#841: Arthur Brooks — Finding The Meaning of Your Life, The Poet's Protocol, The Holy Half-Hour, and Why Your Suffering is Sacred

Arthur C. Brooks is a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Harvard Business School, where he teaches courses on leadership and happiness. His next book, The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness https://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Your-Life-Finding-Emptiness-ebook/dp/B0FHJT4LRP/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, will be released on March 31, 2026. This episode is brought to you by: Humann https://humann.com/tim’s SuperBeets Sport for endurance and recovery: https://humann.com/timMonarch https://www.monarchmoney.com/timtrack, budget, plan, and do more with your money: https://www.monarch.com/timAG1 https://drinkag1.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://drinkag1.com/timCoyote the card game​ http://coyotegame.com/, which I co-created with Exploding Kittens: https://coyotegame.com https://coyotegame.com/ Timestamps: [00:00:00] Start.[00:02:33] The vascular Arthur Brooks returns.[00:03:07] Brahmamuhurta and why Arthur studies happiness.[00:06:20] Arthur’s morning workout protocol.[00:09:58] Why Arthur does Zone 2 cardio without headphones.[00:10:38] Quantifying progress as the secret to happiness.[00:20:50] Post-workout holy half-hour.[00:22:25] Creatine, caffeine strategy, and 60-70 grams of protein for breakfast.[00:29:50] Four hours of distraction-free deep work and Hemingway’s protocol.[00:32:21] Alcohol kills sleep to borrow happiness from tomorrow.[00:34:36] My ketosis, intermittent fasting, and morning protocol.[00:39:34] Experimentation is king.[00:46:29] David Baszucki, metabolic psychiatry, and ketosis: the poet’s protocol.[00:48:20] Four affect profiles: mad scientists, cheerleaders, judges, and poets.[00:54:13] Why Arthur was moved to write The Meaning of Your Life.[00:55:52] Psychogenic epidemic: technology isn’t the problem, it’s what we’re not getting.[00:59:33] Macronutrients of meaning: coherence, purpose, significance.[01:03:38] Search vs. presence and the trap for seekers.[01:07:53] Marine rule: get to 80 percent and choose.[01:12:07] Significance at micro, not macro level; cult of activism as substitute religion.[01:17:22] Transcendence: from me self to I self; Harvard’s Astronomy 101.[01:19:35] Two dimensions of transcendence: upward (worship) and outward (service).[01:21:48] Maslow revised: training awareness so the mundane becomes miraculous.[01:28:45] Flow state as self-forgetting; beauty as transcendence.[01:32:12] Living in the simulation: complicated vs. complex problems.[01:37:55] Left hemisphere vs. right hemisphere.[01:42:18] Your suffering is sacred: pain times resistance.[01:46:30] Pilgrimage as metaphor.[01:55:42] AI as left-brain adjunct.[01:57:18] Arthur’s evening protocol: Psalms and Neruda.[02:00:13] The oxytocin protocol for marriage, break glass plan.[02:04:31] Happiness is love and other parting thoughts.* For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to interview and deconstruct world-class performers, people who are exceptionally good in one or more dimensions, to figure out how they do it. How can you take frameworks, influences, books, habits, and copy and paste from their lives into your own? My guest today is a very impressive, full-stack human. He walks the talk. He's not just a commentator, he is a player on the field. And I have observed how he acts and creates meaning in his own life in multiple dimensions with great admiration. Arthur Brooks. Arthur Brooks is a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Harvard Business School,

• 0:44Tim Ferriss?

  where he teaches courses on leadership and happiness. He is also the host of the weekly podcast, Office Hours, with Arthur Brooks, and a columnist at The Atlantic, where he writes the popular weekly "How to Build a Life" column. Who wouldn't like a column titled "How to Build a Life"? His next book, The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness, will be released on March 31, 2026. And in this conversation, Arthur and I traverse a lot of terrain. I dig into his routines, morning routines, evening routines, workout routines, blood flow restriction, bands and technology for greater gains and fewer injuries as you age. I really get into a lot of the tactical.

• 1:27Tim Ferriss?

  And we also discuss how you could take something that seems esoteric, creating meaning, and turn it into frameworks that you can apply to counteract the wave and trend of nihilism in the face of overwhelming noise and doom scrolling, and so on. This is, of course, a topic, a question, a dilemma that has faced humans, that has been discussed for millennia, but it has never been more important, in my opinion. And we cover a lot that you can take and use in this conversation. So let's get to it. Arthur Brooks, you can find him at arthurbrooks.com. We will link to all of the socials. He's easy to find. Without further ado, please enjoy.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 2:33Tim Ferriss?

  Arthur Brooks, we meet again.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Nice to see you, Tim.

• 2:35Tim Ferriss?

  Nice to see you. You know, glad to see your, the vascularity in your arms is still visible even through the long sleeve shirt.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45Tim Ferriss?

  Because every woman wants a vascular man.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  You know.

• 2:48Tim Ferriss?

  I only take my cues from the internet.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Exactly. My wife, every day she says, I love you, you're so vascular.

• 2:54Tim Ferriss?

  Could really take this a lot of directions, but I'm gonna take a hard left from vascularity and I'm gonna try to pronounce Brahma Mahurta?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Brahma Mahurta.

• 3:06Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, Brahma Mahurta. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I want to offer some candy, much like maybe an E.T., putting the Reese's pieces on the floor to lure E.T. out. I want to bring my listeners and diehards into the conversation with a morning routine. And we'll, we'll talk about evening routines at the end as bookmarks and then we're gonna dive into all sorts of stuff. But what is Brahma Mahurta? And could you describe your personal morning?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I do have a very strong and very disciplined morning routine. And I studied love and happiness. So it's not as if I'm going deep into the physiology of actually how I can have the best amount of muscle mass and minimum amount of body fat. I want to have more love and happiness in my life and it's not easy. So I'm a specialist in human happiness because it's hard for me. You know, that's the first thing. I know everybody who does research on happiness in the psychology behavioral science world, they're doing it for a reason. It's sort of me search more than research. But one of the things that I've found is that discipline and an understanding of your own human physiology, the biology and neuroscience is critical for actually becoming a happier person.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  So I have a morning routine that I dedicate to being both more productive and having higher wellbeing. So I'm managing mood because high negative affect is characteristic of my personality. And I also need to be really productive because the morning hours are when you're most productive, especially in creative stuff. Almost everybody experiences this. And that starts with what you just mentioned, which is called the brahmahorta. And I've studied a lot in India. I go to India every year. I have spiritual teachers, but also I'm very interested in behavioral science in the Vedic tradition. They came to a lot of truths way before Western social science actually came upon this. And one of the ideas was brahmahorta, which in Sanskrit means the creator's time. Now, a mahortas is 48 minutes long.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  So two mahortas, the brahmahorta is an hour and 36 minutes before dawn. And the whole idea, going back thousands of years, is you get up an hour and 36 minutes before dawn and you'll be more creative, more in touch with the divine, more productive, and happier. This was always the contention. So of course, it's been put to the test in modern behavioral science research. And sure enough, we don't know if it's two mahortas is the right number of mahortas, but the whole point is getting up before dawn has incredible impacts on productivity, focus, concentration, and happiness. If you're getting up when the sun is warm, you've lost the first battle for mood management and productivity is what it comes down to. So my days always start before dawn. Now, I usually set the clock for 4:30 in the morning, which is a lot before dawn.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Who knew that Jaco Willink was such a fan of Vedic traditions? He also wakes up at 4:30. Yeah. 4:30 is a good time for a lot of different reasons. You try to retrofit your schedule to what you need to do, for sure. And that's a long time before dawn in the winter and not that long before dawn in the summer. And our listeners in Helsinki are like, what do I do in July? I mean, okay, you know, you have to tailor the routines to what you're doing. But it's very clear that this is good for productivity and very good for happiness. And then the most important thing is what do you do right after that? Yeah, what do you do? I pick up heavy things and run around. Okay. So the most important room in my house is the gym. And I've always had a good gym in my house, down in the basement of my house. Now, down in the basement of my house is also living one of my kids and his wife and their two sons. So I have to be real, I have to be real quiet.

• 6:36Tim Ferriss?

  So everything's quiet.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Clanking around down there because, so like, I don't want to wake up my grandchildren. But, you know, I do, generally speaking, two thirds resistance, one third zone two. But I tailor that to what my day is going to look like. So if I have a sedentary day, I'll do more zone two to start the day. And if I know I'm walking around, I'm walking around campus or whatever I have to do. I know I'm going to be walking seven or 10 miles that day. I'll do all resistance. And so that really depends. Or if I'm going on a hike with my wife on Saturday or something. But that's seven days a week. I do an hour in the gym, seven days a week.

• 7:07Tim Ferriss?

  What would the, let's just say, prototypical two thirds resistance, one third zone two, or whatever the, the ratio might look like as a template? What would that look like? What type of exercises, free weights, equipment, kettlebells? What type of zone two do you like? Because for instance, like with zone two, it's like I travel a lot. Stationary bikes can be a real hassle because of the fitting. But then, all right, maybe you use a treadmill with an incline with a ruck sack or something like that. I'd just love to know the specifics.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  For sure. I'm very old school. So my resistance training, actually, I learned the routines that I do when I was in my 30s. I really started lifting when I was in my 30s. And, you know, my dad died and I, I changed a lot of the things in my life. I quit drinking alcohol in my 30s. And I did a lot of things differently than I hadn't done before because I wanted to not have the future that I saw, you know, and the windshield of my life. And one of the things that I did was I started getting serious about my fitness and going to the gym. And I thought to myself, you know, what's my goal? My goal is not to, you know, turn into a statue and, you know, be admired. I mean, I'd been married for a long time at that point. That was sort of done. And besides, my wife doesn't care. She just wants to be happy and healthy. I wanted to be doing that in my 70s. I wanted to be healthy in my 70s.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  I wanted to be hanging out with my wife and, you know, dandling my 11th grandchild on my knee when I was 78 years old. So what I did was I've always been on tour. I've always traveled constantly all throughout my career. Every city I'd go to, I'd find the oldest iron gym I could find. Why? Because that's where the old dudes train. That's where like the shredded guys train. And now I'm the old guy, right? So my wife says that, you know, sleeping with me is like holding a leather sack of ropes.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  I think it's compliment, I'm not sure, you know, but I've been married decades, Tim, decades, but I would go to these iron

• 9:01Tim Ferriss?

  Better than a leather sack of lard, right?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. It's like ropes. Yeah. So I'd go to these gyms for 78 year old guys who are completely shredded. They look like, you know, old roosters and they're, they're working out and I would say, teach me, teach me, maestro, you know, the sensei, teach me what you do. And they would give me this advice and I followed that advice assiduously. And so what it is, is I'm old school, push, pull legs, don't use a bar.

• 9:27Tim Ferriss?

  And is it push, pull legs every workout?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  No, it's push, pull legs on different days.

• 9:31Tim Ferriss?

  Got it.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  It's not a pure bro split, but it's near on.

• 9:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Right? Making sure that you're not getting heroic with the amount of weight. You're making sure that you're using dumbbells and not bars because you can get full range of motion. You're super careful about your joints. If you have any pain in your joints, you back off. You do for volume, you do more reps as opposed to more weight. And I'll always be doing it that way and dial it down, the actual weight dialing up the reps as you get older. And these are these basic ideas. So it's push, pull legs. And then I'm doing usually somewhere between 20 minutes and 40 minutes of zone two cardio, which I have an elliptical machine because it's super easy on the joints. And every place, every hotel has got an elliptical machine. They've got a nice elliptical machine at home and that's what I'm doing. And this is an hour. A lot of the time I'm doing it

• 10:16Speaker 01

  without headphones. It's important because you need to concentrate to begin with. That's your most creative time. That's like taking an hour long shower. You get your best ideas if you work out without headphones. There's a lot of good neuroscience on that as well. And that's 4:45 to 5:45 in the morning, every single day. That's the one thing I can really count on is always going to be good. Always going to be good.

• 10:37Tim Ferriss?

  Do you record your workouts?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Videotape my workouts?

• 10:40Tim Ferriss?

  No, in any type of like workout journal? Or is it so intuitive at this point that you're like, I really know since I'm using dumbbells and dumbbells should be consistent from place to place?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  I can tell you what I did on this day in 2001.

• 10:54Tim Ferriss?

  Meaning you remember it?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  No, meaning it's written down.

• 10:56Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. I was just like, wait a second.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 10:58Tim Ferriss?

  There's some people who are like that.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Sort of a Rain Man deal?

• 11:01Tim Ferriss?

  Well, for instance, people you wouldn't expect, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:05Tim Ferriss?

  Loves chess. And when I first interviewed him, I was talking to his right hand man, he said, oh, he plays chess daily. With X number of people over the course of a week or two and he keeps track of every game and every score in his head.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  That's amazing. So no, I'm not doing that, but I can tell you, I mean, I've got, I have journals to go back of, you know, I write it down. And so I know, you know, what's on what day and, you know, what I did. There's a whole lot of things that I keep records of for sure, just so I understand my own progress in life, making sure I'm not making regress in life. And for some reason, I got into the pattern of writing down every single workout going back, you know, until back to my thirties. And now I'm 61 years old. So that's a lot of date books.

• 11:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I have workouts going back to 16 and I still, I still have all of them.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I don't know why I keep them, but I have them.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  I can tell you behaviorally why people do that. I mean, what you want is record of progress because that's one of the great secrets to human happiness. You never arrive. Arrival gives you almost nothing, but a progress toward the goal. And this is a record of Tim's progress going all the way back to 16. It's evidence that you're a better man than when you were 16 years old.

• 12:11Tim Ferriss?

  Let's hope. Certainly not as strong as I was when I was in my twenties, but still zone two, not dying.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  No, yeah, no, it's fantastic. It's really a great way to start the day. And there's a lot of research, once again, on, and this is especially important for mood management. So half of the population is above average in negative affect. Negative affect is strong negative manifestation of mood. And obviously if it's the median, half has to be above that and half has to be below. And I'm way above average in negative affect. I'm above average in positive affect too. Yeah, I mean, you're a mad scientist, which is typically.

• 12:45Tim Ferriss?

  Poet. We talked about this last time.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Oh, we did this. You are a poet. So you're below average positive.

• 12:49Tim Ferriss?

  Below average positive, high peak negative.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  High peak negative. So I'm at the 90th percentile in negative mood. And there are ways, typical ways that people self-manage negative mood that are really, really bad for you, like drugs and alcohol, like internet use, like pornography. Horrible negative mood management.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Workaholism, awful. People distract themselves. The amygdala of the brain is what largely manages fear and anger, but the amygdala also manages attention. And so if you can distract yourself with something you can count on, like your work, what you're effectively doing is you're managing your anger and fear by redirecting the activity of the amygdala.

• 13:30Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds right. Checks it out.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  But there's good ways to do it, like developing your spirituality and picking up heavy things and running around.

• 13:36Tim Ferriss?

  So we're gonna stick on the heavy things for a second here, as well as the elliptical.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Because we're not even done with that.

• 13:40Tim Ferriss?

  We're not even done. So we have the waking early. Let's call it 4:30. For me, early 7:30 this morning. I was very pleased with myself after arriving from travel.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Hey, that's 4:30 on the west coast.

• 13:53Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly, exactly. It's 4:30 somewhere. And we've covered that briefly. For zone two, are you wearing a heart rate monitor? Are you doing the talk test? How are you tracking?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Talk test. It's the talk test. It's just keeping it as simple as possible. I tend to go insane if I'm over measured. And so that's one of the reasons I use very, very simple biometrics and very simple health. I'm gonna need to move up to something better at some point, but if I get too much data, I'm in trouble.

• 14:22Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, it's like having seven different drafts of a piece of writing you're working on. Now, what do you do? I mean, in a sense, there's data and then there's information, which you need to analyze. So there is a point of diminishing returns.

• 14:39Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Longtime listeners know that I love weight training. I love it. Lot of bang for the buck. I tend to do less endurance training. I just find it so boring, but there are times when I need some endurance, some gas in the tank. For instance, each year I head from sea level in Austin to around 10,000 feet of elevation for a week-long expedition with friends in the mountains. We carry a lot of weight and I need to keep up. So for months prior to that, that is where HUMAN comes in, H-U-M-A-N. And I've used it for years. I first learned about HUMAN's endurance formula, Super Beats Sport, a decade From a friend who is a multiple time world champion and she's not alone.

• 15:23Tim Ferriss?

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• 16:05Tim Ferriss?

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• 16:50Tim Ferriss?

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• 17:32Tim Ferriss?

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• 17:42Tim Ferriss?

  Talk test for people, just very briefly. Peter Tia has videos on this of himself on a stationary bike demonstrating it on social media, if you want to try to find them. But in effect, and please tell me if I'm off base without you approach it. You are able to, while you're in this zone two on, say, an elliptical stationary bike treadmill, you're able to speak or have a conversation with very short sentences, but you don't really want to.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Right. That's exactly right. Zone three, you're too out of breath, have a normal conversation. Zone four, you're gasping for air. Zone one is just, you're strolling is kind of what it comes down to. And your heart rate to be in the zone two is usually around 120 beats per minute. And I'll also do some periods of, you know, some intervals in that I'll do two or three intervals during a half hour zone two cardio session. So I'll take it up to 160 beats per minute for a full minute to bring it back. I'll do some of that HIIT training while I'm doing it. But 120 beats per minute is a really, really easy thing to ascertain because it's, I'm an old musician. That's the speed of a Souza march.

• 18:42Tim Ferriss?

  A what?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Souza march. Dun dun da dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. That's 120 beats per minute. That's how you know.

• 18:55Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, when you put out your elliptical E-course, I think this is the lead in music.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  It's my bulk music, man.

• 19:01Tim Ferriss?

  Before we get to after the exercise, for folks who might be interested in really diving into this, number one, Peter has a lot on it. Number two, if you want to get nerdy, the Morpheus device has been recommended to me by folks like Andy Galpin and others. There are other options, but that seems to be a pretty good device. So in terms of developing, if you're not a former French horn player, the intuition of what is 120 or 130 beats per minute, you can do, much like I've already done with, say, glucose readings or ketone readings, I know where I am, but I'm not yet there with heart rate.

• 19:42Tim Ferriss?

  The Morpheus is a nice tool for learning what it feels like to be at 120 versus 130 versus whatever it might be. All right, you have your workout. After the workout, what is your morning routine?

• 19:53Speaker 01

  I get cleaned up. Then I go to mass. I'm a Catholic. I go to mass every day. And that's the experience of transcendence, which my path is not the only path. Say, everybody's gotta go to mass. And that's not gonna be effective because that's not for everybody. There is a period of reflection and transcendence that's very, very important for not just mood management, for productivity that's going to follow. And there's a lot of neuroscience behind why that is effective. But for me, it's also an opportunity because that's my wife gets up at six. And when I'm home, I'm home about half the time. I'm on tour about half the time. I'm home. I'm home every week. So I don't go on tour for months at a time. I go on tour for days at a time, which means that I've always got a flight home. And that's inconvenient.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  But that's actually a part of my life protocols is making sure I spend every single weekend at home. I'm out maybe four weekends a year. And so that means I have lots of days at home. I have at least three or four mornings at home and we start the day at six thirty mass. The two of us do that's very important.

• 20:50Tim Ferriss?

  How long is mass?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Half an hour. Daily mass is half an hour. You know, Sunday mass is an hour. But you know, daily masses happen. You know, during the week, after thirty minutes, no souls are saved.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  According to science, no. So we do that. And that's a period of prayer and reflection. Some people prefer Vipassana meditation. Our friend Brian Holiday does a lot with actually studying the historic philosophers. But you need what the ancients would call the holy hour. And they would be a full hour. For me, it's the holy half hour. And that really works. And it's really good for my relationship and it's very good for, it's incredibly good for focus and concentration.

• 21:25Tim Ferriss?

  So I want to bookmark just to give a shameless plug for our first conversation.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:31Tim Ferriss?

  For people who are like, oh, yeah, okay, well, I didn't grow Catholic. You didn't grow Catholic. Your parents thought that your conversion was an act of youthful rebellion.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Which it might have been.

• 21:43Tim Ferriss?

  It might have been, but it's fair, but it's stuck.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:46Tim Ferriss?

  So if you want the backstory, including some wild stories, then listen to our first conversation.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  So I'm basically the equivalent of like a freaked out hippie who, you know, went to India and got converted and practiced an exotic religion for the rest of my life. But my exotic religion is Catholicism.

• 22:05Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, depending on where you start, it's pretty exotic.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:09Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So you have the holy half hour.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:13Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, our routines have a lot of similarities.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 22:16Tim Ferriss?

  Although the flavors are slightly different. We could talk about that.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Probably the neurophysiological effects are the same.

• 22:21Tim Ferriss?

  Very, very similar, I would imagine. So after the holy half hour, what happens?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  After the holy half hour, now I've taken no nutrition except for salty water with some, you know, a high dose. I take high dose creatine monohydrate with my, my workout drink.

• 22:37Tim Ferriss?

  What's high dose?

• 22:38Speaker 01

  High dose for me is 15 to 20 grams a day.

• 22:40Tim Ferriss?

  That is, okay.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  The first five is for, you know, muscle protein synthesis or volumization of muscles, which is really good for your workout. The other is for this just exploding area of research on the biological benefits of it, the neurobiological benefits of it. And for me, that's really, really important because, you know, I'm a crummy sleeper. And, and Rhonda Patrick has done a lot of stuff on how creatine is really good when you don't sleep. It's also really good because I'm gonna, I'm trying to bank neurologically four hours of, it's mostly creativity. I have to set myself up for optimal creativity. And that's one of the best ways to do it. That's the best supplement that I've been able to find that affects my creativity later on in the morning. So I'm adding that to my pre-workout drink. Taking no caffeine.

• 23:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  This is important. I don't take any caffeine to wake up. Huberman's right on this. This is very contested in the literature about A2A adenosine and how caffeine blocks adenosine receptors. But I really believe, and Huberman believes this, but I find this the most compelling explanation and it absolutely works for me. I don't use caffeine to wake up. I use caffeine to focus. Because what I want is I actually want circulating adenosine to metabolize and to clear endogenously. And I want lots and lots of clarity, plenty of open parking spots for the adenosine receptors that I can then fill two to three hours after I wake up with caffeine. This is just modafinil. At this point, this is just vacuuming. This is gonna vacuum.

• 24:09Tim Ferriss?

  Be careful with actual metafenol, kiddos.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  No, no, I know. Yes, I got that. I'm saying, not that. So it's vacuuming the dopamine in the prefrontal cortex. What ADHD drugs do is that they keep more dopamine in the synapse, especially in the prefrontal cortex, such that you can focus. You have more concentration and you have more creativity. And caffeine is great for this. A lot of people like nicotine. I don't like nicotine only because I was hopelessly addicted to cigarettes early on in my life. All the way through my twenties, I was a smoker. I blew it.

• 24:41Tim Ferriss?

  Well, a lot of people are step by step blowing it also with first microdosing nicotine and then lo and behold, since it's sort of dance partners in addictive potential with heroin.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:55Tim Ferriss?

  Then those microdoses become something along the line of mesodoses and then before you know it, you're addicted to nicotine.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Pretty soon, it's all nicotine all the time.

• 25:04Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  And, and you know, caffeine is highly addictive as well, but as a psychostimulant, it's better studied. It's much, much easier to self-manage. You know, I get usually about 380mg of caffeine.

• 25:15Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that's decent.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  It's decent.

• 25:16Tim Ferriss?

  Holy cow.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a venti dark roast from Starbucks. I grew up in Seattle town.

• 25:21Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, 380, for a lot of people, if you have moderately strong coffee, that's gonna be almost four cups of coffee.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, that's power. 20 ounces of, you know, good. I mean, and again, the darker roasts have less caffeine.

• 25:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  But I like them better because I grew up on the north side of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle when there was one Starbucks. And so I've been doing that since I was in eighth grade.

• 25:42Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So you have the holy half hour.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:45Tim Ferriss?

  And then after the holy half hour, you haven't had any caffeine up to that point.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And now it's 7:15 in the morning.

• 25:52Tim Ferriss?

  All right, now.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  So I'm back from mass.

• 25:53Tim Ferriss?

  Now what do you do?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  I brew the coffee.

• 25:54Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  And I know how to brew coffee.

• 25:56Tim Ferriss?

  Now, do you have the 380 in a mega dose or is that titrated over time?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  No, that's in a mega dose that usually it takes me about 45 minutes to drink.

• 26:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh my god.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Caffeine already 45 minutes to drink. I know. Well, part of it is I've got this grizzled adrenal system.

• 26:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  This my HPA axis is like a building falling down at this point. So.

• 26:15Tim Ferriss?

  Just have to donkey kick your adrenals.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:18Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, got it.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:19Tim Ferriss?

  So then you you brew the coffee.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, then I I make my first nutrition of the day. And the first nutrition of the day is 60 to 70 grams of protein. And protein is really important, especially with a tryptophan rich source of protein for mood management. Now, I'm not eating a turkey leg. I'm not, you know, like Henry the eighth. It's mostly whey protein powder mixed in with nonfat, unflavored Greek yogurt. Which is great. And there's so many. And it's like anymore. I just read that the fastest growing foods in America today are cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, and whey protein powder. It was just extraordinary, extraordinary when you think about it. You and I got to this much earlier, back when it was harder to find Greek yogurt. And I put a little, you know, artificial sweetener in it because I'm not afraid of artificial sweetener.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  And I get more micronutrients in it with putting in walnuts and blueberries and, you know, things that actually give me the micronutrients that I need. By the way, I've also taken a multivitamin at this point. I take a multivitamin every day. I've been taking a multivitamin for decade after decade after decade. And there was these papers that were coming out five years ago saying that they're not only ineffective, they're bad for you. That's all been overtaken by events. And the newer research actually says it has neurocognitive protective benefits. Take your multivitamins. And there are a lot of ways to do it. You know, sometimes I'll take a, you know, good multivitamin in the morning. Sometimes I wait later in the day and take AG1. But you need a good multivitamin. Almost everybody does.

• 27:40Tim Ferriss?

  So a few, not persnickety, but detail questions, because that's how my mind operates. Why no fat Greek yogurt instead of something with?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Fat would be better for me, to be sure. It's that the fat bothers my stomach. So it's just, I don't like it. It fills me up too much. It's hard to get to 65 grams of protein. When you've got that much fat in the yogurt, because it's, you're gonna, it's gonna be just falling asleep. I only do that because it's uncomfortable to have the fat.

• 28:07Tim Ferriss?

  And I'll add just a footnote for some people listening will say, wait a second. I thought you could only absorb 30 grams of protein at a sitting. That is

• 28:15Speaker 01

  That's old school research.

• 28:16Tim Ferriss?

  Not quite. Yeah, it is somewhere between an old wives tale and just a statement that has been repeated so much that it's taken to be true, but it's not true.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  It's not true.

• 28:25Tim Ferriss?

  And in fact, there is, or I should say, there are some data to suggest that as you get older, you actually absorb protein more effectively in a larger bolus, meaning more protein at fewer sittings.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  But I'm completely persuaded by the research and over the years, I've experimented a lot with that in my diet, just in the protocols of my eating. And what I found over the past five years in particular, is that I'm most comfortable, because I'm naturally genetically really lean. I'm most comfortable when I'm sub 10 body fat. And the way for me to do that.

• 28:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, me too. I'm kidding.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  But it's just, you know, because of my genetics.

• 29:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. Been trying to get there since I was 14.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Well, if, if, you know, the, the genetics don't want it, then they're gonna, they're gonna militate against it.

• 29:11Tim Ferriss?

  Battle dwarf genetics.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  No, man, if I had your frame, I mean, I would, I would love that. I would be able to lift heavy. But the way to do that for me is to stay at 200 grams of protein a day. So to keep moderate calories and 200 grams of protein a day, and then I can keep my body fat where I want it, where I feel really good, and I'm never hungry. And that's the way to do it, is a really protein rich diet. And of course, now popular culture is catching up with what we've known scientifically for a pretty long time.

• 29:39Tim Ferriss?

  So you get your colossus of caffeine that can follow the holy half hour just to keep up with the iteration.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Not everybody has to drink 380 milligrams of caffeine.

• 29:49Tim Ferriss?

  You have your, your 60 to 70 grams of protein as described. And then you are sitting down to write? What are you doing?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, then I can sit down to write. If I'm at home, then I sit down to write. And there's no distractions. I mean, there's no meetings, there's no Zoom. I mean, if the President of the United States or the Pope calls, there will be a morning meeting, but that's kind of it, you know? And I've got a very quiet place. I'm not looking at email. I'm not, you know, answering text messages. I'm not looking for, I'm not reading the Wall Street Journal. And to do this with, when I set myself up this way, I get four hours of productivity, and that's very unusual. If you're doing things the old fashioned way, you know, you're getting up when the sun is warm and you're having a nice big, you know, three espressos to try to wake up and you're not optimizing your brain chemistry appropriately, you'll get two hours of creativity max.

• 30:37Tim Ferriss?

  Max.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  That's why, you know, Hemingway used to write for two hours away.

• 30:40Tim Ferriss?

  I was just gonna bring up Hemingway also because he would leave things unfinished. He would basically end mid-paragraphs so that he had momentum in starting the following day. And I suppose my question is, in a world of ubiquitous interruption and notification, where you have iMessage on your computer, you have ChatGPT, you have research that you might do concurrently with your writing, there are different ways to approach writing. How do you set yourself up, say, the day before such that you can sit down without interruption or self-interruption for four hours and write?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  To begin with, you need to know what you're gonna do the next day, the day before. You need to make a list of the things you're gonna do in priority order. And the priority order is not what you like the most, but what actually requires the most concentration and creativity. So the thing you need to hit immediately, which will be the last 10% of that page you were writing. That's a really good protocol to procrastinate that last 10%, because your most creative, most productive, your best quality stuff is first. And so you want to leave the last to be the first the next day. And that way you've got consistent creativity. If I'm running a column, I'm on deadline every single week for a column, and it's 1,200 words a week of science about human happiness.

• 31:58Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds stressful. Sounds like a way to make yourself unhappy.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I'm hunted, but. Doing that, if I sit down and write it, the kicker is always going to be worse than the lead.

• 32:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And so the kicker is always the first thing in the morning someday.

• 32:12Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Right? So the kicker is as good as the lead or better. Because I'm leaving it so that my, my brain chemistry is optimized to the product that I'm trying to create. That was a very good protocol from, from Hemingway. His problem was, he was a drunk. And when you're drunk, what you're doing is you're borrowing tomorrow's dopamine tonight.

• 32:30Tim Ferriss?

  You're borrowing, as a friend of mine put it also, you're borrowing happiness from tomorrow.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and the reason is because your dopamine is going to be below the baseline and you're going to have anhedonia in the morning. Anhedonia is the characteristic of clinical depression, which is a deficit of dopamine, meaning you, an inability to feel pleasure. And it's below the baseline when you're hungover, below the baseline when you've popped it really hard and you're getting the trough the next day. If you drink at night and if you want to be productive the next morning, this morning starts last night. And it starts by going to bed at a reasonable time sober, which we'll probably get to at the end of this conversation.

• 33:05Tim Ferriss?

  So that's why he had two hours of productivity. Well, also because if you need any, and this is my kind of repeated realization that should be top of mind all the time, which is if you wear an Oura ring, a whoop band, the one conclusion that you will come to over and over again is if you drank before bed, even a few hours before bed, your sleep is garbage.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Your sleep, their architecture is so messy.

• 33:32Tim Ferriss?

  It's just, so for me now, for whatever reason, at this age, I'm 48. Even once, I had one martini with my brother. I don't see him that much. We went out to a nice speakeasy, had a drink and just shattered my sleep. It was shocking to me, kind of embarrassing.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  The older you get, the older you get. And you know, the truth is that. Young people are figuring out what people my age didn't when I was, I mean, I drank very heavily in my twenties and thirties. It's what we did. I was a musician. It's what we did. We knew it wasn't good for us, but the truth of the matter is that all euphorics, if it's euphoric, if it gets you buzzed, it's neurotoxic. And you have to be careful applying neurotoxic substances to yourself because you're going to pay a price for that. Now, there's a cost benefit analysis to anything. I don't drive the safest car. You know, I don't drive a car that if it crashes, I will be completely safe no matter what. I drive something I like. I'm making a cost benefit analysis. But the truth is that many people are not, they think it's costless to get buzzed. It's not. Just isn't.

• 34:36Tim Ferriss?

  Your routine, I'll just pause us there, is very, very similar to mine.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Tell me more.

• 34:42Tim Ferriss?

  Well, right now, I'm day three of segueing into ketosis. And we're always producing ketones, but I'm probably, just because I've done this a lot, I'm probably at right now, like 1.2 millimolars in terms of blood concentration of like beta hydroxybutyrate after.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  You like ketosis. You like how it feels.

• 35:04Tim Ferriss?

  I love how it feels in terms of mental acuity. I also, because I have neurodegenerative diseases in my family and metabolic dysfunction, see doing, let's just call it four to six weeks of nutritional ketosis, once or twice a year, to appear to be very cheap insurance.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  What's your ApoE profile?

• 35:28Tim Ferriss?

  ApoE 3.4.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  You're 3.4?

• 35:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, 3.4.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:31Tim Ferriss?

  And there are other risk factors. I also have relatives who are 3.3, but nonetheless developed early Alzheimer's. So I'm like, yeah, you know what? I like how I feel. I need less sleep. When I'm in ketosis, I naturally wake up very, very alert, which is unusual for me. So I wanted to mention that first, just to set the stage in a way. So I, for decades, did minimum 30 grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking up. I still think that is a great option. For me now, for a host of reasons that I could get into, but I'll keep it simple. I almost always do intermittent fasting, where I am fasting until 2:00 or 3:00 PM in the afternoon.

• 36:14Tim Ferriss?

  But when I wake up, like this morning, I woke up at 7:30 and I was preparing for this conversation. So I wanted to block out a few hours to do that. But woke up, had, now this is mildly stimulating, but I wanted to have a little bit because I'm also jet lagged and arrived at around midnight last night. Had some cacao with a little bit of cacao butter mixed in.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 36:39Tim Ferriss?

  Just enough, under three grams of net carbs.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Cause you're keeping your net carbs to 30 a day, probably, right?

• 36:46Tim Ferriss?

  Keeping my net grams to, for me personally, right now, under 10 grams.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Under 10, that'll get you into ketosis fast.

• 36:53Tim Ferriss?

  Under 10, yeah. Especially if I am already adapted to intermittent fasting. So that I'm doing 16 to 18 hours of fasting with a short 68 hour window of eating. Once you get to 16 to 18 hours, especially if you're doing some exercise, let's just say in the morning or any other point, you're depleting your liver glycogen and you're going to get into the habit. Your metabolic machinery will develop the habit and the capability of producing ketones, even when you are eating carbohydrates in that limited window of eating.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  So. And you don't take exogenous ketones?

• 37:29Tim Ferriss?

  I will occasionally, on a day like today, because I know that I'm on effectively, let's call it day two and a half of segueing into ketosis. I think my natural production is roughly where I mentioned. My natural production right now is probably around 0.9. I took, let me just back up. So I wake up at 7:30, I have the cacao plus some cacao butter. Then I sit in, I have a hot tub. This is like one of my indulgences. It's not actually that expensive, but I sit in a hot tub and I meditated for 10 minutes with an app, the Way app. Henry Shookman is my spirit animal. Amazing mindfulness slash zen focused

• 38:14Tim Ferriss?

  practice. Did that 10 minutes. That's it. Got out. It is pretty chilly right now in Austin. Gets down to, I think, last night was 37 low. Got into my pool for a few minutes and got out, cold shower, came back in and then sat down. And this was my kind of deep work prep, right? No interruptions. Then-

• 38:37Speaker 01

  There's non trivial similarity to what I'm trying to do neurocognitively.

• 38:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. And then on the way here, about 15 minutes prior to arriving, knowing my start time, there were a few other bells and whistles that I threw in nutritionally in terms of supplements and so on, earlier in the morning, but had one nitro cold brew from Starbucks and about 15 milliliters of exogenous ketones. In this case, it's BHB bonded to 1,3 butane dial, which I do have some reservations about. Long-term chronic use, I think, could be liver toxic, but I'm doing it very intermittently. And so for the, let's

• 39:20Tim Ferriss?

  just call it four days of segue into nutritional ketosis, I will use exogenous ketones sometimes as a boost. And that's it. So that was, that was the-

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And it's working great for you. And here's a big takeaway, I think. You got to that through experimentation. You didn't get that by, you know, getting it off the internet. You learned a lot about these different variety of protocols and you tailored it and tried it and over a number of years came upon what worked best for you. And it's exactly what I've done too. And everybody watching needs to treat their life like a lab. Experimentation is king. Experimentation is, the precursor to good experimentation is information, is scientific information. And then it's getting experience through the experimentation and figuring out what your own protocol actually is. Because as they say in the ads, your results may differ.

• 40:16Tim Ferriss?

  You're right, exactly. And so for me, if I'm weight training, I will typically weight train late afternoon. That's just always been my preference. But if we had not had this podcast today, I would have done zone two training.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  In the morning.

• 40:30Tim Ferriss?

  Right, exactly. So after the meditation.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Before you eat.

• 40:33Tim Ferriss?

  Before I eat.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  You like fasting cardio.

• 40:35Tim Ferriss?

  After meditation, I do like fasting.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:37Tim Ferriss?

  Especially when I'm trying to get into ketosis or intermittent fasting, because it'll help me deplete that, the glycogen, stored glycogen at a faster rate. If it is too high, just for people who may be interested in intermittent fasting or ketosis, if the exertion level is too high, or if it is resistance training, sometimes it will spike glucose in such a way that makes it a little counterproductive if you're trying to get into ketosis. So the zone two.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Because your stress hormones are.

• 41:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you're already going to have increased cortisol in the morning. You need that to wake up. And also with caffeine, oftentimes you'll see a pretty noticeable spike in glucose. So I try not to compound it by doing the weight training in the morning.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  At this point in the cycle of getting into ketosis, do you have headaches?

• 41:26Tim Ferriss?

  I had a mild headache yesterday. I will say that the biggest cheat for me in terms of getting into ketosis quickly and relatively painlessly is training my body to intermittently fast. And I have been in ketosis dozens of times in my life. And I've done extended periods, six months in ketosis and so on, particularly when I was actually training for sports, which seems counterintuitive, but I was doing something called the cyclical ketogenic diet, which is really interesting. When I was training for the National Chinese Kickboxing Championships in 99, that was an amazing system for cutting weight, getting lean, but also maintaining or adding some muscle mass.

• 42:10Tim Ferriss?

  In any case, people can look it up.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  You're confusing your system in a cycle, right? You're staying out of equilibrium in a way, right?

• 42:15Tim Ferriss?

  You're definitely doing that. What you're doing with the CKD, people can look it up. There are many people who have pioneered this. Mara Di Pasquale with the anabolic diet. There are different names for it. Dan Duchesne way back in the day also talked about this. But you are providing a short window, once a week, where you are, in my case, doing a glycogen depletion weight training workout. And then you are spiking the hell out of your carbohydrate intake for, let's call it 15 hours, something like that. And you are really piling in carbohydrate. And you are leveraging insulin as a storage hormone and anabolic signaling pathway to ensure that you can pack on some muscle

• 42:59Tim Ferriss?

  while you are in, on average, a ketotic state, which is very, very hard to do otherwise. I don't do that anymore because it's just too much brain damage, frankly.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Well, that's a lot to think about. That becomes a full-time job, is the protocol becomes the full-time job.

• 43:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, which is not the point, right? In my case, I'm sure in your case, like the protocol is in service of life. Life is not in service of the protocol.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  The protocol is supposed to work for you. You're not supposed to work for your protocol.

• 43:26Tim Ferriss?

  And we're not going to belabor this point. But in a world, and people, there's a great Chuck Palahniuk quote that I don't want to get wrong, people can look it up, but basically says, you know, big brother isn't watching you. He's entertaining you, like entertaining you to death. And just talking about the sort of modern digital ecosystem and the role of technology, et cetera. But suffice to say, if you can single task for four hours from a competitive advantage perspective, like you're

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Not using pharmaceutical-grade, you know, psychostimulants.

• 43:55Tim Ferriss?

  You're in an elite group.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely elite group. And you absolutely can do it with proper health and exercise disciplines.

• 44:06Tim Ferriss?

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• 44:48Tim Ferriss?

  the supplement industry. So check them out. Subscribe today to try the next gen of AG1. Listeners will also get a free bottle of D3K2 and AG1 Welcome Kit and AG1 Travel Packs with your first order. So start your journey with AG1's Next Gen and experience the difference firsthand. Simply go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drinkag1.com/tim. Hey folks, Tim here. My bestselling card game Coyote, which I made with the amazing team at Exploding Kittens, just won the Pop Insider Best Geeky Game of 2025 and also Best Stocking Filler in the Made for Mums Toy Awards 2025. It is on sale everywhere. It's cheap,

• 45:33Tim Ferriss?

  it's fast to learn, and has 4.8 stars out of 5. People are loving it. CoyoteGame.com will take you to all the retailers, but you can find it everywhere. It is a game of thinking fast and laughing faster. Think charades, meets hot potato, meets a bunch of brain fun. It's good for your head. It's perfect for families with kids age 10 plus or adults who are kids at heart or don't take themselves too seriously. A lot of adults love this game. And as I said, it's available everywhere. Amazon, Walmart, Target, 8,000 plus retail locations, you name it. So please check it out. I loved making it. People are really enjoying it. It has 300 or 400 million plus social views of gameplay online. And try it,

• 46:14Tim Ferriss?

  enjoy it this holiday season. Check it out, CoyoteGame.com. One more time, that's CoyoteGame.com or anywhere you buy your games. Now, back to the episode.

• 46:28Tim Ferriss?

  I'll just say to your point, managing the physiology, had a great conversation with Dave Bazooki recently, who's the founder, co-founder and CEO of Roblox. And he and his wife are the largest, well, their foundation is the largest funder of metabolic psychiatry research, including ketogenic therapy, which includes Chris Palmer at Harvard.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  That stuff's super interesting.

• 46:51Tim Ferriss?

  Ketosis, for me, it is like taking Medafinil and all of the kind of short-term powerful but long-term penalty drugs that I've tested.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Have you ever tried, have you ever taken a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, an SSRI?

• 47:06Tim Ferriss?

  I have never taken one for antidepressant. I have taken what is similar, it's not exactly an SSRI, but I have used trazodone for sleep.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Trazodone is a monocyclic, right? It's a really early, early generation antidepressant.

• 47:23Tim Ferriss?

  It is effectively a failed antidepressant because it put people to sleep that was repurposed as a sleep drug, is my understanding.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Like Unisom was supposed to make you not sneeze. And it's, doxylamine-6, actually, was supposed to make you, was an antihistamine that was repurposed as a sleeping pill.

• 47:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, there you go. So that is it. But why do you ask about SSRI?

• 47:42Speaker 01

  The reason I ask that is because a lot of people will say that they find that a proper keto diet is better than an SSRI too, for the serotonin effects.

• 47:49Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, if you look at, people should look up Chris Palmer, I had a conversation with him as well, but for mood stabilization, mood elevation, but not in a peak and trough type of way, I have found nothing better than the ketogenic diet.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  That's interesting. So for mood management, this is fundamental.

• 48:11Tim Ferriss?

  It is, it is without exception, the number one with no close second.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  So poets take note.

• 48:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, poets take note. And maybe you should just, we have to revisit this. People are like, what is this mad scientist poet stuff? You want to just explain what we're talking about?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  There are four affect profiles. And affect profiles mean the intensity of your negative and positive emotion. You're born with this. So there are times in your life when you have more positive emotionality or more intense negative emotionality, depending on circumstances. But this is your baseline state. You can be above average positive and above average intensity negative emotion. Those are the mad scientists. That's me. There are some people who-

• 48:51Tim Ferriss?

  You have high highs and low lows.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  I'm all about it's great or it sucks. And it's impossible to be married to a mad scientist. Just, my wife reminded me of that this morning.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  There's, you can be above average positive and below average intensity negative. These are cheerleaders. These are the happiest people. They have some weaknesses. They tend to be bad bosses because they won't accept bad news and they can't give criticism. Like, no bad vibes, man. There are some people who are low low. They're just low affect people. These are the judges. They make really good surgeons. You don't want somebody to cut you open and go, oh my god. That's not what you want. You want somebody who's gonna go, I can take that out. Or, you know, nuclear power reactor operators or something who are really calm.

• 49:34Tim Ferriss?

  Low low means low positive, low negative.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Low positive, low negative.

• 49:38Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. Their sine wave is flatter.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  They're steady, man. I mean, they're not freaking out about anything. And then there are those who are low intensity positive emotion, but high intensity negative emotion. And these are the poets. And the poets are the most interesting. And the reason is because they tend to be the most creative and most romantic. And part of that is because there's this research, all neuroscience research is contested, I should preface this. But there's a part of the limbic system called the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex that is involved in your rumination when you're depressed. Ruminative depression, ruminative sad depression is a heavy activity of the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex. You also use it when you're ruminating on a business plan or writing a symphony, and when you're ruminating on another person because you're falling in love. And that's why poets tend to be depressive, creative, and romantic.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Tim Ferriss, my friends. This is Tim Ferriss.

• 50:28Tim Ferriss?

  That's me in a nutshell.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so the whole point is that you need, no matter who you are, you need to appropriately manage your mood. The essence of self-management is mood management starts with knowledge about who you are. And people go to my website and take a test and figure out who they are, which profile you are. And then you got to figure out what you need to do in mood management. Do you need to elevate positive emotion? Or do you need to manage? You don't need to eliminate negative emotion. You don't want to do that. You'll be dead in a week. Negative emotion is really important for protection. Sadness, anger, disgust, fear. But you want to manage it. So it's not dysregulating. So it's not exaggerated. And there are lots of techniques for doing it. But you got to know what your bigger challenge is by knowing yourself. Then you can proceed to some of these protocols that we're talking about here for appropriate

• 51:13Speaker 01

  mood management based on your challenges is how it works. For you, it's managing positive up and managing negative down. And ketosis is really, really good for both.

• 51:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would say for folks who may fit the poet profile or who are curious about my personal experience that repeatedly, I mean, I've done this now dozens of times. It is very consistent. It completely removes the lowest 50% of my negative and bumps my positive baseline up 20%.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  This is really interesting because this might be the poet's protocol. Ketosis might be the poet's protocol. For me, it's what I eat, how I self-administer caffeine, and it's actually how I do my exercise. When I'm super fasted, first thing in the morning, is incredibly efficacious for managing down my negative affect without accidentally managing down my positive affect.

• 52:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I want to point out another thing about your protocol, which is by having caffeine later. This is my experience because I love caffeine.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:13Tim Ferriss?

  I love stimulants.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  It's the greatest.

• 52:14Tim Ferriss?

  I have to be very careful. If I start later, guess what? What an incredible sleight of hand trick. I consume less. Why? Because I started later.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Right. And no crash.

• 52:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And so I will start later and your total caffeine will be less. Why is this relevant? Because the half-life of caffeine is very long. And if you have too much caffeine early in the day, even if you stop by noon. It will still impact your sleep, sleep architecture and so on.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the older you get, so the half-life, the metabolism of caffeine, it changes over the course of your life and the half-life extends. One of the things that I find for friends of mine who are like me in their 60s, and they'll be like, I'm sleeping, I sleep like crap because I'm old. I say, ah, probably because you have an espresso after lunch. And when you were 30, you could metabolize the caffeine effectively. The half-life was probably eight hours, and now it's probably 14 hours. And it's still in your system bothering you when you're trying to go to sleep at night. Take out that after lunch espresso, move your caffeine, stop drinking caffeine after eight or nine in the morning. It's like magic.

• 53:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it is incredible. I've actually, I reserve coffee, caffeine, like a nitro cold brew for days like today.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:30Tim Ferriss?

  Otherwise, I'm using yerba mate or cacao puerte or some combination thereof.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  You like yerba mate? You like how it makes you feel?

• 53:39Tim Ferriss?

  I love it.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  It's very smooth.

• 53:40Tim Ferriss?

  I love it.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  It's a smooth buzz, as we used to say in high school.

• 53:42Tim Ferriss?

  It really is the smoothest of the smooth.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  I know.

• 53:46Tim Ferriss?

  It's just also the most inconvenient. I like to drink it the Argentine way with.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  With the wood, the wood cup and the metal straw that gets really hot.

• 53:54Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly. Which is probably a great way to give yourself throat cancer, side note, or mouth cancer.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  We'll find out.

• 53:59Tim Ferriss?

  But we'll, yeah, we'll find out. Track the Argies there. There is, people are looking at that very closely. All right, we probably should talk about the meaning of life, small topic.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  It's just a little thing, you know?

• 54:10Tim Ferriss?

  And.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  It's what I've been thinking about for five years.

• 54:12Tim Ferriss?

  I want to know why, after your many books, author 15 books, Build the Life You Want, co-authored with Oprah Winfrey, From Strength to Strength, which was my first introduction to your books, which is an exceptional book, Finding Success, Happiness and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life, and now the meaning of your life, Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Why write this book? So when I came back to academia, I was gone for a long time. I'm a third generation academic, actually. My dad was a professor, his father was a professor. This is the vortex of life. I tried to escape it by being in music all the way through my twenties, but it sucked me in, right? And so this is my natural habitat, but I left for almost 11 years because I was the CEO of a big think tank in Washington DC called the American Enterprise Institute. And when I was gone, I wasn't paying attention to academia. I left at the end of 2008. I came back in 2019. My memory of my academic experience, going back, you know, intergenerationally is the happiest place in the world. Everybody has the best time at college. They make all their friends, they get a bunch of adventures, they get exposed to weird new ways of thinking.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  People loved college and most people say I was happier in college than when I left college. I come back in 2019 and it's like the plague had gone through my village. It was completely different. And in point of fact, clinical depression among adults under 30, especially highly educated adults under 30, college graduates, especially of elite colleges, had tripled. Clinical depression up by 3X, anxiety, generalized anxiety, 2X. And it's not because of a lack of therapy. On the contrary, the number of therapists has gone up by about 4X. And so something's not working. This is what we call in my business is a psychogenic epidemic, which is a simple idea with fancy words because that's how we get tenure and tenure.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  And what it means is there's something that's contagious and creates suffering and has no biological origin, no known biological origin. That's a psychogenic epidemic. So eating disorders and cutting and many things, they'll spread around, create tons of misery, but they're not biological in origin. And so those are harder nuts to crack. The depression anxiety epidemics that we see today are a psychogenic. And so we need to understand what's behind them. And so when I see the data, I mean, I set about my research agenda saying, okay, What's going on? And that's a kind of a Sherlock Holmes, kind of a forensic behavioral science experiment. That's kind of how I do my work. That's the most interesting things to do is to figure out this mystery using the tools or my stock and trade, you know, that I suffered through to get my PhD, you know,

• 56:46Speaker 01

  and applying them a little bit. And one of the things that I do is I just start talking to people and doing a content analysis of what they tell me and see the words that start to pop up. Those are the clues, right? Cause the words will start popping up. And when you do that, the word that kept popping up again and again and again was, I don't know what I'm meant to do. My life feels meaningless. And sure enough, when you do the survey work and ask people if their life feels meaningless, that's the predictor of depression and anxiety. And so we have lots and lots of data out there. We have lots of pop arguments about why, you know, so many young people are depressed today and, you know, people my age are like, cause they're entitled babies and they're not tough enough. And people who are my kids' age, who are in their twenties, they'll say it's because boomers wrecked everything and made houses too expensive and spoiled the environment

• 57:31Speaker 01

  or something. But people have been saying that stuff forever. There's nothing new about that. These psychological effects that we're seeing are new. They're really, really a new thing. So that's not it. Or there's a lot of people, and you've talked a lot on your show about technology and a lot of people say that technology is screwing us up and technology is, really has a big role in what I found. But the problem is not the technology per se, but what we're not getting because of the technology is what we're actually missing.

• 57:59Tim Ferriss?

  Displacing.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  What is it actually that we want that we're not getting? You know, when you have somebody who is deeply malnourished, you don't talk about what's actually creating the malnutrition. You might, that's important, but what they're not getting.

• 58:11Tim Ferriss?

  Right. It's like, okay, you're eating all carbohydrates.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:14Tim Ferriss?

  It's like, it's not that carbohydrates are inherently bad, but the dose makes the poison and by virtue of only eating carbohydrates, you're not getting any amino acids.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  The problem is you're, the protein you're not getting for Pete's sake is what it comes down to. So I wanted to find the protein that was underneath this whole thing. And the content analysis of these interviews is like, what I meant to do, life feels meaningless. I don't know the meaning of life. I'm like, that's too big. That's too big. That's like a big philosophical thing, but I couldn't avoid it is what it came down to. So over the past five years, I've been writing a book about, okay, what is the meaning of life? Where do you find it? And how do you have to live differently so that you can actually find it in modern life? And that's what this book is. And the most interesting part of this was. You know, people say, where do you find the meaning of life? Like church, the beach, Italy, Trenton, New Jersey.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  No offense to Trenton, I've spent a lot of time there. Seattle, my hometown. We know where you go to find it. And then you have to do certain things. You know, I'm a very protocols guy. And so what this book is, the six protocols for once you know where the meaning of your life is, what you have to do to go there and get it is what it comes about. So the beginning of the book is okay, what's the meaning of meaning? Cause it's too big. Right. It is big. It's too big. The second is where do you find it? And the third thing is how do you have to live differently? That's what this book is. Well, let's start with definitions. That's how I like to roll. Yeah, I know. And that's the most important thing that scientists almost never do, you know, throw out a term and then not define it. So the meaning of life has been, you know, discussed forever. But the best philosophical and psychological definitions, they disassemble

• 59:48Speaker 01

  it into its component parts. So the way that you and I've talked about happiness in the past is that happiness is a combination of enjoyment, satisfaction and meaning. So meaning is a macronutrient of happiness. And when that's missing, that's why you have a happiness problem. But that's the beginning of this whole thing. Meaning in turn has macronutrients, it has component parts to it as well. Psychologists will refer to them as coherence, purpose and significance. Coherence is why things happen the way they do. You have to have a theory of why things happen the way they do, or you won't know the meaning of your life. Meaning how life or why life unfolds for you the way it unfolds. Yeah, things are happening. Like why? So is that picking, I don't want to dislocate the sharing of the three, but No, no.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Just, just, just to, maybe we'll come back to it. Is that coming up with or adopting a story that is enabling? Yeah, it's adopting a story that actually explains things so that life is not inherently random. Okay, but it doesn't need to be objectively accurate in explaining. It's just a, it's your way of seeing things, your understanding of the world is putting things in context. And so things kind of makes sense. Otherwise, it's this random walk through life, which is a definition of meaninglessness. For some people, the model, which is an imperfect model at best, but it's a model nonetheless, it's a physics that explains that is religion. For some people, it's pure on science. For some people, it's conspiracy theories, why things happen the way they do. But those are different sort of models that explain this.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Now, you can also have a hybrid model, which I do. You know, religion and science and all this kind of good stuff. But you gotta do the work to figure out the physics of that. Why things happen the way they do.

• 1:01:27Tim Ferriss?

  So coherence.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  That's coherence.

• 1:01:28Tim Ferriss?

  Is figuring out, why do things happen in my life?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Right. Why do things happen the way they do? You know, why are things happening all the time? The second is purpose. And people often think purpose and meaning are the same thing. They're not. Purpose is a subcomponent of meaning. It is, why am I doing what I'm doing? You know, why am I doing all these weird things every single day? And that has to do with goals and direction. If you don't have goals and direction in your life, everybody has said this. I mean, there's like Napoleon Hill said this, and Dale Carnegie said this. You gotta have an endpoint. In Spanish, there's a great word called el rumbo. Rumbo means, in English, it doesn't have a lot of significance. It's a navigational term that means rum line, which is where you're going. It's the Euclidean path from where you are to where you're going. And you have to have a rum line if you're gonna make any progress.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  You're gonna have any goals and any directions, which you need to have. It doesn't mean that you have to be linearly making progress. But you have to have an idea of what that line might be. That's el rumbo.

• 1:02:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, even if the endpoint changes.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Exactly. So that's why you need an intention. And that's what purpose is all about. Why am I doing what I'm doing? It's the second why question. The why part is really important, as we'll see in a second. The third is significance, which is, why does my life matter? Why does my life matter? And if the answer is, it doesn't, that's a problem. Or, I don't know, that's not good enough. People need to have a concept of why your life matters. And, and the great ways of answering that question are having kids and being married and, you know, believing that God loves you and all kinds of ways to have that significance question answered. So there's a, in my work, in the book, there's a test on where you are in the journey to answering those questions. How close you are, how much you're looking.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  And so that's presence and search. If you're looking, looking, looking, you're a searcher, you're a total seeker. So your search score is gonna be through the roof. Now where you are.

• 1:03:18Tim Ferriss?

  My finding score may not be as high.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Well, that presence, that's presence, right? And what happens over the course of life is that people who search more, their presence score tends to go up, but it might not be that high. So my presence score is very moderate.

• 1:03:34Tim Ferriss?

  Could you explain this just one more time for me? Could you just start that over?

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  So there's two ways to kind of measure where you are in this journey of finding meaning, of searching and finding for meaning. The two ways to do it are what's called search and presence. Search is how intensively you're looking to answer these why questions. You know, why do things happen the way they do? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why does my life matter? That's search. And some people are intent seekers like you, Tim. You're an intent seeker. This show is an exercise in search, right? And part of it is because this is not just a new hack for getting better biceps. This is a new way of trying to understand why we're alive. That's what the show is, kind of the theme of the show. It's why I listen to the show. This is why I learn things, because I'm a seeker too. But then how successful you are is your presence score.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Search and presence. Presence is, ah, I have answers that are satisfactory to me. As you get older, if you seek, your presence score should go up. And mine certainly has.

• 1:04:35Tim Ferriss?

  So is a presence, just to.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  The presence of meaning.

• 1:04:39Tim Ferriss?

  Make sure I'm understanding. It is, one is seeking an answer. And then presence is accepting.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Is having something satisfactory.

• 1:04:49Tim Ferriss?

  All right, got it.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Is having satisfactory. Now, there are some people who have sky high presence scores and really low search scores. Those are people who like, those fortunate individuals who are born going, yep, I know. I'm not going to leave my hometown. Why am I going to leave my hometown? It's awesome here. What do I need to do? I'm going to marry my high school sweetheart. I'm going to work in my daddy's business. And I'm going to go to the church I grew up in. And they're very, very stable. We think of these as conservative individuals. Dispositional conservatives, they tend to have low search and high presence.

• 1:05:20Tim Ferriss?

  Right. And to be clear, this is not.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  This is not political.

• 1:05:22Tim Ferriss?

  Political.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  It might be, but that's not really the point. I'm talking about dispositional conservatism is conserving good things that preceded you. And why are they good things? Because they give you meaning of life is kind of what it comes down to. On the other hand, you might be somebody who's a seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker. And you don't find it very much. And I'm a very moderate in presence is higher than it used to be. My presence of meaning was in the cellar when I was in my twenties for sure. And in my sixties is much, much higher for sure.

• 1:05:51Tim Ferriss?

  What do you attribute the improvement to?

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Is being alive and actually searching a lot and looking at data and optimizing and trying to live a life on purpose is self-managing is. I mean, I'm a behavioral scientist because I want answers and I want answers for me. And so I'm looking for the biggest questions to at least address the biggest questions of my life. That's why I do what I do for a living. My life is an experiment and a pure on revolving adventure.

• 1:06:20Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm curious if I can just interject for a second about the present piece specifically, because I think many people listening to this show will self identify as seekers.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:29Tim Ferriss?

  But there are traps along the way. As you identify as a seeker.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  And I talk about these in the book.

• 1:06:37Tim Ferriss?

  And I'll just tell one quick anecdote and then I'd love to hear how you have improved or whether it's just been maybe not a passive, but something that has unfolded for you, the presence piece specifically. I remember talking to a very, very experienced psychedelic therapy facilitator who's been doing it for many decades, thousands and thousands of different people in sessions. And they told me a story, which they said is common and becoming more common, that people will come in and after their session, they'll say, yeah, I was experiencing so much joy, this beautiful light, this love in the session, but I kept wondering when

• 1:07:20Tim Ferriss?

  I was going to do the real work, when I was going to do the hard work. And the way the facilitator explained it was. In a sense, more and more so, she's running into people who are in pursuit of this durable contentment, satisfaction, joy. But when they experience it in these sessions, they're like, "Yeah, I'll get this out of the way so I can do the hard work to reach the joy." But they're just pushing aside all the joy as they continue their endless seeking.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  They're just not going to take yes for an answer.

• 1:07:51Tim Ferriss?

  Right. So I'm wondering how you learn to take yes as an answer?

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's not easy because when you're a chronic seeker, there's always something more. There's always something new. You can't be there yet. Right? And so the answer to this actually comes, I have two of my kids are Marines. And so I have one enlisted Marine, I have one officer in the Marine Corps. And my daughter's a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps. And she's, right now, she's at Quantico, and she's going through the basic school, you know, getting ready to do her MOS. She wants to be a signals intelligence officer. My son was enlisted. He was a scout sniper. He was in a scout sniper platoon at a Camp Pendleton. And that's a super interesting and dangerous job. And he led a lot, as a non-commissioned officer, he led a lot of guys. What they train Marines to do in leadership is to get to 80% knowledge and then choose and stop looking. Now, that's

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  really, really important because you're going to be paralyzed if you're trying to get to 100% knowledge.

• 1:08:45Tim Ferriss?

  You're never going to have complete information.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Which is what the pure seeker mentality does. If you want to seek and get higher presence, you need to go to 80%. And now, how do you get to 80%? You get to 80% by saying, "I'm pretty sure this is right. And this is right enough that I'm going to turn my attention to another dimension on this." And that means, friends, if you're in love, you should get married. That's what that means.

• 1:09:12Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  That means if you're in love and you know each other, and you think that within three to five years, you really could be best friends. And you have a certain stability of values. Stop looking. Get married. Why? Because the longer you don't get married, the longer you're in search for your soulmate, the more you're putting off the best thing in your life. You're postponing the best thing in your life. Marriage is the best thing in life for most people. I mean, a bad marriage is the worst thing in life, right? But for most people, for men and women, all this fiction about the fact that marriage is good for men but bad for women is all nonsense. Brad Wilcox's research at Virginia is completely clear on this. It's better for everybody. Being in love and living with the person with whom you're in love for the rest of

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  your life is great, but you're not going to get that if you're trying to get to 99% awareness. If you're going to search all the way to the point, because you'll never get that. You're going to have an argument. You're going to have a disagreement. You're going to have doubts. You're going to digest something in a weird way and think, maybe I'm not in love. And the same thing is true with your faith. What am I going to practice? Get to 80% awareness and choose and then decide that that's what you're actually going to do. Use the Marine Rule of Leadership. And then the search can actually lead to presence.

• 1:10:31Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. This is all interesting terrain, which is why I was looking forward to this conversation.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  It's a lot.

• 1:10:36Tim Ferriss?

  It's a lot. It's a lot. And of course, as I said before we started recording, I was like, we're not going to suffer from a lack of topics to talk about. I want to come back to the coherence, purpose, significance, macronutrients of meaning for a moment, just in quick review coherence. Why do things happen in my life, right? Having a story for that that you commit to in a sense. Why am I doing what I'm doing? That's purpose. And then why does my life matter significance? Looking at my peer group, my friends, a lot of people in my audience, it seems like number three, why does my life matter is where people.

• 1:11:20Tim Ferriss?

  Struggle the most, a lot of them. In part, we can talk about the dozens of factors at play, I'm sure. But for some people, and I have some thoughts on this, but for some younger people, it's, I don't know what to do because AI is going to take all the jobs.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:38Tim Ferriss?

  And I don't know, therefore, how my contributions will matter.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  I will become less significant.

• 1:11:44Tim Ferriss?

  I'll become less significant. The climate is irretrievably fucked, which I don't actually believe is the case, but a lot of damage.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  They have certainly heard that.

• 1:11:53Tim Ferriss?

  A lot of damage has been done.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  They've been taught that.

• 1:11:55Tim Ferriss?

  Right, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right? Nuclear Armageddon, that is actually on the list of existential threats, one of the scary ones, in my opinion. Therefore, I don't know how to conclude that my life matters. How did you personally arrive at an answer to this question? Or how do you suggest people explore unpacking that? I have some thoughts. I'll just, rather than burying the lead, I'll just throw it out there, which is, take the time to not just study people who do huge things in short periods of time, but also study people who commit to things that take longer than their lifetimes, like scientists, like.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  Clergy.

• 1:12:35Tim Ferriss?

  Clergy. By simply extending the time horizon, the spectrum of options opens up quite a bit. But I would love to hear you expand.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  That's a very good point. That's a very good point. But there's a compatible point with that, which is, stop looking for your significance at the macro level. Start looking at the micro level, which is your love relationships around you. This is where people feel significance. People feel significance by having children. People feel significance by getting married, or adopting children, as I did. I did both. You know, we did it by markets and by biology.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  And people feel significance by working through their religious tendencies to try to understand their relationship with the divine. This is how most people find significance. You don't find significance by getting a million Instagram followers. You will never find significance by doing that, but that's indeed what we're encouraged to do. You won't find significance by an adequate kind of stable significance by being the world's greatest angry activist. And that's the cult that's actually going on on college campuses all the time. The cult of activism, which is kind of a substitute religion. Significance comes from love. Love is the essence of significance, and it's whom I love and who loves me. That's

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  what it comes down to. And, you know, if the answer is my spouse, my children, my parents, my friends, my creator, those are the big answers that people actually get. But you've got to do the work. You've got to make the commitments and do the work. And a lot of people today, one of the things that I actually find in this book is a lot of young people today don't have those micro commitments, and they're trying to establish macro significance, which is a big problem. You're chasing your tail. It's unstable, and it's probably not even real in a lot of cases.

• 1:14:22Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned something in passing that I think is really important. At least I've come to believe it's helpful to at least try to unpack each person for themselves. Substitute for religion. So you mentioned this cult of the angry activist, and activism has its place, for sure. There are certain things that you can harness anger for, but over the long term, it's not a clean fuel. So this substitute for religion, there's a place called El Arroyo here, which is famous for its signs that it puts out front. There are books that collect these now. I think it's called El Arroyo.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  El Arroyo means the brook, means the stream.

• 1:15:08Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly. Like, de la cuajee arroyero for people who might have spent time in Mexico. That's a long one. Anyway.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  By the way, Arroyo as a surname in English is Brooks.

• 1:15:18Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah, there you go. Look at that.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  In German, it's Bach.

• 1:15:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  As a former musician, I say, coincidence?

• 1:15:28Tim Ferriss?

  So the reason I bring up this joint in Austin is because they have these signs out front that are very funny that have been collected in books since like, what if soy milk is just milk introducing itself in Spanish, right? Like, very funny stuff. They put a lot of them. One is if, and one of them is if someone is vegan and does CrossFit, which do they tell you about first? Which, which I thought was pretty good. And this ties into, I believe it was something David Foster Wallace said, tragic character, brilliant on so many levels, but in effect, and people could track this down. I put in my newsletter at one point, but that we all worship something. And task number one is figuring out what you worship. That's his, yeah.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  We talked about that, right?

• 1:16:14Tim Ferriss?

  Right. So if it's not religion, it's going to be something else. Is it money? Is it fame? We talked about this a bit.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  We did the four idols last time we talked.

• 1:16:22Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly. Pleasure. That's where, where I landed, for better and for worse. And I'm wondering, it seems to me that religion, belief in the divine, might be another way to put it, is almost genetically programmed in humans.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  That's an anthropological empirical regularity. So what we find is that anthropologists, and colluding paleoanthropologists, find there's no civilization that they've ever encountered that doesn't worship.

• 1:16:51Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  There are individuals who don't worship, but there are no cultures that don't have a religious foundation to them. We're built for that.

• 1:16:58Tim Ferriss?

  So if we're looking at, taking a closer look at that, if people want to make the implicit explicit, the subconscious conscious, which I think is really important, because folks are gravitating to these pseudo religions, whether it's CrossFit, veganism, ketogenic, Harvard, Bitcoin, you name it.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Famous, famous university.

• 1:17:18Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Whatever it might be.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Tim Ferriss?

  So trying to put that on one's radar, I think is helpful. But then the question is, okay, if this is hardwired, if this might actually be a constitutional psychological requirement, how do you satisfy that requirement if you are not going to adopt an organized religion?

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  So I've looked a lot.

• 1:17:42Tim Ferriss?

  This is a quest for me.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  No, I hear you.

• 1:17:43Tim Ferriss?

  This is very pleasant for me. I feel like I've made a lot of progress.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Tim Ferriss?

  For myself. But I'd love to hear you.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  So this is a question of not of religion, but of transcendence.

• 1:17:54Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  Transcendence is the phenomenon in which we move from the me self to the I self. In the words of William James, the father of psychology. The I self is looking out and including looking up and standing in awe. The me self is looking in the mirror and thinking about yourself. What we need to actually find meaning, to find significance, paradoxically, is to look less at ourselves. Significance, the sense of significance comes from being, this is really paradoxical. And yet, everybody will understand it when I say it. To feel significance, you need to be less significant. You need to make your less self, less significant. Now, I had this experience where at my university, the most popular class arguably is astronomy one. And they're not astronomers.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  I mean, they're like English majors and business majors, et cetera. And they love the astronomy class. They flock to it. There's lines for the astronomy class. So I finally ask a student, like, why do you love that astronomy one class so much? She's like, I don't know. But like, I go into the morning, Thursday morning at nine o'clock and it's 90 minute class. And I'm bummed out because I just had an argument with my mom and I think I'm breaking up with my boyfriend. And I got a B on a test, which at Harvard is like, the end of the world, right?

• 1:19:04Tim Ferriss?

  Your excommunicated from the church at Harvard.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  I go in at nine and at 10:30 I come out and I say, I'm a speck on a speck on a speck. And I'm at peace. That's transcendence. That's what it is. It's a stand in awe. You've had Dacher Keltner on your show before?

• 1:19:21Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  He's one of the great psychologists of our time. He teaches at Berkeley. And he has a book called awe, A W E.

• 1:19:28Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I thought I recognized the name because I was just reading that book.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  It's a great book.

• 1:19:33Tim Ferriss?

  I was just reading that book just a few months ago.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  That's transcendence. It's to stand in awe in the I self, looking out in awe of the universe, things bigger than you. And there's two dimensions of transcendence. The first is to transcend upward and the other is to transcend outward, which is why worship of the divine, spiritual and religious experiences do this, and also service to others. That's why they both have this kind of transcendent metaphysical experience that people actually get. And that's why when you see moral beauty, somebody serving somebody else, it gives you that. Rhett Dizner, the psychologist, who by the way, is Rainn Wilson's uncle. Yeah. The world's leading expert in moral elevation and the physiological impact of moral elevation.

• 1:20:17Tim Ferriss?

  Rain is very philosophical also.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  He's great. He's great. He's a great friend. We're great friends. We're but we grew up five miles apart from each other in Seattle, the same age. Yeah, we didn't know each other as kids, but we bonded over, you know, watching Gilligan's Island on Channel 11 when we were in fifth grade or something. And it's really important to keep in mind that there are ways to transcend. And there are some really well-established ones to do it. I go to mass every day. It's a venerable way to experience transcendence. And there are other ways to experience transcendence. Now, I'm not going to speak to the metaphysics of who's cosmically right. That's a completely different conversation. I don't know. But I do know when it comes to transcendence, because that's research that I've done. And Lisa Miller has done that. She teaches at Columbia. She does neuroscience and social psychology at Columbia. She's the world's leading expert on how the brain requires transcendence.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  How you get experiences that are completely inaccessible unless you experience transcendence. Lots of ways to do it. You know, study the Stoics and live according to their dictates. Walk the Brahman Mahurta an hour in the morning without devices, starting before dawn. Practice of Vipassana meditation. Listen to the works of Johann Sebastian Bach. And stand in awe of the greatest composer who ever lived, or go to mass.

• 1:21:28Tim Ferriss?

  All right. I want to tee this up. I didn't know what your answer was going to be, but I this is an area, it is one of a few areas that have been of greatest interest and focus for me for the last, well, one could argue, since 2012, but it might even predate that. Particularly, I would say, in the last five years. And for people who are interested in digging into this, and I suggest that almost everyone should be very deeply interested. You mentioned the book awe. There's also some fantastic writing and articles out of Johns Hopkins related to awe. And if awe seems too abstract, I mean, you could think of it as wonder. You could think of it also as self-transcendence. And I'm going to be shooting myself in the foot a little bit because I just wrote 10 pages

• 1:22:11Tim Ferriss?

  on this that I need to refine before putting on my blog. But people think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a pyramid. And at the top, you have self-actualization. In fact, the pyramid and that strict hierarchy were created by consultants and other people who commercialized the writings of Maslow, who later revised that to have self-transcendence.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  At the top.

• 1:22:36Tim Ferriss?

  At the top.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  Top.

• 1:22:37Tim Ferriss?

  And he talked about it much later in his career.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Much later.

• 1:22:40Tim Ferriss?

  Because he got more religious as he got older. People get more religious as they get older. They believe less in Santa Claus and more in God.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  As they get older.

• 1:22:48Tim Ferriss?

  They believe more in death, too.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And life is messy and they come to terms with that. And Scott Baer Kaufman talks a lot about this, you know, the guy who is sort of the master of the dark triad and a lot of pathologies, but he's also really good on how.

• 1:23:01Tim Ferriss?

  Ask about the dark.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And I've written a lot about the dark.

• 1:23:04Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds like a great fantasy novel.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  It's like anybody who wants to know that, that's your first husband. Anyway.

• 1:23:10Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I'm gonna have to leave that alone. I'm gonna resist the temptation.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Next time on the show.

• 1:23:15Tim Ferriss?

  Just for a second.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  But so this is important because self-transcendence is something that tends to happen a little bit later, but it's not incompatible with lower order needs.

• 1:23:24Tim Ferriss?

  Do you mind if I just?

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Please.

• 1:23:25Tim Ferriss?

  For a second?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Because I think this is the point you're driving at, right?

• 1:23:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let me ride the ketones and caffeine for a moment here. All right. So the awe, self-transcendence wonder, it seems perhaps abstracted, might seem hand-wavy for people who have already achieved success. I don't think that's true at all. And in fact, the happiest people, happy isn't exactly the right word, but the people who seem most at peace, calmest with regular joy in their lives, good relationships, all have regular doses of self-transcendence, whether they are wilderness guides who do not make very much money, but they're spending a lot of time in nature, a lot of time with their loved ones, a lot of time in expansive landscapes.

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:12Tim Ferriss?

  Whether those are musicians and poets who have figured out how to kind of ride the lightning without suffering too much from the low lows. There are regular ways to do this, and I cannot recommend strongly enough some form of meditative practice, whether that is prayer with, you know, your rosary. Right? Our friend travels with the rosary and also with blood flow restriction cuffs, but that's a story for another time.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  I'm not doing blood flow restriction with a rosary.

• 1:24:47Tim Ferriss?

  No, exactly. Right. I mean, you could. I guess that could be interesting. Maybe that's the next niche on your Instagram feed. But the reason that I bring up meditation is because I think one of the easiest paths to self-transcendence and to significance in your life is training your awareness so that the mundane becomes miraculous. And when you start to recognize how fucking unbelievably insane it is that we are even conscious to begin with having this experience, and you start to notice how incredible the little things are, which require you to not be distracted, requires you to breathe and

• 1:25:31Tim Ferriss?

  pay attention. It's not that complicated. It can be challenging. Then you start to perceive almost everything as significant without focusing on establishing your own significance.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:25:46Tim Ferriss?

  And I have just found that to be such an unburdening when you realize that you can do things and should do things that help you feel like you are contributing, that help you feel like you're having an impact on something other than yourself, whether it's someone or something, but that in fact, self-help, self-development can really be a sort of exercise in self-obsession.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:26:14Tim Ferriss?

  And therein lies the seeds of misery.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's me, me, me, me, me. And your point about paying attention to what would ordinarily be thought was mundane. My father, who is a lifelong Christian, he always said, you know, people talk about the miracle of walking on water. You know what the real miracle is? Water. Yeah. And another point, based on what you've just said, which is really important, is self-transcendence is really great, being more in the I self, but you also need to do the work to be less in the me self. And that means getting rid of the mirrors in your life. We have way too many mirrors. I had a guy who worked on my back. He was a guy who worked on Tom Brady's back in Boston. So he's the best guy. He was phenomenal. And I asked him, you know, what did you do before you were this incredible acupuncturist and you're a great physical therapist?

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  And he said, I used to be a fitness influencer. I'm like, dude, tell me more. Like, what's this life all about? And as a social scientist, I'm really interested. And he would take off his shirt and, you know, be on social media and show his abs and then, you know, sell supplements or something. And, and I said, how was it? He says, awful. I didn't eat what I wanted for 10 years. I was so lonely. It was so awful. And I was so ill. And I said, so how'd you get out of it? How'd you cure yourself? And he said, you know, I said, I had enough. Got rid of my social media. I took every mirror out of my house, all of them, bathroom, everyone. And then I showered in the dark for a year. So I couldn't see my abs.

• 1:27:42Tim Ferriss?

  It was like, oh, the cross we bear.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  No, but that's like the most Tim Ferriss thing ever, is that, you know, the, the, the I self protocol or the, and he said he was cured. So not just serving other people more, worshiping more, whatever it happens to be, but also militating against the me self. And that's not just physical mirrors. It's the notifications on your social media. There's lots and lots of metaphorical mirrors that are making you miserable all the time.

• 1:28:07Tim Ferriss?

  What are other ways of facilitating self-transcendence? And I, for instance, I've interviewed BJ Miller as a hospice care physician. I interviewed him a long time ago. And he talked about, for instance, at the end of life, some of the most meaningful experiences were not these deep conversations about the meaning of it all necessarily, but like baking cookies together.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:34Tim Ferriss?

  He talked about introducing people who are

• 1:28:38Tim Ferriss?

  Weeks or months from dying to art.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Right, because he wants to induce a flow state.

• 1:28:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  That's what we're talking about. You, one of the great things about, you know, transcendence is, you know, Michai Chiksend-Michai, who wrote the great book Flow.

• 1:28:50Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that's how you pronounce his damn name.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Chiksend-Michai, yeah.

• 1:28:53Tim Ferriss?

  A lot of consonants.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  It's tough, man. That's a tough name. He talked about the fact that you have a transcendent experience when you're in a state that is the state of self-forgetting. That's what flow is. It's intensely pleasurable for any of us at any particular time. We established the first way is worship or meditation. The second is service to others, but the third is really total absorption. It's total absorption, the kind of thing that you do, which by the way, is one of the reasons not to wear headphones when you're working out. One of the reasons to be fully there when you're working out, to establish a mind-muscle connection when you're working out. It might sound trite, but it really is because you should be able to attain something of a flow state when you're working out. Otherwise, it's an hour of misery that you're going to want to distract yourself from. So you've got like better calves.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  It's just so dumb, which is the ultimate me-self kind of experience. So that's really the third way to do it, is find your thing is what it comes down to. And by the way, my protocols lead up to four hours of writing. That four hours goes by in minutes because it's a flow state and I'm having a transcendent experience. I'm in an I-self transcendent experience. It's not me. It's like some other guy's writing this thing. I don't know what's going on. Clickety, clickety, clickety, click. And before I know it, my wife says, "You want lunch?"

• 1:30:09Tim Ferriss?

  Nature seems like another option.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:11Tim Ferriss?

  It's so simple. Just walk barefoot outside for a few minutes. Look, if it's two feet of snow, it might be harder, but to the extent that you can, like try to get your feet on the ground. Beauty, I mean, beauty, what an interesting, bizarre thing in and of itself. I actually wanted to look semi-professional as I try to on occasion, and instead of holding loose paper, I was going to bring a clipboard. Couldn't find a clipboard, so I was like, "Well, I'm going to bring a book."

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:30:40Tim Ferriss?

  And I thought, I don't know if you've ever seen this particular artist, but I wanted to pass it to you. Have you ever seen Andy Goldsworthy?

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  I've heard of this, yeah.

• 1:30:48Tim Ferriss?

  All right, so this is-

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Using pure nature.

• 1:30:51Tim Ferriss?

  This is Andy Goldsworthy, a collaboration with nature. Everybody should get this book, but just check out some of the images in there.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  This is the idea of- Beauty of working with nature as opposed to against it.

• 1:31:05Tim Ferriss?

  It's using natural found objects, whether trees, leaves, ice crystals, a circle of dandelions. It is the most mind boggling. If James Terrell were to only work with organic materials outside of a hobbit house, what would they look like? They're just absolutely entrancing.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Tim Ferriss?

  Would be the word I would use. And so this is the book I want to use as my clipboard.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  I like it. And this is of course transcendent. This is the essence of using human ingenuity in a flight of fancy. You know, this is pure harmony between who we are and what we're meant to be. I love it. And, and you know, this is harder and harder to do in an environment in which we're living in the simulation. This is life out of the simulation effectively. This is who I am, but outside of the matrix, which is why it's so striking and strange.

• 1:32:10Tim Ferriss?

  So tell me more.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  So the transcendent experiences, the one thing, the one place that they don't happen is in a simulated experience of human life. Fundamentally transcendent experiences require being fully alive. There's a, you know, the great fourth century sage and saint, Saint Irenaeus, who's one of these guys where, I mean, today it's like, it's pretty costless to be religious like me. In those days, I got, you might get your head cut off. And so you're, he was doing a lot of deep thinking and he said, the glory of God is a man fully alive. It wasn't a gendered comment. A person fully alive is the glory of God. So then the real question is, what does it mean for me to be fully alive? And I ask my students, are you fully alive? When you get up and the first thing you do is you pick up your phone, which is by the side of your bed

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  and check in with the universe that's being mediated through the small screen. And then you do your work on the Zoom. And then your friends are on social media and your dating is on the app and your progress is made through your score on your gaming and your relationships are stripped of their humanity because you're looking at pornography. Are you or are you not fully alive? And if the answer is you're not fully alive, the reason for that is because you're living a simulated life. And a simulated life just, Tim, isn't beautiful. And a simulated life means your cosplaying life. That's right. And this is one of the things that I found in my interviews for this book as well. I kept hearing meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  But you're talking to a lot of 27 and 28 year olds and their affect is very flat because they're telling you the same story over and over again. And this is where the penny dropped. This guy says, 27 year old guy, he said, "I really do feel like I'm not living a real life. I really feel like I'm living in a simulation every day and I don't know how to break out because my job is fully remote because I can't meet women on the corner and say..." Like Bill Ackman said on social media the other day, he said, "When should I come to women and say, 'I would like to meet you'?" What does that mean? And watch them run in terror, right? Because my friends really are virtual friends.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  Because my sense of achievement really is what I can actually do with this gaming experience or whatever it happens to be that I've gotten really good at. How am I supposed to do that? I don't know how to break out of this, but I know it's not right. Here's the funny thing. You can kind of be fooled. The Turing test can be passed with respect to the kind of experience you think you're having, but then there's a deep knowing. You can't simulate the meaning of your life. You can only live the meaning of your life. A simulation is a complicated simulacrum for the complex experiences of human life. And that's a non-trivial use of language. This is pops over dinner, right? Exactly. A complicated problem is that which is very, very hard to solve, but once you solve it,

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  it's static and you can do it again and again and again. It's an engineering problem. It's a how and what problem. Complex problems are super easy to understand and impossible to solve. And I'll give you an example. Making a jet engine is a complicated problem. We didn't do it for a long time. Making a toaster is a complicated problem. I mean, I defy you to build your own toaster with the stuff in your... You'll burn your house down if you try to make your own toaster. It's a complicated problem, right? My marriage is a complex problem. I understand what it means to love and be loved. I can't put it into words. I'm not Pablo Neruda, but I understand what it means to love and be loved, right? But I will never solve my marriage. Tim, I mean, this morning, before we started, Esther texted me, "I love you." And she does.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  And when we finish, I'm gonna turn my phone back on again. She might be pissed off at me. I don't know. I don't know. And a part of this is because she's Spanish. You know, that adds a layer of complexity in and of itself. But that's the point of my marriage. The things I care about in life are complex. They're not solvable. They're only livable. And so if I take a complicated simulacrum of anything, I'm doing it wrong because I'm not gonna be satisfied and my brain's gonna know.

• 1:36:12Tim Ferriss?

  How much of the malaise associated with the feeling of being in a simulacrum is resolved just by having more in-person, human interactions? Because the older I get, and maybe this is just the path of people as they age, I don't know. But I have one foot in the cutting-edge, bleeding-edge technology. I'm fascinated by the latest advancements in you name it, doesn't matter. But I am very involved.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Biologics, all of it.

• 1:36:47Tim Ferriss?

  Like, the last 24 hours, I've had conversations with three or four scientists, all at the cutting-edge of different fields. I love it. Simultaneously, I feel like we should pay attention, and this is, I guess, I'm not borrowing, but certainly I'm in lockstep with, like, Nassim Taleb on this, which is paying attention to things that have persisted for very, very long periods of time. And also paying attention to evolutionary biology. It's like, we are evolved to be very social creatures, moving through physical space together.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:18Tim Ferriss?

  Full stop. And if you take that away.

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  If you take one or the other away.

• 1:37:23Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  You're in trouble.

• 1:37:24Tim Ferriss?

  You're in big trouble. And you don't have to understand all the myriad mechanisms by which this and that happens. And 15 different hormones interact to produce some type of subjective experience. It's like, if we have evolved with these things as constants over millennia upon millennia, maybe it's a good idea.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:47Tim Ferriss?

  To keep them as regular ingredients in your daily experience.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  We know why. We know why the need exists. We know exactly. Neuroscientists know exactly what you're talking about. And this is the theory of hemispheric lateralization. Again, very simple idea with complicated words for tenure. This is the theory that's being most popularized right now, but probably the most visionary, cutting-edge neuroscientist living today was Ian McGilchrist at Oxford. He wrote The Master and His Emissary back in 2010. And The Master and His Emissary talks about the fact that the two hemispheres of the brain do many things the same, but fundamentally they get at your two needs, which is to figure stuff out, to dominate world's problems, to make progress, and to feel fully alive

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  by being a beloved person. Why? We have two hemispheres of the brain that do those complicated things. That's the left hemisphere. How and what? And the complex things, which is the why questions, that's the right hemisphere of the brain. All of the mystery, the meaning, the love, the happiness, is processed in the right hemisphere of the brain. And how you go out and do stuff is in the left hemisphere. The problem is modern life. This gets into the meaning crisis, has pushed us all into the left hemisphere of our brain and slammed shut the door to the right. Everything that we're doing, from workaholism to hustle culture, to making sure that people

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  don't study humanities, they only study STEM, and most especially to the simulacrum, the technologized simulacrum for ordinary life, that's all left hemisphere. And if you're in the left hemisphere, you're going to know how and what, and how and what, and how and what, and you're going to be bereft of why, including the big why questions, which make up the meaning of your life. And so the solution, where is meaning to be found? It's the right hemisphere of your brain. How do you open it up? That's the meaning protocols. And it really comes down to these very simple ideas that we've already been exploring. And it comes down to this, there's something that I promise you that great grandfather Ferris

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  never said to your great grandmother, which was, honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today. And the reason is because it wasn't a thing. And the reason is his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. His life was pretty boring and it was boring from day to day, objectively boring, but he never said my childhood was boring. His right hemisphere was exercised as well as his left hemisphere. And the result is he didn't have flooding of the HPA axis. He wasn't morbidly depressed for no apparent reason. He didn't live in a world of affluence and yet feel like he was experiencing nothing. And the reason is his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. This was not a policy problem. This was a neurophysiological problem that he didn't have and that we have actually

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  today. And so the result is we have to live in an extraordinary way that was ordinary 100 years ago. The simulation we really need is the old fashioned life is what comes about because almost all of the things that I talk about in my research that people can experience if they actually put some work into it is to open up the right hemisphere of the brain and do what was absolutely ordinary, not that long ago, three generations ago, as a matter of fact.

• 1:41:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, complicated versus complex. I like the distinction and, and also having just come back, brief aside, every year I do this past year review, I'm going to be doing that in the next few weeks.

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:41:17Tim Ferriss?

  Look at my top relationships, top defined as dear, close relationships that are reliably nourishing for everybody involved and energizing. And then I book time in the next year, more time with all those people. So I establish these relationships and then I book more time with them in the subsequent year. And often with extended trips, I just came back from a trip with a number of my very close friends. And I look at some of the basics and I think it's replicable where.

• 1:41:53Tim Ferriss?

  Three days into it, granted, these are my close friends, but I challenge anyone, if you put in 20,000 steps a day and you compliment, let's just say, two of your close friends and three strangers, and tell me by the end of the week that you don't feel better, just, there's simplicity.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  And check your phone only 10 times.

• 1:42:11Tim Ferriss?

  Right, yeah, exactly, right on the other side. And if you do those things, by the way, you will probably be checking your phone a lot less, hopefully. I want to touch on something because I know we, as expected, are gonna run out of time before we run out of topics to talk about, but I'll let you pick where you want to go first. So there's a line here that I have, or it's more phrasing, that I want to hear you expand on, "Your suffering is sacred." And then there is a line here, which is, "Treat your life like a pilgrimage that opens your mind and heart so life's meaning can find you."

• 1:42:48Tim Ferriss?

  So those are both interesting to me, right? "Your suffering is sacred," and "so that life's meaning can find you," because most people think of themselves as going out to find meaning, if they think about it at all. So, dealer's choice.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. We'll start with suffering, because suffering is the most misunderstood thing in most of modern life. We have an eliminationist strategy toward especially mental suffering. We see, you know, big increases in depression and anxiety, and if you go to campus counseling at any university and you're gonna say, "I'm feel sad and anxious," they say, "Well, you gotta fix that." Well, probably, you know, you'd have some therapy, there might be some psychiatric medications involved, and I had nothing against therapy or psychiatric medications, it saved the lives of people in my family. But the truth of the matter is that suffering, per se, is life itself. I mean, that's the first noble truth of Buddhism, dukkha. But it also suggests that you have a working limbic system, which is your alarm system for threats in the environment, negative emotion exists as a threat system, as a threat alarm

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  system, and negative experiences is the only way that you learn. There's a reason that great philosophers always say, "The suffering is your teacher," because suffering is the ultimate complex right hemisphere experience that teaches you about the meaning of your life. And if you try to eliminate your suffering, you will inadvertently eliminate meaning. That's what will happen. The worst mistake that people can make is trying not to suffer. I self-tell my students, these are MBA students at Harvard, I say, You're studying at Harvard University, getting your MBAs. If you're not sad and anxious, you need therapy. Something's wrong with you if you're actually not suffering. So the real question is, how can you learn and grow from it? The math that Buddhists have about suffering is as following.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance. Pain times resistance. And it's really important because what we know about that is that people are trying to lower their suffering by lowering their level of pain. And what they should be doing is actually understanding and putting into proper context and proportion their suffering by lowering their level of resistance.

• 1:44:51Tim Ferriss?

  Resistance, yeah.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  That's what it comes down to, and every good athlete understands that.

• 1:44:55Tim Ferriss?

  And by the way, just very quickly, the meditation that I was describing and recommending is effectively that.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:02Tim Ferriss?

  It's lowering your resistance to everything that you would be inclined to resist.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  And you know, my students have a little mantra they start at the beginning of the day and say, "I am truly grateful for the pleasant things that are going to happen this day." You know, in the Psalms, "This is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. And I'm also truly grateful for the troubles I'm going to face because my learning and growth will come from these troubles. Bring them on." And that's this like bracing, and I say this every day when I, because I'm gonna suffer today. And Tim, you're gonna suffer today. And if you try to eliminate that suffering, all you're trying to do is lower your pain level to ephemerally and artificially and ineffectually lower your suffering.

• 1:45:42Tim Ferriss?

  And that Psalm might as well have been also put right next to Marcus Aurelius' meditations.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, Christian thinking is heavily influenced by the Stoics. They were contemporaneous. This is why they sound so familiar to each other. And the whole idea is like, you got a choice. You can learn and grow from your suffering, or you can try to avoid your suffering and have the same amount of suffering and not learn and grow. What do you choose? And that's what it comes down to. So that's the most, the most difficult lesson, but the most bracing and empowering lesson about how to find meaning in your life is to lean into your suffering and you will find your meaning. And that's what Grandpa Ferris had to do because he had no choice. He had no therapist. He didn't even have Advil.

• 1:46:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  And so that's what I'm talking about. Then the second point that you made, the second question you asked is, okay, when you're on this, when you're in search to get presents, you're in search, search, search, search. There's a mistake that people commonly make was thinking if I search enough, I'm gonna find. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you. But the process is a little bit counterintuitive and different. Every religious tradition has a protocol for finding truth. And that is to make a pilgrimage in which point it is revealed that your truth finds you. Now, there's a lot of ways that that's described in the Bhagavad Gita, where, you know, trying to going to the birthplace of the Lord Krishna in Mathura, in the Hindi heartland.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  In Christianity, for the Camino de Santiago, which I've walked twice, across the ancient route of 1,100 years old, doing the Hajj, if you're Muslim. What you find is that when you, when you make a pilgrimage, that's a metaphor for your life. And the end of the pilgrimage is the metaphor of the ultimate goal of life, which in, you know, Abrahamic religions is heaven. And it's the end of samsara in the karmic religions, or whatever it happens to be, is they're reuniting in the God, with the Godhead in the Hindu body of religions. What's most important is, is actually what's happening to you in the process of this pilgrimage. And what actually happens to you neurobiologically is that you beat yourself to the point that you have an open aperture.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  So that you're no longer in a defensive crouch, such that you're, you weaken yourself on purpose. This is why you walk 25 kilometers a day and you're walking on blisters and you're actually inducing this amount of pain. And I remember this, the first time I walked my Camino, I was in a liminal space in my career. I just stepped down as the CEO of this big think tank and I, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I mean, I was 55 years old and I was spent, dude. I was out of gas. I was burnt out. I'd been working 80 hours a week. I missed a lot of my kids growing up. I'd made mistakes. They stuck with me by the grace of God. And I was walking the Camino day after day after day. I was praying. I was tired and I was in pain. And when I entered into Santiago de la Compostela, this medieval city in northern Spain, and I saw the cathedral,

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  I realized my mission was to spend the rest of my life lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love, using science and ideas to be a scientist in the public interest, but for love and happiness. And I didn't find that.

• 1:48:57Tim Ferriss?

  It found me. Question, how did that appear? Was it drop by drop? Was it a Japanese breakfast on a silver platter in your mind? I mean, did it all come at once? Or was it bits and pieces that you slowly were able to weave together?

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  It was bit by bit because it's not this epiphany. It's not like falling off my horse on the road to Damascus and, you know, temporary blindness, which is probably, you know, temporal epilepsy in the case of St. Paul, but it was a realization. It was a realization. It was something that had already existed out there. It felt like it came to me little by little, particularly over the last couple of days of the pilgrimage. It was, um, what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to return to my roots as a scientist and to use that as missionary work for, you know, greater love and happiness, to get into the mission field as a behavioral scientist, going back to the roots of what I've actually learned. Why? What do I want for me and for everybody? I want more love. I want more happiness. I want more meaning. That's what I want for me and for everybody, because that's the sustenance of actually what we need.

• 1:50:00Tim Ferriss?

  Did that want come into high resolution in part because of the nature of that particular pilgrimage, the religious connotations and the prayer along the way? Or do you think that that was already just a little beneath the surface and waiting to come out and it would have come out in a different environment?

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  That's a good question. It's an empirical question, but I will say that all of the components of the pilgrimage, not to be metaphysical about it, not to be mystical about it at all, all the components of a pilgrimage, which is the physical difficulty, the strain that actually comes from it, the intense effort that you're making while away from these technological distractions, the work that I'm doing on my relationship with God and my wife, with whom I'm holding her hand and praying the rosary.

• 1:50:48Tim Ferriss?

  You did the pilgrimage with your wife?

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I would have done 33 days, except she's like, no.

• 1:50:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  So we did the last eight, right? And all of these things turn out to be the ways that you open the vault of the right hemisphere of your brain, where the mysticism is actually found, the mystical side of your brain, which I believe God creates for a reason, but it might just be nature and it might just be a coincidence. But the bottom line is you must open that door and all the things you do in a pilgrimage, open that door.

• 1:51:16Tim Ferriss?

  And also, if it is nature, it serves some very...

• 1:51:21Tim Ferriss?

  Important, at least from an evolutionary perspective, function.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:26Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, when we look back at just like the history of science, let's take a slight digression at all the many things that we thought were junk DNA, all the many things that we thought were vestigial, all the many things that we thought were just leftover and nature forgot to get rid of it.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  Male nipples.

• 1:51:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yep, male nipples, I still don't have a great explanation or a great use for. I mean, maybe I'm sure I'll get some suggestions on X.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Let's watch the comments, Tim.

• 1:51:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the comments, I'm sure we'll have plenty of suggestions, but I mean, it's half your brain, right? So this, along with the, you know, everyone needs whatever, eight glasses of water a day and can only have 30 grams of protein at a given sit in. The, we only use 10% of our brain, not true, like we use all of it.

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  True, absolutely. I mean, that was a thing when I was a kid in the seventies. You only tend, oh, if you can get access to the other 90%, and then a science fiction story will have you, the person who knows how to use the other 90% that can fly or something, right?

• 1:52:25Tim Ferriss?

  So gaining, really embracing and fully utilizing that right hemisphere kind of characterized the capacities that you're mentioning are, I have just found it to be such an incredible unlock for me in so many ways. And just to deepen the somatosensory and psychological texture of life, I really need that right side and at least as you're describing it.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  I've seen this in your work, by the way. So I've been very aware and familiar with your work for a long time. And the typical algorithm for people who are seekers is to start on the left side and then they find their way to the right. You become more spiritual, more mystical, more cosmic in your outlook as you've gotten older. You wouldn't write the four hour body the same way today. I'm sure you wouldn't.

• 1:53:19Tim Ferriss?

  No, I stand by all the tactical stuff.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  I love it. I love, I read that book. I've just really enjoyed it. I mean, I learned a lot from it, but it's a very left brain approach.

• 1:53:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  And you realize in your own life, as people generally do, that you needed the right hemisphere as well. And so that's why you talk about, it's like, why is Tim getting all mystical again? No, no, no. He's actually moving hemispherically into the full brain.

• 1:53:43Tim Ferriss?

  Also, it's like the how to the technician's side, the engineering problem of, let's just call it self-improvement, whether that's physical, cognitive, psycho-emotional, what is that in service of? For most people, if they ask why a few times, they're trying to improve their quality of life and the quality of the lives around them they care most for. To do that, you need to do things like distinguish between the me self and the I self. Anthony DeMello has a lot of really good writing on this as well. You need to lower resistance, which you could think of as also paying very close attention

• 1:54:23Tim Ferriss?

  to the serenity prayer, or stoicism, or fill in the blank. And there's something to be said, I think, when I also have conversations with some of the most, as far as I can tell, at peace, reconciled, but yet still productive in the world people, whether that's Henry Schumman, who I mentioned, or the Jack Kornfields, or CEOs who also pay attention to these things. They are all reading and learning from people, whether it's the Christian mystics, whether it's Rumi, so Sufi mysticism. You go down the line, it's all the same thing.

• 1:55:05Tim Ferriss?

  Zen Buddhism, when I check my Wi-Fi connection, I always go to dailyzen.com and occasionally you find something that's pretty interesting. They're all talking about the same stuff. Maybe we should take a gander.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  To put a point on what you just said, the meaning of life comes from the right hemisphere of your brain, and you can't get to the right by going further and further left.

• 1:55:24Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  That's probably a political point, too. I'm not sure, but this is a problem that a lot of people have. They want more and more and more. I mean, I've got protocols. I got protocols up the wazoo, man. But protocols aren't it. What they can do is they can facilitate. It's the same thing. People ask me all the time, how is AI going to interact with happiness? The answer is that AI is an adjunct to the left hemisphere of your brain. The way that it can bring you happiness is that if you do left brain things with it, thus freeing up a whole bunch of time that you then use to deepen your relationships in real life with real people. That's an algorithm right there, man. The way that you won't get it is if you try to use it as an adjunct to the right hemisphere of your brain by making it your lover, friend, or therapist.

• 1:56:09Tim Ferriss?

  Or if you use it to do certain things more quickly so that you can simply consume the quote unquote free time you've created with more left dominant.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  By frittering away your time on Instagram.

• 1:56:24Tim Ferriss?

  Which is what I predict most people will do.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 1:56:26Tim Ferriss?

  So the idea of this.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  So my morning.

• 1:56:29Tim Ferriss?

  The era of leisure time.

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:56:31Tim Ferriss?

  Is on its face pretty ridiculous because that's been predicted with every advance in technology.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Exactly. And we started off by talking about the technology that I use, which is my morning protocol. The morning protocol per se is not the secret to happiness. It instantiates, it enables. It's what it is is an architecture such that I can actually have the freedom to live in the right hemisphere of my brain and find the meaning of my life. That's what all of these protocols are. That's why, you know, blood flow restriction is a left brain protocol. But the reason that you do anything like that is because ultimately what you want is more freedom, in a way, more freedom to spend it in what really matters most in your life, which is more love. It's more love. It's more meaning. It's more significance. It's more coherence. It's more purpose.

• 1:57:18Tim Ferriss?

  I want to end where I promised we would end. And The Meaning of Your Life, this is the new book, Finding Purpose in an Asian Entrepreneurship. I love your writing. I love your thinking. People should absolutely check out the book. I need to ask you briefly about a specific element of your evening routine and wind down. And that is personal evening reading.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:41Tim Ferriss?

  What do you read before you go to bed?

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  Before I go to bed, I read something that's not trying to educate me better, but trying to be generative to me. I want to use, and again, this is very left, right thinking. I want my sleep to be concentrated in the hemisphere of my brain that'll bring me the most meaning. And what you read before you sleep will actually stimulate the part of your brain that you're going to use most while you sleep. It's one of the reasons that if you want to remember something, read about it right before you go to sleep and you'll actually remember it. But you won't learn something you don't know, but you will remember something better. That's the reason that I read the Psalms. Actually, I like to have the Psalms read to me in a feminine Spanish accent.

• 1:58:23Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds great. Sign me up.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  I read love poetry.

• 1:58:27Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any favorite Psalms? And then love poetry, what are we talking?

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  Well, actually, we are talking about Neruda, the greatest love poet ever, the Chilean love poet in Spanish, which is, which pronounced in Spanish from your beloved is like a narcotic.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  And yet won't ruin your life. The Psalm, Psalm 121, any of the Psalms, actually, because they have a different flavor as you work your way through them. The first Psalm is like a tree planted by streams of water who prospers in all that he does. The idea of God's promise and love for you, Tim, and that promise and absorbing that promise of the intense love for you, which is the essence of significance at the metaphysical level. And absorbing that and having it read to you or reading it or having it read to you is so significant. That's a beautiful thing to do and that's a great part of the evening protocol. The evening protocol is, you know, happiness and better sleep, deeper love, generativity in the, you know, the nighttime hours, which by the way, for me are a torment. I'm a terrible sleeper.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  I'm terrible and you can't get the machine off, right?

• 1:59:29Tim Ferriss?

  Machine.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  You can't get the machine, there's no off switch.

• 1:59:31Tim Ferriss?

  Right, the off switch. I've become much, much better at it, much better. But that has for my entire life been the ruminative

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:40Tim Ferriss?

  challenges that I lay down to go to sleep and my mind is like, I've been waiting all day to tell you so many things.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  I know, I know. We have to, we have some, there's some things we need to discuss here.

• 1:59:53Tim Ferriss?

  You're probably wondering why I gathered you here tonight.

• 1:59:57Tim Ferriss?

  The boss has something on his mind.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  When your spouse or your partner is a good sleeper, that can be really problematic because then they'll have a heavy conversation with you and then go. Oh yeah, no, that's no flies. That's for my wife. Yeah, that is for both. Part of the protocol, this is really important for everybody watching us who doesn't sleep alone, is actually the oxytocin protocol, which is, as we all know, the love molecule, the bonding, neuropeptide that functions as a hormone in the brain. Women have three times as much as men. Side note, here's how you fix every marriage. You do four things. Number one, you have more fun together as opposed to rehearsing grievance. More fun, less grievance. Therapy is like grievance, grievance, grievance, and have more fun together. Number two. And how long have you been married? Thirty-four years. Okay.

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  Second is pray together, because you're the fusion, one flesh, there's the fusion of the right hemispheres of your brains. This is the goal. If you get married, Tim, the goal is to fuse your right hemispheres. The best way to do that is by meditating together, is by praying together, is by doing right hemisphere activity together. The third protocol is to make eye contact whenever you talk. Never be talking without making eye contact. Way more important for your wife than it is for you. Way more important, because she gets three times as much oxytocin, which means she's better at bonding, but it also means that she's better at starving, when she's not getting enough oxytocin and eye contact from the beloved, which is, you know, when you have eye contact with a newborn baby,

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  oxytocin is like the Fourth of July inside your head, which is why you wouldn't leave the baby on the bus, because suddenly the baby's kin. It's an evolved phenomenon. And last but not least, is remember A B T, always be touching, always be touching, always be touching. More important for men than for women, as a matter of fact. That's why when you're with your beloved and she hooks her arm into your arm while you're walking down the street, you're like, I'm big and strong. Why? Because that's, that's super important. So the last thing before you go to bed, when you're reading to each other, or when you're talking, go five minutes earlier to bed, five minutes earlier to bed, and stare at each other. And it's hard. It's scary. It's like...

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  The eyes, according to St. Paul, are the windows to the soul. And that's when you know you really feel it. And biologically, the reason is because oxytocin is just like old faithful for her. She will love you more if you have five to 10 minutes of intense eye contact before you go to sleep, while you're holding hands under the covers. And by the way, for anyone who has not tried this. You've done this, right? I have done this. Five to 10 minutes is so long. Yeah, yeah. It's a really long time. Here's an exercise. You can start lower. You can start lower, but here's, here's the most intense exercise you can do. If you want like the break glass plan for fixing your relationship, right? Here's what you do.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  You stand in front of each other, staring at each other in the eyes, silent. And you hold your arms out to the side like in an iron cross, holding hands like this for eight minutes. And so what's going on here? This is for the Shaolin monk therapy school? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's super painful and it's gonna be more painful for you because pretty after about four minutes, you're holding her arms up, right? So there's like five pound weights in each hand. And so you're in intense, excruciating pain while having your soul opened with a crowbar. This is like intense. How did you arrive at this? There's a, you know, I experimented with this and also I read the research, right? And I participated in the research. I've actually done this a number of times.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  There's a number of religious traditions that will do exercises actually that are like this. I did one in Spain last year. It's called El Proyecto Amor Conyugal. And that's the marital love project. It's a very big deal across Spain. It's not in English yet. And so it was in a little retreat center outside Madrid. And we were seeing, cause my wife and I, we do a lot of talks together and you know, we counsel couples that are engaged, et cetera. This is our side hustle, right? Is, you know, helping people fall in love and stay in love. And so we were like, what's this method everybody's so crazy about? We were doing stuff like this and I was like, holy mackerel. I mean, cause they don't know how much neuroscience they're actually doing. There's somebody came up with this and said, I wonder if this works. It's like.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  It's really, really heavy. It's just top notch neuroscience matched up with it's as left and right brain as you can get.

• 2:04:20Tim Ferriss?

  Wow. And also, not yet in English. That sounds like a job for Arthur Brooks and some AI tools.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  And Esther Brooks. She's the spiritual leader in our family.

• 2:04:31Tim Ferriss?

  There you go. Job, job for Esther who wouldn't need the AI. Arthur, always so much fun to spend time together. Thank you for taking the time.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Thank you, Tim. Thank you for what you're bringing into the world. Even when I'm not in person, I'm with you virtually and you enrich my life.

• 2:04:46Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, thanks, man. This is, uh, boy, talk about lucky timing. All the serendipity required to end up with this as a job. Remarkable. And I get to spend time with people like yourself. The Meaning of Your Life, folks, check it out. You can get it everywhere books are sold. And people can find you at arthurbrooks.com on all the socials.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:09Tim Ferriss?

  Presumably. Is there anything else you would like to share? Anything else you'd like to say or request to my audience? Anything at all before we wind to a close?

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  If you don't know what to do today and meaning feels out of reach, turn off your device and go love somebody. And it doesn't really matter how you feel because love is an act. It's a commitment. It's a decision. And you'll lift up yourself and that person and a little bit of the whole world. Happiness is love.

• 2:05:37Tim Ferriss?

  Boom. I think that is the perfect place to end. And folks, we'll link to everything as usual, tim.blog/podcast. Go love somebody, including yourself.

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 2:05:50Tim Ferriss?

  See you next time. Thanks for tuning in.

• 2:05:53Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool. Things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends,

• 2:06:33Tim Ferriss?

  including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field. And then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/Friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

• 2:07:02Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know about you, but with so many options for banking and investing these days, also with accounts scattered all over the place, it's harder than ever to track finances. And that is why I am happy to recommend this episode's sponsor, Monarch, named best budgeting app of 2025 by the Wall Street Journal. Monarch brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface, letting you see your full financial picture at a glance. You can even have widgets that show you your spending and so on, so that you don't have to even open the app on your phone. One person on my team has tried four other budgeting apps and said linking his accounts on Monarch was by far the easiest, cleanest interface, et cetera, et cetera. Another one of my employees said Monarch has made it so much easier for her and her husband

• 2:07:47Tim Ferriss?

  to be on the same page financially and to track spending as a couple. So why not get serious and get simple about getting your financial act together? So you can see everything in one place before year's end and get Monarch. Try it out. Use code TIM at Monarch.com. That's M-O-N-A-R-C-H, Monarch.com for half off of your first year. That's 50% off of your first year at Monarch.com with code TIM. Longtime listeners know that I love weight training. I love it. Lot of bang for the buck. I tend to do less endurance training. I just find it so boring. But there are times when I need some endurance, some gas in the tank. For instance, each year I head from sea level in Austin

• 2:08:31Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:09:16Tim Ferriss?

  out there if you want to look for it. The formula is NSF certified for sport and uses concentrated beetroot powder with clinically studied dietary nitrates to fuel nitric oxide production and power blood flow. It drives your capacity for workout endurance and recovery because better blood flow means better workouts. So check it out. Visit HUMANN.com/Tim. That's H-U-N-A-N-N. HUMANN.com/Tim to get 15% off of your first order of SuperBeet Sport. First-time subscribers also receive a free month's supply of sugar-free HUMANN Tart Cherry Gummies to support recovery and healthy inflammatory response. One more time, HUMANN with two N's, HUMANN.com/Tim.