#260: Setting Goals, Making Money, and Overcoming Tough Times -- Phil Hellmuth

Phil Hellmuth (@phil_hellmuth https://twitter.com/phil_hellmuth) is an American professional poker player who has won a record fourteen World Series of Poker bracelets. He is the winner of the Main Event of the 1989 World Series of Poker (WSOP) and the Main Event of the 2012 World Series of Poker Europe (WSOPE), and he is a 2007 inductee of the WSOP's Poker Hall of Fame. Hellmuth is also known for his temperamental "poker brat" personality -- reflected in his new book, Poker Brat: Phil Hellmuth's Autobiography http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1909457744/offsitoftimfe-20. This episode comes from my new television show Fear(less) https://tim.blog/fearless, where I interview world-class performers about how they've overcome doubt, conquered fear, and made their toughest decisions. You can watch the entire first episode with illusionist David Blaine for free at att.net/fearless http://att.net/fearless. (To watch all episodes, please visit DIRECTV NOW http://directvnow.com/). We recorded three hours of material and only one hour was used for the TV show. This podcast episode is almost entirely new content that didn't appear on TV. In this conversation, we examine Phil's morning routine, the importance of goals and blessings, how he became the youngest person to win the World Series of Poker, his prep for high-stakes games, what it takes to compete at the highest level, and much, much more. Enjoy! Show notes and links for this episode can be found at tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast. This podcast is brought to you by MVMT https://www. MVMTwatches.com/tim. The founders are two college dropouts who wanted to wear fancy watches, but couldn't afford them -- so they decided to scratch their own itch and build a company around high-quality but affordable watches in 2013. They've gone from start-up to more than one million watches sold across 160 countries in just a few years -- an awesome success story that makes sense when you check out the product. MVMT offers classic designs, quality construction, and many different modern styles, so you can pick one that suits you. Get 15 percent off your entire purchase with free shipping (and free returns if you're dissatisfied for any reason) by visiting MVMTwatches.com/tim https://www. MVMTwatches.com/tim! This podcast is also brought to you by Mizzen + Main http://tim.blog/shirts. These are the only "dress" shirts I now travel with -- fancy enough for important dinners but made from athletic, sweat-wicking material http://tim.blog/shirts. No more ironing, no more steaming, no more hassle. They are a personal favorite of NFL phenom J. J. Watt, alongside many professional athletes. Click here for the exact shirts I wear most often http://tim.blog/shirts. Don't forget to use the code "TIMFERRISS" at checkout for $50 off when you purchase three or more shirts. http://tim.blog/shirts

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by MVMT Watches. That is spelled M-V-M-T. MVMT Watches. I first became aware of this company back in 2014 when they were a brand, brand new baby company because they won first place in Shopify's Build a Business competition. The founders are two college dropouts who wanted to wear fancy watches, but had one wee little problem. They couldn't afford fancy watches, so they decided to scratch their own itch. Since then, their high-quality, affordable watches have gone from startup to more than 1 million watches sold across 160 countries. It's an awesome success story, and when you check out the product, you'll know why. They offer classic design, quality construction, and many different modern styles, so you can really pick one

• 1:08Tim Ferriss?

  that suits you. You might want to start one. I would suggest probably appeal to a lot of folks out. There's the classic black silver. So, search "classic black silver." The guys at MVMT have a great offer. For listeners of this podcast, they're offering 15% off your entire purchase with free shipping and free returns if you're dissatisfied for any reason, and they are very, very famous for their customer support. Just visit MVMTWatches.com/Tim. That's M-V-M-T watches.com/Tim.

• 1:44Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen & Main. Many of you longtime listeners know how I feel about Mizzen & Main. They make the most comfortable dress shirts in the world, quite possibly. They use advanced performance fabrics, which provide stretch and comfort, but that's not the real selling point to me. That's all great. It's all really good, but they are the only dress shirts, so to speak, that I travel with. Because you don't have to iron them. No more steaming, no more headache. I can just bunch them up and throw them in a bag, pull them out, and no one will be the wiser. They're fancy enough for important dinners, but made from athletic sweat-wicking material. So they're all-purpose.

• 2:25Tim Ferriss?

  And hundreds of pro athletes love these shirts, including NFL All-Pro J.J. Watt. And last time these guys were on the show, they sold out of every item they featured, every single SKU. So if you're interested in getting a shirt, you might want to check them out. On the faster side, just go to tim.blog/shirts and you can receive $50 off when you purchase three or more shirts. So check it out. tim.blog/shirts. Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, whether they come from the worlds of business, chess, military, sports, you name it.

• 3:09Tim Ferriss?

  In this case, poker. This episode of the podcast features Phil Hellmuth, @phil_helmuth, H-E-L-L-M-U-T-H, who has won more World Series of Poker bracelets than any other person in history. I'm not drunk, I'm high on life. This interview comes from my television show, Fearless, fear in parentheses, less, because the objective is to learn to fear less, not be fearless, in which I interview world-class performers onstage about how they've overcome doubt, conquered fear, and made their toughest decisions. You can watch the entire first episode with illusionist David Blaine for free at att.net/fearless,

• 3:54Tim Ferriss?

  so you can check that out. And to watch all episodes, just visit directv.com or check out your account on DirecTV. So directv.com, that is with one T, D-I-R-E-C-T-V.com. We recorded about three hours of material when Phil and I sat down, and only one hour was used for the TV show. That means this podcast is almost entirely Really new content that did not appear in the television episode. In this conversation, we explore many things, including Phil's morning routine, the importance of goals and blessings, how he became the youngest person to win the World Series of Poker, his prep for the high stakes games in which he plays,

• 4:37Tim Ferriss?

  what it takes to compete at the highest level, and much, much more. Also, since we recorded the show, Phil published his autobiography, Poker Brat, well titled, you can check that out. So with all of that said, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Phil Hellmuth, and let's get started right meow. Enjoy.

• 5:01Tim Ferriss?

  Welcome to Fearless. I'm your host, Tim Ferriss, and on this stage, we'll be deconstructing world-class performers of all types to uncover and distill the specific tactics they've used to overcome doubt, tackle their hardest decisions, and ultimately succeed on their own terms. So let's do a show of hands. How many people here think they can tell when someone is lying?

• 5:21Tim Ferriss?

  About 50%. Now, how many of you think you can lie and not get caught? About 30. How many of you who raised your hands would be willing to bet your entire life savings on being able to do that? All right, six or seven. Well, for the last 30 years, my guest tonight has made his living reading behavior, analyzing the odds, and gambling for his future. In 1989, he became the youngest main event champion at the World Series of Poker, and he holds the world record for most event wins at 14, and he's still going. Please welcome author, entrepreneur, and professional poker player, Phil Hellmuth.

• 6:05Tim Ferriss?

  I can always tell, I have a lot of friends who watch poker, and I'm an avid fan, but not a competent player. So we're not going to be at the same table anytime unless I'm a spectator. But I can always tell when you're on because of the beeping. It draws me into the room. The good news is, this isn't really family programming. So no bleeps in this conversation if it all comes out. I want to talk a little bit. About the Scrabble.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Are you trying to encourage me to swear?

• 6:32Tim Ferriss?

  You know, this is my, I'm from Long Island. It might come out on my part. I do drop F-bombs if I get wound up. So, uh, yeah, I guess that's a light nudge, but.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Swearing, swearing's part of the lexicon now and things have changed so much, you know. You know, and so I do probably swear more than I should even when I'm on the microphone doing events, you know, and someone will be like, there's always one or two people of the couple hundred at the event that are offended. They usually don't say anything, but.

• 6:59Tim Ferriss?

  That's pretty good. I mean, that's a pretty, pretty good percentage. I mean, that's, that's a good win.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Like, I have a goal sheet on my mirror. And I have a blessing sheet on my mirror. So at the morning, when I'm brushing my teeth and not paying attention, I see what my lifetime goals are, or my goals for that year. And then I also see my blessings. So I leave hopefully happy because I've seen the blessings and focus because I know what my goals are. So for me, that's, you know, some of these.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  So let me just wrap this up because this is kind of fun. So the other day.

• 7:35Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not in any rush. We have all the time in the world.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Well, I was at Starbucks, uh, three or four months ago and someone came up to me and I was really tired. It was a Sunday morning and I hadn't slept well. And someone came up to me that doesn't know me that well or whatever, but I'm polite and I smiled and I shook his hand or whatever. And just wanted to get my coffee and get out of there. And then his wife pops up and she's just glowing. And she's like, Phil, I gotta tell you, I was at your speech. I put my goals up on my mirror and I accomplished them with, within two months. And she was glowing. And I thought, wow, I had a profound influence on her life. And it just made me feel like, I mean, I know as a professional poker player, at the

• 8:22Speaker 02

  top of the game, I do things no one else does in the game. And I know that I motivate. I've known, I've known this since maybe 2002.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Where, where someone came up to me and they said, Phil, I was in a coma. And I, and I woke up because I imagine playing you heads up at poker.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  And this guy sat down in the audience when I was playing Heads Up for a World Championship. And my wife said, "He sat down and you won 11 hands in a row." And she said, "There's something weird here." And so from that moment on, way back in 2002, I realized that I'm motivating, you know, that I'm inspirational to people. Not the stuff that you see on television, although that's kind of fun to watch. Me beeping and whatever. But me performing at the top of what I do. You know, I mean, you watch some great athletes do things no other great athletes can do. I like watching Tiger Woods at his prime. I like watching Michael Jordan.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  I'm not as big as those guys, but in my industry, it's kind of fun to see, wow, how did Phil know to fold this or move in with this? And so, yeah, I think when you're achieving the most I can achieve, and I'm playing poker like no one else has ever seen, I think that that can be inspirational for, you know, millions of people that watch it.

• 9:55Tim Ferriss?

  So in that period when you were struggling, did you have any particular coping mechanisms or strategies that you used, things to occupy your time that helped you get through that?

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely, a big coping mechanism for me, and this applied itself in poker too. Because when you're young in poker, you're usually reckless. So I told you I won the main event, $750,000 for first, right? This is 1989, man. So, you know, and I'd been taking way too many chances. And so at that point, from there, yes, I was smart. I bought a penthouse condominium, you know, and paid cash for it. Yes, I put aside money for taxes. But the other $300,000 I lost.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  So yeah, I ended up with, I mean, I bought a couple of cars. So beautiful cars, penthouse condominium, but I'm struggling to pay $800 a month condo fees. It's like a year later. And so the coping mechanism there is rather than, it's not that I'm avoiding the present, it's that you're like, this is a moment where there's a lot of rain. So number one, I'm going to develop strategies for the next time I have money. My money management system has to be really solid. And I have to actually apply it and use it. That's number one. Number two, I would, I would look forward and I'd say, all right, what does it look like in two years? It looks amazing in two years.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  And so in the depths of dealing with some of the worst times, I would take advantage of that down period, of that being trodden down, to be more focused. All right, how did this happen? How can I play poker better? How can I money manage? Money management's more important than playing poker.

• 11:44Tim Ferriss?

  For a poker player?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you can ask me about that later, but that's a very interesting topic.

• 11:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  But to go with it, you know, so that was, those are the, those are the kind of the things I would use. Vince Vaughn was talking about this last night. You know, he told, he taught me something that I hadn't thought about much. When someone's looking at a flop, they usually haven't hit it. They're trying to figure out, do I have anything?

• 12:09Tim Ferriss?

  The flop meaning when the dealer puts the card?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  When the first three cards come out, yes. But you have to pay attention to all that tells a story.

• 12:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Vince was saying if they look at it for a long time, they're trying to figure out what to make of their hand, whereas if they look at it quickly, then they either have nothing or we were talking about potentially a strong position.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  That was a great observation on his part. It made me realize how smart he is. Increased my respect factor for him because he, because he got it. And pointed out something that I hadn't been paying attention to recently. But everything adds up. It's a picture, you know? And how much are they betting? And, and when the next card comes off, now there's four in the middle, how much are they betting? And when the fifth card comes up, how much are they betting? Are they hesitating because they think I have to bluff all in here and I have to man up to do it? And then when they bluff, do they put it in right away or do they wait? You know, and then people try to use things to throw you off. Sure. So you have to decipher the whole picture. So I trust my instincts.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  And when I'm on, I look, I look great. Yeah. But I'm just not on every day. So, you know, we filmed so much poker. Yeah. There's days where I'm off. And then a million of the kids watch it and they say, Phil sucks at poker, Phil sucks at poker, Phil sucks at poker. I hear that, I've heard that so often in my life. Uh, that I'm not good at poker. It's crazy to me. It's because they watch my worst moments. And I think, I wonder if I watched this guy who's criticizing me, if I watched all of his worst moments. Yeah. You know. The blueprint reel for somebody else, probably. So you were talking about, you know, when you're at your best. And by the way. Yeah. That can get to me. People, you know, I mean, people were telling me I wasn't good at poker coming into,

• 13:57Speaker 02

  I, the game had passed me by coming into 2010. Um, uh, I sucked at poker. You know, uh, uh, you know, because I hadn't done anything in a couple of years. And I mean, it, the internet forums filled with how bad I was at poker. Because I'm a big target. Yeah. And because I hadn't done anything lately. And that's fair criticism. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, 2011 came and I had, you know, three second place finishes. And everybody's like, wow. And then 2012 came and I won two bracelets. And everybody's like, oh my God. But I swear, I'll never forget this. 2011. Um.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  They were talking about how, how I was like, I'd fallen out of the top 500 in poker, how I sucked at the game.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Exactly three weeks later, I had two second place finishes. And they were talking about how I was the greatest. I was just like, alright, what changed?

• 14:56Tim Ferriss?

  I remember I was given some advice early on when I was writing, because I was getting really thrown for a loop with criticisms. I remember the first time I got a negative Amazon review, the very first time.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Bumped you out?

• 15:08Tim Ferriss?

  And I wrote this really logic, logical compassionate reply. This like long, I spent hours on this thing. And the guy replied like, "Yeah, go fuck yourself." And I was like, "Oh, the humanity, why won't you listen, internet?" And somebody said to me, "You're never as bad as they say you are, and you're never as good as they say you are either." And I was like, "Alright, that's funny."

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Did you then stop reading reviews?

• 15:32Tim Ferriss?

  I stopped reading most of them. On Amazon and YouTube and a few places where it's like always devolves to like Hitler after like two pages. You're like, "How did we get to Hitler?" Like, it's a kitten video. But what I wanted to ask you before I get too far into the rails...

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Wait, so you just kind of gave up? Like, I stopped looking at poker forums in 2001? I just stopped looking?

• 15:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, I think it's like you don't, it's, there's how to deal with something, and then there's choosing not to, like strategically choosing not to deal with it. So sometimes it's easier to not go where it's slippery if you don't want to slip, right? So it's just like with temptation, with the quality problem, but like beautiful, smart women kind of swarming around when you're in Vegas or something like that. Similarly, it's like, well, I don't want to have to waste the energy to manage my response to something that isn't going to be productive anyway. Because the good stuff is just going to make my head inflate, and the bad stuff isn't going to be probably even accurate, or it's going to make me feel terrible. So what's the outcome that I'm looking for? But what I wanted to ask you, because...

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Well, my whole life, to stay with that a second. My whole life has been, you know, I would get too inflated by the good stuff. My ego gets all pumped up.

• 16:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  And I'd get too devastated by the bad stuff, you know what I mean? And I look back, and I was very defensive in a lot of the videos that you may or may not show. But a lot of these videos, I'm super defensive until 2011, 2012. But I'm like, "Wait a minute, I'm the all-time champion. I have all the records, why am I so defensive?"

• 16:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  And I think that's part of that defensiveness, that that's part of, maybe ties in. I want to be... I want to be great.

• 17:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  And I want everybody to think I'm great.

• 17:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  At games.

• 17:11Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Specifically poker. And I think that may drive me.

• 17:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  I'm trying to get away from being defensive.

• 17:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. It's tough. I'm pretty defensive too. I mean, I remember I-

• 17:23Speaker 02

  I read a tweet today and I was like, "What?"

• 17:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. On Twitter. Twitter. I remember Stephen Fry opted out, a well-known comedian actor, of being on Twitter. And he said, "It's like too many people have peed in the pool." He's like, "I'm out of here." Taking a break from Twitter. Yeah, gross, but useful metaphor. Anyway, I want to talk about

• 17:44Tim Ferriss?

  one of the times maybe you weren't at your best. You've lost all this money, just to go back to where we were in your timeline. And I'd read about you setting a number of goals, maybe in a taxicab? Am I making this up? There were a few goals. One was World Series of Poker, I believe.

• 18:04Tim Ferriss?

  If this is fiction, let me know. Second was-

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, I've got it. I've got it from here.

• 18:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  So, I mean, this was probably, I was 21, I guess. Maybe 22, something like that. And I had this kind of like, one of these weird touchpoints where something amazing happens to me. Weird, right? So I'm playing poker in Madison, Wisconsin. I wake up and it's foggy and it's, you know, and there's snow on the ground. And I'm like, you know, and I'm looking at a $2 and $4 limit game, but I have $20,000. You go to that game, you might make $200, right? So, but why do I, what am I doing, you know? And so I go over there and I'm bored and I don't want to- And there's no golf courses open and I can't find anything kind of fun to do.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  And so, two of the guys from the game, I say, "Hey, let's go have a drink." So, I've never been a big drug guy, but I smoke pot. And then we go to the bar and I'm having a drink. And they're playing pool for $10 or $20 a game. And it's like, 1:00 in the afternoon.

• 19:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  And I'm having a drink and I've smoked pot. And I'm suddenly like, and they're arguing about $20 at the pool table. And I'm like, "What the fuck am I doing with my life?" You know? And I'm like, I gotta get out of here. Yeah. So I go and I, and I'll never forget, I open this door. Right? And boom, like, the sun is out now. And it's bouncing off the snow and it's just like, it's like a metaphor for what happened at that moment. Was the reality of what happened at that moment. I opened the door and I saw all the light. Right? Just, and it's coming at me and it's bouncing off everything and I've been in some dingy bar. And I'm just like, wow, what is this?

• 19:57Speaker 02

  And I call for a taxi. I would never drive when I'm doing something silly like that. Yeah. I get back to my apartment. And I'm like, what are you doing with your life? And the first thing I do, I have all this positive momentum and all this energy. And I'm like, this is my lifetime goals. I'm going to win the main event, the World Series of Poker. If I'm gonna be a poker player, I'm gonna be the best in the world. I'm gonna meet and marry an amazing woman. I'm gonna buy a beautiful house. I'm gonna buy a beautiful car. And maybe one or two, I'm gonna write a New York Times bestselling book. Right? So I said, these are my lifetime goals, like six of them. And then, at all this positive momentum and all this energy. And I'm like, wow.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  I, in order to get there, how am I gonna do it? Well, I think of it as a pyramid. First, I have to be able to not smoke pot, not become an alcoholic.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Manage my money. All these little things on the bottom row of the pyramid, and then there's the next row of the pyramid. Exercise, eating healthy, all this stuff. And the next row, make sure that you're studying the game. All the way to the top, so I designed a pyramid in that moment. Just this creative breakthrough I'm having, right? And, and then I'm like, well, actually, I love the concept of a pyramid and in poker, the money flows up. So I designed that pyramid in that moment. I'm just writing for hours like a madman. And at the bottom of the pyramid is like all the small stakes games that might happen at a bar. And then all the home games. And then some of the games in Vegas and some of the big games in LA. All the money flows up.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  All the people that have success here come to this level. They dump off the money or they go up. Most dump off the money. So the money flows all the way up. So if I want to be, if I want to win millions or decades of millions playing poker, I have to be up here at the top as a player. And I have to use this pyramid and make sure that I check all the boxes on all these blocks to get there. Right? And I came up with the concept. I'm overwhelming people.

• 22:08Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  I have two pyramids and a lifetime goal list. And then I decided it's important to have something on my bathroom mirror, which we talked about a little bit already.

• 22:17Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  And so that concept came that day. So all this amazing positive momentum. But to me, that was one of the most, I'm calling that in my autobiography Poker Brad. I'm saying that chapter is called "I Can See The Light." I just talk about that. And then I'm devising all these money management strategies.

• 22:34Tim Ferriss?

  What were some of your?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  That was a profound moment for me in my life.

• 22:38Tim Ferriss?

  What were some of your, because this is, this is, I think, a really critical component. As you alluded to earlier, what were some of those money management strategies?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Oh, before, before we, I'll come to that. But before I say, the amazing thing was with all those goals.

• 22:53Tim Ferriss?

  The respect is killing me. No, no, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  With all those goals, I looked like a year later. My wife found the list. And maybe two years later, and I'd knocked off five of those lifetime goals already. I'd won the main event. I'd met. Kathy.

• 23:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  You know, I bought this beautiful condominium. I, you know, I bought some beautiful cars. And so, just, it was amazing how many boxes I checked. Now, the bestselling book, I didn't know this in 04 when I put out Play Poker Like the Pros. I didn't know that this would be the one. I just saw the poker wave coming and I put a how-to book out there. Wrote it myself. We talked about this last night. It took two months, 1,500 words a day. Put it out there. Some guy holds it up on ESPN. He'd played a seven-card low tournament. Seven-card low. He'd never played before.

• 23:50Tim Ferriss?

  What does that mean? What's a seven-card low tournament?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Uh, so, I mean, basically, the World Series of Poker has a seven-card stud tournament, a Hold'em tournament, Omaha, all these different variations of poker. He's playing in a seven-card low. He said, "I read Phil Hellmuth's book."

• 24:04Tim Ferriss?

  And he holds it up?

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Holds it up on ESPN. "I read Phil Hellmuth's book and I cashed for $17,000." Not a million.

• 24:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Not 2 million.

• 24:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  $17,000.

• 24:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Boom. My book hits the bestseller list.

• 24:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  So, you know, that's a lifetime goal. So, I remember Harper Collins calls me. They somehow, I guess we had cellphones by then. Yeah, so they, they called me and they said, "Where are you, yeah, where are you staying?" And I'm like, I'm at the, I'm at the Lowe's Hotel. And they said, "Okay, your book just hit the New York Times Bestseller List. We just sent a bottle of Dom to your room." And I'm like, and it was a how-to list. So, I just walked around high for weeks because that was one of the last goals that I had to accomplish. Yeah, yeah.

• 24:56Tim Ferriss?

  And there's so many directions we could go, but I'm gonna go back to the wealth.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Money management?

• 25:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, sir. So, at that time, because this is, this is a, a critical survival skill, it seems like. I mean, foundational for...

• 25:09Speaker 02

  I'm glad you came back to this because I think the people out there should know this.

• 25:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  What's more important? Great poker skills or great money management?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Money management. I'll tell you why. If you have a guy that has poker skills, let's do a diagram here. Poker skills of six, of eighty, let's say poker skills of ninety, okay, and you have a guy of poker skills of eighty, but the guy with eighty manages money better, he's gonna have a much more comfortable life. He's gonna win his money, he's gonna sit down in the smart games at the right time with the right amount of money, and he's just gonna flow along, he's gonna pay all of his bills, it's gonna look boring, some of the outsiders can say, "Oh, you're too conservative." But meanwhile, look at the guy who is ninety, alright, but no money management skills. Loses all his money in one night. Now he has to borrow money from his friends, loses that too.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Then he gets staked, right? That means someone is bankrolling. Someone bankrolls him, but he has so much skill that he hits for five hundred thousand in a tournament. Okay, but his backer gets two hundred and fifty thousand, but still, now he has two hundred and fifty thousand. Now he's back in action, you know, and he has a couple of successful months, runs it up to four hundred thousand. But then over a series of two weeks, loses the whole four hundred thousand, borrows from all of his friends again because he paid him back last time, this time he borrows more, gets staked again, that, he can't pay his bills, that's a miserable, that's a tough existence. And so, that's why money management is more important than poker skills. Now how specifically?

• 26:46Speaker 02

  By running, I remember, I remember a story where my wife thought I was a madman. It was nineteen ninety-seven. She thought I was a madman. I'm wondering how many stories you have like that, but let's, let's, let's start with this one. So, I remember saying, "As soon as I'm worth a million dollars, I'm gonna get staked." That meant, based on what my house was worth, on stocks, all the stuff that I had in my life. And so I determined I hit the million dollar mark. This is in assets? Yeah, in assets. Call it nineteen ninety-seven. Man, I was on the way down. And I was like, "Alright, I'm getting staked."

• 27:25Speaker 02

  I'm gonna have Ted Forrest stake me. You know, because people were lining up to stake me. I had pretty good results. And so, I'm gonna have Ted Forrest stake me. And I was celebrating, "Honey, I'm getting staked." But I wasn't celebrating the fact I was getting staked. I was celebrating the fact that I could hit a million dollars in net worth and get staked. No one in history had done that to that point that I have ever heard of. Everybody else would go, "Hey, let's get $200,000 from the house." "Let's sell a car. Let's sell some stocks." Not me. So I was celebrating. And my wife, I just remember in a hotel in San Francisco, I was all like, "Yes." You know, and my wife just was staring at me like with daggers. Like, "What's wrong with you? You're getting staked and you're celebrating."

• 28:08Speaker 02

  But that wasn't it. The point was, I was gonna draw this line in the sand, and I did it. And I got staked for the next three or four or five years. Until 2001. And Ted Forrest was great. Like, if I had money due, if my bills were a lot less than if I had $5,000 a month in bills or $7,000 or whatever it was. He would just like press a button and send me the money. And I was getting staked and I had no worries. I played less. I spent more time with my family at that point. And then all of a sudden, 2001, I won $500,000 in tournaments quickly. And Ted was entitled to like 400 of it. Maybe I won, yeah, 400 of it or whatever.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  And I was more than happy. He had faith in me and he made a bunch of money because of me, and that was great. But that's what discipline it takes to have great money management. And now, today, I have a system where I only risk $10,000 a day. What I'm playing.

• 29:16Tim Ferriss?

  You have to look at the percentage. I know.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Look at the percentage. Look at the percentage. $10,000 is not a lot.

• 29:22Tim Ferriss?

  So kids only risk $10,000 a day. No. It's a percentage.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  I'm proud of that, because actually if I could translate to people at home, I don't know what that would be for someone at home. Take a guess.

• 29:36Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, now I have to take a guess at your net worth. I don't know.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Forget net worth.

• 29:40Tim Ferriss?

  Or liquid assets. Yeah, I would say it... It's something that you can comfortably lose and not have it materially affect you.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Correct, correct, correct. And I just figured, and so for me, that was a big step. I implemented this five years ago. And it's been super successful for me because 10,000 doesn't last too long in the games I play in, right? But I can't always tell when I've lost 10, whether I'm... The reason I implemented it, I can't always tell if I'm playing poorly or if I'm just getting unlucky. There's always, there's always mystery there, mystery surrounding how good you're playing. And so I just decided, like, for me, it's been a great system. If I lose it, I'm like, alright, I can't do anything. I can't play for 24 hours or whatever till I wake up. Alright, well, I might as well go to the movie. I might sleep a couple of times, a couple of shifts, watch some movies in the room, chill, and show up fresh

• 30:32Speaker 02

  the next day. And, and there's, I don't want to lose 10 today. I just did it yesterday. So you come up like, ready to play, and you've thought about, did I do everything right? So I mean, that's, that's been a good system for me for the last five or six years.

• 30:48Tim Ferriss?

  How would you have reacted had you not won?

• 30:54Speaker 02

  I think it would have been devastating, but I would have still had 350, 400,000. You have to understand, at that point, I was already, there were four majors per year. And then there were like, nine World Series. So that year, there were, say, 11 World Series of Poker Championships. And then there were like, three other ones you really wanted to win, which I considered majors. And one of them was the Bicycle Club Main Event. And I won that one in 1988, in August. So I'd already won one of the majors and was all over the poker press. And so to win that was just kinda like, you know, that, that was the greatest moment, maybe the greatest moment in my poker career, just to win that. It's nice to back it up.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Thirteen more times.

• 31:42Tim Ferriss?

  So, speaking of backing it up, at what point before 1989, so I know we're doing a little memento style, like chronologically fragmented approach here, but bear with me, the, I don't know why I keep looking at you, you look like, you look like, very pensive. The question was, which I appreciate, it's like thinking hard, the question is, when did Johnny show you his hand? This is what I've read, maybe this is also just myth, and you saw something, or at least you told him you saw something.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Well, interesting hand, the interesting thing about this, this is more for poker people, I'll try to, I'll try to make it so everybody can understand. So, the blinds were five and 10,000 when we were heads up, and first thing I had whispered to Johnny Chan, we played 32 minutes, I had whispered at the beginning, "You're gonna have to play perfect and get lucky to beat me." Now, if the cameras had been working in those days, that's one that would have been played a lot, and people would have said, "Boy, that kid's cocky." But I wish we'd, just so Chan could hear, and exactly four hands before, I had had the ace seven of diamonds, I still remember, and I opened for 35,000. So you have to think

• 32:53Speaker 02

  in terms of how much money you're raising, okay? So, that's three and a half times the big blind, that's how they look at it these days, a 3.5's pretty big. But then Chan called the 35 and raised 130,000 more, almost twice the size of the pot. These are unheard of big numbers. And a mental note went off, I said, "I'm not gonna play with him this hand." But he's stepping on the aggression now. I can see he's putting a lot of money, he's become very aggressive. "I'm gonna fold this." I don't like folding it, because everybody else in the world back then would put a lot of money in with any ace, especially ace seven suited. Said, "I'm gonna fold this." But I noticed he's changed his style, and

• 33:36Speaker 02

  my mind was just completely encompassed in how am I gonna win this. Exactly four hands later, I looked at two black nines, and it was like the script was already written. "I'm gonna open for 35,000, he's gonna raise 130,000, and I'm gonna just pile in 700,000."

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Just boom, that quick. And so it was like, sometimes scripts are written from hands, and so I did that, he did it, I waited, I didn't want to give anything away, I didn't want to show any excitement, didn't want to do anything that would change him from doing what he was gonna do. He re-raised 130,000, the minute those chips hit the pot, I said, "I'm all in." That's like, he started the hand with 600,000, boom, I'm raising all your chips right back on you. And it was two black nines, a pretty strong hand. And now, he started studying and thinking, and I thought to myself, if he had ace-king or ace-queen or ace-jack or ace-10, he would've put the money in already.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  And those hands are very close, like maybe I'm a 12 to 10, 13 to 10 favorite. I don't want to play a pot where I'm only 12 to 10 or 13 to 10, I don't want to leave it to chance. I also thought that he would call with any pair above 10s instantly. So at that point, I'm thinking, wow, what does he have? Do I want him to call or not? And I'd been around poker long enough where I didn't want to influence the action by saying, by acting strong or acting weak. I said, "Just let things play out and see where it lands." But if he had king-queen, I didn't want him to call, I'm only a small favorite. When he had the ace-seven of spades, I was kinda surprised. Also, he would've called right away with eights or sevens, which is a great position for me. When he had ace-seven of spades, I was kinda surprised, it was a little weaker, and I think

• 35:20Speaker 02

  he decided, "This kid is tough." He and I had faced off in the 1988 World Series, he'd seen me, we'd faced off in August at the tournament I won, when I won the major at the Bicycle Club that I just mentioned. And so he knew that I was there. He'd even come out in Esquire magazine in January and said, "This kid is gonna win the main event as soon as he learns to tuck it in a little bit." That was more fuel for my fire, reading myself in Esquire magazine, that was a big thing, man. Back then, you know, I mean, nobody talked about poker. And so, I just, and so when he called with ace-seven of spades, I was kinda surprised, but again, I thought, "All right, he's gonna find a way to outdraw me." I mean, it's just like, it's not that I felt the negativity, it's more like, you have

• 36:05Speaker 02

  to be prepared for him to hit it, he's been lucky, you've watched him get lucky. And so, I mean, when that six of spades hit, I was, you know, I was... Arms in the air. Heaven. I was gonna tell you about the question that Antonio asked me that I told you about last night. Let's jump into it.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Another subject switch for Phil.

• 36:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Get used to it.

• 36:31Tim Ferriss?

  Antonio is a mutual friend, very, very savvy investor and entrepreneur.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  We can say his last name, right?

• 36:36Tim Ferriss?

  Sure, Antonio Gracias.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Antonio Gracias, amazing guy, he's on the board of Tesla, SpaceX. Really great friends with Elon Musk.

• 36:43Tim Ferriss?

  That's how we met originally?

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, we met at an Elon Musk party. How lucky were we to be there?

• 36:50Tim Ferriss?

  It was like, how did they lose bracelets? And we ended up with like, I don't know. Anyway, well, especially me, this guy, I mean, come on, 14 bracelets, okay, fine.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it was pretty amazing to be there. But anyway, so, you know, Antonio Gracias, last year my ego was flying out of control. I won a bracelet, and then for three months straight, I was losing. Maybe 10 sessions, I've never lost more than three sessions that I can remember for years. Lost 10 sessions in a row, my ego's flying out of control, right? I'm more tempted than ever by these beautiful, smart women, you know? And so I'm treading on this ego path, and I'm having fun every day. Just popping from, I'm doing events in New York, Chicago appearances.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Just like, I just feel like, I just feel like, I felt like I was attracting everybody. And I'm just having a blast with it, you know? And I'm in the Hamptons, you know, and just all this fun stuff is happening. And so, it's leading to a little bit of a car wreck for me. And then Antonio Gracias asked me, he said, "Phil, how many bracelets would you have without your wife?" And I wanted to answer selfishly, "Well, I might have more because I'd play more tournaments." But I knew that wasn't true.

• 38:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  And I was like...

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Nine? He said you have fourteen. Nine? You really think you'd have that many without her? And I thought, wow.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Maybe seven? And the minute that that connected with me, this egotistical guy walking around, not mistreating anybody, nice to everybody, I've learned that. You know? Respect everybody, I've learned that. But still, flying high in his own, like, jet stream, you know? Just kind of like, thump. Boom. And a week later,

• 38:53Speaker 02

  my iPhone picture was... I had two iPhone pictures. One on the outside, which was Clinton and I, and then the other one on the inside, George Bush and I. Right? So don't come at me, I said Democrats and Republicans. But I erased one and put my wife up.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  And I erased the other and I put my wife and sons up. Over the next two weeks. And as I did it, I thought, wow, this is the Antonio effect. Right? You know, he's, I think, I think if Elon's ever struggled, which of course he never has, I think Antonio's helped him out. He's just been amazing. And so, just that one question, just kind of, I felt like it rerouted my life a little bit. And then, in four sessions in my home game, I won so much money. I won like four X what I'd lost over the last three months. And I just became more solidly entrenched in the process, like, that was the key. Family first. Then you have your fun movie star life,

• 39:55Speaker 02

  where all these great things happen. But family first. And so, that was significant for me. Just that question.

• 40:10Tim Ferriss?

  So, on a related note, this is a question from Facebook, Melanie Nelson. What's the secret to his long-lasting marriage? So I'd just love to know, I mean, I'm gonna tweak it a little bit, but what other things have you done, right? I mean, it's, what other things have you worked on? How have you worked on making it this long? I mean, it's a rarity in this world, at least in the US.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  It's rare, you know, and it hasn't, it's not always easy.

• 40:34Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  And I think one thing is that, you know, I still have great desire for my wife. I still lust after. Honey, I love you. And that's important to keep that. It's important to keep that. I think for me, you know, I think my wife was probably ready to leave me in 99. Like, who the hell is this guy? Married a diamond in the rough, he's still in the rough. You're still, you're still a piece of coal. What, I mean, you were supposed to change and grow up, you're a smart guy. Her threatening to leave me devastated me. And, but my wife's smart, so she didn't do anything drastic.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  We went into therapy together, and I worked really hard at all my faults. Too much ego, too self-centered, too narcissistic, blah, blah, blah, right? A lot, a lot of stuff. It was really important to work on, and I saw the truth in all of that. And I was thinking about it every week. We'd spend an hour and a half, two hours, three hours a week. And, you know, figuring out how things I might have done wrong to her, mostly unintentionally. Sometimes I'd be trying to do her a favor, but of course, sometimes women think differently than men. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? So I learned a lot about that stuff, and it changed my primary relationship.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  So I grew for a year and a half, massive growth. What I found is all the other relationships changed. One of my friends, John Benetti, was crying in the car. "Phil, it's the first time you've listened to me in 10 years, crying, wow." And I was like, that's, that's my wife's effect.

• 42:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  You know? So in changing the primary relationship and focusing on becoming better, it made me smarter and wiser in all my other relationships, and it helped my poker, too. Because poker's a people game.

• 42:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  And so, so I think, so I, at the end of it, I was like, well, she made me into a better man, and we ended up coming out like this. And so, I remember, six months later, I'm like, "Man, I miss this growth. I want to go back into therapy, just so I can get better and grow more." And so, I mean, that's one thing that's been really smart for us. And then, you know, I mean, and then, you know, in the 30s, we all know that a lot of women are leaving men. And in the 40s, a lot of men are leaving women. The math and the science are undisputed. And so, when I struggled a little bit with whether or not, you know, I wanted to be in this relationship, I asked her to change a few things.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  And we went into therapy together, and she did. And so, we just keep growing. We keep getting better and better, better understanding of each other. And, you know, and I think, now at my age, I'm probably safe to be with her for another 25 years. I know how to avoid the temptations, you know? And I play with fire a little bit sometimes, and that I'm in those positions and having fun. But it's just like, I just don't think, after 27 years of not cheating, I'm going to go out and cheat.

• 43:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 43:56Tim Ferriss?

  How do your poker skills help you away from the table? You mentioned negotiation. Are there any other areas in which you can think poker has helped you?

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. I have to think about that.

• 44:13Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, maybe the answer's everything. I don't know. I mean, it-

• 44:16Speaker 02

  It could be everything.

• 44:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I mean, it just, I went, a lot of my friends who love poker, who are not professional players by any stretch of the imagination. But I had one friend of mine, very well-educated guy, I mean, he has a tattoo of a semicolon on his forearm. It's like, what? Very well-educated guy, John, who says that he learned all he needs to know about sort of navigating the world from his learning of poker.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  I have one. So, my friend Alan Mishra, who cured tennis elbow.

• 44:42Tim Ferriss?

  I didn't know you knew Alan.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Well, you know Alan, too.

• 44:46Tim Ferriss?

  Alan, yeah, Alan is one of the foremost experts.

• 44:50Tim Ferriss?

  In something called platelet-rich plasma, PRP injections. So they take out your whole blood, they spin it in a centrifuge, and they isolate the growth factors and then reinject it locally into injuries like Tensile. He's been in The New York Times, fascinating guy.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Amazing guy. He came to me in '02 and said, "I have this PRP thing." So I got involved with him, but I'm like, "Dude, you're gonna change the world." And he's like, "That's just what I needed to hear." And so I've invited him to my poker camps and we hang out. And right now, we're in a suicide football league together. We have one team left.

• 45:23Tim Ferriss?

  What is a suicide football league?

• 45:26Speaker 02

  It's just one where you have to pick a winner each week. But you can only pick a team once per year. So by the end, you're picking Cleveland and some other teams that haven't won many games.

• 45:36Tim Ferriss?

  Got it, okay.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  But anyway, Alan told me that, you know, playing poker has helped him read his patients. These high-profile patients come to him and he says, "Well, did you hurt your knee doing this?" And if they hesitate, he's like, "No true answer's coming." Like, "Have you been taking your medicine the last three weeks?" And he can tell whether they're lying or telling the truth, and that's good for him because then he can design a better program for them.

• 46:06Tim Ferriss?

  Fantastic doctor, hard to get a hold of. Very, very, very popular, competent guy.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Well, he's the guy that invented the surgery that Kobe had on the knee, where he went to Germany. Alan invented PRP. Alan owns the US patents on PRP. And yet, when Kobe goes over to Germany, no one mentions Alan Mischa's name as the inventor. It's some doctor in Germany. It's amazing what he can do. Imagine this, folks. You have your own blood, he spins out the PRP, okay, the growth hormone. Let's just say that you have Alzheimer's. They pour the PRP on the area with Alzheimer's. He thinks that may be one area that he can help. Say you had a heart attack. They've already proven that your heart will come back 85% better with your own blood.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  So imagine, we've been searching the top of the Himalayas for amazing things, when it's inside your blood, all this ability to cure. And Alan's working on some curing cancer stuff, which is amazing. And I don't know, I don't know, maybe I'm naive. I believe he has a decent shot to... I believe he's gonna cure cancer.

• 47:15Tim Ferriss?

  He's...

• 47:21Tim Ferriss?

  Just this small world story, it's worth pointing out. I'm not originally from the Bay Area. You're not originally from the Bay Area. I got advice very early on, this is on my answering machine, actually, way back in the day, from a mentor, and he said, "You're the average of the five people you associate with most." And I was like, huh. And that's been one of the pieces of advice that's guided a lot of my decisions, one of which was where to move to live. So the Bay Area, you just happen to bump into people like Alan Mishra. It's amazing. When you hear the word-

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a crazy guy. He just said, hey, he just went to the Nobel Prize winners and said, "Hey, I have a new concept. You know how we're trying to starve cancer cells? I'm just gonna feed them platelet-rich plasma and see how that works." You know? So, there's been some progress. So, I'll probably sound stupid, you can keep this in, but I'll probably sound stupid saying he's gonna, I think he's gonna cure cancer, but I'm sticking by it.

• 48:13Tim Ferriss?

  Hey.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  He's certainly cured a lot of other stuff, so...

• 48:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, he's a brilliant guy.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  No one knows his name.

• 48:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 48:23Tim Ferriss?

  When you hear the word "successful," who is the first person who comes to mind for you and why?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Wow. I mean, I think of some of my best friends. I think of Chamath Palihapitiya. I think of Bill Lee. People don't really, unless you're a business insider, you haven't heard of these guys.

• 48:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Can you explain for, why is that?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  If you're thinking, what Elon Musk done is beyond success. What he's doing. You know, he thinks we live in a matrix. You know? He, he's sending people to Mars. He has Tesla, he has SpaceX, that's extraordinary. And, um, but, sorry, I was thinking Chamath Palihapitiya and Bill Lee.

• 49:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so, why are these two very famous investors at this point?

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Again, nobody in the room knows their name.

• 49:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so why are they, what makes them successful to you?

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Well, the thing I like about, the thing I, I define success a little bit differently. So Chamath, um, I mean, I tease him that he got lucky. He didn't want to go to Facebook. They just kept giving him more and more stock. He's like, "I don't know if this thing's gonna work." So finally, he took the stock and went. So, you know, each point is worth, what, $2 billion now?

• 49:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, he's done pretty well.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  So, but, it's what he's done-

• 49:46Speaker 02

  He plays poker great. He, his family's great. He has an amazing wife, Bridget, and three young children. And I see the effort that he puts into like, you know, they used to, as a lot of people in Silicon Valley, the three nannies, the maids, all that kind of stuff. And these guys have gone a little bit away from that. And Chamath, he's been cooking meals for his wife and kids a little bit, which I've never done. But it's amazing to me. He's put family first. Yeah. And yet still changed the world. Mm-hmm. You know, deployed billions, 1.2 billion dollars now out into the field.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  He's crushing it, right? And then I look at my friend Billy, who, you know, spends a fair amount of time in his backyard with his young kids. And, and, you know, deals come to him. As you know, he's really good friends with Elon Musk. And I think when Elon flies over to Paris to do a climate change, there's one other guy on the plane. It's Bill. And Bill, because Bill's brilliant. And you want Bill with you. Because Bill's gonna help you write your climate speech, you know? When the Gigafactory opens, you want Billy next to you, you know? And so, these guys, they're living.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  They're having really nice lives. And Bill is one of the best angel investors in history. Yep. Maybe the best angel investor in history, we don't know. But he's been involved with, but he sits in his backyard. And I'll go, I, what was it, two days ago, I went, we had lunch together and we had a drink and just kind of chilled, you know? And that's, and I'll go to his house once a week and spend four hours in the afternoon sitting in the backyard. He has, you know, a one-year-old and a three-year-old and a six-year-old, and they're coming by always spicing up the atmosphere. And it just, I enjoy that. I enjoy the friendship thing. I didn't get that. I didn't get that until 2010. I was all about poker and family.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  And then I just, I kind of realized, it's seeped into my life, the importance of strong friendships. Definitely. So.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  There's a concept of forgiveness that's hugely important. And so for me personally, when I was studying Buddhism, we spent a week at Esalen, Kathy and I, my wife and I. A week at Esalen. We weren't allowed to talk. Esalen, for those guys who don't know, it's this idyllic spot in Big Sur. Esalen's a spiritual place that was famous from the 60s. It has natural hot springs and it's really fun. So when I studied Buddhism, the concept of forgiveness was important. I had someone steal $28,000 from me. Now, understand. I was staking this guy. I was feeding his family. Of that $28,000 that he had online that he stole from me,

• 52:56Speaker 02

  $14,000 was his. All he had to do was call me and say, "Phil, I need $7,000. You take $7,000, we'll leave $14,000 on." Instead, he chose to steal $28,000 from me. When I got the phone call that this had happened, I said, "What happened?" And I was in shock. This guy just stole $28,000 from me. I'm sending money to his family. I'm staking him. What's going on here? And I called my friend, John Benetti. Benetti's like, "Fry him! Release the evidence, crush him! Destroy him for life." We had the evidence, neat pile of evidence, released on the internet. He's destroyed for life.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  But what good does that do me? What good? And so I was just furious and steaming and whatever. And I called the guy and he was crying on the phone. And I finally just decided, "Honey, you and I are going out to dinner. We're gonna have the most expensive dinner and the most expensive bottle of wine I can have." Because my life is amazing. And I've spent one hour or two hours of my time steaming because someone stole from me. We went out, we had a really nice dinner. At the end of that dinner, I said, "I'm gonna completely forgive the guy." Nothing was ever released.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  But here's the beauty, here's what I didn't expect. I got paid back in full. This guy defends me to everybody on the planet. My wife said he's turned into like a protector of yours. So now, this is a big profile guy, he's defending me to everybody, telling everybody what a great guy I am. And I remember, the other amazing thing about this, this happened on a Monday night. I could have released it, all hell breaks loose. The internet just goes crazy in the poker world. Instead, I flew to Connecticut to play in a poker tournament, $10,000 buying on Friday. You can't make this up. You can't, I saw the guy, walked down me in the hallway, I shook his hand, it hurt a

• 55:05Speaker 02

  little bit. It hurt a little bit, but I shook his hand. I wouldn't give him a hug. I shook his hand, but I never had to worry about him again after shaking his hand, right? This is the freaky thing. I played in that tournament. Now, if I were at war with him, and I don't know, he couldn't say anything negative about me, but he might just start throwing mud trying to come up with stuff, right? I don't know, he couldn't, he could never attack me. But people would make shit up, right? So rather than in some mud throwing contest, my mind is focused on the poker tournament. You can't make, I just, I won $280,000.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Now, for third place, for $280,000, exactly 10 times. What you lost. Would have been stolen from me. So I got the $280,000. The guy paid me back in full, and he's been a protector of mine. All because I forgave this really bad act, bad actor act, right? So I love the concept of forgiveness. This is the only time, I have another great forgiveness story. In fact, I'm gonna tell it, because if anything makes this edit, I want the forgiveness stuff to make the edit. Another guy, who I used to play poker with in the 80s, in Madison, Wisconsin, he made sure that I was banned from the big game.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  He didn't want me to play in the big game in Madison. He banned me.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  So there's a lot of animosity towards him, right? Was he afraid of losing, or why didn't he want you to play? Partly that, probably thought I was acting up a little bit, but I think it was mostly he didn't want me in the game because I was winning so much money in Madison. He banned me for three years, I moved in 1993. In 1994, I saw him with some other friends and I invited him out to a movie. We went out to a dinner and a movie, and I was as nice as I could be, and I completely forgave him, okay? In your head, or? In my head. Yeah. And sometimes that's an act where I'll lie down on a bed, I'll close my eyes and I'll try to meditate, and I'll send love towards that person that I hate.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  I'll just, waves of love, whatever that means to the individual. But when I'm doing that, I usually am on the bed a long time, because then I'm like, well, I have to send love to all the people I love, too.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  So I'm there 20 minutes, but I don't know, I can't explain it to you, then the very next time I see someone like that who I've sent love to, it's like they've received it. So, did they just notice that my demeanor towards them changed, that I'm happy to see them? Or what happened, I don't know, I can't explain it. So what happened with this guy? So this guy calls me three years later, and led me to, and said, "Hey, listen, I recommended you for this deal."

• 57:52Speaker 02

  And I made like 14 million dollars.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  So I gotta tell you, I'm into forgiveness. So, I forgive everybody, so, no, but I haven't had, I haven't had some other really horrible stuff happen, you know, like, I don't know, rape or stuff like that, I don't, I wouldn't know how to counsel someone if really traumatic stuff happened, you know? But I know for me, forgiving people stealing from me and all this other stuff has led to amazing results, and I have no hatred in my heart. I get to walk around happy every day, you know, and again, I think it's really huge, I'll say it again, when you're walking down any hallway and anybody on the planet walks towards you, I don't have to turn left or right.

• 58:44Tim Ferriss?

  I think it's also, I remember thinking to myself at one point that if you're offended easily, because I am offended easily, I have some anger issues sometimes, you're a bad resource allocator. It's a bad use of this finite resource, which is your energy and calories and hours on this planet when you're awake. So for me, it's like, alright, well, it's kind of a two for one if you forgive people. You get the altruism, but you also get the practicality. And then you get these unforeseen ripple effects later.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  I wasn't expecting the ripple effects.

• 59:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  But it happens. I mean, it's just wonderful. I'm like, wow, this is something I'm gonna do the rest of my life. Yeah, I've had guys like, I've had guys write 80 negative blogs about me, about the way I play poker. Never crossed the line to personal.

• 59:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Maybe a little bit in there, and forgave those guys. I knew this guy who attacked me all this time that actually kind of loved me. So I forgave him and we moved on and we're friends. So I've never written, I've never written anything negative about him ever, but it's okay.

• 59:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  I don't feel the need to, you know?

• 59:51Tim Ferriss?

  So I want to maybe take a hard left turn and talk about

• 59:55Speaker 02

  We're turning away from forgiveness?

• 59:57Tim Ferriss?

  I'm going to rampage. From forgiveness to rampage. Don't worry, we're not gonna end on a sour

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  Somebody knew what that rampage was about.

• 1:00:05Tim Ferriss?

  We're not gonna end on a sour note. So you told a story last night, well, I was having some malback, let's be honest, and you told the I'm going on the rampage story. Now, was this in Europe or was it somewhere else?

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  So we had a $300,000 buy-in tournament in May. And I decided, there was a 300K, there was another 100K, another 100K. And so I thought, you know what? I've been bad at raising money to play poker. I let one guy stake me, I've made him like 1.5 million. It's been great. But let me try this other way. And so I reached out to my friends, but I wasn't sure they would respond. So I reached out, so I thought, but I only want to reach out once. So in this email, I'm gonna list, I'm gonna say the first thing, it's a high-risk investment. You're putting up $540,000 for me to play six tournaments. High risk.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  So be aware, you're probably gonna lose your money. That's how I led the email. And then I said, I listed the events, when they would be on television. Cause it's kinda fun, when you're staking someone to watch them live on television. They're playing your money. You're live on television, like that's my horse, man. I mean, that's like better than having somebody in the Kentucky Derby. The Derby only lasts 60 seconds. Yeah. They got to watch me play for like- You get to be nervous for hours. They got to watch me, yes. They got to watch me play 20 hours of live television in this event, or more than that. And so it's kinda cool, so I sent it out and I also put wiring instructions. And I said, "Let's see what happens." $540,000, so I'll take a 10% free roll and I'll put in the first 54,000.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  That way I'm playing for 20%. Alright, let's see what happens. Well, within 20 hours, I sold out. And then people were mad at me, cause I didn't get them in. So, um, so now I'm playing this $300,000 buying tournament. And it's live on Fox Sports Net. And we're on day two, or whatever. I think it's sold out at 48 players. We're on day two, it's late, and maybe even day three, and I'm feeling boxed in. What does that mean? I have a young, great player on my right, Dan Smith. Another great player, Fedor Holtz, on my left, who's been crushing it in 2016, just crushing it. And there's somebody else there. And I just felt like, they're on to me.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  They're playing me too well. And I said, "Screw this. I might bust myself, but I'm gonna try something else." I said, "This is it." They're just, they're too attuned to me. Well, they also have years of tape on you, right? Correct. So I said, "I'm on a rampage, raise it." And I'm throwing the chips in, and I'm saying, "I'm on a rampage," like once every 15 seconds. "I'm on a rampage, I'm on a..." I raised 10 pots in a row, and they're like, from being this calm, patient Phil, to all of a sudden raising, and they're just like, I just saw the looks in their faces, what the hell is going on here? Raise it, raise it, raise it. Well, the hole cards are flashing to the world. Nine deuce offsuit, jack four offsuit, you know, seven deuce offsuit. Just nothing. I'm not even looking at my hands.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  I don't even look at a hand during my rampage. Raise it, raise it, raise it. I'm on a rampage, I'm on a rampage. I'm winning every pot accumulating all these chips and I'm like, alright, I messed up their flow. Right? And if they do call, I'm betting the flop, I'm betting the turn, firing. Just throwing chips in there and I'm saying, "I'm on a rampage, I'm on a rampage." It was great television. I'm sure. Two things happened. One, I'm finally in the big blind. All the backers are like, "My horse is on a rampage." Oh yeah. Oh, I got those emails the next day. Trust me. So now, I'm in the big blind, I hadn't looked at my hole cards, there's a guy in the small blind. And I said, "I'm on a rampage." Everybody else in fold, they don't dare raise my blind, he's like, all in.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  He puts 2 million in, I looked down at Queens, I call 700,000, he has a nine and a 10. I win that point, I'm at 1.4 million and I'm on a rampage, I'm on a rampage. I'm going on and on about it. And finally, finally, I slowed down. Now, the next day, so I did this, no one understands on the planet why I did this. This is one reason why I'm a bad poker player, they say, right? What I'm trying to do is just lose my mind, be crazy and let them know, "You're not bluffing me for this next 20 hands. You are not gonna bluff me. You might beat me, but if you re-raise me, I'm calling all your re-raises too." I'm telling them, "You re-raise me, I'm calling. So let's just get it on." You know, it just doesn't matter to me. It's all threat and bluster

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  and I probably would have called them if they re-raised me. Because that's just what I was gonna do, you know? And so, but it really changed the dynamics of the game. Now, of course, the next day, I had like, five different investors emailing me. "Phil, don't lose it like that again. Phil, what were you thinking? Phil, what are you doing? Why are you playing nine deuce offsuit? Why are you playing jack three offsuit?" You know, all of these commentary, you know? And I'm just like, I'm like, "Doesn't anybody see the brilliance of what I did?" No, they see the insanity of what I just did.

• 1:05:13Tim Ferriss?

  They're one in the same, right? It's like everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Custom auto trainer Mike Tyson. You have a pretty theory, now let me go on a rampage. So, we're gonna wrap up with-

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  By the way, some of the highest ratings ever in poker history.

• 1:05:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  I mean, to watch me go crazy like that, those clips have been watched just a ton.

• 1:05:34Tim Ferriss?

  Ladies and gentlemen, Phil Hellman.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 1:05:47Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend. And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 1:06:29Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to 4hourworkweek.com. That's 4hourworkweek.com, all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This podcast is brought to you by Miz and Maine. Many of you long time listeners know how I feel about Miz and Maine. They make the most comfortable dress shirts in the world, quite possibly. They use advanced performance fabrics, which provides stretch and comfort. But, that's not the real selling point to me. That's all great, it's all really good, but they are the only dress shirts, so to speak, that I travel with.

• 1:07:13Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:07:57Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:08:40Tim Ferriss?

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