#234: Marie Kondo -- The Japanese Tidying Master

Marie Kondo (@MarieKondo https://twitter.com/MarieKondo/, also known as "KonMari") is a Japanese organizing consultant, author, and entrepreneur. She developed a revolutionary method of organizing known as the KonMari Method, which consists of gathering together everything you own, one category at a time, and then keeping only those things that "spark joy" -- as well as choosing a dedicated place to store them. Going far beyond a typical tidying how-to, her method is a way of life and a state of mind. Marie captured the findings in her mega-best-selling books, including The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1607747308/offsitoftimfe-20 and its follow-up, Spark Joy: An Illustrated Master Class on the Art of Organizing and Tidying Up http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1607749726/offsitoftimfe-20. Her books have sold more than seven million copies and have been published in more than forty countries. Kondo's methods have become so famous that her last name has become a verb, 'Kondo-ing,' and people who share her specific values are referred to as 'Konverts.' She has been named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people http://time.com/collection-post/3822899/marie-kondo-2015-time-100/. Marie is also the Founder and Chief Visionary Officer of KonMari Media Inc. https://konmari.com/ ("KMI"), a US-based startup with a mission to "Organize the World" by combining the power of technology and a network of Konverts and partner organizations. KMI also recently launched a KonMari Consultant Training Program https://konmari.com/consultants/ and certification process. We dig into Shintoism, Marie's upbringing, specific details of her method, and much more. Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This podcast is brought to you by 99Designs http://99designs.com/tim, the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. I have used them for years to create some amazing designs. When your business needs a logo, website design, business card, or anything you can imagine, check out 99Designs. I used them to rapid prototype the cover http://99designs.com/tim for The Tao of Seneca, and I've also had them help with display advertising and illustrations. If you want a more personalized approach, I recommend their 1-on-1 service http://99designs.com/tim, which is non-spec. You get original designs from designers around the world. The best part? You provide your feedback, and then you end up with a product that you're happy with or your money back. Click this link http://www.99designs.com/tim and get a free $99 upgrade. Give it a test run... This podcast is also brought to you by MeUndies http://meundies.com/tim. I've spent the last year wearing underwear from these guys http://meundies.com/tim 24/7, and they are the most comfortable and colorful underwear I've ever owned. MeUndies are designed in LA and made from sustainably-sourced MicroModal fabric 3 times softer than cotton. Even better, it includes free shipping. If you don't love your first pair of MeUndies, they'll hook you up with a new pair or a refund. If you love the product, they have a subscription offer where you can save up to 33% after your first pair. Check out MeUndies.com/Tim http://meundies.com/tim to see all the different options.

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• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:08Speaker 02

  No, this isn't an appropriate time.

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  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:07Tim Ferriss?

  path or a different option, and that is the one-to-one project service. So, in a number of cases, and I'll give you one example, when I wanted to create the cover for my audiobook, The Tao of Seneca, this was a very important project to me, I decided to use their one-to-one project service. And with this service, you can invite a specific designer to your project, agree on a price, and then work together until you're satisfied. And they allow you to iterate and provide feedback and all this stuff. And I haven't shared it yet, but we also got some incredibly good, really some of the best illustrations I've ever seen from using this one-to-one project service with a handful of different designers and illustrators. It blew my mind. 99designs makes this all very easy and efficient. So

• 1:49Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:11Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:56Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:29Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. Hisashiburi ja neka. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. That little hisashiburi ja neka, which is long time no see, basically, in Japanese is a taste of things to come. I'm so excited about this episode. Every episode, I'm excited, and it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, whether they're big wave surfers, retired Navy SEAL commanders, chess prodigies, entertainers, or otherwise. And this particular episode is a first for me, meaning it is an interpreted episode. So we have Japanese featured. It was recorded in Tokyo, where I got to meet Mariye Kondo,

• 4:13Tim Ferriss?

  who is sometimes referred to as Mary Kondo, so you can think of her that way if you like, but it is actually pronounced Mari- Marie Kondo. And here's a quote, just to give you some flavor, a taste of things to come. Quote, "You could say that tidying orders the mind while cleaning purifies it." That is from Marie. She is a Japanese organizing consultant, author and entrepreneur, also known as Kon Marie. And you can find her on Twitter and elsewhere @MarieKondo. That's M A R I E K O N D O. And you probably know her because of a book. And the book is "The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering

• 4:55Tim Ferriss?

  and Organizing," which has sold a gazillion copies. It has become a movement. She developed this particular method of organizing, which is known as the Kon Marie method, which you can see is an inversion of her name, which consists of gathering together everything you own, one category at a time, and then keeping only those things that, quote, "spark joy," end quote. And we actually talk about how that is translated in Japanese, and I had a blast with this, as well as choosing dedicated places to store them, et cetera. But it goes far beyond just tidying how-to. Her method is really a way of life and a state of mind, and I observed this in person. I've spent some time with her since. She has the most calming voice imaginable, which is why I play a decent amount of her speaking Japanese in this.

• 5:40Tim Ferriss?

  And for those long-term listeners, you know that I lived in Japan in high school. I love Japan and Japanese. And we were very, very lucky to have Jun Gremminger, who works with Marie, to fill in last minute. We had an interpreter cancellation of sorts, logistical snafu, and Jun slipped in very seamlessly to help with everything. So, thank you, Jun. Marie has captured, as I mentioned, the findings of her various clientele and all of her different organizational approaches and philosophies in her mega bestselling books, the first of which I mentioned, "The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up," and its follow-up, "Spark Joy," subtitle, an illustrated masterclass on the art and organizing.

• 6:26Tim Ferriss?

  Art of organizing and tidying up. I need to organize my brain. Her books have sold more than 7 million copies and have been published in more than 40 countries. Now, Kondo goes way beyond just author in Japan. Her methods have become so famous that her last name has become a verb, "Kondo-ing", and people who share her specific values worldwide are referred to and refer to themselves as "converts" with a K. She's been named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People. She's also the founder and chief visionary officer of Konmari Media Incorporated, KMI, which is a US-based startup with the mission to organize the world by combining the power of technology in a network of "converts" with a K,

• 7:10Tim Ferriss?

  which is exploding, as well as partner organizations. And KMI has recently launched a Konmari consultant training program and certification process. They are doing tons and tons of stuff. So this episode is an experiment. I had a blast with it. Mari is as lovely, 10 times lovelier than you would hope in your wildest dreams. Really, just one of the most calming, fascinating people I've met in a long time. We dig into Shintoism. We dig into her upbringing. We dig into specific, nitty-gritty details of her method. We talk about how it applies elsewhere. We talk about morning routines. We talk about all sorts of stuff. So, without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging

• 7:53Tim Ferriss?

  and very experimental conversation with Mariye Kondo, the Japanese tidying master.

• 8:02Tim Ferriss?

  Mari-san, welcome to the show.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Hi, Konnichiwa.

• 8:05Tim Ferriss?

  Konnichiwa. So, there are so many things I want to ask you because I've read your books and I am a huge fan of Japan. So, thank you for making the time.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Hi, kochi no koto, it's very happy to meet you.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Thank you very much. I'm very happy to meet you as well.

• 8:21Tim Ferriss?

  So, I think we should start at the beginning, and that is your childhood. So, could you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and how you grew up?

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Hi, eito, watashi wa mou tokyo umare no tokyo soudachi desu.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  I was born and raised in Japan.

• 8:35Tim Ferriss?

  Which part of Tokyo?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Kondo-ku ttei basha tte o sonji desu ka?

• 8:39Tim Ferriss?

  Kondo-ku?

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Hai, tokyo to ni wa 23-ku no ku ga, 23 no ku ga aru desu kyo. Sonnaka no, hontou ni chisai ku no hito desu.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  There are 23 wards in Tokyo, and I was brought up in Kondo-ku, the Kondo Ward, a small ward in Tokyo.

• 8:54Tim Ferriss?

  And did she have brothers or sisters? What did her parents do?

• 8:59Speaker 02

  はい、兄弟は上に兄がいて、下に妹が一人の3人兄弟です。 で、父は医者ですね。で、母は専業主婦です。

• 9:09Speaker 03

  I had an older brother and a younger sister. My dad was a doctor and my mom was a homemaker.

• 9:14Tim Ferriss?

  What type of medicine did her dad practice?

• 9:17Speaker 02

  内科の医者です。

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Internal doctor?

• 9:20Tim Ferriss?

  Internist, probably.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  Internist, okay.

• 9:23Tim Ferriss?

  What characterized her childhood? Like, would she say she was a happy child, a very obsessive child? How would she describe her younger self?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  それでいうと私の子供の頃のキャラクターは一言で言うと地味な子でした。

• 9:38Speaker 03

  I didn't stand out much.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  とにかく小さい頃から片付けにすごく興味があって、本当に5歳の時にはもう母が定期購読していたいわゆる生活誌というのを熟読しているような子供でした。

• 9:52Speaker 03

  So since I was a little kid, I loved organizing. When I was 5, I started reading magazines that had to do with homes and organizing.

• 10:02Tim Ferriss?

  So I heard that she also would take recess time at school and organize books in the classroom and do that type of thing. Why did she have that interest?

• 10:15Speaker 02

  そうですね。片付けに興味を持ったきっかけとしてはもう2つあるんですが、一つは私の母が専業主婦なんですが、母親がすごく楽しそうに家事をしているというのが印象的だったんです。

• 10:29Speaker 03

  There are a couple of reasons why I was interested in this since I was young. First of all, my mom was a homemaker, and she looked so happy doing things around the house.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  で、実際に私の母がよく私に言っていたのは本当にこの専業主婦という仕事はすごく素晴らしくて、私がこう家を綺麗に整えていい状態にしておくことによって、あの父がこう元気に働きにできたりとか、あの子供たちが健康で育っていく、これは素晴らしい仕事なんだっていうことを言ってくれていたんです。

• 11:00Speaker 03

  My mother told me that being a homemaker is great. I can create an organized and clean home, and that way my dad would be able to work and my kids would be able to stay healthy.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  ただ、そうは言ってもうちの母は家事はすごく好きだっていうふうに言っていたんですが、別に片付けが特に得意というわけではなくて、あの私の小さい頃のお家というのはいわゆる

• 11:24Speaker 02

  別に散らかりすぎてはいないけれども、そんなに常にスッキリしてるわけでもなくて 收納を開けたら物がたくさん詰まっているみたいな、そんな感じのお家でした

• 11:34Speaker 03

  My mom loved doing chores, but she wasn't necessarily perfect at it. My home wasn't that disorganized, but it wasn't necessarily super neat either. There were a lot of things in storage.

• 11:45Tim Ferriss?

  So it sounds like her mom was a very good homemaker, but didn't specialize in the tidying up aspect of things. At what point did she become... I read somewhere that she was an attendant maiden. I don't know what that translates to exactly, but at a Shinto shrine. I'm really interested in talking about that. So could you maybe tell the story, if that's accurate, of how she became involved with a Shinto shrine? And just to maybe help describe the experience? Because a lot of my fans have asked to hear more about maybe that Shinto influence? Because they see some of that influence in her recommendations.

• 12:30Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe that's at least their impression?

• 12:33Speaker 02

  はい。 えっと、 Shintoっていう言葉に関して、 私は皆さんが興味を持ってくださるよりもっと身近にあってすごく自然なイメージなんですね。 で、私がどうしてそこの神社で働いていたことがあったかっていうと、 それ自体はたまたま

• 12:55Speaker 02

  神子さんの募集というか、お仕事のアルバイトの募集の広告を見たことがきっかけで、 なんとなくやってみようっていうくらいの本当に軽い気持ちで始めた仕事なんですね。 ただ、私自身はすごく小さな時から、12歳ですね。12歳くらいの小学生の時から 神社に行くとすごく心がスッキリするとか、とても自分の中が整うなっていう経験をすごくしていて、 すごく神社というものが身近にあったんです。

• 13:26Speaker 03

  So regarding Shintoism, it's more of a very natural part of my life. The reason why I worked there was there was an opening and they were hiring an attendant maiden. And I saw help wanted and it was a very, very casual decision. When I was 12 years old in elementary school, I felt, even at that age, I felt like when I went to a shrine, I felt very peaceful and put together inside.

• 13:50Tim Ferriss?

  She stayed at that job for how long? Or how long did she continue to do that job?

• 13:56Speaker 02

  学生時代を通してだったので、高校3年生の時から大学4年、日本は大学4年生なんですけど、4年までなので5年間ですね。

• 14:08Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so 5 years. And what does an attendant maiden do?

• 14:13Speaker 02

  このおみっ子さんの仕事内容としてはすごくとてもシンプルで、基本的には、 そういえばご参拝してくださった方に対してお守りをやお札などお預けしたりですとか、 あとは境内のお掃除ですねという仕事を主にやっていました。

• 14:32Speaker 03

  So the work is very simple. There are people who come to pray and we saw them lucky charms and we also cleaned the area as well.

• 14:40Tim Ferriss?

  Why did she stop?

• 14:41Speaker 02

  これはもう私が学生時代にやっていたお仕事で、大学ですね、 終了と同時に新卒で別の会社に入社したのをきっかけに辞めることになりました。

• 14:54Speaker 03

  So I did this as a student. So after I graduated college, I got a different full-time job.

• 14:59Tim Ferriss?

  So it was a college gig. And the sort of switch that I'd love to hear more about is, how did she, what was the experience or how did she go from a focus on throwing things away to things that give joy?

• 15:13Speaker 02

  はい。これにはストーリーがあって、本当に先ほどお伝えしたように、 私は小さい頃からとにかく片付けの研究をずっと続けていたわけなんですが、 当時は私にとって片付けイコール捨てることだったですね。 ただ、自分の中で物を捨てても捨てても全然すっきりお家がしてこないっていうことにすごく長い間悩んでいたんです。

• 15:37Speaker 03

  There's a story behind this. So as I mentioned before, I loved studying and experimenting with organizing since a young age. But at the time, for me, organizing meant throwing things away. But even when I threw things away, I didn't feel like I was organized.

• 15:52Tim Ferriss?

  And why is that?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  それはどうしてかっていうと、私がいつもものに対していつもマイナスの感情で見ていたからなんですね。 とにかくものを捨てたくて捨てたくてしょうがない病気に私はかかっていて、私は当時の自分のことを捨てるマシンっていうふうに呼んでるんですけれども、そんな状態だったので、何かを見てもこれは捨てられるんじゃないかとか、これはもう古いんじゃないかとか、もののその捨てるべき理由っていうのを探し続けてうちに、私がどんどんストレスが溜まっていってしまったんです。

• 16:25Speaker 03

  So this was a very negative way of looking at things. At the time, I was throwing away so many things that I called myself a discarding machine. I was always looking for reasons to throw things away, and this became extremely stressful.

• 16:37Tim Ferriss?

  So it sounds like it had a negative connotation. So the act of cleaning up with a focus on throwing things out sort of acquired a negative connotation. So the sparking joy I want to talk about, because I think people who've read your books will be familiar with some of these concepts, but for people who haven't read the books, I'll take a stab at it. One of the things you're known for, you're known for many different things, but one would be looking at things in terms of, say, categories instead of rooms, right? Then you also have holding these objects in your hands once you put everything in a category, say, on the floor, and asking if it sparks joy. So I want to talk about the Japanese version of that.

• 17:20Tim Ferriss?

  So is the word "tokimeku"?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  はい、ときめきです。

• 17:23Tim Ferriss?

  So I would love for her to describe in Japanese what it feels like when it's an object that she should keep.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  そうですね。先ほどの私がときめくっていうことに気づいたきっかけって多分最後までお話してなかったかと思うんですけれども。 それでいうと、本当にときめくものって本当に大事なんだっていうふうに気づいたのは、そのさっきもお伝えしたように捨てるものを探し続けて、ストレスが溜まって、最終的に片付けの色で失神してしまったっていう経験があるんですね。

• 17:57Speaker 03

  So I realized that the concept of spark joy is extremely important. As I said before, I was extremely stressed out when I was trying to identify things that I could discard. And as you may all know, I've actually passed out from organizing too much.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  で、その時に季節から起き上がった瞬間に、本当に自分の頭の中で本当にそのことに気づいたのは 片付けで大事なことっていうのは本当に捨てるものではなくて、残すものにフォーカスするべきなんだ いかにこの自分が住んでるお部屋の中から自分を幸せにしてくれるもの 本当に自分がときめくものを持つことが大切なんだっていうふうにひらめたですね それが本当に私がそのときめくっていうことに関しての概念を見つけた瞬間だったんです

• 18:44Speaker 03

  When I woke up, in my head, I was thinking, what's important in organizing is not focusing on discarding, but really focusing on what to keep. So it's really how to make your room into a space that sparks joy, full of things that spark joy for you. And so when I woke up, this was really the first time that I realized the Spark Joy concept.

• 19:05Tim Ferriss?

  This is waking up after passing out?

• 19:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:07Tim Ferriss?

  Right. What is so important about thanking objects? And when did that start for her? So being grateful to objects. Why is that important and when did it start?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  はい、このものを捨てる時に感謝をする経験というのはいつから始めたのかっていうのは 正直言って覚えてないくらい自然に私が始めていたことなんですけれども 私が片付けコンサルタントとして仕事を始めた19歳の時にはもうすでにやっていたことです

• 19:36Speaker 03

  Showing appreciation for things, that's, I don't really remember when I started. When I started becoming an organizing consultant at age 19, this was something that I already did.

• 19:47Tim Ferriss?

  And at 19, that's when her friends started asking her to help with tidying? Offering her money?

• 19:55Speaker 02

  そうなんです。もともとは私の趣味で、周りの友達のお家を片付けさせてもらうっていう活動を続けていたんですけれども そのうち私が

• 20:06Speaker 02

  行ったお友達の間で噂になったことが こんまりちゃんがおうちに遊びに来ると 家がめちゃくちゃ綺麗になるっていうような 噂話が広がるようになって でそのうち全然知らない方からも ご連絡をいただくようになって 本当にお金を払うから来てほしいっていう風に言われるようになって 仕事になるようになっていたんです

• 20:25Speaker 03

  Yes, it was originally just a hobby. I loved organizing my friends' houses. But then word spread and people started saying, "Hey, if Marie goes over to your house, your house will become super organized." That's when people that I didn't know started reaching out to me and saying "They'll pay for the service."

• 20:44Tim Ferriss?

  Why is it important to thank the objects before discarding them? Because this is something, I think, a lot of Americans, at least people who have sent me questions to ask, they wonder, "Do I really have to do it? And does she recommend doing it out loud? Or is that something that's sufficient to do in your own head?"

• 21:07Speaker 02

  はい、ありがとうございました。 3つ目の質問からお答えすると、それはありがとうっていうことに関しては 別に声を出しても頭の中でもどちらでも大丈夫です。 それを気持ちを一つ一つ自分が持つということがまず大事。これが一つ。

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Let me answer your third question first. You can either say it out loud or in your head. What's important is to really feel that appreciation.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  そしてなんでそんなに感謝をすることが大事なのかというと、 そのもの一つ一つ手放すものに対してさえも一つ一つ感謝をすることによって、 今まで物を捨てることってとても罪悪感があったりすることってありますよね。 その罪悪感の気持ちを自分でしっかり味わって、 手放すことをすごく容易にすることができるからなんです。

• 21:51Speaker 03

  So in regards to your question on why it's important to say thank you to each item, well, when you're saying thank you, or rather, when you're discarding something or when you're throwing something away, it's pretty common to feel guilt. You feel guilty for throwing something away. But it's really important to feel that guilt and... By saying "thank you," it becomes easy to throw away.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  そうですね。例えば例を言った方が多分分かりやすいと思うので、具体的にお伝えすると、 例えば皆さんが捨てるものを迷うもののアイテムの一つとしては、 買ってとっても高かったけれども、ときめかないお洋服があったとしますよね。 で、それって普通はとても捨てにくいものなんですけれども、 例えばそのお洋服の本当のお役目を考えてみるということを私はお勧めしたいんです。 で、そういうふうに考えていくと、例えばその高かったお洋服というのは、 買った瞬間ときめいたっていうのが自分に対してのお役目だったり、 もしくはこういうお洋服は自分にとって似合わないんだなっていうのを教えてくれたのが、 そのお洋服のお役目だっていうことに、そのお洋服と向き合うことでによって分かることができるんです。

• 22:58Speaker 02

  なので、そのしたものを捨てる時に、買った瞬間ときめかせてくれてありがとうとか、 こういうタイプのお洋服は自分に似合わないんだなっていうのを教えてくれてありがとうっていうふうに、 ものに対してそのお役目一つ一つを考えながら処分することによって、 本当に自分にとって大切なものはどんなものなのかとか、 自分がそのものを自分がものを選んできた自分の価値観というのを自分で見つけ合うことができるんです。

• 23:27Speaker 03

  So, for example, one of the things that clients have a really hard time throwing away is expensive clothes. It is usually hard to throw away, but you need to think about the clothing's purpose. What purpose did it have? So, maybe it sparked you joy the moment you bought it, or maybe it taught you that you don't look in a certain type of clothing. So, say "thank you for," you know, say, for example, "thank you for sparking joy when I bought you," or "thank you for teaching me that these kinds of clothes don't look good on me," is one way to do it. Really think about the purpose and really realize what's important to you and what your values are.

• 24:03Tim Ferriss?

  What do, say, we can be specific, American fans of your books and methods, what do they tend not to pay enough attention to? Just in general, maybe they think it's important, but they're like, "Oh, okay." I'll take a look at that, but then they focus on other things. Really, the question is, what do they pay too little attention to? And what do they pay too much attention to, in general?

• 24:27Speaker 02

  そうですね。私が今までお会いした本の読者の方、読者さんの感じを見ると、本当に皆さん、私がむしろ本当に思っている以上に そのコマリメソッドの真髄についてよく理解いただいているなっていうのがはっきり言って一番の印象です。 ただ、例えば一つ申し上げるとすると、例えばその本当にものに対する感謝という場面ですよね。 あの本当に今自分が持っているものに対していかに感謝しているか。 このものがあるから今日は自分が生活できているんだなっていうこの感覚っていうのをもっと感じていただけると、 よりその片付けの効果だったりとかっていうところがもっと出やすいのかなって思います。

• 25:12Speaker 03

  So I've met a lot of my readers and fans, but they really understand the Komori Methodist more than I expected. That's my impression. One thing I wish they would do more of is really feel and show that gratitude toward items. So really feeling their appreciation for each of their belongings.

• 25:30Tim Ferriss?

  What is one of the most difficult things, or some of the most difficult things, that she has given up?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  本当に私はずっと片付けを経験ずっとし続けているので、なんか自分の片付けの経験で印象深かったものがもはや思いやない。

• 25:51Tim Ferriss?

  They have trouble thinking of it, yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  自分の片付けはもう本当に終わってしまっていって、自分の片付け、物議的な片付けしたよ。 ずっとお客様の片付けに向き合ってきたので、今すごく私のことに直接聞かれて、ちょっと考えてしまったっていうことの一つですね。

• 26:07Speaker 03

  I've been constantly tidying my entire life, so honestly, I can't think of anything.

• 26:12Tim Ferriss?

  How has her thinking changed? If it has with a child now? Changed or evolved?

• 26:20Speaker 02

  そうですね。変わったことの一つとしては、 実際まだ私は子供が一歳半とまだ5ヶ月の小さい子供がいたりいるんですけれども、 子供がいると本当に時間がないっていうのをとても自覚していて、 子供が生まれる前の時よりも完璧に綺麗な状態に保つことは、 やはり少しは難しいっていうことに気づきました。

• 26:43Speaker 03

  My kids are still very, very young. I have a one and a half year old and a five month old. What I realized is when you have kids, you really don't have time. It's really hard to make everything perfect.

• 26:54Tim Ferriss?

  How would she suggest people handle that themselves?

• 26:57Speaker 02

  そうですね。まず一つ間違いなく言えるのは、 もうどんな状況であれ、まずは片付けって、 あの、何て言うんだろう。 ちょこちょこした対処療法ではなくて、まずは自分、私がおすすめしているコンマリメソッド。 つまり人生に一度の片付け祭りというのを一回終わらせておくことというのが一番大事だということです。

• 27:21Speaker 03

  Tidying and organizing is not something that you do little by little. So what I suggest is doing it all at once. That's really important.

• 27:28Tim Ferriss?

  So what is that called in English and what is that called in Japanese? Because I just heard it in Japanese. 何か祭り。何て言うんですか？

• 27:35Speaker 02

  片付け祭り。

• 27:37Tim Ferriss?

  片付け祭り。

• 27:38Speaker 03

  片付け祭り。

• 27:39Speaker 02

  お祭りみたいに一定期間を自分で期間を決めてしまって、一気に短期に完璧に片付ける。

• 27:46Tim Ferriss?

  So that is, in effect, I kind of like the sound of it. I mean, this is like a tidying festival, right?

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 27:52Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, a party of sorts, right?

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:54Tim Ferriss?

  What makes a片付け祭り successful?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  そうですね。本当に物一つ一つと向き合って、 最終的に物の片付け、物理的なお部屋の片付けだけではなくて、 自分の価値観っていうもの自体もすごくクリアにしていくこと。 これが私が考えている片付けの最終的なゴールなんです。

• 28:17Speaker 03

  So you really have to face each and every item that you own. Organization and tidying is not just for practical purposes. You really need to make your values clear. So understand what your values are. That's my goal with organizing.

• 28:30Tim Ferriss?

  What would be examples of values that would help with organizing?

• 28:35Speaker 02

  そうですね。自分は一体自分という人間は一体どういう価値観を大切にしている人間なのかっていうのをわかるきっかけになるんですけれども、例えば えっと、今、本当、私のお客様の例なんですけれども、その片付けを終えた後に自分が本当にやりたい仕事に転職をされた方だったりとか、 新しいビジネスを立ち上げられた方だったりですとか、あとはその人付き合いですねということに関しても、本当に自分が付き合いたい人、本当に自分が大切にしたい人と 人とだけ付き合うようになったりっていうふうに、そんな風に物理的に本当に行動が変わっていくようになります。

• 29:13Speaker 03

  So, think about what values do I think are important? So, this is an example of one of my clients, but she got a new job in something that she really wanted to work for. Other examples include people who built their own businesses, or really reexamined their relationships and kept only those who were really important in their lives, in their life.

• 29:34Tim Ferriss?

  So, when they're going through their house and doing this, the all-at-once approach, then the values that guide them relate to their identity as a business person? Or as a...

• 29:47Speaker 03

  So, okay, let me try to clarify that. So, the purpose of organizing is not just to make your house clean, or your room tidy, or anything like that. The end purpose, the end goal, is to really think about what your values are, really clarify what your values are. So, what's important to you? So, in regards to my client examples, there were people who, you know, after they finished organizing and tidying, they were able to reexamine what they wanted in life.

• 30:16Tim Ferriss?

  Right, that clarity transfers to other areas. How would she suggest people deal with a family member who is, I'm sure this is a very common question, a family member who is a hoarder, or does not clean up? Keeps old magazines, old this, old that. Like, how would she suggest, it could be anything, but how would she suggest that they, what would her recommendations be to those people?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  はい。まず一番初めにするべきことというのはちょっと意外かもしれないんですが、まずはそのことは一旦置いておいて、自分の片付けを完璧に終わらせるということなんです。

• 30:53Speaker 03

  First and foremost, you just need to forget about it that other people. You need to finish your own tidying.

• 30:58Tim Ferriss?

  First.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  First.

• 31:00Tim Ferriss?

  まずね。

• 31:00Speaker 03

  まず。

• 31:01Tim Ferriss?

  その後。

• 31:02Speaker 02

  まずその後に、こうやって自分の片付けが終わった後に、私が片付けをやっていて、すごく不思議な経験をすごくたくさんしてるんですけれども、 家族も連れて片付け出すっていう効果がとてもあるんです。

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Then after you're finished tidying, what's really surprising is that a lot of people experience this, but when they, when family members see you tidying, it makes them want to tidy up too.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  片付けって本当に、なんだろう、私の経験なんですけれども、 片付けをすることによって、自分の取り巻くエネルギーっていうのがやっぱり変わっていくんですね。 すごくスッキリしてきたりとか、自分自身がすごくクリアなエネルギーを持っていくようになると、 本当にその家族やお家の中にもすごくそれが伝染していって、すごく不思議な話なんですが、 自分がその片付けをしているっていうことを内緒にして、 片付けをしていた人であっても、知らないうちに家族が片付けを始めるっていう経例もとてもたくさんあるんで。

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Your energy changes after you finish up tidying. You release this clear energy, which is communicated to your family. So even people who have secretly tidied up have come to me and said that their families tidied up after them as well.

• 32:15Tim Ferriss?

  What would her words of advice be to a particularly difficult case? Let's say you finish your own cleaning and tidying, but there's a family member who still is not receiving the message.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  はい。ポイントとしては、まずは収納場所は明確に分けるっていうことがすごく大事なんです。

• 32:35Speaker 03

  First of all, you need to be really clear about categorizing your storage.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  これはお家の中で一緒に暮らしている家族としても、これをルールを明確にするべきだというふうに私は考えていって、 例えば片付けが苦手な旦那さんがいたとして、 そしたらあなたのものを収納する場所はここからここまででこういうふうなんですっていうふうに、 で私の収納場所はここからここなんですっていうふうなものはきっちり決めておくっていうことがすごく大事なんです。 で、そこからはみ出さない限りは、基本的には自分は口を出さないっていうのをやって、ルールとして私はお勧めしています。

• 33:14Speaker 03

  So if you live together as a family, you need to create some rules. So let's say, you know, to your husband, you can say, "This is your space from here to here." Really lay that out and say, you know, "As long as you're within this space, I won't say anything."

• 33:27Speaker 02

  ですね。で、あとは私がよくおすすめしているのは、 もしあなたが本当に完璧に片付けが終わっていて、 自分のものに関して何の片付けも悩みもないっていう状態になっているのであれば、 おすすめなのは、例えばもう、あの、 7、3のものであれば、収納だけは綺麗に整えてあげる、 作り替えてあげるっていうのはすごく効果的です。

• 33:49Speaker 03

  So another thing I recommend is if you're really completely done tidying and you're satisfied with your tidying, you know, just using the husband example. For example, to your husband, you can make storage available for them. That's one way to do it.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  例えば、お洋服を綺麗に畳み直して、綺麗に収納し直してあげるっていうことを 一回やって差し上げるだけで、そのご主人が、 "あ、片付いてる状態ってすごく気持ちいいんだ"とか "楽しいんだ"っていう経験をすることができるんで、 それによってすごく片付けに興味が持ってきて、 っていう風にするケースがとても多いです。

• 34:22Speaker 03

  So for example, you can fold your husband's clothes for them and put it away for them. And that way, your husband can realize, "Oh wow, having a tidy and organized space feels really good." And then he can become interested in tidying up himself.

• 34:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's what one of my ex-girlfriends did a few years ago. But she took, she did it in a very clever way. She would say, and I'm not that messy, but I tend to have a lot of certain things, or I used to. And she would say, "Why don't we just give away one of these and then let me organize the space? And then if you don't like it, I can put it back the way it was." So she, she would volunteer that way. And of course, maybe I'm just too lazy, but once it was fixed, it looked better, felt better. It's like, of course, I'm not gonna ask you to turn it back to how it was. But she was very good at getting that foot in the door. So in any case. So question about kids. I wanna talk about kids a little bit.

• 35:19Tim Ferriss?

  How would you suggest helping to instill the habit of tidiness into kids? Are there any routines or practices that you can have children do when they're young so that they have the habit of tidying?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  お子さんに片付けの習慣をつけさせるのにすごくおすすめな方法は お洋服の正しい畳み方を教えるということなんです。

• 35:44Speaker 03

  What I recommend is teach your kids how to fold clothes in proper way.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  どうしてかっていうと、お洋服というのは毎日自分が確実に使っているもので 確実にしまうっていう習慣があるものですし、明確に自分のものであるという意識があるので このお洋服の畳み方を教えてあげることによって、その片付けの習慣、片付けの意識っていうのはすごくつきやすくなっていきます。

• 36:09Speaker 03

  The reason is clothes is something that everyone uses every day. You use it every day, you have to put it away every day, and it's clearly your own. So by teaching kids how to fold, they'll learn how to organize really quickly, or the concept of organizing and keeping tidy.

• 36:24Tim Ferriss?

  So I was very happy to see her folding method the first time I saw it, which for those people who aren't familiar, and I'm not going to do it justice, but if you're imagining, for instance, a t-shirt laying out in front of you, you could fold the arms in on either side into a vertical column effectively, and then folding it up so that it could be set vertically in a shelf, for instance. But it's also very similar to how I used to fold my judo uniform. And so I got used to, when I was in Japan at age 15 as an exchange student, I was in part of the club system, sports were mandatory, so they called that bukatsu, and I went into the judo. So every day I would have to very nicely fold up my judo uniform two or three times.

• 37:09Tim Ferriss?

  And so I got very accustomed to folding the clothing, and then I would tie it with the belt, the obi, and put it over my shoulder, and off to the train I went. So I was very, I saw the folding method, and it was very natsukashii. Natsukashii is one of those words that's kind of hard in Japanese. For those people who speak any Portuguese, it's similar, it's a little similar to saudade. But it's a little hard to translate into English. Makes me think fondly of my experience in Japan.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  The closest word might be nostalgia.

• 37:41Tim Ferriss?

  Nostalgia, there we go. Yeah, that's the closest, that's probably the closest word. How is the Konmari method different from minimalism? Or when people ask her, is... The Konmari Method Minimalism, how does she answer that?

• 37:55Speaker 02

  はい、声の違いにミニマリズムというのは基本的に本当にミニマムなことを目指していく考え方だと思うんですが、 Konmari Methodというのは量は関係ないんです。 例えば、いくらものを持っていてもその状態にちゃんと自分が納得して自分がときめいている状態であればOKなんですね。 大事なのは常に自分にとってどれくらいのものの量を持っていると幸せなのかということが明確であるということなんです。

• 38:25Tim Ferriss?

  Right, so I think I can, I mean, it sounds like this is very fun for me to explore because what Maria-san was just explaining is that in minimalism you're really focusing on reduction and the sort of minimal amount as the objective, whereas in her method, please correct me if I get any of this wrong, the amount doesn't really matter as much. It's about finding the balance that makes you happy. And as long as that's the case, then it's permissible in so much as it reminds me of, and my fans are probably sick and tired of hearing about me talk about Seneca and Stoicism, but

• 39:06Tim Ferriss?

  Stoics would talk about, in the case of Seneca for instance, riches not being the problem. So you're allowed to have riches as long as the riches don't have you, if that makes sense. So in other words, I mean, it sounds like she's also saying that you can have belongings as long as those are belongings that give you joy, but not when the things we own start owning us.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 39:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. How would you suggest people let go of objects that they inherit from people who die? This was a common question that came up because they feel tremendous guilt about these objects that come from, say, a mother or a father who dies. What would your suggestions be to those people?

• 39:51Speaker 02

  まず、お亡くなになった方の遺品ですねの片付けの考え方としては、 私のおすすめは遺品や思い出品などのちょっと自分にとってだいぶセンチメンタルなものに関する片付けは一番最後にするというのがおすすめです。

• 40:06Speaker 03

  So these fall into the category of sentimental items, so do this last.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  なぜかっていうと

• 40:12Tim Ferriss?

  As a category?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  そうです。なので あの、コマリメソッドっていうのは カテゴリーの順番がとても明確に決まっていて 一番初めがお洋服 で、次が本 次が書類 小物 思い出品の順番になっていくんですが 自分にとって判断がしにくいものは 一番最後にしていくんです で、少しずつその片付けを進めることによって 自分のときめき感度を磨いていくというのがポイントなんです

• 40:39Speaker 03

  The categories that I recommend are clothes, books, documents, komono, and sentimental items.

• 40:45Tim Ferriss?

  In order?

• 40:46Speaker 03

  In order, so that's the order.

• 40:47Tim Ferriss?

  So, could you go through that one more time?

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Sure. First, you clothes, then books, then documents, then komono, which is miscellaneous items.

• 40:56Tim Ferriss?

  Miscellaneous.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  And then lastly sentimental items. And it's really, really hard to judge, you know, what sparks joy and what doesn't spark joy for sentimental items. So you need to do this at the end. So by this time, hopefully, you would have trained your kind of spark joy.

• 41:12Tim Ferriss?

  Muscle?

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Muscle, yeah.

• 41:14Tim Ferriss?

  Slash lens, right. And at that point, if, what if you have objects that don't necessarily give you joy, but you've, but they gave another person joy? So you feel guilt. So you hold it, and you know it doesn't give you joy, but you still feel guilty because it gave your mother joy or your father joy. What, how would she suggest they talk to themselves? Or what should they say to themselves to fix that?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  それこそ本当にもの一つ一つと きちんと向き合っていただきたいです これは一般的な答えではなくて それこそ本当に実際にそのものを触った時に 自分がちゃんと喜ぶ感覚がするか 例えばそのものを持つことによって 自分のお母様の喜びというものを感じられて すごくあったかい気持ちになったり 幸せな気分になる 本当に自分の手元に置いておきたくなるっていう ポジティブな感情があるのであれば ぜひ取っておいてください で、逆にそのものを持っていて 自分はときめかないんだけれども 母はときめいていたよな どうしようかなみたいな感じの感覚って になっている自分に気づいたのであれば

• 42:23Speaker 02

  それはもう本当に今まで自分の母や 自分のお母さんをときめかせてくれてありがとうっていうふうな 感謝の気持ちを込めて あの、手放すっていう選択を取る これも本当に一つの皆さんの選択なんです

• 42:39Speaker 03

  So you need to face each and every item. So when you touch it, if it sparks joy, or when you hold it in your hand, do you feel the joy that your mother did?

• 42:50Tim Ferriss?

  That warm feeling.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  That warm feeling. Does it give you that warm, fuzzy feeling? And does that make you want to keep it with you? If all those feelings are positive, then I suggest you keep it. Then, like, let's say if it doesn't spark joy, but it did for your mother, what you need to do is say, "Thank you for sparking joy in my mother's life", and then say, "Thank you", and discard it.

• 43:09Tim Ferriss?

  It seems like the gratitude piece, the thanking, is a very important part of the release. Sort of, it provides a closure for a lot of this, which I find fascinating because, in a way... So there's a quote, I'm gonna get the attribution wrong. It's Neal something or other, N-E-A-L, but the quote is, and I'm probably gonna get this slightly wrong, "The suffering ends when the gratitude begins." So I feel like that could be applied to a lot of things, including the cleaning itself, or the, rather, the tidying. What are some of the most misunderstood parts of her method?

• 43:53Tim Ferriss?

  Like, when... I'm sure there are people out there, like, with my work or anyone else's work, who say, "Tim recommends this", and I'm like, "Wait a second, I don't actually recommend that at all", so what are some misunderstanding, common misunderstandings about her method?

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Because the method includes things like throwing away anything that doesn't spark joy, I'm often misunderstood as someone who just recommends discarding everything. That's not the case. So my message is, "Take really good care of the things that matter to you."

• 44:51Speaker 02

  本当に自分にとって、自分にとってその大切でないものに こう気を向けすぎたりとか、そのことによって、例えばギリだったりとか、 そのなんか自分の本当の思いじゃないところで、本当に自分にとって大切なものを大切にしきれてないんじゃないか っていうふうに思うことが、私は片付けの現場でたくさん思ったことがあるので、本当にその部分に関しては皆さんにご理解いただけるといいなって思っているんです。

• 45:19Speaker 03

  So for you, don't put too much energy into anything that doesn't spark joy. Really understand where you need to allocate your energy. So you need to allocate energy into what matters to you, what's most important to you.

• 45:31Tim Ferriss?

  So I'd like to switch gears a little bit and talk about her routines. So what are some of the routines, say, in the first 90 minutes of her day? Like, what does the first 90 minutes of her day look like? When does she wake up? What are the rituals that are important, if any? Just, just that first, like from waking up to lunch, what's important? And what, what does her routine look like?

• 45:56Speaker 02

  そうですね。私は朝起きた後はとにかくこう、私は1日中家に対しての意識をすごくすることがあるんですけど、 起きた時にすごくお家に対しておはようって、もちろん家族にも言うんですけれども、おはようっていうふうな気持ちを持ちながら起きて、 もうお家中の窓を開けて、換気をして気を通すっていうことをすごく大事にしています。 それからはあとは本当に日常的によくやっているのは朝のヨガですね。 朝のヨガをすることによって本当に自分の中の気が整う。 今日も1日のまずスタートする時の自分の元の状態に戻すっていう意味だとヨガをしています。 あとは本当に皆さんと同じように、子供がいるので子供の朝ご飯を用意したり、 ですとか自分の朝ご飯を用意して食べて

• 46:45Speaker 02

  あとはやっていることとしては、日本のお家というのは玄関の叩きというのがあるんですけれども、 玄関の叩きを拭くっていうことをしているんですね。 エイントランスフロアですね。 玄関の床を拭くということを習慣にしていて、しています。まず。

• 47:05Speaker 03

  After I wake up, I focus my thoughts on the house. So for example, I say good morning to my house. Of course, I tell my family members good morning as well. And then I open up all of the windows, circulate the air. And then I do morning yoga. So I feel very put together and re-centered when I do this. And of course, as you know, I have kids as well, so I prepare their breakfast, I prepare my breakfast and eat. And in Japan, there is a concept of really wiping the floor of your entrance. So I do that as well.

• 47:37Tim Ferriss?

  So she sweeps the entrance?

• 47:41Speaker 02

  ではなくて、拭くんです。 玄関の叩きを拭くことによって、日本ってあの玄関と外っていうのはすごく明確に分かれていて、 外と家、で、そこの玄関の叩きっていうのは外からもらってきた汚れとかみたいなものを落としてくれる場所としての役割があるので、 そこもきちんとそこをクリアにしていくことによって、すごくお家全体がクリアな気が流れるというふうに私も感じられるんです。

• 48:08Speaker 03

  So I wipe it. So in Japan, there's a clear division between the entrance and outside, between inside and outside. So the entrance is where you can kind of dust off anything that you've accumulated outside.

• 48:20Tim Ferriss?

  The lower step generally, right? I mean, for a lot of houses, right before they step up into the house, you put on slippers where you take off the shoes.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:28Tim Ferriss?

  And so I have a couple of specific questions. What type of yoga does she practice?

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Don't lie one. You want to do it.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  僕は本当に素人なので、そんな大したことはしているわけじゃなくて

• 48:44Tim Ferriss?

  No, that's totally fine. She just asked, wait a second, are there different types of yoga?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  ジャストヨガですね

• 48:48Tim Ferriss?

  I'm just a beginner. So, right, alright, so straightforward yoga. Does she have a routine that she follows or a video?

• 48:55Speaker 02

  日本で買ったヨガの基本的な本を買ったことがあるんですけれども、それに沿ってすごくベーシックなヨガをしています

• 49:05Tim Ferriss?

  はい。And how long does she do, when does she wake up? How long does she do yoga for?

• 49:11Speaker 02

  朝6時半くらいに起きて、時間としては本当に20分くらいのヨガをしています

• 49:19Speaker 03

  I do my yoga based on a book I bought in Japan. I usually wake up at 6:30 a.m. and I take about 20 minutes to do my yoga.

• 49:26Tim Ferriss?

  What are the most common breakfasts that she has and that she makes for her kids?

• 49:31Speaker 02

  そうですね。季節によって変えています。例えば夏ですと、野菜のコールドプレスジュースを家で作ることがすごく多いです。 で、冬になっていくと和食の朝食ですね。がすごく体に合ってるなっていうふうに思うので、ご飯とお味噌シールの朝食を作ることがあります。

• 49:52Speaker 03

  So it really depends on the season. In the summer, I love making cold pressed juice. In the winter, we eat a lot of Japanese breakfasts, so it's really good for you and it's healthy. It consists of rice and miso soup.

• 50:04Tim Ferriss?

  Is there anything besides the rice and miso?

• 50:06Speaker 02

  その日によって違ってきますね。普通に卵料理、卵焼きですね。日本の卵焼きがついてるケースもありますし、あとは前の晩に残ったおかずを食べることもありますし。 私はあまりこの本当に決まったものがあるというよりも、その時その時自分がその朝何を求めているのかっていうのをその日に感じて用意するっていうことをすごく意識しているので、常にいつも同じっていうものではないかもしれないですね。

• 50:34Speaker 03

  It really depends on the day. So for example, I'll have Japanese omelets or leftovers from the night before. I really don't have a set menu for my breakfast. I make what I feel would be fit and good that day.

• 50:48Tim Ferriss?

  When she gets home for the day, so at the end of the day. So we talked about the first ninety minutes. So I'd like to talk about maybe the last ninety minutes. Does she have any particular wind-down routines or pre-bed routines? Anything like that that are important to her?

• 51:03Speaker 03

  逆に一日が終わった、例えば最後の九十分って、どんなルーティンがありますか？

• 51:11Speaker 02

  ルーティンとしてやっているのは、私は寝る前というより、 お家から帰った後のルーティンが結構しっかりあっていて、 お家に帰った瞬間、とりあえずまずお家にただいまっていうんですね。 家族にただいまって言った後にも、お家に対してもただいまっていうふうに挨拶をして。 それから自分の持っているものというのを全て定位置に戻していくっていうのが習慣なんです。 具体的には自分のカバンの中身ですね。カバンの中身も全て定位置があるので、 カバンの中のものを一つ一つ定位置に戻していきながら、 今日も一日働いてくれてありがとうっていうふうに声をかけたり、 その気持ちを込めながら定位置に戻していくっていうのがとてもルーティンです。

• 51:53Speaker 03

  After I say hi to my family members, I say to my house, hi, I'm home. And then I return the items in my bag to where they belong. Every item has a place, so I return them to their places. And I, of course, communicate with them as well.

• 52:05Tim Ferriss?

  And thank them for their service. Just for people who want a little bit of cultural context too. When you come home to a Japanese home, you sayただいま. And then the people there would sayおかえり。 And then when you leave the house in the morning, you'd say something like行ってきます。 And then they would say行ってらっしゃい, which is like I'm going to come back. And then they would say, well, go and come back effectively. It sounds weird when you literally translate it, but that's part of Japanese culture with your family, or in my case with my host family. You would leave, say your bit, and then everybody would sort of have a chorus back. And when you get home, you sayただいま, then everyone would say welcome home effectively.

• 52:47Tim Ferriss?

  Besides her own books, what books has she gifted the most to other people as presents?

• 52:53Speaker 02

  "人生はニャンとかなる"っていう本があるんですけれども、 あの可愛い猫ですね。 猫の写真がたくさん載っていて、 その人生君みたいなものが、 とにかくその猫の表情と本当に自分を励ます言葉みたいなのがたくさんある、 そのメッセージブックというのが日本で流行っていたんですけれども、 それをプレゼントしてとても喜べました。

• 53:18Speaker 03

  Of course, it depends on the person. But for example, this is a recent story. But in Japan, there's a popular book called "人生はニャンとかなる". And just for people who don't know Japanese, "ニャン" is kind of like "喵". It has...

• 53:35Speaker 03

  This book has a lot of cute pictures of cats and then along with a lot of messages that are encouraging words.

• 53:42Tim Ferriss?

  "人生はニャンとかなる". Japanese love puns. They love puns. あー、それもやじきゃがみた。

• 53:55Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so if she could have a message, one message on a gigantic billboard, right, just like a short message, not a advertisement, but just a message that she would like to get to millions of people on a huge billboard, and sort of a metaphorical question, what would the billboard say?

• 54:16Speaker 02

  "Love your things you own"ですね。

• 54:20Tim Ferriss?

  "Love the things you own".

• 54:21Speaker 02

  "I love the things you own".

• 54:25Tim Ferriss?

  That's good. I like that. I'm writing that down. Can you think of a favorite failure? And I'll explain what I mean by that. This is because I think that a lot of people look at Maria-san, and it's very intimidating. They go, "Oh, gosh, she's perfect. She never makes mistakes." So what is a favorite failure? Which means maybe something that was...

• 54:49Tim Ferriss?

  Did not succeed or was a failure that ended up sowing the seeds for success later. Does that make sense?

• 54:56Speaker 02

  失敗談としては、私が学生の時代の、まだ片付けの研究をしていた時なんですけれども 片付けにはまりすぎて、家族の大切なものをバンバン捨ててしまったっていうことがあるんです

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Here's a failure story. So when I was still experimenting with organizing, when I was still a student, I went through a period when I discarded my family's things.

• 55:18Tim Ferriss?

  Some of the most important things, right?

• 55:20Speaker 03

  大事なこととか

• 55:21Speaker 02

  そうなんです。だからもちろん大げんかになりまして、本当に例えば母親の高いバッグだったりですとか 父親の、私から見ると全然着てなくて、着てなくて、着てなくて、埃をかぶっていたように見えたスーツだったりですとか 私としては、当時の私としては、私が捨ててあげたくらいな感じで捨てていたんですが 当時の自分に本当に瓶たをかましたいですね

• 55:52Speaker 03

  So of course, this turned into huge fights. For example, one time I threw away a very expensive bag that my mother owned, and another time I threw away my dad's suit that looked like it had dust accumulating on it. And at that time, my thought was, hey, I discarded it for you. I did it for you.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  瓶とかましたいまで言ってください

• 56:14Speaker 03

  And I really want to just almost hit myself, my younger self, for doing that.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  ですね。本当に片付け、後から本当にその経験を通して、本当に片付けにおいては本当にその人の価値観っていうのがすごく大事なので 本当にいかに他人から見てそれはガラクタだっていうふうに見えても その人の許可なしに勝手に捨てることは本当にタブーであるっていうことを本当に心から自分の経験で学びました

• 56:41Speaker 03

  So in terms of organizing, what's important is that person's specific values. So even if it looks differently from you, what's important is how they're feeling, what their values are.

• 56:52Tim Ferriss?

  So I have a question about the inputs, and I'll tell you what I mean by that. That it seems like loving the things you own is a balance of sorts, because you have things coming in that you buy, and then you have things going out that you discard, and then you have things that stay that you organize. So I'd love to hear how she...

• 57:17Tim Ferriss?

  Decides to buy something or not. Because, for instance, I think for many people, they buy something and in that moment it makes them very happy. But then six months later, it's not important anymore. It doesn't do anything. So how does she distinguish those two? Or just maybe she could walk us through her thought process when she's considering buying something or not?

• 57:39Speaker 02

  そうですね。お買い物の基準としてもすごくとても単純で、 私はあの、ときめくかどうかっていうところを大きな判断軸にしているんです。 ただ、このときめきっていうその感覚っていうのは、片付けをすることによって、 あとはその自分の残したものを大切にちゃんと扱っていくことによって、 そのときめきの感度って磨かれるというふうに考えています。

• 58:04Speaker 03

  It's very simple. So for me, it's just whether it sparks joy for me or not when I hold that item in my hands. And that spark joy feeling is a muscle, as I said before, that you really train by going through the tidying process.

• 58:18Tim Ferriss?

  Could she elaborate on how then she distinguishes from something that gets her very excited for a short time versus something that she realizes will spark joy for a longer period of time?

• 58:31Speaker 02

  そう、見分けているっていう意識は、そうですね。 見分けているっていう意識は、あの、自分としては特にあの意識はしていないんですが、 あのすごく自然にわかるようになってくるっていう答えですかね。 あの、自分の持ち物に対してすごく意識的にあの向き合うことによって、 今自分にとってどういうものが必要なのかっていうのが常に意識できるように、 そんなに意識するというか、本当に自然な状態になっていくんですよね。 なっていくので、あ、これは今の自分にとって本当に必要だとか、 これは本当に長きにわたって自分にとって必要だっていうこの感覚は自分で判断できるようになってきます。 もちろん私は本当に短い間だけでもときめくものっていうものをとても素敵だっていうふうに思っているので、

• 59:16Speaker 02

  それはそれでもちろん自分のときめきの体験になりますし、 短いからダメっていうわけではないです。

• 59:23Speaker 03

  So I don't necessarily always consciously think about that. So it's something that you just realize naturally. So you can notice what's necessary to know. Consciously train that muscle and then you're able to know what you need now at the moment and what you need long term. So you become better able to judge that. Of course, I think it's lovely to have short term spark joy items as well. It's not about, you know, long term or short term.

• 59:50Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. It's not exclusively one or the other. What is a recent, doesn't have to be recent, but a purchase that comes to mind for her of less than a hundred dollars that brings her a lot of joy?

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  最近買ったもので言うと、最近はもうなんか自分のものっていうよりも娘のものを買うのにとても時めいていて、 あの娘の靴ですね。 あのすごく一目惚れした手作りの、あの手作りっていうんですかね。 ハンドクラフト風のなんですけれども、靴を発見してすごく時めいてしまいました。

• 1:00:25Speaker 03

  So this wasn't a purchase for me, but for my daughter. I love buying things that spark joy for me for my daughter. I fell in love with this pair of shoes that were handmade shoes.

• 1:00:36Tim Ferriss?

  What about for herself? It doesn't have to be recent. It could be anything that she owns. Maybe something non-obvious, right? That brings her a lot of joy. I'll give her an example, just to give her some time to think. So I have something, if someone were to ask me like, what is something strange that you have? That gives you a lot of joy? So I have yabusame, yabusamne kura, yabusamne?

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:04Tim Ferriss?

  So I have saddles, yabusame saddle. And that's very strange, right? That's not something that most people have in San Francisco. But I have an antique yabusame saddle and it makes me so happy every time I see it. Right? So that'd be an example of something that's not like, because I could say, oh, I have a photograph of my family. But that's true for a lot of people, right? So I'm trying to identify if there's something, uh, maybe a little less.

• 1:01:31Tim Ferriss?

  Usual or obvious that that really brings her a lot of joy that she has.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  そうですね。それで言うと全く同じような職業になってしまうんですけれども、 お抹茶用の碗というのが一目惚れして買ったんですけれども、すごく色が綺麗なんです。 パープルの紫色のカラーなんですけれども、 シミズヤキのお抹茶用の専用の碗で、それにしてもう一目惚れして買ってしまいました。

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  That reminds me, I have a tea ceremony bowl that really sparks joy for me. The color is beautiful, it's like a purple, and it's a shimiizuyaki style of bowl.

• 1:02:08Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds beautiful. When you hear the word "successful," what does that mean to you?

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  私には今目指している夢があって、それはオーガナイズザワールドっていう夢なんです。 まだ私が先手にして仕切れていない成功の目標なんですけれども、 私はこの片付けのメソッドだったり、その片付けの価値というのを本当に心の底から信じていて、 この片付けによってたくさんの人が幸せになることができるというふうに思っているので、 本当にその世界の十の方が自分の片付けを終わらせて、自分にとって本当にときめくものを大切にしていける、 ときめく価値観を大切にしていける世界を作りたいっていうふうに考えています。 それができたら成功だなっていうふうに言えるというふうに思います。

• 1:02:54Speaker 03

  I have a goal. My dream is to organize the world. So regarding this method of organizing, or through this method, I want lots of people to live lives that spark joy. I want more people to have completed tidying and more people to live lives of joy as a result. That's success to me.

• 1:03:12Tim Ferriss?

  So aside from that, if she had to choose one more thing, to be on her, now this might be culturally specific, but to be on her gravestone, what would she want to have written on her gravestone, aside from that?

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  それで言うと本当に自分が亡くなった時に私の祖母みたいになりたいなっていうふうに思っているんです。 どういうことかっていうと、あの

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  私の祖母というのは本当に自分が持っているものやお家をすごく大切にしている人だったんですね。 で、本当に自分の持っているものや見えないところまですごく美しくするっていう価値観をすごく大事にしていて、 私も本当にそんな風に、大きなことじゃないんです。本当に例えば自分が持っている洋服をすごく丁寧に畳むとか、常に引き出しの中も綺麗に整えておくっていう風に、 小さなことをすごく大切にできていけたらなっていう風に思うし、周りの方からそういう風に思われたいっていうのはちょっと不思議な話だなって自分では思うんですけれども、そういう風に生きていきたいなって思います。

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  When I pass away, I want to be like my grandmother. So my grandmother really took good care of her belongings and her house. She made even places that you couldn't see very beautiful. So, for example, I'd like to be remembered as the person who folded her neat clothes really neatly and put them away neatly. And I'd like to continue living this way.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  ね、サクセスっていう、成功っていう意味はすごく小さいことかもしれないんですけど、そういうすごく小さいことを積み重ねていって、あの人生を生きていきたいなっていう風に思っているんです。

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  So the example I gave might sound really small, but it's really important to build up those small things.

• 1:04:58Tim Ferriss?

  I think the small things are the big things.

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Tim Ferriss?

  Is there anything she wanted to just ask the millions of people listening

• 1:05:11Tim Ferriss?

  to consider one thing, or do one thing, or ask themselves one thing? What might that be?

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  それはもう自分が持っているものに対して常にこう、それを持っていて、時々かっていうことを常に問い続けてください。

• 1:05:25Speaker 03

  So please think about whether your belongings spark joy. Keep thinking about whether things spark joy for you.

• 1:05:30Tim Ferriss?

  I suppose this is as good as place to any, I think, to end it and wrap up. I think this is a question and a framework that I want to apply to a lot. I have a sign over my hallway that says Simplify. It's a wooden sign that I bought from a restaurant, more of a diner, in a place called Truckee in Northern California. And I think I've probably given away 70% of my things in the last few years. But nonetheless, there's always, or there seems to be for me at least, an influx, which is why I was asking about the purchases as well. So this is advice that I need to heed. Where can people find Maria Sang online? And June, you feel free to answer this, but on social and elsewhere,

• 1:06:15Tim Ferriss?

  where's the best place to say hello? Whether in English and Japanese, if they're different, because I'm sure there are going to be Japanese speakers listening to this as well. Could you let them know where they can learn more?

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  Sure, we're very active on social media. Please follow us at Marie Kondo, both on Instagram and Facebook. We also have our official website, www.konmari.com. That's K-O-M-A-R-I dot com. We also have newsletters that you can subscribe to, so please feel free to sign up through our website.

• 1:06:47Tim Ferriss?

  And I have one, maybe two last questions. So this is a common question that came up, which was, what are the most common novice mistakes that in bring chaos back into people's lives? And so if somebody reads the book, they follow the instructions, or they think they're following the instructions, what are the most common mistakes that they make that sort of bring the chaos back in?

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  ...

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  The most common mistake is when people don't do the KonMari method according to the order that I have suggested, or sometimes they don't do a category all at once. Some people just want to do things in whatever order they want and like to test out the Spark Joy concept in whatever order they want. Please don't do that. It's important to really organize by category.

• 1:08:12Tim Ferriss?

  And could you remind everybody of the order again? You have clothing.

• 1:08:17Speaker 03

  Clothing, bags, documents, miscellaneous items, sentimental items.

• 1:08:24Tim Ferriss?

  You heard it, folks. Marching orders from the chief and Maria-san,どうもありがとうございます.

• 1:08:30Speaker 03

  Hi,どうもありがとうございました. Thank you.

• 1:08:32Tim Ferriss?

  And Jun, Jun-san, thank you so much.

• 1:08:34Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having us.

• 1:08:36Tim Ferriss?

  And to everybody listening, you can find links to everything that we are discussing, the books, to Maria-san's website, and much, much more in the show notes, as always, at tim.blog/podcast. You can also find show notes to every other episode. And take a look there, tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, thank you for listening.

• 1:09:01Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends,

• 1:09:42Tim Ferriss?

  for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by MeUndies, which I'm wearing right now. I've spent the last year or so wearing underwear from these guys nearly 24/7, except when I'm having fancy time, and they are the most comfortable and colorful underwear I have ever owned. If you can imagine really awesome graffiti that you've seen in cities like LA or elsewhere, then turn into a print and put onto underwear, you get the idea.

• 1:10:24Tim Ferriss?

  There's also some weird stuff, like Halloween-themed camo, which I have for myself. MeUndies, designed in LA and made from sustainably sourced micro modal. Why is this important? It's three times softer than cotton, and you feel that difference on your loins. Ladies and gentlemen, they feel great. And if you don't love your first pair of MeUndies, they'll hook you up with a new pair or a refund. Uh, what kind of person sends in used underwear back to someone? I don't know. That makes you a strange person. Maybe you should sell them in Japan or something. But if you love the product, and they make great gifts also, and for those people wondering, Igo boxer briefs. If you love it, they have a subscription offer where you can save up to 33% after your first pair.

• 1:11:05Tim Ferriss?

  So check it out, meundies.com/tim. You can see some of my favorite underwear. And also plenty for the ladies. That's meundies.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. I've used 99designs for years for all sorts of graphic design needs. Whether you need a logo, website, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make great designs accessible to everyone and to make the process of getting designs much, much easier. So when I first started out, for instance, testing prototype covers and getting prototype covers for the 4-Hour Body, I went the contest drop. That is one option. This is a great solution if you're looking for fast, affordable design work and the ability to choose from dozens of options, risk-free. Let's say you need something late-night, quick turnaround.

• 1:11:50Tim Ferriss?

  Well, people in other time zones, other countries can also help you solve that problem. Since then, I've worked with 99designs on a separate path or a different option, and that is the one-to-one project service. So, in a number of cases, and I'll give you one example. When I wanted to create The cover for my audiobook, The Tao of Seneca. This was a very important project to me. I decided to use their one-to-one project service. And with this service, you can invite a specific designer to your project, agree on a price, and then work together until you're satisfied. And they allow you to iterate and provide feedback and all of this stuff. And I haven't shared it yet, but we also got some incredibly good, really some of the best illustrations I've ever seen from using this one-to-one project service

• 1:12:35Tim Ferriss?

  with a handful of different designers and illustrators. It blew my mind. 99designs makes this all very easy and efficient. So you can check out the Tao of Seneca design and other work that I, and your fellow listeners for that matter, have done on 99designs at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. Again, that's 99designs.com/tim.