#438: Coach George Raveling on This Unique Moment in Time, How to Practice Self-Leadership, Navigating Difficult Conversations, and Much More

“My hope is that we will be who we say we are. All of us.” — Coach George Raveling Coach George Raveling (@GeorgeRaveling https://twitter.com/GeorgeRaveling/) is an 82-year-old living legend and Nike’s former Director of International Basketball. Coach Raveling was the first African-American head basketball coach in the PAC-8 (now PAC-12). On August 28, 1963, at age 26, while volunteering as security at the March on Washington, Raveling would humbly become the guardian https://www.cbsnews.com/news/guardian-of-history-mlks-i-have-a-dream-speech-lives-on/ of what we have come to know as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s “I Have a Dream” speech. Coach Raveling has held head coaching positions at Washington State, the University of Iowa, and USC. Following a prolific basketball coaching career, he joined Nike at the request of Phil Knight, where he played an integral role in signing a reluctant Michael Jordan. He’s also been inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame http://www.hoophall.com/ and the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame https://collegebasketballexperience.com/hall-of-fame/. Coach George Raveling made his first appearance on the podcast https://tim.blog/2018/08/09/george-raveling/?utm_source=convertkit&utm_medium=convertkit&utm_campaign=podcast-description in 2018, and for me, it was one of the most impactful interviews I’ve done, and I came out of it walking on air. We covered a lot of ground in that first interview, including how Coach Raveling came to own the original copy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s “I Have a Dream” speech, how his practice team ended up beating the 1984 US Olympic Dream Team in basketball, how he helped convince Michael Jordan to sign with Nike, and much more. I strongly urge you to listen to that conversation https://tim.blog/2018/08/09/george-raveling/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description about Coach’s life, philosophies, and lessons learned. I invited George back on the podcast to hear his thoughts on everything that is happening right now. These are difficult and uncertain times for millions of people, and my heart goes out to each and every person navigating the depths of sadness, anger, and fear. As you’ll hear in today’s episode, Coach Raveling has great hope. He’s seen many changes in his lifetime, and we can all strive to be the positive change agents that he implores us to be. Please enjoy this timely—and timeless—conversation with Coach George Raveling. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Please fill out the form at tim.blog/sponsor http://tim.blog/sponsor. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Now would be seen an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, ladies and gentlemen. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This is a powerful and unusual episode featuring Coach George Raveling, who made his first appearance on the podcast in 2018. Right now, I'm looking at a tweet from a listener, Ryan M., who called it "his favorite podcast of all time." That type of feedback came in again and again. For me personally, it was one of the most impactful interviews I've ever done, and I came out of it walking on air, effectively. Coach Raveling is really much more than a coach of sports. He is a coach of life and has led many people through difficult decisions, difficult periods, difficult transitions.

• 1:03Tim Ferriss?

  We covered a lot of ground in that first interview, including how Coach Raveling came to own the original copy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech, how his practice team ended up beating the 1984 U.S. Olympic Dream Team in basketball, how he helped convince Michael Jordan to sign with Nike, and much, much more. You can find it by going to tim.blog/gerorgravelling, R-A-V-E-L-I-N-G. I strongly encourage you to listen to that conversation when you can about Coach's life philosophies and lessons learned. I invited George back on the podcast to hear his thoughts on everything that is happening right now. These are obviously very difficult and uncertain times for millions of people, and my heart goes out to each and every person navigating the depths of sadness, anger,

• 1:48Tim Ferriss?

  fear, and many other emotions right now. As you'll hear in today's episode, Coach Raveling has great hope. He's seen many changes in his lifetime, and we can all strive to be the positive change agents that he implores us to be. Before we get to today's conversation, here is a very brief bio, which barely scratches the surface. Coach George Raveling, on Twitter @georgravelling, is an 82-year-old living legend and Nike's former

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  Director of International Basketball. Coach Raveling was the first African American head basketball coach in the Pac 8, now Pac 12. On August 28, 1963, at age 26, while volunteering as security at the March on Washington, Ravelling humbly became the guardian of what we now know as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech. Coach Ravelling has held head coaching positions at Washington State, the University of Iowa, and USC. Following a prolific basketball coaching career, he joined Nike at the request of Phil Knight, where he played an integral role in signing a reluctant Michael Jordan. He's also been inducted into the Nysmith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame and the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame.

• 2:49Tim Ferriss?

  Please enjoy this timely and very timeless conversation with Coach George Ravelling. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement? And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today.

• 3:31Tim Ferriss?

  You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drinkag1, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out. Coach, I appreciate you taking time to record this follow-up to our conversation. It is June 7, 2020, following the death of George Floyd. A lot is happening. How or where would you like to start?

• 4:10Speaker 03

  I would like to start with a prayer.

• 4:13Tim Ferriss?

  Please do.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Dear merciful God, we come before you on this day to request that you compassionately welcome George Floyd into your heavenly kingdom. Please restore his breath.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  His heartbeat, heal his wounds, allow him to live the life he was denied on earth.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  God, shower some of your richest gifts on the Floyd family. Give them the strength during these challenging times.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Dear God, answer George's dying request for his mother. Please, please unite them one more time.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  And finally, dear Lord, we ask you to bring comfort and understanding to the multitude of families who have suffered the loss of their own loved ones during these times of social change. We make this request in your name. Amen.

• 5:35Tim Ferriss?

  Amen. Thank you for that. George, I find myself in a very different place than I normally would in these conversations. I typically come in with a long list of questions. I've typically done a lot of homework on the person I'll be speaking with, and we've already had one very, very long conversation and covered a lot. But this is really a, an afternoon where I would like to do more listening than anything else. And I would just love to hear from you what you're, what you're observing or what you'd like to share about yourself as a way of entering into this conversation.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  One of the things that you might find intriguing, Tim, is that I have had what I call a stop strategy. And I've had this for years and years and years. And I feel it's so applicable to contemporary times and the things we're dealing with now. I think each of us are given one life to live. And each of us have a fundamental responsibility to protect that life and to protect ourselves from death.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  And when I have conversations with myself, I say to myself, I must never forget this reality.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  I am black forever.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  And my number one goal is to stay alive.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  You know, I'm eighty, eighty-two-year-old black man.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  And I drive a, a black Lexus SUV.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  And thus, I feel I have to have a stop strategy. What do I do if I'm pulled over by the police? I've got to turn off the motor.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  I'm going to turn on the phone so I have some overt evidence of what took place. I'm going to roll the window down. I'm going to put my hands high up on the steering wheel so that it can, it'll be obvious that I don't have anything in my hands. I'll be polite. I'll be overly polite and I'll say yes, sir, and no, sir, or yes, ma'am, and no, ma'am. And if there's a request made for my license, I'll ask for permission to reach into my pocket and pull it out. I'll give them my driver's license and I'll also give them

• 8:32Speaker 03

  an old faculty ID card that I had from when I was coaching at USC.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  And then I'll pray.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  And at that moment, I only have one objective. And that is to stay alive. And Tim, I don't know, it comes a time when you're

• 8:57Speaker 03

  when you, you being a black person, we have to be confronted with this reality. And that reality is that we're black forever. But you know what? The burden of being black is something that I welcome. And hopefully it'll bring out the best in me.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  The very best in me. And, and when all is said and done,

• 9:27Speaker 03

  the only, the only true validation I seek is, is my self-validation.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  I've grown to understand that it, it, it's, it's just senseless for me to struggle for America's validation. If I do that, Tim, I'm always going to be chasing a ghost. And so that's why as an eighty-two-year-old black male, I understand the importance and relevance of having what I call a stop strategy.

• 10:05Tim Ferriss?

  And have you ever had to use that? Or have you used it outside? Do you have other stop strategies for outside of the automobile? How else? What other strategies have you carried with yourself throughout life as a black male? Do any come to mind?

• 10:21Speaker 03

  As it relates to, to being stopped by a policeman, I, I, I, that's as simple as, as it's, I've been pulled over for, on times and, and to be totally transparent, if it was, if I ran a light or I, I had a speeding ticket, I, I clearly understand that. But I also recognize that there's a protocol that the law enforcement has to engage in. And so I'm not going to ever assume that.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  That my life is not at at at risk. And and so um I I I want to be I I want to be prepared when when i- if something like that happens.

• 11:12Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Sadly, I I I feel like I've reached a point in life where I have to live my life on defense. I've got to worry more about someone else's deportment or behavior than my own. And I realize that, as I said, I'll forever be black, so I I have to expect that there's going to be certain preconceived ideas about me as a black male.

• 11:50Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  People people think they know me, Tim, but they don't they don't really know me. And I could honestly say to you in my lifetime that most people have never really tried to know me. They have a surface impression of me. And maybe one of our challenges i- is to try to to better understand each other. I don't put an indictment on people, but I feel I'm guilty of that. I think I I need to know people better. I need I need to feel their pain. I need to to to to understand that they're carrying somebody else's cross.

• 12:35Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. And and you mentioned impressions, misconceptions. I I want to mention for people who perhaps didn't listen to part one, because I imagine a lot of people will jump to this very timely as at the time of recording conversation we're having now. But you own probably more than a hundred thousand dollars' worth of black collectibles, uh, including figurines, books, postcards, first edition of Uncle Tom's Cabin. And some of these are very derogatory. Uh, a black person eating watermelon with a smile on his face on a postcard, for instance, and some of the notes themselves written on those postcards are very derogatory. Uh, and I remember from our first conversation, you started to build this historic collection

• 13:18Tim Ferriss?

  so that you could have a legacy for your children and their children. Why is that?

• 13:24Speaker 03

  I think that. One, they're historical. Two, I need a constant reminder of, of times gone by and how we, how we arrived at where we are today. I, I, I, I used to go to, to post, to postcard and antique shows and, and I would go and search out the vendors who, who sold postcards. I, I have over a thousand of them. And back to the point, Tim, when, when you didn't even have to put a stamp on them.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  And the one common denominator of them all is the derogatory pictures of black folks eating watermelon, big lips, smiling, like we're, the subtle ref- references or inferences that, look, they're happy. They're not bewildered. They, they, look, look, look, we, we treat them good. Look, they smiling. And, and they remind me also to tell a story of this long journey of inequity and, and injustice. And so, I, I, I've collected, uh, the cards.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  I mean, if you, if you were to, to read some of the messages on there, uh, they're abominable. But it's a, it remind me of the long road we've traveled and the long road that we still have to travel to become who we, we say we are. I say something to you, Tim, that, um, that's been a, a little bit surprising to me, uh, is, um, and it's somewhat of a personal phenomenon, but as of this moment that we speak, I can,

• 15:29Speaker 03

  I could, uh, report to you that eighty-five percent, uh, of my white friends and associates have not called me.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  And, uh, so I think it begs some questions. Do I think they're obligated? Absolutely not. Am I mad at them or disappointed? No.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Do I think it would be helpful? Yes. Um, so then the question is why? I think it's another overt example, in my opinion. It's because people don't know what to say. I, I, I get it. Most of us are not ready. And we're not good at having real conversations. We're not good at having, uh, difficult conversations. Because real conversations challenge us.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  Real conversations, uh, and difficult conversations, in my opinion, they make us stand in our own truth. And they teach us that we have to be truth tellers. And we gotta, we gotta listen to learn.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  And not only that, I think we, we, we have to learn to ask, um, intelligent questions. We are two-sided. We are the problem and we are the solution.

• 17:14Tim Ferriss?

  Now, you and I have, have chatted recently and you've mentioned the importance of honest conversations. And one thing you've, you've mentioned to me that I'd love to hear you elaborate on is you said, you know, honest conversations with others and honest conversations with ourselves. What do you mean by that?

• 17:34Speaker 03

  Well, you know, first of all, Tim, when someone says, hey, hey, uh, Coach or hey, George, I'd like to, I want to meet with you, I wanna, can I have, I like to talk to you about something. So immediately I go and start to have a conversation with myself. And the first thing I say to myself, is this gonna be a conversation? Or is this gonna be a debate?

• 18:05Speaker 03

  Because it's totally different. You know, it, it, some people, they, they frame it as, as a, a conversation, but it really becomes a, a debate. Because if it's a debate, it's about winning and losing. It's about right and wrong. And I surrender right from the beginning. I'll gladly say, you're right. I'm wrong. Because I, you get in this conversation and the person's sole intent is to prove to you that they are right and you are wrong. Or hopefully, they can get you to be who they, they want you to be and to think like they want you to think.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  I think to have a real conversation, the first thing a person's got to do is, is they've got to have, have the willingness to stand in their own truth. And they've gotta be willing to, to tell the truth. And I believe people have to listen, to learn and to understand. God knows if there is ever a time in our lives when we need to listen, to learn and understand, it's, it's at the, at this time right now. And another thing that I think to have a real conversation is we've got to govern, uh, our talk to listen ratio.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  And to go back, to put more clarity on the question that you asked, I think some of the most important conversations we can have each day are the conversations that we have with ourselves. There's basically two conversations we engage in. The conversations with others and the conversation with ourselves. And, and I, I do believe that probably the most important conversations we have are the conversations we have with ourselves. When, when we listen to our inner voice and, and we talk, and, and many ways, I believe

• 20:08Speaker 03

  right now, two of the most important, uh, words in the English language are we and us. As a society, I would really like to see us have more conversations about...

• 20:25Speaker 03

  Life and death and right and wrong. I really think we do ourselves a disservice when we don't deal with the fundamentals, the fundamentals of life, and there's nothing more fundamental than a life. And what gives one human being the the audacity to think that they have the right to take someone else's life? What is it that would make one human being totally devalue and disrespect the life of another human being regardless of what color they are?

• 21:08Speaker 03

  It's just human arrogance that that one could be so disrespectful of the greatest gift of all the gift of a life. And why don't we have conversations around that fundamental aspect? And why is it that we don't have meaningful discussions about uh right and wrong? I think in some ways, Tim, I think each of us tend to see the world through our own lenses. I don't know, maybe maybe it'd be helpful if if we would attempt to see the world through

• 21:49Speaker 03

  the lens of others and it I know one thing for sure, it would give us a a balanced perspective.

• 21:57Tim Ferriss?

  I was just gonna say, and I think it also making an attempt to do that can defuse some of the reactivity or emotion that can escalate things and cause greater problems. And one thing you said to me in our last conversation was that, and I'm paraphrasing here, so please feel free to correct, but it relates to what you just said. You said, if you start with white and black or white versus black, black versus white, immediately many people on both sides are going to be in the defensive and it's going to become, like you said earlier, a debate. And would it not be more helpful to try to go to a higher level where you can find some shared experience or shared uh?

• 22:41Tim Ferriss?

  Important questions to, to, to at least begin the conversation so that not everyone is in debate form and, and reactive. So I just wanted to, to sort of echo that because it came to mind as you were speaking.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  It can't be. A hard call reality is this, that many days we spend more time talking to the screen than we do face to face with a human being. And I've kind of grown in the latter years of my life to understand that I'm a product of an educational system that was based on telling me what to do and what to think, instead of teaching me how

• 23:35Speaker 03

  to think. And so, so much of my time now is spent trying to teach myself how to think. And there's so much time that I, I have to make up because of the fact that I didn't ever really understand the relevance or importance of being able to think because someone always

• 24:10Speaker 03

  told me what to think. And in many ways, you, as a black person growing up, in a variety of ways, there's always someone telling you, we know what's best for you. If I don't know what's best for me, then how the hell can somebody else think they know what's best for me?

• 24:41Tim Ferriss?

  If you flashback to the civil rights movement, for people who may have jumped ahead and skipped our first conversation, you own the original copy of the, what later became known as the "I Have a Dream" speech. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. handed you this speech himself as he came off of the dais because you were, you ended up, through an amazing story, which people can listen to part one for, you ended up working security as a volunteer and were handed this speech. So you've, you've been in the thick of so many defining moments in the history of this country, certainly as it relates to civil rights. What are some

• 25:23Tim Ferriss?

  of the differences that you see or commonalities that you see when you look back at your experience in the civil rights movement and you look at what's happening right now?

• 25:33Speaker 03

  I, I think that I keep going back every day and I have these inner conversations with myself about life and death. And that's one thing that hasn't changed is, for a lot of us, it's still about life and death. I remember watching a documentary on television

• 26:08Speaker 03

  and it was about the lunch counter demonstrations in Greensboro in years gone by. And the leader of the demonstrators, they were having a meeting in church. And at the end of the meeting, the leader said to the demonstrators, he said, "Before y'all leave, I need you to do something. I need you to hug everybody in this room and tell them that you love

• 26:51Speaker 03

  them." He said, "And I want you to, every one of you, to do it, no matter how long it takes. And, and I want you to tell them goodbye." He said,

• 27:10Speaker 03

  Because tomorrow night when we meet,

• 27:14Speaker 03

  some of y'all ain't gonna be here.

• 27:18Speaker 03

  And it goes back to that same thing.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Our lives. And I, to this day, I'm so startled

• 27:33Speaker 03

  at the courage that those students had.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  I don't know

• 27:41Speaker 03

  when I was eighteen or nineteen or twenty and I was a student at Villanova,

• 27:50Speaker 03

  if I would have had the courage

• 27:54Speaker 03

  to put my life on the line and know

• 27:59Speaker 03

  that tomorrow night, I might not be back.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  And Tim, so much of this,

• 28:11Speaker 03

  we would like to think it's about black and white, and it is.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  But it's, it's about life. It's about human life. And I, I, I, I say, I don't know if I could have done it. I don't know if I, if I, I, I, if I had to, I'm sure I would. Martin Luther King used to say, if a man or woman hasn't found something in life they're willing to die for, then maybe they're not fit to live. And there comes that seminal moment every one of our lives where we have to say to ourselves, do I live?

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Or do I die? And so it, it's tough. You know, you, you, you, something just popped into my mind. You were asking me about, about the collections and that. And something popped in my mind. I just, I think if we don't understand our past, Tim, and our present, then there'll be no future. And so there's symbolic.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Evidence of the past. But if I don't understand my past and my present, I have no future.

• 29:28Tim Ferriss?

  And when you think about building a future and crafting a path towards a future that is better than today, one distinction that you've drawn in our previous conversations is group leadership versus, I think you put it as self-leadership. Could you speak to what that means?

• 29:49Speaker 03

  If you were to go into the bathroom in my house right now, Tim, in the middle of the mirror, in the mirror in the main bathroom is probably six, well, maybe not six feet, maybe four, four feet long and it's very rectangular. And in the middle of it, I have a sign up there. And I taped it, so I have to see it every day and every morning and every evening and times throughout the day. And the sign simply says, "Practice."

• 30:31Speaker 03

  And then underneath it, it has two statements, self-leadership and self-discipline. And I don't think that there's any more relevant or important time to practice those. We say, and rightfully so, that we're lacking in leadership. I've asked numerous of my friends over the last few months, Tim, this question. Tell me who you think are the five greatest leaders on the globe right now?

• 31:13Speaker 03

  And none of them can be a corporate executive. And I have not had one single person who could get past three names.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  And so I say that's overt evidence that that we are in the midst of a leadership crisis, a deficit. But I do know that if one were to go to the library in Congress and look up books on leadership, there would be over 3,000 books written on leadership. But those books all speak to group leadership. There are three or four books on self-leadership. Robert Greenleaf's book is probably the most prominent.

• 32:04Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, this is, uh, this is The Forty Eight Laws of Power by Robert Green?

• 32:08Speaker 03

  No, no, no, not, not Robert Green. This is a book by Greenleaf.

• 32:13Tim Ferriss?

  Greenleaf.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  And it's on self-leadership. And so to me, if you can't lead yourself, how in the world are you gonna lead anybody else? And for many of us, the only person we're ever gonna get to lead is ourself. And so I can continue to say we have bad leadership, we're lacking leadership, check. But I have a responsibility to lead myself in these times of turmoil. And then the second part of that sign says, uh, to be self-disciplined.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  And so I think if nothing else, I have to serve as a overt example of someone who recognizes the need for leadership and recognizes that I can control my self-leadership, that I can exercise my self-discipline. And so, but so much of my life has, has kinda never changed, Tim. Most of my life has been governed by a simple formwork. Survive and thrive.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  I mean, if I could take you back...

• 33:45Speaker 03

  To June twenty seventh nineteen thirty seven. A little, a, a little black boy. Was born in the basement of a segregated hospital. In Washington DC.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  And they gave that baby the name George. And he was born in the, the basement of this segregated hospital. Called Garfield and it was at eleven from Florida Avenue. And blacks were only, could enter the, the hospital from, from the back and they had to go down to the basement.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  And so, the first breath as a human being that, that I breathed. Was the air, from the air of segregation. And from that moment on.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  I've had. To figure out. How do I? Survive? When I was growing up in Washington DC, this, the, the city was seventy-three percent black. Today, it's forty-five percent black, the lowest, uh, uh, it's, it, it slipped under fifty percent for the first time in fifty years. When you hear people use the connotation Chocolate City. Washington DC was the original Chocolate City with seventy-three percent of the population.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  And so, this black boy child, George Ravine, he lived over. A meat market and over the meat market on the second floor. There were three apartments and none of them had a bathroom. There was a bathroom at the end of the hallway. That had a commode, a sink and a tub.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  And there's three. Families who lived in those apartments. We had to learn to be self-disciplined. We had to practice self-leadership. We had to figure out how three families could use one commode, one seat, and one bath.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  But we made it, we made it work. And I, the, we, we lived on the corner of Florida Avenue and New Jersey Avenue. We could walk from, from there to what is now Howard University. But at that time, when I was a young boy, Washington had a baseball team called the Washington Senators. And people were fond of saying, first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League. But you could, but they played their games in Griffin Stadium. And I could walk to Griffin Stadium from my, where I lived. And so I used to walk up there.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  And I got a job selling scorecards. In the old days in baseball, you, you didn't have the technology and so forth. And so the, the fans would have a scorecard and they would keep this, the data and the, and the score on the scorecard. And so what you did is you stood outside the stadium and you, and you sold scorecards and pencils.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  And I also tried to deliver, uh, uh, or did deliver newspapers to make, uh, some little extra money. In those days, Tim, if you were black, you didn't have the luxury to dream. Some people say, when you were a little kid, did you dream, ever dream you were gonna be a coach or this? Dreaming for a black person in those days was a luxury. You got up every morning and you looked out at the world in a tiptoe stance and you tried to figure out, how can I survive? You had no dreams, you had no hopes. It, it was literally all about surviving from day to day.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  And here I am at the age eighty-two.

• 38:19Speaker 03

  And I still grapple with the same thing. How can I survive? And how can I thrive? Here I am in the reality is this. I'm an eighty-two-year-old black male, a former basketball coach. And so the challenge for me is, how can I remain relevant in an ever-changing world? And what is it that I don't know?

• 39:00Speaker 03

  But I need to know to stay relevant? So there's different times and different faces and different places, but the fundamental hasn't changed. How do I survive? And how do I thrive?

• 39:19Tim Ferriss?

  And you are a voracious reader. I mean, your nickname, which people might remember from the first conversation, is the human Google. I mean, you have read thousands upon thousands of books. And just to clarify, you mentioned the name Robert Greenleaf. Is that the book? I just pulled it up here. Servant Leadership, subtitle, A Journey into the Nature. And the subtitle is A Journey into the Nature of Legitimate Power and Greatness, which has been a classic, it looks like, for twenty-five years at this point. Are there any other books that have helped you in developing your own ability to self-lead or to improve self-discipline?

• 40:04Tim Ferriss?

  Do any other resources or practices come to mind that you've found particularly helpful?

• 40:10Speaker 03

  One of the books that I found helpful, and when I say helpful, if I read something in a book that causes me to change my behavior, then I feel I really found something unique and special. I read a book many years ago by Mark McCormick called Things They Don't Teach at Harvard Business School. And it's always been one of my favorites. The True Believer by Eric Hoffer was another book.

• 40:43Speaker 03

  Uh, there's tons of books I, I, I could name. I, I, I tell you this, Tim, a book I'm reading right now, I would ask all of our listeners to, to buy this book. Um, and it's called Tell Me Who You Are. It should be mandatory reading for anyone who wants to understand why we are in the situation we are today, not from the pandemic, but in all of the other, uh, areas of inequity in our social system.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  It, it, uh, I don't wanna talk too much about the book. It's written by two women. It's an extraordinary book and, and I thought I knew a lot about racial injustice. I thought I understood a lot of things, um, about the least of God's children. But when I read this book, it's very hard, Tim, for me to read more than three pages and I don't start to tear up. Hmm. But if you buy this book, buy it with the intent to learn and understand. Otherwise, if you're just buying it for entertainment, don't buy it. Mm-hmm.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  It's a book that's gonna cause you to have difficult conversations with yourself. It's, it's a book that's gonna reveal what I call the other America. There's a, actually was a book written that was, was the, the, uh, emphasis for the war on poverty, but there was a book written called The Other America by Michael Harrington. And, uh, so I borrowed that phrase, the other America. There's an America out there that we don't know about, but we need to know about. I don't know the two young ladies who wrote the book. I, I, I'm not trying to promote, uh, or sell books.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  I'm just trying to tell you, if you really, really wanna understand and you wanna learn.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  You've got to read this book. And you don't have to read it all at once because it's going to be hard to do because because you're going to cry. You're going to feel guilty. You're going to, you're going to say, wow, how could one person treat another person like this?

• 43:19Tim Ferriss?

  The Tell Me Who You Are is by Winona Guo, G U O, and Priya Valsi. I'll certainly link to that in the show notes for this, this conversation as well. So people will be able to find that at tim.blog/podcast and just search your name. The question I'd love to explore with you, George, is what you would say to people right now who are really angry? Because as you said, you know, you, you, some of these first person accounts, certainly many people have had personal experiences that are just reflective of such gross injustice, such mistreatment.

• 44:00Tim Ferriss?

  And you have a lot of people right now who are angry of, of all different colors and creeds. What would you say to people who are feeling consumed by anger at the moment?

• 44:12Speaker 03

  I would want to ask questions and I would want to listen. I would want to understand in greater depth why they're angry. Because I don't want to assume the obvious. The obvious is never the obvious. The problem is that we think is never the, the, but once you, you attack a problem, what you thought was the real problem was never the real problem. Once you get going, you'll discover the real problem. So I want to listen and I want to understand and not assume that I know why this person is angry.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  And I think in many ways, all of us need to be angry and we need to be befuddling that because I truly believe that we live in a country and we, we live a lot.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  And what I mean by that is, if you pick up our paper currency, it says, "United States of America." If you go back to the framer, the framers say, "We, the people." But in many ways, we're living a lie. Because we're not who we say we are. We're not united, and it's not about the people. And these lies, they're just gonna hold us in hostage. But the truth will free us.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  And to me, the system is built to separate us. Not just by race, the system is built to marginalize us.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  We talk about red states, and blue states, and foreign belt, and Rust Belt, and Democrats, and Republicans, and Conservatives, and tea parties, and rich people. And we all have these boxes that someone wants to put us in. And all these labels, "America leads the world," and labels. Everything's gotta have a label on it. And so, my fundamental question is this. Why does there have to be a box?

• 46:46Speaker 03

  Boxes have four walls.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  And at some point, they fill up. With four walls, it limits my movement. So why do I have to operate from a box? The first thing intelligence tells me, if I'm in a box, it impedes my ability to reach for my outer limits as a human being. So if we allow people to keep us in boxes, how will one ever reach their outer limits? How will one ever be able to answer the question, "Who am I?" If I don't get a chance to explore my outer limits, how do I know who I am?

• 47:34Speaker 03

  And why I'm on Earth? And what is it that I'm capable of being? So, in many ways...

• 47:42Speaker 03

  In this country, we're living a lie. We've got to get back to a point where we are who we say we are. We're either united or we're not united. It's either about we the people or it's not about we the people. As the common language of America became not English, but money.

• 48:10Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  Our language cannot be the language of money. And I, I just get, I say to myself that I do really believe this at eighty-two years old. I'm finally got my freedom. I'm free to do what I want to do, when I want to do it and how I want to do it. I'm free to, to, to, to try to, to discover my outer limits. I'm free to be who God meant for me to be. I honestly and truly believe that the last couple of years of my life, that I, I can honestly

• 48:56Speaker 03

  kind of feel what Martin Luther King said when he spoke at the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty, I'm free at last. It's the first time that in my existence on this planet, that I could authentically believe that I'm a free human being, that I can pursue my outer limits.

• 49:33Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. What changed? Why, what was the catalyst or the realization?

• 49:38Speaker 03

  The realization was that the system is built to create average people.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  You go to school, you get an average education, you get an average job, you live in an average neighborhood. Uh, you live an average amount of time and and the world is populated with average people. And I'm so glad that I live long enough that I could feel the necessity to be uncommon. In some ways, maybe I was born as one of God's, the least of his children.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  But I've been truly blessed to be on this planet for eighty two years.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  And I'll be able to die knowing that I didn't die in a societal box. That I was free enough to try to reach for my, my outer limits.

• 50:57Tim Ferriss?

  And to explore that phrase a bit, exploring your outer limits. Uh, I mean, it, it seems to imply to me both an awareness of the box that you've been put in or put yourself in. And then a willingness to try to transcend that. What does that look like? Does it look like broad reading? Does it look like uncommon action for you personally? What has exploring your outer limits looked like?

• 51:22Speaker 03

  It's all built around a fundamental question that I have to ask myself time and time again. What is it that I don't know, but I need to know? What is it that I don't know, but need to know? When I was a, a student at Donova and, uh, and I was on basketball scholarship. Our, our coach said to us one time and, and he left an indelible mark on my brain with this quote. He said, the first sign of intelligence is to admit that you don't know something.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  So I'm trying to find out what it is that I don't know, but I need to know so that I can have a relevance on the remaining time I'm here on the globe. And that's the simple process is you've got to take the fences down around because as long as people can build fences around you, they can keep you where they want you and they want you to be average. And I don't want to be average. I want to be uncommon.

• 52:41Tim Ferriss?

  Is part of, and this is a leading question, but I'm curious, is part of keeping those fences down, not applying too many labels to yourself?

• 52:55Tim Ferriss?

  I just think, I'm thinking back to the list that you gave earlier, you know, liberal, progressive, this, that, A versus B, C versus D, because I've never, I don't think I've ever heard you use any of those labels applied to yourself, at least in our, in our conversations that we've had. I don't know if that's just because of the nature of the conversations that we've had, but are there other ways that you keep the fences down?

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, because the first thing is to recognize that there is a fence.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  People don't examine, when, when someone is quick to put a label on you and, and encourage you to live in this box, the first thing you gotta real start to do is start asking, have a conversation with yourself and start asking questions. And so, to me, I'm aware of these fences and, and I, I refuse to allow someone to build a fence around me because intentionally or unintentionally, I'm about to come to a standstill because the more people

• 54:13Speaker 03

  that are in that box, the, the, the less my mobility is. And, and I, I think we also, what, the thing that I've been telling myself about, what is it that I don't know, but I need to know?

• 54:34Speaker 03

  I've come to recognize that I need to develop 21st century skills. It's kind of strange when you get to be eighty two and you start thinking about this. But it, once again, when I ask that question, how can I stay relevant? If I'm going to be relevant, I've got to be able to develop 21st century skills. And I'm going to anticipate you saying, well, coach, what are 21st century skills? I, I think you have to develop a skill set that are transferable uh, and sustainable in the 21st century.

• 55:16Speaker 03

  There, there's, there, there, there's so obvious leadership and communication and just not oral communication, but written communication, relationships. As long as we live, there's going to have to be leaderships. We're going to have to communicate. We're going to have to have relationships, problem solving, decision making, information literacy, critical thinking, oh, we go on, teamwork, analytical thinking. So what I try to do is take one of those and for six months, read as much as I can about one of them. So that I can better understand how I can equip myself.

• 55:59Speaker 03

  Because I've got, I, to take the fences down, I gotta have, I, I, I gotta either pull them down or, or, or I, or, uh, I, and I, and once I pull them down, I gotta get rid of them forever. And so, once I take those fences down, I can't, uh, pop the cork and, and think I won. All I've done is, is free up my ability of, of movement. And so now I gotta, I've gotta equip myself with these 21st century skills, particularly at eighty two years old. Because the last thing I want to be is a relic.

• 56:46Speaker 03

  And and to protect myself from becoming a relic. I got I I've got to be able to compete in the in the twenty first century. I've got to be able to compete with young people, not just old people. I need to I need to compete with young people. I need to understand young people. These young people are our future. And I feel bad for our young people because they're the ones that are going to inherit this mess. And they're the ones that are going to have to fix it. And I I I feel so bad for our our our grandchildren and children and and general.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  These young people, we're leaving a mess on. And they and they're gonna they they're gonna have to excel in these skills. Because they're the ones who are gonna have to figure out what to do with this mess that we left on their doorstep.

• 57:50Tim Ferriss?

  Well, one of the one of the things I enjoy about our interactions, George, is that you're you're a man of ideas and concepts, but you're also a man of action. You do a lot and it's it's informed action. There are millions of people right now, I'm sure probably tens, hundreds of millions, who are unsure of what to do and perhaps also afraid of doing the wrong thing. And I'd be curious to know if you have any advice for people who are feeling a need to do something but don't know what to do. Of course, we see we've seen a lot of statements that have been issued.

• 58:34Tim Ferriss?

  If you have any thoughts on statements, what form they should take, if any. I'd just love to hear your thoughts for those who feel like they should or need to do something but are unsure of what to do.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  Well, two things. One, what can one do? Just be simple. Just let it start with yourself. Start with you and and do your part. I want I'm gonna come back to this public statement thing. But what what I would like to ask, and this is is a partial answer to what can we do? I would. Like to ask each of those who are listening to this uh

• 59:22Speaker 03

  interview to take a pledge.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  I would like you to write this down and take this pledge. If you want to know what you can do is this, and the pledge is, I encourage, I'm gonna encourage each of our listeners to do this. And the pledge is, I will fully commit to being a positive change agent. A positive difference maker. And in many lives as possible. Doesn't take money. It doesn't matter what race you are. It's just a simple pledge. It's gotta start. Correcting the wrongs have to start with our behavior.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  And so I'm gonna say that again. I, I, God, if you ever wanted to do something for me, just take this pledge and live it. I will fully commit to being a positive change agent. A positive difference maker. And in, and as many lives as possible. You don't have to be rich, you know. It doesn't make any difference if you're poor. It doesn't make any difference if you're black or white. You can control this. Nobody can take this away from this. Nobody can take this commitment away from you to be a positive change agent, to be a positive difference maker, to be kind to people.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  It might not change the world.

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  But if you save one life, that one life will have a rippling effect and it'll save another life and another life and another life. And before you know it, we'll wake up one morning. And we will have made significant change in the, in the world and in this place we call America. That's what I would like to do. As you say, what can a person do? That's my answer to that. The, the public statement thing, honestly, I've kind of grown wary of corporate organizational speak. I don't know. I, I, I, in my opinion, most of it's insincere anyway, and it lacks in substance. How many of these statements are really solution based?

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  And the so-called statements to me in many ways are overt evidence of our inability to tell the truth.

• 1:01:54Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean, what do you, what do you mean by that?

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  There's a, there's a, there's a difference, Tim, between a statement and a message. See, that, that's the thing. Everybody runs around, I, I can't believe how many corporate, uh, executives and, and organizational people feel like they have to make a statement. I've had friends call and say, hey, I gotta make a statement, what should I say? And, and the ones who've asked me that, I said, the first thing is don't make a statement. Give a, make a message. Messages tell a story that, that, that resonates with the listeners. Messages are a commitment.

• 1:02:37Speaker 03

  You know, we, we, uh, ultimately, when it's all said and done, our words must be manifested in, within our behavior. Anything shorted out and we're living a lie. And, and, and I just think at some point, we can make all the statements we want, but the reality is that we have to rise to a higher moral level.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  And if, if corporations today, I don't know, me personally, I, I appreciate their, their, their paper currency. But what I really think that society needs from our corporations is their intellectual currency.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  I think history is replete with evidence that throwing money at the problem is rarely going to be the solution. Um, one of the questions I have with, with this money part is how much of it will be specifically used to enrich the lives of, of our young people and their futures? Uh, cause we're, we're leaving, leaving them a, a, a, a mess to, to, to clean up. I, I, I think that, um, what I would like to s- to, to do is to tap into, uh, the intellectual

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  currency of, of, of corporate Americans. And, and, and, and they've, they've got some of the most elite thinkers on the planet, uh, in corporations. And so can a group of corporations come together in a collaborative manner and create programs to help enrich the lives of our young people and help prepare our young people to successfully deal with this mess that we're leaving them? So can corporations create mentor programs?

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  So somebody's got to raise their hand and say, we have one. Can they create intern programs? Can they utilize their intellectual currency to help young people develop these 21st century skills? Uh, can they provide technology? And the technology tools such as laptops and computers for young people?

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  Can we teach young people how to think? God knows if there's ever something that we could do that would help young people is to teach them how to think. Stop teaching them what to think. Teach them how to think. We've got some of the greatest minds on the planet housed in these corporations. And I just think that they have a moral obligation to target the least of God's children. I think our young children out there are pregnant with possibilities

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  for greatness, but we gotta help them discover it. Tim, in my, in my lifetime, and this is not an indictment on my parents. There was never a time in my life when my mom or my dad or my grandmother ever said to me, George, when you grow up, you're gonna go to college. Hell, they never finished school. How, how hell are they gonna think that their son's, I mean, their, their child is gonna go to college? It wasn't, it, it, it, they, black people couldn't dream like that in those days. But we, we, we, we, there's so many undiscovered young folks out there.

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  They need somebody to say a simple phrase to them. I believe in you. You know how many kids have never had a human being say to them, I believe in you? Corporate America can put together all these elite thinkers, and they don't just have to say, I believe in you, but they can put the programs together that allow that, that person to believe in themselves. I will never fully buy into throwing money at it, is the answer.

• 1:07:41Tim Ferriss?

  You just made me think, George, that if I try to canvas everyone I've interviewed on this podcast, you know, close to 500 people now, I would say the, one of the commonalities would have to be that at some point, someone said, I believe in you. Maybe it wasn't in childhood, but at some point, some mentor, some father figure, or mother figure, or supporter said, I believe in you. So it raises a lot of, a lot of questions and also brings to mind a lot of possible actions for, as you said.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  And Tim, it's not sufficient to say, I believe in you. And then don't, don't let your, and then your behavior has to reflect what you've just said. I believe in you. There's depth and dimension of goodness and intellect in all of us. But Tim, until I got to Villanova, I had, it wasn't until I got to Villanova that I found myself intellectually. I didn't know who I was. I didn't even really understand how important it was to be at Villanova, to be a student and to learn.

• 1:09:05Speaker 03

  I can remember this so vividly. By the sophomore year, because when I went to Villanova, you had to wear a shirt and tie to class and you had to sit by alphabet. That's how they kept it rolling. And so I graduated with a BS in economics, but it wasn't until my sophomore year that I started to find myself intellectually. I'd hear guys say, that guy's really smart, man. You should get him to help you. And, and there would be a number of people in my classes that people would identify as being really smart. And so I would listen to them and I would observe them.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  And honestly, Tim and myself talk, there were a number of times when I said, hell, I think I'm as smart as him. And that was the beginning of me trying to discover myself intellectually. I didn't have a frame of reference. No one ever told me that I was smart.

• 1:10:09Speaker 03

  No one ever told me that, uh, the only way I ended up in college was because of basketball and the scholarship. I didn't really understand it all. And i- if there was, if I had to do it all over, I honestly believe I could have been an honest student. I didn't understand it. I didn't know that I could, that education could take me to places it did and help me be, uh, learn how to be a better human being. It took a long time. I, I, I, I, I've kind of been running from behind most of my life. A guy told me one time, if a man gets behind in a race, he must forever remain behind or run faster than the man in front. And man, I've been on the sprint for about the last forty years.

• 1:10:54Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. It's an incredible life story. I mean, I, I don't know how you have managed, uh, to, to cram so much into your lifetime, which granted is eighty-two years thus far, but it's still, you know, a blink of, a blink of the eye in some respects. It's, it's really just incredible. And it, and for, for those people who are, uh, listening, who are, say, parents of, uh, kids in difficult circumstances, uh, maybe they themselves don't have many resources. Aside from the, I believe in you and behavior to support that, besides the,

• 1:11:34Tim Ferriss?

  the pledge, uh, which you mentioned earlier about being a positive change agent and positive difference maker, uh, would you have any advice for those, for those parents, for people who are trying to raise their kids and enable them in the greatest way possible?

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  Um, I, I think it, it, it's, it's so difficult to be a parent today because at one time I used to think it was a black problem, but today I think it's a societal problem. We live in a society of the day where most of the young people are raised in a single parent household. My, uh, nine years at USC, I only coached two black players who came from a dual-parent household. So the first issue is the parent.

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  And when we say is usually gonna be the mother because of our judicial system, the courts usually uh award the child to the mother. And so those mothers are true so-called American heroes. They work two and three jobs. Most parents will do things for their children they would never do for themselves. And so it's such an enormous challenge now to raise a child. I think that you just have to try as hard as you can to provide

• 1:13:16Speaker 03

  uh the best for your children and to teach them a sustainable value system of right and wrong, uh of perseverance. I don't know. I I I mean, I don't know if I'm equipped to say because uh I I'm still trying to raise myself.

• 1:13:36Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. What are your your hopes for what could come of this turbulent time? These turbulent times, I should say, certainly, that are really sort of exhibiting and showing to us ruptures that have existed for a long time. Uh what are some of your hopes for what can come out of this? And what are some of your fears of what might come out of this, if you have any?

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  My hope is that we will be who we say we are. All of us that if we are the United States of America, then we need to start to live it and not continue to live a life. That uh is my hope. Uh as we we perceive that, as I said earlier in the conversation, we're the problem and we're the solution.

• 1:14:37Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. Yeah, we are the problem and we are the solution. Well, George, I want to be respectful of your time. We've covered a lot. I'm not in any rush. I can continue to go as long as you would like to go. But is there anything else you would like to say or share at this point?

• 1:14:56Speaker 03

  No, I think we've touched a lot of the sensitive nerves and that when we conclude, I would just like to conclude the same way we started. But maybe you, there's some things that you think merit some discussion. I'm open to it.

• 1:15:14Tim Ferriss?

  I think we've covered a lot of ground. I think we've, and by we, I mean you. I think you have offered some, some direction, a lot of recommendation. You've offered resources, like tell me who you are. Of course, we'll link to all of these things. You mentioned Robert Greenleaf and servant leadership. As far as resources go, many different takeaways that people can, I think, apply or at the very least think about. But as you mentioned, if we put words into our heads or out into the world, what matters is the behavior that follows those and the practice like you have on your, on your bathroom

• 1:15:57Tim Ferriss?

  mirror of self-leadership and self-discipline, since you need to lead yourself before you can hope to lead any type of group. And I think we're at a good place where we could, we could end the way we started for now.

• 1:16:13Speaker 03

  So I would just like to conclude with the way I started with the prayer, and my prayer is, dear God, please help us unite as a nation. Please help us be who we say we are. A united States of America, amen.

• 1:16:37Tim Ferriss?

  Amen.

• 1:16:40Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you so much for taking the time to share your, the breadth and richness of your life experience, and also the insights that you've come to after 82 years on this planet. I really appreciate you taking the time, George.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  Thank you, Tim, and I appreciate the opportunity, and more importantly, I appreciate the friendship.

• 1:17:02Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you so much. And you are such a positive change agent. And I think, as you said, if you save one life, that has ripple effects. I think your positive impact on so many people has a real incredible ripple effect. So I would just say, please keep doing what you're doing. I really appreciate you.

• 1:17:25Speaker 03

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:17:26Tim Ferriss?

  And to everybody listening, we will have links to everything that we discussed in the show notes. And you can find that, as always, at tim.blog/podcast and simply search for George's name. And in fact, what we'll do is create a short link, which will just be tim.blog/George, and that will take us all to the resources specifically for this episode. And until next time, thank you for tuning in. Be kind, be safe, and always strive to be the person you say you are. Thank you. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number

• 1:18:07Tim Ferriss?

  one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found, or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you

• 1:18:50Tim Ferriss?

  head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.