#875: The Random Show — Tim and Kevin Talk Retreats, Mortality, AI Predictions, Supplements, Rock Climbing at (Almost) 50, and Not Waiting for “Someday”

In this edition of The Random Show, Tim Ferriss http://tim.blog and Kevin Rose https://www.kevinrose.com/ reunite over tequila to talk Zen retreats, learning to rock climb at (almost) 50, mortality and grief, why you should stop saying "one day," AI predictions , and much more. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by: Incogni, https://incogni.com/timwhich removes your personal data from the web, helping shield you from fraud, scams, and identity theft: Incogni.com/Tim https://incogni.com/tim (use code TIM at checkout and get 60% off an annual plan)Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim high-yield cash account: Wealthfront.com/Tim https://wealthfront.com/Tim New clients get 3.30% base APY from program banks + additional 0.75% boost for 3 months on your uninvested cash (max $150k balance). Terms and conditions apply. The Cash Account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC (“WFB”) member FINRA/SIPC, not a bank. The base APY as of 1/30/26 is representative, can change, and requires no minimum. Tim Ferriss, a non-client, receives compensation from WFB for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of WFB, which creates a conflict of interest. Individual experiences and outcomes will differ. Instant withdrawals may be limited by your receiving firm and other factors. Investment advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, not bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value. Timestamps [00:00:00] Start.[00:00:24] A tequila toast, and getting "taxed" by alcohol as you age.[00:02:18] Toaster at 15: a late-night health scare.[00:06:01] Losing Om Malik, and finding out on retreat.[00:08:03] Matt Mullenweg, Antarctica, and gratitude.[00:09:34] Coming to terms with our limited time on Earth.[00:14:37] Five days of silence and the koan "Mu."[00:15:20] Kevin's micro-insight and a plug for The Way.[00:27:25] Rock climbing after 40, and a Yosemite goal.[00:29:18] Michael Eckert and finger-strength training.[00:30:40] The Nug, Abrahangs, and a travel training kit.[00:32:57] Free Solo and climbing with a fear of heights.[00:37:53] The Blade Itself, and a friend lost in a plane crash.[00:39:19] A2 protein and Pioneer Pastures.[00:40:34] Maui Nui venison and the nitrate question.[00:43:48] deltaG ketones: what they are and the catch.[00:45:42] Ketones, dementia, and verbal fluidity.[00:46:29] Pre-grieving a parent's decline.[00:48:33] Training not to die: the one bike I can stand and the Norwegian 4×4.[00:51:10] Something beats nothing: saunas, treadmills, and Duolingo chess.[00:53:04] The MM120 anxiety study — and a small-world surprise.[00:56:17] Psilocybin, LSD, and dementia case reports.[01:01:28] Neutonic toothpicks and Kevin's AI-powered home.[01:06:12] Spooky AI personalization and investment autopsies.[01:17:38] Values cards, contractual bonds, and dark information.[01:23:25] 360 reviews and child-rearing.[01:24:54] Wispr Flow, Shokz, and my recording rig.[01:29:32] The "big three" and where AI goes next.[01:44:40] Let your winners run; buy the company, not the product.[01:51:08] Digg's relaunch, 5-Bullet Friday, and parting thoughts.* DISCLAIMER FROM TIM FERRISS: I am not an investment adviser. Nor is Kevin Rose. All opinions are mine alone. Or his. There are risks involved in placing any investment in securities or in Bitcoin or in cryptocurrencies or in anything. None of the information presented herein is intended to form the basis of any offer or recommendation or have any regard to the investment objectives, financial situation, or needs of any specific person, and that includes you, my dear listener or reader. Everything you’re going to hear is for informational entertainment purposes only. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Kevin Rose?

  Kev Kev. Tim Tim. Good to see you, man. Good to see you. And let's figure out which one there we go. Cheers. Cheers. All right. You know, I know the cool kids are down on alcohol, but every once in a while, I think there's a place for it. There's a time and place. And this is the time. I think this is the time and the place. And I think paying a tax for it the next day is a feature, not a bug. Are you getting taxed harder on alcohol? Of course, yeah. Is it getting worse? Every old bastard. Yeah, I know. That's gender neutral, gets taxed as you can process ethanol less and less well over time. But I'm cool with it. I don't have that much, but today has been hectic. Yeah. You know, take a little, take, take, take a little edge off.

• 1:06Kevin Rose?

  And people may not like the sign of that. A little antiquated, maybe, for all the cool ketamine kids. No offense. Don't put that shit on me. I try it one time and I get the freaking ambassador. Your fucker goes once and then they call me the godfucker.

• 1:24Kevin Rose?

  You can't get around it. I still stand by that experience. When you're doing it in a supervised setting by a medical professional. Here we go. No, I'm telling you, it's, you've done it. Of course I have. Okay, so there we go. Well, yeah, because I wanted to be able to speak. I saw you at a party one time and you were just like, ooh. That's not true. That's not true. Still have all my nostrils intact. No ketamine cramps, you know? I don't even know what that is. Is that a thing? That's when you use too much. Okay. Way, way, way, way too much. Oh yeah, hurts bad on the bladder. Yeah, your bladder can get a little grumpy or a lot grumpy. Yeah. As the case might be. Yeah, I'm good. You know, I'm good. Kevin, random show number 3,479.

• 2:05Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. You know what's crazy, dude, is I looked up a random show the other day and you had a bit of hair. Like way back in the day. Way back, yeah. We were babies. I know. So much shit has happened. I know. The only constant, I think, is like, maybe like Toaster, who's barely alive. Toaster, I know, seriously. Toaster was a tiny, tiny little pup. Yeah. Who was chewing through the XLR cables. Oh my God. On your couch in San Francisco way, way, way back in the day. Toaster's 15. And I'll tell a quick little story. A week ago, I get this call. Daria calls me and she's like, you gotta get over to the house. Like Toaster's shaking violently.

• 2:48Kevin Rose?

  And he's 15. He's like running into walls and shit. Like, you know, he's getting up there and his legs are collapsing so he can't stand up. And he couldn't stand up and he's shaking violently. And I'm like, just flying over there. I throw him in my car. He's on my lap, driving to get to this emergency vet as fast as possible. And he just sprays shit all over me, like literally, I heard it like, I felt his stomach be like, gurg, gurg, gurg. Here we go. And then like 10 seconds later, I'm not even talking like, oh, like, oh, he had a little shit. Like, no, no, no, no. Like shotgun against the car door, like the whole thing. And it's all down my pants. Poor Toasty.

• 3:29Kevin Rose?

  I know, but you know what's funny, dude? It's like, I rushed him in and long story short, he's okay now. What was it? He had gone into the vet the day prior and he was so nervous that he stood for, he had to be there for like a multi-hour blood draw. Cause he was having some other issues. And he stood for like six hours straight. That's too long for an old dog. And dude, he can only stand for like 10 minutes, like max. And so he had just overtaxed himself and got like, there's a syndrome that they can get when they're like super stressed out and all that. Sure. So. Little Molly's at it, or Big Molly. She's on the floor right here. She's sleeping. Molly's 12. It's crazy. But long story short, he's okay. But I thought to myself, it's so weird. Cause when I walked in there

• 4:11Kevin Rose?

  and there was like shit and like I'm literally, I'm in tears. Cause I think I'm about to have to put down my dog. Yeah, of course. And I just thought, it's okay. I'll do this any day for this dude. Yeah. You like, when you care about your animals that much, none of that matters. Yeah. Like you would do anything for them, you know? And it's just like, just that love. It's so crazy how much you love these little beasts. Like it's insane, dude. It's like a kid. It's like a kid. Yeah. It's wild to think about if you really sit down and think about it, some of these super common, daily experiences, like communing with a dog or pointing and having a dog recognize that you're pointing, for instance.

• 4:53Kevin Rose?

  That's really rare in the animal kingdom, that recognition of pointing as just one example. But how unusual it is that we have this, and yes, we have cats. I grew up with four cats and two dogs. I get it. But in particular, dogs as like companions, co-hunters, et cetera. The fact that we've evolved, co-evolved in a sense and sort of co-domesticated. Yeah. Also, right? It's not necessarily one way. Read The Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan for more on that. It is incredible. Yeah. Right? The fact that we have like, we're totally calm having this 60-plus pound beast with giant fangs on the floor is nuts.

• 5:35Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've seen that, those Instagram posts where it's like, where I was and where I am now today. And like they show like the wild like wolf, like out in the countryside, like eating a rabbit. And then they showed like a poodle in a tutu outfit and shit, like all like dying off. The meme is, I'm gonna go grab some scraps from those weird monkeys. What's the worst that could happen? And then it's like 10,000 years later, right? You're a chihuahua with a bonnet on. What else is going on, Kevin? I got a couple of things on my list, but we got, there's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to talk about. First I'll say that lately, life has been lifing me. It's been doing all the things. We lost a dear colleague, Omalik. Oh man, very sad.

• 6:14Kevin Rose?

  Very notorious, like amazing, early tech, just creative. Brilliant writer, brilliant thinker, very sweet guy. The nicest. And yeah, we lost him within the last week. Yeah. So. He passed away. So that was tough. That was really tough. I found out when I was at a retreat. I went to a five-day silent meditation retreat, which is great, but bummer to hear that. But I mean, this is the thing that I realized the other day. I was thinking about, you know, Toaster and Ohm and other stuff I have going on and my mom getting older and falling and all these things. And in some sense, it's unavoidable, number one. And number two, I kind of wouldn't have it any other way. It's what makes life interesting.

• 6:58Kevin Rose?

  When Ohm passed. You mean death? Well, just everything, the chaos of it all. If you can just take a step back and be like, well, or I could just be sitting there, living a really boring life and nothing could be happening. Like when Ohm passed, what I felt was a severe sense of loss and sorrow and sadness. But I realized that that gap is just love at the end of the day. Because I wouldn't have it unless I loved this man so much. Like I cared for this person so much. How lucky am I to have crossed paths with this person? Yeah. And you were. To get to know them. And you were tied in through True Ventures, obviously, and prior to that. Yeah. But like anyone in general, that you lose, that you love, you know? I mean, when I lost my dad, like that is just a gaping hole

• 7:42Kevin Rose?

  of love manifested through sorrow and sadness. And once you realize that, it's like, wow, I had this great father that did all these amazing things with me. And you can kind of convert that or just be okay with it. Not that you need to change that feeling. Right. Recognize that it's a consequence of the love. It's a consequence of the love, the deep love. Yeah. You know, I heard about his passing and I want to give credit where credit is due for a few things. Matt Mullenweg, mutual friend. He was incredibly close to Ohm. And I'm really grateful to Matt for a few things. One, I mean, many things. I could give a long list, but there are a few.

• 8:23Kevin Rose?

  One is he organized a trip to Antarctica. I've never been to Antarctica or hadn't. And on that trip, we're just a handful of people, including Ohm. So I got to spend.

• 8:33Tim Ferriss?

  Quality time. And trust me, when you're in Antarctica, you are indoors most of the time. What that means is you're either trying to sleep in your tent, but it's going to be during the summer. So it's like a spotlight in your face 24 hours a day. Or you're in one of these other structures where you're probably like having wine and junk food. Let's be honest. And there's a lot of talking. So we got to hang out and Om was also an avid photographer. And so we got to like, go to this nearby Empire Penguin Colony, which was a once in a lifetime experience. And you just sit and talk. And if there were going to be any small talk, which there wasn't going to be with Om, or me really, for that matter, it all falls away after the first half a day.

• 9:15Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 9:15Tim Ferriss?

  And then everybody's kind of like psychologically naked. So I really want to thank Matt for that opportunity to bond with Om. And I'd spent a lot of time with him, but it was always in these little bits and pieces. You know, not for several days straight where you're basically like locked in together.

• 9:34Tim Ferriss?

  And separately, Matt introduced me to this short blog post by someone who typically writes very long blog posts, Tim Urban, called The Tail End. I don't know if I ever sent this to you.

• 9:45Kevin Rose?

  People should know by Wait But Why.

• 9:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Wait But Why.

• 9:48Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, fantastic blog.

• 9:49Tim Ferriss?

  And The Tail End makes the point, among many others, that by the time you, I think it's graduate from high school, let's assume you're headed off to college away from your parents. You've spent something like 90, 95% of the total hours you will ever spend with your parents by the time you graduate from high school. And when you start to visualize that, and Tim Urban's really good at laying it out visually, it can provoke some really profound changes for me. I mean, just reading that short blog post sent to me by Matt, ended up leading to taking my family on these family trips as like awkward and uncomfortable that was at points. Cause my family doesn't really emote much. So you stick us together in the way that I was together with Om.

• 10:34Tim Ferriss?

  And it's, it can be super uncomfortable, but making the effort, right? At least feeling like, look, this runway is not infinite.

• 10:43Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Tim Ferriss?

  And it's like, let me just make the effort. And I'm glad I did because we got to a point where it's like, with my dad's mobility, he's really compromised and needs a wheelchair now for a lot.

• 10:52Kevin Rose?

  I just saw him a few days ago and it was great to see him, dude.

• 10:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Kevin Rose?

  It was so great to see him. He's so kind.

• 10:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 10:58Kevin Rose?

  He's like Kevin, like so happy and you know, he has a little cane and it was just like so sweet to see him, man. I hadn't seen him for like years.

• 11:06Tim Ferriss?

  Long time.

• 11:06Kevin Rose?

  It had been like seven years or something like that?

• 11:08Tim Ferriss?

  Something like that. And I'm glad I took those trips because before you know it, you can't do it anymore. And it makes me think of, you mentioned meditation, this really good, short, I'll call it a meditation for simplicity, but like an audiobook chapter by Sam Harris called The Last Time. I think it's called The Last Time. And he reflects on these various experiences that at the time you don't recognize are the last time for something, right? So he, he went skiing, he went skiing, he went skiing, and there was a time when he stopped. But he didn't realize that that was going to be the last time.

• 11:45Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 11:46Tim Ferriss?

  And you just fucking don't know.

• 11:50Kevin Rose?

  Do you ever try and like, I think about this dude, and then I try and do it one more time?

• 11:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's how I always end up injured.

• 11:56Kevin Rose?

  Dude, I went to the bouncy house with my kids and like, I'm 49, you know? And I was like, I'm gonna fucking do a flip right now. And like literally people were like, don't do it. Don't like, they're calling me off, you know? And I did it and I stuck it and it felt good.

• 12:10Tim Ferriss?

  You're good on a trampoline.

• 12:12Kevin Rose?

  Might be my last time.

• 12:12Tim Ferriss?

  You might be your last time. You are good on a trampoline. This is so weird, man. Dude, I kid you not, I had a dream last night of the two of us going to House of Air at Chrissy Field in San Francisco, and you were doing like front flips off your knees.

• 12:26Kevin Rose?

  I can do that.

• 12:27Tim Ferriss?

  You dropped your hat and then you like kicked the trampoline to bounce it back up to your head. And I was like, what?

• 12:31Kevin Rose?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait. So you know, I sent you that video of me dropping my hat and kicking it back in my head?

• 12:36Tim Ferriss?

  I've seen you do it live too.

• 12:37Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:38Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 12:38Kevin Rose?

  So it just made its way into the dream.

• 12:40Tim Ferriss?

  And I was just like, what? I literally had that in my dreams last night. That's wild.

• 12:44Kevin Rose?

  And I have the assless chaps on like I normally do when you're here?

• 12:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you had the assless chaps on, which like depending on your angle can be kind of awkward.

• 12:50Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:51Tim Ferriss?

  Cause you like doing the straddle flip. You like doing the straddle flip?

• 12:55Tim Ferriss?

  So it's a little awkward.

• 12:56Kevin Rose?

  I've heard about these dreams before.

• 12:59Tim Ferriss?

  I always text him, Kevin, I'm like, I was thinking, I was thinking of you last night.

• 13:02Kevin Rose?

  The chaps were back.

• 13:08Tim Ferriss?

  Longtime listeners know how important privacy is to me. In fact, my friends would call me paranoid, or they used to call me paranoid. And now they think I was just depression in a sense. These days, you may have noticed, it is a lot harder to protect privacy. Anyone can find your information with a quick search. It's shockingly easy. And I've had friends and paid people to Red Team me to try to find my info. And what you'll notice is that shadowy data brokers quietly collect and trade your home address, phone, family members, and more. It's a mess. You have to have a plan for defense and you can fight back with incogni. That's I-N-C-O-G-N-I. Incogni automatically removes your information

• 13:52Tim Ferriss?

  across 420 plus data brokers with 1,000 plus additional sites covered in their unlimited plan. And they keep it scrubbed automatically. Deloitte has independently verified the headline numbers. In other words, 245 million plus removal requests. And the company adheres to strict security standards with an A plus rating from the Better Business Bureau. And with their unlimited plan, if you find your info on a site they don't monitor, send them the link and their privacy team will handle it. Go to incogni.com/tim, I-N-C-O-G-N-I.com/tim, and use code TIM at checkout to get 60% off of an annual plan. One more time, incogni.com/tim.

• 14:37Tim Ferriss?

  What do you got, man? I mean, people check out, my hands are too sweaty because I'm thinking about the chest.

• 14:42Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, and the chest.

• 14:46Tim Ferriss?

  Wow, that's the perfect audio.

• 14:48Kevin Rose?

  Well, the retreat was fantastic. I spent five days going really deep on my koan, doing a lot of work on it.

• 14:54Tim Ferriss?

  Moo.

• 14:56Kevin Rose?

  Moo, which you can listen to Henry Schickman on your podcast if people are interested about what Zen is all about. Like real true traditional Zen with koans. And you've probably heard the, the sound of one hand clapping. That actually is a one of 500 plus koans. Yeah, it was fantastic. I had a couple of little micro insights, which was good. And I was kind of rushed through to the Zen master to explain them and try and get some clarity on them, which is great.

• 15:20Tim Ferriss?

  How do you know that you're having a micro insight? So it's not like my balls are chafing in this position. It's something else.

• 15:26Kevin Rose?

  Yes.

• 15:29Kevin Rose?

  But close. I essentially was sitting and you know, Henry, one of the Zen masters that you've had on the show, a dear friend of ours, was there. And then his roshi from Japan was there. So it was very special. And then it comes every two years.

• 15:42Tim Ferriss?

  What's his name? Yamada?

• 15:43Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 15:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yamada Roshi.

• 15:44Kevin Rose?

  Roshi, yeah. So basically I was kind of pulled Henry aside. You're not supposed to, he's not talking, but I was like, he's like, yeah, how's it going? Like this and that. And I was like, well, I had this thing happen. Like, what do you think about this? And he's like, you gotta come with me right now. Like, well, not come with me, but he like got me right in front. There's a line to see the roshi to go have your private interview where you go and like check your practice with them. So it's behind closed doors. You go in, you sit down with the roshi. You typically get between two and 10 minutes to sit down and talk about your progress on your practice. And you do that like once every day and a half when you're out there. And this was

• 16:21Tim Ferriss?

  That's cool.

• 16:22Kevin Rose?

  Enough to where Henry was like, you should go talk to him right away.

• 16:25Tim Ferriss?

  Skip the line. TSA pre-check.

• 16:26Kevin Rose?

  Like, go through the pre-check. And it was beautiful. It was a micro little thing.

• 16:31Tim Ferriss?

  I can share it if you're curious.

• 16:32Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, of course I'm curious. Yeah. So there was this sense, I'm sitting there.

• 16:36Tim Ferriss?

  I get bored of hearing myself talk. That's why I'm here. Talk to you.

• 16:40Kevin Rose?

  I'm sitting here staring against the wall because in Zen, you stare against the wall with your eyes open. You're staring about three quarters down and kind of just glancing on. I'm working on my koan. And for people that don't know how you do that is essentially on the out breath, you just like slowly internally say your koan. It's almost like a mantra in some sense, but a little bit more involved.

• 16:57Tim Ferriss?

  Confounding.

• 16:58Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. It's like a question you're kind of asking yourself slowly. That doesn't make sense. And eventually it pops. But what happened is I had about two seconds of this sense that

• 17:11Kevin Rose?

  there was, and this is going to be hard to explain because it's not from the world of thought, which is already hard to explain.

• 17:17Tim Ferriss?

  It's like a sneeze in the perineum. No.

• 17:21Kevin Rose?

  No.

• 17:21Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 17:21Kevin Rose?

  I had, I had, close. I had a sense of nothing lacking.

• 17:26Tim Ferriss?

  That sounds nice.

• 17:27Kevin Rose?

  Nothing needed to be added and nothing even possibly could be added and nothing possibly could be taken away. Because everything at that moment was full in the way that it should be. But what was interesting about it is it wasn't an emotion. It was just like a steady state of being. So it wasn't like, oh, I feel free right now. No, none of that. It was just like, oh, everything is here, perfectly present. And it was just wild.

• 18:04Tim Ferriss?

  Wild in what sense? In the, in the felt sense of that experience or realization?

• 18:12Kevin Rose?

  Wild in the sense that...

• 18:14Tim Ferriss?

  Wild in the, "I just drank too much tequila after not having much tequila."

• 18:17Kevin Rose?

  I haven't had any tequila. In the sense that we oftentimes so often like go outside or inside into our brain to try and find something, figure something out, an emotional state that's either bothering you or feels good or feels bad or something else. And then just to know that everything, and I don't mean like objects, like everything was one unit of nothing lacking. And it was just a micro sense of kind of like, "Oh, there's actually nothing to do because everything's already here." They talk about this in Zen a bit where you already have everything that you need. So it's just, they call it the removal of the veil.

• 19:02Kevin Rose?

  It's an expansive awareness that you get from a deep continued practice over years and decades, but it was already there all along.

• 19:12Tim Ferriss?

  Can I give a shameless plug?

• 19:13Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, let's hear it.

• 19:14Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So you and I are both involved with The Way, which is this guided, single path meditation app, which is guided by Henry Shukman, who you mentioned. And it's the progressive development of skills on a single path, which I really like, as opposed to just what is the meditation de jour with no coherence. And a few of my favorite meditations, I have a lot of different sessions bookmarked. I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And by the way, for people who are like, "Oh, these guys are just shilling their bags." I do think it can be a good business, but this is sort of a ideologically philosophical

• 19:57Tim Ferriss?

  investment of time and money.

• 20:00Kevin Rose?

  It's like the reason we invested in the dog aging study with Rappamys.

• 20:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. University of Washington, it's like, "This needs to exist."

• 20:07Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, it needs to exist.

• 20:07Tim Ferriss?

  "It's good for the world, but let's try it." So sure, we've got some chips on the table, but this is mostly because we believe in it. And a few of my favorites, if people ever try it, "Whole Earth is Medicine" is one. Another one is "This Too Is Me," which makes me think about what you're saying. So "This Too Is Me" is a meditation led by Henry, which, this is gonna sound maybe esoteric, but it's not. When you recognize that all of the things you experience are mediated by your mind, right? And therefore, like when you hear something, when you feel something, when you're interrupted

• 20:49Tim Ferriss?

  by something, et cetera, et cetera, anything you can possibly imagine experiencing is also you, because ultimately it is entirely mediated by your mind. Let's just use that as the brain. And it's incredibly, at least for me, and I'm not comparing it to your experience, because I think it's probably characteristically different, is incredibly relaxing to let go, even just for a moment, because my brain is like the ultimate dog chasing a squirrel kind of brain, right? Like, I'm always looking for something to fix, something to improve, what I need to do, what is happening next week, and meditation is...

• 21:30Kevin Rose?

  You are the squirrel.

• 21:31Tim Ferriss?

  I am the squirrel. Right. It can be excruciatingly painful.

• 21:36Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Tim Ferriss?

  Like meditation can be super hard.

• 21:38Kevin Rose?

  That's a very common thing. People are like, "I can't do this."

• 21:41Tim Ferriss?

  But when Henry gives you permission to include all of that as you, I know this might sound very bizarre, it allows you to kind of drop this burden that you didn't realize you were carrying. So in any case, you don't have to do a week-long meditation retreat. If you're just doing 10 minutes twice a day, and I do think there's some alchemy to twice a day, I don't know why exactly. I have some theories around vagus nerve stimulation and stuff, but you get a lot out of it. In any case, I didn't mean to interrupt your story.

• 22:12Kevin Rose?

  No, I think there's two things that I love that Henry says quite often when he starts some of these meditations, which is, "Take everything that you came in the door with, like all the thoughts, worries, emotions, things, and leave it at the door just for now. You can come back to it in 20 minutes, but just for now, the permission to set those things down for yourself, just for now, is such a beautiful thing." And then like the little instructions where he's like, "Drop your jaw an eighth of an inch." And I'm like, "Whoa, I didn't even realize." I was like, I was clenching my jaw.

• 22:44Tim Ferriss?

  Can I tell you something crazy about that?

• 22:46Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 22:46Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So I got fitted for a mandibular device, which is a fancy way of saying a double-decker mouthpiece.

• 22:54Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Tim Ferriss?

  That is an easier approach to resolving sleep apnea or snoring. So I don't snore a ton, but every once in a while I do, drives my lady insane, understandably. And if you take the jaw and drop it down an eighth of an inch and forward an eighth of an inch, you open your airway. And I was thinking about that because Henry will often say, as you're alluding to, like, "Drop your jaw and leave it forward as if it's resting on a small pillow, ever so slightly."

• 23:29Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 23:30Tim Ferriss?

  And it increases your airflow. I mean, these ancients hit on some stuff by trial and error that really just works. It's like, "Yeah, if you want to have better respiration while you're meditating and better alignment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just do what Henry's describing." And I will say his dulcet British tones.

• 23:52Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Tim Ferriss?

  If you just want a relaxing voice.

• 23:55Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Tim Ferriss?

  That will help you with chilling the fuck out when your monkey mind is ricocheting inside your skull, try Henry out. Like, you can find free stuff everywhere. I've had him on the podcast a bunch, as well as Meditation Mondays for a while, which were these very short episodes of guided meditations. In any case, you know, I've been so, it's the right word. I mean, overjoyed is, it sounds too dramatic, but I'll just say happy for you to watch your path with meditation, because it seems like you get so much nourishment and grounding from it. And no offense, you're kind of a spaz. You're kind of a spaz. Like, you get excited about shit and then you drop stuff that is very well exemplified and like, "Tim, you gotta buy this stock."

• 24:39Tim Ferriss?

  And then you never tell me when you sell, and I'm like, "Oh, fuck, I'm fucked."

• 24:42Kevin Rose?

  Oh, do you want to talk about...

• 24:43Tim Ferriss?

  Hold on, hold on, no, no, no.

• 24:45Kevin Rose?

  Because you lost me a real winner.

• 24:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you should have held. It's fine.

• 24:49Kevin Rose?

  No.

• 24:50Tim Ferriss?

  But anyway.

• 24:51Kevin Rose?

  Literally, Tim gives me this tip, and I'm like, "All right, I'm in." And then like a day and a half later, I'm down like...

• 24:56Tim Ferriss?

  I know, that's why you gotta wait. The point of the story is, I thought, this meditation thing, just like every nine months, you're like, "I'm moving to Android." And then I'm like, "Yeah, let me start the timer for two weeks before you come back to iPhone."

• 25:13Tim Ferriss?

  I'm like, "Yes, meditation thing, yeah, sure, we'll see." I give it two weeks, and you've stuck with it.

• 25:19Kevin Rose?

  It's been five years now.

• 25:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's really made me happy as your friend to see something that gives you that consistency. That's it. There's nothing more to add. I've been really, I'm not sure of the right way to put it. I've just been very reassured.

• 25:37Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Tim Ferriss?

  By you having that constant in your life.

• 25:40Kevin Rose?

  One of the things I'm curious about, speaking of constants and kind of like how things changed since we've known each other and you had hair and all that other shit. My hair wasn't great.

• 25:48Tim Ferriss?

  Still got plenty of hair, it's not on my head.

• 25:49Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly. Braids on there. The question I'm curious about is, I've been thinking a lot lately as I kind of march towards 50, what are the things that I've always said that I want to do that I'm just like, you know, I've got a thousand bookmarks on Instagram, like all these Japanese woodworking things and like...

• 26:10Tim Ferriss?

  It's always woodworking.

• 26:11Kevin Rose?

  It's always woodworking. You know, this is how bad my, speaking of the monkey mind and bouncing around, I literally have, for some reason, the algorithm is now giving me like those motherfucking boats inside of bottles, like people making the boats of the bottles. I'm like, "Am I gonna be a boat in the bottle guy?" Like, I don't know, maybe. Like, I realize now, I think the next couple of decades, like, I want to stop bullshitting myself and stop saying like, "Hey, one day, one day I'll get into Japanese woodworking, one day I'll do this," and really start doing some things.

• 26:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Kevin Rose?

  You've been really good, because like you, archery, hunting, like the stuff that you've gotten into, you've gone deep on the last few years. Are there any things that are on your kind of bucket list of things where you say, "One day," you know, you're busy with your podcast and all that shit you gotta go on?

• 26:58Tim Ferriss?

  Podcast, shoot me in the head. It's, it's fine and it's fun most of the time, but it's so crowded and it's like, man, if 20 other people are trying to do the same job, I don't want to do this job.

• 27:09Kevin Rose?

  It is wild how many new podcasters there are out there.

• 27:12Tim Ferriss?

  Well, also...

• 27:13Kevin Rose?

  And they're also optimizing every little freaking thing.

• 27:15Tim Ferriss?

  All the thumbnails, it's like, "What you need to know before your crypto crashes next week now." And I'm like, "Oh, God." I just don't want to play that game. And for me, I would say the most top of mind is rock climbing.

• 27:30Kevin Rose?

  Oh, really?

• 27:31Tim Ferriss?

  Actually, I just did some outdoor rock climbing a couple of days ago, and I love rock climbing. I was always, for at least the last 15 years, limited by my right elbow, which I had surgically repaired, so it's ready to go. And I want to do some multi-pitch stuff in Yosemite.

• 27:46Kevin Rose?

  Dude, let's go.

• 27:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 27:47Kevin Rose?

  So...

• 27:49Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know if I want to say this.

• 27:52Kevin Rose?

  All right, that's a good start.

• 27:53Tim Ferriss?

  So he was a big rock climber.

• 27:56Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 27:57Tim Ferriss?

  And he goes, he's very well built for it.

• 27:59Kevin Rose?

  To Yosemite.

• 28:00Tim Ferriss?

  I'm sure.

• 28:00Kevin Rose?

  We should go.

• 28:01Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 28:02Kevin Rose?

  He's like invited me to go there and do some.

• 28:04Tim Ferriss?

  He looks like someone who'd be good.

• 28:06Kevin Rose?

  Apparently he's amazing, so. And I'm like, dude, I can't go do multi pitch with you at Yosemite. And he's like, ah, just come out, we'll have fun, blah, blah, blah.

• 28:13Tim Ferriss?

  No, that's how you end up fucked.

• 28:14Kevin Rose?

  Yes, exactly. I did multi pitch when I was like 24 and it was like three pitches. Like I didn't do Yosemite.

• 28:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no, that's a commitment.

• 28:26Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 28:26Tim Ferriss?

  So the idea of having something like that to strive for, having some type of physical goal like that for me is very helpful. Because just not dying, like training to not die sooner than is necessary is not sufficient for me. I'm just like, that's such a depressing, uninvigorating goal. I'd much rather have something that has a deadline, right? It's like, all right, you need to be able to do X. In the case of the archery, it's like Lancaster Classic, here's the date. You need to do this type of training and this type of volume with this type of deliberate practice.

• 29:06Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 29:07Tim Ferriss?

  In order to be prepared to train and then compete, right? Okay. Similarly, for something like a multi pitch, it's like, okay. You can break that down and I just enjoy doing that stuff.

• 29:18Kevin Rose?

  Dude, so let me ask you a question. The number two, I don't know if you saw this on my, the number two story I had was this guy, Michael Eckert. Do you know who he is?

• 29:26Tim Ferriss?

  No, no idea.

• 29:27Kevin Rose?

  Oh, my God. Okay, so Huberman and Rogan, all these guys, they've talked about him publicly about this guy. He has won multiple pull-up world championships.

• 29:37Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 29:38Kevin Rose?

  And dude, when you watch him do a pull-up, he's kind of one of those guys that can bring the bar all the way down.

• 29:42Tim Ferriss?

  And does like the Swiss式style. The typewriter and all that stuff.

• 29:45Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, like you know that, like, we're like, yeah, you can walk with your feet.

• 29:48Tim Ferriss?

  All the calisthenics, all the calisthenics stuff.

• 29:49Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, but he has a series of videos that teach you how to do finger strength training. And I bought his course and I'm doing this right now. All this could be, you got me into that wooden device.

• 30:03Tim Ferriss?

  The nug.

• 30:03Kevin Rose?

  The nug. So dude, you gotta watch his videos. They're amazing. And seriously, like Joe's really into them. Like this guy is, his name is Michael Eckert. You can find him on Instagram. And it's all about grip strength, pull-ups. He's not big, but he's shredded. When I think about like in the next 10 years, like I don't need to be big, big.

• 30:23Tim Ferriss?

  It's probably not.

• 30:24Kevin Rose?

  It's probably not.

• 30:25Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Especially for rock climbing.

• 30:27Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, you need to be lean, right? Like, and strong. And that's what I love about this. So I'm getting into, I'm doing these every single day. I've now won two days in.

• 30:39Kevin Rose?

  I'm getting into it, you know? Tell us about the nug, because that was something that you turned me on to.

• 30:43Tim Ferriss?

  The nug, I mean, I have it in my suitcase at the hotel here. It's just a simple little wooden device. Looks like a very large bar of soap with these different indentations carved into the sides.

• 30:55Kevin Rose?

  Like little finger indentations.

• 30:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. So you can use a carabiner to connect it to say a cable machine of some type in any gym. And look, you could use a loading pin and all this, then the other thing, a daisy chain, but let's put that aside. At a gym, you can use a cable and connect it through the loop with a carabiner and work on your hand strength.

• 31:15Kevin Rose?

  And you brought this to Santa Fe when we were out there doing that meditation thing.

• 31:18Tim Ferriss?

  I did, yeah. It's literally something small enough to slip into my sweatshirt pocket. So it's easy to travel with. I always travel with that and a band for multiple purposes, for like something called DNS kind of core exercises.

• 31:33Kevin Rose?

  Oh, yeah, I know DNS.

• 31:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so I use a band for that and it's incredibly easy to travel with. And then a handful of other things, something called an alpha ball, which I use for different types of kind of mobility. It's the size of like a very large, soft, softball. And all this stuff fits into the corner of suitcase. And then I'll do also something that maybe we haven't talked about called Abrahangs. Abrahamsen, Emil Abrahamsen, very well-known rock climber on YouTube. And Abrahangs.

• 32:08Kevin Rose?

  I'm writing this down right now.

• 32:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Abrahangs are pretty simple. I mean, it's partial body weight hangs in different positions for 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off for 10 minutes. And you do that twice a day. And it's very, very moderate in intensity.

• 32:24Kevin Rose?

  With like a wooden kind of rock climbing kind of like.

• 32:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you could use a hangboard. You could use, I mean, you could also use a pull-up bar, depending on how you position your hands. And that's what I was doing in Santa Fe, was that kind of stuff, 10 seconds on, 50 seconds off. And the endurance and strength gains that you get in your hands are just insane. I should say your lower arms. And it really helps. So I've been doing indoor climbing, but ultimately I'm like, you know what? This is stretch goal, multi pitch, outdoor Yosemite, that's just.

• 32:56Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Tim Ferriss?

  And I am deadly terrified of heights, just talking, like, I don't think, just looking at my hands, like, I'm sweaty just talking about heights.

• 33:05Kevin Rose?

  When I watched Free Solo, my hands were sweating the entire time.

• 33:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 33:09Kevin Rose?

  For people who haven't seen the documentary, even if you're not into rock climbing, like that is amazing.

• 33:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, watch Free Solo. It'll freak you out. So that's one that I'm thinking about going deep on. I'd say that's very high up on the list because.

• 33:21Kevin Rose?

  That's awesome, dude. We're gonna be, let's do that together. I'm into it.

• 33:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm into it. I am totally into it. I mean, the rock climbing, when approached in a reasonable way, like a systematic reasonable way, not with like crazy dyno movements on bouldering. Younger bodies can handle it, certain bodies can handle it. My body, not so much. Like I do not want to fall repeatedly from 10, 15 feet up. I'm just not into it. So in the case of doing it reasonably though, for instance, I spent a bunch of time, I've spent a lot of time in Utah and climbing in some of the Salt Lake City indoor gyms, you have incredible athletes. And I'll make that a little finer tuned. When I would go to the gym, it was generally like 11 a.m.

• 34:06Tim Ferriss?

  Who the hell goes to the rock climbing gym at 11 a.m. on a weekday? These are retirees and moms. So you would see, for instance, these like 60, 70, 75, almost 80-year-olds who are doing like 5'11" plus.

• 34:23Kevin Rose?

  This is when you were single, so that was like Prem Hutton.

• 34:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. Cougarville. And you would just see these people in their 60s and 70s doing things that I could not even imagine doing with complete inversion on overhangs.

• 34:38Kevin Rose?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:39Tim Ferriss?

  Like 60, 70 feet up, you had the national speed climbing team, you had Olympians. But more than like the young guns, right? The 15-year-olds are doing all this crazy stuff because they're impervious. It was the people in their 60s and 70s who were climbing every day that inspired me to want to take this more seriously. So I was like, okay, I want to play the long game here.

• 35:04Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Tim Ferriss?

  What can I do that's fun? It's a puzzle. There's a lot of Tetris.

• 35:09Kevin Rose?

  They literally call bouldering, they come problems.

• 35:12Tim Ferriss?

  Problems, yeah, exactly. And so there's a lot of brain power involved. And also, it's just to give an idea of the technicality, I mean, there are, for example, women who cannot do five pull-ups who can climb 513, 514. That's very, very, very, very, very hard, just for people who have no reference point, like world-class, like 514, 515. Like insane, insane. Like that's when you're in the magazines, right? And it's because of the technical depthness. And yeah, there's like apendix and other physiological factors that play into it. But that is a very long answer to your question of what I'm thinking about now, which is rock climbing.

• 35:58Tim Ferriss?

  Lately, navigating the financial landscape can feel like a full-time job and it's not a very fun full-time job. It's stressful, but it does not have to be that way. You can simplify. Wealthfront helps you tune out the noise and earn more on every dollar with sophisticated, easy-to-use products like their cash account. You get fee-free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts. And when you're ready to invest, transferring to their expert-built investing accounts is simple. For a limited time, my listeners can earn up to 4.30% variable APY on cash. What that means is on top of the 3.3% base APY from program banks, new cash account clients get an exclusive three-month 0.75% APY boost on up to $150,000.

• 36:41Tim Ferriss?

  Then they get another 0.25% APY increase by direct depositing $1,000 a month and maintaining a funded investing account. Terms and conditions apply. More than a million people trust Wealthfront. Check them out. Go to wealthfront.com/tim to claim your boost. That's wealthfront.com/tim. This is a paid endorsement of Wealthfront. Client experiences vary. Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank. Base APY as of January 30th, 2026, and subject to change. Details in the episode description.

• 37:14Tim Ferriss?

  The archery was great and the competition was fantastic. I love competing. However, archery is by definition incredibly solitary. Like you're just by yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again, thousands of times. And I've had enough of that in my life. I've hit my quota. I want to hang out with other people.

• 37:34Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, climbing is super social because you sit there and if neither of you can do it, you'll be like, ah. Like, what if you put your, like, foot in, like, that and, like, kind of lunged up that way and stretched? You know what I mean?

• 37:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and then you can ask other people for tips, like beta, right? Hey, can you give me some beta on this? It's fun.

• 37:52Kevin Rose?

  It's really fun.

• 37:52Tim Ferriss?

  I just love it. You know, I wanted to mention something if people haven't read it. The Blade itself, which is a series, it's not very long, I think it's two or three volumes by Joe Abercrombie. It's a fantasy novels. They're really good. The audiobooks are incredible. And the reason I thought of this, The Blade itself, is because of our conversation around Om and Toaster. And, you know, a friend of mine just died in a plane crash.

• 38:20Kevin Rose?

  Jesus.

• 38:21Tim Ferriss?

  Less than two weeks ago.

• 38:22Kevin Rose?

  With the one that, the NetJets one that went, oh, you knew him?

• 38:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Josh.

• 38:26Kevin Rose?

  Oh, God, that was a latitude, too.

• 38:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I know, I know, I know. So you just don't know when your time is up. And in The Blade itself, I mean, there are a lot of various, like, yeah, thanks. And we weren't, like, super close friends, but certainly, like, friendly, you know, acquaintances. Like, we've, it wouldn't be strange to text. And you just don't know when your time is up. And The Blade itself explores this in a million different dimensions. It's really, really outstanding. I've read, I say that as someone who's read a lot of fantasy. And it just talks about the randomness of life or death in a war, right? It's like you happen to, like, squat down, take a shit, and the guy next to you gets an arrow through the head. It's like, it's just dumb luck.

• 39:09Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 39:11Tim Ferriss?

  Which is a way to, I suppose, reiterate the gratitude piece that you were mentioning earlier. So, I mean, that's gonna be a tough act to follow. Where do you want to go from that?

• 39:23Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I mean, a few things. Let's change it up to, well, let's just go straight into, like, working out. Um, have you tried this?

• 39:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I have, actually.

• 39:32Kevin Rose?

  Okay, I really like it.

• 39:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Kevin Rose?

  So for people that are on audio, I just got turned on to this new protein called Pioneer Pastures. And it's 30 grams in this little tiny shake. It's A2, so it has lactose removed, and it's also from that special genetic cow. Do you know more about the A2? Can you speak to it?

• 39:47Tim Ferriss?

  I've heard about the A2. I don't know a whole lot about it. It's like the Holstein and some other cow and da, da, da, da, da. Apparently, more people tolerate A2 better than not.

• 39:57Kevin Rose?

  I don't get any stomach issues or anything with this type of whey protein. Anyway, this is not, I'm not an investor or any shit like that. This is, you can get it at Target or whatever. It's tasty as hell, and it's 30 grams. And I don't know, if you're trying to put a little muscle mass.

• 40:11Tim Ferriss?

  I love that this is next to the Lalo Tequila.

• 40:13Kevin Rose?

  Exactly. I mean, you can mix them if you want.

• 40:15Tim Ferriss?

  Everything a growing boy needs.

• 40:17Kevin Rose?

  Anyway, I just, I just wanted to know if you had tried it, because, like, we always, this is the random shit.

• 40:20Tim Ferriss?

  I've tried it. Yeah, I tried it.

• 40:21Kevin Rose?

  You like it?

• 40:22Tim Ferriss?

  I do, yeah. There's a gym, I can't remember exactly, I think in Brooklyn Barbell Club, where they sold this. And I tried it then, and I did, yeah, tolerated it super well, didn't get the grumpy guts, as one might.

• 40:33Kevin Rose?

  What's your favorite protein, out of curiosity?

• 40:37Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, my protein, I mean, this is a softball pitch, but funny you should ask, Kevin. Uh, I'm, look, I'm involved with this one, but, you know, you know what? It's like, I always disclose, have you noticed how few fucking people disclose what they're involved with? They're like, yeah, I've heard of this great thing, oh my God, and they never disclose they're involved. The fact that I'm involved.

• 40:57Kevin Rose?

  You can literally go to jail for that shit.

• 40:59Tim Ferriss?

  No, I know, but the FTC doesn't enforce that stuff. Anyway, I mean, right now, like, I'm traveling with Maui Nui, as usual. This one, though, is kind of interesting. I probably get 40% of my protein from Maui Nui venison. This is wild harvested Axis deer from Hawaii. There's a long story there, but incredibly nutrient-dense.

• 41:19Kevin Rose?

  I love this shit, and this is not an ad, but I do have a hard question for you, like, a real hard question. And this is how you know that it's not an ad, because you know what we're about to say.

• 41:27Tim Ferriss?

  Let's hear it.

• 41:28Kevin Rose?

  Processed meat nitrates.

• 41:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 41:31Kevin Rose?

  Linked to a lot of cancer and bad shit.

• 41:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 41:33Kevin Rose?

  What are your thoughts on that?

• 41:34Tim Ferriss?

  This is very, very, very minimally processed. So you can get summer sausage or the sticks, this is free of most of that bullshit.

• 41:42Kevin Rose?

  What do you think that is? Because it is real, like, people that eat more nitrate processed, ultra-processed meats.

• 41:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, if it's ultra-processed and the shelf life is, like, three years, I would raise an eyebrow and probably hit pause. So the fact of the matter is, most of this stuff that is minimally processed, almost definitionally, is not going to last very long on the shelf.

• 42:01Kevin Rose?

  What do they mean by minimally processed, when you see, like, a meat stick? Like, what do you think about that versus, is it the amount of salt content that creates the nitrates? Like, what?

• 42:10Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, it's actually, nitrates are a totally separate category. So you're, you're looking to, I think, an easy heuristic for this is just shelf life. Like, how long would this last?

• 42:21Kevin Rose?

  How long will those go?

• 42:22Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, your eye, your, your eyes are gonna be better than mine. If you can read this size two font on this, then you can tell me.

• 42:28Kevin Rose?

  I'm really good at that.

• 42:29Tim Ferriss?

  Give it a go. And I'll buy you some time. In the meantime.

• 42:33Kevin Rose?

  27 years.

• 42:34Tim Ferriss?

  No, just kidding.

• 42:35Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 42:36Tim Ferriss?

  25 years.

• 42:37Kevin Rose?

  It doesn't say on here.

• 42:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it'll say somewhere on the box. There we go.

• 42:41Kevin Rose?

  Oh, 27?

• 42:41Tim Ferriss?

  Best Buy. Yeah, 27. So it's like, less than one year, I think, actually, looking at it here.

• 42:45Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yep. So.

• 42:47Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, less than one year. Wow.

• 42:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and what makes this interesting is that this, I give also, Molly looks really good for 12 years.

• 42:55Kevin Rose?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:56Tim Ferriss?

  I give her probably two or three of these a week. The way I think of this, this is peppered 10, so there are a bunch of these different sticks. Like, every professional team you can imagine uses these things in their training. But this is made with wild harvested venison, liver, and heart. So it has some organ meat in it. You do not taste that, it just tastes like regular jerky stick. But I treat this like a multivitamin. So it's like, I take, let's call it two or three of these a week, and limit it to that. And then the rest of the time, I'm taking their other, either peppered or regular sticks. But this is, when I'm on the go, I mean, literally, this was in my bag when I got here, right?

• 43:37Tim Ferriss?

  When I'm on the go, I'm traveling with this, probably some nuts of some type, like pistachios or whatever. Walnuts, pretty good for a host of reasons. And that's about it. I mean, I might have a couple of servings of exogenous ketones, but I haven't taken that stuff in a couple of months.

• 43:55Kevin Rose?

  You told me, you freaked me out. It messes up your liver.

• 43:58Tim Ferriss?

  This is a controversial topic, so, yeah, there are certain exogenous ketones. It contains something called 1,3 butane dial. It's very common. And there's a lot of debate around this. So the jury is still out. But some people believe that that can produce liver toxicity. So I consume anything with 1,3 butane dial in moderation. Now, to play, not devil's advocate, but to do a counterpoint, a lot of the people who are putting forth that hypothesis or claiming that's true, are selling their own ketone salts. So they're actually selling a competitive product. So, question mark, question mark. You can look at the peer-reviewed literature and decide for yourself.

• 44:43Tim Ferriss?

  What I have decided personally is that you should use the exogenous ketones very intermittently. I have experimented a lot with every type of exogenous ketone you can imagine, and.

• 44:55Kevin Rose?

  I mean, you got me on that good shit. It's expensive as hell, but like, that stuff goes straight to your head. The one that you didn't want to talk about.

• 45:01Tim Ferriss?

  We can talk about it.

• 45:02Kevin Rose?

  You know what's funny is, like, when Tim, this is how you know it's good. Off camera, Tim's like, I don't want to mention the brand, because if I do, it'll sell out and I won't be able to get my own supply. And that's how I knew, I was like, that's some good shit. And Tim wants to guard his own supply of it. Like, you know it's good.

• 45:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and, and it is good, but it's BHB. I won't get too much into the technicality here, but it's beta-hydroxybutyrate bonded to 1,3 butane dial. So you're still getting that 1,3 butane dial, which means you should take it in moderation. But in a pinch, when you want it for a podcast or something like that, man, it really works.

• 45:40Kevin Rose?

  It does work.

• 45:41Tim Ferriss?

  It really works. And, I mean, I've given it to relatives with dementia. And within 20 minutes, their sentences have, like, 5Xed in length, and they're more acute verbally. It's wild.

• 45:53Kevin Rose?

  How do you give it? I wish they had it in pill form, because in some sense, it's really hard to give that to someone that has dementia, because it's like, it tastes like gasoline.

• 46:01Tim Ferriss?

  It doesn't taste great. It's not the worst thing. I mean, I've had a lot of foul stuff in my life. I shot with this person, and I was like, I'll do it with you. And then we went out for a walk, and that was it. There are some concerns around 1,3 butane dial and balance. So particularly in older adults, you do not want to contribute to any risk of breaking a hip. That's just the death knell for a lot of people.

• 46:29Kevin Rose?

  I just had to put my mom into a different home that has, it's actually kind of cool, it's sad, because she's been falling. They have this, like, new AI orb that sits up there, and it kind of does, like, a kind of radar-type situation. And it detects falls.

• 46:42Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow.

• 46:43Kevin Rose?

  So the second she falls in the home, like, they can rush in and, like, help her out and all that.

• 46:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Kevin Rose?

  They carpet the hell out of it now and stuff like that.

• 46:50Tim Ferriss?

  How do you think about pre-grieving that or contending with that yourself?

• 46:55Kevin Rose?

  In terms of?

• 46:56Tim Ferriss?

  With family, that's rough. I mean, it doesn't sound easy.

• 47:00Kevin Rose?

  You know.

• 47:01Tim Ferriss?

  Because if you, like, play forward the tape, right? It's like, I mean, I think about this with my own parents, and it's just like, nobody lasts forever, you know?

• 47:07Kevin Rose?

  It's, it's one of those things where, it's so funny, because when you're a teenager, and I remember when my dad was having a hard time standing, and this was, like, when I was much younger, before he passed. And I was like, oh, Dad's gonna be in, like, the thing that I might have to, like, push him on it if he has to sit down. Kind of those walkers, it can also be something you can push somebody on. I was so embarrassed, you know? I was like, oh, our people are looking at us or whatever. And now I, like, push my mom with pride, like, in the inner, like, walker thing, and I'm like, I don't know. You don't know when it's gonna, what's gonna happen, but it's like, the only thing you can do is just make sure to show up, you know, and hang out. And I'm very lucky that I, my mom has dementia, but it's, it is a type that, it's not Alzheimer's. So it's like, it's probably vascular or something.

• 47:49Kevin Rose?

  So I can walk in and she knows who I am. She can't tell you what she had for breakfast, but she knows who I am. But she's like, I'll take that all day long. I know you have family members that are in the same boat.

• 47:58Tim Ferriss?

  I have a ton of family members with Alzheimer's. I mean, literally got a call from one of my relatives wanting to discuss interventions. And it's a tough conversation, because there really isn't much. Like, you have to, as far as I can tell, act preemptively. Which is why, actually, this relates to another bullet of mine. I.

• 48:21Kevin Rose?

  You have five?

• 48:22Tim Ferriss?

  What was that?

• 48:23Kevin Rose?

  I was, how many, how many bullets did you have?

• 48:25Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, how many bullets, yeah. That was good. Of all, of all the rye whiskeys, it's the only one that I can tolerate. I loathe stationary bikes. I just, I really find stationary biking to be one of the most soul crushing things in the world. It's the worst. However, yeah, I mean, I've tried Peloton and didn't like their ergonomics and so on for a bunch of reasons. And then I have tried very expensive, very, very expensive setups recommended to me by fancy doctors and so on, which are just like too uncomfortable. Like I'm incredibly hunched over. Like my back is basically parallel with the floor. Dude, what are you talking about? And I'm like kneading myself in the stomach. It's so uncomfortable.

• 49:10Tim Ferriss?

  Like crunching machines? No, no, I'm talking about getting on like a stationary bike, but if you're like a racing position, you have to adopt this hunchback. And like, there are a million reasons why I find that uncomfortable. There is a bike, however, it's very easy to find. It's pretty common in public gyms called the Kaiser M3I Studio Indoor Bike. I don't know why they have to make it so difficult and it's nomenclature, but the Kaiser M3I is unique in my experience in that you can elevate the handlebars enough to sit in a comfortable position with a decent saddle, meaning the seat, such that I can do the

• 49:50Tim Ferriss?

  V2 and the V4 and all of that training for me in a comfortable position without compromising my low back, which has been a huge step forward. So this is the only bike that I've used consistently for this kind of training. And I was having a number of conversations with a neuroscientist named Dr. Tommy Wood over a period of weeks. And if, for instance, you do something called the Norwegian four by four, there's data to suggest that it's VO2 max training. So it's very, very, very intense, but it's like Four on bra. Like four minutes on, three to four minutes off. Let's just call it three minutes, four minutes on, three minutes off. And you do that for four rounds. This is the only bike that I've been able to use to do this consistently. And if you do that for, I think

• 50:34Tim Ferriss?

  it's three times a week for five to six months, the volumetric changes, meaning the neuroanatomical changes in the hippocampus and other areas that are certainly indicated in things like Alzheimer's lasts for up to five years. Wow. So if you do five to six months of gutting it out three times a week, the results Holy shit. The dividends pay off for, it seems, up to or possibly beyond five years. Holy shit. Crazy. So that's Throw in some sauna on there and you're like, good to go. Well, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing, you know, I'm doing all the usual stuff, right? I'm doing the sauna and don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, okay, sure. You don't have 30 minutes to do, like do 10 minutes. Like you can't do a sauna, take a hot bath, like Yeah.

• 51:19Tim Ferriss?

  Figure it out. You know what my good is that I like? It's not perfect, but it's good, which is I go on my treadmill. I set it to 4.75 or some incline. Yeah. So it's like not crazy, but it's not, you know, I can still do shit. Yeah. And I set it to only like 2.5 on the walking. Yeah. And I'll play Duolingo chess because they have chess on there now for Duolingo. Oh, I didn't know that. They teach you chess. It's amazing. That's cool. And you can play friends and live people and all that stuff. And they do game replays and they teach, and I'm learning a ton. And 30, 40 minutes go by and you're drenched in sweat. I know it's not high intensity and all the benefits on the cognitive side seem to be around like a lot of high end. Yeah, but who knows? But it's good. It's doing something.

• 52:04Tim Ferriss?

  It's doing something, right? So I've really enjoyed that. Like if you, if you just want something to both be learning and engaged and kind of like having fun. Yeah. So you forget about the time. Do you know what I'm talking about? Where it's like, you're just like, oh wait, what time is it? Oh shit, I've been on for 37 minutes. I can get off now, you know? Yeah. I love that type of cardio. Yeah. I mean, for me, I mean, this is going to sound like maybe a step down, but it's like the older I get, the more I realize like a little goes a long way. Yesterday, for instance, like I had a bunch of stuff stacked up and I won't bore people with the commitments, but I didn't really have any time to go to the gym. And it was my day to go to the gym to do X, Y, and Z exercises. And I went in and I did like three sets. I was literally

• 52:46Tim Ferriss?

  in there for five minutes and I left. But it's better than nothing. Right. Totally. Right? Something is better than nothing. I'm not going to go to the Olympics with that approach. Yeah. But let's fucking be real, I'm not going to the Olympics. You never gonna listen. I mean, maybe it's like a bystander. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. You know, I'll throw some new random stuff in there. There's a study that got my attention. It's been out since 2025, September 22. This is in JAMA. And this is the title, "Single Treatment with MM120," and then in parentheses, "Lacerjide," I think is how that's pronounced, "in generalized anxiety disorder." So this is GAD.

• 53:29Tim Ferriss?

  This is GAD. This is a randomized clinical trial looking at anxiety, which is often comorbid, meaning happening at the same time as depressive disorders. And I think this is sponsored by a company called Definium, which used to be MindMed. In any case I know where this is going. I just looked it up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this, so what's interesting about this, and they're not going to maybe love my comparison, but so MM120, Lacerjide, I mean, it's comparable to LSD, right? And this is a multi-arm clinical trial. They did five arms, which is rare to do because the risk is that they'll blend together. So the arm means a group who has, is treated

• 54:13Tim Ferriss?

  with a different intervention in this, in this case. So they've got placebo, 25 micrograms, 50 micrograms, 100 micrograms, and 200 micrograms. 100 mics is That's, that's what they give standard for LSD. That's, that's what you can think of as a standard hit. Yeah. 100 micrograms. And the results are wild, man. If you look at the HAMA score, this is up to 12 weeks out. You can see, I'll just show you, how it's dose dependent. The more you take, basically the better it goes over up to, and I'm not sure how long the follow-ups continued, but where you land is you see that like the 100 micrograms and 200 are very, very close to each other. Yeah, yeah.

• 54:56Tim Ferriss?

  Like 25 and 50 are certainly a lot higher. Now, are you still getting the same psychedelic experience with this stuff? In the case of this particular compound, I don't know. My guess would be yes. I could be totally wrong in that. So Definium, feel free to correct me. I am guessing the answer is yes with MM120. But what that says to me is, hey, 12 weeks of relief with GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, which I've been clinically diagnosed with, that and OCD, like 12 weeks is pretty good. And it seems like at least according to the data in this study, the minimum effective dose would be 100 micrograms. Now, 100 micrograms, at

• 55:38Tim Ferriss?

  least for me and for a lot of people, you will be tripping your balls off, not to get too technical. Wait a second, dude, it says that this was done at Neuroscape at UCSF. Was it really? This is Adam's lab. No shit. Are you serious? I'm dead serious. I just clicked through on it. It says phase three trial of MM120 for GAD. Oh, that's amazing. This is our buddy. This is our buddy, Adam. Okay. Well, I have a text that I need to send then. Oh my God. That's awesome. I wonder if I indirectly funded this because I helped fund some of Neuroscape stuff. That's funny. Isn't that hilarious? Yeah, I did not look at that. That's hilarious. Small world. Yeah. Okay. There you go. So, you know, it's interesting for GAD, we were talking about

• 56:22Tim Ferriss?

  dementia. There's a case report with high dose psilocybe mushrooms. I don't think it was actually psilocybin synthesized, looking at this particular thing was a Japanese elderly woman with dementia, might, may have been Alzheimer's, who took, I can't believe they did this to her. Five grams, right? Yeah. And then she took five grams. So Terence McKenna, a Herok dose, somehow fell asleep for like 19 hours, something obscene, which would be very, very worrisome. Yeah. If you're like the child of said parent, wakes up and then starts having like full expositional conversations in contrast with her previous like monosyllabic or, or single

• 57:06Tim Ferriss?

  word responses to things. And it was transient. It didn't last forever, but it raises some very interesting questions. I've seen at least some case reports also with LSD producing similar effects. And I've been interested in this for probably a decade, right? Like I've kind of, I've hypothesized this could be the case. It's just like, do you really want to give your parent, like, under what circumstances is it ethical? Right. To give someone hallucinogens? See, I could never do that to my mom because she was always anti all this stuff. Yeah. And then the second, like, God forbid they have a bad trip. Like, why would you want to put them through that? You know? So, so it's curious. I was, I was sent something by, well, someone I won't mention,

• 57:50Tim Ferriss?

  but a very interesting case report on microdosing with LSD with someone with dementia. Did it work? Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. And in terms of, similar to the ketones, not saying the mechanism is the same, but producing much more verbal fluidity, right? Going from like, uh, I'm good. It depends. Right? I have relatives who are limited to that now. Like they're basically giving answers that are non answers. Yeah. Sounds good. Right? Like these things that you could use as a reply to anything. Right. They're not necessarily grocking what's happening.

• 58:27Tim Ferriss?

  To full paragraphs, right? Which means to my interpretation, it's like offline to online. Right? It's a really stark difference. Like, because with the one word, two word answers, like you don't actually know if they're

• 58:40Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 58:41Tim Ferriss?

  understanding what's happening.

• 58:42Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Tim Ferriss?

  So.

• 58:44Kevin Rose?

  Do you have some MM120 on you right now?

• 58:46Tim Ferriss?

  No, I don't. I don't. If I did, I would probably not take it tonight necessarily.

• 58:51Kevin Rose?

  If you see a weird cut in the video and then we get infinitely smarter.

• 58:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 58:56Kevin Rose?

  You'll know why.

• 58:57Tim Ferriss?

  Little glitch here, there.

• 58:58Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly. It's a flash and all of a sudden we're just like.

• 59:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, for the smarter, I would keep it probably to 20 mics or below. We'll see. But I found this pretty interesting for, for GAD especially, and then for the dementia piece, but it raises a lot of ethical questions. What is ethical to use as treatment and someone who cannot give consent?

• 59:17Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 59:19Tim Ferriss?

  That's a tough, gnarly problem. Right?

• 59:22Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 59:23Tim Ferriss?

  Especially if you're dealing with stuff that is not exactly prescription medication.

• 59:27Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing. If it goes sideways, you feel like an asshole.

• 59:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, yeah, to put it mildly.

• 59:33Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, to put it mildly. But if, if it's amazing and it gives you another, you know, half day with a parent or a loved one and you can full on have conversations and they see you and you see them in a way that you hadn't in six months, like, or a year, that's amazing, right?

• 59:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, or if it potentially slows the decline.

• 59:52Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 59:53Tim Ferriss?

  I think it's too much to hope for a reversal, frankly.

• 59:56Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Tim Ferriss?

  But there are some strange phenomena out there, man. Like, there's this phenomenon called terminal lucidity, where someone like on their deathbed when they've been vegetative.

• 1:00:06Kevin Rose?

  I've heard of this. And like. There's that book that I told you read. Did you read that?

• 1:00:09Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not sure.

• 1:00:09Kevin Rose?

  The afterlife book?

• 1:00:10Tim Ferriss?

  No, I didn't read that.

• 1:00:10Kevin Rose?

  Okay. Cause they talk about that.

• 1:00:12Tim Ferriss?

  But this is well documented, where people suddenly, they have been basically vegetative.

• 1:00:16Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:00:16Tim Ferriss?

  Or completely unable to respond to any stimulus.

• 1:00:20Kevin Rose?

  They come fully lucid, yeah.

• 1:00:21Tim Ferriss?

  They become totally lucid and they can have full blown, extensive conversations.

• 1:00:25Kevin Rose?

  That's why I know.

• 1:00:26Tim Ferriss?

  What the fuck is going on there?

• 1:00:27Kevin Rose?

  Dude, I'm telling you, it is so weird to me that we think like, like a lot of the things that we do in physical form, like what we do in life, like mimics nature in many ways. And all of our data is like backed up in the cloud. And we're like, oh, we're not backed up in the cloud in any way. And then there's these people with like full blown entanglements in their brain, full on, you know, the Alzheimer's for like a decade and they become completely lucid? Where is that coming from?

• 1:00:54Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I see what you're saying. I was, I wasn't tracking that fully for a second. If it's, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's like, if it's all localized. No, I'm saying like, if all of that ability is localized within the confines of the skull, how do you explain?

• 1:01:09Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:01:10Tim Ferriss?

  This, given all the structural deterioration.

• 1:01:13Kevin Rose?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:01:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I don't have good answers for that. I just don't. It is a well documented, as far as I know, a well documented phenomenon. So it's like, go figure that one out. I mean, I'm not qualified, way above my pay grade. Crazy, man. It's wild. So I'll give a shout out to somebody, we're not going to open this right now, because we'll start chewing on them and it'll be the, we'll be up all night.

• 1:01:33Kevin Rose?

  Is it the 120?

• 1:01:34Tim Ferriss?

  No, this is Neutonic, N-E-U-T-O-N-I-C, no tropics. See, that's a pun, no tropics, because these are toothpicks that I was given by a podcaster you may recognize named Chris Williamson. And they have, they have like 20, I want to say 20, I might be getting that off, but like 20, 25 milligrams of caffeine in each toothpick.

• 1:01:58Kevin Rose?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:59Tim Ferriss?

  And there are a couple of other no tropics, AKA smart drugs.

• 1:02:02Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, smart drugs in there. And they're great.

• 1:02:06Kevin Rose?

  You just like suck on a toothpick.

• 1:02:07Tim Ferriss?

  Because if I have cups of coffee, I will chug a cup of coffee and then if it gets refilled, I'll chug another cup of coffee and it's a problem. These actually is, in terms of pacing, have been fantastic. So that's been my sort of, not exactly coitus interruptus for people to get that, but ad libidum interruptus, avoiding overconsumption of coffee and other stimulants. This helps me to kind of pace it, because even if I chew on this thing until it's fragments of wood, max I can squeeze out of it is 20, 25 milligrams.

• 1:02:38Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, what else you got, Kevin?

• 1:02:41Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I mean, the only other thing that I have that I think is interesting is, is what's happening in the world of, I don't want to talk a lot about AI, because I'm just frankly AI'd out, but I will say that the idea that we can all now kind of take control of our productivity and pretty much anything that we want to control now, like device wise, we can do with just a simple, a few simple prompts on AI. And I had a buddy that came over to my house and he was like, hey, you got cameras in your house? I have something called ubiquity, which is like, they have cameras and they're, it's a very common kind of household type situation when you want to have security system, front

• 1:03:20Kevin Rose?

  door thing, cameras, sensors, water detectors underneath your, they think in case things leak and you're out of town, whatever. And so I've got this whole setup and he's like, hey, you know, they have a full on API where you can just tell Claude or whatever to code against it? And I was like, okay, that's interesting. Like, what can I do? And so the cameras now have AI sensors where they can detect who it is that's walking in. So it's like, oh, Tim's coming up to your door. Oh, that's your daughter, that's your dog. What, it detects my dog, toaster, like sees him and it puts like a little dog emblem above his head when he's walking around and it knows that it's toaster.

• 1:03:59Kevin Rose?

  But the crazy shit is, I was like, okay, well, what if I can go further and I can tell it to do actions? There's a speaker hooked up to it as well, so that's for security. So basically, if anyone loiterers in my alleyway and it detects it, it's like, I have, I play some like really funky shit where it's like detected, like loiterer in the alleyway, like whatever, and just to scare people off in case they're.

• 1:04:23Tim Ferriss?

  I am the Batman.

• 1:04:25Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, well, you could draw little areas around like the, where they're, like they shouldn't be, which is like at your door, fiddling with your door and say, if they stand here for more than 30 seconds, play said audio out of speaker. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. Well, what if, when I walk in my house, if I'm wearing like a hat of like my favorite sports team and they're playing, it like reads me the scores like I walk in. So like, you can think about all these things where it's like, it's doing stuff based on your activity. So like, if you're out there gardening, it's like, it'll be like, hey, Kevin, I noticed that the plant over here wasn't watered enough. So it's watching all of this stuff. And so there's a lot of if, then, then that kind of situation.

• 1:05:10Kevin Rose?

  Like, if I see you doing X, so like, the latest I have is like, I programmed it so when it sees the license plate on my car, it automatically knows to open the gate, because it knows it's me.

• 1:05:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

• 1:05:22Kevin Rose?

  And the camera looks at the license plate on the freaking car, checks it against the database and allows me in. How crazy is that? And this is like, for people that are listening, I'm not talking about like $10,000 systems. The camera's like $200. Anyone can do this at home, you know? And it's just wild to think about, finally, we had all these kind of discreet systems that, I had some Nest stuff and I had some Google Home stuff and I had, now they're all talking to each other. So you can just do kind of really crazy. I know you would like this, because you're the kind of person that, you've told me before, like, you don't like to answer your door, because if the delivery person is like, Tim, then all of a sudden your address is like all over the internet.

• 1:06:02Tim Ferriss?

  Docs, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I know you said you don't, I'm also pretty AI'd out, but at the same time, it's like, I can't resist going back to the opium den. It's so fascinating.

• 1:06:13Kevin Rose?

  What are you doing now with the, with the AI stuff?

• 1:06:14Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I mean, I'm more curious to hear your thoughts and predictions, frankly, because I think you're better at it. But, I mean, I'm using Claude code with various APIs to do tons of like inbox analysis and stuff, right? I'm doing a 20 year retrospective analysis of angel investing. It's like, who made what introductions? Which companies did I not reply to that ended up being successes? Which did I turn down that ended up being really important?

• 1:06:42Kevin Rose?

  You really want to go to yourself.

• 1:06:44Tim Ferriss?

  I suspected it'd be worse than it was. I actually have not, I haven't missed that many explicit opportunities. I wanted to test my own stories against data, right? Cause I have all sorts of stories.

• 1:06:58Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:06:58Tim Ferriss?

  About why I did certain things, why certain things worked out. And I have certain stories about my batting average. And I'm like, but is it true?

• 1:07:08Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:07:08Tim Ferriss?

  Really? Is it really true? Like, let's look at some hard numbers.

• 1:07:13Kevin Rose?

  The sad truth, and I have a buddy that wears the bracelet and you see me with the necklace around the, it categorizes your AI and listens to you 24/7.

• 1:07:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:07:21Kevin Rose?

  It's about 70 ish percent that we think we know, but is actually what we know. Like, out of the 100% of like what we think we know, like, this is the truth. Like, I said, I wanted a dark chocolate bar at 7:00 PM. It's like, nah, you set it at 5:00 and you set it this way, you know?

• 1:07:38Tim Ferriss?

  And you said it was milk chocolate.

• 1:07:39Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's always about 20% off from where you actually think your brain's at.

• 1:07:44Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:07:44Kevin Rose?

  Which is, is brutal.

• 1:07:46Tim Ferriss?

  Well, plus, I mean, that's like last week, right? If you're talking about like 15 years ago.

• 1:07:50Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:07:50Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, if you listen to any genesis story of any startup, you're like, ah, wait a minute now, like, this is like a startup comic working on material, but he's been working on this one five minute bit so long that now he believes that's actually truth?

• 1:08:04Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Tim Ferriss?

  The sanitizing and the editing of these startup genesis stories is hilarious and there's no reason to think that I would be or you would be exempt from it.

• 1:08:12Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:08:13Tim Ferriss?

  Right? When you're telling your own story, even if you're just telling it to yourself.

• 1:08:16Kevin Rose?

  What's the number one thing that you've learned by applying AI to your life in this fashion? Like, what's the thing where you walked away and said like, damn, that was like insightful and I'm going to change my behavior? Or I learned something new about myself that I wouldn't have if I had not used AI?

• 1:08:31Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I think from a holistic health perspective, by holistic, I mean, having enough data related to medications, supplements, predispositions, side effects, what happened to me two weeks ago? The LLMs have been incredibly helpful. The picture that they get and the speed with which they can deliver an answer that I can interrogate is just incredible.

• 1:08:55Kevin Rose?

  So what did you learn? Like, what was the thing that you?

• 1:08:57Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I mean, honestly, it's, it's mostly avoiding disaster, right? It's like, what can I, are any of these things contraindicated with one another? Could A, B, or C explain D? And you have to keep in mind, these things can still hallucinate, but you can, I don't want to say eliminate that, but minimize it by just fact checking across LLMs. There's that. I would say that there's a lot of insight on, hopefully, that can translate to future decision making related to investing, which is, investing for me is not just.

• 1:09:31Tim Ferriss?

  Amassing more chips, it's what's fun about investing to me is it's a way to scorecard your thinking and decision making. It's just a very objective way to decide if something was the right or the wrong decision. And you can fine slice that and there are ways that you could maybe question that. But if you're asking yourself, was I thinking well last month? That's not a very helpful question. Where do you go from there? Right? If you're logging maybe every decision you make every day and then trying to cross-reference outcomes with blah, blah, blah, like, yeah, but you're never going to do that. But when you're making relatively frequent investments, you can do that. You can also run counterfactuals. What if I did the opposite? What if I had not sold that?

• 1:10:16Tim Ferriss?

  What if I had kept that? What if I had done this? What if I had done that?

• 1:10:19Kevin Rose?

  Is that worth your time, though? At the end of the day, you could throw everything into S and P 500 and just go to bed.

• 1:10:24Tim Ferriss?

  Well, there's that. I would say it's worth it to me because I find it interesting. I actually enjoy the intellectual exercise of it. But otherwise, I would say with, in terms of like how AI has impacted me, I would say that the honest answer is not that much because most shit isn't worth doing in the first place. People are finding very, very clever ways to expedite automating workflows of all different types and doing something well does not make it important or worth doing in the first place. So there's a lot, I think the level of bullshit that is being done, just at a very fast, efficient rate is skyrocketing.

• 1:11:04Tim Ferriss?

  But simultaneously, like, there are definitely cases where I look back at, say, this analysis of 20 years of stuff. To do that manually would be impossible. It would take me a year full time with multiple people to do that. And with a Claude code, like Gmail API and leaving my computer running for a handful of hours a few times, it's like, what you get back is fucking incredible.

• 1:11:31Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:32Tim Ferriss?

  It's unbelievable. And I haven't even scratched the surface.

• 1:11:35Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:36Tim Ferriss?

  I will say also, another way that AIs maybe affected my life in a net negative way, and I'm not, we have another mutual friend who maybe we shouldn't name, who feels very similarly, is, we'll bleep that out, but yeah. Jesus Christ. So if you train AIs on your writing, they're really good.

• 1:11:59Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Tim Ferriss?

  And I think I feel, this is a stretch of a comparison, obviously, because I'm not an adept, like, a world-class Go player, but when AlphaGo defeated one of the top Korean players, he was kind of like, I'm done. Like, I don't find joy in this anymore.

• 1:12:16Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17Tim Ferriss?

  Like, if we're playing against machines.

• 1:12:18Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Tim Ferriss?

  And when I see these AIs very beautifully, I'm not going to lie, we're like in the top of the first inning. This stuff is going to get so much better. Spit out stuff that is so much better.

• 1:12:33Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I can still write, but what they can do in 30 seconds is what would take me 30 hours.

• 1:12:39Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:12:40Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm just like, fuck. It really drains the motivation for me to put in those 30 hours.

• 1:12:46Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47Tim Ferriss?

  Why wouldn't it? Of course it would, right?

• 1:12:49Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, but in some sense, you can consider it a really good co-pilot because for it to come up with novel ideas that would engage an audience, that's still the holy grail where it's not quite there yet. Right? Like, it's going to make you sound, it's going to button up your copy and it might expand upon it in ways that you wouldn't, but it's not going to come up with the original thesis for the whole thing, right?

• 1:13:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's going to have trouble with the original thesis, but even there, I think it does a pretty good job.

• 1:13:19Kevin Rose?

  Really? It's getting better. I haven't tried with writing stuff.

• 1:13:22Tim Ferriss?

  Well, if you just do a data dump and you're like, create.

• 1:13:24Kevin Rose?

  Oh, you sent me that link.

• 1:13:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, if you just do a data dump, you're like, create.

• 1:13:28Kevin Rose?

  You sent me that link, you were like, what should Tim do in the next five years?

• 1:13:31Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah, that was good.

• 1:13:32Kevin Rose?

  That was really interesting. Tell people what you did, because they might find this, it applies to their own life.

• 1:13:37Tim Ferriss?

  Sure. So you could do this in whichever model you're using, whether it's Claude or ChatGPT or whatever. If it knows you.

• 1:13:45Kevin Rose?

  You can tie in your inbox, too.

• 1:13:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you can tie in your inbox. In my case, I didn't do that, but if it has enough history on you, you can just ask, what do you think I should do in the next five years? What might be some rewarding paths of exploration? I think I put something like that. What are three to five ideas that you think could be rewarding career exploration for me in the next X period of time?

• 1:14:12Kevin Rose?

  So if people are asking, if they've used AI for, let's call it three to six months, and you've probably given it several hundred things to think about.

• 1:14:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:14:20Kevin Rose?

  It will span across those conversations, as long as you turn this on. I think it's on by default now, but it used to be an opt-in thing, where you'd say, allow the AI to look across conversation.

• 1:14:30Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:14:31Kevin Rose?

  So it has a holistic understanding of who you are.

• 1:14:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and the answers were fucking outstanding.

• 1:14:35Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, really, really good.

• 1:14:37Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:38Tim Ferriss?

  I sent it to a few friends, sent it to you, I sent it to a few of my closest friends, and they're like, that's pretty fucking good.

• 1:14:43Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. It was really cool. Some of the ideas, I was like, damn, you should do that, dude. It had this one business idea for you to do, and it wasn't a book.

• 1:14:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:52Kevin Rose?

  And I was like, dude, I texted you back, I was like, that's awesome. Like, go, go build that.

• 1:14:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, there's, I mean, there were, there were business ideas, there were certainly kind of non-revenue, but philosophically aligned ideas. It was shocking to me. So that's actually a very good example of something that has deeply informed what I'm mulling over, as I imagine the future. I was like, man, that actually is a really good, because, keeping in mind, I'm asking questions about things of interest, things I like, things I don't like. I am asking questions about different scientific interests related to SciSafe Foundation, my nonprofit foundation. I'm asking questions about investing, I'm asking questions about writing, I'm asking questions about relationships, I'm asking questions about organizing trips for friends, I'm asking so many different questions.

• 1:15:42Kevin Rose?

  Am I still on the board of your nonprofit?

• 1:15:43Tim Ferriss?

  I think you're like secretary or something?

• 1:15:45Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 1:15:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, maybe you're honorably discharged.

• 1:15:53Kevin Rose?

  I don't think you did. I never got to get more grounded. I haven't heard anything in like three years. I'm like, okay.

• 1:15:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, I said it was going to be a light lift. It's a light lift.

• 1:16:00Kevin Rose?

  For a light lift.

• 1:16:01Tim Ferriss?

  And, I mean, that's a very good example, right? I mean, that may be the best example, because if that even 10% informs, like, a major next chapter.

• 1:16:11Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Tim Ferriss?

  Holy shit, like, that's a big deal for me, certainly. And it makes me think a little bit about podcast listeners, especially, readers also, but to a greater extent, podcast listeners who come up to me. And most listeners I run into are really great, and there are always a couple of weirdos, but most are fantastic. And they'll say something often, like, I'm so sorry you don't know me at all, and I feel like I know you. And what I say a lot of the time is, actually, if you listen to my podcasts every week or even every month, you do know me pretty well.

• 1:16:48Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:49Tim Ferriss?

  And then you think about a machine that never forgets.

• 1:16:54Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Tim Ferriss?

  It's going to know you pretty damn well.

• 1:16:58Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:16:59Tim Ferriss?

  And it's spooky in a way.

• 1:17:00Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Tim Ferriss?

  But I started getting more out of the LLMs when I started asking questions. And I have to be, I think, a little careful with outsourcing this and absolving yourself of responsibility to think about these things. But when you ask it open-ended, personal questions in the way that you would ask a close friend, what do you think are three to five creative ways I might explore things professionally in the next five years?

• 1:17:26Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:27Tim Ferriss?

  As opposed to something that you think is more suitable for a robot.

• 1:17:32Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Tim Ferriss?

  You get some really interesting responses.

• 1:17:36Kevin Rose?

  It's so cool. That's a great use case.

• 1:17:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Kevin Rose?

  The one thing I've been playing around with lately that I haven't told you about yet, but, you know, I think about all these AI startups and everyone that's creating all these different apps and all that stuff. And for me, it's kind of fun to watch, is it kind of bystander being like, oh, cool, you're going to make this. But I really want to explore things that just no one has done before. It's always been interesting to me, more than just like iterative, kind of like, standing down under the rough edges. A lot of startups will go out there and be like, hey, you know what sucks is, you know, word processing doesn't do this, so I'm going to like, make a slightly better word processor. I'm just making this up. But I like the kind of like wild or crazier, like, I'd rather have it fail and say I did something new than just do something boring.

• 1:18:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Oh, I get it.

• 1:18:22Kevin Rose?

  And so lately, what I've done.

• 1:18:24Tim Ferriss?

  Part of why I have so many fatalities.

• 1:18:26Kevin Rose?

  Somebody with fatalities, yeah, exactly, same. What I've done lately is I've, I went and bought a bunch of these decks of cards on Amazon that are values cards. Meaning like they give you like a deck of a hundred things and like, what are your core values? And you're like empathy or kindness or like you'd like flip through them. And the way they typically work is that you have like a really high value, a medium and a low value. And then you put them into different stacks and then you walk away and you say, oh, this is my high value stack of things that are my core values that mean a lot to me. And it might be 10 or 15 different cards. And what's interesting is to do that with your friends and partners and things like that, and then compare them and say, hey, what do we align on? What we don't align on? And I can imagine for like an intimate partner,

• 1:19:10Kevin Rose?

  this would be a pretty important thing to do. And so I started there. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to scan these cards in, and then I'm going to pare it down and make these core values where you come in and say, this matters to me. And come almost like a like a swiping like, you know, dating app or something like, yes, I'm into.

• 1:19:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, I'm into empathy. No, I'm not.

• 1:19:27Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly. And so you, but you swipe through them. And then when you're done with that, then you've got your list of like, these values and they can change over time. And so I think the important thing is to log that and say, these are my values today, but tomorrow, one might shift a little bit. And then I thought about contractual bonds. And so like the working title I have for it is just called bond, where I can say like, with a partner, I'm going to create a contract with you where we both have to shake on it, meaning like a virtual shake, like you think of it as almost like a SimCity like situation. This is my city. This is her city, or a friend's city. And we're going to agree that I take the trash out every Tuesday night. And there's an emotional shake on both sides. And if I

• 1:20:09Kevin Rose?

  break this bond, it results in what? And so from the partner's side, it will result in a one to 10 on how much damaging this is to me. So not taking the trash out, probably be like, ah, that sucks because the trash is going to overflow. That's probably a three to most people, right? Then I kind of get negative points in case I break that bond. But what's interesting, though, that will link back to a core value of theirs and a core value of mine. And I want to show up as a good partner and there'll be a core value associated with that. And then you could see those bonds between multiple people. And the reason I say this is because I've always been one of these people historically that has said yes to so many things. And then I bail last minute. I'm the worst at that, you know, where I'm like, I'm in. And then I'm like, I'm an introvert. I'm out,

• 1:20:53Kevin Rose?

  you know, like the last minute, right? And so I just think that there needs to be a system where almost like a LinkedIn for like, values and trust and bonds. There's a great Wu-Tang quote that's like, word is bond. And ultimately, like, I really believe that, like, there's something really cool about saying, you know, we have the better Business Bureau. That's like, the best we got. Oh, this person like, they did well by their customers 2000 times. What about individuals in saying like, hey, this person was always empathetic towards me, or this person was kind and helped me move on a Sunday?

• 1:21:26Tim Ferriss?

  What prompted all this?

• 1:21:28Kevin Rose?

  I don't know. I'm just thinking about it. Just like, the thing I think about is that there's

• 1:21:33Tim Ferriss?

  Such a dissatisfying answer.

• 1:21:34Kevin Rose?

  No, hold on. Let me give you the real answer. I call this dark information.

• 1:21:38Tim Ferriss?

  Dark information?

• 1:21:38Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. So dark information is information that exists in the real world, but we have yet to put in physical form. And so right now, you and I have a trust thing.

• 1:21:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Kevin Rose?

  You know that if the camera was turned off, there are certain things that you can tell me that you're pretty certain I will not tell anyone else. Every once in a while I do. But you will know, you know where that line is, right? But that hasn't been concretized in any type of like, visual real format. And so there's something interesting. I'm just brainstorming with you in real time.

• 1:22:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:10Kevin Rose?

  We've had a couple of drinks, but like, my point is, if there was a system where I could say, I've created these bonds, I've built up this reputation, but it would also give me a way to reflect back and be like, oh, you know what? I can see now historically that I've often bailed on events that I've signed up for. Let me improve that in myself. The whole point of what you brought up a minute ago was, if I use AI to go back historically and look across things, I can detect these trends and then make course corrections based on those trends, right?

• 1:22:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Kevin Rose?

  And so there's something interesting about this idea of, there are these different facets. So there's these like emotional facets that we have with every individual. How might we track those?

• 1:22:51Tim Ferriss?

  What jumps out at me about this is, maybe a cool use case would be identifying, you could write it out, or you could have cards, your values, but maybe to put a finer point on it, the type of person you believe yourself to be.

• 1:23:07Kevin Rose?

  Right. Because it's very different than what people perceive you to be.

• 1:23:09Tim Ferriss?

  Or the type of person you want to be.

• 1:23:11Kevin Rose?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:23:11Tim Ferriss?

  And then it's like, let's take a look at your calendar and your email and your iMessage to see how much your story of what you think you are, or what you want to be, matches up with your behavior.

• 1:23:21Kevin Rose?

  So I built

• 1:23:22Tim Ferriss?

  And then you get a report card.

• 1:23:23Kevin Rose?

  I built a prototype for exactly this. So remember, maybe seven years ago, you did a 360 review for me?

• 1:23:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Those things are brutal.

• 1:23:30Kevin Rose?

  For people that don't know what 360 reviews are, is like, you give 10 of your friends to somebody, they interview them, they collect all the data anonymously.

• 1:23:38Tim Ferriss?

  Could also be like coworkers, employees, bosses, whatever.

• 1:23:41Kevin Rose?

  Whatever. And then you get a report back being like, here are the deficiencies and positives that this person brings.

• 1:23:47Tim Ferriss?

  Anonymized.

• 1:23:48Kevin Rose?

  Anonymized.

• 1:23:49Tim Ferriss?

  Brutal.

• 1:23:49Kevin Rose?

  And they are very different than what you think you're, how you show up.

• 1:23:53Tim Ferriss?

  Totally.

• 1:23:53Kevin Rose?

  And so like, that's the idea.

• 1:23:55Tim Ferriss?

  I literally was watching, looking at mine from like, 12 years ago.

• 1:23:58Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Tim Ferriss?

  A couple of weeks ago, and I was just like,

• 1:24:00Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:24:02Tim Ferriss?

  So tough.

• 1:24:03Kevin Rose?

  I know.

• 1:24:04Tim Ferriss?

  So you get it back and you're like, who said this?

• 1:24:07Kevin Rose?

  I know.

• 1:24:08Tim Ferriss?

  Like, some of it's brutal.

• 1:24:09Kevin Rose?

  I think, I think I know what you said, by the way. Do you ever use the word child rearing?

• 1:24:14Tim Ferriss?

  Child rearing?

• 1:24:15Kevin Rose?

  Did you ever say that?

• 1:24:16Tim Ferriss?

  Child rearing? I mean,

• 1:24:19Kevin Rose?

  To throw me off? Would you ever say that?

• 1:24:21Tim Ferriss?

  To throw you off the sun trail?

• 1:24:23Kevin Rose?

  Because before I had kids, somebody in my anonymous 360 review said like, oh, he's going to have a hard time with child rearing.

• 1:24:29Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no, that wasn't me.

• 1:24:30Kevin Rose?

  I'm like, who the fuck would say child rearing?

• 1:24:32Tim Ferriss?

  No, that's not me.

• 1:24:32Kevin Rose?

  I don't have any friends that even have that in their vocabulary. And I was like, the only person I could do that would be Tim trying to throw me off with a fucking smart ass word.

• 1:24:40Tim Ferriss?

  No, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. That wasn't me. No, no. I think I'd be able to identify whatever responses I gave.

• 1:24:46Kevin Rose?

  That's the one thing that stuck with me after like 15 years. I'm like, who said that?

• 1:24:50Tim Ferriss?

  Man, you're lucky if you got off with that. I've got so much more. Good lord. You know what I've been doing, that has been really helpful? Because the blank page is something I struggle with, with writing, which is probably the reason why the AI is so demoralizing, in a sense, because the LLMs within like 30 seconds, which is like, boom, how you like me now? Trying to match that. But using, even though I don't, certainly don't know the future of this company, because it might get replaced by features that are innate to X, Y, or Z, but Whisperflow.

• 1:25:20Kevin Rose?

  Oh, God, I love it.

• 1:25:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So using Whisperflow as a data dump.

• 1:25:24Kevin Rose?

  I wish I was an investor.

• 1:25:25Tim Ferriss?

  You may, you may have recommended this to me. I can't recall, but

• 1:25:28Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:29Tim Ferriss?

  Basically doing a dump of a conversation as I'm walking with Whisperflow.

• 1:25:33Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:34Tim Ferriss?

  Into a note on my phone, then taking that, dropping into Claude, asking it to like, clean it up and turn it into something readable, has been so helpful. Not necessarily for publication, but for emails, especially uncomfortable emails. You're like, oh, God, like, I'm putting it off, I'm procrastinating, because I don't want to do it. Just doing like a 10 minute brain dump, it's shocking how quickly things come together. Like, incredibly helpful. And I'll just give a shout out to my friend, Lon Lee, co-founder of Exploding Kittens. He recommended this headset, because I was on a call with him. I'm like, man, that audio is awesome. What are you using?

• 1:26:10Kevin Rose?

  Can you put it on just for the viewers?

• 1:26:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I will.

• 1:26:12Kevin Rose?

  Because it's going to look as good as I hope it does.

• 1:26:14Tim Ferriss?

  It looks so good. Yeah, it's pretty good, right? So this is the Shokz, S-H-O-K-Z, open ear bone conduction headset. So he was talking, and I'm like, what the hell are you wearing? I was like, audio is really good. So it looks pretty dorky. This is like a

• 1:26:30Kevin Rose?

  No, it's great.

• 1:26:33Tim Ferriss?

  And the bone conduction is right here, effectively in my cheekbones. When you first use them, you're like, wait a second. I feel like this is playing out of speakers. Like, this is nonsense. This is complete BS. But then you totally plug your ears and you can still hear perfectly well, which is crazy.

• 1:26:49Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:49Tim Ferriss?

  And what I like about these, A, the audio quality is great, you know, connectivity varies, but the audio quality is fantastic. You can hear. So if I'm like, walking my dog, walking Molly, and I want to be able to hear traffic and so on, I can use this, because especially if I'm using Whisperflow to data dump into a text file of some type, I don't really need to be listening. It's not like I'm on a phone call or a Zoom call or something. So I find this very, very helpful so that I can actually pay attention to my surroundings. And that's all I got. It's basically this and AirPods. I mean, there, there are other headphones that I will use for professional recording and stuff. But thus far, I'll share

• 1:27:29Tim Ferriss?

  one more tech thing real quick. This little baggie here is the Sennheiser Pro Audio Condenser Microphone. It's very simple. I've just been very impressed with the audio. When I'm on the road, recording stuff for the podcast, like intros or sponsor reads or whatever, it's just a simple lav mic. It's so simple, but the audio quality, even in a hotel room that is really bouncy, lots of glass, lots of metal, where it should sound terrible, if I use a fancy, like, this is a Shure mic that we have right here.

• 1:28:02Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:02Tim Ferriss?

  If I were to use this exact mic, because I have it at home.

• 1:28:04Kevin Rose?

  Yep.

• 1:28:05Tim Ferriss?

  In some of these bouncy rooms, it would sound worse, I'm not kidding, than what I get for my purposes.

• 1:28:11Kevin Rose?

  Crazy.

• 1:28:11Tim Ferriss?

  With this. It's pretty wild. And I love Shure. I use their mics on a lot of podcasts. But in terms of minimizing bounce.

• 1:28:19Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:20Tim Ferriss?

  For whatever reason, this little baggie that I can stick in a pocket, right? It's like, this is my portable

• 1:28:26Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:27Tim Ferriss?

  Sort of recording studio.

• 1:28:29Kevin Rose?

  Have you recorded on the iPhone with it?

• 1:28:31Tim Ferriss?

  I have.

• 1:28:32Kevin Rose?

  It sounds good.

• 1:28:33Tim Ferriss?

  It sounds great.

• 1:28:34Kevin Rose?

  That's amazing.

• 1:28:34Tim Ferriss?

  And I don't have my phone with me. There is an app that you can use for really high fidelity recording. It's called like Ferriss or something like that.

• 1:28:44Kevin Rose?

  It's like lossless recording, right?

• 1:28:45Tim Ferriss?

  Lossless recording. It's like F E R R I T E, something like that. I'll put the link in the show notes for this, for people who are interested. The quality is absurd. And you can also use Descript or one of these programs to do AI cleanup. And it's crazy.

• 1:29:02Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, you didn't need, sadly, you didn't need Descript anymore. Like you can just use all the models do it. Gemini is actually quite good at multimodal audio, video, all that stuff.

• 1:29:11Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, cool. Yeah, Gemini, honestly, I've been using Gemini more and more just because it's such plug and play with

• 1:29:18Kevin Rose?

  It's fast, too.

• 1:29:19Tim Ferriss?

  With G Suite also.

• 1:29:20Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I mean, three, five, flash, like, is a great model, although the new Sony just came out. That's from Anthropic that just came out and that's, I haven't played with it yet because it was literally launched today and it's supposed to be fantastic.

• 1:29:32Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you, what do you think the landscape looks like in a few years? You've got Anthropic and OpenAI racing to IPO. See where that goes. You've got Mythos slash Fable taking off.

• 1:29:41Kevin Rose?

  Mythos is out tomorrow.

• 1:29:42Tim Ferriss?

  Right?

• 1:29:43Kevin Rose?

  Back out tomorrow.

• 1:29:44Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Okay. Was a national security threat yesterday, but it isn't today.

• 1:29:47Kevin Rose?

  Exactly.

• 1:29:48Tim Ferriss?

  What do you think? I think the

• 1:29:49Kevin Rose?

  It's the big three. It's three players.

• 1:29:51Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:29:51Kevin Rose?

  It's Google, Anthropic and OpenAI.

• 1:29:53Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:54Kevin Rose?

  And X is trying and I wouldn't, I would never ever count out Elon, like, obviously, like, he has the funds to make it happen.

• 1:30:03Tim Ferriss?

  Well, also Anthropic and Google are buying excess capacity from Colossus, right?

• 1:30:07Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, but that means that their product isn't working.

• 1:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:11Kevin Rose?

  Because they bought that capacity for themselves.

• 1:30:12Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:30:13Kevin Rose?

  So that means that no one's using Grok, you know? I mean, I, I actually like Grok. They, they have done.

• 1:30:19Tim Ferriss?

  I use Grok more than people might realize.

• 1:30:21Kevin Rose?

  Well, here's what's interesting about it.

• 1:30:22Tim Ferriss?

  For current events and synthesizers.

• 1:30:23Kevin Rose?

  Yes. So they, they has direct access to the X API and it has actually X tools built into Grok. So if you want to like get, like you said, current events, news, things like that. And they've also said that it is one of the most grounded models and doesn't hallucinate. So that it's really good at. And so on DIG, when we relaunched it and we use a lot of AI to kind of like come up with the different stories and all that. We use it a ton because we want that grounded information that is true. And so it's really important to have that. And I, I don't know. I mean, I think I wouldn't count them out. I should probably include them in that list.

• 1:30:57Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So big three.

• 1:30:59Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:00Tim Ferriss?

  What do you think things look like in two years? You're very good at this. I'm not saying, obviously, this is just fucking bullshitting and speculating, but what's your guess?

• 1:31:09Kevin Rose?

  Hmm. I mean,

• 1:31:10Tim Ferriss?

  I'm pretty heavy into Alphabet, thanks to you, which

• 1:31:13Kevin Rose?

  It had to be in Alphabet?

• 1:31:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:15Kevin Rose?

  Yeah. I mean,

• 1:31:15Tim Ferriss?

  Like, but, and then they had a 40% pop on a $4 trillion company. What is going on? I mean,

• 1:31:23Kevin Rose?

  I haven't even watched. Is it up?

• 1:31:25Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I mean, this is, this is a while back.

• 1:31:27Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Tim Ferriss?

  A while back in AI time, which is like dog years. So by that, I mean, like five months ago.

• 1:31:32Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I, I, listen, exactly. Five months is like 10 years now. So here is why I like Google. They own the full stack.

• 1:31:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41Kevin Rose?

  They have their own chips.

• 1:31:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:31:42Kevin Rose?

  And so one of the things that I did a deep dive on was the chips that they are building, they really confuse the industry. It's my understanding that they made them insanely high bandwidth and kind of memory throughput when everyone was like, hey, why are you opening up these channels and making them so high bandwidth for this kind of like data flow? And I talked to a buddy and he was like, yeah, everyone was confused at first when they saw the architecture for their, their latest AI chips. And then they realized that we live in a world right now where a model drops, like Fable goes live tomorrow on Wednesday, right? And the next OpenAI model goes live in two weeks or whatever, because they have that rumored one.

• 1:32:25Kevin Rose?

  It's like old software deployment where it was like model trained, released, out, model trained, released out. That's the cadence we're on right now. What Google is betting, and I know, I know they're all thinking this, but what Google is betting with this high throughput, kind of wide memory architecture is the future is continuous learning. And so everyone is saying like, we're 12 to 18 months out, maybe a little bit longer from self-improving models.

• 1:32:52Tim Ferriss?

  I see, yeah.

• 1:32:53Kevin Rose?

  So 24/7, it's not, no longer about like, oh, Mythos came out today. Woo, crazy. It's not about those new models dropping. It's about

• 1:33:02Tim Ferriss?

  Just like a child learning day by day.

• 1:33:04Kevin Rose?

  It will be better than today forever. And when that happens and they own the full stack, so Google's got the chips. Granted, they're going to be constrained by TSMC, which is the only player that's producing. I mean, there's a few others, Samsung and Micron and a few others, but like TSMC is like the leader. And they're producing, I believe they're producing Google's chips as well, but they've got the chips architecture. They've got the models, they've got the engineers, they're freaking, I mean, they lost a great one like a week ago, but it's crazy what they're paying these engineers. Did you see some of this? It's like a billion dollars, like situation. Like it's insane what they're paying some of these people to like stick around.

• 1:33:40Tim Ferriss?

  That's what, you know, Meta was doing to Poach also.

• 1:33:43Kevin Rose?

  Meta, I just don't think they're going to make it, man.

• 1:33:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Kevin Rose?

  Listen, they have great businesses. Instagram is phenomenal. They've got these fantastic assets, but I just don't think they have the talent to pull off what these other bigs are pulling off, you know?

• 1:34:03Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you think the, what do the big three look like in two years, do you think? Because Google has a lot of advantages, like you mentioned.

• 1:34:11Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:12Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, also like a vast data center expertise.

• 1:34:16Kevin Rose?

  They have the data centers. They have Android.

• 1:34:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Kevin Rose?

  Which is like 60 some percent of the population or something like that. So they have the install base. I have a hard time believing that if you believe that AI inference and all the costs associated with AI eventually kind of settles. And it's affordable. And yes, it'll probably be like a Netflix type plan where we're all like, oh yeah, that's our extra $30 a month to get all the AI shit, whatever. If it's coming on your device and also Google's powering a lot of Apple shit, although Apple has some unique tech. It's interesting. Apple is kind of coming up. I wouldn't write off Apple either. Apple's another one, but they're probably another couple of years out. I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, for me,

• 1:35:03Kevin Rose?

  I'm old enough now to not want to be like, hey, this is the 10xer.

• 1:35:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Kevin Rose?

  Actually, this is interesting. I called on your podcast and I don't know if you know this, but like four years ago, I was like, dude, Nvidia is going to crush it, blah, blah, blah. There's been some dumb predictions. We've definitely made some bad ones too. So I'm not going to say it's been all good, but we've called out some stuff. In the world of AI, I don't think it's winner take all. Unless somebody hits some kind of crazy escape velocity that is like truly it's like aware.

• 1:35:31Tim Ferriss?

  What do you think? Just, I'm curious because you're, you're so much better at this kind of stuff than I am. I'm like good at my dumb little corners here and there, but you've worked at Google and you worked on their ill-fitted social product at one point, right? What was it called?

• 1:35:46Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, Google Plus.

• 1:35:47Tim Ferriss?

  Google Plus, right?

• 1:35:48Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, it was horrible. I left right away.

• 1:35:50Tim Ferriss?

  Right. And very wisely segue to Google Ventures. I guess my point is like when people think consumer, not enterprise.

• 1:35:58Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Tim Ferriss?

  When they think AI right now, they think ChatGPT, right?

• 1:36:01Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:02Tim Ferriss?

  ChatGPT has raised a ton of fucking money.

• 1:36:04Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:04Tim Ferriss?

  They've got to figure out ads, almost certainly.

• 1:36:06Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Tim Ferriss?

  That's not easy. That is very, very, very hard to do. It's some, like, I'm pretty familiar with the ads business at Google. Very hard to do at a high level. However, when average Joe or Jane on the street thinks AI, they think ChatGPT. And when I have tried to set up the Gmail API for Claude, the process on the Google side is such dog shit, like the UX is terrible. Like it is so bad.

• 1:36:34Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:35Tim Ferriss?

  And I'd like to think myself reasonably decent with tech stuff, not as technical as you are, but pretty good, I would like to think. Nonetheless, I need someone like on my staff to walk me through step by step to do it because it's so counterintuitive and there are errors all over the place. And then you've got, you know, Anthropic, which is, if we are to believe the headlines on ARR, just like crushing, right? On the enterprise side, like the fastest scaling business of all time.

• 1:37:01Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:02Tim Ferriss?

  But on a lot of different measures. However, they've gotten a number of pretty strong bitch slaps from the administration.

• 1:37:10Tim Ferriss?

  At the same time, it seems unlikely that any of these frontier labs are going to be left unconstrained by the government.

• 1:37:19Kevin Rose?

  Right.

• 1:37:19Tim Ferriss?

  So that's like a huge question.

• 1:37:21Kevin Rose?

  Ah, I think China will push that.

• 1:37:22Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, tell me.

• 1:37:23Kevin Rose?

  Well, so China's been launching new models and they just did one like a week ago that is on par with Fable and they.

• 1:37:31Tim Ferriss?

  Was that Alibaba or someone else?

• 1:37:32Kevin Rose?

  No, it's, it's a, but these are open source models. So it's actually really interesting because China is like, okay, listen, we're going to open sources and people will use our tech. They're almost doing it the American way.

• 1:37:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:48Kevin Rose?

  Like they're not closed sourcing anything. They're like, okay, here's the free model. Come use ours because we're going to charge you. You can run it yourself if you want locally.

• 1:37:56Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:37:57Kevin Rose?

  And that is going to be increasingly, I think that will be increasingly common. Like AMD came out, I don't know if you saw what she, the CEO, she's brilliant. She came out with this new box that is this like little $4,000 box or somewhere around there. And it can run like these massive multi-billion parameter models locally. And so those charges that you were getting.

• 1:38:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Kevin Rose?

  For, you know, like a thousand dollars a month or $5,000 a month, whatever in AI expenses is now just that one box. It just runs the model locally. Now granted, it's probably eight months behind in terms of like the model it can run versus.

• 1:38:34Tim Ferriss?

  For a lot of people, who cares?

• 1:38:35Kevin Rose?

  For a lot of people who cares, you know? And so.

• 1:38:40Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you, from a business perspective?

• 1:38:43Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Tim Ferriss?

  And I know that's tightly related to all sorts of technical considerations, but where do you think Google, I still hate saying alphabet. Let's just say Google.

• 1:38:54Kevin Rose?

  The word on the street is that they have models that are more advanced than Fable. They have not launched them because one, the government's going to step in and stop them.

• 1:39:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:03Kevin Rose?

  And two, they are very expensive to run.

• 1:39:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:39:06Kevin Rose?

  And it would cost them a lot of money. They would lose money doing so. And so I think in a year, we're really like 12 months, we'll be, we'll, we'll really know where Google's at. Dude, I'm telling you.

• 1:39:19Tim Ferriss?

  They're holding on.

• 1:39:19Kevin Rose?

  Shit back and it's fucking Google. Like you don't understand. My time there, I walked, it's like Sergey took me, and I'm not saying this is a flex. I'm just like Sergey took me and Bill Maris, um, who ran Google Ventures.

• 1:39:34Tim Ferriss?

  Smart dude.

• 1:39:35Kevin Rose?

  Through, Bill's amazing. Google X. And this was years ago.

• 1:39:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, cool.

• 1:39:39Kevin Rose?

  Got to tour and he was like.

• 1:39:41Tim Ferriss?

  That's the moonshot factory.

• 1:39:42Kevin Rose?

  It's like, dude, you already worked there and like they make you sign shit when you walk in like, don't fucking say anything.

• 1:39:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Google X is like the Willy Wonka.

• 1:39:49Kevin Rose?

  So I'm like seeing the Waymos before they even talked about them like freaking 10 plus years ago, you know, like before it was even a thing. And so I saw all the crazy balloon projects and a couple of those, the shutter that I can even talk about, but I'm telling you, they're sitting on tech that's like five years out, but like, don't underestimate how many freaking PhDs they have working on this shit.

• 1:40:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:12Kevin Rose?

  Like you just can't imagine what's under the hood there.

• 1:40:16Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:40:16Kevin Rose?

  Like it's just, so for me, I'm not a fan of like, at this point, when I think about investing into the future, and this is not investment advice, when the Anthropics and the Open AIs and the Googles, like you name the top five, it's kind of almost like what they said back in the day when they had the acronym they used for like Netflix, Google, what was the?

• 1:40:37Tim Ferriss?

  Changes all the time.

• 1:40:39Kevin Rose?

  But you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:40:39Tim Ferriss?

  Fang.

• 1:40:40Kevin Rose?

  Fang. Yeah. Like Fang was a thing and then there's another one and there's another one. You're going to want to own like those five and you'll sit back and you'll be like, damn, if I had only just owned Google, I'd be up like 70%. But you're like, oh, you know what? In combination, I'm up like 30% and the market's doing 10. You'll be stoked, right?

• 1:40:55Tim Ferriss?

  Now you sent me a graph. We can delete this.

• 1:40:57Kevin Rose?

  Oh, the Nasdaq 100?

• 1:40:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 1:40:59Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:59Tim Ferriss?

  So I mean, for you looking forward, right? Cause you bust my balls about some of the swings that I take, which is, is good. You should, you should, no, no, you should bust my balls.

• 1:41:08Kevin Rose?

  I bust it because I'm like, Tim, what are you optimizing for, dude? Another zero? You don't need another zero on the bank account.

• 1:41:14Tim Ferriss?

  I get it. I get it. I get it. But I'm asking you.

• 1:41:17Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Tim Ferriss?

  Right? I mean, look, we're all looking for the feeling of being alive. Part of the way I feel alive is by taking swings, right?

• 1:41:23Kevin Rose?

  Fair.

• 1:41:24Tim Ferriss?

  My question for you is, you're not just going to do S and P 500. I find that hard to believe.

• 1:41:28Kevin Rose?

  I dabble.

• 1:41:30Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So if you were.

• 1:41:32Kevin Rose?

  I'm like you.

• 1:41:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:33Kevin Rose?

  I bought Waymo stock and you got pissed at me because I didn't offer you any.

• 1:41:36Tim Ferriss?

  He's such a prick. Keeps all the, the shiny stuff for himself. So it's a greedy little pig.

• 1:41:42Kevin Rose?

  I didn't know you wanted it.

• 1:41:43Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, you a hundred percent know that I want it because I sent, this was actually turned out pretty well. It's part of the reason why I pulled the trigger on Google was such a simple approach. I took five names, was it? It was like Google, Anthropic, OpenAI, Waymo, handful of other companies. And there's Versell, Crusoe, a couple of others.

• 1:42:06Kevin Rose?

  Damn it.

• 1:42:07Tim Ferriss?

  And, and I sent this list out and I sent it to like, I don't know, five smart people I know who are very, very good investors, have good track records, cross asset classes. And a few of them sent that to like their technical analysts who specialize in different fields. And I was like, yeah, but, but I was like, ah, maybe, maybe not. And I was like, you have 10 chips. Where do you put those 10 chips as a bet? That's it.

• 1:42:30Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Tim Ferriss?

  No further guidance, no caveats, no explanation. And look, I'm not saying this is the most sophisticated investment thesis in the world, but you know that I want to Waymo because it was on that list and it was one of the winners that came back in terms of, if we are to believe the consensus of this small cohort.

• 1:42:47Kevin Rose?

  And to be fair, I offered you some of my own purchase and you.

• 1:42:50Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I may, I may, I may still take you up on it.

• 1:42:54Kevin Rose?

  He's just waiting on six months of valuation.

• 1:42:57Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, remember, brother?

• 1:42:59Kevin Rose?

  Get that across.

• 1:43:00Tim Ferriss?

  Saw the news. I would love to revisit our conversation from earlier.

• 1:43:03Kevin Rose?

  But I think for the average person listening, like the good news is that these companies are going out soon.

• 1:43:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:09Kevin Rose?

  Like meaning they're going to be publicly traded companies. They may seem very expensive and very pricey and you'd be right to say that. And so did Amazon when it went out in 2000, you know?

• 1:43:19Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, what was the market cap on Amazon IPO though?

• 1:43:22Kevin Rose?

  It was like.

• 1:43:22Tim Ferriss?

  It's got to be tiny.

• 1:43:24Kevin Rose?

  No, but no, no, no. It's not about market cap. It's about price to earnings, right?

• 1:43:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 1:43:28Kevin Rose?

  So I, I looked at.

• 1:43:30Tim Ferriss?

  Well, now price to earnings will depend a lot. I mean, it's going to be very different for OpenAI and Anthropic, right?

• 1:43:35Kevin Rose?

  Well, it's crazy is like SpaceX is like 30% bump, bump price to earnings on the peak of Amazon. So like SpaceX is like, did you invest in SpaceX or no?

• 1:43:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I started investing in SpaceX like 10, 12 years ago.

• 1:43:48Kevin Rose?

  So you're stoked.

• 1:43:48Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, look, yeah, I'm fine. But you know, I would say here also, it's like, if you're like, oh, I missed it because only the fancy people get to invest beforehand. It's like, no, I mean SpaceX right now, I'm looking at the chart, launched at 60, 160, excuse me, like had this huge bump, obviously, but then dropped down and like you could have bought it for 156, 154, 153. And now it's climbing back up. I mean, there's a lot going on here. And honestly, I still find public equity investing terrifying because there are so many sharks and there's short sellers and like derivatives and all this craziness going on. And like, what happens when it's listed and put into these indexes and blah, blah, blah. Like all those dynamics are way beyond my.

• 1:44:29Kevin Rose?

  That's why I don't, I don't do the day trading thing.

• 1:44:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I don't do, I don't do day trading.

• 1:44:33Kevin Rose?

  No, I'm just saying like, for example, SpaceX, I don't have a position in SpaceX, but if I did, it would be to hold for the next 10 years.

• 1:44:40Tim Ferriss?

  Here's a good takeaway. You're asking like, what's the takeaway from like my 20 year analysis of the angel investing? It's still incomplete. Like there's a lot left to do.

• 1:44:48Kevin Rose?

  Shopify.

• 1:44:49Tim Ferriss?

  Oh God. Well, that's a good example, right? It's like, this is going to sound so dumb and yet duh to so many people who are more, um, just better investors than I am. But I mean, I've done pretty well. I think the decisions I made at the time to sell certain things were very logical, given the information and my financial status at the time. Totally reasonable. So I don't want to judge a good poker play based on like where I am 20 years hence. That's not reasonable. But the takeaway is like, you gotta let your winners run as long as possible.

• 1:45:24Kevin Rose?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:45:25Tim Ferriss?

  And.

• 1:45:25Kevin Rose?

  I've lost more money not by selling stocks early than I've ever probably made buying the original stock.

• 1:45:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, and the other thing I would say also for people listening who are like, oh my God, if these one percenters are jerking each other off any longer, I'm going to vomit. If you had just, and some very famous firm did this, maybe it was Sequoia or Benchmark, I can't recall, but they looked at their gains from initial investment all the way through follow on rounds to IPO and then six months post. So after lockup for, let's just keep it simple for all intents and purposes. And then they looked at what you would have gained if you bought it IPO and just held for like 10 years. And you would have made as much or more.

• 1:46:08Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:09Tim Ferriss?

  If you would just bought as a retail investor.

• 1:46:11Kevin Rose?

  That is the silver lining here, which is I for some reason get fed all a lot of these Instagram videos and two of them that.

• 1:46:17Tim Ferriss?

  You're on Instagram so much. You send me so many fucking Instagram.

• 1:46:22Kevin Rose?

  You do. So the, the interesting thing about it is so many times as individuals, and I've fallen into this trap as well, which is you find something that you love and you buy said object when you should actually buy the company.

• 1:46:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:37Kevin Rose?

  So let's just pretend you're going to spend $500 on iPhone every year since it came out, right?

• 1:46:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Kevin Rose?

  And there was this great woman that came in and she was like, okay, had you just for the first four years of the iPhone coming out, rather than buy an iPhone.

• 1:46:49Tim Ferriss?

  Put it in Apple.

• 1:46:49Kevin Rose?

  Put it now.

• 1:46:50Tim Ferriss?

  That's so cool.

• 1:46:51Kevin Rose?

  And it was like hundreds of thousands of dollars.

• 1:46:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:53Kevin Rose?

  And my buddy is had the like, I love you Prager, David Prager, the second the Tesla came out, not the, the first one, but the, the one that was consumer friendly, you know? He went, he's like, he had made a little money and he's like, you know what? I'm going to do it. I'm splurge. I'm a decade out. Spent a hundred grand on this thing. And he got the freaking top line Tesla. We did the math for him.

• 1:47:16Tim Ferriss?

  Oh God.

• 1:47:16Kevin Rose?

  Because we're bastards. And it was like $15 million or something like that. Had he just invested in Tesla, the second he loved the product. The moral of the story is if you love something, and this is going to happen over and over again for decades to come. If you're like, hey, Claude is my shit. I use it every single day. I think it's great because of X, Y, and Z. And they go public, like set it and forget it. Come in, whatever you can afford. I don't care if it's a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars or a hundred thousand dollars. It's meaningful at the end of the day.

• 1:47:47Tim Ferriss?

  No, it's, it's great advice. I mean, look, that's part of the reason, and I have gotten so much shit from this by some VCs, I won't mention their names, who are just like, what? Because they've got their like 30 slide, our proprietary investment thesis shit that they show pens and funds and stuff, right? And I'm like, I just try to invest in stuff that I will use every day.

• 1:48:08Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:08Tim Ferriss?

  Right? And it's not true for everything, like Commonwealth fusion systems. All right. I'm not using them every day, but SpaceX, you know, I mean, outside of Starlink, but it's like, there are exceptions, but it's like with something like this, right? Where it's like, I am eating close to half of my protein calories every day of this stuff. And I'm like, I should just invest in the company, right? It's just like, that is what makes sense. You know, the first stock I ever bought, this is when I was like.

• 1:48:34Kevin Rose?

  Dill Donics. That'd be something you use every day.

• 1:48:37Tim Ferriss?

  Tele donics. Yeah, can't go wrong.

• 1:48:41Kevin Rose?

  For people that don't know what deal donics is.

• 1:48:42Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that'll be another random show. Show notes. It was Pixar.

• 1:48:47Kevin Rose?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:48:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, my dad bought me some book on stock investing. Honestly, I couldn't make any sense of it because it was getting into like price to earning and this and that earning per share. And I was like, ah, I don't really understand this, but.

• 1:48:58Kevin Rose?

  That's so cool. Your dad bought you that.

• 1:49:00Tim Ferriss?

  It was cool. It was.

• 1:49:01Kevin Rose?

  Do you like? That's cool.

• 1:49:03Tim Ferriss?

  It's cool. It's cool. It was his way of like showing love, you know? Yeah. We can't all do it the way necessarily people want to receive it. But in any case, the point of that was I loved comics. I tracked comics and animation and I saw Toy Story number one. I even saw shorts and I was like, that is the future.

• 1:49:23Kevin Rose?

  That's amazing.

• 1:49:24Tim Ferriss?

  I know that's the future.

• 1:49:25Kevin Rose?

  Exactly.

• 1:49:25Tim Ferriss?

  And when I was whatever, 15 or something, first stock Pixar, I have, I have the original like shareholder poster they mailed out. Like Lester and Jobs and stuff.

• 1:49:36Kevin Rose?

  Oh dude, that's amazing.

• 1:49:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And for me, it's like, look at your credit card statement. Do you know what I mean? I mean, this is not investment advice. I'm just saying this is the way I personally approach it. So informational purposes only, but it's like, yeah, if you're spending hundreds of dollars on like

• 1:49:54Tim Ferriss?

  Amazon and Amazon Prime, it's like, well, maybe, who knows?

• 1:49:58Kevin Rose?

  Totally.

• 1:49:58Tim Ferriss?

  You know, are you going to be spending more or less on that in five years? Like just forget about the market. Forget about analysts like you personally. Will you be spending more or less on this in three or five years' time?

• 1:50:10Kevin Rose?

  That's exactly right.

• 1:50:10Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. And we'll pop to something in the intro on this is not investment advice, but it's like it does this stuff. You don't need to be a quant hedge fund manager.

• 1:50:19Kevin Rose?

  And to be fair, like when you look at Buffett's portfolio and the things that he's bought over the years, like it's the consumer staples and the things that were just like, he's like, yes, more people will want and drink Coca-Cola in the future. It's a fantastic brand. The margins are impeccable. Like it's a well-run business. I know the CEO.

• 1:50:38Tim Ferriss?

  Not prone to disruption.

• 1:50:40Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, exactly. And downturns, guess what? People still drink Coke.

• 1:50:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:43Kevin Rose?

  You know, it's like.

• 1:50:44Tim Ferriss?

  He's also a clever bastard though. He's been very good with his.

• 1:50:48Kevin Rose?

  He missed.

• 1:50:48Tim Ferriss?

  All shocks grandpa branding. He's very good at that. But that dude is a stone cold killer in terms of.

• 1:50:54Kevin Rose?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:54Tim Ferriss?

  Geico is cash machine and.

• 1:50:56Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:50:57Tim Ferriss?

  Being like the lender of first resort when shit's going sideways. People call Uncle Buffett and he's like, sure, here's my offer. Take or leave. But yes, very bright guy. All right. What have we missed?

• 1:51:09Kevin Rose?

  Uh, the only thing I would say is that.

• 1:51:12Tim Ferriss?

  Tell the donics.

• 1:51:13Kevin Rose?

  Yes, that if you want to learn about the latest tech and AI news, I relaunched dig.

• 1:51:18Tim Ferriss?

  You're showing me some numbers. That's crazy, man.

• 1:51:21Kevin Rose?

  It's crazy. We've got like, we went from 20,000 people a week using it. Now we've close to 500,000. So it's been growing quite a bit and it's pulling across the entire zeitgeist of the web. We don't want to start another social network. So we pull from X, we pull from a few other feeds where we'll be putting in like videos from YouTube and Tik Tok and others. And it's just been a fun little hobby. It's a fun hobby. And it's like doing millions of pages a month. And I'm proud of that. It's like, it's awesome to see it working again. So it's good.

• 1:51:48Tim Ferriss?

  D I G G dot com.

• 1:51:49Kevin Rose?

  D I G G dot com, at Kevin Rose on Instagram. And yeah.

• 1:51:54Tim Ferriss?

  Sweet. What should I say? I guess Tim dot blog. You can find thousand plus blog posts. If you want to read about my cadaver on the table, my book sales as a result of AI. That is a crazy blog post. I don't even know if you're aware of this. Oh yeah. My all format book sales.

• 1:52:09Kevin Rose?

  Oh, I saw that.

• 1:52:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Isn't it crazy?

• 1:52:11Kevin Rose?

  Down.

• 1:52:12Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you look at the graph and it's like stable annuity, stable annuity, stable annuity, very predictable. And then in 2013, because what happened in November, 2022, chat GPT 3.5. And you see a slip by negative 5%, then you see a slip by like, I'm making up these numbers, but they're close, negative 28%. Then it's like negative 49%.

• 1:52:36Kevin Rose?

  But it turns out you're going to be okay.

• 1:52:37Tim Ferriss?

  I'll be fine. The implications are pretty interesting. And, and now if we continue the pace in 2026, down like 67%. These are.

• 1:52:45Kevin Rose?

  Shit.

• 1:52:46Tim Ferriss?

  These are sort of compounding in the wrong direction, right? It's not quite the right terminology to use, but you get it. So stuff to think about. People can check that out. If you search AI, nonfiction, Tim Ferriss. That's a blog post. It's actually a pretty interesting read, but on, on the less dystopian view, ultimately the message isn't dystopian. Tim dot blog, at Tim Ferriss on Instagram, at T Ferriss, T F E R R I S S on Twitter. But like honestly, I'm not so active on the socials because I've deleted those from my phone for a couple of years. You're listening to the podcast. I don't have to solve the podcast. Oh, five bullet Friday. My diary.

• 1:53:20Kevin Rose?

  Can you add one?

• 1:53:22Tim Ferriss?

  Can I add one? What?

• 1:53:22Kevin Rose?

  Oh, it's like six bullets.

• 1:53:25Tim Ferriss?

  Well, every once in a while, if I'm lazy, there are, I'd say like.

• 1:53:30Tim Ferriss?

  No, if I'm lazy and I'm like, ah, I don't want to do it because I still, I still do this thing myself. Hold on one sec. We're almost done. Relax. You and your prostate.

• 1:53:37Kevin Rose?

  No, no, it's not the prostate. It's the fact that we had, you gave me tequila.

• 1:53:40Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I gave you tequila. You were over served. Hold on a second. Just give me two fucking seconds, you old man. You old bastard. Now I'm going to make this really long.

• 1:53:49Kevin Rose?

  No, come on.

• 1:53:51Tim Ferriss?

  So yeah, five bullet Friday. Every once in a while you did this yourself. Turns into six bullet Saturday if I'm just not feeling it. But yeah, 2 million subscribers. It's free. Easy to unsubscribe. Tim dot blog slash Friday. And that's, that's all I got.

• 1:54:03Kevin Rose?

  All right.

• 1:54:04Tim Ferriss?

  You want to go P O, man?

• 1:54:05Kevin Rose?

  Yeah, I will.

• 1:54:06Tim Ferriss?

  Good to see you.

• 1:54:07Kevin Rose?

  Good to see you. Love you, brother. Love you too.

• 1:54:09Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called five bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums, perhaps gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 1:54:52Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim dot blog slash Friday, type that into your browser, tim dot blog slash Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. Lately, navigating the financial landscape can feel like a full-time job and it's not a very fun full-time job. It's stressful, but it does not have to be that way. You can simplify. Wealthfront helps you tune out the noise and earn more on every dollar with sophisticated, easy to use products like their cash account.

• 1:55:35Tim Ferriss?

  You get fee-free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts. And when you're ready to invest, transferring to their expert-built investing accounts is simple. For a limited time, my listeners can earn up to 4.30% variable APY on cash. What that means is on top of the 3.3 base APY from program banks, new cash account clients get an exclusive three-month 0.75% APY boost on up to $150,000. Then they get another 0.25% APY increase by direct depositing $1,000 a month and maintaining a funded investing account. Terms and conditions apply. More than a million people trust Wealthfront. Check them out. Go to wealthfront.com slash Tim to claim your boost.

• 1:56:16Tim Ferriss?

  That's wealthfront.com slash Tim. This is a paid endorsement of Wealthfront. Client experiences vary. Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank. Base APY as of January 30th, 2026 and subject to change. Details in the episode description.

• 1:56:32Tim Ferriss?

  Longtime listeners know how important privacy is to me. In fact, my friends would call me paranoid or they used to call me paranoid. And now they think I was just depression in a sense. These days you may have noticed it is a lot harder to protect privacy. Anyone can find your information with a quick search. It's shockingly easy. And I've had friends and paid people to red team me to try to find my info. And what you'll notice is that shadowy data brokers quietly collect and trade your home address, phone, family members and more. It's a mess. You have to have a plan for defense and you can fight back with incogni. That's I N C O G N I.

• 1:57:13Tim Ferriss?

  Incogni automatically removes your information across 420 plus data brokers with 1,000 plus additional sites covered in their unlimited plan. And they keep it scrubbed automatically. Deloitte has independently verified the headline numbers. In other words, 245 million plus removal requests and the company adheres to strict security standards with an A plus rating from the Better Business Bureau. And with their unlimited plan, if you find your info on a site they don't monitor, send them the link and their privacy team will handle it. Go to incogni.com slash Tim, I N C O G N I dot com slash Tim and use code Tim at checkout to get 60% off of an annual plan. One more time, incogni.com slash Tim.