#92: Maria Popova on Being Interesting, Creating More Time in a Day, And How to Start A Successful Blog

Maria Popova (@brainpicker https://twitter.com/brainpicker) has written for amazing outlets like The Atlantic and The New York Times, but I find her most amazing project to be BrainPickings.org http://www.brainpickings.org/. Founded in 2006 as a weekly email to seven friends, BrainPickings now gets more than 5 million readers per month (!). I read very few blogs regularly, but BrainPickings is one of the few that makes the cut. It's a treasure trove. Maria is massively successful, and her output is staggering. None of it's accidental, and she's great at teaching what she's learned. This episode answers the top-10 most popular questions you all had for Maria, including: The single attribute that leads to greatness in any given field Required reading and habits for anyone in public office How Henry David Thoreau was the first to talk about the dangers of sitting Why we must stop calling our work, "content" Links, resources, and show notes from this episode can be found at http://fourhourworkweek.com/podcast This podcast is brought to you by Vimeo Pro https://vimeo.com/business, which is ideal for entrepreneurs. In fact, a bunch of my start-ups are already using Vimeo Pro https://vimeo.com/business. WealthFront https://www.wealthfront.com/ uses it to explain how it develops personalized investment portfolios. TaskRabbit https://www.taskrabbit.com/ uses it to tell the company's story. Twitter uses it to showcase Periscope https://www.periscope.tv/. Why are they using it instead of other options out there? Vimeo Pro https://vimeo.com/business provides enterprise level video hosting that typically costs thousands of dollars for a tiny fraction of the cost. Features include: Gorgeous high-quality playback with no ads Up to 20 GB of video storage every week Unlimited plays and views A fully customizable video player, which can include your company logo, custom outro, and more You get all this for just $199 per year (that's only $17 per/mo.) https://vimeo.com/business There are no complicated bandwith calculations or hidden fees. Just go to Vimeo.com/business https://vimeo.com/business to check it out. If you like it, you can use the promo code "Tim" to get 25% off https://vimeo.com/business. This is the deepest discount you will find anywhere for Vimeo Pro https://vimeo.com/business. This podcast is also brought to you by Mizzen + Main http://mizzenandmain.com/collections/tim. These are the only "dress" shirts I now travel with — fancy enough for important dinners but made from athletic, sweat-wicking material http://fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. No more ironing, no more steaming, no more hassle. Click here for the exact shirts I wear most often http://mizzenandmain.com/collections/tim. Don't forget to use the code "TIM" at checkout. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I answer your personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Well, we're seeing appropriate timing.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Vimeo Pro, which is ideal for entrepreneurs. And in fact, a bunch of my startups are already using Vimeo Pro. Wealthfront uses it to explain how Wealthfront works. Taskrabbit uses it to tell the company's story. Twitter uses it to showcase Periscope. Why are they using it instead of other options out there? Well, Vimeo Pro provides enterprise-level video hosting that typically costs thousands of dollars for a tiny fraction of the cost. And features include gorgeous, high-quality playback with no ads, up to 20 gigabytes of video storage every week, unlimited plays and views, and a fully customizable video player. This is important, which can include your company logo, custom outro, etc. You get all this for just $1.99 per year.

• 1:07Tim Ferriss?

  That's $17 a month, with no complicated bandwidth calculations or hidden fees. So just go to vimeo.com/business to check it out. It's very cool. And if you like it, you can use promo code TIM to get 25% off. This is the deepest discount you will find anywhere for Vimeo Pro. So check it out. Again, that's vimeo.com/business, promo code TIM.

• 1:32Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen & Maine. Don't worry about the spelling. All you need to know is this: I have organized my entire life around avoiding fancy shirts because you have to iron them, you sweat through them, they smell really easily, they're a pain in the ass. Mizzen & Maine has given me the only shirt that I need. And what I mean by that, and Kelly Starrett loves these shirts as well, is that you can trick people. They look really fancy, so you can take them out to nice dinners, whatever, but they're made from athletic, sweat-wicking material. So you can throw this thing into your luggage in a heap or on your kitchen table like I did recently. And then pull it out, throw it on with no ironing, no steaming, no nothing.

• 2:14Tim Ferriss?

  Walk out and you could probably wear this thing for a week straight or make it your only dress shirt and take it on trips for weeks at a time. Never wash it. It will not smell. You will not sweat through it. You gotta check these things out. So go to fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. Check it out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts and you'll see some of my favorite gear, including the one shirt that I've been traveling with. Igunlar and iyakshamlar. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is a fun one and as you know, every episode, my job is to find world-class

• 2:55Tim Ferriss?

  performers and help you to deconstruct them, to show you how they do what they do, what makes them unique, their routines, their favorite books, and so on. And today, we have a repeat guest, Maria Popova. Maria Popova has written for amazing outlets like The Atlantic and The New York Times, but I find her most amazing project to be brainpickings.org. Founded in 2006 as a weekly email to seven friends, Brain Pickings now gets more than 5 million readers per month. It is massive. And she does not have a big team around her. This is just Maria. She is prodigious in the amount of content she puts out. I read very few blogs regularly at all, but Brain Pickings is one of the few that makes the cut. It is a real treasure trove, so I encourage you to check it out.

• 3:39Tim Ferriss?

  Maria is a massively successful content creator and her output is staggering, as I mentioned. None of it's accidental. She is great and she is very great at teaching what she's learned. So this episode answers the top 10 most popular questions you all had for Maria and I'm not going to add any more to this preamble. Please enjoy part two with Maria Popova.

• 4:05Maria Popova?

  Okay, here we go. Sun in Singapore asks, "Knowing what you know now, what advice would you give a complete beginner about starting a blog?" Write for yourself. If you want to create something meaningful and fulfilling, something that lasts and speaks to people, the counterintuitive but really, really necessary thing is that you must not write for people. The second you begin to write for or to a so-called "audience," and this applies equally to podcasting, and filmmaking, and photography, and dance, and any field of creative endeavor, the second you start doing it for an audience, you've lost the long game.

• 4:48Maria Popova?

  Because creating something that is rewarding and sustainable over the long run requires, most of all, keeping yourself excited about it, which in turn, of course, requires only doing things that you yourself are interested in, that enthuse you. I think the key to being interesting is being interested and enthusiastic about those interests. That's contagious. That's what makes people read you and come back, which by the way, should and can only ever be a byproduct of your own willingness to keep coming back to your work, to your creation, because if you do it for their people, trying to predict what they'll be

• 5:29Maria Popova?

  interested in, and kind of pretzeling yourself to fit those expectations, you soon begin to begrudge it and become embittered, and it begins to show in the work. It always, always shows in the work when you resent it. And there's really nothing less pleasurable to read than embittered writing. I'm reminded of Vonnegut, who in the seventh of his Eighth Tips on Writing, he said, "Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia." First of all, God love Vonnegut, always so witty and so wise.

• 6:12Maria Popova?

  But when I first came upon this, which was maybe about five years into Brain Pickings, it so elegantly crystallized something that I deeply believed and was kind of living by and operating by, but hadn't articulated this succinctly even to myself. Now, sometimes I think people, usually younger people, can misinterpret that to mean right to please your teacher, or your publisher, or the person you're in love with. But Vonnegut really meant right to please yourself. And the other thing related to this, which is a major, major thing, is this.

• 6:54Maria Popova?

  I bet you that if Vonnegut were alive today and was writing on a medium like a blog, he'd be approaching it the same way that he did his fiction. And he, like any self-respecting writer, would never, ever, ever refer to or think about his writing on that platform, on any platform, as quote-unquote "content." On that platform, be it a blog, be it something else, which is just a medium for the writing, he would be writing things more in the spirit of Cat's Cradle than in the unspirited vein of catalysticals. There's actually, I think, nothing more toxic to the creation of meaningful cultural

• 7:39Maria Popova?

  material, whatever its medium, than the term "content," which already implies like an icky, external motive. Content is something you produce and purvey to other people, filler material that becomes currency for advertising and whatnot, and not something that you do for yourself. Nobody does content for the joy of their soul. And the second you start thinking of your writing as content, you've altered the motive. You're no longer writing for yourself. So, to distill...

• 8:17Maria Popova?

  Write for yourself, stay interested, don't ever let yourself think of what you do as content, or be bullied into viewing it, much less treating it as such. And lastly, perhaps the best advice on writing ever given, which applies just as much to blogging, courtesy of Susan Sontag, "Love words, agonize over sentences, and pay attention to the world." Next question, Lou from Malaysia asks, "You have probably read and understood all the wisdom and knowledge shared on Brain Pickings, do you feel you have become who you want to be, if not, what is stopping you?"

• 9:00Maria Popova?

  It's such an interesting question, because there are so many layers to it. As I told Tim in our original conversation, I started Brain Pickings in my early twenties as a kind of record of my own becoming, and now, nine years in, it's still that. And it can only ever be that, because we never stop becoming, we never stop growing. If we do, that's how we know we're dead. Life is a continual process of arrival into who we are. And the funny thing, actually, is that from the vantage point of any moment in our lives,

• 9:40Maria Popova?

  we look back on ourselves, say, five years earlier, and we think, "Wow, what a spiritual embryo I was, what an intellectual baby." And yet, that very vantage point, when looked at from five years into the future, will look just as primitive a version of who we are then. The Harvard psychologist Dan Gilbert, whose book, Stumbling on Happiness, by the way, should be required reading for every human being, he puts it perfectly. He says, "Human beings are works in progress that mistakenly think they're finished." And I think that's so true.

• 10:21Maria Popova?

  But there's a fine line between contentment and self-satisfaction. And I think the key is to be content with who you are and where you are at any given moment, because living with presence both requires and gives rise to such contentment. But not to be so self-satisfied as to assume that you've reached perfection or who you're supposed to be, and to kind of cut yourself off from that vital impulse for continual growth. So, back to the question, I don't think I've become who I want to be, and I have become

• 11:03Maria Popova?

  who I want to be in this moment, but not in an ultimate sense. And what's stopping me from becoming who I want to be? Well, in a way, what I do is all about stopping myself from the illusion of having arrived, of having become a static and self-satisfied final self. So, the thing stopping me then is the very thing that's driving me forward. And I think that's true of all of us, if we're serious about personal growth and this lifelong process of becoming. Maleika in Switzerland asks, "What is the most significant characteristic that distinguishes

• 11:48Maria Popova?

  people who have accomplished greatness in any given field?" I would say consistency. Showing up, day in and day out, psycho-emotional, rain or shine. If you look at the diary of any great artist or writer, and I read a lot of those, I have a pretty vast sample pool here, the one thing you see over and over is that whatever happens, whatever they're experiencing, be it agonizing self-doubt, which by the way, all of them experience, nowhere more beautifully than in Steinbeck's Working Days, which I highly, highly recommend, or the intoxicating elation of being in love, which makes you unable to

• 12:31Maria Popova?

  think about anything else at all, whatever it is they're feeling, they still show up. They still face the blank page, the empty canvas, the fresh roll of film, every day, and they do their thing. And what this doggedness is, is really a deep love of the work, a deep need to do the work in order to feel alive. Making a living is merely a byproduct to that. And for some of them, that doesn't even come in their lifetime. And make no mistake, by the way, all those artists and writers who bemoan how hard the work is, and, "Oh, how tedious the creative process, and, 'Oh, what a tortured genius' they are," don't buy

• 13:16Maria Popova?

  into it. They're doing it, perhaps, because we've created a society that mistakes the notion of hard work to mean not just dedicated work, but difficult work. As if difficulty and struggle and torture somehow confer seriousness upon your chosen work. Doing great work simply because you love it sounds, in our culture, somehow flimsy. And that's a failing of our culture, not of the choice of work that artists make. But here's the

• 13:56Maria Popova?

  thing. Yes, a number of artists are bedeviled by serious mental illness that makes them experience actual, real anguish in their lives. And I've written, by the way, about the relationship between creativity and mental illness, if you're curious. It's far more complex than we realize. You can find that online. But in any case, the reality of that is that without their art, all of these artists would have suffered more. One of my big, big, big pet peeves is when someone, say, comments on Van Gogh's Letters to His Brother,

• 14:34Maria Popova?

  which are absolutely beautiful and full of so much wisdom and light. And somebody says, "Oh, you know, well, why should we hate Van Gogh when he ultimately perished by his own madness?" Well, how many people are there in the history of the world who perished by their own madness and didn't paint The Starry Night? Van Gogh's art didn't take his life. It redeemed it. Without it, he would have just been an average unkempt, mentally ill man who died miserable in a small village. With it, he was able to experience moments of transcendent joy and meaning, which also

• 15:18Maria Popova?

  happened to produce some of the greatest, most lasting works of art of all time. And of course, Van Gogh is an extreme case, both in his talent and in his misery. But his life illustrates why every great artist, and I mean artist in the broadest sense of a human being creating work that makes other human beings feel something meaningful, why every great artist does what they do. That's the key to both their consistency and their greatness. So if you're looking for a formula for greatness, the closest we'll ever get, I think, is this: consistency driven by a deep love of the work.

• 16:00Maria Popova?

  Okay, next question by Matthew Silberman in Chicago, who, by the way, asked a number of great questions. This is one of them. "How do you decide what to read and what to read first? What makes something not worth reading?" I often say that literature is the original internet. So every footnote in a book, every citation, every reference is essentially a hyperlink to another book. Most of the great books I've come across, and this applies especially to really wonderful forgotten books, most of those I've discovered through a mention by an author that I already enjoyed.

• 16:41Maria Popova?

  It's kind of the ultimate recommendation algorithm that leads you to new, very surprising manifestations of the same shared sensibility sure to please you. And for instance, recently, it was through Cheryl Strayed's memoir that I came upon a beautiful book from 1968 by a man named Edward Abbey. It's called Desert Solitaire. And he writes about a few months he spent as a park ranger in the Moab Desert. But he's really writing about solitude and our intricate connection to the natural world and how we find ourselves by getting lost.

• 17:21Maria Popova?

  Very profound things through what's essentially a travel, travelogue. And similarly, it was through Elizabeth Gilbert's novel, The Signature of All Things, which is obviously fiction, but it's heavily inspired by the long history, actual history, of largely unsung female botanists. It was through that that I came upon a tiny, miraculously beautiful book called Gathering Moss by a bryologist that I learned is a scientist who studies moss, a bryologist named Robin Wall Kimmerer. She writes about moss, but she's really writing about how to live, how to pay attention

• 18:02Maria Popova?

  to the world, how to relish beauty, how to inhabit your own existence with a deeper sense of presence. And that's kind of the answer to the second part of the question about what makes something worth reading. To me, that's a book that illuminates some aspect of how to live, however large or small, that that leaves you with a sense of having understood a little bit better your purpose here, or having appreciated a little bit more some aspect of the world, inner or outer, or ideally both. And as for the sequence of what to read when, it is so much a matter of what's on my mind,

• 18:46Maria Popova?

  what I'm experiencing in my own life, what I'm trying to make sense of. I read to make sense of life and the writing is just the record of the reading. So mood, life events, time of year, time of the month, time of the day, all of these can have an impact on what of the things that I have chosen to read, I will read, begin reading in that specific moment. But again, it has to answer some aspect of this question of how am I going to make my life better and richer in this moment and in the long run?

• 19:25Maria Popova?

  Actually, a number of people asked very similar questions, so I'm going to combine them and answer them all at once here. Here's one from Carla Cienfuegos in L.A. She said, "What is a text you refer to again and again?" And Krishna in San Francisco said, "What book have you read multiple times and have read the most?" I would say, right now, and this answer might be different in another nine years, The Diaries of Henry David Thoreau. Speaking of this intersection of the outer world and the inner world, nobody writes more beautifully about the immutable dialogue between the two than he.

• 20:04Maria Popova?

  There is just so much, and I mean so much, universal timeless truth in his private reflections on everything from the best definition of success to the perils of sitting, which he wrote about 150 years before we started saying sitting is the new smoking. And actually, what I said just a few moments ago about our warped cultural ideas of hard work reminded me of a journal entry, one of his journal entries. Let me see if I can find it. Okay. Okay, here it is.

• 20:44Maria Popova?

  From March of 1842, Thoreau writes, "The really efficient laborer will be found not to crowd his day with work, but will saunter to his tasks surrounded by a wide halo of ease and leisure. There will be a wide margin for relaxation to his day. His only earnest to secure the kernels of time and does not exaggerate the value of the husk." Think of what a beautiful metaphor this is for not mistaking the husk, the outer accoutrements of productivity, like business, or a full calendar, or a clever outer responder, not

• 21:27Maria Popova?

  mistaking those for the kernel, the core and substance of the actual work produced. And he then says, "Those who work much do not work hard."

• 21:41Maria Popova?

  I love that. And a related but somewhat different question from Fatos in Pristina, Kosovo, which is very near my hometown of Sofia, Bulgaria. He asks, "If your house was burned and you had the chance to only rescue one book, assuming that you cannot buy any other book later on, which one would it be?" Now, if I can't ever buy another book, the answer, I guess, would be the same, Thoreau's journals. But perhaps a more practical approach, assuming I can at some point replace the burned books,

• 22:22Maria Popova?

  however far off into the future, then what is most valuable to me in read books is actually my marginalia. So, for instance, while I have a physical copy of Thoreau's diaries, it's actually available as an ebook, which is how I most frequently revisit it, and my highlights and notes on it are electronic. So I have so-called copies of them in the cloud. It's not clear in the question whether the great big fire is going to wipe out the internet as well, assuming it does not. But there are out-of-print books that I treasure that are hard, if not impossible, to replace,

• 23:06Maria Popova?

  in which I have copious notes by hand. And in that case, if that counts, then I'd have a different answer. And it would be a tie between a rap on race, which is the transcript of James Baldwin and Margaret Mead's extraordinarily prescient 1970 conversation on not just race, but also gender equality and democracy and forgiveness and the difference between guilt and responsibility and what comes after consumer culture. It is amazing. It is very, very, very hard to find. My book has so much of my own writing that on some pages it's more than the actual text.

• 23:51Maria Popova?

  So that would be tied with "On Science, Necessity, and the Love of God" by the French philosopher Simone Weil, whom I consider one of the most luminous and lucid and underappreciated minds of the 20th century. That book is also very, very, very, very hard to find. Both of them, in fact, are so deeply out of print that there's actually a black market for them online. So if you manage to find a copy, you can probably make some good money for it on eBay or Amazon Used Books. And again, both of these copies, my own copies, are so heavily annotated that what I'd be running with really is as much my own thoughts and ideas recorded in there

• 24:35Maria Popova?

  as the actual ideas of the authors. Daniel in Palo Alto wants to know, "If you could guarantee that every public official or leader read one book and engaged in one habit, what would those be?" The book would be, perhaps rather obviously, Plato's "Republic." I'm actually gobsmacked that this isn't required in order to be sworn into office, like the Constitution is required for us immigrants when it comes time to obtain American citizenship. And the practice would be mindfulness meditation. It's not a vaccine against greed and corruption,

• 25:18Maria Popova?

  but it does make it significantly harder to be selfish when you cultivate equanimity, when you come to dismantle the illusion of the separate self, when you begin to see the inherent interconnectedness of everything, of all people and of all beings, how our smallest daily actions add up to our collective destiny. And after all, if you're a public official, the public good, which is just another word for the best possible collective destiny, should be your primary concern. And nothing centers you more powerfully on that than the mindset gained through meditation

• 26:03Maria Popova?

  and through mindfulness.

• 26:06Maria Popova?

  Okay, and the last question comes from Freezy in France. "How do you turn down invitations that don't interest you? How do you avoid getting time-jacked by people who are just seeking from you and don't share anything?" I think that's harder early on, both earlier in life and earlier in any vocational trajectory, because we're such Pavlovian creatures and we crave positive reinforcement. And we often mistake interest for affirmation of our worth, especially if there's an element of prestige attached to it.

• 26:45Maria Popova?

  That is, interest from people or institutions we admire, we perceive as prestigious. So if somebody admirable is interested in us, we think, "Well, we too then must be admirable." But over time, I think you get better at trusting your criteria for what makes you and your work admirable, admirable on the inside, that is. What makes you proud? Maybe appearing on CNN for two minutes will make your grandmother proud, but if the travel and preparation and logistics eat up 20 hours of your time, so that your writing suffers,

• 27:29Maria Popova?

  so that you will ultimately not be proud of the result, then maybe it's not worth it. Often, I think the paradox is that accepting the requests you receive is at the expense of the quality of the very work that was the reason for those requests in the first place. And that's what you always have to protect. I recently read Oliver Sacks's memoir, On the Move, which, by the way...

• 27:58Maria Popova?

  And I don't say this lightly because perhaps by now you know how much and how wholeheartedly and voraciously I read. It has been one of the most transformative reading experiences of my life and I couldn't recommend it more heartily. But in any case, in it, Dr. Sacks mentions that when his career as a writer started picking up, so did obviously the volume of demands for speaking and interviews and this and that. And so, he put a piece of paper on the wall by his desk that simply said, in all caps, "No" with an exclamation point. It was to remind himself to decline invitations that tipped away from his writing time.

• 28:43Maria Popova?

  And these reminders, they're so simple, they're so, you know, in this case, so analog, and they work. I have, I have a tattoo on my right arm that, my right forearm, which I see all the time, that reminds me every day what to focus on. Now, this said, I think it's a very subjective thing, this, this dance of discerning whether the end product will make you proud, will be rewarding and fulfilling by your innermost measure. So, for me, for example, I almost always do things for students, even if it takes up my reading and writing time.

• 29:22Maria Popova?

  Because I feel that if I can help one young person even consider a life path other than the corporate gristle, if I can persuade one aspiring journalist to consider not working for BuzzFeed and to refuse to feed the public's appetite for mindlessness and mediocrity, and to assure this young person to have faith in the possibility of building a life and a career based on E.B. White's journalistic ideal of lifting people up rather than lowering them down.

• 29:58Maria Popova?

  Then it's worth my time. It is absolutely worth my time. I also always do things for friends and for people whose work I admire and want to support and with whom I feel a kind of kinship of spirit. Hi, Tim. Even if it takes time away from my own work. I really, really, really believe that creative culture is woven of these invisible threads of goodwill between people who believe in one another. And art is carried on the wings of this kinship. So anytime you put toward that as an investment in the most rewarding thing about being in

• 30:42Maria Popova?

  a position to be asked to help in the first place. And that's the loveliest part of life.

• 30:54Tim Ferriss?

  This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen & Maine. Don't worry about the spelling. All you need to know is this. I have organized my entire life around avoiding fancy shirts because you have to iron them, you sweat through them, they smell really easily, they're a pain in the ass. Mizzen & Maine has given me the only shirt that I need. And what I mean by that, and Kelly Starrett loves these shirts as well, is that you can trick people. They look really fancy, so you can take them out to nice dinners, whatever, but they're made from athletic sweat-wicking material. So you can throw this thing into your luggage in a heap or on your kitchen table like I did recently, and then pull it out, throw it on with no ironing, no steaming, no nothing,

• 31:36Tim Ferriss?

  walk out, and you could probably wear this thing for a week straight or make it your only dress shirt and take it on trips for weeks at a time. Never wash it, it will not smell, you will not sweat through it. You gotta check these things out. So go to fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. Check it out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts and you'll see some of my favorite gear, including the one shirt that I've been traveling with.

• 32:05Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Vimeo Pro, which is ideal for entrepreneurs. And in fact, a bunch of my startups are already using Vimeo Pro. Wealthfront uses it to explain how Wealthfront works. TaskRabbit uses it to tell the company's story. Twitter uses it to showcase Periscope. Why are they using it instead of other options out there? Well, Vimeo Pro provides enterprise-level video hosting that typically costs thousands of dollars for a tiny fraction of the cost. And features include gorgeous, high-quality playback with no ads, up to 20 gigabytes of video storage every week, unlimited plays and views, and a fully customizable video player. This is important, which can include your company logo, custom outro, etc. You get all of this for just $1.99 per year.

• 32:50Tim Ferriss?

  That's $17 a month, with no complicated bandwidth calculations or hidden fees. So just go to vimeo.com/business to check it out. It's very cool. And if you like it, you can use promo code TIM to get 25% off. This is the deepest discount you will find anywhere for Vimeo Pro. So check it out. Again, that's vimeo.com/business, promo code TIM. And until next time, thank you for listening.