#765: Chris Sacca and Scott Glenn

This episode is a two-for-one, and that’s because the podcast recently hit its 10-year anniversary and passed one billion downloads. To celebrate, I’ve curated some of the best of the best—some of my favorites—from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. The episode features segments from episode #79 "Chris Sacca on Being Different and Making Billions https://tim.blog/2015/05/30/chris-sacca/" and #729 "Legendary Actor Scott Glenn — How to Be Super Fit at 85, Lessons from Marlon Brando, How to Pursue Your Purpose, The Art of Serendipity, Stories of Gunslingers, and More https://tim.blog/2024/03/27/scott-glenn/." Please enjoy! Sponsors: Momentous https://livemomentous.com/tim high-quality supplements: https://livemomentous.com/tim (code TIM for 20% off) Shopify https://shopify.com/tim global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business: https://shopify.com/tim (one-dollar-per-month trial period) AG1 https://drinkag1.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://drinkag1.com/tim (1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase.) Timestamps: [00:00] Start [05:19] Notes about this supercombo format. [06:23] Enter Chris Sacca. [06:53] Traits of founders for whom success, at massive scale, seems predestined. [08:00] Travis Kalanick and Nintendo Wii Tennis. [09:55] Resources for cultivating investing chops, emotional intelligence, and general empathy. [18:37] Chris' evolving concept of success. [22:31] What Chris and his brother Brian's parents did right. [26:47] What Chris looks for when hiring. [29:23] The prophetic notebook. [31:29] Advice to aimless college graduates. [34:06] Two differentiators that shifted the nature of Chris' business [38:16] Enter Scott Glenn. [38:44] Idaho vs. Los Angeles. [44:59] Apocalypse Now, self-confidence soon after. [49:00] Burt Lancaster's movie star lessons. [54:41] The birth and death of Wes Hightower. [1:03:56] Catching the attention of James Bridges. [1:06:12] Scarlet fever. [1:07:57] From Marine to police reporter. [1:12:42] Berghof Studios and parental advice. [1:21:12] Converting to Judaism. [1:24:04] Lao Tzu: the ultimate mystic? [1:28:44] Letting go with Killer Joe. [1:33:20] "Crazy Whitefella Thinking." [1:38:53] Getting out of the way and Erwan Le Corre. [1:42:19] Lessons from the "morally phenomenal" Marlon Brando. [1:46:54] How Scott's childhood bout with scarlet fever informed his life's course. [1:49:33] Daily routines and exercises of an in-shape 85-year-old. [2:05:46] Securing a serendipitous skill set. [2:12:41] Thailand talk. [2:16:46] Increasing surface luck. [2:17:32] How Scott met and fell in love with his wife. [2:23:32] "Just dance." [2:24:14] Mistakenly calling Rudolf Nureyev Russian. [2:26:24] Poetry. [2:30:31] What Laurence Olivier knew about the value of tenacity. [2:32:09] Parting thoughts. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I view AG1 as comprehensive nutritional insurance, and that is nothing new. I actually recommended AG1 in my 2010 best seller, more than a decade ago, The 4-Hour Body, and I did not get paid to do so. I simply loved the product and felt like it was the ultimate nutritionally dense supplement that you could use conveniently while on the run, which is for me, a lot of the time. I have been using it a very, very long time indeed. And I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement? And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases.

• 0:42Tim Ferriss?

  I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? What is this stuff? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. Since 2010, they have improved the formula 52 times in pursuit of making the best foundational nutrition supplement possible, using rigorous standards and high-quality ingredients. How many ingredients? 75. And you would be hard-pressed to find a more nutrient-dense formula on the market. It has a multivitamin, multi-mineral superfood complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut

• 1:23Tim Ferriss?

  health, an antioxidant immune support formula, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens to help manage stress. Now, I do my best, always, to eat nutrient-dense meals. That is the basic, basic, basic, basic requirement, right? That is why things are called supplements. Of course, that's what I focus on, but it is not always possible. It is not always easy. So, part of my routine is using AG1 daily. If I'm on the road, on the run, it just makes it easy to get a lot of nutrients at once and to sleep easy, knowing that I am checking a lot of important boxes. So, each morning, AG1. That's just, like brushing my teeth, part of the routine. It's also NSF certified for sports, so professional athletes trust it to be safe.

• 2:07Tim Ferriss?

  And each pouch of AG1 contains exactly what is on the Label does not contain harmful levels of microbes or heavy metals and is free of 280 banned substances. It's the ultimate nutritional supplement in one easy scoop. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drinkag1, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out.

• 2:49Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Shopify, one of my absolute favorite companies, and they make some of my favorite products. Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide, and I've known the team since 2008 or 2009. But prior to that, I wish I had personally had Shopify in the early 2000s when I was running my own e-commerce business. I tell that story in the Four Hour Work Week, but the tools then were absolutely atrocious, and I could only dream of a platform like Shopify. In fact, it was you guys, my dear readers, who introduced me to Shopify when I polled all of you about best e-commerce platforms around 2009, and they've only become better and better since. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or getting ready for your IPO, Shopify is the only tool

• 3:34Tim Ferriss?

  you need to start, run, and grow your business without the struggle. Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. Doesn't matter if you're selling satin sheets from Shopify's in-person POS system or offering organic olive oil on Shopify's all-in-one e-commerce platform. However you interact with your customers, you're covered. And once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the internet's best converting checkout to help you turn browsers into buyers. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, and Shopify is truly a global force as the e-commerce solution behind Allbirds, Rothy's, Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across more than 170 countries. Plus, Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way if you have questions.

• 4:18Tim Ferriss?

  This is possibility powered by Shopify. So check it out. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify, that's S-H-O-P-I-F-Y, Shopify.com/tim. Go to Shopify.com/tim to take your business to the next level today. One more time, all lowercase, Shopify.com/tim.

• 4:40Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 4:46Speaker 02

  No, we're the same at a big time.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 5:03Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to sit down with world-class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives. This episode is a two-for-one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about, and passed 1 billion downloads. To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favorites, from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes. And internally, we've been calling these the super combo episodes because my goal is to encourage you to, yes,

• 5:46Tim Ferriss?

  enjoy the household names, the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser-known people I consider stars. These are people who have transformed my life, and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle. Perhaps you missed an episode. Just trust me on this one. We went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests, you can find that and more at tim.blog/combo. And now, without further ado, please enjoy, and thank you for listening.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  First up, Chris Sacca, co-founder of Lower Carbon Capital, investing in solutions to the climate crisis, co-founder of Lowercase Capital, early investor in Twitter, Uber, Instagram, Twilio, Blue Bottle Coffee, and Stripe, recurring guest investor on ABC's Shark Tank, and one of the youngest people to ever make the Forbes Midas List. You can learn more about Chris at lowercasecapital.com.

• 6:53Chris Sacca?

  As I look at all the most successful founders I've backed, the thing they have is inevitability of success. There are no conditional statements coming out of their mouths. There's no like, "Well, if it works, it would be rad." Instead, it's just always... You talked to Kevin System at Instagram when he was working on it himself. He was literally a sole guy working on the product. And he's like, "So when we get to 50 million users, we'll roll out this other stuff." And you're just like, "Wait." He's just peering into the future, kind of looking through you into something in the future. And you're just like, "I gotta get along for the ride with this guy." The same thing when you talk to Evan Williams. When it comes to talking about the likelihood of success of his products,

• 7:38Chris Sacca?

  he just knows. Like, he just knew Twitter would be a big thing. You talk to Patrick and John Collison at Stripe, and of course, they're building for this thing to be a big dominant company, and it just will be. You've spent time with Travis. You're an investor in Uber. Was there any doubt at any time that Uber would dominate the planet? Yeah, no doubt. There's no doubt.

• 8:00Tim Ferriss?

  Can you just share, there's an anecdote. I think we probably talked about Uber drinks at some point, but Wii Tennis.

• 8:05Chris Sacca?

  Wii Tennis with Travis, Wii Tennis?

• 8:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, could you tell the story?

• 8:08Chris Sacca?

  So it's a few years ago, we're up at my house, and you know, we live up in the mountains in Truckee. It was over the holidays, so my parents were there. I think it was actually New Year's Day. So Travis and I had been, we have a tradition up there on New Year's Eve. We go snowshoeing at midnight and drink champagne out in the meadow and stuff. So I think we were pretty, it was a pretty rough morning. But Travis is sitting on the couch, and my dad senses some weakness, and he challenges him to a game of Wii Tennis. So on the Nintendo Wii. My dad's not a bad player. He's pretty good. Travis is like, "Okay, Mr. Saka, sure." And he picks up the controller, and they play the first couple of games. And they're tight games, but Travis wins them. And my dad is there taking like full swings with the paddle, you know? It's like breaking a little sweat.

• 8:51Chris Sacca?

  And Travis is still blurry from the night before, barely breaking his wrist. And he's beating my dad right in the head. He's like, "What the hell is this?" And then there was that Inigo Montoya moment, Princess Bride style. Travis turns to my dad and says, "I'm sorry, but I'm not left-handed." Or, you know, I forget if it's left or right, but he switches hands with the controller. And the next three games, my dad never touches the ball. There were no points scored on any of Travis's serves. And I was like, "What the hell is going on? Like, what is this?"

• 9:20Chris Sacca?

  After the torture got to be too much, Travis just says, let me take you to the global leaderboard. I'm sorry, I got, you know, I'm a sack, I didn't mean to be holding out on you. Goes to the global leaderboard and Travis Kalanick was ranked number two in the world at We Tennis.

• 9:34Tim Ferriss?

  In his spare time.

• 9:35Chris Sacca?

  Now Uber was already a thing then, like that literally, he was already building a startup, but he's just so obsessive, so competitive. And that's the thing is we look across the portfolio at all the most kick ass companies. It's something they just have right up front is that they're not hoping and praying for success. They know what's going to happen.

• 9:55Tim Ferriss?

  What I think is really interesting about Uber in particular is, and for those people who don't know, I was an early advisor to Uber, so I'm biased, obviously, in a lot of ways when I talk about it.

• 10:05Chris Sacca?

  But I think you actually got there before me.

• 10:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I was pre-seed money advisor because I'd been an advisor at Stumble Upon and had worked with Garrett. And I'm now working again, collaborating with him on expo, which is super fun. But in the beginning, the way that Uber got dismissed, and I think this is a really common, common mistake, it seems that a lot of investors make is people said, oh my God, really? Like black cars for one percenters in San Francisco? What's the market for that? And they viewed a very niche activity as by definition constrained to say one percenters in San Francisco and New York. And if you look at, let's say even recycling, it started out that way. They kind of confused the first target with the total market. And they also looked at just the available market, which they misdefined very early on.

• 10:50Tim Ferriss?

  You know, in the case of like an Airbnb or an Uber, they can grow the market beyond any comparable that's available. I mean, a lot of these start off so incredibly niche that people misread the market potential, I think. What books or resources outside of personal relationships and these mentors that you've had, the compliments and so on, are there any particular books or resources that have helped you become a better investor?

• 11:13Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, I think most of those, though, are not business books per se. That's perfect. Because, so I didn't get a business degree. I didn't do an MBA. I took a couple of classes and it was enough to show me it was a total farce. I did get a law degree, which is an even bigger farce, but that's for another episode. So I never had formal business training. And I tried to look at a few of those, like instant MBA books and stuff like that. I even bought some books on venture capital and they're just such a, so goofy. And by the way, part of that is because now we have so many great venture capitalist bloggers who are just an open book about the industry who teach it. So Brad Feld comes to mind first. Fantastic. A longtime friend and mentor, Brad at Feld Thoughts,

• 11:55Chris Sacca?

  has done series over the years where he breaks down each aspect of a term sheet, how to understand it and the deal documents. And this is what we think is important and these are things we think could go away. Josh Koppman and his team have done a lot of work on that. We've now seen Y Combinator and the guys at Fenwick and West and Cooley building templated documents that are really, really watered down and pro entrepreneur and just kind of have taken out a lot of the legacy bullshit that didn't need to be in those documents. There's a lot of this learning that can happen now without having to buy books while having to go to school. And so that's been fantastic. But where I worry about the valley and about investors as well as our entrepreneurs is in the development of everything off the ball a little bit.

• 12:37Chris Sacca?

  So you and I, I just turned 40 this week. That's why you're here. Happy birthday again. But, but as a 40 year old, the people my age who were computer science majors in college, that was a major just like any other major. They still had to go get a summer job. They mowed lawns, waited tables. They had time in their curriculum to go study abroad, to volunteer. They had these really well-rounded lives. And so, working with people my age and older at Google who are computer scientists was great because they had not just these amazing, amazing math and science skills, but a diversity of experience that informed great product decisions as well as just collegiality.

• 13:17Chris Sacca?

  What ended up happening is computer science degrees got so popular and so valuable that those kids didn't have to pay for school much anymore. And their only work experience was like TA-ing a class, not actually getting their ass kicked digging ditches or anything. And the curriculum was rigorous enough that these guys didn't get to go study abroad. And there was no opportunity to go do volunteer work and live in the developing world at all. So as a result, I actually found we were starting to have a generation of not just entitled, you know, people talk about the entitlement of millennials when it comes to workout things and stuff, but they weren't just entitled, but they just had such narrow band perspectives on the world. They were missing empathy. So they weren't able to put themselves in the shoes of the folks they might be building

• 14:02Chris Sacca?

  a product for, what the problems of a world might be. And so I am constantly looking for opportunities for myself and for the founders we work with to broaden the scope that they have on the world such that they can build something on a more informed basis, an emotionally informed basis. So I really think empathy isn't, it's a word that's been kind of reduced to signal like, oh, somebody hurt their foot and I feel bad for them. Instead, I think much more poignantly, empathy is about can I see the world through that person's lens? Can I figure out what matters to them? What are they afraid of? What's bothering them? What do they think is limiting them right now? What's their hope?

• 14:44Chris Sacca?

  And if I can do that, then it's a lot easier for me to build something for them and to sell it to them and to help them and to build a longer term partnership with that person.

• 14:53Tim Ferriss?

  If you were giving a assignment to folks for books or experiences, just kind of a short list for people who want to develop that type of empathy, what would you put on the list?

• 15:06Chris Sacca?

  One of my favorite books that we give to most founders is Not Fade Away. I think it's like-

• 15:13Tim Ferriss?

  The belly flop pick on the cover.

• 15:14Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, belly flop pick. A short life well-lived, story of Peter Barton. So first of all, just on a personal note, that guy's trajectory kind of followed mine. He was a ski bum who suddenly made it big and tack. He was on the board of Yahoo, he worked at Liberty Media. And then he hits his 40s and says, okay, I've accomplished what I want to accomplish. I'm dialing it back. I just want to spend time with my family. And at that point, and this isn't a spoiler, it's literally how the book starts. He finds out it is incurable stomach cancer. And so the book walks you through his biography as well as the remaining time in his life. You will cry reading this book. It is inevitable. If you don't, I'm very worried about you. But you'll definitely cry. It'll be cathartic. But it's the kind of thing where you, it's an exercise in, okay, what's on the mind of the person who's dying?

• 15:59Chris Sacca?

  And how is he thinking about the impact of his death on his family? On his friends? On his business partners? On his legacy? On the continuing responsibilities as a dad, even in the absence of, you know, even though he's passed on in the next life? And it's an entire exercise in perspectives. And I think that book will not only leave you feeling incredibly lucky for what we've got here and where we are, but at the same time, will sharpen that sense of how do I put myself in somebody else's shoes? A similar book that I love, I'm gonna get the title wrong. I think it's How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia.

• 16:38Tim Ferriss?

  I remember you told me about this.

• 16:39Chris Sacca?

  This book is amazing. So it's written in the second person, which I don't know of another book like that, but it's just you, you, you. Like you wake up in this room, like an old role player or something like that online.

• 16:51Tim Ferriss?

  Dungeons and Dragons.

• 16:52Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, Wolfenstein. You are in a room. There is a sarcophagus. Open sarcophagus. No, it's a, but it says you wake up and you basically start the book in a slum in Pakistan. And it's just writing you about how you go through your day and the things that matter to you. And it turns out you're kind of entrepreneurial and you're willing to take some risks. And so you start working into other stations in life. And I don't want to give anything else about the book away, but.

• 17:22Chris Sacca?

  You close that book and you feel like you've walked through 15 to 20 different lives in another world. And I just think more of that would be better for all of us. I think it'd be better for our industry, for the depth and the impact of the products we build. I think it'd just be a lot better for getting along with each other. So, I mean, you and I have traveled to Ethiopia together doing work with Charity Water. It's hard to complain about a day's work back here in the United States when you have been in a village where they walk three to four hours each way to get water, where the kids are dying because they drink the same water that the cow poops into, where the women don't get an opportunity to go to school because they're carrying the water

• 18:04Chris Sacca?

  and on the way they might get eaten by a lion or raped. And it's really hard to find yourself complaining about our privileged US life. And that's something you could just tell. Working in a big company like Google, there were the people who would bitch and complain. And I'm like, really? Really? This is a hard day. Microsoft launched a competitive product and that's our horrible day. And I just think we'd all be much better off if we were able to find opportunities for our CS students to go study abroad, for our MBAs to actually spend some time around poor people and to start building these more diverse perspectives.

• 18:37Tim Ferriss?

  When you look back on, it's the big 4-0. When you were 30, who came to mind most when you thought of the word "successful"? And now at 40, who is the person who most comes to mind when you think of the word "successful"?

• 18:50Chris Sacca?

  So 30, that's a really, let me think of where I was. So I guess, oh, I was at Google at the time. Who was most successful?

• 18:58Tim Ferriss?

  Just when you were like, "I want to be successful," and the person in your mind who embodied that most?

• 19:03Chris Sacca?

  I always wanted to be at the center of the deal. And so, at that point in my life, I still really admired, for instance, like a John Doerr or Mike Moritz. They were both on the board at Google. Brilliant guys who use their station in life to gather even smarter people to teach them about things. And then they would use their unique talents for storytelling and making composite kind of ideas come true to build companies. They became billionaires as a result. They had great families. They were just well respected by folks. I think I still, that was kind of my definition of success at that point.

• 19:42Chris Sacca?

  At 40, and what I think my journey from 30 to 40 was about was to stop trying to define or build some kind of model or have some kind of role model out there and stop trying to define myself externally because that's a distraction. So there are times when you're doing a deal with John Doerr, you're across the table or somebody you're like, hey, wait, that was fucked up. You know, like, I don't, wait, you're supposed to be my hero, my idol, and I don't like that movie you just made or something like that, right? And I think, you know, anyone I've ever put on a pedestal, I've just been disappointed by doing so. I'm sorry about that, by the way. Yeah. Oh, you have no idea how far you've fallen, Tim. But so I think for me, the exercise has been, how much am I going to define that for myself? Not by looking at somebody else.

• 20:24Chris Sacca?

  I recently got to have dinner with, next to Bill Gates, Bill and Melinda Gates, and I had been raised to hate him, you know, growing up at Google. You know, he's a pretty evil person. And I was sitting next to him there and I got a chance to basically interview him about how they have structured the foundation, how they think about which causes to take on, which challenges to tackle. And, I mean, I walked out of there just deeply admiring their work. But I think I want to limit it to that and not get into like, is he a great family man? Is he, you know, he's still a son of a bitch when it comes to competing with him in software and his default browser and all his antitrust behavior. But I really, so I'm trying to look at people and find kind of one aspect of them that I like.

• 21:07Chris Sacca?

  But for the most part, I've had to decide, okay, what's really important to me? That's my wife and my kids. And you know, I'm just not that social anymore. I just don't hang out with people that much. I don't go to conferences. I'm just not available for dinner. I would infinitely rather spend that time with them. And so that was a priority choice. I had to make it internally, not because I saw anybody else killing it that way. You know, I think I reflected back on my own parents who, who opted out of much more accelerated career paths so they could spend way more time with me and my brother. And so that's a choice I had to make. But I will say, do you know about the journal I found in my?

• 21:41Tim Ferriss?

  I do, and you should, you should mention that. I have a quick, well, observation is if I could spend more time with Crystal instead of me, I would do the same thing. We actually met before you and I met at Fair Tech's Kickboxing way back in the day.

• 21:55Chris Sacca?

  Well, I was having a bunch of people down for cocktails. We came down from trucking into the city, Kristen and I did. I was like, let's get a bunch of people together for cocktails. I invite Tim and Tim walks in and he looks at my girlfriend. He's like, I think I know him. Like, yeah, sure you do, man. Everyone uses that to try and pick up my then girlfriend, now wife. He's like, no. And then she says, yeah, I think I know you too. And I'm like, oh shit, here she goes. Like, I'm gonna.

• 22:15Tim Ferriss?

  Where's this going?

• 22:15Chris Sacca?

  He's such a hunk. What do I have to offer to? But yeah, you guys used to train in kickboxing.

• 22:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. She was hardcore. It was great. But I want to pause for a second. I do want to hear about the notebook for sure, because I think it's amazingly Nostradamus-like, but you and your brother, so you and your brother have had a very different careers, have done very well respectively. What did your parents do that you are also trying to do with your kids?

• 22:40Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. So my brother, Brian Saka, he's one of the first YouTube sketch stars. He parlayed that into, he sold some of the first web series ever, made shit ton of money building web series and finding commercial partners for them and stuff.

• 22:54Tim Ferriss?

  Has been in movies like Wolf of Wall Street?

• 22:56Chris Sacca?

  Wolf of Wall Street with Scorsese recently. And then just yesterday, we're allowed to talk about this now, his series on TBS got picked up. So he's going to be a co-star of a comedy series on TBS. Pretty funny. So what did our parents do? Well, first of all, they were just always involved. So my parents took vacations with us. We always went to national parks together. We never went to resort type places. We were just always together. And not only did they read with us like most parents, but my mom would pull us out of school to take us to go see an author read at a bookstore an hour and a half away.

• 23:31Chris Sacca?

  She would literally just pull us out of school to go to a science museum. And so she was a college professor. And so she had a little flexibility in her schedule to anchor us out. She would take us to a park called Art Park in Lewiston, New York.

• 23:43Tim Ferriss?

  Art Park?

• 23:44Chris Sacca?

  Art Park. It's a state park in New York State in Lewiston, New York, where the whole thing is dedicated to different art media. And so you can paint there, you can blow glass, you can watch a performing arts troupe, kind of vaudeville and theater and stuff. And in my parents' eyes, that was just as or even maybe more important than going to the public school. And so I think that kind of enrichment and. Just being shown that people in all these walks of life were important and fascinating. You know, I grew up where by the time I got to college, I had never heard of an investment banker. I didn't know that was a job. I'd been exposed to, to writers, to artists, to chefs, to musicians, to engineers, to lots of teachers, to lawyers, to doctors.

• 24:29Chris Sacca?

  But it was never, you know, it wasn't necessarily driven in any particular way to kind of get us to a particular career at all. I will say there was something else my parents did that's pretty unique and it was called a, my brother and I referred to as a sweet and sour summer. So my parents would send us for the- Sounds like a Chinese restaurant. They would, yeah. They would send us for the first half of the summer to an internship with a relative or friend of the family who had an interesting job. So at 12, I went interned with a, my godbrother, who was a lobbyist in DC. So I would go along with him to pitch congressman. I had one tie and for work, I was a pretty good writer, so I'd write up one-page summaries of the bills we were pitching. And I would literally sit there with these congressmen with these filthy miles, you know, the Alabama senator and stuff like that,

• 25:14Chris Sacca?

  and watch the pitch happen. And it was awesome. I learned so much. I think I built so much confidence and really honed my storytelling skills. But then from there, I would come home and work in a construction outfit with just a nasty, nasty job. I mean, whether it was hosing off the equipment that had been used to fix septic systems, gassing shit up, dragging shit around the yard, filling propane tanks, just being junior guy on the potomtoon, quite literally getting my ass kicked by whichever parolee was angry at me that day, you know, for minimum wage. I think it was part of their master plan, which is there's a world of cool opportunities out there for you, but let's build within you a sense of not just work ethic, but also a little kick in the ass by why you don't want to end up in one of these real jobs.

• 26:00Chris Sacca?

  And so let's see if you can find in yourself the drive to go and do whatever it is to-

• 26:05Tim Ferriss?

  And did they choose, for instance, you had the introduction to say the God Brother, I think you said, for the lobbying. Did they also help organize the sour part two to each summer?

• 26:16Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, so that the guy ran that construction company and equipment rental company is my dad's best friend. He was under strict orders to make sure we had the roughest day there.

• 26:24Tim Ferriss?

  Special treatment.

• 26:25Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, it was, yeah, we were treated specially shittily. So we were hammered there. And by the way, as a result, I know a lot about construction equipment. This is, this is a superpower of mine. I can literally from air compressors to ditch witches to anything you need in Milwaukee sawzalls. I literally have incredible amounts of knowledge in that space.

• 26:47Tim Ferriss?

  It also just reminded me of something you mentioned long ago, and I'm not sure if it's still true, but you said one of the things that you look for, and it's maybe not a disqualifier, but in founders is a track record of having had at least one shitty job.

• 27:00Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. Well, I particularly look for that in hiring. So I want people who've lived, studied, traveled extensively abroad. I want people who've been exposed to poor people. And by the way, the live, study, travel works essentially abroad is because you can get away with a very comfortable life in the United States as an English speaker, particularly as a white person. You never really have to ask for anybody's help. You're not being harassed by the police. It's a pretty easy pickings. You find yourself overseas, particularly in a place with a non-romance language where you can't make out the signs yourself, and you have to stop and ask for help from complete strangers. You literally have to be entirely vulnerable to people you've never met and just expose yourself. And they could send you into a dark alley and beat the hot out of you and take your money. Or like most people

• 27:45Chris Sacca?

  on the planet, they'll be really nice and try to help you, even if you don't share a word of English in common. And I think there is something incredibly formative about that experience of having the humility that comes from having asked for help. The best managers in the world are people who are great at asking for help and realizing that makes them a more powerful CEO than a less powerful CEO, or more powerful manager than a less powerful manager. And so. I look for people for whom athletics is a big part of their life. I don't think it needs to be team sports necessarily. I think you can be a great individual athlete. You know, maybe you train with other folks, et cetera. But I think it just shows not only some self-discipline, but also just a value on the introspection that comes with athletics. You actually care about yourself. And I think there's a little bit more balance in that life.

• 28:27Tim Ferriss?

  It also teaches you to contend with losing and sort of viewing that as feedback and not some type of failure death sentence.

• 28:35Chris Sacca?

  Sure. And then seeing, I think, the temporary and how temporary pain is, you know.

• 28:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's temporary. Glorious forever.

• 28:42Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, no, it's true. So I did an Ironman and when I was doing that in the, I had a fever that day. A hundred and three degree fever. But my parents had traveled out to watch the race and so I didn't want to not do it. And the Advil worked for like the swim and the first part of the bike. And then I was just, I was a mess. But I remember thinking, no matter what happens, I will be in my bed tonight. And, you know, this is a very, very temporary moment. In 2009, I rode my bike across the country. And I remember, you know, it was 35 days of riding, basically 100 miles a day. I remember multiple days out there, I'm like, I will be in my bed tonight. And then in the other ear is this voice, and then I have to fucking do it again tomorrow.

• 29:23Tim Ferriss?

  Tell people about this notebook.

• 29:25Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, it was funny. It was just, just two years ago, I found this in my garage and it's really, it's been weighing on me and particularly this week, turning 40. So I was 19, now I was 20 years old, actually. I was 20. I was living in Ireland, going to school there. I spent two out of my four years abroad while at the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown. And so I'm living in Ireland and there was an expat girl in one of my classes. And we were basically flirting with each other by taking a notebook and writing in 10 questions for the other person to answer. And then you get, you get it back and you answer 10 questions and write 10 new questions. We'd pass it back and forth while we were supposed to be studying like 20th century Irish film or something like that. And at one point, one of the questions was, what do you want to be when you grow up?

• 30:10Chris Sacca?

  So I'm 20, I'm living in Cork, Ireland. We, we basically would start drinking stout around 11:30 a.m. every day. It was like second and third meal was stout. And By that point, I'd still never heard of investment banker. I definitely never heard of venture capitalist. And so I just write in there, I said, I don't know what the, what the job is called, but I know it's going to involve a lot of talking on the phone, a lot of negotiating, a lot of yelling at people. High risk, high reward, unbelievably high stakes. I'm going to do it part-time from the mountains, part-time from the beach. And whatever it is, I'm going to be done with it before I'm 40. And so two years ago, my wife and I are standing in our garage in our mountain house,

• 30:55Chris Sacca?

  cleaning it out because we're moving some stuff down to our beach house. And I find this old notebook and I'm like, hey, look at this. And we're flipping through it and I find that answer. I just really choked up. It was incredibly weird self prophecy that I kind of laid out exactly what my job was. But I also felt a certain amount of pressure like, so what do I do now that I'm 40? Do I keep doing this job or not? Or do I need to, do I need to listen to the scrolls?

• 31:24Tim Ferriss?

  Like shatter some type of cosmic continuum if you, if you don't follow the prophecy. What would your advice be to college students who are just about to graduate? Who have no idea kind of what they should focus on, what they should do? Do you have any thoughts, general suggestions that you would make to someone in that position?

• 31:40Chris Sacca?

  Well, I did give a graduation speech. I think it was two years ago now at the University of Minnesota School. I didn't really have any ties to, and they reached out to an agent who hired me for it. And that was daunting, right? Cause I give speeches all the time and it's usually to a room full of like Conoco executives in Kissimmee, Florida. And I'm just there for the check. But a graduation speech is intense. That's hopefully memorable, hopefully formative. Hopefully you're talking to people who have incredibly open minds and it's such a meaningful transition point in their lives. So. Everyone should go watch it, but what I focused on was be interesting. I think you're here for a week where I've gathered my favorite friends.

• 32:22Chris Sacca?

  And one of the reasons why the week is so fun for everybody is that everyone else here is totally interesting. Right? Not necessarily a titan of a business, but just interesting, compassionate, adventuresome people who just go for it, who are up for it. And I think as I look around who I've hired, who I like to work with, who I back, they're interesting. They're people you want to be around, you want to spend time with, you want to hear their answers, you want them to influence your thinking. You want them to push you a little bit to try things that you haven't tried, you want them to teach you. And if I could give advice to someone who feels like they're looking at a maze of opportunities and none of them is particularly presented, or they're not sure how they want to get ahead or distinguish themselves.

• 33:06Chris Sacca?

  I think pursuing a course of life that embraces interestingness. And by the way, I don't think people are born interesting. I think it's actually something you can accrue. Living abroad, volunteering for a group like Charity Water and going into the field, taking an actual service job, going in and talking to the people around you and having meaningful conversations, including the homeless people, including your neighbors and people who are actually working for wage, getting involved in politics briefly. You know, I think I campaigned for Obama a couple of times. And I was everything from one of his top fundraisers to I actually spent time in the field in Alco, Nevada, which put me into mobile home living rooms of some of the poorest people in the country,

• 33:51Chris Sacca?

  who somehow are supporting the Republican Party in that election. And it was surreal, but it gave me a life perspective that I don't think I would have had otherwise. So I think those kinds of things make for much more compelling people and will start to present career opportunities.

• 34:06Tim Ferriss?

  So one question that I'd love to ask is when you were sort of in your most recent sweet spot of wealth accumulation, whether that was related to what you did with Twitter or otherwise, were there any particular shifts or routines, habits that helped you sort of maintain that peak output or achieve what you did?

• 34:24Chris Sacca?

  I mean, you know, my personal story, so I've certainly been fortunate to make a bunch of money in the last few years, but. In Bubble One, I made a bunch of money, levered up, lost it all and a lot more, leaving me millions of dollars in the hole, was able to work it back out to zero by 2005. And since then, you know, a lot of work, a few ups and downs, but it's worked out pretty well. And it's looking good for the road ahead, too. So, that said, I don't think I have a calendaring function, or an email function, or anything like that, that's like a hack. As much as, I would point to two things that I think shifted the nature of my business. One was, that before I had really made any money at all, and before I had any business

• 35:05Chris Sacca?

  doing this, my then-girlfriend, who's now my wife, Crystal, and I moved out of Silicon Valley up to Truckee. I mean, literally took ourselves out of the game, as a, you know, an angel and venture investor. Like, how do you, how do you manage a venture practice from up in Lake Tahoe? And yet, what I realized was that, being in the city, I was just playing defense the whole time. I was taking these coffee meetings, listening to these poor pitches, being friendly and kind of obliging people with their ideas, but I'd spend all day in these meetings, and I'd get home and I'd be like, shit, I haven't actually accomplished anything. I would go to the cocktail and dinner parties I was invited to, but they weren't actually the people I wanted to spend the time with.

• 35:47Chris Sacca?

  I was just reacting to everything, rather than actually going out and playing offense. And so, Crystal and I moved up to Tahoe, and we've quite literally built a list of people we wanted to know better. And we just started inviting them to come up and stay with us in Tahoe. You were definitely one of those people, right? And you came up and spent a lot of time with us there. I also started writing lists of the companies that I wanted to get to know better, and I just went in deep with them and asked them to come up to Tahoe. And so, I was playing offense now. And I had a perfect excuse for why I couldn't get coffee with all the randoms. I'm like, hey, I'm sorry, I'm just not in San Francisco, I'm three hours away. There were a couple obsessives who drove all the way up there, but for the most part, I was able to pick and choose the interactions that I thought were going to be most valuable

• 36:31Chris Sacca?

  to me, to my wife, and to my business. And that was a huge shift. And it was risky as hell, because, I mean, I couldn't even really afford the house we bought up there when we first bought it, $600,000, three-bedroom house. And I certainly didn't have a strong enough brand that I could afford to just walk away from the game. But I made a conscious decision to play offense from up there. And that worked out.

• 36:58Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Momentous. Momentus offers high-quality supplements and products across a broad spectrum of categories, including sports performance, sleep, cognitive health, hormone support, and more. I've been testing their products for months now, and I have a few that I use constantly. Personally, I've been using Momentous Mag 3-8, L-theanine, and apigenin, all of which have helped me to improve the onset quality and duration of my sleep. Now, the Momentous Sleep Pack conveniently delivers single servings of all three of these ingredients. Momentus also partners with some of the best minds in human performance to bring world-class

• 37:39Tim Ferriss?

  products to market, including a few you will recognize from this podcast, like Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr. Kelly Starrett. Their products contain high-quality ingredients that are third-party tested, which in this case means informed Sport and/or NSF certified, so you can trust that what is on the label is in the bottle and nothing else. So, check it out. Visit livemomentous.com/tim and use code TIM at checkout for 20% off. That's livemomentus, L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash TIM and code TIM for 20% off.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  And now, Scott Glenn, whose acting career spans nearly 60 years in film, including starring roles in Apocalypse Now, Urban Cowboy, The Right Stuff, The Hunt for Red October, The Silence of the Lambs, and The Bourne Ultimatum, and television, including HBO's The Leftovers and The White Lotus, Hulu's Castle Rock, and Marvel's Daredevil and The Defenders.

• 38:43Tim Ferriss?

  I have an embarrassment of riches here. We could start just about anywhere, but I thought I would start with saying that I'm in part so happy to be having this conversation because... Even among all of the hundreds of people I've interviewed, if you look at people in their 30s and 40s, they don't check career, fitness and relationships, but you seem to have 50-plus years checking all three of those boxes. It's hard to find three out of three in the young guns who have sort of wide open field ahead of them. And I want to dig into that, but I thought I would start with Idaho, because we're sitting here in your home. It's been a long

• 39:24Tim Ferriss?

  time since I've been here. And you have elk in the backyard. This is not what most people imagine when they think Hollywood star. How did you end up in Idaho?

• 39:36Speaker 05

  A bunch of years ago. So we've been up here for, I'm not sure the exact number, but in the mid to high 40 years. We were living in LA. My wife is, probably throws on the wheel as well as any two dozen people on the planet. She's really a good daughter. She was accepted to a summer workshop, was invitation only, to the best ceramic artists in this country. And it was going to last all summer long. And we were living in LA. We had a place in Topanga. So she said, we had a VW van, typical hippie dippy, live out of the back of it. She

• 40:17Speaker 05

  was going up with our two daughters to do this workshop. And she said, well, you're going to come with me. And I went, no, I, you know, I'm waiting for the phone to ring to tell me whether I've got a job or not. And she said, does the phone really have to ring for you to kick you in your ass to go anywhere? Can't you just do something on your own? And I went, I don't know. And she said, well, you can, because there's a group of people who are leaving from

• 40:48Speaker 05

  But a place she wasn't sure where, as it turns out, was Chalice, Idaho. That they're leaving on the following dates, which was like a week after her workshop started. She said they're going into an area called the Bighorn Crags. They're the biggest primitive area in the contiguous United States, bigger than anywhere except Alaska. And they're gonna be doing high mountain, this is in July, they're gonna be doing high mountain traverses in snow and ice for three days. Then they're gonna be going down into a little valley and climbing rock faces and naming them for the geodesic survey. It's being led by a guy named Eric Ryback, who's the first, at that time, the only person

• 41:29Speaker 05

  ever to walk the whole Pacific coast, the trail from Canada down to the bottom of Waha. And she said, "You're going with him." You know, I was a rock climber at the time, so she knew that about me, but I said, "How do you know?" She said, "'Cause I signed you up." (laughing) So it was like I had no choice in the matter. So we got up here, I tend to overdo things physically, it's just part of my stupid personality. So we got here and I started hiking up Baldy. Now, we come from sea level to here, so I got altitude sickness the first day and puked my guts out about four or five times.

• 42:11Speaker 05

  At any rate, I had about a week to try to get ready, and then she drove me north to Chalice. I think there were seven people on this trip with us. So I met Eric Ryback and these people I was gonna be hanging out with for the next few weeks. And we drove 90 miles on a dirt road to the Cobalt Ranger Station, where you didn't tell them where you were going, you just told them when you expected to be back. And if you weren't back inside, I think the cushion was three days, they were gonna send people out to look for you. And at the time, it's probably still true, the Bighorn Crags, no internal combustion allowed at all.

• 42:51Speaker 05

  So if forestry service had to go in and open up trailheads, they had to go in with mules, two-man crosscut saws, because you couldn't turn on a fire. That wouldn't work. So we did that, and it was, I hadn't been off on my own, alone.

• 43:12Speaker 05

  With the exception of once that I won't talk about. But been in that situation and it was just so much fun and so cleansing and so it was just the best. And I thought I knew how to rock climb, but there was a guy named Tony Jones there, who was a great rock climber, who sort of took me under his wing and took me into 511 plus plus stuff. The dangerous stuff, he led all of it. So I don't want to pretend that I just instantly did it. But I did do those climbs again and again. And I remember when Carol was gonna come and pick it when we were done, it was like two weeks and little over two and a half weeks of doing this. I said to Tony, I gotta give you some money or something.

• 43:56Speaker 05

  I mean, you've been giving me, and he said, come on, I had a great time. I said, what can I do for you? And he said, you can do this. When you go back to LA, tell everybody how horrible Idaho is. Tell them it's a tick fever state. It sucks and you had a bad time. And I said, why should I do that? He said, because I don't want people coming up here. So when Carol drove me back into Ketchum, I felt like I was entering lower Manhattan. It was like noise and people and.

• 44:26Tim Ferriss?

  And it's a small town for people.

• 44:27Speaker 05

  It's a small town. But what I discovered, this sounds woo-ah and whatever, but yeah, I don't really give a shit because it's true. It was like the family fell in love with each other again. I had been sort of living in the blues in LA because of what I do for a living and all that fell away up here.

• 44:48Tim Ferriss?

  When you came to Idaho, roughly how old were you and where was your career at that point?

• 44:53Speaker 05

  I was probably 38, 39, like that, late 30s.

• 44:59Tim Ferriss?

  And had you already had a sort of inflection point in your career at that point?

• 45:02Speaker 05

  I had done a ton of work in New York, mainly street theater, improv, off off Broadway. And then we moved to LA for me to do the first film I ever did, which was called Baby Maker. And then I did a couple of sort of very small parts in big, important American movies. One was Nashville, Bob Almond's film. And the other was Apocalypse Now, that I was on for. A little over seven months. They shot that film. It was, the shooting was a year and a half. So I was a short timer at seven months. But that was my experience of working in front of a camera.

• 45:46Speaker 05

  Learning a lot of stuff that stood me in really good stead later on. But what had happened in L.A. was, okay, I had gone to Universal, I think, to audition. I'd done some TV stuff at Universal. And I'd gone there and because of my experience with Apocalypse. What had happened before is I would go in and I would audition for a TV job mainly at one of the studios. And people would tell me what a crappy actor I was. You squint too much. You're not loud enough. You're not doing this. You're not doing that. And on the surface, I would say, well, what do you know? But the reality was underneath it, I suspected maybe they were right.

• 46:30Speaker 05

  And I didn't know what I was doing in terms of a camera. On stage or doing improv in the back of an alley, yeah, I could do that. So I had no self-confidence. And then I did Apocalypse Now and wound up working my choice. Francis thought, I think incorrectly, but he thought that he owed me because he thought I saved his life in the Philippines. So I went over to do a small part and he said, I'll write you whatever you want. Because you filled up a helicopter in a rainstorm with nothing getting in the gas and you kept me from drowning in a river. We might come back to that. Okay, fine. That's nice. He said, what do you want? And I said, I want to be in the end of the movie.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  And he said, you can't be in the end of the movie, Scott. It's absolutely completely cast. Well, yeah, wait, there is a part you could do, but you'd be like a glorified extra. Play Colby, the guy who came at river in front of Martin Sheen. And I understood because of the way I I've learned everything in my life that's important to me is you learn by apprenticeship, not from a book or going to school, at least I can't. And I thought, at the end of the movie, I'm gonna be around the person who, in my mind, is far and away the greatest American, probably the greatest movie actor that ever lived, Marlon Brando, and I'm gonna be around this guy.

• 47:57Speaker 05

  And just being around him, and Dennis Hopper, who's a lunatic, but brilliant, and Martin Sheen, and in the end of this movie, is an experience that will change my life, and it did. I told Francis later on that I got the greatest gift you could give any artist in in the Philippines, which was self-confidence. So I, when I came back, before we went up to Idaho, I was basically locked out of Universal because, along with self-confidence, I came back with a huge amount of arrogance. And now, I remember I did one audition, and they said, you know, you're not really very good, we wanna give you things to work on, and I said, what the fuck do you know? Who have you worked with?

• 48:42Speaker 05

  Because I was just doing improvs and worked with Marlon Brando, Victorio Storaro, Francis Coppola, Dennis Hopper, and they accepted me as an equal. What have you done? You've done this and this, you can't even fucking direct traffic. So they kicked me out of Universal. So now we're back from Idaho. Yeah. And I'm sitting, watching television, smoking a joint, and Carol walks into the living room and says, babe, what's wrong? And I say, what do you mean? I'm fine. She said, no, you're crying. And I reached up, and there were tears coming out of my eyes. I was on television in a Beretta I had done, and I pointed at her and I said, you're supposed to get better at what you do, not worse.

• 49:26Speaker 05

  That's the crappiest acting I've ever seen. I was so much better doing street theater in New York. What's happened to me? And I started thinking... And that night at dinner, I said, you know, what I've turned into in L.A., and I'm horrible at it, is a show business politician, which is, what am I up for? Who do I know? What openings and parties can I go to to network and make? And I used to think, what makes this person tick? Why are they doing what they do? What belief system are they coming from? All that stuff that I really cared about then and do to this day. And I said to Carol, I said, well, how would you and the girls feel if we moved back to Idaho?

• 50:11Speaker 05

  And she said, what do you do up there? And I said, I met somebody who told me that if I gave him three years, he would apprentice me to be a backcountry, cross-country ski guide and hunting guide. And I'll do that. And she said, will you quit acting? I said, no, I'll do Shakespeare in the Park and Boise if I can get a part. I'll do that kind of stuff. But I can't go back to New York with my two daughters this young and subject them to the life of a street actor. So we came up here with that in mind. It was a super cold year. We came up with a friend of Carol's of mine.

• 50:53Speaker 05

  He was a commercial director, but sort of feeling the same kind of burnout in L.A. that I felt. So the two families decided we'd come up here and try to figure out what to do in Ketchum, Idaho. No real idea. We were up here. Inside two weeks, I get a call from a friend of mine, a guy named Rupert Hitzig, who said, I'm doing a movie in, uh, in Mexico. The way I knew Rupert was he and I were in the same platoon in the Marine Corps. So Roop said, I'm producing a movie in Mexico, and I can give you a small part in it. We'll be shooting for three months. And I got like, I think it was, I can give you 2,000 bucks. And I said, great. So Carol and I went to Mexico.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  And I was warned when I went down there. It starred Rod Steiger, Burt Lancaster, Amanda Plummer, and Diane Lane. Those were the stars. And I had a teeny tiny little part as one of Burt's. It was the Duel and Dalton Gang, Western. And I was told by a lot of people when I went down there that you're gonna love Rod Steiger. He works the same way you do. He's a member of the Actors Studio. And you're kinda guy, but watch out for Burt Lancaster. He's an old school movie star. He'll get in your key light. He'll screw you up. He'll intentionally ruin two shots so they'll have to go to his close up. Just watch out for him. So we go to Mexico.

• 52:20Speaker 05

  First day there, El Presidente Lobby Hotel in Mexico. I meet Rod Steiger and I rarely openly dislike somebody when I meet them. But I wouldn't say it was hate at first sight, but it was certainly dislike at first sight. And then a little bit later, Burt Lancaster comes into the lobby. And to be really honest, he hardly saw me at all, but he's, boy, did he see Carol. And he said to her, so what do you do? And she said, I'm a potter. He said, you got any pictures? And she says she has some little slide pictures of stuff she'd done. He looked at them and I could see something change in him.

• 53:03Speaker 05

  And he looked at her and he said, God, this, I love this stuff. I only have the work of one other ceramic artist. Would you throw me 11 place or 12 place dinnerware set? It was her first commission ever and she said, yeah, yeah, I will. Later on, many months later, she found out the other ceramic artist that he owned was named Picasso.

• 53:27Speaker 05

  Wow. So the next day, and he kind of, it was like I wasn't even there. So the next day, we're on the set, getting ready to do some scene. It's a group shot. At the end of the first take, Burt walks over to me and he said, So Scott, has anybody ever taught you the difference between working with a close up camera lens and being onstage? He said, I know you've done street theater, I can tell. I said, no. He said, I didn't think so. He said, you know, I'm not gonna bullshit you. I seriously was watching you and I think you've got something, but. If you'll permit me to be a gigantic pain in the ass over the next three months, I'll teach you whatever I know.

• 54:08Tim Ferriss?

  Wow, what an incredible opportunity.

• 54:10Speaker 05

  So he taught me about how to work with a camera and how to, I mean, he was an amazing guy. He was an aerialist who traveled across the country with a carnival and to make drinking money fought people in Tough Man Con. He was the real deal. I love, it was like what people had told me about Roddenberg was like we could flip him around.

• 54:34Tim Ferriss?

  It's totally flipped.

• 54:35Speaker 05

  So on the way home, this is a long.

• 54:37Tim Ferriss?

  We got all the time in the world after my coffee.

• 54:40Speaker 05

  So we're coming back from Mexico. We went to Paramount to see a friend of Carol's and mine that on their advice, Carol got pregnant. They said, you guys have got to have a baby. And we were really close. Jim was the director, Jim Bridges, and Jack Larson was his partner, lover, whatever. And they were great guys, super great guys. So we went to just say hi to him on our way back to Idaho. We walk into his office. He looks at me, he said, I can't believe you're coming in here. He said, I just realized you're perfect for this part in this movie I'm directing. It's the bad guy, but you're perfect for it. Just hang

• 55:24Speaker 05

  around town for two or three more days. Meet the star who has cast approval. Didn't tell me who it was, who has cast approval and the producers here at Paramount, and I think we can make this happen. And I said, screw that. I don't go into anybody's office like a piece of meat anymore. I just made 2,000 bucks. And we're on our way back to Idaho. I just wanted to tell you I love you and I hope you and Jack are well and Carol and I are out of here. So we left. We came back up to Idaho. About two weeks later, maybe a little less, I get a call from Jim and he said, okay, now I'm on location in Houston. Paramount doesn't know who you are. They don't want you to, they want Ryan O'Neal to do this part or maybe Sam Shepard.

• 56:09Speaker 05

  But I'm gonna send you a plane ticket to come down here. I think we can make this work. I've told Irving Azoff, the music guy who's also producer about you, and he likes the idea. You gotta meet him. I think we can make this happen. And I said, no. Don't send me a plane ticket. I don't want them to have their hooks into me, even for a plane ticket. Just to feel indebted. I'll get my GMC Jimmy. I'll drive to Houston. I'll see you down there. And I said, just tell me what the part is. And he said, a bank robber and a bull rider. And I went, okay. So I drive down to Houston. On my way to Houston, I stop off

• 56:50Speaker 05

  just in front of Huntsville Prison, where I knew the the character I played spent some time. And I'm gonna be a little shady about this, because I kinda have to be. But so I'm sitting there in my Jimmy, and I hear familiar voices out of the dark saying, hey, Vato, what are you doing? And I look over and there, when he was alive, in another part of my life, I knew Freddie Fender, the country western singer. All right. Whose real name was Baldi Marqueta. And Freddie was in a family that picked everything illegally. That was his background. And he hung out with these two guys who were for real pistoleros, the real deal.

• 57:34Speaker 05

  And these two guys were there. And they said, what are you doing here, man? And I told them what I was doing. They went, we don't believe this. We got our buddy coming out. He will be out of here in fifteen, twenty minutes. You gotta meet him. He's a bank robber and a bull rider. And I went, yeah, Mexican guy. He said, no, man, he's a fucking gringo. And I went, okay. So I met this guy who told me enough about the character that I was gonna be playing. And little things, like he said, you gotta get a hat sticker or something, not a tattoo, but something on you that says thirteen and a half, because that's the number that gets us in here, and we all have it.

• 58:17Speaker 05

  And I said, what's that stand for? And he said, judge, jury, and a half-assed lawyer.

• 58:23Speaker 05

  So I said, okay. And he said, you gotta get tattoos on your forearm, nuestra familia. I said, but I'm not a Latino. He said, neither am I. And showed me that he had that.

• 58:35Tim Ferriss?

  What did that refer to? Our family? Like, what was the?

• 58:38Speaker 05

  That's the in-prison organization of Latinos.

• 58:42Tim Ferriss?

  I see, I see.

• 58:42Speaker 05

  That.

• 58:43Tim Ferriss?

  He was adopted into.

• 58:45Speaker 05

  So he gave me that to do. And then I said, is there anything about being a bull rider? That bull riders do that I could learn that most people can't do. And he showed me. He said, yeah, when you tie off your glove, since you're going to be using your dominant hand to wrap the rawhide around, you're going to have to use your non-dominant hand and your teeth. And he said, you're gonna have to do it a lot of times to the point where you can go without even thinking about it. So I went, okay, I'm gonna do that at least 100 times a day from now on. Hopefully a thousand. I get down to Houston.

• 59:24Speaker 05

  Jim said, I'm gonna make this happen. I met the actress who was, had never played the lead in a big movie. Deborah Winger. And both she, John Travolta, Irving Azoff, and Jim Bridges always, all kind of like, shoved me down Paramount's throat. And Jim said, this movie is gonna change your life. You'll never have to audition again after you do it. And he told me the truth. I didn't believe it, but in those days, it was Urban Cowboy.

• 59:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 05

  And the part was Wes Hightower. It was funny, because when I read the script, I thought, all I have to do is be honest with this character. I'm not gonna go for big moments, right? Because if I'm honest with it, I'll jump off the screen of people, simply because this movie is about oil workers and blue collar workers who dress up like outlaw cowboys on weekends to go in and ride not a real bull, but a bull machine.

• 1:00:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, mechanical bull.

• 1:00:26Speaker 05

  And I'm gonna play a guy who's. A real bank robber, a real ex-con, and a real bull rider. And if I just get close to it, just close to it, I'll look like a diamond in a bucket full of rhinestones. Not because I'm particularly good, but it was almost like a setup. So anyway, that happened and I didn't have to audition. I auditioned once since then for a part that, not a big part in a movie I really wanted to do, and the director said, "No, no, at that point, I don't want you to do it." So I went to a cattle call under an assumed name, auditioned for it and got that part. But since I did Urban Cowboy, my life has changed.

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  And I thought, I was offered the lead in some TV series while I was in Texas. Because in those days, dailies were shared by everybody in the, in the business. So I turned them all down because I thought, "I don't want to leave Idaho and move back to LA." I loved my life in Idaho. I love, I didn't know how to ski, but I was learning how to ski, and I was climbing, and I was hiking, and I was shooting, and I was riding motorcycles, and all the things I really loved to do. And plus, I could really cleanly think about and concern myself with the art of acting and not, "Who do I know and where am I going and I've got this cool place in Malibu," or any of that stuff. The politics in the show.

• 1:01:52Speaker 05

  So, uh, so I turned down the TV stuff. When I'd been in Texas, Carol had, she hadn't left me, but I knew at a, a certain point when I was playing Wes Hightower, that I had the character, but I was terrified if I left it alone and put it down, it'd be like a bar of soap and I'd try to pick it up and I wouldn't. So I lived that part 24/7. Got arrested, got in trouble. I was Wes Hightower the whole time. I remember at one point I came back to, we had an apartment in the Galleria, and I came back and none of Carol's clothes were, there was no presence of them in the apartment. And there had been when I'd gone to work that day. And thinking, "What's going on?" The phone was ringing, I pick it up and it's Carol.

• 1:02:37Speaker 05

  And she said, "I'm back in Idaho. I can't handle living with Wes Hightower. So you let me know when he's dead. Me and the girls love you. We're up here, but we're not gonna put ourselves through this." And I went, "Okay."

• 1:02:57Speaker 05

  And I was about to hang up and she said, wait, before you hang up, I just want to say one thing. I said, what's that? She said, two things. Number one, I love you. And number two, I think you're hitting a home run with this and it's going to change our lives. So when I drove back up here in my Jimmy, I remember I stopped off in Wyoming at one point. People must have thought I was nuts. And I got out of the Jimmy, I walked down to the side of the road and I took this invisible Wes Hightower and threw him in the ground, broke his fucking neck and called Carol on a payphone. I said, Wes Hightower is dead. I'm coming home.

• 1:03:32Tim Ferriss?

  Wow. Okay.

• 1:03:34Speaker 05

  Got home.

• 1:03:35Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, okay, continue. And then we're gonna go back to the origin story.

• 1:03:38Speaker 05

  Okay. Got home. We were renting this house with this family that had come up with us. We were sharing this house. We had a bedroom. On the bed were two scripts for the leads in movies for more money than I'd ever dreamed about making. And that was that. So here I am in Idaho.

• 1:03:55Tim Ferriss?

  What, we're gonna go back in time. We're gonna slowly rewind because I have a couple of follow up questions. One is Jim Bridges, what did he see? What gave him the feeling of the confidence to say, this is gonna change your life? What do you think it was? Was it that setup that you talked about?

• 1:04:11Speaker 05

  I had done my first movie with him and I got the movie. I came out here and I met him, but I didn't audition for the part. There was a director, Ed Peron, who I'd done a thing called in New York, it was called Collision Course. It was nine, one act in the course of a night. And Ed said to Jim, if you're looking for somebody, a young guy who's not going to charge you a ton of money and is perfect for the part, Scott Glenn's the guy. So I got that part and did the movie. So Jim knew me over a period of, in those days, movies took about three months to shoot. Now it's way faster. And I guess whatever was he saw in me, it was jangled awake when we walked into his office coming back from

• 1:04:54Speaker 05

  Mexico. That was where he went, oh my God. Something that he saw about me, he wrote the script for Urban Cowboy with Aaron Lathan, the guy who had originally written a column in, I don't know if it was the Times, some place in New York about Gillies and bull machines and all of that stuff. And then Jim adapted that and wrote the screenplay. I don't know what it was he saw. I remember my screen test. They wanted me to do a scene from the, and I said, I can't do that. I'm not in the part. I don't want to lose it. And Jim said, well, we've got to put you on, on screen. And I said, and Deborah was doing her sexy bull ride at the time.

• 1:05:36Speaker 05

  And there were a bunch of guys in the front watching and I picked out the baddest looking one of all, who was a bandito, Texas. And I said, put the camera on me. And I thought, dear Lord, don't let this go bad, but here we go. When they were watching Deborah and I walked over to him and I went, hey, and he looked up at me and I said, you're sitting in my fucking seat. And he looked at me and I thought, what's gonna happen? And he got up and walked away. And I went and sat down. That was my screen test.

• 1:06:09Tim Ferriss?

  If we go way back in time, and this is just based on what I researched online, but it seems like initially you, you were not born out of the womb, dreaming of being an actor. It seems like you wanted to be a writer.

• 1:06:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Tim Ferriss?

  And how did acting enter the scene for you? And I, I read a bit about Berghoff.

• 1:06:29Speaker 05

  I wanted to be a writer and if I look back on my whole life, the most important single event in my life was scarlet fever when I was nine years old. I wasn't supposed to have survived. There was one weekend when the doctors told my mom and dad to get a plot. And what saved my life was crystalline penicillin. I don't know if you've ever had that, a shot of it, but it's interesting. Cause usually with most shots, it's the needle going in that hurts and it's fine. Crystalline penicillin is like thicker than engine grease.

• 1:07:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 05

  So the needle going in kind of hurts, but then. The rest of it going straightened you up and I didn't realize it was saving my life. So I hated it, but that experience turned me into an athlete, turned me into someone who has learned to not only live with, but fall in love with my fantasies and my imagination. And I don't know if it's true or not, and I don't wanna know because it's a fantasy that I, if it's not true, I grew up believing it was that on my mom's side of the family, I was directly related to Lord Byron. When I got out of bed from scarlet fever, my bones were so soft that they bent and I limped like for almost four years, but it turned me into an athlete because I was

• 1:07:45Speaker 05

  just embarrassed about the way I looked and I was in a neighborhood where it wasn't good to be physically frail. And this was Pittsburgh? Yeah. At any rate, I decided, you know, two things. Number one, I wasn't gonna be Walter Mitty. I wasn't gonna have an imaginary life. The adventures I was imagining were all gonna be true. I was gonna make them come true. And one of them was I was gonna be a writer, poet, writer. So when I enlisted in the Marine Corps, I enlisted as a six-month reserve. Why did you do that? Because you went from English major to Marine Corps, isn't it? Yeah, cuz where I came from, there was, nobody dodged the draft. Right. And the draft was happening.

• 1:08:30Speaker 05

  I see. So for me, and I knew even with a BA in college, I had so little technical ability. Everybody will tell you about that. If I was smart enough, I would have tried to become probably a naval aviator, but I wasn't smart enough to be a pilot. So where I came from, the choices were three. Marine Corps, eighty-second airborne, one hundred and first airborne. That's it. And then a friend of mine said, well, you can be airborne and a Marine, both. And then I was worried about my hearing because I've been legally deaf since I was 10 years old because of scarlet fever as well.

• 1:09:10Tim Ferriss?

  Because of the scarlet fever.

• 1:09:11Speaker 05

  And they laughed, they said, "You're gonna be an enlisted Marine, you're going to boot camp at Paris Island, and you're worried about your hearing? People are gonna scream at you the whole time you're there. And then you're gonna be shooting automatic weapons without your hearing protection. Your hearing's gonna be trashed. Don't worry about it." So that was my reason. So I did my six months in the Marine Corps, and this was the 60s where if you were a reservist, you didn't really have to make weekend meetings in summer camp. There were other ways of doing your time of deployments for three months or a month, month and a half, whatever. When I got out of the Marine Corps, I went to see my mom and dad who were living in

• 1:09:56Speaker 05

  Kenosha, Wisconsin. My dad was, at that point, he'd gotten pretty high up in Snap-on Tools. Well, when I was born, he was a salesman. So he went from no money and no nothing to, he actually wound up kind of running that company. I went to Kenosha, there was a job opening on the Kenosha Daily News, and I did an interview and lied, as I often do. They said, "Can you type?" And I went, "Yeah." And they said, "How many words a minute?" And I said, "35," because I knew that's what I needed. After the interview, they said, "Well, you got the job." I came out and there was a Joe Jacoby, one of the reporters there, said, "You should be happy. You don't look happy." And I said, "Well, I'll tell you the truth, I lied.

• 1:10:41Speaker 05

  I don't know how to type at all." And he said, "Me and one other reporter will cover for you, Scott, for two weeks. You go to adult education at the public high school and learn how to type."

• 1:10:53Tim Ferriss?

  And what was the job for? This was, were you transcribing, or what was the job?

• 1:10:57Speaker 05

  The job was cover reporter.

• 1:10:59Tim Ferriss?

  I got it.

• 1:11:00Speaker 05

  I was not very good at what I... So anyway, I'm up in the sitting room doing that, and I hear shots out the window. And it was cold as shit. And I remember I said to somebody in the city room, those are shots. Go out and check them out. And it was like thirty below zero. It was freezing cold. And somebody said, no, that was a car backfire. I said, vapor lock. Cars aren't even starting now. And there's most stuff in life I don't know, but I just got out of the Marine Corps. And gunfire, I do know. And I'm telling you, those were shots. And they said, why don't you go out and cover it? So I went outside and two blocks from the newspaper at the side of the road was a city patrol car

• 1:11:43Speaker 05

  with Mrs. Hockadahl, the chief of police's wife, sitting in the driver's seat with her husband's pistol smoking in her lap. And next to her, Dorothy Batatus, who was the chief of police's secretary slash mistress with half her head blown away. It was my story. It was the biggest story, obviously. So they made me a police reporter. And I realized, I thought being a police reporter would be really cool because I'll cover, you know, mob hits and all that stuff. And I realized that you do do that, but you're for every one of those, you do six interviewing a woman

• 1:12:28Speaker 05

  fifteen minutes after her teenage son has died in a traffic accident. And you're thinking about, do I get a byline? Is this going to be on page one or page two? And I felt like a ghoul. There was a bulletin board with other jobs listed. So I applied for the job of a reporter on the sports desk. I can't even remember the name of the paper, but it was in American Virgin Islands. I got the job and I was talking to a friend of mine on the phone and she lives along the island. And she said, when's the job start? And I said, in about six months. And she said, why don't you go to New York and take an acting class? And I went. Why? And she said, I'll be honest with you, Scott.

• 1:13:10Speaker 05

  I read the stuff that you write and your description of ideas and action and places isn't bad. It's okay. But your dialogue essentially sucks. It's stiff. Nobody talks like that. The minute you put words into anybody's mouth, whether it's a poem or a short story or whatever, you blow it. If you have to get in front of people and say words, it'll kick you in your ass to start to listen to the way people really talk. And if you're doing theater, you'll be dealing with arguably the best dialogue ever written. So after I got over maybe five or 10 minutes of being angry because she told me the truth, I thought, okay. So I got in my car. I had an old Triumph. And I drove to New York, sold the car, got two jobs.

• 1:13:54Speaker 05

  I looked up acting in the Village Voice, nothing under A, under B, it's at Berghof Studios. I didn't know anything about it. I call it up, call up Berghof Studios, and this guy named Bill Hickey, who was one of America's greatest character actors, nominated for, he might have gotten an Academy Award for, God, I can't think of the, anyway, Bill answers the phone. And he says, yeah, work on this, bring it by Berghof Studios Wednesday morning. It was, oh dad, poor dad, mom was hugging you in the closet, I'm feeling so sad, was the play. Something I'm completely unsuited for, but it was a little monologue. I worked on it. I go down into the basement of Berghof's, it was raining outside Wednesday morning, maybe seven or eight people sitting there to watch.

• 1:14:39Speaker 05

  I walk in front of Bill Hickey to start this monologue, and for the first and only time in my life, literally a light bulb went off between my eyes. And I thought, holy shit, I'm an actor. That fast. And it wasn't like, oh, I'm so fulfilled. It was, for the first time, my life made sense to me. My proclivity to daydream, my laziness in a lot of areas, everything made sense like that. And Bill saw it, and he started laughing, and he said, that's right, you're one of us. And then he turned to the other students and he said, Scott's not going to finish this. He's got to go outside, walk around the block a couple of times and think about things. So I went outside.

• 1:15:24Speaker 05

  There was a payphone on Bank Street. I called my mom and dad. I got my dad on the phone. I said, I'm not going to the Virgin Islands. I'm not going to be a director. They were terrified I would go back into the service, which I actually was thinking about doing. Because being in the service in a lot of ways can be rough and, you know, all that stuff. But in other ways, it's very easy because you don't have to make decisions about what you're going to wear, what you're going to do, what you're going to eat. And I like that because I really am lazy. I'm like horribly lazy human being. Anyway, I told my dad that. And he took a second and he gave me the best advice I could ever have had. He said, "Son, I don't really know anything about what you're telling me.

• 1:16:06Speaker 05

  The only advice I can give you is don't give yourself any deadlines." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Don't say, if I haven't made it in two years, I'm going to sell insurance." He said, "That's like starting a race with a lead wheel weight hung around your neck. In for a penny, in for a pound. If you love it, make it your life." And I did, and here I am talking to you.

• 1:16:30Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to zoom in on your dad for a second because it seems like, just based on what you've said thus far, that for a company man at that time, that seems like very unexpected advice that would be given, that there wouldn't be any pushback. What do you attribute that to? Why did your dad give you that advice, do you think? Or why did he feel comfortable giving it?

• 1:16:51Speaker 05

  Well, my dad grew up in a way that I can't possibly understand, in real, serious poverty. I remember he told me at one point, "If I ever have money, I'm going to give it to a charity, make it the Salvation Army because they fed us Christmas time." They had a cow in a vacant lot that three blocks of people used for milk. So I'm not going to go into, I don't want to divulge to you, but my dad was involved in as hard a life as you can imagine and did well in that life. So my dad's background was, he dealt with really poor Irish, Jewish, black, Italian.

• 1:17:34Speaker 05

  And all of them involved in gambling and booze, none of them involved in drugs. They were all people, my dad's best friend who raised me as much as my mom and dad did was a black Cherokee, super honorable, super loving, super gentle, but also somebody you wouldn't want to fuck with. So that was my dad's background when he met my mom and she said basically, if you even curse around me, we're not going to be together and you can't do anything illegal. So he left the world that he was in and started selling blue point tools that morphed into Snap-on Tools.

• 1:18:15Speaker 05

  He told me later on, when I was still struggling as an actor, and the thing that I'm sad about, but I can't do anything about is he never saw me being successful. My mom did, but my dad was dead by the time. But he told me, he said, when he was, started doing really well with Snap-on Tools, he said, I keep running into these men who are lawyers and doctors and they're not happy. Because they're doing their father's dream, not their dream. And he said, the only advice I can give you about having kids is when you have kids, don't dream their dreams for them. Do not do that. So he was an unusual guy.

• 1:18:58Speaker 05

  To be very honest, the only human being I've ever met in my life, close to who he was, was him.

• 1:19:06Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for sharing that. And how would you describe your mother? Her character, what you absorbed from her?

• 1:19:13Speaker 05

  Uh, filled with love, unconditional love. When I think back on it, my mom and dad played tennis. My mom also grew up really, really poor. Her dad died when he was in his 30s, but she had a rich, super aunt. Who never gave the family money, but gave her things like ballet lessons. And so my mom was a dancer and I think back on it, she was a loving, physical artist. It was like when, I remember when Carol and I were gonna get married and I told my dad that we grew up Swedenborgians and I was planning on converting to Judaism. I didn't want her to have a target

• 1:19:56Speaker 05

  on her back that I didn't have on mine as well. And my dad's answer was, man should do what the woman wants. So that was my mom and dad. I mean, what I will say about growing up with them is we hear all these people talk about growing up in these dysfunctional families. I don't have any excuses. I grew up in the most functionally family. Straight out love. My dad never hit me, except for once in my life. I remember my mom wanted me to take this girl to a dance, junior high, and she was the daughter of a friend of hers. And I went, ooh, I know she was a little hefty, whatever. I didn't want to do it. And I said, no, I don't want to do it. And she said, please, I'm asking. I said, no. And my mom

• 1:20:38Speaker 05

  teared up and started going, huh. My dad walked in the door and he said, why's your mom crying? I said, something I said. He walked over and hit me with an uppercut and dropped me on my ass like, wham. This is somebody who had never given me a spanking.

• 1:20:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54Speaker 05

  And he looked down at me. He said, make your mom cry, you're going down. And walked away. So the next time my mom wanted me to do something, if she even started to go, huh huh, I said, okay, mama.

• 1:21:10Tim Ferriss?

  So let's come back to the conversion to Judaism. I'd love for you to say a little bit more about that. You mentioned if Carol was gonna have a target on her back, you didn't want her to be alone in that. Can you say more about the decision to convert?

• 1:21:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, I had a friend, his name was Milton Bedol, and I've lost touch with him. I don't even know if he's alive or dead, but he was a rabbi in a shul in the Upper East Side in New York. And he was a friend of mine. He'd been a rabbi in a shul in Charleston, South Carolina. He'd been in some of the first bus sedens. He'd been in shootouts with the KKK. And I believe he dropped a couple of those. And he was my friend. He loved theater. And I went to see him and I said, I want you to make me a Jew. He, he, he said, you know, I'm the-

• 1:21:53Tim Ferriss?

  Why did you say that to him? In preparation for getting married?

• 1:21:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. I said, I'm going with Carol. I want you to make me a Jew. He'd met her and he so, you know, I said, I want you to make me a Jew. And he said, schmuck alive for you. I'll tell her parents that I did it and I won't do it. And I just went, it's not, her parents don't have anything to do with it. And he said, I'm a conservative rabbi. I don't really believe in conversions that much. What do you know about the Talmud? And I said, if a man teaches his son no trade is as if he taught him highway robbery. And he said, you've read the Talmud? And I said, some of it. He said, do you accept it as the word of God? And I went, no, not really. I said, I think it's a book with a lot of wisdom,

• 1:22:36Speaker 05

  as is the Bible, as is the Quran. But if you're asking me of all that stuff, what resonates the most with me, it'd be Lautzur's The Way of Life. He said, I'll get, I'll find a rabbi that'll do it for you. I went, okay. And I started walking out of the shul. And he said, hey, wait a minute asshole. Turn around. So I did. And he said, you're not doing it for the Talmud. You're not doing it for her parents. Why do you want me to convert you? And I said, because I met this woman. I love her and we want to travel. And I don't want to be going anywhere in the world where somebody's pointing a gun at her and not at me for the same reason. Period. That's it. If there was no anti-Semitism, you and I wouldn't be having this talk.

• 1:23:17Speaker 05

  And he said, sit down. So I sat down and he said, after me, all of Beth Gimel Doh. Then I said, what are you doing? He said, I'm converting you. And I said, well, you just told me you wouldn't. He said, nobody has ever given me that answer to that question. He said, if you want to take this on that way, I'm duty bound to convert you. And then he kind of converted me. I was doing an off-Broadway play at the time. So he would go down and when I would go to the shul to like, learn about Judaism, he was a closet director. He would say, I want to come back on stage in two days. I want you to try this. I went, oh, man. Okay. I'm not going to say no to the guy.

• 1:23:58Speaker 05

  Abraham Ephraim Ben Abraham is my Jewish name.

• 1:24:03Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned Lao Tzu. Why does that resonate? Why does his writing or the conglomerate known as Lao Tzu, the sort of uh?

• 1:24:10Speaker 05

  It feels like an honest description of of inner and outer truth, the way I know it. It just resonates with me that, I mean, we can talk about this later on or not talk about it. You shoot, I know. Do you know who Brian Enos is?

• 1:24:26Tim Ferriss?

  I know the name. I do.

• 1:24:27Speaker 05

  And so he wrote a book called Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals. And it's about when you enter the space of doing something, the less thought that can be involved. And the more you're just present in the now, the better it will be. Doing martial arts and boxing, wrestling, all that stuff. I just realized at a very young age that if I wanted something to work out well physically, the best thing I could possibly do is watch my body do it, not make any decisions at all. So, you know, if somebody does this, then you do that. I never bought that in martial arts. Given where I grew up, I knew that wasn't true.

• 1:25:11Speaker 05

  Number one, if anybody who predicted what would happen in, let's say, a physical confrontation, if they were making the prediction, one thing for me was very clear about them. They'd never been in one. Now I believe that that's not just true of that kind of stuff, but it's true of pretty much anything you do physically. If you have muscle memory, let your muscle memory alone. It'll do it so much faster and cleaner than you ever will. And for me, spiritually, that's what Lao Tzu is saying.

• 1:25:41Tim Ferriss?

  So it's this sort of diminishing of the self or dissolution of the self?

• 1:25:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's like Lao Tzu is the ultimate mystical. And for me, mystical, the mystical side of every religion is not the impractical. That's the practical side. The impractical side is orthodox. That says, this is a whole other thing, and I'm just an actor and I'm not that bright. So I'm just saying this, but. I believe that orthodoxy right now is under fire and diminishing quickly. It's in the rearview mirror. And people like Mike Johnson even complain about going to fundamentalist evangelical church and seeing less and less people in the pews.

• 1:26:27Speaker 05

  The reason for that, I believe, is because orthodoxy is not practical. Orthodoxy says, "Take absolute, for real, the words that are written in these books." Well, if you want to save orthodoxy, forget about banning books about LGBTQ or blacks or Latinos. You want to save orthodoxy, ban the teaching of these three following subjects: math, physics, chemistry. Because under the harsh light of science, orthodoxy doesn't work. Carbon dating says to the Bible, the Talmud, and the Quran, all of which get kind of close

• 1:27:11Speaker 05

  to the same date as the age of the earth, carbon dating says, "Yeah, you'll miss that one by only around 170 million years." Whoops, somebody lived in the belly of a whale. Well, 2,000 years ago, you look at something as big as a whale, you save as possible. Biology says, "This thing can barely swallow anything bigger than a minnow." Guess what? It never happened. Whoops. But mysticism says, "All of this is poetry to tell you from God how to live your life, how to be an honorable, just person, how to have a family." All of which I completely believe, absolutely.

• 1:27:52Speaker 05

  So, to me, Lao Tzu is the ultimate mystic, because in my mind, what mystics in orthodoxy are looking essentially at doing the opposite thing. Orthodoxy is saying, "If I bow to Mecca, or if I eat..."

• 1:28:11Speaker 05

  Fish on Friday, or if I live kosher, when I die, I'll be cool. My ego will be cool. I'll be fine. I will be fine. Mysticism tries to dissolve the ego altogether. Do I believe when I die Scott Glenn will be around? No. But do I believe there's something in me that's a point of view, that's a point of view of you two guys and the cloud outside and elk running? Yes, I do believe that.

• 1:28:43Tim Ferriss?

  Talking about that dissolution from a firsthand experiential perspective, like a mystic, have you ever experienced, say, in acting, a role playing you as opposed to the other way around?

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:28:57Tim Ferriss?

  Could you describe?

• 1:28:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:28:59Tim Ferriss?

  What that's like?

• 1:29:00Speaker 05

  The first time it happened was Urban Cowboy. I translated it wrong. I translated it as fear of leaving this character alone. The second time it happened was doing an off-Broadway play called Killer Joe. And I just realized that up until one part of Killer Joe, it was a crazy play where we were allowed, the director realized that the acoustics were so good in the Soho Playhouse, that we could turn our back on the audience and be heard. We could walk offstage and be heard. So he thought, to make this really spontaneous and organic,

• 1:29:42Speaker 05

  I'm going to allow anyone to do whatever they want. There's not going to be any blocking at all, none. The whole thing took place in a trailer on the outskirts of Dallas. So if as a character, in the middle of a conversation, you felt like walking down the hallway offstage to take a leak, you did. So it was completely.

• 1:30:03Speaker 05

  Open like that. The only part that was choreographed originally was there was a big fight at the end. We brought in a guy from the opera to choreograph the fight and he choreographed a great fight scene, but it didn't look right next to how loose the rest of the play was. So we realized we had to improv the fight as well. Mercifully, the people in the cast had circus skills. We knew how to pratfall and stuff like that. But everybody got hurt doing it. Fifteen minutes before half an hour, we come on stage and we say, okay, tonight, this chair is a breakaway. This will shatter. This is real. And the deal that we had was like if you came up behind me and grabbed the back of my hair

• 1:30:45Speaker 05

  and pulled me, I would fall backwards. But since I couldn't see what I was falling into, it was the obligation of the person pulling me to kick, if there was a chair or something that I was gonna fuck up my back, to kick it out of the way. The only place to kick it was the first aisle of the theater. So we told people when they came to see his play, this is a projectile aisle. You may not get a heavy object landing on your lap, or you may. You for sure are gonna be covered with fried chicken and ketchup and fake blood. There's no question. So don't wear suits that you care about. So anybody over the

• 1:31:24Speaker 05

  age of 25 avoided those seats and the kids fought to get them. So that was sort of the way the play worked. There was one scene at the very beginning of act two where I'm supposed to walk on sta- it's dark and this guy is trying to get in, he's drunk and he's trying to get in the front door, but I don't know who it is. And I've moved in at that point. And I'm in bed with a young girl. So I come out in the dark, grab him, slam him down on the ground. And I've got a 45 automatic and I'm wearing a watch. And the lights come up and then everybody else wanders on stage who's in the trailer. My wardrobe

• 1:32:04Speaker 05

  is a 45 automatic and a watch. At one point, Tracy Letts said, Scott, when people walk on stage, all I see is your ass. You're trying to, you live at this place. So full frontal nudity, fine. But doing that oddly kind of.

• 1:32:22Speaker 05

  After the first night of doing it, it was like, I don't know whether liberate is the right word,

• 1:32:28Tim Ferriss?

  I was just gonna use that word.

• 1:32:30Speaker 05

  But I realized that after that, and Tracy forced me into that spot, the best thing I could do with the play was just let it happen. Just let it happen. So that was Killer Joe.

• 1:32:41Tim Ferriss?

  When you say let it happen, how does that change how you approach the next performance? You decide to let it happen.

• 1:32:49Speaker 05

  The next performance, I didn't make any decisions about what I would do, what prop I would pick up, anything.

• 1:32:56Tim Ferriss?

  Just let.

• 1:32:56Speaker 05

  Well, let's see what's going on here. I'm gonna live in this space. I know that I am this character. I even told Tracy, I said, I know other people have played this part at Steppenwolf, where it started in Chicago, but you fucking wrote this for me. And I just know it. In the way that, that I felt the same way about Wes Hightower in Urban Cowboy. So that was Killer Joe. The next time it happened, I was doing Leftovers. And I'd been in two seasons of The Leftovers and I'd gone from just being a character to Damon Lindelof calling me up with Mimi Leiter, the producer, she directed most of them, and Damon wrote it.

• 1:33:37Speaker 05

  And they said, we want you to be a regular member of the cast. We're doing the last season in Australia. And I think the second or third episode is gonna be just you, Scott. All just you in Australia. And I've written the longest monologue I've ever written. I'm so lucky. So I said, what is it, two pages long? He said, no, seven. I went, holy shit, seven pages. And he sent it to me. At the time he sent it to me, I was reading this book. I know you've got a dog. I'm gonna ask you about your dog.

• 1:34:11Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:34:11Speaker 05

  But I was reading this book called, uh, Don't Shoot the Dog.

• 1:34:15Tim Ferriss?

  Excellent book.

• 1:34:16Speaker 05

  Isn't it a great book?

• 1:34:17Tim Ferriss?

  It is the top recommendation always for people who are considering getting a dog for any type of training. It is an excellent book.

• 1:34:24Speaker 05

  If we weren't holding mics, I'd argue. So I got, so I'm reading Don't Shoot the Dog, and the section I'm reading is where she says, positive reinforcement can help you train your dog.

• 1:34:40Speaker 05

  Your husband or your wife, your friends, even yourself. For example, if you've got something long to memorize, and I'm thinking, holy shit. So what she said in that was, it'll take longer initially, but it's the perfect way to remember something really long. Start at the end. The last sentence, and then the last sentence, and the next last sentence, and then like that. Because what will happen when you get to the beginning of this thing, and you launch into it for real, as you're getting towards the end, it'll become more and more familiar. It'll be like walking home. Wait a minute, I know this street lamp.

• 1:35:20Tim Ferriss?

  That's fascinating. Instead of the ending being this hanging unfamiliarity.

• 1:35:26Speaker 05

  It scares you a little while. Remember it. As you get near the end, you become more and more comfortable, and more and more comfortable. So we get down to, Carol and I get to Australia, we go to the Outback, and we're gonna do this scene. So the first one we're gonna do, and so Mimi says, we'll do this in bits and pieces, because this is seven pages, no way you can do the whole thing in one. And I said, you know what, Mimi? Can you set it up so that I, at least give me a shot at doing it in one take? And she said, yeah, okay, I can do that. So we set it up. It's really, it's not a monologue in that it's not me talking to myself. I'm talking to David Gopaleel, but he doesn't say anything. So he just sits there and listens.

• 1:36:10Speaker 05

  So we start doing this scene, and we come to the end of it. I hear action, I feel my key light a few times, I hear cut, and Mimi says, okay, that was, first she said incorrectly, but I'll say it because I got a big ego. She said, ladies and gentlemen, you just had a master's class in acting. She said, okay, so Scott, so when you picked up the tape recorder, and you started to play it, and you welled up, and you started to cry, and you wouldn't let yourself, and you put it back down, what did you do next? And I said, what did I do with the tape recorder?

• 1:36:47Speaker 05

  She said, "What do you remember about what you just did?" And I went, "Not much." She said, "You're telling me that so much of you was in that scene, there wasn't enough to step outside. You weren't watching yourself at all." And I went, "No." And she said, "If you can't direct yourself, I can't direct you. So would you be willing the next time we do this to have a little piece of you watching it so that when I talk about parts of the, that I want to change, we can talk to each other?" And I said, "Are you asking me as somebody who has this job and is being told by the director, or as an artist?" She said, "What's the difference?" And I said, "The difference is, I'm a blue collar,

• 1:37:32Speaker 05

  enlisted Marine, I know how to take orders, you're my boss, if you tell me to do it, I'll do it. But if as an artist, you're asking me, will I do it?" Artists wait whole lifetimes to be able to have this experience. And if I could have this experience again, fuck no, I don't want to do it. I do not. And she said, "What if I'm not getting what I want?" And I said, "Let's do another take. We'll just do one take after another." She said, "It'll wipe you out, it'll exhaust you." I said, "No, it won't. Look at me. Am I exhausted?" So we did three or four more takes of the whole thing. And at the end of it, Mimi said, "Is this what I'm going to be dealing with for the rest of this episode?" And I went, "Not if you tell me not to."

• 1:38:16Speaker 05

  And she said, "I'm not going to tell you not to. Let's just go for it." So we did that whole episode, crazy white fella thinking. And all I would do in the morning when I would wake up, first in the Outback and later on in Melbourne, was I'd look, literally look in the mirror and I'd say, "Stay out of the way. Do not make editorial decisions or try to work for that big moment." I had a manager, he used to, his term was, "Having a conversation with Oscar. Have no conversations with Emmy or Oscar. Just stay out of the way of this and let it happen." So that was when I really understood being in that spot as an actor. And then it happened to me again with Vince Vaughn.

• 1:39:02Speaker 05

  Doing a series that hasn't come out yet, the first season, I don't know if there'll be a second season, the first season will be around August, it's called Bad Monkey, it stars Vince, and the first day on the set, working with Vince, we did, I play his dad, and the character is a shaman who talks to manatees and birds flying by in the sky and shit like that. At any rate, Vince, after we did the scene, has written like three times, and it felt like it was just taking me. Vince said, "Okay, we know the scene, Scott, would you be cool with just throwing the script

• 1:39:41Speaker 05

  out and just winging that scene, what we just did, just completely open-ended loose?" And I went, "You mean like I used to do in street theater?" "Shit, yes." And after we did that, I just thought, "I'm not gonna edit myself, or this character that I'm playing, because of a key that kind of, something that I signed up for, a breathing thing with this guy, Irwan Lakor." At any rate, I just realized after that day with Vince and the key that I had to play in the character, "I'm gonna stay out of the way of this, because it feels so good and so fresh, and I'm lazy, too. I mean, it's taking care of me. Why should I work my ass off when the best stuff is just

• 1:40:24Speaker 05

  leaving it alone?" And then the next job I got after that was something called Eugene the Marine, which is this low-budget thriller that will be coming out sometime in the next year. And with that, I realized from the get-go, just stay out of the way, both because the director was gonna let me do whatever I really wanted. I would make the physical, I was supposed to pick up a drill and drill a hole in the wall, I'd do that. But how I was gonna do it, whether it was gonna be the same again and again, whether it would match, I wasn't even gonna, not even think about that a little bit, to a great extent, because I am lazy. And then the part that I was doing in Eugene the Marine was beyond the lead. It was a 98-page script, I was in 96 of

• 1:41:09Speaker 05

  the pages. So there's no way, I couldn't even memorize, I was just hope that the words would come to me. And what I happened on with that was, I realized that what gives, in my mind, what gives performances on film their juice or electricity is their degree of spontaneity.

• 1:41:31Speaker 05

  And complete spontaneity, and I got this from Brian Enos as well about shooting, complete spontaneity is not watching yourself at all. Complete spontaneity is being in the now so completely that you really don't have a past. And more importantly, way more importantly, I think with acting, is you don't have a future, which means plans on what you're gonna do in the scene dissolve and then finally disappear. So what I had with that movie was finally, we just wound up being with the crew as my very small audience, every single take was a one-act play called Now.

• 1:42:16Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned Marlon Brando earlier. Was there anything that you gleaned from your time around Marlon Brando? Or that he taught you, any gems you picked up?

• 1:42:29Speaker 05

  Aside from his moral behavior, which was phenomenal.

• 1:42:34Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:42:35Speaker 05

  He supported two villages in the Philippines with all of his pay and wouldn't let anybody write about it, or it's not in the movie, but there's one point where I killed Dennis Hopper. And I was working on the scene and Marlon came over to me, he says, Scott, just because they call it acting, doesn't mean you have to act. I went, okay.

• 1:42:56Tim Ferriss?

  What did he mean by that?

• 1:42:57Speaker 05

  What he meant by that was I was trying to squeeze something out of a moment rather than seeing what the moment was gonna present to me. And what I learned from watching him was, because he had this reputation of being, okay, there are two basic schools of acting that even to this day, that when you watch people work and you know which one they're coming from. One is Rada, really great Brit actors all have this, which is technique. You get down the accent and the physical characteristics and the wardrobe and the makeup and the dealing with props and get the whole outside perfect and then do the part. That's Rada.

• 1:43:43Speaker 05

  Technique acting, most of what you still see. Then there's the Russian school, which is Stanislavski, Bolosovski. And that is, you begin with the inside of the character. Does this person share my same, the way I look at life, philosophy, all that stuff? What emotions are really mine that are also this character? And if they're not the same, can one be replaced with the other? So if something makes me angry about getting on a subway and I'm playing somebody who's angry about not being left money in a will, the audience doesn't know where that anger comes from. So you use the subway because you're not in the other city.

• 1:44:27Speaker 05

  So Marlon had the reputation of being mainly, if not 100%, the Russian school. I realized around him, he was whatever worked. Sometimes he would take a mirror, make an expression on the mirror, freeze it, say action. And other times, he would say, how are they lighting this scene? And they would say, is there a way I can put this ear in the dark so you don't see it? Yeah, but what are you gonna do? And he put a sound plug in his ear and play, not his lines, but the stuff he wanted to cover in improvisation. So he wouldn't miss stuff.

• 1:45:03Tim Ferriss?

  It was audio. He had recorded himself.

• 1:45:05Speaker 05

  So he would do anything. And I learned from him that part. But I also got from Marlon his understanding about, okay, so, brief little story. Where we were in the Philippines was at a place called Poxon Han. And I had a room at Poxon Han Inn that I basically kept all my crap in. I was living at the time with this group of people called the Ifagao that were on the set. But one afternoon, I was back at the hotel with Marlon, with two producers, I think Dennis Hopper and I think Larry Fishburne was there. So anyway, we're sitting around, the table in the hotel and where you check into the hotel and a jukebox, we're all kind of in the same room.

• 1:45:49Speaker 05

  This couple came in to check into the hotel, Filipino couple, and they had two little girls with them. One was holding her mom's dress, hiding behind it. The other one, and I think it was Satisfaction, was playing on the jukebox. The other little girl heard this song and she came dancing into the place where we were all sitting around. Sort of miming to satisfaction and she was magical and people were laughing and finally her parents checked in and they all left and went upstairs. One of the producers, I think was a great Frederick, said about the little girl who was in dance, he said, God, that little girl was magical. Someday that little girl will be a great actress.

• 1:46:33Speaker 05

  And Marlon said, great actress? And they said, he said, yeah. And Marlon said, you're wrong. It's the other one. They didn't get it, but I immediately understood because that other little girl doing like this was me, who needed the permission of a part to go nuts, to do whatever it was. And Marlon was saying the same thing about himself.

• 1:46:52Tim Ferriss?

  With the quickening that you felt when you realized that you were meant to act when your life started to make sense, do you think that was predestined out of the box? Was that informed by your experience with scarlet fever? Because I know, I believe you couldn't read at the time.

• 1:47:10Speaker 05

  Yes, scarlet fever attacks, sometimes all, usually just one of your senses. And they don't know why it does that, but they were trying to protect my eyesight, which turns out to be really good. What scarlet fever left me out with was damaged auditory nerves. I mean, I've got hearing aids in now because Carol finally was up here probably five, six years ago. She just got tired of screaming at me and having me walk into the room and turning the TV up so like ear splitting loud. She said, you got to get hearing aids. Didn't think I needed them. And then I got checked by the audiologist who went behind my back to talk to me.

• 1:47:51Speaker 05

  And what happened was he was talking to me, I'm looking at him and I'm hearing him fine. He walks behind me and I can't hear him. And he told me, he said, that's because you read lips. I thought, no, I don't read lips. He said, oh, yeah, you do. And he said, the good news, Scott, is this is not age related. The bad news is you've been suffering this for at least forty years. My suspicion is longer. So, uh, that was scarlet fever.

• 1:48:17Tim Ferriss?

  And do you think that informed, helped shape you into what later became this actor?

• 1:48:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, or it led me into having discoveries that I wouldn't have had before. Like when I got out of bed from scarlet fever, I could take my finger literally and run it in and out of my rib cage. My bones were soft, so I limped. I grew up in a neighborhood that was very physical. So out of mortification, if there was a pickup football game, I played. But what I discovered from playing sports and stuff, it wasn't that I was so good at it, but I actually liked it a lot. I loved physicality. Before I got scarlet fever, I didn't, all my friends were girls. I'd much rather talk about flower arrangements than the NFL or. And to some extent, that's still true of me.

• 1:49:06Speaker 05

  So scarlet fever just introduced me to a different world that I really loved. Marine Corps did too. All of those things, rock climbing with Tony Jones up in the bighorn crags, all of that stuff I found out was really fun and put a smile on my face. And I don't think if I had never gotten scarlet fever, I don't know that that would have ever happened. I don't know, it did happen and now I'm eighty-five and here it is.

• 1:49:32Tim Ferriss?

  So for people who of course are listening to this and not seeing any visual, I mean, for the majority of our conversation, you were sitting comfortably cross-legged on a couch, no back support, something that I know thirty-somethings who wouldn't be comfortable in that position more than a few minutes. What does your physical training look like now? And what would you say are some of the most important types of training or decisions about training that you've made, say, post-forty, just to allow this type of durability?

• 1:50:03Speaker 05

  I always wake up the same way. I wake up, I didn't today, oh, I slept in. But normally I wake up around five-thirty. I slept till seven today, I don't know why, but I come downstairs, I fill up the coffee machine with water, turn it on, clean up the surfaces of all the tables, just because it feels like a good thing to do. And then I massage my ears.

• 1:50:31Speaker 05

  Pull them up as high as possible. I'm not talking about being gentle, not gentle at all. Pull them down and then massage my ears. And if I feel any even slightly tender sore spot, I really go after that as hard as I can. I learned this in a Tai Chi seminar years ago in in New York, and I've done it ever since. But anyway, strong, super strong ear massage. Then after that, and while I'm doing all this stuff, I'm thinking, I'm making sure that my breath is horizontal and low.

• 1:51:04Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by horizontal?

• 1:51:06Speaker 05

  Okay, there are two kinds of breathing that most people like, most Americans do improperly after the age of, I don't know, two or three. One is, we're born breathing horizontally, which means if I say, take a big, in a big breath of air, your stomach goes out, your diaphragm is working.

• 1:51:27Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:51:27Speaker 05

  And it's not, and you're not bringing anything into the top of your chest at all. That's horizontal breathing. Vertical breathing is where you see the shoulders going up and and we vertically breathe way, way too much because what vertical breathing will do aside from the fact that you're not taking in as much oxygen is it will put tension into your upper body and lower body. It also jack you into a fight or flight situation. So if you do that at a stoplight because somebody, you know, got in your way, that's really a bad idea because you're going to jack up your heart rate, you're going to jack up your

• 1:52:08Speaker 05

  blood pressure, you're going to screw with your central nervous system. So I just try, early in the morning, try to remind myself.

• 1:52:15Tim Ferriss?

  Horizontal breathing.

• 1:52:16Speaker 05

  Horizontal breathing, and then drop it down low so that you're feeling the diaphragm. That's all. So I do that. After the ear massage, I tap my head, brain tap.

• 1:52:28Tim Ferriss?

  Now, is this also from Chinese medicine?

• 1:52:30Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:52:30Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:31Speaker 05

  So after I finish tapping, I wash my hands, blow my nose, walk outside, and I'm dressed usually like this. Usually I've got a lighter shirt on.

• 1:52:41Tim Ferriss?

  You're in shorts and a sweatshirt right now.

• 1:52:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I slip on these slip on shoes because this time of year, I'll probably be standing in snow and ice. And I open up the garage and I walk outside. And I hum. And when I say I hum, any of us can do it easily. You put your back teeth together and Hmm. I do that eight times and put vibration in my vagus nerve. This is every morning for sure. And then I come back in, shut the garage door, and usually then I look at what the temperature was, because I think, whoa, that was pretty cool. Like this morning, it was fourteen. And you're outside in shorts?

• 1:53:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm not uncomfortable at all. But, you know, I know other people who handle the cold way better than I do. But the humming, you know, who does that? Buddhist monks do that in the Himalayas, and they do that in way colder weather with robes on. It actually will work if you can do it in a relaxed way. You know, you start to learn sort of to anchor your coccyx, hum, come back in, then take a shitload of vitamins and minerals and crap like that, probably most of which I don't need, but I do it anyway.

• 1:54:04Speaker 05

  And then make the bed upstairs, always make the bed. And then I do something physical to finish waking up. Today it was baby fit. You know baby fit? I do not know baby fit. Russian special ops do it in the morning. Use your legs first five times with each leg, lying on your back with your arms over your head. Use your legs to turn yourself over the way a baby would. And then you use your arms to do the same thing, five times, five times. Then you rock back and forth. I do it twenty times. Do with your neck. I do ten times usually. And then a low crawl. And a bear crawl, you can either do a bear

• 1:54:48Speaker 05

  crawl with your butt up in the air, or your butt lower than your shoulders. I do it lower than my shoulders. Did you get John into this? And, and what he said was, makes so much sense. We spend so much of our time looking at cell phones and computers and driving and doing so much stuff like that or like that. Right, with your head. It would be good to do that a bit. Get your neck extended instead of pitched down. And I do a bear crawl, and I

• 1:55:17Speaker 05

  Like today, I didn't do that many because I was thinking about you guys coming over here and I didn't want. So I just did 12, but usually I do 60. When it's warm out, I'll use the lawn out there and usually it's like 90 to 100 out.

• 1:55:31Tim Ferriss?

  This is yards or feet, feet, I guess?

• 1:55:33Speaker 05

  This is just moves.

• 1:55:34Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:55:35Speaker 05

  One, two, three, four, like that.

• 1:55:37Tim Ferriss?

  That's quite a bit. Good for you. Geez, I don't even know if I could do that.

• 1:55:40Speaker 05

  So that's one, one thing I'll do. The other, the other is, you know, like a really brief warm-up. When I say brief warm-up, 30 seconds of running in place, swinging my arm, just putting some synovial fluid in my joints. And then what I've been doing a lot is quick and dead. For me, that's just 10 kettlebell swings, either with a 32-pound, I don't know the KGs, in the 30s.

• 1:56:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, probably 16, 24 kilos. Wow.

• 1:56:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, or 52.

• 1:56:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, 52, okay.

• 1:56:15Speaker 05

  I stopped doing the 52 because I screwed up my muscle. I'm learning about more muscles in my body with my old age. But anyway, I do 10 kettlebell swings, inside a minute, 10 more inside a minute, wait a minute, get on the ground, do push-ups. Depends on how ambitious I am. I'll either do, I rarely do straight push-ups. I'll usually do fist push-ups, or open finger fist push-ups, tri-finger push-ups, or these, which are.

• 1:56:47Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I got it. The close hand more tricep type push-ups.

• 1:56:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, right. Back屈伸 exercise, prison push-ups. So I'll do 10 of those, 10 of those, wait a minute, back and forth, and I'll do five rounds. So inside of five rounds, I've done 100 KB swings and 100 push-ups. Then I'm pretty much done with like specific.

• 1:57:10Speaker 05

  Working out, if I wanted to do, I used to do, you know, workout with like dumbbells and barbells and stuff like that, just for the chuckles of it. Every now and then I'll pick up some dumbbells just to play or say, can I still do this? But I avoid that because I'm eighty-five and I don't want to mess with my joints and tendons and ligaments. And I've discovered that bands work just as well and they're way more merciful on your body. I mean, at one point you talk about being eighty-five, I absolutely take into account the fact that I'm, and the other thing I realized is that already at eighty-five, my recuperation time is way longer than it used to be. If I do an all-nighter now,

• 1:57:55Speaker 05

  it'll take me three days to get back. When I was in the Marine Corps, I could get, I'm not exaggerating, I could get fifteen, twenty minutes of sleep, just tying myself to an armored personnel carrier and I was good for seventy-two hours, for real. And those days are long gone.

• 1:58:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:13Speaker 05

  So, and now also if I drink too much tequila, I'm gonna really feel it for two or three days, all that stuff. The one place where, that I'm lucky, I'm not bragging, is really true, is my reaction to them. I'm still as quick as I used to be. But what I'm, I realize is that could turn into...

• 1:58:35Tim Ferriss?

  And for people who can't see, you just threw a jab right in my face.

• 1:58:38Speaker 05

  What I realize is that could drop off thirty seconds from now. I'm eighty-five. At, at some point, that's gonna go. And if it does, that's, I'll deal with it. Those are some of the stuff that I do, aside from the breathing stuff. I used to think the most important muscles in the body were the butt, the hamstrings and the quads, lower body big muscles. And they're not unimportant at all, but now I believe that easily the most important muscle, you have control, I mean, I guess yogis have control over their heart. So that would work. I don't. I can slow my heart rate down and that's pretty much it.

• 1:59:21Speaker 05

  So the most important muscle in my body that I can have control over for sure is the diaphragm. Nothing else even gets close. And that feet up thing over there, I use to.

• 1:59:32Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, look at that. I know the.

• 1:59:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, I like, I like, forget exactly how the diaphragm feels. So I'll invert myself and then drop my heels over so that they're against the wall really gently, as gently as possible. And why I'm doing that is that can then take all of the tension out of my shoulders and my hands and everything. And then I just start breathing deeply. If you're in that position, you won't be able to vertically breathe. You will not be able to.

• 2:00:04Tim Ferriss?

  Let me just.

• 2:00:04Speaker 05

  So if you start taking in big breaths, you're gonna be introduced to your diaphragm like right away.

• 2:00:10Tim Ferriss?

  Let me explain this for folks because a lot of people listening, a lot of my friends who are former athletes in their thirties or forties could not do this comfortably. So I want to explain it. So imagine there's a device called the feet up, but just for visual purposes, imagine that you took a, let's call it a three inch cushion and put it on your toilet seat, emptied the toilet of water, put your head in the toilet and then kick your feet up. So you're basically doing a handstand on your shoulders. You can't shrug your shoulders or be very hard. So you have to then breathe through your diaphragm. So this is what Scott does at 85, just for hashtag life goals for everybody listening. And do you exercise every morning?

• 2:00:48Speaker 05

  No, I guess I kind of do. I was thinking when I was doing Eugene, the Marine, all I would do is, well, actually I did do about 60 pace. I would do baby fit in the morning. That'd be pretty much it because I knew I had so much work to do during the day. And a lot of it was super physical as martial arts stuff with training knives and stuff like that. So I'm not compelled to work out every day, but at least every other day. And the diaphragm stuff I use because like I say, I'm, I'm super lazy as an actor. So I got this part in Bad Monkey. I'm playing this shaman. I get the part and then I freak out.

• 2:01:30Tim Ferriss?

  I can't wait to see this.

• 2:01:31Speaker 05

  Because I'm thinking, how do I play somebody who talks to manatees? And I don't want to.

• 2:01:38Speaker 05

  I don't want to have to technically figure that out as an actor. That's gonna be way too much work. So, sign me up for this thing with this guy named Irwan Lekour, who does natural movement. You probably know who he is.

• 2:01:50Tim Ferriss?

  I do.

• 2:01:50Speaker 05

  He also would concur that the diaphragm is the most important muscle. He's all about breathing and the course was all about breathing and meditation. And Irwan believes, for me it's true. It may not be true for other people, I don't know, but for me it's true. The thoughts are either trying to figure out problems, which we all do, what's, how do I get from here to there? What's two plus two equal? That kind of thing. Or it's a conversation that you're writing the script and you're delivering to yourself.

• 2:02:23Tim Ferriss?

  When you say that, you mean these are like the stories you're creating?

• 2:02:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, so this is what Irwan believes. In a breath hold where you feel stress, because the stress you ultimately feel when you're holding your breath is you're afraid you're gonna die. You're not, because at a certain point, against your will, your body will take over and force you to breathe. So he believes that if you have one thing to think about and meditate on during that breath hold, you can rewire your central nervous system. Now, that sounds like woo woo stuff to a lot of people, but for me, it actually worked. So he said, Scott, what kind of conversations do you have? Are they basically, any one

• 2:03:08Speaker 05

  thing? I said, yeah, they're minor being pissed off. Being angry at somebody took my parking place, or making up this confrontation that I may never have with a casting person, but they're pissed off. So he said, I would suggest that one of your meditations be peace.

• 2:03:28Speaker 05

  Going the other direction. So at the end of this course, he gave us this thing, I've got it on my phone. And it's what it is is six breath holds. You decide how long you want them to be and they shouldn't be killer, but they should be long enough that they're difficult. Because Irwan said, keep telling yourself, I'm getting stronger and better with and because of the stress. There are six and with diminishing amounts of rest between each one. And I do those three times a week. Irwan says, don't do them in succeeding days because it's probably not good for you. And so I don't, but I do this, these breath holds.

• 2:04:10Speaker 05

  And I started doing them here while I got the part of, and I remember at one point,

• 2:04:15Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, this is the part of the shaman.

• 2:04:16Speaker 05

  I sit upright in bed and I yell, wow. And Carol, it's 2:30 in the morning and Carol says, what, what? I said, I found my manatee and his name, he's a French guy. His name is Irwan Lacour.

• 2:04:32Speaker 05

  What I meditate on are peace, clarity and focus. And when I say focus, I do mean physical focus, like a gun sight. I'll pick up tiny spot on the ceiling and as I'm holding my breath, I'll focus on that, but try to find the place of meditation that just lets me live there. And I started off with doing a minute. I think I was doing a minute 15. Anyway, right now I'm doing a minute 46. Yeah. Performance free diving will tell you that of record, my longest breath hold is four minutes and 15 seconds.

• 2:05:12Speaker 05

  You see, it might even be longer now, I don't know. But up here I'm at 140, but what I'm aiming for, I would like by the time I hit 86, the benchmark for me is two minute breath holds. Those are real.

• 2:05:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's very real.

• 2:05:27Speaker 05

  So, uh, but I'm at a minute 40 right now. But what I was going to say about good luck, and this is just pure good luck to the point where I almost just accept it now. When I need to learn something, the best teacher in the world materializes right in front of me.

• 2:05:45Tim Ferriss?

  So I want to ask you about this because it seems like this is going to be a leading question, but it's an uninformed observation. It seems like. From LA to Idaho, you loosen your grasp on something and then this opportunity, this amazing opportunity presents itself for this, this career-changing role.

• 2:06:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:06:06Tim Ferriss?

  And it seems like that's happened a few times. How would you explain that?

• 2:06:10Speaker 05

  I would like to be some kind of intellectual giant, which I am definitely not. I'm probably at average, maybe a little bit above average intelligence, but not much. That's not false modesty. That's for real. I mean, if people ask me, am I a good shot with a handgun? My honest answer is above average. A lot? No. Above average. But I'm a really good instructor. I can teach anybody, probably to expert level, how to shoot a handgun. Am I a good shot with a rifle? Yes, I am. Can I teach people well? How to? No. I'm the world's worst teacher. I don't do anything right. I don't get a consistent spot well and I, I

• 2:06:53Speaker 05

  don't do any of this. I just been doing it since I was so young. I just do it and it works out. My great fortune in life, and I used to be amazed by it, and now I just accept it, is, okay, I got into the actor studio by accident and I got by accident, Lee Strasberg is my own personal standalone teacher and coach. The best in the world. I'd never planned on that happening. It just happened. I'm out at the range shooting. Guy next to me is watching me shoot and he says, you're pretty good at doing this, but I could give you some pointers. Come on over to my house tomorrow and I'll show you what

• 2:07:34Speaker 05

  I know. His name was John Shaw, world champion. Kurt Johnston calls me up when I'm in LA and says, you want to know about combat shooting that's not military, but the real civilian stuff? LAPD, SIS, come on out to the Eagles Nest and meet this guy Scotty Reed. And we become-

• 2:07:58Tim Ferriss?

  We took a course with Scotty Reed.

• 2:08:00Speaker 05

  We become really good friends and-

• 2:08:02Tim Ferriss?

  He's the real deal.

• 2:08:03Speaker 05

  He's my teacher. I'm down in the Baja. This is how stupid I truly am. I'm down in the Baja and for two years I've been scuba diving without any instruction and I should be dead. I used my BC at almost 100 feet to rocket myself to the surf.

• 2:08:23Speaker 05

  So I'm in this bar and I've just spent a day doing this. Oh, man. And I'm talking about it like I'm the coolest person that ever lived and this guy walks up to me in his sixties, pot bellied guy and he looks at me and he said, "You're a real asshole." And for whatever reason, I don't know if it was in his, what about him saying that to me, but I came to attention. And I said, "Why, sir?" And he got a big grin and he looked at me and he said, "Okay, you're Army Airborne or Marine, which one?" And I said, "Marine Corps, sir." And he laughed and he said, "I'm here with my girlfriend. I'm staying in that room. You show up tomorrow and give me the next six days of your life.

• 2:09:08Speaker 05

  Show up tomorrow with coffee at eight forty-five, not before, not after, and I'll teach you how to scuba dive and certify you." And then he walks out of the bar. And the owner of the bar, this guy John Arlen, walks over to me and I tell him about it. He said, "Do you have any idea who that was?" And I said, "No." He said, "That was James Stewart." I said, "James Stewart, Jimmy Stewart, the actor?" He said, "No, like Jim Stewart, Dive Master Emeritus at Scripps Institute. Jim Stewart, who wrote the syllabus for the SEAL themes. Jim Stewart, who's the only person who can sign the chip that says you're allowed to dive in the Antarctica.

• 2:09:46Speaker 05

  Jim Stewart, whose Nally card is number one and Jaco Stolz said is arguably the greatest scuba diver that ever lived. That's who's going to teach you and certify you." And he did. I mean, so, I mean, it's again, again, I'm out here. You're like the first jump of skill acquisition. I'm out here in the summertime and I'm talking about, "What does it feel like to be a bird?" Because when I was in the service, I never free fall. I never did free fall like him and like SF and SEALs do at all. But I've done static line jumps. So I'm telling somebody at this cocktail party, this guy walks up to me and he said, "You want a free fall? I'll teach you. Come over to my house tomorrow afternoon. I'll hang you in front of my porch. I'll teach you malfunctions and major malfunctions and how to deal with them and we'll go jumping."

• 2:10:33Speaker 05

  And I said, why should I trust you? And he said, because I'm four times world champion. I'm the only person allowed to videotape the Golden Knights. If you know anything about jumping, videotaping skydivers is the easily the most dangerous part because of all the stuff you can.

• 2:10:51Tim Ferriss?

  All the things that can go wrong. Yeah.

• 2:10:53Speaker 05

  So I said, are we going to tandem jump? He said, no, you already told me you're a static line jumper. We'll put a two by four in a Cessna. We'll go up. We'll use the two by four to launch ourselves out on the strut of the wing, hang on to it. He said, and you'll go first. I said, what will you do? He said, I'll come after you. He said, just you jump off and establish a hard arch. And he showed me how to do that. And I said, okay, but then what do I do? And he said, well, I'll jump off, catch up with you. I want you to pantomime, but don't do it pantomime. Pull your ripcord and you'll yell to me what your altitude is. We'll go out at hopefully 15,000.

• 2:11:37Speaker 05

  And when you hit 3,000, you don't pantomime anymore. You actually pull the ripcord and pump air into the cells of the parachute. And that's the way it'll work. And it did. It worked that way perfectly because he was so good, he would bullet dive down and be as far from me as I am from you right now.

• 2:11:57Tim Ferriss?

  Like four feet.

• 2:11:58Speaker 05

  But I mean, again, and again, and again, the best person is not like, oh, this person's kind of good at what they do. They're as good at it as anybody on the fucking planet of earth and they're going to teach you. And the one thing I will say, and hopefully whoever is hearing this will take it to heart. There's part of me that's really a good student. And here's the part of me that's really a good student. I'm willing to fall on my ass in front of people. The embarrassment of screwing up and being clumsy and falling on my ass in front of people is not great enough to keep me from doing it. And that's the trick to being a good student.

• 2:12:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I heard someone say recently, very high performer, I'm blanking on attribution, but they were taught by a mentor, something, and I'm paraphrasing, but they said, in order to be excellent at anything, you have to first be willing to be extremely crappy at it.

• 2:12:56Speaker 05

  That's so true. I mean, it's like with martial arts, you've done them enough. So I know I'm talking to somebody. The two of you guys understand this. Okay, so I'm going to Thailand to do this TV show, White Lotus, but I can't really talk about it because they're very secretive. But I'm gonna be in Thailand. So I called up a friend. And just because I love the word Krabi Krabong. I mean, it's so cool. Krabi Krabong. Little babies probably like saying it too. But it's a Thai martial art and it's the weapons side of Muay Thai. When you're really good at it, you use razor sharp double swords. But when you begin it,

• 2:13:34Speaker 05

  it's just rattan sticks. And what I want to do in Thailand is not learn Krabi Krabong or be taught secret moves or any of that. I just want someone to show me the absolute basement cellar foundation. What are the moves that you need to be able to? I know they won't be complicated. I know there'll be something that with just pure repetition, I can do again and again. So that's what I'm gonna do when I get to Thailand.

• 2:14:04Tim Ferriss?

  And you've done a lot of, I mean, you've done a lot of knife work also. I imagine that some of the movement-

• 2:14:08Speaker 05

  Knife stuff, I, yeah, actually do know pretty much about it.

• 2:14:11Tim Ferriss?

  Probably translate really well. One thing you should definitely try to do while you're there, if you can, is go to Lumpini Stadium or Rajadamnon to watch the Muay Thai fights.

• 2:14:21Speaker 05

  I've been to both of those.

• 2:14:22Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, you have?

• 2:14:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I, there, I did a film in Thailand as an actor. I've been in Thailand a few times, but I was there as an actor doing a movie called Off Limits. And it was the king's birthday. And he was turning 60. And if you know, with a lesser vehicle Buddhism, you become an adult at 60. It's the end of the fifth cycle, cycle in 12 years. Yeah. So his birthday was all year long. And we lost locations. And so my week and a half or two week job wasn't gonna happen for at least two months. So I said to them, why don't you just keep me here in a hotel rather than spend first class plane tickets back and forth back?

• 2:15:04Speaker 05

  And I bring Carol over and we can go to Phuket and have fun. So we did that. But while I was there- The movie is kind of a sad movie to me because two of my friends who were in the movie, who played much bigger parts than me, are no longer alive. One was Gregory Hines, who I loved. And Gregory I knew from martial arts, from doing Korean martial arts in New York. He was really good at it. He's the only person I ever saw, on his passport, you know, where you put occupation? His said tap dancer.

• 2:15:39Tim Ferriss?

  That's...

• 2:15:40Speaker 05

  He was amazing. He died of liver cancer. And the other was Fred Ward, who died of Alzheimer's. But Fred was, Fred was an amazing athlete. Fred had a silver boot in box francé, Savate.

• 2:15:57Tim Ferriss?

  Savate, yeah.

• 2:15:58Speaker 05

  And when he was in Thailand, he trained Muay Thai with the people from Rajan and Nirm.

• 2:16:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah, Rajan.

• 2:16:06Speaker 05

  And so he brought, well, at one point, remember, he brought me in to work out with those guys. I wouldn't hit palm trees with my hands raised like that, but they had heavy bags and stuff like that, too. You know, and Fred told me that God gave me a right hook, and I said, yeah, I know that part. But we went, Fred and I went across the border illegally into what was then Burma, in the, up in the Golden Triangle at...

• 2:16:32Tim Ferriss?

  Dangerous area.

• 2:16:33Speaker 05

  Three Pagoda Pass. Yeah, so I had had adventures in Thailand and saw a lot of Muay Thai, yeah.

• 2:16:40Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah. The art of eight limbs, beautiful and brutal and very effective art. I want to revisit for a second this luck, because there's luck, differing degrees of luck, and a lot of it's outside of your control, but it seems like there's certain ways you can increase the surface area in your life that luck can stick to. And one is by being a good student, for instance. That increases the likelihood that luck is going to stick to you. Are there any other recommendations you would have for people who want to increase the type of serendipity and luck that you've experienced? Are there any other ingredients that you can play with?

• 2:17:16Speaker 05

  If you have the good fortune to fall in love with and find yourself with a Jewish girl from Brooklyn. Don't fight her about anything because number one, you're going to lose. And number two, she's going to take you in a much better direction than you ever figured.

• 2:17:31Tim Ferriss?

  Let's go, go deep down that rabbit hole then. So relationship, we've talked about career. We've talked about some fitness, long, durable, good relationships with a partner. Any advice for people out there? Cause especially in your, I would imagine in the world of entertainment, this is a rarity. I would have to think from the outside looking in.

• 2:17:52Speaker 05

  Again, it was my good fortune to just fall completely in love with this woman.

• 2:17:58Tim Ferriss?

  How did the two of you meet?

• 2:18:00Speaker 05

  In a movie theater in New York. The girl I've been kind of not really living with, but semi living with off and on. And I'd broken up and she just tried to kill herself. And I had a friend who now is teaching school in Iraq of all places. His name is Jeff Siggen. So anyway, he called me up and he said, we're going to the movies. Murray Hill Cinema, me and a group of people are going to come with us. And I said, sure. So Carol was one of them. I'd never met her before. I sat next to her in the movie theater. And I just felt these, I didn't touch her or anything. I just felt these waves of,

• 2:18:40Speaker 05

  I don't know what it was, but some, and I'd fallen in lust, probably at least a couple thousand times in my life. And pursued that, you know, with full vigor, but I'd never really fallen in love. Anyway, so the movie came to an end and everybody got up to leave. And for whatever reason, I turned to Carol and I said, I think I want to sit through this and watch it again. She said, yeah, me too. So we sat through the whole movie again, not even touching. And the movie came to an end and in that period of time, it was like magical. We walked out of the theater and there was probably half a foot of snow everywhere. So we went out and we played in the snow and it was getting late and Carol said,

• 2:19:23Speaker 05

  and I was doing a play, but I was off that night. She said, you want to spend the night? And I said, yeah. Oh yeah. So I went over and she cooked spaghetti and meatballs and we had beer. And at the end of dinner, she went into the bedroom, came out with a pillow, threw it on the couch and said, this is a, turns into a bed, there are blankets on it. Have a good night. Went back into the bedroom, shut the door and went to sleep. I went, okay. So the next morning, we had breakfast and we played in the snow some more. And I was gonna say goodbye to her. And I thought, I'm not gonna even try to hug her and kiss her, cuz if I do with this and she does one of those pullaways,

• 2:20:07Speaker 05

  my whole world will collapse. How I knew that, I don't know. So I said I had a really good time and held my hand, I shook her hand goodbye. And then, for the next week, I would open my, I had predictably a little black book and I would open it up and I would call a phone number and a young woman would answer hello, hello, and I wouldn't say anything and I would just hang up. And I went through one phone and finally I thought, who you kidding? You wanna see her? That's who you wanna see. So I called her up and I told her my TV was broken and there was something I wanted to watch on television. That Saturday night, I think it was, and she said, okay. So I get down to her apartment.

• 2:20:51Speaker 05

  She's got makeup on and she's all dressed up and she's, oh, I've got a date tonight, but you know where the fridge is. And there's the, there's the TV and so have, knock yourself out. And I sat literally two feet away from her, I was so pissed off, I was just fucking really pissed off. If I had been a dog, I would have been growling.

• 2:21:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:11Speaker 05

  So I'm wa- looking at the T, I'm not watching the TV. And I hear the downstairs bell go dong dong. And I hear Carol say, I remember the guy's name to this day, Earl. She said, okay, Earl, I'll buzz you in. And I'm wa- looking at the TV and I'm hearing the front door open and I'm hearing Earl say, whoa, you look hot tonight. And I hear Carol say, listen, Earl, an old friend of my brother's just dropped by, I haven't seen him in a long time. I'm not gonna help with you tonight. You can see the emotion I'm filled with right now.

• 2:21:47Tim Ferriss?

  I can.

• 2:21:49Speaker 05

  And I went.

• 2:21:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 2:21:51Speaker 05

  She shut the door. Walked into the living room. And that was about fifty-five years ago.

• 2:22:00Tim Ferriss?

  Wow. Incredible. What would Carol add to this genesis story if she were sitting here with us? What else would she add?

• 2:22:11Speaker 05

  Tell me I was full of shit and wrap it up and you got, you got shopping to do for me today.

• 2:22:21Speaker 05

  This I'll say about her because she's not here right now. And I've seen it with enough people. And what it is about her, I, I don't know, and maybe I don't want to know. But even with, he's no longer alive, but I remember when she and I first met Freddie Fields, who was the toughest, hardest ass agent Hollywood is old school has ever seen. Within 10 minutes of meeting her, he desperately wanted her approval. I've never seen anybody around her who doesn't want her to say, you're okay. What is that about her? She comes from, I think now it's 30, 35 unbroken generations of Jewish rabbis and Israeli airborne, whatever.

• 2:23:06Speaker 05

  I don't know, maybe that's part of it, but that is true about her. People want her to say they're okay. What that quality is in her, I don't know, but it's there, that's for sure.

• 2:23:19Tim Ferriss?

  She's an amazing woman. She is funny.

• 2:23:22Speaker 05

  You know, and doesn't take seriously a lot of the stuff I do and laughs at it and keeps sort of like properly puts me in my place.

• 2:23:31Tim Ferriss?

  I have to ask, and I may get the name wrong here. You mentioned Gregory Hines. You spent some time, at least as I understand it, a brief but intense period with modern dance, I think. And let's see if this goes somewhere, playing pool with Nuryev in New York City. Is my game, the name right?

• 2:23:48Speaker 05

  No, that was, that was. I was dancing with a guy named Matt Maddox, who was phenomenal. And I remember at one point I said, how do I get better at this? It was when I quit dancing almost altogether. He said, stop acting, stop doing martial arts, stop wrestling, working out, don't do anything else, just dance, you want to get better. You're at that point right now. And I quit dancing because I.

• 2:24:12Tim Ferriss?

  Couldn't go all in.

• 2:24:13Speaker 05

  I ran into Nuryev while we were doing the right stuff in San Francisco and New York City Ballet had moved to San Francisco for the year. And I met him and he had seen Urban Cowboy. And he told me that I was a much realer, better cowboy than John Travolta would ever be. And by the way, John Travolta pretty much sucked as a dancer too. So I remember at one point, we were down in the basement of this place called Toska's, a bar in New York. I mean, I'm sorry, in San Francisco.

• 2:24:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:47Speaker 05

  They had a pool table.

• 2:24:48Tim Ferriss?

  Famous.

• 2:24:49Speaker 05

  And we were shooting pool and drinking. Me, in a minor way, he in a major way. Vodka. I remember at one point, I said to him, "Boy, you Russians can really hold your vodka." And he stopped, got really angry, looked at me, and he said, "I am not Russian." And I said, "What are you?" He said, "I'm Latvian." That was the first time it ever dawned on me that these parts of Russia that I thought were kind of, along with Putin, were actually Russian, were more like Ukraine. They had their own identity, their own sense of who they were, and it meant something. It certainly

• 2:25:32Speaker 05

  did to Nurya. He was, in some ways, the best physical shape of any human being I've ever been around. I watched him go down a flight of long stairs on his hands. I mean, he was... He would invite me to come and watch the New York City Ballet work out. And the Makarova, who was the best prima ballerina in the world at the time, I would watch her on point, not coming down from point, spinning one direction, three directions, four, back and forth, chain-smoking two camels at the same time.

• 2:26:05Tim Ferriss?

  (laughing)

• 2:26:06Speaker 05

  It was the weirdest world, because it was a world where there was zero fitness in that way, and yet they were the outrageous athletes. I mean, like, stuff that triple-back, black belts in Shodokhan couldn't even dream about doing. These people did easily.

• 2:26:23Tim Ferriss?

  I did want to talk about poetry, if that's possible.

• 2:26:26Speaker 05

  Okay, sure.

• 2:26:27Tim Ferriss?

  I believe you've written a fair amount of poetry. What is the... And we already spoke earlier a bit, as we were discussing Judaism, of these scriptures as poetry slash parables for living.

• 2:26:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:26:38Tim Ferriss?

  What does poetry mean to you? Why write poetry? Why read poetry?

• 2:26:44Speaker 05

  Poetry to me is the, along with physical art scratching on the side of a wall.

• 2:26:51Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, look at that. This is one of, one of your books, Friction Zone, Scott Glenn.

• 2:26:56Speaker 05

  It's the most elemental way that human beings have to communicate ideas and feelings, real deep ideas and feelings. And also because, as I said, I grew up with probably, but I don't want to know for sure, the myth that I'm directly related to Lord Byron, who had a clubfoot, was crippled, but swam the Hellespont and fought in Greeks' War of Liberation from Turkey. And he did all this stuff and was, you know, an outrageous coxman and mainly he was a poet. So I've lived with the belief that I have that in, in me. But what happened with Carol was I

• 2:27:38Speaker 05

  wrote a poem to her every Christmas, Hanukkah time. And at a certain point, our 50th anniversary, she said, I want to publish these. Is it okay with you? And I said correctly, it's not up to me. I'm not a, I can say Indian giver because I've got Comanche blood and so I don't mind using the word. If I give something, it's yours. It's not mine. You can rip up those pages and wipe your ass with it. So she said, well, I'm going to publish it, self-publish. So that was Room Service. That's not that book. And then during the pandemic, there was no acting happening anywhere. And then right after that, I had a brief period of time when I could work and then

• 2:28:22Speaker 05

  the, the strike happened. But during the pandemic, which was about two years long, all I could really do, aside from work out and hanging out with Carol, was write poetry. I now wouldn't even know if I would call it observations. I leave it to other people to say whether that's poetry or not. I don't know. But the thing about the pandemic that I realized with relationships is a lot of people who were in love with each other had to discover whether they liked each other. And what I discovered with Carol was I liked her better than anybody I knew.

• 2:29:00Speaker 05

  Even to this day, we're like agoraphobic hermits. We'd have no problem. I don't need the company of anybody. Anyway, that friction zone is kind of what came out of the pandemic. And it's not big, heavy duty stuff. You know what friction zone is? Friction zone is where you want to be with a big, heavy motorcycle like a Harley Davidson to drive it slowly. You're slipping the clutch, constantly slipping the clutch with a little bit of power on. So the metaphor for that just, anyway.

• 2:29:37Tim Ferriss?

  How do you apply that metaphor outside of riding a motorcycle like that?

• 2:29:41Speaker 05

  Trusting that your body will do the right thing. So when you're riding a, say, a big Harley, I can tell you this axiomatically. When you're driving a big Harley and you're going over 25 miles an hour, you ride it like any other motorcycle. If it's a street bike, just remember the following dictum. Front brake until you're really sure about how it works only. Stay away from the rear brake. Dirt bike, the opposite. If you're going under 25 miles an hour, if you're going under 12 miles an hour, you keep the power on, slipping the clutch, and you will go where your head looks. If you look down at the ground, I guarantee you, you're going to dump the bike.

• 2:30:27Tim Ferriss?

  I like the metaphor. So we're going to wrap this up. I'm wondering, just as a way of landing this plane and wrapping up, what advice, let's just say 10 years from now, your grandkids are listening to this and they're wondering what life advice?

• 2:30:42Speaker 05

  I would give them both the lessons I learned from Sir Lawrence and from my dad, which is if you love it, make it your life. Right along with that, be tenacious. Learn that the most important thing about being knocked down is getting back up. And if you can put yourself in the spot where you say, I don't care how many times I get knocked down, I'm getting back up every single time and going after what I want, that's the answer. I mean, again, I'm at a bar with Lawrence Olivier, who created the National Theatre of England, who was the biggest movie star in the world, was the most creative stage actor in the world and director. He'd done everything. My question to him was,

• 2:31:27Speaker 05

  What is it that you need to make it in this business? Is it timing? Right place at the right time? Is it contacts, knowing the right people? Or is it just working on your skills? And becoming better and better at what you do? He said, "My dear boy, none of the above. Develop very strong jaw muscles. Learn how to bite on and not let go." I said, "You're telling me it's just pure tenacity?" His answer was, "Yes. If you're a monk outside the gates with a beggar's bowl, and you stay out there long enough, they'll finally get sick of seeing you. Open the gates and let you in."

• 2:32:07Tim Ferriss?

  Fantastic. Scott, thank you so much for taking the time.

• 2:32:11Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 2:32:11Tim Ferriss?

  What fun.

• 2:32:12Speaker 05

  I flabbed away a lot.

• 2:32:14Tim Ferriss?

  That's the whole point. That's the whole blueprint. And maybe we'll get a chance to go out and shoot again. And for those people listening, I think a little birdie told me that with open sights, you can still hit targets at 400 yards, maybe beyond.

• 2:32:27Speaker 05

  I don't know about it. There was a time in my life, and I have witnesses that, because it sounds out, I could with steel sights hit 600 yards. Whether I can right now at 85, probably not. But who knows? You know, I could get the dragon off down. In warm weather, I'm gonna, I'll give it a shot. To use a horrible, horrible metaphor.

• 2:32:52Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I'm curious to see if I can get my ass upside down on the feet up after this, after being inspired by your daily routine. So, thank you so much for the time. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading.

• 2:33:37Tim Ferriss?

  Albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Shopify, one of my absolute favorite companies and they make some of my favorite products.

• 2:34:19Tim Ferriss?

  Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide and I've known the team since 2008 or 2009. But prior to that, I wish I had personally had Shopify in the early 2000s when I was running my own ecommerce business. I tell that story in the Four Hour Work Week, but the tools then were absolutely atrocious and I could only dream of a platform like Shopify. In fact, it was you guys, my dear readers, who introduced me to Shopify when I polled all of you about best ecommerce platforms around 2009 and they've only become better and better since. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or getting ready for your IPO, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel.

• 2:35:04Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:35:45Tim Ferriss?

  Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify, that's S-H-O-P-I-F-Y, Shopify.com/Tim. Go to Shopify.com/Tim to take your business to the next level today. One more time, all lowercase, Shopify.com/Tim.

• 2:36:03Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:36:46Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:37:31Tim Ferriss?

  manage stress. Now, I do my best, always, to eat nutrient-dense meals. That is the basic, basic, basic, basic requirement, right? That is why things are called supplements. Of course, that's what I focus on, but it is not always possible. It is not always easy. So part of my routine is using AG1 daily. If I'm on the road, on the run, it just makes it easy to get a lot of nutrients at once and to sleep easy, knowing that I am checking a lot of important boxes. So each morning, AG1. That's just like brushing my teeth, part of the routine. It's also NSF certified for sports, so professional athletes trust it to be safe. And each pouch of AG1 contains exactly-

• 2:38:12Tim Ferriss?

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