#444: Hugh Jackman on Best Decisions, Daily Routines, The 85% Rule, Favorite Exercises, Mind Training, and Much More

Brought to you by Magic Spoon http://magicspoon.com/tim, low carb, high protein, and zero sugar cereal. “Everyone takes a shower every day, and we don’t complain about it. We do it out of discipline. There will always be an excuse not to meditate.” — Hugh Jackman Hugh Jackman (@TheHughJackman https://www.instagram.com/TheHughJackman/) is an Academy Award®-nominated, Golden Globe- and Tony Award-winning performer, who has made an impression on audiences of all ages with his multi-hyphenate career persona, as successful onstage in front of live crowds as he is on film. I’ve wanted to have Hugh on the show for nearly a decade, and—even with my sky-high hopes—he absolutely over-delivered. In our conversation, we dig into lessons learned, routines, favorite books, exercises, intuition, meditation, and much, much more. Hugh was very gracious with his time, and this is one of the longest interviews he has ever done. Trust me—Hugh delivers the goods, and we had a blast. Enjoy! *** This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim Cereal! Magic Spoon https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim is a brand-new cereal that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal. Each serving has 11g of protein, 3g of net carbs, 0g of sugar, and only 110 calories. It’s also gluten free, grain free, keto friendly, soy free, and GMO free. And it’s delicious! It comes in your favorite, traditional cereal flavors like Cocoa, Frosted, and Blueberry. Magic Spoon https://magicspoon.com/pages/tim cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. 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• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would be an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

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• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:09Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:51Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:33Tim Ferriss?

  videos with zero lag. The last thing that really sets ExpressVPN apart is how easy it is to use. As I mentioned earlier, unlike other VPNs, you don't have to input or program anything. You just start up the app, click one button, and that's it. Super, super simple. And by the way, it's not just me saying all this about ExpressVPN. You've got TechRadar, The Verge, CNET, and many other publications rating ExpressVPN as the number-one VPN in Zverd. So, consider protecting yourself with the VPN that I use and trust. Use my link, expressvpn.com/tim today and get an extra three months free on a one-year package.

• 3:14Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand-new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of "best inventions of 2019," and Forbes called it "the future of cereal." It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood, remember that? But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, 3 grams of net carbs, 0 grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain-free, keto-friendly, soy-free, and GMO-free. All the things. It's delicious. And I don't say that lightly,

• 4:08Tim Ferriss?

  because most of this healthy version of X-stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nail it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry. Blueberry, you can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magic spoon.com/tim or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes. I'm going to order some more today of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite, but there's a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors, honey nut and peanut butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter and it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors. And fun fact, my friends are also

• 4:51Tim Ferriss?

  obsessed with Magic Spoon. One of the podcast's most popular guests, Dr. Peter Attia routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time. That's a lot with no glycemic response. He's looked at this with a glucometer. He likes it so much, he invested. Other friends, two very fine gentlemen, and also past podcast guests, Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday, also invested. So check it out. See what the buzz is about. Go to magic spoon.com/tim and grab a variety pack or cocoa, which is my favorite, or anything else, but see what strikes your fancy. Why not? Try a variety pack and be sure to use code TIM at checkout. My listeners, that's you. Get free shipping and a 100% happiness guarantee. So if you're not a fan, if you don't love it, they'll give you a full refund, no questions asked. Again, check it out.

• 5:36Tim Ferriss?

  Magic spoon.com/tim. That's magic spoon.com/tim. Take a look. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will

• 6:18Tim Ferriss?

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• 6:43Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This isn't just any other episode. It is a very special and exciting one for me. But let's back up. This show is about deconstructing world-class performers to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on, that you can apply to your own life. And this particular episode, I think, delivers the goods and then some. My guest is Hugh Jackman. I've wanted to have Hugh on the show for a very, very long time. Who is Hugh Jackman? If you have to ask that, I don't know where you've been living under a rock. I'll keep this intro short. Hugh Jackman is an Academy Award nominated, Golden Globe, and Tony Award-winning performer

• 7:26Tim Ferriss?

  who has made an impression on audiences around the world, certainly audiences of all ages, with his multi-hyphenate career persona. He's done everything. He is as successful onstage in front of live crowds as he is on film. He's a beast in the gym. This man does it all. You can find him on Instagram, @TheHughJackman, Twitter, @RealHughJackman, on Facebook, Hugh Jackman. And there is one resource I'll mention here. He talks about converting photographs into puzzles, and the website for that is portraitpuzzles.com. It'll all make sense. He'll tie it all together. And without further ado, please enjoy a wide-ranging, thoroughly enjoyable conversation with

• 8:10Tim Ferriss?

  none other than Hugh Jackman. One quick note on timing for context. This episode was recorded on May 21st, 2020, before the death of George Floyd.

• 8:22Tim Ferriss?

  Hugh, welcome to the show.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Tim, great to be here, man. I'm very excited.

• 8:26Tim Ferriss?

  I am so thrilled that we are able to connect on the podcast. I've wanted to do this for so long.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:34Tim Ferriss?

  And I have so many different questions I've wanted to explore with you. And I thought we would start, this might be a strange place to start, but I'll start there nonetheless, and that is, in the course of doing homework for this conversation, I found an anecdote that you, in the mornings, sometimes read a book with your wife or read to each other. Is that something you still do? And how did that start?

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Every day. Um, I nicked the idea from Patrick Stewart. I was on set with Patrick Stewart. For those who don't know him, he's a great actor who played Professor X in the X-Men series, Star Trek, lots of stuff. And he said to me that when he was about sixty, he realised that he was never going to read all the books that he wanted to read in his life. He did the calculation. And so he decided that no matter what time his call was, let's say he's picked up at five. Whatever time he would have woken up, he wakes up thirty minutes earlier, gets a cup of tea and goes back to bed and he reads.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  And he said, I don't read the paper because it makes me angry. I don't read my emails because it usually makes me anxious. Gets my mind going. He said, uh, what's the other thing he doesn't read? Doesn't do emails. Oh, scripts. He won work. He said that makes him anxious. He said, I read a book. The kind of book that you pick up when you go on vacation. The I've got nothing to do book. And he's been doing that for years. And he said, the reason I do it first thing in the morning is the day just gets away from you and you think, oh, I'll read later in the evening, but you don't. He says on weekends he spends an hour. So for Christmas this year, I gave Deb a couple of books which I got off your podcast from Seth, the Esther Perel Seth Godin one about their five books.

• 10:22Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Which.

• 10:23Tim Ferriss?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  We've now read all of them. Um, and we met Esther and I signed up for Seth Godin's marketing kind of workshop thing that unfortunately got cancelled. Anyway. So we wake up, whatever time we're going to get up, uh, I go down, I make a cup of coffee for me, a cup of tea for Deb. We come back up. I have a cold shower first, another thing I learned from you, from your Four Hour Body book. And I was getting ready for Wolverine, the old cold bath. So I have a cold shower every morning. And then we go back and we read. And we read for at least thirty minutes and then we meditate together. And that way.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  It's become our favorite time of the day as a couple. And we know that no matter what happens in the day, which invariably gets away from you, you've had that quality time together. And so that's just been a godsend. It's been an absolute blessing.

• 11:18Tim Ferriss?

  I love that because if I'm looking at, for instance, my own experience with my girlfriend, who I'm very close to, and we live together, it's so easy to say we're going to find the quality time at dinner, after dinner, at this point in the afternoon, and then the day gets away with you. So you're front-loading it in a way so that it doesn't get lost. And do you read the same book at the same time? Do you read out loud to each other?

• 11:46Speaker 00

  We read out loud to each other. So we split it up. We do half-half and we read out loud to each other. And it's interesting, if you've got something on your mind, you know, often it stirs during the night and it could be, I'm not just talking negative stuff, it could be ideas. I find the evening when your subconscious is probably brewing at its highest level, lots of ideas or anxieties come to the surface. So I find the first thing in the morning, you know, we'll be five minutes into reading, right now we're reading David Brooks, The Second Mountain, that book. And we might just stop and say, hey, I'm worried about this. Could be something about the kids or stuff, or stuff's on my mind. And then we'll just end up talking about that, you know?

• 12:30Speaker 00

  But often just the reading itself sparks things in us, gives us ideas, things to talk about, come together with. But we read the same book out loud to each other.

• 12:41Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm going to come back to the meditation because you mentioned it, but since we're on the topic of books, what books, if any, come to mind? I know you read a lot. Have you gifted the most to other people?

• 12:54Speaker 00

  I learnt this from a great mate of mine, Billy Shaw, who's often known as Saint Billy, runs No Kid Hungry, Share Our Strength, you know that organization?

• 13:03Tim Ferriss?

  I do.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're incredible. And so he came over to my place one day and he gave me two books that I now gift very regularly. One is E.B. White's Here Is New York. And the other one is David Foster Wallace's speech, This is Water, his commencement speech. Um, I've heard you talk about the David Foster Wallace one, so I know you know that. And he said, I said, oh, I haven't read either of these. And he said, man, I learned a long time ago. It's really nice to give books, but it can be a burden to give a big book because people feel like, oh, I'm gonna see, I'm gonna see him in a month. Oh shit, I'm having dinner with him next week and shit, I haven't read the book.

• 13:44Speaker 00

  But like the David Foster Wallace is a fifteen minute book and the EB White book here is New York. Um, the New York had a program post-World War II where they invite the greatest writers in the world to come to New York and just they'd pay them for three months just to write essays about New York. So that was his and it's amazing to read a nineteen forty-nine account of New York and how much of the spirit still resonates now. So that's the little book that to anyone who lives in New York or likes New York, I give. And in terms of fiction, and this completely breaks the rules, Tim, because this is a long book. Um, but I was gifted it actually, uh, uh, by Gary Hart, Senator Gary Hart, who I played in a movie.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  The Overstory by Richard Powers. I'm not sure if you read that, but that's the most transformative bit of fiction I have read in a long time.

• 14:36Tim Ferriss?

  I need to read it. It's been recommended so many times. It's sitting on my Kindle and I started reading it. I remember I read for about a half hour and it said, whatever it said, point zero zero one percent complete. And I went, oh my God, how big is this book?

• 14:50Speaker 00

  It's big and stick with it.

• 14:51Tim Ferriss?

  For those who don't know the book, could you, could you give it a, just a quick description?

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, uh, Richard Powers, I believe it won the Pulitzer. I think it did. Um, it, it's a piece of fiction interweaving about eight storylines of humans. But what you realize that the, the misdirection of the book is by the end, you realize the book is completely about trees. So we might relegate trees or nature to some five or 10% of our awareness. And this book, what it does is draws you in in these incredible human stories and these very varied characters and they're. Bearing degrees of interaction with nature and various different forms.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  But by the end, you realize the book, actually, the main character in the book is trees, is nature. And it completely reverses the way you look at the world when you walk outside. Now, I promise you, after you read that book, Tim, you will sit in your backyard and you'll notice things you have never noticed before.

• 15:57Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I'm in. All right. My, my, my complacency has been called. I will read the overview.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Stick with it. Stick with it. It, it, it, it works on you in the way nature does. It's patient. And it's in no rush. It's, it's, it's slow and it's steady and it's true.

• 16:19Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I think the, the, the word true maybe is a segue to meditation. I know you've meditated for decades now. And you and Deb meditate in the mornings. And I, I say that as a segue because at least for me, meditation has been a tool of, that provides, helps to provide clarity in, in some respects. Could you describe your meditation practice and what you feel are the main benefits that are derived from that practice?

• 16:50Speaker 00

  Sure. I was introduced to meditation when I was at drama school. Um, and I, and it was a form of transcendental meditation. Um, there's lots of different types of, of meditation. Just very briefly, it involves the use of a mantra which you are given, which you repeatedly sound. And the very basic concept is that we, the nature of our minds is to always be working, always be thinking. And the trick to life is not letting that mind be your master, but to let her be a servant. Then it's an incredible thing. Once it become, once it's running the show, you know, it's very easy to get off track. So

• 17:31Speaker 00

  during this period of meditation, you are given a mantra, which was described to me as,

• 17:38Speaker 00

  The mind is often called the monkey mind in eastern philosophies. So monkey, you know, is very energetic and if not given something to do will be mischievous. So the mantra is like basically saying to the monkey mind, I need you to climb to the top of that telegraph pole. And when you get to the top, I need you to climb back down. And when you get to the bottom, I need you to climb back up. And when you get to the top, I need you to climb back down. So it's just giving this activity. So the mantra or this word that is silently repeated ends up fading away. And the best way I can describe it is the effect that it has on me. I mean, sometimes I fall asleep, by the way, which is totally fine and clearly what my body needed.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  But when you first pour a glass of water, it's cloudy. And then in a period of time, that all settles and you see crystal clear through the glass, through the water. That's what meditation does for me. It's got that feeling where things drop down. I have a feeling of coming home, the feeling of experiencing my true self and not just being caught up in the monkey mind or being reactive to life. And it gives me a finer energy. I don't always get out of meditation like ready to, you know, do a one hour Peloton class. But I always come out with a finer energy. It feels, my intention feels clearer.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  My listening is more purposeful and things feel easier and more connected.

• 19:15Tim Ferriss?

  Do you meditate then twice a day in these, what I guess one might consider the traditional TM format? Do you, if you meditate in the afternoons or later in the day, how do you time that for yourself?

• 19:30Speaker 00

  So I, I always do it twice a day, four years. So I started, yeah, when I was 23, I'm 51 now. So I did it very regularly, twice a day and about.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Three or four years ago, I kind of let go of the duty element there was, and I can be guilty of this, uh, uh, uh, this is good for you, should be doing this, don't fall off that wagon, you know, it's a slippery slope. So I, and once I let go of that too, I, I've just had a kind of experiment with, with myself. I was like, okay, why don't you meditate when you really want to meditate? And that has turned into a practice where it's every morning for sure. And then definitely when I'm working, if I'm on a movie set, or I'm working in theater, there will always be a second one. But sometimes, um, I'll let the afternoon one go. And when I say afternoon, I can't sit down very, I get restless leg syndrome. So after about four or

• 20:30Speaker 00

  five o'clock, it's uncomfortable for me to sit for 20 minutes. So I will do it around lunchtime or just after lunch.

• 20:40Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to, to use this as a path to talking about self-care and maybe to sex up the expression a little bit, the, the building and recharging of your energetic reservoir. And here's why I'm using such fancy wording, but I think it's appropriate. Uh, we have, we have, we have a few mutual friends and one saw you perform on stage, uh, in, uh, I believe it was New York. And what he said to me, this is someone, Peter, who can work easily 12, 14 hours a day if he wants to for seven days a week, non-stop for years at a time. And he

• 21:23Tim Ferriss?

  said that he could not conceive of doing what you do even twice a week. And let alone, uh, the maximum number of times you might do it in a given week. I, I don't know what that number is, you could, you could speak to it. Uh, but could you describe your emotional energy practices and replenishing approach when it comes to, let's just say, stage, stage performances and stage work, because it's, it's really hard for me to even wrap my head around how you have that much energy output repeatedly in a given week.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  You see, I find this hard to believe, man, because I sit here and I hear you and Peter talking about. The hundred mile swim that you did, or some of the crazy stuff. That sounds to me like, wow, I didn't even know the human body could do that. Let alone the amount of training it goes for. That kind of pushing through, that energy that pushes through pain. Or if you see that documentary, Kim swims, when I watch her, I just go, wow, that, that's amazing to me because I know in my heart that I was born to be on the stage. It's taken me a long time to feel the same feeling on a sound stage, or acting.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  One of my favorite movies of all time, and definitely my favorite quote from a movie of all time, is from Chariots of Fire, which I loved as a kid. And Eric Liddell, who's the religious runner, who decides not to run on the Sabbath during the Olympics, you've seen the movie, right? I have. Yeah, so there's this great scene, he's meant to be going off after the Olympics to do missionary work in China, handing out bibles or something. And his sister's talking to him, she's like, you've got to throw away this silly running thing. We have really important work, God's work to do. Why are you doing this and spending time on this? You know, basically kind of accusing you of not following God's will.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  And he just says, he looks at her and he says, but I feel his pleasure when I run. And I've always, somehow that line, it always makes me tear up just saying it. That's what I feel on stage. There's a kind of natural energy, and what I keep saying to my kids actually, don't settle, find that thing that resonates with you in that way. Where you feel some kind of the pleasure of the universe, of consciousness. Like there's some joy where you feel you can do it longer. And in that way, it's not such a Herculean effort. Although, I'm going to tell you in a second, I have a bunch of sort of rituals and things that I do to make sure that I can be my best.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  But there is a natural energy that I understand, other people going, I don't know how you do that. But maybe that's in the same way, I don't know how you train for ultra marathons, for example. So in terms of self-care.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  On Broadway, I have a bunch of rules. Or when I was doing my tour.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  I certainly don't drink alcohol before. And I really limit it after. It's really important for me to wake up feeling in a good frame of mind. Rather than that feeling of catch up, you know, that feeling if you wake up and you go, I just want to go back to bed. Then that's a really difficult place to be in. If you've got to perform that evening because then an anxiety comes in that you're going to be withdrawing on reserves that are not replenishable. I don't go out after any show. And I would love you to come and see, I'm doing the Music Man, come, but I never go out and I make, that's a blanket rule. I don't go out with anybody, partly because

• 25:18Speaker 00

  the party I've just had on stage is better than anything I can imagine anywhere else. The other thing is I think it's really important for me to get quiet. To allow what has happened, the energy of what has happened, because there is a lot of energy. And I think I'm the only actor I know who I can be asleep within forty five minutes after getting off stage. There's something very calming. It's not, it's like you've had your greatest workout. You have a bath, that feeling after the bath, after a great workout in the evening where you just can sit and be at peace with yourself, that I love. So I limit the amount of coffee I have just because you're battling dehydration with stage work all the time.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  I always, I have, I know what my routine is before I go on stage and I'm religious about it. And that's more about quieting my mind.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  I don't ever want my monkey mind saying, oh, you didn't do your warm up today, or you only half did it, or this or that. You haven't stretched, you haven't done that, you didn't really eat very well today, you might be, you know, the mind can, my mind can easily pick up on that. The perfectionist side of me. I always take a minute before I go on stage, literally before, to pause and just connect with the senses. So even if I'm not.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  In the opening of a show, I will stand in the wings. I first of all like to just listen to that titter of excitement as people come in to the theatre because I love the theatre myself and I remember that and it reminds me of how privileged I am and how much I owe every single audience member at every single show. They're not coming in to see my fourth show of the week, they're coming to see the show for the first and probably only time in their life. So, and I, who knows what they've sacrificed to get there. So, I really take that minute and then I fall still and remind myself that this is all in service of something. I say a little,

• 27:23Speaker 00

  I say Om Paramatnaminama, which means I dedicate this show or whatever it is to the service of the absolute. There is something beyond the show, some reason we're doing this. Same for your show, you know, there's got to be a reason beyond just what the immediate thing is there.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  And that just connects me to that. I'm pretty quiet during the day when I do a show and the other thing I really try to do is read and listen to other stuff. I had a great acting teacher, Lyle Jones, who said to me, he goes, "You can't call yourself a real actor unless you expose yourself to ballet and classical music and David Attenborough. Like, you should be so inquisitive and curious and find inspiration from surprising places. Could be a walk in the woods, but that stuff feeds you so that in the act of performing, which is very much giving out, you have enough

• 28:26Speaker 00

  energy there and stores, I suppose." They'd be the main things.

• 28:31Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so pleased we finally made time to get on the podcast. This is just fantastic.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  Me too, man. I was saying before we got on, I'm gonna say it now. I was a little nervous. I was asking myself, I went for a bike ride this morning and it's not, I wasn't nervous like heart pounding, like I'm about to go on a talk show and I've got to perform. Not that kind of nervous, but I think because this is...

• 28:58Speaker 00

  The only thing I can think of, only bit of media really that I actually consume, that I'm now participating in, and I thought to myself, what, why do I consume it? And the reason that I listen in is that I have learned, apart from people in my inner circle, I've learned more from your show in the last two years than anywhere else. Uh, countless examples, Seth Godin, Esther Perel, um, Sam Harris, uh, you know, I do his waking up app quite regularly. So there's so many things that I've learned and I always feel like I'm going to get some wisdom that has, that will help me in life or the people

• 29:42Speaker 00

  I love. And, and I think the nervousness came from a bit of a habitual thought pattern with me is like, oh, well, you're not that good. Like, you don't know that much, man. Like, you know, you're not, you know, you've done all right, but you're not the person that people are going to listen to on Tim Ferriss, you know, again, you know, those doubt, those doubts that clearly have fueled me in my life. And I, I mentioned that, A, to compliment you on what you've created, but B, just to be completely open and honest that, uh, I have those doubts, you know, that I'm, I'm not good enough, which have driven me. And, um, yeah, sorry if I'm going off, off piece here.

• 30:25Tim Ferriss?

  No, I, you're not going off piece. There's no such thing in these conversations and I really appreciate the kind words and it means a lot to me that you listen to the show. And I also want to say that for those people who might wonder what you are like in person, that there's always a risk in meeting your heroes, meeting the people you might be inclined to put on a pedestal. And as far as I'm concerned, you are in person with your friends, with your family, with your fans, everything that someone would hope you to be. So I just want you to, to know that, uh,

• 31:09Tim Ferriss?

  At least for me, you are one of the most reassuring of high-profile celebrities in that sense, because it is easy to kind of fall for a facade. And you've been very inspiring to me in person. And I'll just give a few examples. I'll talk about a pattern that I've observed, which is that you are polite to everyone. I mean, I've seen you shake hands with everyone you meet, whether it's the janitor up to a prime minister, you extend

• 31:49Tim Ferriss?

  the same courtesy to everyone. And I think that's a rarity. So, thank you for being you. And I'd like to ask about, in a sense, how you were shaped. And I'd love to ask about your dad, if that's possible. And I have a specific example that jumps to mind. And this is from a piece some time ago in Good Housekeeping. So I want to give credit where credit is due. But the quote here, and feel free to correct it, this is from you, "I remember at one point being in a fellowship, and everyone used to wear the fish symbol that said you were a Christian. So I asked my father, Dad, why don't you wear that at work? And he said, your religion should be in your actions." He set a great,

• 32:34Tim Ferriss?

  great example. Could you speak to what impact your father or family had on you in terms of lessons learned?

• 32:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that story. That actually came to mind a couple of days ago. My dad, you know, when people talk about their, "Oh, my father always told me this." There weren't many times the dad would come up with a sentence. But there's a few I remember. "You cannot over-invest in education." That's one he would say to us. And he says, "If you're ever in doubt of what to do..."

• 33:13Speaker 00

  Go and learn more, is what he would say. Um, your actions, that one, it was, I, I, I actually now remember it, it was, um, I was very, we grew up very religious. My father was converted by Billy Graham. And my mother and father, I think, went to the Billy Graham Crusade, and my father was not religious at all, and became a born again Christian. My mother did not. That was one of the things, actually, I think, that, you know, brought the end of their marriage. They sort of went down different paths. And my, so, but my dad was not a Bible basher. He did, he rarely talked about it. And I remember saying, Dad, because I was really, about thirteen, fourteen, I was really in school, uh, church groups, fellowship groups, and, and I got one of those stickers that you put on the back

• 33:57Speaker 00

  of the car, and I said, Dad, we should put that, like, we meant to do that. We meant to spread the word and do this. And, and when he said that to me, I was disappointed. I, I thought he was copping out, but only later did I realise that when he said, "People should know you're a Christian through your actions," is so much more powerful. Um, if someone eventually comes up to you and says, you know, "There's something about you, man. I don't know what it is, but I'd love to know where I can get it," you know, then there's an opening. But someone, people have noticed how you act is far stronger than what you say, and we all know that. Um, I often speak a little more about my dad

• 34:37Speaker 00

  in interviews, because my mum left when I was eight. So, uh, I was brought up from that moment on primarily by my dad. And so I got a lot of those lessons as I was growing into a man with him being around. But my mum, I always remember her saying, she says it to this day, "Everyone needs to feel appreciated. It doesn't matter what they do, it doesn't matter who they are, that's a need in everybody." And I sort of have extrapolated that out to being people need to be seen. Um, I've learned a lot of that from Brené Brown, um,

• 35:16Speaker 00

  They need to be seen for who they are and appreciated for what they give. And I've seen my mother in particular and my father do that. And that's something we were all taught. So it has become a natural thing. And it really pleases me. I see that in my kids too now, um, that they've picked up on that. And it's a little, really doesn't take a lot, but it it's that outward facing, understanding where people coming from, walking in their shoes to a certain degree. And no one, to be honest, there's no better example of that in my life than my wife, Deb. She's she's because you could argue that that's the way I was brought up. It's kind of like manners, you know, that's the way I was taught to be.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Um, you know, I couldn't go to someone else's house and to this day, I always offer to clean up, even if I'm going to someone's dinner party, they always say, no. Uh, I always, if there's a bowl of chips on the table, I will offer, I won't pick one up until I've offered them to everyone around me, even if it's not my house, all the stuff that I've learned. But my wife acts purely from instinct, from heart. So she she cannot walk past someone homeless in the street. And, you know, I'll stop quite often, but sometimes I'll go, oh, I'm just too busy. I can't deal with this right now. She will never do that. It it's like an instinct, an impulse, that kind of, that's where I think manners or any way you're brought up somehow

• 36:44Speaker 00

  goes to another level um of truly connecting. That's what I've learned from her. So there there've been three big influences.

• 36:54Tim Ferriss?

  And Deb Deb is, of course, an amazing, amazing woman in her own right. And if if she would like, I can certainly link to some of her works in the show notes as well, because I do think that the the sort of dynamic duo of the two of you is is a very important combination.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Well, mate, you've had dinner with us and I can't tell you how many people invite us for dinner and they'll be saying, listen, if Hugh's busy, that's fine, but.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Because Deb does light up a room.

• 37:27Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to ask about journalism or communications. This is maybe going to seem strange.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  I just remember what it was about my dad.

• 37:35Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, fire away. Let's go there.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Stickler on ethics. If you get an invitation to go, uh, to, I don't know, go across the road to your mate's place for dinner and then an hour later, you get an invitation from the Queen of England to go to the Buckingham Palace, you stick by your first one. He was just a stickler on ethics. You keep your word. Even if it does not benefit you, you always keep your word. That was a big one. My dad was always big on ethics. And the other beautiful one, I remember when my, because his relationship didn't work out and it was a big source of pain for him.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  You know, he shared with me it was a real feeling of failure for him around his marriage. And when things started to take off for me with X-Men, he very rarely offered advice at all about parenting, nothing.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Even when I asked him for advice at one point, at one point, I had an opportunity to be in a TV show. I got cast in a TV show and at the same time, I got spotted a very revered acting school in Australia, the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts. And over the weekend I had to choose, do I go on Neighbours, which Kylie Minogue, Guy Pearce, Margot Robbie, you know, all these people, that was the breeding ground. Or do I go and study for three years? And I asked my dad on the Friday, I said, Dad, I don't know what to do. And I need your help. And I was 22 at the time. And he said, I can't answer that for you. And I was really like, come on, Dad, please. Anyway, by the Sunday, it was clear to me, I wanted,

• 39:20Speaker 00

  you know, obviously his lesson about education had sunk in. And so I went, no, I need to go and study because I want to feel that not only do I belong on a, you know, a TV series set, but I can also audition for the Royal Shakespeare Company in, in England. And so, and I didn't feel I had that before I studied. So I went off and studied. And when I told Dad the decision, he, he, I remember he saw, he goes, oh, thank goodness. I said, you knew? And he goes, of course I knew. I said, couldn't you have just saved me this grief the last two days in Tom? And he goes, man, he says, you're a man. You have to make those decisions on your own. Now, as a father, I have a 20 year old. I don't know if I'd be able to hold my tongue. If I could see it so clearly,

• 40:05Speaker 00

  go right, don't go left, to be able to hold back. Uh, that was another great bit of advice. Um, I've gone off. And what were we talking about before?

• 40:13Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I was going to bring up journalism and communications, but I, I might go, we can, we can go somewhere else. I was, I was, that, that was one topic sort of on the list, but we, uh, we can go in any direction that we like. I'll tie it in, in the sense, it's a, it's a curiosity for me as to how you came to be so well spoken. Uh, there are many performers I've met, many people who are excellent on stage, uh, on camera, who nonetheless, in person or in interview, otherwise are not as facile with words as you are. And I, I noticed in, in doing homework, and I don't know if, if this is,

• 40:57Tim Ferriss?

  if this is a factor, but that you were initially, uh, well, I should say, in, at the University of Technology in Sydney, studying communications in hopes of becoming a journalist. Is that true?

• 41:08Speaker 00

  True. Yeah.

• 41:09Tim Ferriss?

  So I'd, I'd love to hear you speak to why that's the case and, and perhaps just try to paint a picture of how you came to use words in the way that you do.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  Um, thank you, man. I haven't had that compliment before. I'll take it.

• 41:25Tim Ferriss?

  You're, you're welcome. I've interviewed 400 plus people and I can tell you.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Um, my wife says I can be a little too verbose sometimes. She'll be like, all right, got it. Got the point. Wrap it up.

• 41:38Speaker 00

  So I, if I look back, I was always in the debate team, loved debate. Uh, my brother is probably the most successful barrister in Australia. Um, certainly in his field of law, an incredible debater. My other brother, like, so we used to get into it at home and certainly with my eldest brother, who was a Rhodes Scholar, you had to be on your game or he would literally eviscerate you in one line. So I probably learned pests there. Um, kind of reminds me of Jordan saying, I really learned how to play basketball from trying to beat my brother growing up, you know? Um, and then I was in the debate teams and all of that and, uh, we always had family dinner

• 42:20Speaker 00

  every night, Sunday lunch as a family. Uh, there was always conversation. So in a way that was always encouraged. Um, and in my family, I'm certainly, I don't stand out as a speaker, but if I think about it now, it was really something that's always prized. And so I came out of high school with pretty good scores and I was accepted into a degree, a dual degree in economics and law. Interestingly, my father was a, my brother was a lawyer or going into law at that time. My father was an accountant his whole life for Pricewaterhouse. Um, and I was good at maths and, and I really was interested in people and good at speaking. So law and economics. And I went off and I had a gap year. Halfway through the gap

• 43:05Speaker 00

  year, I was like, I actually, what do I think? I don't think that's for me. But I didn't really, I just knew I was very much a people person and interested in that. And this communications course was, was new at the time. And in Australia and I, I went and studied there without really knowing anything about it, to be honest. Um, but I knew media was a big part of it. And gradually as I went along, my love, particularly for radio, um, more than writing, uh, blossomed. And so I did graduate. With a journalism major, that degree, but honestly, the biggest thing that happened

• 43:46Speaker 00

  for me at college was that I did a play in my last semester, which I didn't mean to do. I was doing, I had to fill a minor elective and my friend said, you gotta join the theatre class because it's the easiest thing possible. You turn up for four hours a week, there's no exam, there's no play and you pass. So I was like, great, done. So he decided for the first time in the course's history to do a play and I begged to get out of it and by ballot, I got the lead role. I know there was no auditions. And only when I graduated, as I was graduating, I realised I've just spent ninety percent of my time doing that play and loving it. And I said, there's something wrong here. Like, I'm a, I'm doing investigative

• 44:30Speaker 00

  journalism. Surely I should be really more passionate about that. Maybe something's off. We went actually to the play to another university that was half theatre and half communications. And I remember viscerally walking into the place where we were staying. We were staying at a student house, about eight people in this house. The smell of weed was just suffocating as I walked in. But what I remember was the moment I walked in to that house and I met those people, I had this feeling all over my body that I'd made a mistake, that I should have been here. Oh, I should have been doing this course. I knew then and it was deeply frustrating to me to be three weeks away from graduation

• 45:15Speaker 00

  thinking, oops, I think I turned right and I was meant to turn left. And so, yes, officially I graduated and as a junior was a major, but I never studied it. I went straight to go and study acting after that. So that was my sliding doors moment, I guess. But it has, funnily enough.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  I do get a lot of journalists and I don't consider you a journalist. You describe yourself as a journalist, Tim?

• 45:40Tim Ferriss?

  No, I think that would that would insult any, any actual.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know. I've got a lot more understanding of the world around me from your podcast than almost everything I read. So, no.

• 45:54Tim Ferriss?

  I appreciate that.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Oh, by the way, Ken Burns, you thank you for putting me on to Ken Burns.

• 46:00Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  During this whole quarantine, I watched all Civil War. I watched the whole of Vietnam and my son and I about to get into baseball. That, I mean, how I could go 51 years without really seeing everything Ken Burns has done is a crime. But anyway, thanks for that.

• 46:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, special man.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Oh, and that that podcast you did with him was incredible. Um, so, but anyway, it was, uh, yeah, journalism has come in handy for me because I talk to a lot of journalists and I instinctively have an empathy for them. I think most people in my side of the game fear, not fear them, don't like them. Like distrust them, see them as a battle. And I don't feel that. I know the pressures they're under, how little they're getting paid and that often they're being asked, told to ask questions of me that they don't want to ask, but they're told if you don't come back to the newsroom without a quote

• 47:02Speaker 00

  about whether he's going to have another child or blah, blah, blah, you know, don't come back. So I can see that when I'm listening to them, I just have an empathy and a real appreciation for what they do. Because when faced with the, all right, you graduated, go be a journalist. I was like, I don't think I can cut it. I don't think I can do it. It's a really, really hard job. So it has come in handy.

• 47:26Tim Ferriss?

  At the end of drama school, did you make a contract with yourself about pursuing acting? And could you speak to that, please?

• 47:35Speaker 00

  So I, damn, your research is good. Um, so I had worked, I don't know how many jobs. I graduated drama school at 26. So, gas station attendant, I dressed up in a koala suit for the National Parks and Wildlife Foundation.

• 47:53Tim Ferriss?

  That's a tall koala.

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, totally. And, uh, yes, I've been punching the kidneys by 14 year olds, you know, the whole thing.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  And yes, I told him to fuck off, all of that, you know. Um, restaurants, but the, the thing I learned um, from working in all those jobs, that if you start a business, it could be a pizzeria, it could be a bar, a restaurant, anything. You have to give it seven days a week for five years. And after five years, you may be able to pull back a little bit, you may be able to be in a position where you've built the brand to a certain point. You may have to, you may be able to hire a manager, you may be able to hire staff to make things a little easier. Um, but no one really goes into owning their own business thinking, oh, this is going to be the easy life. They do it because they, there's something they want to create and they don't want to be told what to do and they go out and make it happen.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  And it dawned on me really only in the last semester of drama school that that's what I'm doing. I'm going out there, there's no, no one's employing me in their company to be an actor and then sending me out. I have to go and rehire every time I go for a job. Um, and my brand is my name, so I have to build that up. And so I thought, okay, what have I learned from all these jobs? I've got to give it seven days a week, so I vowed to never wait for the phone to ring. I was going to write letters, I was going to start me and Simon Linden, my fellow mate I graduated with. We're going to start a theater company. Um, which he did, by the way, I ended up getting a job straight out of drama school, got lucky.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  But the Tamarama Rock, uh, Rock Surfers, which is, you know, in Bondi in Australia, still going today after 25 years. But my feeling was you have to drive, you have to work, you cannot be a victim, you cannot wait for the phone to ring. You have to go out and generate and get your brand out there and get going. So I figured five years was the time because I was 26, so five years, I'm like 31. We all hear stories of people staying too long at the party. I mean, if you go to LA, there's just so many people who stay a good 10 years too long at the acting party. You know, and they're like, ah, you know, I met a guy, my gym, and he's introduced me. He's the guy who parks the car around the corner of his place.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  He knows someone who's a friend of the casting agent and he's put in a word and I think I'm going to get a, you know, that story comes out. And this feeling of it's going to happen next week and, um, I figured 31, okay, 31, if it's not happening, be stoic. By the way, thanks for Ryan Holiday and the Stoicists and all that stuff, love. Um, be stoic. Be hopeful, but work your ass off, but know when it's time to leave the party. So after five years at thirty one, I'd done X-Men. It was all sort of happening for me. It didn't happen immediately in terms of what most people think of as success. But certainly after the first five years, I did actually mentally say to myself, all right, another five years and we'll see how it goes.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  I don't like the word career. Particularly when I began and I say to actors, I said, I'd be wary of the word career. I said, it's not a right that you're going to act. Ninety eight percent of actors are unemployed. It's a privilege when you get a job and don't expect there'll always be one around the corner. Work your ass off as though this is the last one and you have to be at your best to get there because that's kind of what it takes. So I'll admit, I don't redo the contract anymore.

• 51:27Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and then we're right back to the show. First up, Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand new cereal that is low carb, high protein and zero sugar. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal, but it's actually good for you. My favorite flavor is cocoa. Each serving has eleven grams of protein, three grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar and only one hundred and ten calories. Try Magic Spoon today by grabbing a variety pack at magicspoon.com/tim. That's magicspoon.com/tim. Second and last, ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN keeps my data secure and encrypted all without slowing down my internet speed. It is so easy, so fast, you don't even notice it's running. So if you're on public wifi anywhere and don't want your data sniffed,

• 52:10Tim Ferriss?

  you don't want creepers looking in on what you're doing, this is what I use. Go to expressvpn.com/tim to get an extra three months free on a one year package. That's expressvpn.com/tim.

• 52:24Tim Ferriss?

  What were some of the best decisions that you made in the first few years of working hard, pounding the pavement as an aspiring slash working actor?

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Well, definitely going to drama school. That was before. That was a huge turning point. I had a big, I just had also this attitude, you've got to say yes to everything when you graduate. Just say yes. Go for everything. When my agent called me and said they're looking for someone to play Gaston in Beauty and the Beast in a musical, I was like, well, I'm a theater actor. I'm not a singer. She said, yeah, I just think you should go for it. And me saying yes to that audition and going getting singing lessons was a huge turning point. I mean, you know, now I've done a bunch of musicals and I've learned a lot over those years, but I did not think I could ever do that. So that was, that was a big one. And doing Beauty and the Beast, and in my contract, I think I must be the only

• 53:23Speaker 00

  actor in history, in my contract, it said, must get a singing lesson once a week, paid for by the company. So I was a professional, on paper, professional musical theater actor, and I had to go and get singing lessons, which I loved, man, because I was singing eight times a week in a show. Getting a singing lesson every week, that's really where I learned how to sing. So that year was amazing for me. But I had a, this was more of a turning point. After, I remember when I was doing Beauty and the Beast, I started that, getting well-known for that. And I remember seeing, uh, something like, they had a list of people, what are they doing for Christmas, kind of thing. And they had Hugh Jackman, comma,

• 54:05Speaker 00

  singer. And it was up at the theater, someone put it up in the theater. And I just remember going, oh, I'm being labeled as a singer. I said, I'm an actor. Like, this is gonna, this is a problem. This is going to affect me. And it did become a problem. Um, I couldn't get an audition for a film, because there was, I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia, a kind of snobbishness about musical theater, that you weren't an actor, you were a performer, stagehand, you know, jazz hands, and that's not acting. So anyone in musical theater can't act. I couldn't get an audition. Drove me crazy. So I made a choice then to get out, basically. I'm gonna get out of um theater, uh musical theater,

• 54:49Speaker 00

  and I'm just gonna concentrate on acting until I've established that, then maybe I can go back to it. And just as I decided that, my agent Raymond said Trevor, Sir Trevor Nunn is coming to do Sunset Boulevard in Melbourne. And I said, I, I said, I really wanna meet Sir Trevor Nunn. He was a huge hero of mine through drama school, uh the Royal Shakespeare Company, everything, I, I like huge. I really wanted to meet him. That's who, that's really who I wanted to work for. Uh but it was a musical and this was another twelve months. And I thought now it's gonna be back to back musicals. I'm gonna be even more entrenched down this path that, you know, it's a one way street. I actually, yeah, and I think back is a pretty arrogant thing. I rang the casting director myself and I said, I need you to do me a favor.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  And I had met her, I knew her. I said, I really wanna meet Trevor and I wanna audition for him, but I don't wanna do the job. She said, what? What do you mean? I said, I really wanna meet him, but I've made this decision. I've gotta go into acting, but can you just do me a favor? I just wanna meet him and I want him to see me act. So I went in. The audition was the most incredible hour I've ever spent. I learned so much, like one hour on an audition. He taught me so much about acting. He heard me sing and then he came and worked with me for forty minutes. And I remember about halfway through that going, okay. If he gives me the part, I'm gonna do it. It doesn't matter to me if it's a musical or not.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  I've gotta work with this guy. I, I feel it in my gut. I've got so much to learn from him. And that was a massive turning point. I got the part. I learnt an incredible amount from him. He then went on to cast me in Oklahoma and London. And really, working with him gave me the confidence to be able to take on the world stage. I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to do that before him. But I suppose the lesson of that or the turning point of that was when you have that gut feeling, go with it. Um and I haven't always done that, by the way. And you can learn, uh actually not long after that. So after I did. Sunset Boulevard, I doubled down on my commitment to not doing musicals, right?

• 57:02Speaker 00

  Or after I go home, I'd now done three musicals and I still couldn't get an audition for a film. And I got an offer to do The Boy from Oz, which I went on to do here on Broadway about 15 years ago. And when I heard the pitch for that show, I had that same feeling in my gut. Oh my God, this is gonna be amazing. You gotta do it. But my head was saying, you've done three musicals, stop. When are you gonna stop? You gotta stop. You made a commitment. So I turned it down. And when I went to see that show two years later, by the way, I still hadn't got a film audition, pretty much. When I went to go and see that show, I was actually sick to my stomach. Because it was everything I knew it was gonna be when they pitched it to me.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  And there I was, making some strategic plan in my head, and it was wrong. And from that moment on, I have always followed my gut on stuff, even if it doesn't make sense.

• 57:59Tim Ferriss?

  I have so many questions about this. I love where we're going. And I was gonna ask you about intuition, but first I have to ask just a brass tacks question, which is, the casting director who did this favor for you, why do you think they did that? Because that seems to me to not be a small ask. Why do you, why, why did they feel compelled to do that? What persuaded them?

• 58:23Speaker 00

  Um, hmm. It's a small industry in Australia. And I'd just come out and I'd got quite a lot of recognition, I think, for that first musical. And I think she was thinking, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, because I think I'll see him again in something. You know what I mean? Um, and I really pitched to her the reason.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  I got into acting was I'd seen those, you know, tapes from the Royal Shakespeare Company, the Barton tapes, and I'd watched so much about Trevor Nunn. And to me, that was my dream, was to one day be the Royal Shakespeare Company and working for Trevor Nunn. Like, that was my dream. So I think I pitched it very passionately. I owned up to the arrogance. I said, I know this is a really unfair thing to do. And I, to this day, don't know if she told him that, or if they knew. Maybe that's why Trevor, as I was telling that story, is that why Trevor spent an hour with me? He was like, I'm gonna convince this guy to do it. I'm not sure. But anyway, yeah, it's a really good question

• 59:33Speaker 00

  as to why. It was, it was a kindness, but I remember her doing it through gritted teeth. I remember her going, mm, all right.

• 59:42Tim Ferriss?

  Right, Guy. Okay. This is a, this is, this is not the easiest ask she's ever received, but nonetheless, it happened. And in a few of the instances you've mentioned, you have, and not all, but you've, you've honed it, it seems, over time. Listen to this gut feeling, this intuition, this, I would say sensitivity that, that you seem to have, even when you've had huge sunk cost, right? So you've invested years into education pointing you in one direction, and then at the 11th hour, you go, hmm, okay, well, I turned right, I should turn left, and you turn left. And then you have these examples that you've given. How

• 1:00:20Tim Ferriss?

  do you relate to intuition or that gut feeling now? Is there a certain way you think about it, or have become more tuned to feeling it? And I'm asking in part because I've spent a lot of my life trapped in my, the front of my brain, hyper analyzing things, and it has often been a disservice because it's overpowered feelings, intuition on deals, partnerships, friends, or foes, that I should have listened to, right? So I'd just be curious to know how you have developed a relationship with listening to that.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  I've never been asked this question. I think this is probably the most vexing, most important, vital thing to work out in your life, certainly in my life. And I think about it a lot. To answer the question, what I do now, I just, I think I need to take you back. I've never really said this before publicly, this particular thing I'm going to say, but as I told you, I was brought up in a very religious household. So a lot of the messages I was getting and instructions for life came through the examples of Jesus and through all these characters and the parables in the Bible.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  And I carry them very close to my heart. I can remember praying nightly for, I don't know how long, to God. I used to, I remember it's just saying, I don't care, God, what it is you want me to do. If you want me to collect trash, I'll collect trash. If you want me to, I do not care. But please make it clear to me what you want me to do. Please make that clear. I had much more fear of being on the wrong path than I had fear of failing at a path, if that makes sense. That whatever that decision was, whatever that moment of clarity becomes,

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  whatever gets you to that feeling of Eric Liddell on Chariots of Fire, I feel his pleasure when I run. For me, that was always, and I carry it today, even though my feelings about religion are different than what they were when I was younger, the essence is the same, that there is some calling, as Joseph Campbell would talk about, follow your bliss. There is some calling that is beyond the conscious brains strategizing of how to be happy and successful or meaningful in life. There's something elemental and instinctual. And honing that, the people I admire the most,

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  really hone that ability in big decisions in their life and in too small, day-to-day decisions. So now...

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  I still, like you, battle with that because I can be dominated by my mind, my brain, pros and cons, think this through. And I have been working with a life coach, Lauren Zander, now for four years. And this is one of the biggest things we focus on, really understanding what it is you're here for, what it is you want to do, having those priorities very clearly set out so that those turning points in your life become clear. And just to add to that, when you get married, or when you make a

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  commitment, a lifelong commitment to someone, and you have kids, then the first question Deb and I will always ask, is this good or bad for our family? So if it's bad, we won't do it. If it's good, we will. You know, so that's a very simple thing, but that's my number one priority. And I just remembered the thing about my dad, when I, I don't think I said it, when I got famous, and things were going really well for me, he turned me aside, he said, "Don't forget to always check that everything's okay with Deb at every point." And I was like, "Oh, okay, that's great advice." So anyway, I got off peace. But that, the decision making, I still ask for that every day. You know, I do a,

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  and I should have mentioned this upfront, in terms of that first question you asked me, in terms of performing and the things you do, you know, daily, I do a daily design. Every day, I create as if in the past tense of what the day had been. Dreams can be crazy, it can be wild. And then at the end of the day, I, I score it out of 10. I keep myself accountable to what I was trying to manifest or make happen. And one thing, a consistent theme in that is that I listen to the messages, that they come in crazy ways, they come in strange, but...

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Clear, concise ways. Okay, so I've just come full circle. Let me give you an example. I'm gonna go back again. I, in terms of knowing to get into acting, right, following those examples, I went and studied. Sorry, auditioned for an acting school. And I got in. I got in on the reserve list, so I didn't get on the first time around. This was a one-year course I did before my three-year one. I just snuck in. And I was so excited. After graduating as a journalist, I, okay, I'm gonna go to acting school for one year. And then I got a letter in the mail a week later saying, congratulations, you're in. Uh, please make sure you come, uh, with the three and a half thousand dollars tuition fee.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  And it had never dawned on me that it was gonna cost anything, because when I was young in Australia, secondary education was free, like all university was free. So I was like, uh-oh. And I thought I've gotta go and ask my dad, and I've just graduated from college, and I thought, I can't do that. I literally ripped up the letter, screwed it up, put it in the bin. And I'm not joking. This is to me one of those signs, crazy signs, that are just like a wallop in the face. I got a

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  cheque the next day from my grandmother's will, she died three months before, for three and a half thousand dollars. The exact dollar amount. Wild. Yeah, I mean, that, that's an obvious example. That's when the universe is going, all right, you're an idiot. I've given you a lot of signs. You went off and did that play, you walked into that house. You got that sign, you knew this is where you're meant to be, this is it, and maybe it's time to move on. And you're about to throw it up because the three and a half thousand dollars and that path you're meant to go down, you're gonna kind of falter at the first hurdle. And then the wallop comes to my face. And so I've had really clear moments of that, but I ask every single day, Tim.

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  Not ask, I, I manifest every single day that I will hear those messages. And they're not just about me, they're about my kids, they're about my wife, they're about my friends. They're about purpose, they're about meaning, they're about, um, life and coffee, there's all of that stuff that the direction I'm meant to go will become clear to me. A hundred percent clear in my gut. Remember I said about being verbose?

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  Feel free to cut up and edit away.

• 1:07:32Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no, I wouldn't say verbose. This is definitely suitable for long form.

• 1:07:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:07:37Tim Ferriss?

  The question of intuition. So one of the fine tuning questions I have, which is based on something you said earlier, which is even if it sometimes doesn't make sense, what I've noticed in my own experience is that oftentimes in retrospect, the most important times to listen to intuition, which you could think of any number of ways, right? You could think of it as a few million years of pre-verbal evolution, giving you a signal. You could think of it in a multitude of ways, but oftentimes the most important examples of me listening to intuition have been when it is seemingly made no sense, right? Where it hasn't been obvious. Are there any examples that come to mind for you where you're like, it just didn't seem to make sense?

• 1:08:19Tim Ferriss?

  I couldn't connect the dots at the time, but I just felt I knew I had to do X. Are there any examples like that that come to mind? And if not, that's okay as well?

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  Um, you know, when I perform on stage, there, um, I ad lib quite a lot. I go off the script. I go to things. I pull people out of the audience. I do stuff like that.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  I learned that from doing The Boy from Oz, where the character did that 10 minutes a night. And this is not a big life changing moment, but first thing that came to mind was just last year I was on stage and I never plan. People always think I've either planted someone in the audience because of what comes out. They're either be funny or something will happen. Or I've at least spent the first half of the show scouting the audience and scanning to see who I'm going to pick, but I don't. I use that as an example of just trusting that in front of 20,000 people in Madison Square Garden, I'm just going to go with my gut on who to pick. And that's something, and there's a reason for that.

• 1:09:23Speaker 00

  And I promise you nine times out of 10, something happens that is just crazy. And maybe it's because of that intention to be open and just to meet the situation as it arises. But I remember being in Sydney and in the middle of the show, I'd spotted this kid. And I was going on singing a song, I stopped the song. Something in my head said, you've got to grab that kid. So I said, I went up and the kid was dressed in the Greatest Showman outfit. That's probably what attracted my attention, which is not uncommon, to be honest, but I went and grabbed him. And he came up on stage and he started getting teary.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  Um, and I was worried that actually I'd got like an 11 year old kid up on stage and it'd been overwhelming for him. And so I just sort of brought it down and then he shared his story. That he had just, this was his first outing after recovering from brain surgery. And that the Greatest Showman was the thing he listened to every single day, the being here. Um, cut a long story short, I looked out, myself included. He, his father had also died, his father was a famous guitarist, I didn't know any of this. In Australia, in a famous band, he had died two years before, so the day he got his diagnosis.

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  Um, and by the way, not all this came out on stage, I found a lot of this out afterwards. But something in this kid made the entire audience melt and cry. The kid ended up staying on stage with us for the entire evening. His dream was to one day perform, he grabbed his guitar. He, I got his guitar up, he sang in front of 20,000 people, he got a standing ovation, tears are streaming down my face. Everyone, you know, he then went backstage, he joined us for the rest of our time in Sydney, he got backstage with his mum. And this was, you know, when you're doing a show with a hundred people in an arena. And your brain goes, go over to that kid. My head was screaming, don't listen to that.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  You're halfway through a number, you're two hours into the show, people have already been here for blah, blah, blah, like this is, you know. And going with that, that moment was one of the most transformative in the entire thing. And I have no idea why it came to me and I have no idea why I stopped, but I'm really grateful I did.

• 1:11:54Tim Ferriss?

  It seems to me, from the outside looking in at least, that you've cultivated the ability to surrender in specific circumstances like that, if that makes any sense at all. And that seems to be a huge strength. I want to come back to something you said.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  I've had to work on that, by the way. I really have. Because I can be a bit of a control.

• 1:12:18Tim Ferriss?

  How have you worked on it?

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  With Lauren Zander, my coach. She always jokes, and she goes, "Oh, hello, perfect Tommy." She's like, she's got, "You've got this alter ego, perfect Tommy in there." She gets it from Buckaroo Bonsai. I don't know if you ever saw that 80s movie.

• 1:12:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I know the movie.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, and perfect Tommy, right? She goes, "You're perfect Tommy." So, you know, sometimes even when you gave me that compliment at the beginning, when you say, you know, "You seem to be, you know, you're always kind to everyone," I'm like, "Is that real me? Or is that just perfect Tommy?" You know? So, but she's really made me work on that and to trust myself. Do the work that you need to do. Don't do an ounce more than you need to do. And I was more prone to be an overworker and over-warrior and miss some of the fun of my life because of it. And I've really worked hard on doing that, on film, of letting go, on stage, of not letting my own expectations get in the way.

• 1:13:13Tim Ferriss?

  And if we come back to the design of the day, if I'm remembering the phrasing you used, is that a paragraph that you write down in a journal or type out in the morning, which, if I'm getting this right, is, "Today I did X. Today I felt this." It's past tense for the day to come?

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  It's happened. So it's, yes, it's past tense. It's already happened. There's no, "I really hope." I think that I'm gonna try, I will, like, today. My son and I had the best hour together, laughing and talking, and we connected on some of the most elemental things in ways we've never connected. That kind of thing, it will have. And I do that every morning on a text, which I send to her. Because, as she says, you know, "We all need to be accountable to someone." And I'm looking at them now. Our relationship goes to new levels of honesty and intimacy.

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  So that's, you know, just that kind of thing, that Deb and I can, who, it's the best, really, the most successful part of my life, is my family life, but... Wanna go for more, there's new levels, there's other things, there must be things that I'm keeping hidden or I'm ashamed of that I that I should share, you know. So I write that every day and then either that night or if I'm too tired in the morning, I read it again and go, oh, wow, shit, that was a four out of 10, like that day did not turn out at all like that. And then it's got to do with belief, really, and and I'm new to this, man, like my wife's always been into manifestation and I was like, I don't know if that's the way to live life, like, you know, isn't more to be

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  open, like in presence and dealing in that stoic way to deal with what's coming, can we really manifest it, but I'll give you a really great example, so of that manifesting, the greatest showman, and I have not told this story, I was on the fence about it for a long time. The studio were on the fence, I wasn't sure if they were gonna make it, we, I wasn't, I just wasn't sure if her script was in the right place. And I had lots of reasons for that, and so Lauren, my life coach, who I found through Dr Mark Hyman, and has changed my life, she'll text me saying, I need to slap you. And I'm like, okay, so I ring her up and she goes, all right.

• 1:15:41Speaker 00

  For example, sometimes she'll ring me up and say, you know, I think in some, I think in general you're a good listener, but sometimes I think you're better at looking like a good listener than you really are a good listener. And I was like, all right, challenge accepted, slap taken, but in this case, she said to me, I think you're preparing to choke. I think you are laying the safety net for the greatest showman to be, to not work, and you're thinking up all the reasons outside of yourself why it won't work. And you have 24 hours to either decide to get on or get off, but if you're on, you

• 1:16:25Speaker 00

  need to be 100% in. And I was like, she's right, wasn't preparing for a choke, what was the, it's like, maybe preparing for a choke, but.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  I clearly, it's easier to do that in life. You know, I'm gonna give it a go. I'll give it my best, you know, look, I'm not sure. Musical's really hard, original musical's impossible. You know, you know, with, the studio won't spend this amount of money on this writer that we wanted. We got this writer, but you know, we're gonna give it our best. Like, you're right there in your language, pretty much gonna fail. And you're preparing yourself for the failure. And you don't wanna fall too far, so you've got the safety net. So that when it fails, you go, yeah, well, you know, if the studio spent a bit more money on the writer, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, X, Y, Z. So I hung up the phone, slap taken, a little stunned, and I just sat down for about an hour.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  And I imagined what that movie was gonna be in its end. And I imagined the effect it would have and why we were doing it. And then I wrote all that down. And then I wrote that down every day to the day we finished Principal Photography. And then I had to recommit again when we were in the editing process. And I just, let me be clear, our director, by the way, Michael Gracie, I have such high regard for him because from the moment we started and eight years he was working on that film. Everything that's happened with that film, he used to say, this is what's gonna happen. This is gonna be a movie that's gonna be around forever.

• 1:18:03Speaker 00

  This is gonna be one of the legacies of your career, you blah, blah, blah. He would say all these things. And I used to say to him, I said, Mike, this is your first film. Turn it down a little bit, dude. Like, why don't we just say, we make a great film? Do we have, does it have to be one of the most successful films? He would literally say, this is the most successful musical of all time. And he would never deviate from that, ever. So I'm not saying I was the only person manifesting, but I do think that was a big turning point. And when Lauren slapped me around, that changed my intention to that project completely. And I don't think that ensures you against failure.

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  But that quote of, don't insure yourself for failure, you know what I mean? Don't just, don't have that safety net out all the time. I really learned that from Lauren. And that's probably one of the best career examples I can give of that daily design.

• 1:18:59Tim Ferriss?

  What strikes me about that is, number one, the consistency, the daily practice. The second is the accountability, like you said. Yeah. Texting Lauren, which is something that I now want to do, even with a friend. I mean, people listening could, for instance, just find an accountability partner where you text each other in the morning. And then at 5:00 PM or 6:00 PM each evening, you check in and you have to score. So off against that accountability partner, it just seems like such a wonderful practice. And I'd like to, like to talk about practices and I just have a few more questions for you. And I'll pull from a quote first. You can, you can tell me if this is accurate or not.

• 1:19:40Tim Ferriss?

  This is from an interview in Oprah Magazine, but it relates to meditation and I'm going to use this as a segue. But I love the, the analogy that, that you use, which is everyone takes a shower every day and we don't complain about it. We do it out of discipline. There will always be an excuse not to meditate. In the Hindu tradition, there's something called a hankara, if I'm saying that correctly, or the ego. The ego's. A hankara. Hankara, there we go. The ego says, you don't need to meditate. You don't need to meditate, man. You're really busy. What about the kids? But do I say, I can't shower today because I have to make time for the kids? No. And one of the, I'm sure, many elements that seems to be a discipline for you is your, your physical practice, exercise.

• 1:20:23Tim Ferriss?

  You've transformed yourself multiple times, certainly. And I've seen you work out. It's, it's enough to make me want to retire my sneakers. It's just outrageous, the, the intensity involved. And I'd be curious to know if there are any particular exercises or types of exercise that you have found to be particularly good bang for the bucks. If you're, if you had to just take the desert island test and you could only take a handful of exercises or X, Y, and Z with you. Yeah. Does anything come to mind?

• 1:21:00Speaker 00

  Rowing machine, definitely, a rower.

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  Um, there's a reason the row is usually empty at the gym because it's biblical. Um, and a lot of people want to say it and feel they've worked out and they want to get a sweat, but they don't necessarily, and, and I learned a lot of this from your book, you know, and I worked at a gym, by the way, yeah, before our body, I worked at a gym for three years. So I saw a lot of people coming in five days a week and not really changing anything about them. Um, and the rowing machine, I think if you add in some chest works and pushups, that's in everything you need to keep fit, healthy, strong. Um, and I've, I've learned a lot of that. I, I work with Beth

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  Lewis, the trainer, who, uh, if you can look her up, she does a lot of free classes right now, I think during COVID. I found her through Peter. Do you know Beth? Have you met Beth?

• 1:22:00Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I know of Beth.

• 1:22:02Speaker 00

  Well, she was a powerlifter and a dancer. So she, it really is great for me because, I mean, in the past, even with someone like Wolverine, I have to prepare to look physically away, but I can't get injured. So I can't prepare as a bodybuilder. I have to be able to prepare

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  as a really jacked, ripped athlete slash dancer because fighting is dance. It is more relaxation in a fight scene than there is strength. Um, which is probably the case for, if you think about all the great athletes you see, uh, there's relaxation and, and, and that movement is moved in sports. That's why you see every sprinter poking their tongue out now and dancing around with joy before they run the hundred meters, you know, that sense of having the right level of relaxation. I think that they call it the 85% rule. If you tell most sort of A-type athletes to run at their 85% capacity, they will run faster than if you tell them to run a hundred

• 1:22:59Speaker 00

  because it's more about relaxation and form and optimizing the muscles in the right way. So Beth has really taught me that. But the rowing machine, man, you can't go wrong. You, and, and if you, and forget time, just do the seven minute thing. And I had to do this for a film, a movie, Australia. Baz wanted me to be big and so I was big and then about a month before he said, ah, doing a lot of research about these jackaroos or cowboys, he goes, they're lean, they're all lean, lean, lean. And I'm like, dude, you asked me to get big, I've been getting big. And he goes, I need you lean. So I went to my trainer and he goes, who was a rower?

• 1:23:39Speaker 00

  And he said, you want to get lean? Row. So apart, as well as the ice baths that I learned from your book, which I used all through the Wolverines, particularly the later Wolverines, when you see me in better shape, that's a great way to lose fat. Um, but seven minute row, four times a week, and the goal is 2,000 meters. And, and when you try it, at some point you're gonna hate me for it, but still, that's the quickest, best way.

• 1:24:08Tim Ferriss?

  That's, that's excellent advice. Yeah, the, the rower hits your entire, almost your entire posterior chain. And then you do some pushups and you're, you're in good shape.

• 1:24:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's such a good building exercise for deadlifts and all these core movements, compound movements, getting your scapula, everything sort of in the right place and your breathing and relaxing your neck, you know, at the same time as doing it. Um, yeah, I would say the rower.

• 1:24:34Tim Ferriss?

  And I love the, the 85% run at 85% effort example that you gave. I find so much truth in that statement. I haven't ever thought of it, but you could apply that to sitting down and writing. You could apply it to almost anything where being over tense is not your friend. It's not going to help you.

• 1:24:55Speaker 00

  No, no. And that's my, like, everyone's got different things. If I was coaching me, myself, like if I was the coach and Hugh Jackman was on my team, I wouldn't put more pressure on him, push him more. I wouldn't yell at him, scream that. I've got that motivation. If anything, I have had to work from building up insecurity. So I'm not good enough. Uh, I need to work extra hard. Uh, if I do everything perfectly and I work my ass off, then I'll be okay. That kind of thing. Which in the end does.

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  Certainly limit your ability to enjoy your life or enjoy the row or the show or anything like that, but it doesn't get the best out of you. It really doesn't. So I mentally quite often during the day, just before I do an activity, imagine that it's done, that feeling I have when it's done and gone well. And I go into it with that.

• 1:25:53Tim Ferriss?

  I love that.

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  It's that Viktor Frankl quote, "Live life as though it's the second time around, but you got it wrong the first time." Is a good one. And that's, that's what works for me. Or even if you practice simple thing, just sit down and as you're breathing in, imagine that you're breathing out. Cause a lot of us, me included, and I, and I got this from my singing teacher, I breathe in with a, all right, I gotta sing this big note. All right, let's hope it goes well, you know? And all of a sudden I'm tense and my breathing has gone up, my larynx goes up and I'm, I'm gonna have to work my ass off to get that note out, right? Whereas the great singers, the ones that make you melt when you listen to them sing, when they're breathing in preparing, it's like they're

• 1:26:38Speaker 00

  breathing out. They're relaxed as they breathe in.

• 1:26:41Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:26:42Speaker 00

  And then they're already prepared. So there's some of the little things I use. And I, I suspect you're a little similar to me, Tim, right? The eighty five, you, you work better with the eighty five percent rule?

• 1:26:51Tim Ferriss?

  I definitely do. I mean, if I, if I think about the times when I've performed best, it's never when I'm whipping myself extra fast and extra hard with a cat o' nine

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  Rights.

• 1:27:02Tim Ferriss?

  Because I don't need that.

• 1:27:05Speaker 00

  No, I, I don't like going to an opening night. Opening night, you feel everyone like, this is an opening night, it's gonna be the best. And I just wanna go, hey, chill out everyone. I prefer to go to Wednesday matinee, six weeks into the run. That's when you're gonna see the best show. So the trick is how can you get there? And by the way, do you know the eighty five percent rule? Do you know where that came from?

• 1:27:27Tim Ferriss?

  I do not.

• 1:27:28Speaker 00

  It came from a guy studying Carl Lewis, the sprinter.

• 1:27:32Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:27:34Speaker 00

  You couldn't understand why a guy who was routinely coming last or second last after forty metres, which traditionally in sprinting was meant to be where you won, you won in the first forty from the start, how someone like that would always win by ten yards at the end. And some people said, well, he's just a slow starter, but he's got a long stride, da, da, da. Then someone, this guy was studying it for a year, a sprint coach, and someone gave him finally one of those head-on shots, you know, they invented at the Olympics, that head-on shot where you watched them come down.

• 1:28:08Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:28:08Speaker 00

  And he watched it over and over again, and he said, what he realised Carl Lewis did at the fifty metre mark, sixty metre mark, was that he did nothing. His breathing was exactly the same, his form was exactly the same as had been between metres twenty-five and fifty, whereas everyone else starts to push to the end, trying and to try a little extra harder, he said their face would scrunch up, their jaw would tighten, their fists would start to clench, whereas Carl Lewis stayed exactly the same, and then it would just breeze past him. So that's where he invented the eighty-five percent rule.

• 1:28:43Tim Ferriss?

  I love it, I love it. I need more of that in my life, to be honest. I think that's something that I need to cultivate. And I, just, just a, just a few short questions left to you, I really appreciate all the time, and this one is something I think is near and dear to your heart, and it's, it's puzzles and games. So you, you, some people know this, but not everybody realises that you're a connoisseur of puzzles and games, and I'm wondering, for, for someone who has been perhaps a little too serious, taking themselves and their work a little too seriously, and they need or want to explore puzzles or games, are there any that you might, any approaches or specific games or puzzles you might recommend people start with?

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  Start with a thousand piece, right? Anything less than that's probably gonna be, like a thousand pieces good, you know, and that'll take you a few weeks probably, but it's just enough of a challenge. Don't, don't pick up the black and white photo, right, on the front cover to start with. Have some colour, make it a little easier. I love the company Wentworth, there's a few other puzzle companies, but Wentworth...

• 1:29:57Speaker 00

  When you put it, it's got like this, some technology, when you put the piece in, it's like squeezing a pimple, it goes, ah, it's like the best, like you know, like there's some puzzles that are made a bit cheaply and you're like, I think that fits, not sure, this has got something about it, click technology or something, and you go, um. So, yeah, clearly I'm into it. Oh, yeah, that's amazing. See, after a show, you say, what do I like doing after a show? Like, if I could have my way, I'd eat something and I'd just spend an hour doing a puzzle. Um, I actually have to set my alarm to make myself go to bed because I can stay up till four in the morning doing puzzles. And for someone with restless leg syndrome, by the way, it doesn't come up at all when I'm doing a puzzle. Let's start with a Wentworth one thousand piece.

• 1:30:39Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have, two things, do you have any recommendations on subject matter for the, for the image? And then number two, what do you get from assembling puzzles? What is it that makes it so addictive to you and so mesmerizing?

• 1:30:52Speaker 00

  Um, I like to do

• 1:30:56Speaker 00

  puzzles of places, um, that I've been or lived in, like so, or now you can send in a photograph. And I did this one at Christmas, so I did this for Deb for Valentine's Day. I sent her a photo of the two of us. It's a shot she loves and we're on a vacation to a place we always go to. So as I'm going through it, it's reminding me of where I've been, of that feeling in that moment. And because you look at a scene, all the ones of New York, you're looking at this scene for about a month and you're focusing in minute details of this building, that building or that tree, this tree. When you go back to that place, you go out into that world, your appreciation of the world is so much greater.

• 1:31:40Speaker 00

  I, I guess, I'm not an artist, but how artists must feel when they're trying to solve color. That when they watch a sunset, they're appreciating in a way far more, because they spend all that time immersed in different colors and combinations and composition. Um, why is it so addictive? I don't know, like, the reason I got into it, I got into it at a point, my father had just had an operation or something. I thought, I've got to find something for the two of us to do together. And he had no interest, like. We were thirty minutes in and he was like, yeah, I'm out. And I had not done a puzzle since I was like eight years of age and now I'm addicted to them. So it stuck for me. I think it's probably another form of meditation in a way.

• 1:32:25Speaker 00

  It stops my mind going. There is a weird sense of accomplishment even in every piece. Oh, I got that piece. It's it's detail. It's your zoning in on this image for a month and looking at it and looking at the detail. Um, it's just deeply satisfying to my mind, um, my being. I just, I just feel very relaxed when I do it. I feel guilty when I do it because it's a very solitary thing and I try and get the kids involved. You know, really to offset the guilt.

• 1:32:59Speaker 00

  But they're not into it really. So, you know.

• 1:33:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. It sounds like to me I need to take a picture of a beautiful outdoor space, have it made into a puzzle, read the over story and work on.

• 1:33:12Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:33:14Tim Ferriss?

  That sounds like it would.

• 1:33:15Speaker 00

  Where do you sit and have coffee? Do you sit out in the backyard there? Where, where are you?

• 1:33:18Tim Ferriss?

  I sit, I, I sit outside. I'm very fortunate to have a lot of trees nearby.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  Take a photo of that, right?

• 1:33:25Tim Ferriss?

  That's great.

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  You send it off to, I think it's, oh, I'll send it to you. I can't remember the name, but off by heart, I put it on my website once, my Jigsaw puzzle or something.

• 1:33:33Tim Ferriss?

  I'll put it.

• 1:33:33Speaker 00

  Anyway.

• 1:33:33Tim Ferriss?

  That's once you send it to me too.

• 1:33:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, and, and then when you go out for that coffee, it will always be different to you. You'll notice things that you've never noticed before.

• 1:33:47Tim Ferriss?

  And that is, I think that's a big part of the art of living, it seems to me. And is becoming sensitive to noticing the little things because you know, the little, the little things.

• 1:33:59Speaker 00

  I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.

• 1:34:01Tim Ferriss?

  In isolation.

• 1:34:02Speaker 00

  And I love that you use that phrase art. It is an art. That's, I mean. I I used to think it was an Australian thing like, I think it was an Australian thing like, oh, come on, all Americans always have, you know, therapists, psychiatrists, and come on, you know, silly, but it's a little arrogant to think you've got it all sorted out. Why? Why wouldn't you want to help? Like, Roger Federer is the greatest tennis player of all time, and he is our full-time coach, right?

• 1:34:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:34:28Speaker 00

  So, why, Pavarotti, I have a single, Pavarotti had a singing teacher to the end of his life. Um, why wouldn't we invest that in the art of living? Um, and so certainly with me, with Lauren, Xander, that's changed my life in the last four years, big time.

• 1:34:48Tim Ferriss?

  Hugh, I so enjoy our conversations, and this has been so much fun. And I really applaud you for dedicating yourself to the art of living and continual improvement, and also sharing your gifts with the world. I think that, I mean, you really are, and I know, I hope this doesn't come off as trite sounding, but you really are what a diehard fan would hope you to be. And I don't mean that in a superficial way, but the kindness that they see, the compassion that they see, that is not an illusion. And I feel that's important to underscore because I do think it's rare. I do think it's rare.

• 1:35:31Tim Ferriss?

  And I recognize that that's not just how you popped out of the womb. That's required deliberate thought and practice and awareness. So I really appreciate that. I appreciate you. And

• 1:35:45Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:35:45Tim Ferriss?

  you so much for taking the time to spend

• 1:35:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Tim Ferriss?

  spend some time today.

• 1:35:49Speaker 00

  Honestly, it was my pleasure, really. And keep up the great work and good luck with the puzzle, man.

• 1:35:55Tim Ferriss?

  You too, you too.

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  I'm telling you, man, I know, I think I know enough about you. Your girlfriend is gonna rue the day I ever met you.

• 1:36:06Tim Ferriss?

  I'll have to make sure I have a backup puzzle for Valentine's Day and we'll

• 1:36:11Tim Ferriss?

  That's a great way in. I'll accept the risk. And to everybody listening, you can find show notes on everything we discussed, and there will be lots, lots of goodies at tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, thanks for tuning in.

• 1:36:27Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend. And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite

• 1:37:12Tim Ferriss?

  of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is a brand new cereal that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein, and zero sugar. I just ate a huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time Magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 2019, and Forbes called it "the future of cereal." It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood, remember that?

• 1:37:57Tim Ferriss?

  But it's actually good for you. Each serving has 11 grams of protein, 3 grams of net carbs, 0 grams of sugar, and only 110 calories. It's also gluten-free, grain-free, keto-friendly, soy-free, and GMO-free. All the things. It's delicious. And I don't say that lightly because most of this is a healthy version. Of X stuff is not delicious, but these guys really nailed it. Magic Spoon has nailed it. It comes in your favorite traditional cereal flavors like cocoa, frosted, and blueberry. You can try them all by grabbing a variety pack at magic spoon.com/tim. Or you can just grab a box or a bunch of boxes. I'm gonna order some more today of the cocoa, which is my personal favorite. But there is a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited

• 1:38:41Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:39:26Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:40:10Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:40:54Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:41:34Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:42:17Tim Ferriss?

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