like if you spray a bear, it's like suddenly it's going to draw on other bears. It's not that much of an attractant. But they have done studies, Tom did a study with this where they sprayed it on the ground in a really high density bear area, like in Katmai. And the bears did go check out and kind of roll around in the spray and stuff once it was on the ground. So it, it really only works when it's suspended in the air in the bear or like when you spray it right on its face. So a quick thing about what happened here with this bear spray. So we talked about when you should first use it, like 40 to 50 feet is what I would say.

• 1:07:37Wes Larson?

  Then if the bear keeps coming, if it runs through that cloud of spray and keeps coming, then you spray it like directly toward its face when it gets closer to you. What I think happened here again is that they either had mace, like a product that's intended for humans, or they had an expired can of bear spray. So. The thing that I would highlight here is first of all, check your expiration date on your bear spray. There is some wiggle room there. Usually it'll last even a few years after the date, but this product is always kind of constantly losing a little bit of its pressure. From when it's first made, it's going to be just tiny, tiny, tiny little bit of head pressure is going to be losing. So generally, they have about a five-year

• 1:08:22Wes Larson?

  shelf life. The other thing I want to mention is if you're in really high-density bear country, multiple people should have a can of bear spray because there is always the chance that your bear spray fails. It's really low chance, but it does exist. So if I'm hiking by myself in a place like this, I would carry two cans. And if I'm hiking with someone else, I'd make sure we both had a can because you do want to have a backup. So that was the other thing I wanted to bring up.

• 1:08:51Mike Smith?

  Good to know.

• 1:08:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Also, that allows you to help your friend rather than like running up and having to kick the bear like these women had to. Tooth and Claws brought to you by Ollie. A lot of you know, me and Jesse lost our dog last year. It was really hard, but we did get a new dog and we just love her so much. She has so much energy. She's so fun. She's very sweet. And I think for both of us, we just want to make sure that we do everything we can to prolong her life as long as possible.

• 1:09:18Speaker 04

  Coca-Cola. For the big, for the small, the short, and the tall. Peacemakers, risk-takers. For the optimists, pessimists. For long-distance love. For introverts and extroverts. The thinkers and the doers. For old friends and new. Coca-Cola. For everyone. Pick up some Coca-Cola at a store near you.

• 1:09:48Wes Larson?

  And that's why I love to tell you guys about Ollie. Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition in five different delicious flavors, even for the pickiest eaters. And she is a little picky, and I will say, Ollie was really easy for her to transition to. It's made in US kitchens with high-quality, human-grade ingredients. They contain no filler, no preservatives, just real food. And a healthier food really means you're gonna have a happier dog. More energy, shinier coats, better poops, and a longer lifespan, hopefully, because dogs need to live forever. They have some amazing recipes. Her favorite is fresh beef with sweet potatoes, fresh turkey with blueberries. It's definitely a close runner-up. But even the pickiest dogs love Ollie.

• 1:10:32Wes Larson?

  In fact, they are so sure that your dog is gonna love it, that they have a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, they will give you your money back. That's just how sure they are that your pup is gonna love it. It's really easy, too. You just introduce them to your dog, you fill out a 30-second quiz, they create a customized meal plan based on your dog's weight, activity level, and other health info. And then you get a welcome kit, which just has two weeks' worth of meals, a free storage container that makes it really easy, and will give you a really good chance to see if your dog likes Ollie. There's a lot of different meal plans to choose from, so you can choose between a full-fresh plan, a fresh topper plan, a mixed plan. There's lots of different ways you can customize it with supplements and treats.

• 1:11:16Wes Larson?

  And really, dogs just deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to Ollie.com/tooth, tell them all about your dog, and use code TOOTH to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. And again, they have that happiness guarantee, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O-L-L-I-E.com/tooth, and enter code TOOTH to get 60% off your first box. Did you have a question, Mike?

• 1:11:44Mike Smith?

  No, I've just been thinking about how good bears would be on that Hot Ones show. They'd probably get through the hottest sauce, like, no problem.

• 1:11:50Wes Larson?

  I don't think they would flinch.

• 1:11:52Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:54Mike Smith?

  They're like licking licking bear spray off the rocks when it's just like in liquid form.

• 1:12:00Wes Larson?

  All right. Uh.

• 1:12:02Mike Smith?

  Next category. He would have such good questions for bears too. They'd be like, how would you even know to ask that question? If bears could talk is what they would say.

• 1:12:11Wes Larson?

  He's a good interviewer.

• 1:12:12Mike Smith?

  He's so good.

• 1:12:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Yeah. All right.

• 1:12:16Jeff Larson?

  You would you go on hot ones, Wes?

• 1:12:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I'd go on hot ones. I wouldn't be very good.

• 1:12:21Jeff Larson?

  Like, would you eat them all?

• 1:12:22Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but I'd be suffering.

• 1:12:24Mike Smith?

  You think you'd get through all of them?

• 1:12:26Wes Larson?

  I mean, I would try them all, but I would be, I would be in a lot of pain. Like, I'm not. I don't think I'm a total lightweight when it comes to spice, but I'm not good at spice.

• 1:12:36Mike Smith?

  No, sure. Yeah, like, because I I've always wondered if I would even do the hottest of the hot ones. And I think I'm a little more tolerant than you, but.

• 1:12:43Wes Larson?

  I would try it. Yeah.

• 1:12:45Jeff Larson?

  But like, you would try it if you were at like a baseline, but you're already like, have tried for in a row of the hottest hot sauces you've ever had. And now you need to try this.

• 1:12:57Wes Larson?

  But if I'm a hot ones, I'm doing it.

• 1:12:59Jeff Larson?

  Point.

• 1:13:00Wes Larson?

  You know, I'm doing it. Like, I'll say this about myself. I do think I'm kind of a picky eater. But I am an adventurous eater. Like, I will try anything that someone, especially if it's something that's like gross or weird or is gonna like, you know, be a one time opportunity to try it, I will try it. So I, if I was on hot ones, I would try all of them.

• 1:13:21Jeff Larson?

  Hmm. Okay. Be like, hey, so it says here you were modeled with Dior. And you'd be like, how'd you know that?

• 1:13:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Did Jeff make these notes for you? All right. Uh, our next category, just something you recommend this week. Anything from pop culture, from literature, whatever you want to recommend, throw out a recommendation.

• 1:13:43Mike Smith?

  So I'm really pleased to announce that the sequel to one of my favorite games ever made called Fantasy Life is on Nintendo 3DS, the little handheld. It's called Fantasy Life, and it just came out for every platform. And I'm so pleased to report that it's as good as I could have ever hoped it would be. It's just the coziest little charming game. It's really wholesome, really fun. I'm a, my main job is a chef, so I'm just preparing all kinds of little meals for everybody. It's amazing. It's, I'm like, I am doing it justice, but it's like a hard game to sell for what it is. But yeah, it's just like such a fun, funny, wholesome little game. So if anyone's looking for kind of like an Animal Crossing or a Stardew Valley type of thing,

• 1:14:25Mike Smith?

  where you're just having a fun little life, adventuring around, uh, can't go wrong. Fantasy life, I, the girl who stole time.

• 1:14:32Jeff Larson?

  All right. I'm going to go sports. Um, just NBA last night was one of the craziest games ever.

• 1:14:39Mike Smith?

  Really?

• 1:14:40Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, it's the Knicks Pacers. So like the whole city of New York, it's just so hyped right now because like, they haven't had the best sports luck and like the Knicks are legitimately a great team. And growing up, I loved Reggie Miller and he like destroyed the Knicks in the playoffs and did like the iconic joke. Sign it, um, Spike, Spike Lee courtside. So then last night Knicks were like winning game one by like 16 points with four minutes left. They were up by like 12 points with two minutes left and this guy on the Pacers just kept making a three. Every single time they had the ball and the Knicks were even like scoring and stuff.

• 1:15:24Jeff Larson?

  I don't know what happened, but somehow the Pacers had the ball down two with 10 seconds left. Halibur and goes and he goes back and like shoots a three and it hits the back of the rim. Goes like 40 feet in the air and then drops down and goes in. And he does the Reggie Miller like joke sign to everyone, but then it ended up being a two pointer because it was on the line. So they go to overtime, but the Pacers still won, but it's just like the most drama and really fun. And also I just want to say French Open starts in a couple of days.

• 1:15:58Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Jeff Larson?

  And that's my favorite of the tennis tournaments. I think that'll be fun.

• 1:16:02Mike Smith?

  It's great.

• 1:16:04Wes Larson?

  All right, I'm gonna recommend Australian Survivor. I've been, I've been like, yeah, I've been a lifelong Survivor fan and I think this current season of like, of the main Survivor has been like the most boring season I've ever watched in my life. And so I started watching Australian Survivor not long ago and I think it's so much better, more interesting. I just think it's a more compelling show, so I really like it. And the season I'd recommend, if you want to give it a shot, is check out Titans versus Rebels. It was a more recent season. And it's like a really fun one that's not going to spoil any of the other seasons for you. So that's the one I would say to check out. So that's what I'm gonna recommend. Yeah.

• 1:16:49Mike Smith?

  I've never watched a single episode of Survivor. Can you believe that?

• 1:16:52Wes Larson?

  We started like when it started, like season one and then I fell, I fell off. And then during COVID, I got really back into it. Now I, like I have a group of friends and we all text each other and we make bets on Survivor and stuff. It's really fun. Yeah, I still love Survivor, but this season was boring.

• 1:17:10Jeff Larson?

  What Mike said a little, how have you never watched like one episode?

• 1:17:14Mike Smith?

  It's just not something I've ever been curious about or interested in.

• 1:17:19Jeff Larson?

  Do you watch any like reality TV ever?

• 1:17:22Wes Larson?

  He doesn't like competition reality.

• 1:17:23Mike Smith?

  Like when Real World was on.

• 1:17:25Jeff Larson?

  He doesn't even know. Because you have to watch an episode to like even form that opinion.

• 1:17:32Mike Smith?

  Well, I like just through cultural osmosis, you can kind of pick up on like how the show works, the voting off island, all that stuff. I remember the naked guy from season one. That got me a little interested. Wait a minute. This might be, this might be something, but no, just like it never clicked for me. Like, I don't know, my parents.

• 1:17:51Jeff Larson?

  Bait by a shark.

• 1:17:52Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Mike Smith?

  Yeah. It's not like we were disallowed from watching TV, but I was just like, I was always just into cartoons.

• 1:17:59Jeff Larson?

  And video games. You watched the Real World?

• 1:18:02Mike Smith?

  When it was like, as I was cycling through channels, I'd kind of, if there was like a big argument and people were yelling, I'd kind of tune in for a second, but I never really watched anything like that.

• 1:18:12Jeff Larson?

  You've never watched an episode of The Challenge?

• 1:18:14Mike Smith?

  No, I think I actually did once with you guys and that was, that was kind of like in and out. Yeah.

• 1:18:20Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 1:18:21Mike Smith?

  That's fair.

• 1:18:22Wes Larson?

  Okay, the next category is a surprise one. Uh, it's, we're going back to one of my favorites. We're Mike and Jeff paying attention. And there's not going to be too many questions.

• 1:18:33Mike Smith?

  Oh, no.

• 1:18:34Wes Larson?

  Whoever wins, I, we've all kind of been starting, I think at least me and Mike and Jeff, you can start now. I've been starting to collect physical media a little bit more. So whoever wins, I'm gonna send you the 4K Blu-ray disc of your choice. But it can't be like, well, you know, it can be of your choice. So.

• 1:18:55Mike Smith?

  All right.

• 1:18:55Wes Larson?

  Unless it's like a $2,000 one or something. Yeah, uh, we'll put a, we'll put a $60 cap on that.

• 1:19:04Mike Smith?

  Oh, wow. Generous. Okay.

• 1:19:06Wes Larson?

  Okay. Uh, who wants to go first? Any takers?

• 1:19:09Mike Smith?

  I'll go.

• 1:19:11Wes Larson?

  All right. First question.

• 1:19:13Jeff Larson?

  Impatient.

• 1:19:14Mike Smith?

  We were staring each other down. You, we were playing chicken there. You won.

• 1:19:19Wes Larson?

  Mike, what town were Ann and Christine from originally?

• 1:19:23Mike Smith?

  I have no idea, to be honest.

• 1:19:25Wes Larson?

  Jeff, do you have any idea? It's kind of a hard one to start out with. No. Roseland. Roseland was the name of the town. Jeff, who was taller, Ann or Christine?

• 1:19:37Jeff Larson?

  Ann.

• 1:19:38Wes Larson?

  Correct.

• 1:19:39Mike Smith?

  Oh, my gosh. 50/50. That's insane.

• 1:19:41Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Uh, I think you have a 50. You have an easy one too, Mike. Uh, Mike, how many hours had they been hiking when they first saw the bears?

• 1:19:50Mike Smith?

  Did you know that, Jeff, or was that just purely a guess?

• 1:19:54Jeff Larson?

  I, I like worked out, uh, um, a reason to guess that, but it didn't make sense.

• 1:20:00Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 1:20:01Jeff Larson?

  I was like, Ann is the one who got scalped. So maybe she was taller.

• 1:20:11Wes Larson?

  Oh, man.

• 1:20:11Mike Smith?

  Flawless logic. That's so good. Uh, how many hours? I'll say.

• 1:20:17Mike Smith?

  Three.

• 1:20:17Wes Larson?

  Correct.

• 1:20:18Mike Smith?

  Wow, really?

• 1:20:19Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Jeff, how many bears total were in this family?

• 1:20:23Jeff Larson?

  Three.

• 1:20:24Wes Larson?

  Correct.

• 1:20:26Jeff Larson?

  Unless you count the dad.

• 1:20:27Wes Larson?

  I don't count the dad. He's a deadbeat.

• 1:20:31Mike Smith?

  Absent. Went out to get cigarettes.

• 1:20:34Wes Larson?

  What was the name of the glacier near the chalet?

• 1:20:36Mike Smith?

  Uh, the, um, Timothy.

• 1:20:40Wes Larson?

  No. Jeff, do you know that one? Do you want to try and steal?

• 1:20:44Jeff Larson?

  Uh, no.

• 1:20:45Wes Larson?

  Okay. Jeff, what mountains were they?

• 1:20:48Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Wes Larson?

  Sorry, Durand, like Kevin Durand.

• 1:20:51Mike Smith?

  Dude, yeah.

• 1:20:52Jeff Larson?

  You knew that?

• 1:20:55Mike Smith?

  Well, I was saying Durand Durand to myself like for a few minutes.

• 1:20:58Jeff Larson?

  I did do that too.

• 1:20:59Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:00Wes Larson?

  What mountains were they hiking in, Jeff?

• 1:21:03Jeff Larson?

  Um, the Colombian.

• 1:21:07Wes Larson?

  Mike, do you know?

• 1:21:08Mike Smith?

  The Rockies.

• 1:21:10Wes Larson?

  The Selkirk Mountains.

• 1:21:11Mike Smith?

  Nobody knows that. You didn't say that. No one.

• 1:21:14Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 1:21:15Mike Smith?

  It's not real.

• 1:21:16Wes Larson?

  Jeff, what planet is Cassian Andor from? Or what planet was he living on with his adopted mom? You can say either of those and you'll get this answer.

• 1:21:26Jeff Larson?

  Uh, Andor.

• 1:21:28Wes Larson?

  Incorrect.

• 1:21:29Mike Smith?

  That's his name, right?

• 1:21:30Wes Larson?

  Mike?

• 1:21:30Jeff Larson?

  Well, maybe they named it.

• 1:21:32Wes Larson?

  Do you want to try and steal?

• 1:21:34Mike Smith?

  It's like Carrilla or something. Carrion.

• 1:21:37Wes Larson?

  Oh, you're so close. Canary is the planet he's from. Ferrix was the planet they were living on. I would have accepted either of those. Mike, in what year and month was the initial VHS release of Jurassic Park?

• 1:21:51Mike Smith?

  Uh, 94.

• 1:21:54Wes Larson?

  In what month?

• 1:21:55Mike Smith?

  February.

• 1:21:56Wes Larson?

  Oh, so close. Not that close. October of 94.

• 1:22:00Mike Smith?

  Dang.

• 1:22:00Wes Larson?

  All right. Uh, Jeff, you have two. Mike, you have one. We have one. Bonus questions worth 30 points.

• 1:22:08Mike Smith?

  Still in it, baby.

• 1:22:09Wes Larson?

  But I'm gonna give Jeff first crack at it.

• 1:22:11Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:22:12Wes Larson?

  Jeff, what was the name of the tower in Final Destination: Bloodlines?

• 1:22:18Jeff Larson?

  Uh, the, I don't know.

• 1:22:21Wes Larson?

  Mike?

• 1:22:22Mike Smith?

  Skyview?

• 1:22:23Wes Larson?

  Skyview.

• 1:22:26Wes Larson?

  All right. We know Hogwarts rules of play here, so.

• 1:22:30Jeff Larson?

  The worst view of the sky in a tower. You can just see way more ground.

• 1:22:36Mike Smith?

  Don't worry, dude. I'll split the 4K disc with you. I'll just snap it in half.

• 1:22:41Wes Larson?

  Or you can give them the bonus features.

• 1:22:42Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I'll give you the.

• 1:22:45Jeff Larson?

  Well, what you got 31 points and I got two.

• 1:22:48Wes Larson?

  Right.

• 1:22:49Jeff Larson?

  So just give me like, just give me like 115.

• 1:22:53Mike Smith?

  I'll slice a tiny little, yeah.

• 1:22:56Wes Larson?

  All right, let's do some listener questions. Okay, uh, here is a listener question from Brianna. Brianna. Brianna says, I'm looking to travel to see some wildlife this summer. Any recommendations for places within the US that have active wildlife during June or July? Or is it better to wait some time during the rest of the year? Jeff, where's one place that has great wildlife in June?

• 1:23:20Jeff Larson?

  Uh, Yellowstone.

• 1:23:21Wes Larson?

  Yellowstone. Yeah, that's probably the best month to visit Yellowstone, especially early June. So that's a great time. Everglades is a really great wildlife park. Uh, you'll see alligators, you'll see lots of really cool wildlife.

• 1:23:34Jeff Larson?

  That's a better one for like not summer. I feel like the.

• 1:23:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but I still like it in the summer. Yeah.

• 1:23:40Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:23:40Wes Larson?

  But yeah, it's hot. Uh, Yosemite has black bears, some other stuff. Yeah. But I would say if I were to recommend like two wildlife parks, I would say Yellowstone and Everglades would be my two biggest recommendations. All right, this one's for Matty and it's for mostly Mike. Mike, what's your favorite episode of Buffy? I'll answer that one too, but.

• 1:24:03Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, you can't, you can't stay out of that one.

• 1:24:05Mike Smith?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a cliche, cliche, but once more with feelings, just my favorite.

• 1:24:11Wes Larson?

  It's a great.

• 1:24:12Mike Smith?

  Or Hush.

• 1:24:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah, uh, Hush is probably mine, which is the episode with the gentleman, which I think are the scariest antagonists throughout.

• 1:24:20Mike Smith?

  So good.

• 1:24:21Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Okay, let's see.

• 1:24:23Mike Smith?

  You know what's crazy is the ones more.

• 1:24:24Wes Larson?

  What's your favorite episode?

• 1:24:26Mike Smith?

  Yeah, I want to hear this, Jeff.

• 1:24:28Jeff Larson?

  I haven't watched.

• 1:24:29Mike Smith?

  What?

• 1:24:31Wes Larson?

  Glad we did that.

• 1:24:33Mike Smith?

  It's crazy that I know Joss Whedon, he's under some scrutiny for good reason. Like maybe you shouldn't be involved in making stuff anymore. But like for a guy who just didn't really have any classical training and like songwriting or musicals, it's pretty amazing what he was able to accomplish with that episode. Just like a musical episode in the middle of a show that was not musical. It's pretty great.

• 1:24:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And like, I feel like a lot of shows have done that now, but they weren't doing that when he did it.

• 1:25:04Mike Smith?

  It doesn't, I don't think so, yeah.

• 1:25:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah. See, there's another thing you're making me watch.

• 1:25:11Mike Smith?

  What? You gotta watch Buffy, dude. You have to.

• 1:25:14Wes Larson?

  I'm not making you watch Buffy. Oh, so you don't think I should, huh?

• 1:25:17Mike Smith?

  I think you should. I think you'd like it.

• 1:25:20Wes Larson?

  Okay, there you go.

• 1:25:21Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Pressure's on now.

• 1:25:25Wes Larson?

  All right.

• 1:25:26Mike Smith?

  It's crazy how much you're just always trying to get Jeff to watch stuff, Wes.

• 1:25:33Mike Smith?

  It's really inconsiderate.

• 1:25:35Wes Larson?

  Just trying to bring joy into your lives by telling you things that I liked. All right, uh, this one's from Kiana. Kiana says, I've been thinking a lot about bears. You and me both, Kiana. Been a fan since 2021, listened to all the old episodes. Have been listening to Combat, so, have been re-listening to Combat some insomnia and toddler sleep regressions. My question I keep thinking about is why are bear mouths so stinky? I was trying to pick bear related questions. I know their teeth are like other mammal teeth, but do they have rotting teeth? Do they constantly have rotting meat stuck in there? This is so small, but I'm so curious. Love y'all. They can have rotting teeth, like if their tooth breaks or something and it dies, it can rot.

• 1:26:18Wes Larson?

  But really, it's more what you said, the rotting meat. It's more of like the bacteria and whatnot that you get from eating rotten meat. They have like a very healthy amount of bacteria that they use to kind of combat the sickness that they would get from eating those kind of things. There's a lot going on in there. There's probably old rotten meat stuck. Yeah. Because it feels, it doesn't feel like.

• 1:26:43Jeff Larson?

  A lion or a tiger would have as bad a breath as a bear.

• 1:26:47Wes Larson?

  No.

• 1:26:48Jeff Larson?

  And they're always eating meat and bears eat like eighty percent veggies.

• 1:26:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but like grizzly bears especially are have been the smelliest bears that I've had to work with. And by far, the ones that smell the worst and have the worst breath are the ones that are around carcasses. Cause they're eating old rotten meat like tigers and lions are mostly killing things and eating it pretty quickly. Grizzlies will eat stuff that is like just disgusting.

• 1:27:13Jeff Larson?

  Eat like a bush of huckleberries too.

• 1:27:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah, so maybe you get some of that like sweet smell mixed in there too. But yeah, I think it's mostly a combination of what they eat. And the the flora that they already have in their bodies that fight those kind of infections. Lead to like bacteria and a lot of kind of weird smells. So.

• 1:27:35Jeff Larson?

  This is like probably wrong too, but I feel like they have like huge mouths, right? And kind of like a big throat that can swallow big stuff. So maybe like their stomach gases just come out of their mouth a lot more.

• 1:27:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they're super burpy or something.

• 1:27:52Jeff Larson?

  Like there's just a big tunnel from their mouth to their stomach.

• 1:27:56Wes Larson?

  Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. All right. I think that's good for now with listener questions. Uh, maybe we'll do like a Patreon special or we answer a bunch of bear related questions sometime. That sounds fun, but yeah, for now we're gonna move on. And our last main category is about conservation. I briefly just wanted to bring up, there's about fifteen thousand grizzly bears in British Columbia. They're divided into about sixty subpopulations. Uh, the great, the Grizzly Bear Foundation, which is the nonprofit on which I sit the, I sit on the board of directors. They do a lot of work around education and advocacy for grizzly bears in British Columbia.

• 1:28:38Wes Larson?

  And one of the things I really like about this organization is they really try to involve as many indigenous voices as possible in those conservation discussions, which I think is really important. Cause those people have a really strong relationship with these animals. And it's been shown throughout history that indigenous people tend to take care of their land better than anyone else. This group, Grizzly Bear Foundation, was instrumental in the push to ban trophy hunting for grizzlies in British Columbia. They're successful in 2017. You can no longer hunt grizzly bears for trophies in British Columbia. So you can't hunt them at all unless you're indigenous. I really like this organization, especially their focus on indigenous participation.

• 1:29:22Wes Larson?

  So we'll likely do a fundraiser for them as well soon.

• 1:29:25Mike Smith?

  Sweet. Oh, speaking of fundraisers.

• 1:29:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:28Mike Smith?

  Let's shout out our, our audience for helping us reach our goal for Wildlife SOS. It's like, again, like we always, we start these little campaigns hoping for the best and everyone that gets involved and engaged in everything we get up to really just kind of goes above and beyond the call of duty. So.

• 1:29:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Mike Smith?

  Uh, thanks everyone for helping us out. Yeah.

• 1:29:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah. And I think, I think our plan is to do a few more of those and kind of always have that target of around $2,000 that we're going to match. And we'll probably close them after they hit that, that target because we want to make sure that there's enough goodwill for some of these other organizations. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you, everyone. That was really amazing to see. All right. You guys got anything else you want to talk about?

• 1:30:12Jeff Larson?

  I just realized how weirdly named British Columbia is.

• 1:30:19Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:19Jeff Larson?

  It's like part of Canada and it's just called British Columbia.

• 1:30:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah, but it's spelled differently than Columbia or like Columbia in South America.

• 1:30:28Mike Smith?

  It's like Christopher Columbus.

• 1:30:30Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:30Mike Smith?

  Columba.

• 1:30:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:31Jeff Larson?

  Oh, is it because of Columbus?

• 1:30:34Wes Larson?

  I think so, but I'm not sure. Let's look it up.

• 1:30:37Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:30:37Mike Smith?

  Good question.

• 1:30:39Wes Larson?

  Let's just check it out. I always thought it was because of the Columbia River.

• 1:30:43Jeff Larson?

  But like, why they named the Columbia River?

• 1:30:45Mike Smith?

  I don't know. Yeah, it's a whole daisy chain. Goes all the way back.

• 1:30:50Wes Larson?

  I'll look it up. Mike, what was your, what did you want to talk about?

• 1:30:52Mike Smith?

  A couple of things. We're all wearing blue, which I thought is kind of a little bit of synchronicity there. Good job, guys. Also, I would never speed in a school zone. Just want to make that clear. It's a long time ago. I said that I would never, ever, ever do that. And it's not, it's kind of funny to like joke about it. Maybe, maybe it's not even funny, but I would never do that. And neither should you.

• 1:31:10Jeff Larson?

  You know what's weird with me and Mike right now? Like, I don't trust Mike at all.

• 1:31:15Mike Smith?

  You shouldn't.

• 1:31:15Jeff Larson?

  Because I brought up the other day, I was like, I remember like, when I met you, you told me that you threw your sister's phone out of the car window while she was driving because she was texting while driving. And he's like, I never did that. I'm like, I, how did I just make that story?

• 1:31:34Mike Smith?

  I would never do that. It's crazy.

• 1:31:37Jeff Larson?

  I'm like so confused.

• 1:31:39Mike Smith?

  I do have, so as listeners have probably picked up on, sometimes I have a way of delivering jokes and stories like straight faced and kind of understated to where people might not realize. Maybe that's what happened, but I would never, ever do that to my sister. I would, I would tell her to stop, but.

• 1:31:58Wes Larson?

  All right. Are you guys ready for an actual daisy chain that we got really right?

• 1:32:03Mike Smith?

  Oh yeah, let's go.

• 1:32:04Wes Larson?

  The name of the province was chosen by Queen Victoria when the colony of British Columbia became a British colony in 1858. It refers to the Columbia District, which was drained by the Columbia River in southeastern British Columbia. So it was named after the Columbia River. And then ultimately the Columbia in the name British Columbia is derived from the Columbia Reda Viva, which is an American ship, which gave its name to the Columbia River. And the Columbia Reda Viva came from Columbia for the New World, which was named after Columbus.

• 1:32:38Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 1:32:39Mike Smith?

  So, yeah.

• 1:32:40Jeff Larson?

  Layers. We kind of nailed it all.

• 1:32:42Wes Larson?

  We got it.

• 1:32:43Mike Smith?

  You got it. All right.

• 1:32:44Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:45Jeff Larson?

  Wow.

• 1:32:46Mike Smith?

  This is a seven-layer Columbus dip there.

• 1:32:48Wes Larson?

  Uh, I wanted to do a quick shout out for our Patreon. Jeff just did a really fun two-part series on loneliest animals in the world, which was very sad, but also really fun. Uh, Mike, what was your last episode you did on there? It was a good one, too.

• 1:33:02Mike Smith?

  I don't know. Oh, the grasshopper leg.

• 1:33:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Jeff Larson?

  I really liked.

• 1:33:09Wes Larson?

  Different animals that have been used.

• 1:33:11Jeff Larson?

  In the most recent loneliest animal that Coco the gorilla was actually the loneliest animal because it's the only one, she was the only one who could comprehend loneliness.

• 1:33:23Wes Larson?

  Yeah, me and Jeff got in a little argument about that. So you can check it out.

• 1:33:26Jeff Larson?

  Grasshopper leg.

• 1:33:27Wes Larson?

  It was times.

• 1:33:28Mike Smith?

  Murdered. I don't know.

• 1:33:29Wes Larson?

  It was animals that have been like used to help like solve crimes or like animals that had jobs. I think is what we titled.

• 1:33:36Jeff Larson?

  Kind of. Yeah. Ask us favorite pop culture grasshopper, did you?

• 1:33:40Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:40Mike Smith?

  Oh, I should have, huh?

• 1:33:42Jeff Larson?

  There's some, there's some.

• 1:33:42Mike Smith?

  No, that I thought episode had good, good categories though. That's.

• 1:33:47Wes Larson?

  I'm dead really fun ones. And then also something that's going to be coming out on Patreon soon is I'm going to do a quick video that kind of talks about my career, how I got to where I got to with bear biology. And we're just kind of always trying to put fun things on there. So.

• 1:34:03Mike Smith?

  I'm more interested in how you became a Dior model, honestly.

• 1:34:07Wes Larson?

  I'm not going to talk.

• 1:34:07Mike Smith?

  Tell us how you got there.

• 1:34:10Wes Larson?

  Join our Patreon. It's 10 bucks a month. It.

• 1:34:12Jeff Larson?

  How, how safe are bear biologists from AI taking their jobs?

• 1:34:17Wes Larson?

  Uh, probably pretty safe, but uh, who knows? You know, things are going kind of crazy. Uh, 10 bucks a month, you get access to our whole catalog of bonus episodes. You get early access to our episodes and you get to interact with our community, which is really fun. If you just want it in your Apple feed, join the Apple Griz Club. It's very convenient. Essentially the same price.

• 1:34:41Mike Smith?

  And if you have an alternative method of signing up to either of our subscription feeds, try not to do it through the iOS, uh, app shop because they upcharge you a little bit. Apple's doing a new thing. I'm sure.

• 1:34:53Jeff Larson?

  If you're paying 14 bucks a month, there's a way for you to be paying 10 bucks.

• 1:34:58Wes Larson?

  10 bucks.

• 1:34:58Mike Smith?

  Yeah. Yeah. Go down a little bit, but it's worth it. If I, I'll, I'll say that.

• 1:35:02Wes Larson?

  Do it through your browser. Yeah.

• 1:35:04Mike Smith?

  I'd pay $14 if I honestly.

• 1:35:06Wes Larson?

  It's like, that's like less than what popcorn costs at the movie these days, you know? That's wild. It's wild. We're living in a wild world. All right. Thanks, guys. We love ya, and we will talk to you soon. See ya.

• 1:35:19Jeff Larson?

  Love ya.