Pod Insights Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks Bull Shark Attack - Triathlon Chuck and the Big Bull Shark About this episode When Chuck decided it was time to make some life changes, he didn't figure how prominently a bull shark would be featured in them. One early morning workout in the waters off the coast of Alabama was all it took to alter the course of his life forever.
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Transcript 14,954 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Wes Larson? A lot of you already know this, but the girls at National Park After Dark are kind of our best friends in the podcast world. We've just been collaborating with them since almost the beginning. We really like them personally. We love their show. And so we're so excited to announce that we're finally doing a trip with Danielle and Cassie from National Park After Dark. And it's gonna be a really amazing trip. We wanted to go big if we were gonna do a trip together, and we're really going big. We are gonna go to the Svalbard Archipelago, I should have had Jeff say it, but I'm saying it, next June 2027, on an amazing cruise where we hope to see polar bears, walrus, arctic fox, tons of cool birds, and just have an incredible time with some incredible people.
0:43 Wes Larson? Anyone can sign up for this trip, but we are going to offer the link to our Patreon subscribers first. The link will be posted to Patreon sometime this week, and they're gonna have 48 hours to sign up before we then send the link to the rest of our audience. So if this is a trip that you think you'd be really interested in going on, sign up for our Patreon, check it out. You can always cancel it if you don't like it. But if you've been kind of putting that off and you want to go on a trip, this is the week to sign up. Again, it'll be offered to Patreon for 48 hours, and then if there's still spots available, we're gonna offer it to the rest of the audience. We're so excited, we're so stoked. I'm really hoping that we have some incredible polar bear action. I've never seen polar bears in Svalbard. I've never been to Svalbard. Neither of the boys, this
1:28 Wes Larson? is our first time in Norway, just can't really overemphasize how excited we are for this trip. And to finally do a trip with Danielle and Cassie is such a dream. So we can't wait. Check it out. Get on Patreon if you want it, and we'll see you soon.
1:57 Jeff Larson? Hello everyone and welcome back to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We're back to just scrapping by this one. I'm recording in a bathroom. I stole Wes's cord, so he had to go back to our old school setup. And Mike, I don't even know what room you're in, but it's a good room. So we're great.
2:17 Wes Larson? He's in a closet. Looks like you're in a closet at least.
2:20 Mike Smith? It's in one of those beaver rooms where they have like a mudroom. They knock all the mud off their tails or whatever before they go into the main house.
2:28 Wes Larson? Yeah, Japanese people have those too.
2:30 Jeff Larson? Japanese people and beavers. Yeah.
2:32 Wes Larson? Mike, I think humans call those mudrooms. Yeah, I don't think you have to call it a beaver. I think we have that as well.
2:40 Mike Smith? The term slipped my brain. Forgive me. I've been sick for about a week because of the hot dog incident. We won't expound. Listen to our subscriber.
2:50 Wes Larson? We need to expound. What do you mean?
2:54 Wes Larson? I'm gonna expound. We for a while now have been talking about how fast Mike thinks he can eat a hot dog. And he's said anything from like 15 seconds to 30 seconds. So at Disneyland Tokyo.
3:07 Jeff Larson? I was shamed for saying 45 seconds for my.
3:10 Wes Larson? I was with you though, Jeff. I didn't think Mike could do it that fast. And then at Disneyland Tokyo, I bought a hot dog and it seemed like it met the criteria of just like a small.
3:21 Jeff Larson? I would say there's a lot of bread on that dog.
3:24 Wes Larson? There was maybe a slightly, yeah, more bread than normal, but it seemed close enough to give it a shot. And Mike did it in 41 seconds, but it completely wrecked his entire body somehow. So he hasn't been hungry in like a week now. And he's, he's probably really grumpy too, I'm guessing.
3:43 Mike Smith? Because I, no, well, yes, always. I'm like the Hulk in that way. I'm always grumpy. But the thing about the hot dog contest, and I'm still, I consider this bet kind of annulled for the moment because I didn't have water to dunk the bun in. That's so essential. I think I could really get under 30 seconds pretty easy with the water dunk.
4:04 Wes Larson? I feel like I recall a time though, where you said that you could do it in like 20 seconds without water. No problem. Like there was a high level of confidence.
4:12 Mike Smith? That's gonna be really, really hard to ever prove anybody said anything, but I know how we argue and it's this is never gonna end.
4:20 Wes Larson? I know Gerbs on our trip said that he could do it in like 10 seconds.
4:25 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
4:25 Wes Larson? And I do not believe that anymore.
4:27 Jeff Larson? That's quick.
4:28 Wes Larson? A little bit. Yeah, it's way too quick.
4:30 Jeff Larson? He said he's the throat goat though. Self-proclaims, so.
4:36 Wes Larson? We should just quickly say we're back from a trip. We had an amazing time. Quickly just wanted to mention.
4:42 Jeff Larson? We're back?
4:43 Wes Larson? All of, well, you guys aren't back. Sorry, but we're back from a toothy trip. And I just wanted to mention everyone that went. We had Ben, Cassie, Shawnee, Emily, Ian, the three of us, obviously. Gerbs, Alex, Allison, Antoine, Christian, Danielle, Eric, and Lucinda. Truly just an amazing group. It was one of my favorite trips we've done, though. It was super fun. We had an amazing time. Got to be on a dive boat for half of it, in the jungle for the other half. Just a really great group and some cool animals. So, loved it.
5:15 Jeff Larson? It's fun handling venomous snakes.
5:18 Wes Larson? Yeah.
5:19 Jeff Larson? That one secret.
5:20 Wes Larson? The secret.
5:21 Jeff Larson? I was like, I don't know if I should be holding this thing, but I'm going to. And it's like jumping on, it's like us Tom Cruise jumping off that motorcycle jump.
5:32 Wes Larson? Just doing it.
5:33 Jeff Larson? Felt the exact same.
5:35 Wes Larson? It was funny because we had like swirling sharks all around the boat at night. And Ian just jumps into the middle of the sharks, grabs a top 10 most venomous snake. Swims over, hands it to me, and I'm just totally trusting that it's not going to bite me. And then we all of us just kind of took turns, you know, seeing it and holding it on the deck, which was pretty cool. Um, Mike, I do understand now your kind of depression when you got home from Japan last year. It just, it feels like you're living in a strip mall when you get back to the US after being in Japan. It's kind of rough. So.
6:10 Jeff Larson? I miss playing pachinko.
6:12 Wes Larson? Pachinko. I miss all the good food mostly. A warm toilet seat every time you sit down.
6:19 Jeff Larson? One of my favorite little touches here is they always put their toilets in like a little closet room.
6:25 Wes Larson? Oh, that's true.
6:26 Jeff Larson? But then like the bathroom, you don't have toilet stuff going on.
6:30 Wes Larson? Yeah.
6:31 Jeff Larson? You know, poop particles.
6:33 Wes Larson? Yeah. It doesn't make sense to keep your toothbrush and the toilet in the same room. Personally, I think it's.
6:40 Jeff Larson? I agree.
6:40 Wes Larson? Smart to get those two separated.
6:42 Jeff Larson? I don't like poop particles.
6:46 Wes Larson? We got to relive that argument on this trip too, which we'll bring up some other time. Let's get into this episode.
6:53 Jeff Larson? Let's do it.
6:53 Wes Larson? It's one that I'm actually, I'm pretty excited for, even though it's a repeat animal. It's one that we've done a few times, this animal, but um, they're in a group of animals. You know, I'm being coy again, but people have read the title of the episode by now. It's a shark and we just got done diving. Every time I go diving, I just gain more and more appreciation for how beautiful sharks are, how wonderful they are to see underwater, how important they are to their ecosystems and how maligned they are in the public perception. And you know, that whole shark infested water thing still pops up sometimes and it just makes me think that's their home. That's the ocean. It's just waters. You know, it's human infested waters is what it is. And this story for me just kind of is a classic shark attack and
7:38 Wes Larson? it's one that I think illustrates some really interesting things about their behavior. So I'm excited to do it.
7:44 Jeff Larson? I'm excited for you to do it.
7:45 Wes Larson? So Chuck Anderson was born to a father that was a school principal and a high school football coach, and then his mom was also a school teacher. So it really wasn't much of a surprise when he also decided to become a teacher and a coach in 1975. He moved to Robertsdale, Alabama in 1975 and quickly started making a roll tide and quickly started making a difference in young people's lives, both on the football field and in the classroom. I can't really over emphasize how just like kind of good of a dude Chuck seemed to be in his interviews. He just seems like the kind of guy every young kid needs as like a mentor during this time of their lives.
8:26 Jeff Larson? Probably not a good coach, though.
8:28 Wes Larson? I think he was a good coach, but I'm not sure. Everyone called him.
8:32 Jeff Larson? I think in Alabama, if you're putting any importance into the schoolwork, you're not the best.
8:38 Wes Larson? You can't be a good coach too. He did talk a lot more about coaching than he did school. So I do think that was his main focus. Yeah.
8:47 Jeff Larson? Would you rather have this guy or Mr. Miyagi as your childhood mentor?
8:52 Wes Larson? Definitely this guy. Miyagi just seemed like he was having Danielson do chores for him.
8:58 Jeff Larson? Or Coach Boone.
8:59 Wes Larson? Who's Coach Boone? Friday Night Lights?
9:02 Jeff Larson? Remember the Titans.
9:03 Wes Larson? Oh, Coach Boone. Yeah. Miyagi is a little too chaotic. I don't think me and Miyagi have gone along. He did. And it's a sick car. That's true. He's generous. Yeah, maybe it's Miyagi. I don't know. So Chuck has a wife, Betsy, and two kids. They really love the small town community of Robertsdale. And everyone not only knew Chuck, they called him Coach. They knew where he lived and that he kept his keys in his truck and that they could use it if they ever needed it. They just needed to leave a note.
9:31 Jeff Larson? He's like Miyagi.
9:32 Wes Larson? So I mean, this is like a real kind of Norman Rockwell kind of town. Yeah. I'm just gonna start calling him Miyagi for the rest of the story.
9:42 Wes Larson? In the year 2000, Chuck's kids were starting to grow up. His son Sam was 13. His daughter Laura was 15. But while his kids were growing up, Chuck was growing out.
9:54 Jeff Larson? Oh, I thought you were gonna say growing down.
9:58 Wes Larson? He was a Benjamin Button.
10:04 Wes Larson? You see, in Robertsdale, just about everywhere he would go, people were in love with the high school coaches, especially the football coach. So he would get free food everywhere, especially the local buffets. Do you guys know much about southern food?
10:18 Jeff Larson? Oh, I know quite a bit.
10:20 Wes Larson? Enlighten us. How, what's the calorie kind of count in, in most southern food?
10:25 Jeff Larson? In a word, dense.
10:27 Wes Larson? It's very dense. It's very homey and comforting.
10:31 Jeff Larson? I'd say calories don't exist down south.
10:33 Wes Larson? No, no one's counting calories down in Alabama. Yeah, I, I remember I spent a little bit of time in Mobile, which isn't far from here. And I just remember thinking like, everything I've eaten in the last 24 hours is possibly like the most calorie dense food I've ever had in my life, like the homeiest, most comfort food ever. And it was delicious. But it was crazy heavy food.
10:58 Jeff Larson? I remember going to a Waffle House. Where did we go to Waffle House?
11:03 Wes Larson? That was in West Virginia. Yeah.
11:04 Jeff Larson? West Virginia. And it's like, if you didn't. Just get the normal waffles. It was a lot of sugar and butter on there.
11:13 Wes Larson? Yeah, yeah.
11:14 Jeff Larson? Like every other option was just like cinnamon roll on your waffle.
11:19 Wes Larson? Yeah, and that's diet food for Robertsdale, Alabama. Chuck's getting kind of beefy is what I'm trying to say here. He'd gone with his daughter and she was getting a physical and after she stepped off the scale to record her body weight, he stepped on just to see what he was weighing. And the scale tipped to two seventy nine and his daughter told him that he was getting a little fat. So one thing you have to know about Chuck, and this is important to the story, is that he is very competitive. The kind of person where competition just really fuels him. So when his daughter told him he was fat, he immediately told her that he could still outrun her and they drove to the high school track. He said he hit the half mile mark and he was on all fours vomiting because he was so out of shape and she beat him.
12:04 Jeff Larson? Oh, they ran a mile?
12:05 Wes Larson? Yeah, he hit the half mile and started throwing up. So they were just like going for it. Yeah.
12:14 Wes Larson? And that, you know, I, I want to like take a step back and say, I don't think that that necessarily means he was fat, that he weighed that much, but for him it did. This was like outside of his typical weight range. So he needed to make some changes. And for nine straight months, he ran every single day in an effort to get in shape. And he actually got into competitive running because this guy loves competition. And he started running five Ks and ten Ks, half marathons, but what really energized him were triathlons. Do you guys know what a triathlon is?
12:45 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
12:46 Wes Larson? What is it, Jeff?
12:47 Jeff Larson? It's water, land and land.
12:52 Wes Larson? Yes. What are the two lands?
12:53 Jeff Larson? Uh, swimming, cycling and running.
12:56 Wes Larson? It's a combo of swimming, cycling and running and usually swim like a couple of miles and then bike dozens of miles and then run a few. You know, I don't know how many miles, but.
13:06 Mike Smith? You do bring up an interesting point inadvertently there, Jeff. It, the third should be air, right? Like a squirrel suit? Just like the last leg is just bombing down a mountain in a flight suit thing or a hang glider.
13:21 Jeff Larson? Segway.
13:22 Wes Larson? If we're going fifth, if we're going fifth element rules, there would also be fire and love in there too. So you have to do both of those as well.
13:30 Jeff Larson? Is there a way to like work out in the air?
13:34 Wes Larson? That's a good point. Lots of somersaults maybe, just like bicycle kicks.
13:38 Jeff Larson? Well, you said this is about a shark, right?
13:40 Wes Larson? Yeah, we're getting there. So do you know which portion?
13:44 Jeff Larson? You got that joke lined up?
13:46 Wes Larson? What joke?
13:47 Jeff Larson? I think if I competed against a shark in a triathlon, I could win running and it would win swimming. So it all comes down to cycling.
13:59 Mike Smith? You didn't have that joke locked and loaded, Wes?
14:01 Wes Larson? I didn't. Oh, shoot. I did. That really screws up.
14:06 Jeff Larson? I spoiled it.
14:07 Wes Larson? Yeah. Well, the thing that Chuck liked so much about triathlons was that they pushed him really physically and forced him to get in better shape. But they also had this competitive aspect to him. Plus he had found and made friends within the triathlon community. And they helped him train and reach his goals. And for someone who really only gets into working out if I have someone else there with me that's pushing me, I totally understand that. I need that kind of buddy or motivation from someone else to really keep to my goals. So I get how this really fueled Chuck. And it's the thing that he really grasped on to.
14:41 Mike Smith? Yeah, it's impressive. That's like, I mean, if people are comfortable with where they're at physically, then like, by all means, I guess, just do whatever makes you feel best. But like, I really respect people that see a change that needs to be made and go whole hog. Yeah.
14:55 Wes Larson? Yeah. You love going whole hog.
14:58 Mike Smith? The whole hog.
14:59 Wes Larson? You ate that whole hot dog.
15:02 Jeff Larson? Forty seconds.
15:03 Mike Smith? Forty one. With water, twenty.
15:08 Jeff Larson? My timer said forty five.
15:11 Wes Larson? All right, so this is exactly what Chuck was doing on the morning of June ninth, two thousand. He had scheduled triathlon training with two friends. And when his alarm went off that morning at five fifteen AM, he immediately regretted making those plans. It was Friday morning, school had just let out for the summer. He hit the snooze button and just thought, you know, I might just sleep in this morning. But when the alarm went off ten minutes later, the thoughts of disappointing his friends crept into his mind. He got up and started getting ready. Should hit that snooze button again, Chuck. You should have trusted that instinct on this one. The plan was for them to meet at Gulf Shores, which is a short drive from Robertsdale. It's kind of the premier beach in Alabama.
15:53 Wes Larson? If you look at coastal Alabama, it kind of Alabama just gets cut out by a lot of the Florida panhandle. And there's just a little tiny square that has coast and Gulf Shores and Dauphin Island where Christian, who's on our trip is from or is living.
16:08 Jeff Larson? Oh, yeah.
16:09 Wes Larson? Are kind of like the only beachfront in Alabama. There's really not much. So that's where they're going.
16:13 Jeff Larson? A lot.
16:14 Wes Larson? He does, yeah. And I've been to Gulf Shores and it was really nice. It was a nice beach. So they're gonna do a one and a half mile swim in the Gulf of Mexico and a thirty five mile bike ride. One of these friends was Karen Forfer, who is a four time Hawaiian Ironman champion and a five time world champion. She's sixty four. She's a really good swimmer, obviously. And she was a perfect training partner for Chuck because he was really competitive. And that competitive nature didn't want him to let himself lose to a sixty four year old woman. You know, I think he's a bit of a good old boy, too. So like the thought of losing to a woman was down in this male ego of his. But she's a better swimmer than him. So spoiler alert, she beats.
16:59 Jeff Larson? In like a fun way, though, right? They were training together.
17:03 Wes Larson? He totally respects her and like knows that she's a better swimmer than him. But it still makes him like wanna try and beat her.
17:09 Jeff Larson? It's like just the extra motivation. Maybe she leads into it, too. Like you just lost to a girl type.
17:17 Wes Larson? She's she might, but I don't, yeah, I don't feel any need.
17:19 Jeff Larson? Sanwa.
17:20 Wes Larson? Devil's advocate for this. Yeah, maybe she's a good old girl. You ever think of that?
17:25 Jeff Larson? No, I'm not doing devil's advocate. I'm just saying, I'm just making it sound like friendly competition.
17:32 Wes Larson? It was. Yep. All right. Their other friend, Richard Watley, that day decided that he would swim out a little deeper. He wanted to be in calmer water, but Karen and Chuck just swam past the breakers to start their swim. So they're about 100 yards from the beach. The plan was to swim a mile and a half from east to west. And it's still early morning, so they had the water pretty much all to themselves, or so they thought. They were actually sharing the water that morning with a species of shark that many shark experts around the world consider to be the most dangerous shark species, and that shark is the bull shark.
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20:24 Wes Larson? All right, we've talked a lot about sharks on the podcast and the species that represent the greatest threats to humans.
20:32 Wes Larson? And we've gone over the big three a lot. Do either of you remember the species that make up the big three when it comes to bites on humans?
20:41 Jeff Larson? Great white.
20:41 Wes Larson? Number one.
20:42 Jeff Larson? Tiger shark.
20:43 Wes Larson? Number two.
20:44 Jeff Larson? Bull shark.
20:44 Wes Larson? Number three, good job and in order you get bonus points for that. Jack.
20:48 Jeff Larson? Big time. It's different than my.
20:50 Wes Larson? Are you got though, gozaimas? All right. The big three make up about 85% of all known shark bites on humans. And there's some reasons for that. First of all, I think this is probably the number one reason. They are big enough macro predatory sharks. So again, there's bigger sharks than them, but they're mostly eating little things like plankton and krill and small fish. These are macro predators, so they're eating fish and mammals and bigger stuff. They're big enough that we don't automatically size out of the prey that they're typically looking for. It's like when we're diving and we see a white tip reef shark or something. We just know that it's probably not going to come up and try and decide if we're food because we're just too big for it to really bring down anyway.
21:35 Wes Larson? So we're not really in their category, but these three sharks.
21:38 Jeff Larson? This guy, right? What's his name again?
21:41 Wes Larson? Chuck.
21:42 Jeff Larson? Chuck.
21:43 Wes Larson? He's a big boy. Yeah.
21:44 Jeff Larson? Yeah, Chuck's sizing out of a lot of sharks.
21:48 Wes Larson? So that's number one. Second, they have teeth that are designed to cut and shear rather than hold. So if you look at, for example, like a sand tiger shark, you see those really thin conical teeth. They're more for grabbing a fish and just kind of holding it and then swallowing it in one bite. Tiger sharks, bull sharks, great whites have serrated triangular teeth that are used for shearing. So when they bite, they shake their head back and forth. It shears off big chunks of flesh. And that's why they're more dangerous to humans than these sharks that just kind of bite and hold. Third, and this is probably the other one that's most important,
22:27 Wes Larson? is they are found in shallow coastal waters. And people also like to recreate in shallow coastal waters. So we are, these are the sharks we tend to just run into the most too. So even though bull sharks are third on the list, there's a decent chance they're responsible for a lot of bites that are just assigned to uncategorized requiem shark. And that is because the person was bit by a large gray shark, that they were not able to adequately identify the species. Whereas white sharks and tiger sharks have features that often make them more identifiable. So usually when someone's bit by a white shark, they're also in waters where you don't really have tiger sharks or bull sharks. And they just kind of know it was a white shark. And the same
23:10 Wes Larson? often goes for tiger sharks because of the banding patterns and their square face. They're just more identifiable than bull sharks that kind of just look like a classic shark.
23:20 Jeff Larson? Yeah, that makes sense.
23:21 Wes Larson? All right, we've talked about them a fair amount on the podcast, but we're going to do some quick refresher facts. And then we're going to spend a few minutes on something that I think is very interesting that we've kind of just glazed over in the past. They're large requiem sharks, meaning they're in the same group of sharks like gray reef sharks, black tip reef sharks, white tip reef sharks, and oceanic white tips. Requiem sharks are almost always gray on top, white on the bottom. They're just like, again, your classic looking sharks. They're quite large and stocky, with females being a bit larger than males, getting to sizes over 10 feet or three meters long. They have triangular serrated teeth that kind of just look like smaller great white teeth. And they're extremely sharp and effective at cutting through flesh. They
24:04 Wes Larson? often bump before biting. It's a classic bull shark thing where the person will get a big bump by the shark before it then comes in and bites. They're found throughout the world in tropical and subtropical waters and they get their name from their stocky build and their aggressive nature. But one of the things that bull sharks are most well-known for is they're able to live in both saltwater and freshwater environments. We've talked about bull sharks in freshwater and have they've been found hundreds or even thousands of miles upriver, but we haven't gone into a lot of detail on how that's possible. So I want to cover it a bit today. So when we think about skin as humans, our skin is kind of more of like a barrier, like
24:48 Wes Larson? nothing really gets through it unless we really rub it in and kind of let it through. But fish and amphibians have a much more permeable skin. Their skin allows a lot more stuff in and out. And so with fish, osmosis is constantly kind of happening with them. And marine biologists out there are going to get kind of mad at me that I'm going to be oversimplifying a lot of this stuff, but I'm going to dumb it down a little bit because I need it and I think our audience needs it because this is complicated physiological stuff. In osmosis, water is always trying to move from less salty fluids to more salty fluids. So if you were to put like two things of water next to each other, one of them's really
25:30 Wes Larson? salty, one of them's less salty, and then you put a permeable membrane in between those two things, the water would move from the less salty into the more salty until it's all the same. And that's osmosis. The water just kind of moving to create a balanced saltiness between those two bits of water.
25:50 Mike Smith? So all osmosis is determined by the salinity? Like that's always the rule for osmosis?
25:58 Wes Larson? The definition of osmosis is like the movement of water across a permeable or semi-permeable membrane to create like a balanced solute concentration, something like that. I'm kind of paraphrasing a little.
26:10 Mike Smith? Interesting.
26:11 Wes Larson? But basically you are going from more salty or you're going from less salty water to more salty water to try and create a balance.
26:18 Mike Smith? Okay.
26:19 Jeff Larson? That's it. That's good to know. I never watched the movie about that, so.
26:23 Wes Larson? About osmosis, osmosis Jones.
26:25 Mike Smith? Chris Rock's finest.
26:27 Wes Larson? You would understand. Yeah.
26:29 Mike Smith? His vanity project.
26:31 Wes Larson? So I want you guys to focus on that fact, though, that water wants to move from a less salty environment to a more salty environment. That's the direction water is trying to move in osmosis. So in saltwater, the water is often saltier than the body fluids of the fish. So therefore, water is prone to move out of the fish because it's trying to get to the saltier area and into the surrounding water. So this means that saltwater fish have organs and processes that are focused on retaining water and removing salt. Because their water is trying to move out of them into the surrounding atmosphere, into the water.
27:12 Wes Larson? So their bodies are really focused on retaining water and removing the extra salt. Now, the opposite is true with freshwater fish. Because body fluids are saltier than freshwater, water is constantly trying to move into freshwater fish. So they are focused on removing water and retaining salt. So freshwater fish are constantly peeing because they're trying to get rid of water. And they have organs that are trying to keep as much salt as possible in their bodies. Does all making sense so far?
27:42 Mike Smith? Yeah, lots of, yeah, pee, something.
27:46 Wes Larson? So when you put a saltwater fish into a freshwater environment, water is going to be flowing into that fish due to osmosis and its body. But its body is used to conserving water. So because of that, all this water is flowing into them because of osmosis. But then their organs are also keeping water. And so basically, they're, all of their cells and their organs and everything are overloaded with water. And they essentially drown to death. And they have no salt content in their bodies and they die. So that's what happens when you put a freshwater fish, or sorry, a saltwater fish into a freshwater environment. If you put a freshwater fish into a saltwater environment,
28:27 Wes Larson? its body is built to expel water and its water is also trying to escape into the saltier water around it. So it essentially dehydrates while it's still living, while it's suspended in water, which is kind of crazy. So that's what happens to fish when you put them in the opposite environment. So basically, the danger for a bull shark entering freshwater would be that its body, which is used to getting rid of salts and retaining that water, would get, would continue doing that and it would become flooded with too much water. But bull sharks are one of the only types of fish in the world that are able to simply reverse what their body is doing as they switch water types. And they have four organs to help them with that process. The first is their rectal gland.
29:11 Wes Larson? Their rectal gland is responsible for excreting salt. So when they go into freshwater, it simply stops excreting very much salt at all. Their kidneys, when they're in freshwater, their kidneys produce large amounts of highly diluted urine, which allows them to constantly urinate and remove excess water and retain salt. So their kidneys essentially start functioning like a freshwater fish's kidneys would function. Their liver, their liver produces high amounts of urea that lead to a higher concentration of salt in their blood. And then their gills, and it's thought that they can use their gills to uptake sodium and chloride from the water.
29:52 Wes Larson? So basically, the thing that sets bull sharks apart from pretty much every other fish on the planet is that their bodies can actively change the way that they remove and uptake salt. And fish like salmon can change from freshwater to saltwater, actually undergo these really big physiological changes that pretty much kill them. So like when a salmon changes and goes from the saltwater to the freshwater to run upstream to lay its eggs. They're slowly being killed by the freshwater and they had these physiological changes that allow them to survive for a bit. But it's not like a bull shark where they can like thrive in the freshwater.
30:30 Mike Smith? Yeah.
30:31 Jeff Larson? I think so if I ever have kids, it'll be like how a salmon does it.
30:36 Wes Larson? You're just gonna have them and die?
30:38 Jeff Larson? Yeah, just like.
30:40 Wes Larson? Sure.
30:40 Jeff Larson? You know what? It's up to you. It's up to you to make it in this world. I'm out of here.
30:46 Wes Larson? They don't even and male salmon don't even know they're having kids. They're just jizzing on a bunch of rocks. So you can just do that and die if you want.
30:55 Mike Smith? You you don't let your.
30:57 Jeff Larson? Do that.
30:59 Mike Smith? You don't have to let your dreams stay dreams. You can go do that right now. I it's really crazy with like large organs in the body. I just never really think of being like plastic or flexible enough to change really in any discernible manner, but the fact that they can just adapt so drastically is crazy to me. That's so interesting.
31:20 Wes Larson? And part of it too with bull sharks is they have really salty blood to begin with, like they have a really high concentration of urea in their blood to begin with, but that's kind of a hindrance when they're in saltwater. So it's kind of it's pretty amazing. I agree that they have that kind of plasticity because you don't really see that much in the natural world. Animals are usually just built for one kind of environment and these are very hostile environments to each other. Like if you put a freshwater fish in saltwater, it dies and vice versa. So it's pretty crazy that they can do it.
31:52 Jeff Larson? It kind of sounds like Chuck could use this for a halftime speech.
31:56 Wes Larson? He could.
31:57 Jeff Larson? Like.
31:57 Wes Larson? Yeah.
31:58 Jeff Larson? Like, you know, you know what's really built different? A bull shark.
32:03 Wes Larson? Yeah, he probably could. He maybe has since his bite, but we're gonna get into that.
32:09 Jeff Larson? Most built different animal.
32:11 Mike Smith? Ra- arousing speech.
32:13 Wes Larson? I think it's great. Clear eyes kind of thing.
32:15 Jeff Larson? I didn't do the whole speech. I'm yeah, I'm worth dropping.
32:19 Wes Larson? He's yeah, he's spitballing here. Well, none of this really applies to our story because it does just happen in saltwater. But I think it's really cool and it's something we hadn't really gone into about bull sharks yet.
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35:40 Wes Larson? So Chuck and Karen are out swimming about 100 yards from the shore. Chuck is swimming hard to keep up with Karen and they're swimming past an area that included an old pier and some large wood supports in the water. And Jeff, when we were in Maui, we dove or we snorkelled a bit around an old pier with big wooden supports. And what would you say about like the marine life around these kind of structures?
36:06 Jeff Larson? Yeah, that was one of my favorite, just like, let's go dive at this random spot stupid dives ever. It's really good. Lot of animals liked the old piers, lot of sea turtles. Didn't you see a shark?
36:19 Wes Larson? I did.
36:20 Jeff Larson? Or they told us that there'd be sharks in there.
36:23 Wes Larson? I saw a white tip there, I think. But yeah, basically, these piers, these big pillars in the water act as essentially artificial reefs. So they, you know, smaller fish and algae and whatnot grow on them, which attracts small fish, which attracts slightly larger fish, which attracts larger fish, and then brings in sharks and other predators. So it can attract a lot of life. So as they're swimming by this old pier, there's a very good chance that the shark had been hanging out nearby. And as they're going by Chuck takes a look at his Iron Man watch. It says six thirty eight in the morning. He puts his head back in the water. He takes a few more strokes. When suddenly something slams him at full force and spins him through the water.
37:07 Wes Larson? He said it felt like he had been.
37:09 Jeff Larson? Pillars?
37:10 Wes Larson? Could have been one of the pillars. Yeah, we don't know exactly what it was, but I'm pretty sure it was a bull shark. He said, though, it felt like he had been hit by a bulldozer. So it could have been a bulldozer too.
37:21 Jeff Larson? He had half of it, right?
37:23 Wes Larson? Yeah.
37:25 Jeff Larson? Mike, I beat you.
37:27 Mike Smith? Awesome job, Jeff. Thank you.
37:31 Jeff Larson? You weren't just get it as quick.
37:33 Mike Smith? Why am I even on this? I should just leave. Jeff is God is covered on these jokes.
37:37 Wes Larson? Mike.
37:38 Mike Smith? He's so much faster on the draw.
37:40 Wes Larson? He was faster on that one.
37:41 Jeff Larson? You gotta be quicker.
37:42 Mike Smith? God, dang it.
37:45 Jeff Larson? Those are my lines. Those are my lines.
37:50 Jeff Larson? If you want the lines, you gotta say them fast.
37:53 Wes Larson? Fine. Multiple times during the interviews, uh, he gave a really good descriptive analogies for the feeling of the shark slamming into him. So I'm actually going to have Bill cut them together because I think it'll be a good little segment.
38:06 Speaker 05 It was just stunning like a bulldozer running into you. It was like just being hit by a baseball bat. Felt like a linebacker getting run over by a fullback. He just freight train. It was a shark, a bull shark.
38:20 Wes Larson? He immediately knew it was a shark and before he could really comprehend what was happening. The shark was rolling him over on his back and almost up and out of the water. Then the shark disappeared. Chuck started screaming and treading water. He yelled at Karen to get out of the water and swim for the beach. And when she heard him, she did exactly that. And just a quick reminder here, people, if you are with someone in the water and they do get bit by a shark, the best thing you can do is try and help them. There's a good chance that your presence will be enough to scare off that shark. A very good chance. There is a chance you'll get bit too. So you do need to accept that. It requires a lot of bravery. To swim at someone that's being bitten by a shark.
39:03 Jeff Larson? Sure.
39:04 Wes Larson? But it most likely will stop that attack.
39:06 Jeff Larson? You've said that a few times, but this is the first time I've ever wondered this. So like, what about if a shark attacked like a sea lion? Would it be smart for other sea lions to swim up?
39:18 Wes Larson? It is. Yeah. And they can often stop the attack from happening. Like a group of sea lions or seals is often enough to discourage. Even white sharks from.
39:27 Jeff Larson? Well, if I saw a sea lion getting attacked and swim up.
39:32 Wes Larson? Probably, honestly, it'd probably stop it. But again, they're like, I wouldn't do that because there is a chance the shark will bite you. And I don't blame Karen for swimming away because she probably.
39:43 Jeff Larson? But you would do it for a person.
39:44 Wes Larson? I would, I think. I'd like.
39:46 Jeff Larson? Shows where your priorities are. I view animals the same.
39:50 Wes Larson? Yeah, you I don't, but that's, we've talked about this before on the podcast. I love animals more than anything, but. I think people's lives are generally more important. Um, all right. So Chuck was panicked. He's looking over the surface of the water with his goggles still on. And then he plunges his head underwater to see if he could see anything. And he did see something. What he saw was the shark racing up from the bottom toward him and just a few feet away.
40:17 Wes Larson? The shark slammed into him again so hard that he could barely think or even breathe. And he instinctively threw his hands out in front of him to try and push the shark away. He felt a strong tug on his right hand. And then when he started trying to swim backward away from the shark, he noticed red spreading out. From his body in a pool. He raised his right hand and stared at it in shock. The shark had completely severed all of his fingers in a single bite. And he could see the milky gray of his knuckles sticking out of the flesh. Only his thumb remained on his mangled hand, just his thumb. And he continued to stare in shock at it as he wiggled his thumb to make sure it was still there.
40:58 Wes Larson? Uh, he felt no pain whatsoever. So the whole thing felt very dreamlike to him. And that's why he was wiggling his thumb. With all the blood in the water, he started worrying that he might be attracting more sharks. So he held his mangled hand out of the water, did his best to backpedal toward the beach. He's making slow progress with only one hand, and it felt as though he had struggled forever. When he stuck his head under the water one more time at the exact moment that the shark made another charge and rammed into his thighs. Now, one thing I just wanted to talk about really quick here, hearing his story, this shark keeps just slamming into him and not necessarily biting. And I do think there's a fairly good chance that we're dealing with a territorial attack here.
41:44 Wes Larson? That this bull shark was just pissed at him, that he was upset with the intrusion, and that it's just ramming him and trying to get him out of there. I don't think this is an inquisitive shark that's biting to figure out what he is. I think this is either a shark that's just pissed off, or one that is in full predator mode. It's one of the two. But the fact that it's not biting him and it's continually ramming him without biting, I do think really, when he gets bit, it's always because he's pushing it. I think it's a good chance this is just a shark that's being territorial, and that does happen with bull sharks.
42:19 Mike Smith? Maybe it just doesn't want to leave the job undone. Get that thumb, you know?
42:23 Wes Larson? Yeah.
42:26 Mike Smith? Five for five for five. We talk about how opposable thumbs are like something that sets us apart from a lot of animals. What gets an opposable thumb without your other fingers? That's pretty deep. Think about that.
42:37 Wes Larson? You can give someone a big old thumb.
42:39 Jeff Larson? Or how dangerous, how dangerous is a shark with five fingers?
42:45 Mike Smith? That's true.
42:46 Wes Larson? One opposable thumb. Like a Frankenstein thing or Buffalo Bill. Maybe it's making a whole human jacket down there.
42:52 Jeff Larson? I will say too, to.
42:54 Wes Larson? Tucking its penis.
42:55 Jeff Larson? Help paint the picture a little.
42:59 Mike Smith? I'm glad you snuck in that last detail.
43:01 Jeff Larson? Talking a Christian, talking a Christian about the ocean out there. It isn't like the best clarity either. So it'd be kind of scary just to like not be able to see it that well.
43:13 Wes Larson? I took some time to look at a bunch of satellite images because I thought of that too, Jeff. And I think where he was 100 yards out past the breakers, he probably had a bit of visibility.
43:26 Jeff Larson? Okay.
43:26 Wes Larson? And I've been to Gulf Shores and I do remember that if you swam out a bit, it started to get like a little bit clearer. But it's not by any means like clear, good visibility water. It still is murky. So.
43:38 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
43:38 Wes Larson? Yeah. And that's part of probably what led to this encounter, almost certainly. And we're going to talk again briefly at the end of this about the factors surrounding bull shark bites specifically, but that's a really good observation.
43:52 Wes Larson? So after the shark slammed into him again, you're welcome. The sharks again swam off and left Chuck screaming for help and ducking his head underwater to check for the shark. The shark meanwhile had mounted another charge and this time slammed into Chuck's stomach, knocking the air out of him. He pushed the shark away with his hands. Yep. Cheap shot.
44:12 Jeff Larson? Hate that.
44:12 Wes Larson? Pushed the shark away with his hands. It swam off, but when Chuck turned around to look for it, he saw the dorsal fin of the shark slicing through the water and heading straight toward him. He tried to push off the shark, but in one quick movement, it bit into his right forearm and dragged him down below the surface of the water. For some reason, the shark pulled him all the way down to the seafloor and his shoulders slammed into the sand. He was already short on breath just from fighting the shark. So like, you know, if you've ever been like roughhousing in a pool and then someone holds your head underwater, in like three seconds, you feel like you're about to drown because you just don't have any air in your lungs.
44:53 Wes Larson? And that's kind of how Chuck was like immediately. He felt like he was drowning. He couldn't see much because his goggles had gotten pulled off. And as the shark held him on the seafloor, he's surrounded by just eerie silence. And he feels death coming and he starts seeing images of his family and his kids flashing through his mind. He makes a promise to God that if he gets one more breath, he'll like praise God every single day. And as he thinks about that, he actually feels himself being lifted up toward the surface once again. The shark drags him upward and he breaks the surface of the water and takes a huge gasp of air. So he owes him. He owes God.
45:34 Mike Smith? Every day.
45:35 Wes Larson? Yeah. Yeah. Chuck felt like he had been saved, but then he realized his right arm was still in the shark's mouth. He started fighting the shark and just focusing on staying on the surface because he wasn't sure he would survive another trip to the bottom. But as he fought, the shark started swimming with him in tow once again. This time it stayed on the surface and it seemed to be dragging him out into deeper water and further from the beach.
46:00 Jeff Larson? Oh, he might be able to set like a personal record with the shark's help.
46:05 Wes Larson? He's like swim faster than Karen.
46:07 Mike Smith? Shark assisted record. It's like, you know, when like long jumps have like the wind assisted little asterisk next to it.
46:16 Jeff Larson? It's like Mike eating a hot dog. It's like Mike eating a hot dog, but he uses a shark to help him eat it. It's like it's in like two seconds.
46:24 Mike Smith? Oh, my God.
46:25 Wes Larson? Probably can't eat a hot dog hella fast and it won't make them sick for a freaking week afterward.
46:30 Mike Smith? That bread is gonna get stuck in their little throats.
46:35 Wes Larson? A crazy thing about this beach, though, is there are big sandbars way out in the water. So Chuck is feeling just intense pain and pressure in his right arm as the shark continues to drag him about seventy five yards. But then miraculously, his feet hit sand and he realized that the shark had dragged him up onto a sandbar and had effectively beached itself on top of him. So he's kind of pinned now between the sand and the body of the shark. And he could feel the entire weight of this probably three hundred pound shark pushing down onto him. He does his best to squirm out from under the shark and he's punching at it in the gills with his left arm and doing whatever he could to get away. He also finally gets his best look at the shark and he looks into his eyes.
47:20 Wes Larson? And in interviews, he said the eyes were emotionless and blank, like there was nothing looking back at him. And I know that what he meant by this was like this was a thoughtless murderous kind of killer. But I actually love it when people say this about animals. Because what it actually means is that there isn't any emotion in this. This is an animal that is just eating or, you know, trying to get rid of a threat. You know, there's no hate in it. There's no murderous intent. It's either just trying to feed itself or get rid of you. And that to me is a beautiful thing. It's not a bad thing.
47:57 Jeff Larson? What do you expect its eyes to like show that it's feel sorry for you?
48:02 Wes Larson? Right. Or that it's like super pissed at you. Yeah.
48:06 Jeff Larson? That's almost worse if it's mad at you.
48:08 Wes Larson? I think the Quint thing, you know, where he says like a doll's eyes, a dark black doll's eyes. It's kind of like, yeah, this is an animal. It's its natural history. It's doing animal stuff. You're in its environment and it's reacting. And I think that's
48:23 Jeff Larson? You know, it's
48:23 Wes Larson? that's great.
48:24 Jeff Larson? You know, it's unique about this story. It might be like the best example I've ever heard of of like a fair fight of a human versus shark.
48:33 Wes Larson? Yeah, he's doing a good job.
48:34 Jeff Larson? Cause like half on the water and then half on land. So it's like, ah, you get a chance to beat me on your territory, but then like, let's go to my turf and see what happens.
48:45 Wes Larson? Yeah, maybe when the shark was drowning him, it was like, you know what? This isn't fair. I'm gonna take you back up to the surface. Chuck loves competition. Yep.
48:54 Jeff Larson? Respect.
48:55 Wes Larson? So Chuck actually gets to his knees in the sand. He continues to hit the shark with his left arm because it still has his right arm in its mouth. He pulls back with his right arm to try and free it. And as he does this, the shark actually like thrashes and pulls to the left and the teeth strip down his right arm. Blood fills the water. Once again, Chuck feels a slight tug and then he falls backwards and he's free. He immediately gets up and he starts running down the sandbar toward the beach screaming, "You're not taking me away from my kids, you damn shark. You're not taking me away from my kids."
49:32 Jeff Larson? See, that's a big mistake. That's where he finally has the advantage to beat the shark in the fight. Like elbow drop right there. The shark's vulnerable. Yeah. Gut punch the shark, knock the wind out of that thing. See how it likes.
49:49 Wes Larson? Well, the shark got away. So this is a draw, I think. Nah, actually, I give this one to the shark and you're about to see why. As he runs down the sandbar and toward the beach, he purposely isn't looking at his right arm, but he could feel the blood running down his arm and onto his chest. He then sees Karen come running toward him crying with a shocked look on her face. And as she approaches Chuck, she says, "Oh my gosh, you don't have an arm." The shark had completely removed Chuck's arm from the elbow down.
50:20 Wes Larson? They walked up the beach. They could already hear the sirens of the approaching ambulance and Chuck could hear and see people vomiting as they saw the remains of his tattered arm. Which guys, you gotta hold it in. He can't vomit in front of this guy. As he gets loaded into the ambulance, Chuck was told they couldn't scramble a helicopter in time. They would take him to the nearest hospital, which was in a town called Foley. And he immediately thought about how this town was like full of his rivals because they had beaten Foley in football. And how people were not going to be happy to see him there. So he was joking with the paramedics saying like, not Foley. Don't take me to Foley.
50:59 Jeff Larson? What a coach.
51:01 Wes Larson? Yeah.
51:01 Jeff Larson? I take it back all the way. He's a great football coach.
51:04 Wes Larson? He is. On the ambulance ride, they also discovered that he had been bitten in the stomach. He was losing a lot of blood, but he refuses any medicine that would make him unconscious because he really wanted to see his kids. In case he did die and he had not said, I love you to them that morning and he usually did. And so he really just wanted to see them and tell them, I love you one last time. He does see his family at the hospital. He tells them he loves them and then he immediately asked the nurse for morphine. And then he doesn't really remember the next five or six days, but the doctors did do multiple surgeries. They managed to save his elbow, which apparently makes a huge difference if you lose your arm to have your elbow because it's really good for like propping
51:47 Wes Larson? and pushing yourself up and whatnot. It's important if you can keep your elbow. So that was a big win for Chuck. And pretty much this whole town came to see him at some point. A couple of people joked that they would probably be able to beat him in a triathlon now. Because he wouldn't be able to swim very well. And you know, that lit a bit of a fire under old Chuck. Made him feel really competitive and he made up his mind that he was gonna, he was gonna keep training. So the following year, he competed in a triathlon and when all the contestants lined up in the water, Chuck got pretty scared. He considered getting out of the water because it was really his first time in saltwater. But then those competitive juices kicked in and when the countdown got down to two, he yelled shark.
52:32 Wes Larson? And everyone got really scared. And when it hit one, he had a bit of a head start on everyone because they were all looking around for a shark. And he actually ended up winning first in his division for that race.
52:44 Jeff Larson? What?
52:45 Mike Smith? No way.
52:46 Wes Larson? Just a great dude. One of the things I liked most about Chuck, though, was the attitude he took toward sharks and shark attacks following his encounter. He actually went to Washington DC to lobby for increased protections for sharks. When he learned they're being killed at a massive scale for finning and as bycatch. He's also reached out to a lot of other shark bite victims as as like recently as this last year. To provide support and compassion to them as they go through the most traumatic experience of their lives. Basically, just a really good person that made the most out of a really terrible day that changed his life forever.
53:23 Jeff Larson? That's amazing. So. Was the hand that got or the arm that got bit off the same one as the fingers? So his other hand's still intact?
53:34 Wes Larson? Totally normal from what I know. Yeah.
53:36 Jeff Larson? Oh, nice. That's good.
53:37 Wes Larson? Yeah. Yep. Um, so really quickly, I learned a bit about bull sharks on this episode, and I just wanted to remind our listeners. Conditions to kind of avoid. If you are in a place where there are bull sharks. Uh, first of all, time of day is really important. Uh, sharks like to be out hunting early morning or in the late evening. Uh, a big part of that is because your water visibility gets a lot less and it's easier for them to sneak up on things, including fish. So they really like to be hunting in decreased water visibility. So another thing to really look out for. Is like high turbidity or murkiness in water. So if you have like a big storm. And a ton of water has pushed out through rivers and sewers and whatnot.
54:23 Wes Larson? What that water does is wash out tons of little scraps for fish to feed on. So big schools of little fish will kind of move in closer to shore. When that happens and the sharks will follow them in too. And it also makes it harder for them to identify what they're about to bite. So really, that's the perfect storm. For shark bites. So if you ever have really murky conditions in a place that might have bull sharks. You should be extra cautious and really consider whether or not it's worth getting in the water. One other thing I learned is that increases in temperature in water can also lead to a lot of attacks. So Australia's had a big spate of recent bull shark attacks and they think it's because there was actually a lot of water, like a lot of rain that pushed out a lot of this kind
55:06 Wes Larson? of murky water. And then also, the water's been like two degrees Celsius warmer than average. And what that does is increases the metabolism of these sharks and they have to hunt and look for food a little bit more aggressively. So they think that might be part of what's led to this little spate of attacks in Australia. All right. Any questions about the story or about bull sharks?
55:29 Jeff Larson? It'd be like, you know how coaches, when they're like in hot water, always do like, make big changes to try to keep their job, like they'll fire their offensive coordinator, or they'll get a new quarterback, or they'll just like change it up so they can keep their job a couple more years?
55:48 Wes Larson? Yeah.
55:49 Jeff Larson? This is kind of a good like hack, like, who's like, um, who's a coach, like Brian Dayball got fired from the New York Giants this year?
56:02 Jeff Larson? But like, imagine he gets his arm bit off by a shark and then they fire him right after? People would be pissed.
56:08 Wes Larson? Yeah.
56:09 Jeff Larson? So that's a good point. Kind of a good.
56:11 Wes Larson? I'm worried about losing the job. Go get mauled by an animal.
56:15 Mike Smith? I think the people of New York would be like, he's even more unfit for the job now. They're merciless up there.
56:20 Wes Larson? That's true.
56:21 Mike Smith? Or at least the New York media.
56:23 Wes Larson? Uh, yeah. Life hack from Jeff, though. Everyone write that down. Maybe like,
56:27 Jeff Larson? I think it buys you a year or two.
56:30 Wes Larson? If your partner's mad at you, like just go get mauled by a bear and then they kind of have to feel bad for you, you know, that sort of thing.
56:36 Jeff Larson? Can't break up with you right after that.
56:39 Wes Larson? Nope.
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57:38 Wes Larson? You know what? The other day Jeff was wearing some corduroy pants that I really liked, and I asked him where he got them, and he said Quince. And then, just literally a few minutes later, he asked me where I got my sunglasses, and I said Quince. And I really like that, that we're finding really cool stuff that we really like at Quince. And the thing I like so much about Quince is that getting a good wardrobe that will stand the test of time doesn't have to break the bank. They have premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that are easy to wear, easy to rely on, and much cheaper than buying from luxury brands. They really have everything that I would want in my wardrobe. Stuff like cotton sweaters, lighter jackets, really cool sunglasses, corduroy pants, the list goes on and on and on.
58:21 Wes Larson? And they work directly with top factories that cut out the middlemen, so you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing. And I have really been impressed with how well-made everything seems. I feel like this is clothing that's gonna last a really long time, and we all know the problems with fast fashion, so I'm really excited that we get to partner with Quince. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/tooth for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. They have tons of options, I know you guys are gonna find something good, and now they're available in Canada too. So that's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash tooth. Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash tooth.
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59:49 Mike Smith? These sheets help keep you in the comfort zone all night long. So upgrade your sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com/tooth to try Miracle Made Sheets today. You'll save over 40% and when you use promo code TOOTH, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three-piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30-day money-back guarantee, there's no risk. That's trymiracle.com/tooth. Code TOOTH at checkout. Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. All right, we're gonna go to categories. First category is your favorite pop culture involving Alabama. Roll tide.
1:00:26 Jeff Larson? I'm gonna go with a classic. I'm going Forrest Gump.
1:00:29 Mike Smith? Oh, that's a good pick. It's a good pick, Jeff.
1:00:32 Jeff Larson? And he, he covers like the things you would want from Alabama. It's honestly probably my first real like, I'm in Alabama experience in my life. Like the big old trees, what are those types of trees?
1:00:47 Mike Smith? Cypress trees, yeah.
1:00:49 Jeff Larson? Cypress trees and like, it's like, oh, Alabama has some cool stuff actually. And then watching them run, the football was funny.
1:00:58 Mike Smith? When he's shrimping, is he shrimping in Alabama?
1:01:01 Jeff Larson? I think so.
1:01:03 Mike Smith? Yeah, tramp. I'm gonna go with a movie too. I so I always feel compelled. I'm not gonna say anything about Forrest Gump. Like it. You can like it if you want. It's great. Good for you, all you guys. I'm gonna go with another
1:01:17 Wes Larson? I'm in the same boat.
1:01:18 Mike Smith? Movie, a double feature, actually, a couple of real classic courtroom dramas versus To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't think we really say a whole lot about why that's a pretty nifty little story. Thanks, Harper Lee. And then My Cousin Vinny also happens in Alabama and
1:01:34 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:01:34 Mike Smith? You know, I think I might like that movie even more. So sue me. Joe Pesci, Gregory Peck, take your pick, which is the sexier of the two.
1:01:44 Wes Larson? I kind of thought one of you would pick True Romance because Patricia Arquette's character is named Alabama in that one.
1:01:51 Mike Smith? That's a good pick. Shoot.
1:01:53 Wes Larson? I picked, I picked Con Air, uh, because he's trying to get home to Alabama and Con Air. That's where his
1:01:59 Mike Smith? Pat Reeves. I thought it was Georgia for some reason, but that's even better somehow.
1:02:03 Wes Larson? I somehow remembered that because I was like, was his name Alabama? And then I looked it up and I was like, no, he's just trying to get home to Alabama. So Con Air, perfect movie, you know?
1:02:14 Mike Smith? You know what?
1:02:15 Wes Larson? Probably my favorite Nick Cage movie, besides Raising Arizona.
1:02:18 Mike Smith? I just shouldn't ever give anyone any guff for liking Forrest Gump when I ride as hard as I do for Con Air and The Rock.
1:02:27 Wes Larson? I think Forrest, I think Forrest Gump's like a great movie. I just kind of don't like it anymore. But I do think, I don't think it's a bad movie personally.
1:02:36 Mike Smith? Sure.
1:02:36 Wes Larson? I just kind of got tired of it.
1:02:37 Jeff Larson? Where it's like people's favorite movie, it won the Oscar, stuff like that. It's like, that's a little much, maybe.
1:02:43 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:02:44 Jeff Larson? But it's, I don't know. It's fun.
1:02:47 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:02:48 Jeff Larson? It's like a good, if I was a history teacher, I would show my kids that. Be like, this is what happened.
1:02:54 Wes Larson? If you like are a little hungover or something, you don't want to teach that day. Just put on Forrest Gump for the 10th time that semester. Uh, all right. Next category, something you do that is needlessly competitive. We're all three competitive boys here on Tooth and Claw, but I'm kind of, I'm reaching for something that you do. That's kind of like, why am I being competitive about this?
1:03:16 Mike Smith? I get really competitive when we're out eating and ordering food. I always try to find what looks like the best thing and I get that. And if anybody else orders that same item, I have to change my order. It really bothers me to like, not be alone at the top of the mountain.
1:03:32 Jeff Larson? That's a good one.
1:03:33 Mike Smith? And it really is stupid. Like it's really dumb that I do that because I want it so bad, but I will change my order.
1:03:40 Jeff Larson? I actually think you're kind of good at it too. You're the number one person who if I'm out to eat with them, it's like, oh man, I'd love to try a bite of what Mike just ordered. Cause you always find something that's not like front and center on the menu.
1:03:57 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:03:58 Jeff Larson? So yeah, I think you're excelling at that. Um, just yesterday, me and cousin Brent were fighting quite a bit about Apple Maps versus the car navigation. He put in his car.
1:04:12 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:04:13 Jeff Larson? And I was just saying, Apple Maps routes are better. And he was like, he was being kind of dumb because he kept asking me to navigate and then not following my map. And then getting mad at me for the road we were on. It's just like, I don't know. And like every, there's like 10 feet of snow out here. And he was saying I led him on a road with snow and there's literally every road had snow on. I was like, I, I don't know what to tell you, but I did take him on one road that was like impossible to get up.
1:04:51 Jeff Larson? We had to turn around on that one. So it was a, it was like a, I've been saying, Apple Maps is the best type of thing though. And it's like, I don't care about that at all.
1:05:02 Wes Larson? Right.
1:05:04 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:05:05 Wes Larson? Mine is one that I do pretty much every road trip I take, but I'll kind of like decide on a time that I think I can make it to my destination. And then even if I have no time crunch, if there's nothing like pushing me to be there at that time. I'll push myself and I'll really like take quick stops and I'll like get super drowsy and just keep driving because I'm like, I gotta be there by five. And sometimes I catch myself and I'm like, wait, I don't have to be there by five. I can take a little nap. I can do whatever. But I get this like competitive spirit with this weird benchmark that I just set for myself. Um, and I do that a lot on road trips and I'm trying to actually work on that because it's stupid.
1:05:47 Jeff Larson? You know what's kinda like that that you did? The first time I ever went to San Diego with you. It's like the first time we had ever used the city scooters and is really fun, but then mine didn't have much battery left. And we had to like make it up this super big hill to go back to the house we were staying at. And you were like, no, don't stop. Like it'll be fun to see if you can make it or not. I was like, I don't want to do that. That doesn't sound fun to me. I just want to find a new scooter with battery. And then you ended up taking mine because you wanted to see if it would make it so bad.
1:06:23 Wes Larson? I do that with running out of gas in my car too. Like if I'm on empty, I'll just be like, I gotta see if I can make it. And Jesse also gets so mad at me.
1:06:33 Jeff Larson? When you like didn't have much money at all, you would be on empty ninety percent of the time.
1:06:40 Wes Larson? I lived on empty. Yeah.
1:06:43 Mike Smith? This stresses me out.
1:06:45 Wes Larson? Yeah, it stressed me out.
1:06:46 Jeff Larson? And we'd like go by gas, gas stations with you on empty and you'd be like, I think I can make it.
1:06:52 Wes Larson? I think I got it.
1:06:57 Wes Larson? All right, a quick category here. Your favorite thing that we saw in Indonesia. Go ahead and do favorite three, actually. That's what I told you guys earlier, I think. My top three were the blue insularis viper, just a beautiful blue snake that I had always wanted to see since I learned they existed. Maybe my top reptile target ever. So it's really exciting to see that. Komodo dragons, because as a kid, they were my favorite animal for a while. Just think they're amazing, cool lizards, even though they mostly just lay around. They're so cool. And we got one that like perfectly looked over the water that was just really neat. Same with the blue viper, actually. And then the manta rays. We, we had just an amazing manta ray experience because because of some bad weather, we had the park mostly to ourselves.
1:07:43 Wes Larson? And the mantas just were swimming around us and it was so beautiful and peaceful. So those are my top three.
1:07:49 Mike Smith? Those are my three as well. So.
1:07:51 Jeff Larson? Good category to go first time.
1:07:53 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:07:55 Jeff Larson? It's like the big three.
1:07:56 Wes Larson? Well, I thought maybe the crate would make yours.
1:07:59 Jeff Larson? I would say sea crate over the blue insularis for me. Especially just because like I got a real rush out of like handling it. I thought it looked cooler. I thought the paddle tail was like really interesting. So. I'd take, and I kinda, Allison spotted it, but I was like right there with her. So I felt.
1:08:19 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:08:19 Jeff Larson? I felt like we kinda spotted it and is cool.
1:08:23 Wes Larson? You know, it was close to overtaking dragons for me was the cuttlefish that we saw at night that just had like this crazy vibrant like electric pattern rippling through it. I just could have stared at it. That whole dive was so cool.
1:08:37 Mike Smith? I think the Komodo dragon's sweet just because it's one of those things where you're just not going to see a bigger lizard than that. And once you get to the very top of a category like that, like seeing a cheetah run, it's like, well, that's the fastest land mammal. That's.
1:08:52 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:08:52 Mike Smith? I don't know. There's just something in my like primitive monkey brain that gets really excited about those kinds of things. So the dragons were awesome.
1:08:59 Wes Larson? Charismatic.
1:09:00 Jeff Larson? I might take out, I'm gonna take out Komodo dragons off mine too and put in rhinoceros beetles.
1:09:06 Wes Larson? Oh yeah, you were stoked about that.
1:09:08 Jeff Larson? Beetles were cool.
1:09:09 Wes Larson? They were cool. You finally got to live out that, that fantasy. All right.
1:09:13 Jeff Larson? But really, it's not cool.
1:09:16 Wes Larson? This is kind of a new category. I don't know if we've used it before, but I saw it in our category list. What do you think this animal's favorite band would be? A bull shark.
1:09:26 Mike Smith? I'm so curious.
1:09:27 Wes Larson? I have my answer ready.
1:09:28 Mike Smith? Jeff's answer is gonna be, that's like the one I'm most curious.
1:09:32 Wes Larson? I, so I think all sharks are inherently like beautiful animals and they have a certain grace to them. So immediately because it's like a stalky aggressive shark thought of like metal. Or, you know, something a little harder and more aggressive. But because of the grace element and the beauty element, I went with Turnstile, which I know they're like a very popular heavy metal band right now. I, I do really like Turnstile, so for me it made a lot of sense. They combine a lot of kind of melodic stuff with really heavy riffs. So I thought it was a perfect band for a bull shark to be into.
1:10:08 Mike Smith? I had that exact same line of thinking, but I ended up in a little different spot. So I kind of hear more post-rock when I see them move through the water like godspeed or explosions in the sky or something like that. So. Yeah, any of those big post-rock outfits or what I'm, my brain's telling me, Sigur Ros, something like that. Yeah.
1:10:28 Wes Larson? Calmer.
1:10:29 Mike Smith? I like it.
1:10:29 Jeff Larson? I'm because they're kind of just like you're not to. All these people, bull sharks are their favorite sharks are going to be in my comments, but.
1:10:39 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:10:39 Jeff Larson? They're kind of your average shark, you know, they're, they're a little meat and potatoes. So I'm going to go with Gasolina. Just because that song gets played everywhere.
1:10:51 Jeff Larson? Yeah, Daddy Yankee. I think of Mexico when I think of bull sharks because.
1:10:56 Wes Larson? Okay.
1:10:56 Jeff Larson? I think they're there.
1:11:00 Jeff Larson? Just Latin America in general. I think they're in Lake Nicaragua, but I'm not even sure about that.
1:11:06 Wes Larson? They are. Yep.
1:11:07 Jeff Larson? Okay. Yeah. And they Guatemala, they play Gasolina every single day. So.
1:11:15 Jeff Larson? I'm going Gasolina. I think it's like a uptempo. Like I could see biting people with that song playing, you know?
1:11:23 Mike Smith? Yeah, sure. Yeah.
1:11:25 Wes Larson? I like it. Yeah, definitely out of the blue.
1:11:29 Wes Larson? Okay, uh, let's do a couple of quick listener questions. This one's from Alaskan Crow, who says, can Wes explain Barbary Lions to me? I saw a sad and very likely AI video, and now they're all I can think about. So Barbary Lions were a type of lion, a subspecies of lion that existed in like North Africa and maybe Southern Europe for a while.
1:11:53 Wes Larson? They've long been extirpated, but I do like if that made you sad, I do just want to remind you, they were just, they're lions. They're a subspecies of lion, but they're lions. So like when people got really upset 10 years ago, when there was news that the Eastern Cougar was extinct. It just kind of meant like Cougars aren't in the east of the US anymore, but there's still plenty of Cougars out there. It'll be sad when we lose, if we lose Florida Panthers, but they're still Cougars. And that's kind of what happened with Barbary Lions. They're extinct from part of their range, but lions are doing okay throughout the rest of their range. They're not doing great.
1:12:30 Jeff Larson? I do think, I think I saw the video they're talking about, and it does make it seem like Barbary Lions were like maybe a little bit more, or just like a little different than your average lion. That's not true.
1:12:43 Wes Larson? No, it is. Like when you have an animal that lives in the desert, that's a subspecies, they often look really different, like um, Gobi brown bears that live in the Gobi Desert of China and Mongolia, look very different from brown bears, but they're still a brown bear. It's still the same species, just a subspecies. So it's sad. Don't get me wrong. It's sad, but it's not like we lost a whole species. We've lost.
1:13:07 Jeff Larson? But like in a million years, that could have turned into a new species.
1:13:10 Wes Larson? Sure. Yeah, it probably would have. That's true.
1:13:13 Mike Smith? That's sad.
1:13:14 Wes Larson? That is sad. Thanks for keeping it sad. Uh, this one's from Dylan. Dylan says, if you could see one animal from L O T R, Lord of the Rings, in real life, what would it be? And then some options, Oliphant, Shelob, Warg, the Eagles, the Felbeast, Bill, the pony, Jeff, uh, those big ass rhinos that pulled Grand to the gates of Minas Tirith, Jeff. They said Jeff twice. So what do you guys think? Any beast from Lord of the Rings?
1:13:48 Mike Smith? The grand pullers are interesting because that was total artistic expression in the movies. Tolkien never really explained or described those at all. So maybe that is the right choice just to see what those actually looked like, you know?
1:14:01 Wes Larson? If we're counting the hobbit, I'm taking smog. Yep.
1:14:04 Jeff Larson? A dragon. Beat you.
1:14:06 Wes Larson? Yeah. If we can't count the hobbit movies, then I'll pick a fell beast because it's kind of just like a small dragon. Yeah, the fell beasts are what the Nazgul ride. Balrog, I would count as a beast. A beast of fire and flame.
1:14:22 Mike Smith? I want to see Rosie.
1:14:24 Wes Larson? Rosie? Sure. She's a beast.
1:14:28 Jeff Larson? More than Giadra?
1:14:30 Mike Smith? Giadra. Galadriel?
1:14:33 Jeff Larson? Galadriel?
1:14:35 Mike Smith? What just happened?
1:14:36 Wes Larson? Galadriel.
1:14:37 Jeff Larson? Giadra.
1:14:38 Mike Smith? Yeah, because she's got a thick.
1:14:40 Wes Larson? All right.
1:14:42 Mike Smith? But.
1:14:42 Wes Larson? Let's see. Do we have any thoughts on toe shoes or toe socks? I laughed for this is from Nathan. I laughed for ages, but got a pair of toe socks and they're amazing. I might slowly transition to full time toe shoes.
1:14:55 Mike Smith? Ooh, toe shoes even.
1:14:56 Wes Larson? I don't really like them. I've worn toe socks and they made my toes feel like trapped and weird and too separated. And I feel like shoes would be even worse for me. So I'm not a fan. I think they look weird too. Just gonna say it, Nathan. I'm sorry. You guys got any strong feelings?
1:15:11 Jeff Larson? I, we, we just wore socks with like just the big toe slit the other day. And I hated it. So, but I gotta go full foot. I'll try it out. I don't know. I don't have a. I do think they look kind of dumb, but it's like, I think once you can get over that caring, what your shoes look like, it's also kind of cool. So I don't know.
1:15:34 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:15:35 Jeff Larson? Yeah.
1:15:35 Mike Smith? I think it's probably something I could get used to. I just haven't. So I'm never comfortable in them. The toe shoes, I mean, I have to really sit down and ponder. Cause I'm thinking very negatively towards them right now, but maybe I shouldn't.
1:15:49 Jeff Larson? I kind of feel like I wouldn't be shocked to see you just show up in toe shoes one day, Mike.
1:15:55 Mike Smith? It's gonna happen.
1:15:56 Jeff Larson? You like fashion risks, you know?
1:15:59 Mike Smith? I do.
1:16:00 Wes Larson? Uh, this one's from David. It's a great question. If one person had to drive you safely from Montana to Mexico, would you pick Jason Statham or Vin Diesel? Those are your two options.
1:16:12 Jeff Larson? Like they're both terrible options.
1:16:15 Mike Smith? Stay them. He's the transporter.
1:16:17 Wes Larson? Stay them. Yeah. I feel like I'd run out of stuff to talk about with Vin Diesel after like 15 minutes. But Statham, I feel like I could go for a while. I'd have a hard time not bringing up Paul Walker and saying something bad too. So.
1:16:31 Mike Smith? That'd be tough.
1:16:31 Jeff Larson? It's Vin Diesel or Jason Statham?
1:16:34 Wes Larson? Yeah.
1:16:34 Jeff Larson? It's not like Dominic Toretto or the transporter.
1:16:39 Wes Larson? It's Vin Diesel or Jason Statham?
1:16:41 Jeff Larson? I think I'll go Vin then. I think Vin drive, actually drives a car. I don't think Jason Statham does.
1:16:49 Mike Smith? Maybe you're right. Yeah.
1:16:51 Wes Larson? All right. Uh, let's just close it with that. We're gonna do one last category, which is, where do bull sharks rank? We're not, we're not doing claws because we've already done claws for them, but where do they rank? In your shark list? Are they in your top 10?
1:17:06 Mike Smith? I think they would be from Ja- Jeff had an interesting line of thinking where you said they're a little bit meat and potatoes. But that's like sharks are sweet and it's the shark that I think of in my brain when I think of sharks. It's not gonna be my absolute favorite, of course, but it'd probably be in like the six or seven range. I think they're really, really cool.
1:17:24 Jeff Larson? Whoa, the new ca- that category, Wes?
1:17:27 Wes Larson? Six, seven.
1:17:28 Jeff Larson? Do the six, seven category.
1:17:30 Mike Smith? Are they six, seven though is the real question. That should have been the category.
1:17:34 Wes Larson? Yeah. Are they six, seven? What do you guys think? Let's talk.
1:17:36 Mike Smith? Of course. Are you kidding me?
1:17:38 Wes Larson? Yes, according to Mike, yes.
1:17:41 Wes Larson? They're in that range for me, too. I'm just gonna piggyback on yours since you just went. I think what has them beat is whale sharks, great whites, thresher sharks, oceanic white tips, probably Caribbean reef sharks, maybe, but then then we're maybe getting into bull shark range because they were the first sharks I ever freedove with and it was magical. Like just having a bunch of bull sharks swimming around me out in the open ocean was really cool. And in really clear water, they're not generally aggressive at all. So it was really just a cool experience for me and I thought they were beautiful. So yeah, they're in my top 10 sharks. Oh, great hammerheads.
1:18:21 Jeff Larson? I think I'm gonna put them at like 12.
1:18:24 Wes Larson? Just outside.
1:18:25 Jeff Larson? I like the ones with like the saw nose more.
1:18:28 Wes Larson? Cool. Yeah.
1:18:29 Jeff Larson? Threshers.
1:18:31 Wes Larson? Goblin. I had threshers above them. Yeah.
1:18:33 Mike Smith? Mako? I like Mako's a lot.
1:18:35 Wes Larson? Mako, ooh, and blue sharks too are really pretty. This is hard.
1:18:40 Jeff Larson? Oceanic white tips.
1:18:42 Wes Larson? I had them in front of them, too. What's hard for me is picking between tiger sharks and bull sharks, actually. I think they're very close for me.
1:18:51 Mike Smith? Yeah.
1:18:52 Wes Larson? All right. Well, I think we probably are gonna put something at the front of the episode about this, but we are about to do a really exciting trip. Jeff, do you want to talk about it for just a quick second?
1:19:03 Jeff Larson? Yeah, we're gonna go to Spalbard.
1:19:07 Wes Larson? Close. Small bird. Yeah.
1:19:10 Jeff Larson? What did I say?
1:19:11 Wes Larson? Spalbard. It's fall with a V.
1:19:14 Jeff Larson? Fall. Okay.
1:19:15 Wes Larson? Yeah, Spalbard. There you go.
1:19:17 Jeff Larson? With National Park After Dark. So yeah, we're really excited. We've been trying to plan something joint for a while now and this was just a place we all really wanted to go. And we all just love being on a boat. Unfortunately, living on a boat does cost a little bit more. So it might not be in everyone's range.
1:19:38 Wes Larson? Especially in Spalbard.
1:19:39 Jeff Larson? Hopefully we can do some more joint stuff that's more affordable, but this is how we're gonna kick it off and we're so excited about it.
1:19:48 Wes Larson? Yeah, really good chance for polar bears, walrus, some really cool animals up there. Possible to see northern lights or.
1:19:54 Jeff Larson? Northern lights. Woo.
1:19:56 Wes Larson? It's an amazing place. Everyone that goes there loves it. And yeah, like Jeff said, it's an expensive trip because they are like it's an expensive place to go no matter what, but um. We always offer these like the first spots to our people on Patreon. So if you are really interested in this trip, you can sign up and then cancel later if you want. But that's where we'll first be announcing the time to sign up. But it's coming up quick after this episode comes out. It'll be a matter of days. So check it out. Check out our Patreon and get ready because it's going to be really.
1:20:32 Jeff Larson? And I, I want to say too, I think for like where we're going, what we're seeing, the joint trip aspect. It's actually going to be like a really good price for people. So.
1:20:42 Wes Larson? As cheap as we can do it.
1:20:44 Jeff Larson? Yeah. So I, I can't wait. I think that'd be amazing.
1:20:48 Wes Larson? I'm excited.
1:20:49 Mike Smith? You're gonna have to Jeff, you can't just go tomorrow. You have to wait a little bit.
1:20:52 Wes Larson? You could take a bunch of drugs and go into a coma.
1:20:57 Jeff Larson? I bet you there's, there's somewhere that will put me into a coma.
1:21:03 Mike Smith? I could do it. I've been wanting to put, put you in a coma for a while, actually.
1:21:08 Jeff Larson? How would you do it?
1:21:10 Mike Smith? Just bark you on the head with a lunch pail.
1:21:12 Wes Larson? Or one of those big like clubs from the cavemenus.
1:21:16 Jeff Larson? Yesterday we went and got like ramen at this like super famous ramen spot. The girl walking out of the place, she like opened the door too hard and she made such a funny little dong in like a Japanese noise though, like dong.
1:21:33 Mike Smith? This is really cute.
1:21:35 Jeff Larson? I love when like noises are like, you know what they're doing, but it's like different than how we do it.
1:21:41 Wes Larson? That is really funny. That's great. All right. Well, thank you guys. Thank you everyone for listening. Uh, we're all going to be back stateside next time we record. So we'll be back in our typical recording environments. All right. Love you.
1:21:56 Mike Smith? See ya.
1:21:57 Jeff Larson? Love you.
Previous Neurotoxins: They Hurt - A Batch of Listener Stories Including a Snowmobile Moose Flip, Multiplying Bears, and More Next Snow Leopard Attack - The Ghost of the Mountains Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated