#196: Meet the Machine, Dave Camarillo

Dave Camarillo (@DaveCamarillo https://twitter.com/DaveCamarillo) was my long-time Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) coach (see him kicking my ass repeatedly here http://fourhourworkweek.com/2012/01/08/tim-ferriss-getting-his-ass-kicked-how-to-survive-a-physical-attack-video-series/). Put simply, he is a machine. On the Mat http://onthemat.com/ once said: "It's funny that everybody in Judo is scared of David's ne waza http://www.judo-ch.jp/english/dictionary/terms/newaza/ and everybody in Jiu-Jitsu is scared of his stand up. (We) guess people, in general, are just scared of him." Dave is a very technical coach and an elite-level Jiu-Jitsu competitor. He dominated the lightweight and open weight classes at the 1998 Rickson Gracie American Jiu-Jitsu Association tournament; the legendary Rickson Gracie himself bestowed the honor of Most Technical American Jiu-Jitsu Fighter upon him. He has worked not only with people on the ground game, but many recognizable MMA (mixed martial arts) figures as a coach and as a corner man. We'll delve into: Tactical training Military training Hockey fights Defending yourself armed only with a flashlight How Dave's mom is the best sniping shot in the entire family And much, much more. Enjoy! Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Audible http://audible.com/tim. I have used Audible http://audible.com/tim for years, and I love audiobooks. I have two to recommend: The Graveyard Book http://www.audible.com/pd/Teens/The-Graveyard-Book-Full-Cast-Production-Audiobook/B00LXHQO22/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 by Neil Gaiman Vagabonding http://www.audible.com/pd/Travel-Adventure/Vagabonding-Audiobook/B00GCHWZHG/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 by Rolf Potts All you need to do to get your free 30-day Audible trial is go to Audible.com/Tim http://audible.com/tim. Choose one of the above books, or choose any of the endless options they offer. That could be a book, a newspaper, a magazine, or even a class. It' s that easy. Go to Audible.com/Tim http://audible.com/tim and get started today. Enjoy. This podcast is also brought to you by Vimeo Business https://vimeo.com/tim10. Vimeo Business has all of the prior benefits of Vimeo Pro, including VIP support. Whether you make videos for a living, run your own company, or simply want to amp up your video marketing, Vimeo Business is here to help. It has more than 280 million creators and viewers worldwide and makes it easier to share your videos with a global audience and connect with professional video makers to bring your stories to life. Vimeo Business https://vimeo.com/tim10 allows you to upload up to five terabytes and store your videos in one secure place, add up to 10 team members to your account for easy collaboration, and gather feedback with seamless review tools. You can even add clickable calls to action and capture email addresses directly in the player, which can help you generate leads and drive conversion for whatever you're trying to optimize, such as a newsletter or a sales page. Check out vimeo.com/tim10 to save 10 percent on Vimeo Business https://vimeo.com/tim10.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Tim Ferriss?

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Audible, which I have used for years. I love audiobooks, and I have two to recommend right off the bat. Number one is perhaps my favorite audiobook of all time, and that is The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman, the only audiobook I've wanted to immediately listen to a second time as soon as I finished. It's amazing, you will thank me, The Graveyard Book. The second is Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge impact on my life and formed the basis for a lot of what became The 4-Hour Work Week. So, all you need to do to get your free 30-day trial is go to audible.com/tim, and you can choose one of those two books, or you can choose from more great options than you can

• 1:05Tim Ferriss?

  possibly imagine. So that could be a book, that could be a magazine, that could be a newspaper, it could be a class, it's that easy. Go to audible.com/tim, that's audible.com/tim, and grab a book. Enjoy.

• 1:21Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Vimeo, specifically a new offering called Vimeo Business. I've done a lot of collaboration with these guys. Vimeo Business has all of the prior benefits of Vimeo Pro, including VIP support. Whether you make videos for a living, run your own company, like yours truly, or simply want to amp up your video marketing, video business is here to help. They have more than 280 million creators and viewers worldwide, and Vimeo Business makes it easier to share your videos with a global audience and connect with professional video makers to bring your stories to life. So if you need assistance, it's there. You can also upload up to 5 terabytes and store your videos in one secure place. You could add up to 10 team members to your account

• 2:02Tim Ferriss?

  for easy collaboration and gather feedback with seamless review tools. You can add clickable calls to action and, perhaps most interesting to me, Capture email addresses directly in the player. This can help you generate leads and drive conversion for whatever you're trying to optimize, say for a newsletter, or in fact, a sales page of some type. Video business helps you optimize your videos by tracking viewer engagement and drop-off, so you can then modify your approach or creative moving forward and improve it. And it connects to Google Analytics for even more insights. So check it out. Go to vimeo.com/tim10 to save 10% on Vimeo Business. That's vimeo.com/tim10.

• 2:47Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. Minasama. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers. What the hell does that mean? That means that I talk to people who are really good at what they do and try to tease out the routines, habits, philosophies, belief systems, et cetera, that you can apply to your own life and test yourself. This episode, we do not have an entertainer. We do not have... Well, we do have an athlete. I was gonna say we don't have an athlete, but we have a hell of an athlete who's now turned into one hell of a coach. Dave Camarillo. C-A-M-A-R-I-L-L-O. Dave Camarillo was, for a long time, my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu coach, and he is a machine.

• 3:26Tim Ferriss?

  In fact, there was a phrase, "Dave against the machine," that was used for a while. And onthemat.com once said about him, for instance, "It's funny that everybody in Judo is scared of David's newaza." That's his ground game, and everyone in Jiu-Jitsu is scared of his stand-up. We guess people in general are just scared of him. And he is a very technical coach, was a very technical fighter, and there are many people who took note of this. He dominated the lightweight and openweight classes, for instance, at the 1998 Hickson-Gracie American Jiu-Jitsu Association Tournament. And the legendary Hickson-Gracie himself bestowed the honor of Most Technical American Jiu-Jitsu Fighter upon David. He is an elite-level Judo competitor.

• 4:10Tim Ferriss?

  He is an elite-level Jiu-Jitsu competitor and has worked with not only people in the ground game, but many recognizable MMA

• 4:20Tim Ferriss?

  Figures as a coach and as a corner man, and we will talk about both of those. We'll delve into his background, we'll delve into his teaching and learning style. And I think he is really unparalleled in many respects as an instructor. And we also have a fair amount of ball busting and sharing of old stories that many people, most people, perhaps all of you or none of you have heard. And you can find Dave, and I highly recommend you check him out at gorilla jujitsu.com. That's gorilla like sniping from the trees, not gorilla like silverback. And you can Google Dave Camarillo BJJ to find the site very easily.

• 5:02Tim Ferriss?

  You can find him on Instagram, on Twitter, at Dave Camarillo and on Facebook. I believe it's just Facebook.com forward slash Dave dot Camarillo. But this is a fun one. We get into tactical training, military training, everything from fights in ice hockey and how to think about those to using a flashlight in a hallway to how his mom is the best sniping shot in the entire family. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with my old friend, Dave Camarillo.

• 5:34Tim Ferriss?

  Dave, welcome to the show.

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Thanks, man.

• 5:37Tim Ferriss?

  That was a dramatic inhale.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  I'm just tripping out at your, your place.

• 5:42Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  I feel like a little kid, like, what's that? What's that? Where was that come from?

• 5:45Tim Ferriss?

  Lot of walnut. There is a lot of foliage on the wall.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  It's a museum.

• 5:49Tim Ferriss?

  We do have a deficiency of wine, but it's a little early for that. And we have.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  No.

• 5:57Tim Ferriss?

  We have quite the history and the history of wine, but we've known each other for probably 12 years. It's gotta be. It would have to be.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  The, the earliest memory is us running away from mass hysteria at an MMA show.

• 6:13Tim Ferriss?

  God, the maragga.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Where there was a, whatever it was. Like a stabbing and then SWAT police and me going, like, trying to protect your booth that you had or whatever it was.

• 6:22Tim Ferriss?

  It was complete, it was complete chaos. I remember this. This was at Casino. God knows where and somewhere in California.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  I don't remember, yeah.

• 6:32Tim Ferriss?

  But I recall driving there in my mom's shitty hand me down minivan, which I needed. So thanks, mom. But it was, it was not impressing the ladies or anybody else. And I

• 6:44Speaker 03

  We were not impressed.

• 6:45Tim Ferriss?

  Dave was not impressed. Uh, no romance ensued. So I parked that outside and I had this, I remember this booth. It was again, basically against the wall and there was a fighter there who was a member of a biker gang. And all of his homies sat in one of the back rows, I guess. No, they sat in the one of the front rows. And then some other drunk idiot got upset and threw like a double gulp or something towards the ring, hit one of these bikers in the back of the head. And the guy was like, oh yeah, turned around, pulled out a knife and stabbed this guy in the chest. And then all hell broke loose. I remember this.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  That was the craziest MMA event. I've not been to a lot and that's, that was nuts.

• 7:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it was, it was complete pandemonium. And I remember crawling up and basically rock climbing, like bouldering up the side of the wall to get off of the floor because people were just trampling.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:40Tim Ferriss?

  The table. And then you came by and saved my ass and grabbed me and pulled me back into, I guess, the, one of the warm up rooms or something. And at the end of that, I remember I went outside to go to my car a few hours later, after everything had cooled off and there was blood smeared on the side of my minivan. Like, okay.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  On your minivan?

• 7:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, on the side. Like somebody had been bludgeoned or shot or stabbed. There was blood.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Well, I'm sure people got trampled and all kinds of stuff.

• 8:04Tim Ferriss?

  Across the side of the van because there was an additional round two, round three fight outside.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  Oh, that's nice.

• 8:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's always nice. So, uh, yeah. So we know each other from that. Let's see some other color for those people who'd like some context. Uh, I have told a story many times that you're a part of, but I've never mentioned you by name. Don't worry. It's not too incriminating. When I mentioned the story of me outsourcing my dating and the booking of dates, this was in Willow Glen when we were living together and we had a lot of wine one night. And we were having a debate about what could be outsourced or not.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 8:41Tim Ferriss?

  And the bet was, I think, a case of wine from your mom, I think it was.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, she worked for Gallo.

• 8:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. So for those people who are wondering, the outsourcing your dating story that I've told a few times, Dave was the inspiration for that.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that pops up. Like, I got word from Gallo because they, you know, search for those key words and all that. And they told my mom and my mom told me and like, "Do you know a Tim Ferriss?" Yeah, he's pretty cool, dude. I know, you know? Anyway.

• 9:09Tim Ferriss?

  And at the time, you were living at my place and I'll give just another, another Dave story that comes to mind. When people are asking me about, I remember it was being asked at one point because I went to Iowa and got to watch the Olympic trials with Dan Gable, which was a dream come true. Hope to have him on the podcast at some point. And someone was debating someone else about headgear. Now, I'm not saying you should or should not wear headgear, but I remember one night at my house, you had an ear infection and you couldn't get the Q-tip into one ear. And I was like, "Man, I got a lot of problems. I don't need to add to that list."

• 9:54Speaker 03

  That'll screw up your modeling, too. You know what I mean? The modeling.

• 9:59Tim Ferriss?

  Your earring modeling career is out.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  I can't wear those, what you're wearing right now. I can't wear.

• 10:03Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, the earbuds.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Because I have it on the inside of the ear. Like, normally, it's really cool and you can see it from afar on the outside. But when you get it on the inside, it messes up the whole thing, only on one side, too.

• 10:16Tim Ferriss?

  That's my, that's my dog. That's my self-defense system. We'll be talking a lot about self-defense. The, so for those people who are wondering what this is referring to, it is what is known as, or referred to as cauliflower ear in Japanese, takko. And you can check that out using the Google machine. So, Dave, what are you keeping busy with these days?

• 10:42Speaker 03

  I travel a lot. I'm doing a lot of traveling. I think.

• 10:46Tim Ferriss?

  For what?

• 10:46Speaker 03

  What I'm trying to do is. What I've always tried to do is answer every question instead of just answer one question. And it's been good and bad in my life. And right now I'm using martial arts as a kind of a framework to problem solve in many different areas. And right now I'm working with my academies. We have a guerrilla jiu jitsu academies in Pleasanton and San Jose. So that's kind of the base of what I'm doing right now. And when I'm traveling, I'm traveling to train military, law enforcement and other affiliates and just people who are jiu jitsu enthusiasts, self-defense enthusiasts, MMA enthusiasts. And at the same time, I'm still cornering fighters and just getting them prepared for, you know, kind of battling, you know, and that's just kind of a,

• 11:30Speaker 03

  there's so many different contexts there, jiu jitsu, judo, wrestling, MMA, self-defense, and I have to like quickly transition and problem solve depending on who's in front of me and what they want.

• 11:42Tim Ferriss?

  So we're gonna, we're gonna jump into an example of problem solving that we chatted about a little bit earlier when we're eating omelets and drinking coffee. But MMA fighters, who are some MMA fighters people might recognize that you've cornered?

• 11:56Speaker 03

  I think the most famous would be Cain Velasquez, but anyone from that AK group in that time, Cain Velasquez, John Fitch, Josh Koscheck, Mike Swick, Daniel Cormier, all of which, who exceeded outside of MMA in other areas of fighting, like, you know, kickboxing, things like that, wrestling. That really added to my understanding of not just gi grappling, that's what I started with, judo and jiu jitsu. But understanding how to increase pain thresholds by being punched in the face, understanding the motivation for movement, which is being punched in the face in the context of fighting, fighting in self-defense, but also mainly for MMA competition.

• 12:41Tim Ferriss?

  So one of the things that has always impressed me about, for instance, your, your teaching. I haven't been cornered by you because I'm not qualified remotely and I need to keep the brain cells that I have, but. When I visited at the time, AKA where you were then and took your class, what stunned me was how the baseline for your students seemed to be higher than other places. And what I mean by that is I've been to many different schools and good performers, meaning good competitors, aren't necessarily automatically good teachers, although they might think that they are. And frequently, the teaching method is kind of a technique de jour, right? The instructor's like, "Well, what should I do today?" And they sort of roll a 20-sided die if they're touching a dragon's nerd,

• 13:26Tim Ferriss?

  which they probably aren't, but they come up with something and they teach. And there isn't really a cohesive framework or progression or a foundation that they build very well. And when I, when I went to the first class and then repeated that and came back, I noticed that everybody was kind of uniformly difficult to deal with. And that was because you'd, you'd used a logical progression to build a foundation that made them difficult to deal with, like attacking at angles and just a handful of kind of first principles that made them very formidable. You've also taught, and am I making this up? I might be, sometimes I do, but did you teach-

• 14:06Speaker 03

  If it's good, just keep going.

• 14:08Tim Ferriss?

  Did you teach chess at a period of time?

• 14:10Speaker 03

  I did.

• 14:11Tim Ferriss?

  You did?

• 14:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:12Tim Ferriss?

  Now, do your approaches or have your approaches to both of those been similar in any way? Or has one informed the other?

• 14:21Speaker 03

  Chess and fighting? I think the overall, like, developing a framework is where you start. Like, I need a framework to understand how to achieve a set goal. Okay, and then you just, you know, switch between different situations. What's the context? If it's MMA or jiu-jitsu, whatever it is. In chess, it was pretty simple. I'm like, how do I make this as simple as possible? When I'm teaching kids who've never done chess in their lives. What I do is, you know, I gotta get my pieces out, so I understand that. You know, and then I would talk to people, is that, is that a thing you want? You want to get your pieces out, right? You want to control the center? Okay, I call it the bridge, control the center. And then you want to start formulating an attack. Very simple.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Do those things, those three things, understand what each piece does and go. So like the technique is like understanding what each piece does. To me, that's just, that's the simple part. To me, technique is one of the most simple aspects of getting good. It's your framework, it's your understanding how to develop, how to desensitize, how to develop a strategy to implement what you know and channel it for green lights and avoid red lights. So like in fights, for example, MMA, green lights are very like quick. Meaning like you punch and it lands on the guy's head, you know? A red light is if I punch, he moves and he counters and punches me. And so we're constantly finding these green lights.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  But if I'm trying to find these green lights in a situation where somebody's really, really good and especially like jujitsu, because it's so convoluted, there's so many variables. And I don't have a strategy behind that. I don't have tactics, then I'm kind of reactionary. I'm just kind of like, when you do something, maybe I'll do it. And that's a skill in and of itself, is a very good skill to possess, to develop. But it can't be everything. Your initial is, what's the main principles to start controlling the mid-ground? Control that mid-ground, neutralize and control my opponent. You know, take them out of their game, provide these principles, execute these principles and neutralize. I think that's the key word is neutralize my opponent before they start gaining confidence

• 16:31Speaker 03

  and gaining ground on me.

• 16:32Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the differences in your, uh, let's just say how you teach a novice in jujitsu compared to perhaps other schools? What would make sure, what are some of the things that you focus on?

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:48Tim Ferriss?

  Or don't focus on in the beginning?

• 16:50Speaker 03

  So first, a lot of people talk about jujitsu and they talk about, I have this type of jujitsu game. And a lot of them, I think, need to start at a fundamental framework for a game. What does a game mean? A game is essentially how you play the game, like, and everyone may be slightly different. But you quickly identify, I would say, the most utilized positions for top and bottom. So it's like MMA on the ground, like you have a top and you have a bottom. And in jujitsu is very simple. You have the attacking positions for top are side control, mount and back. For bottom, those would be defending those advantageous positions.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  And then there's guard, which is where most of the positional struggle comes from. You know, it's, it's hard to attack from top, trying to open the guard in this case. And on bottom, you can defend attacks. So on the bottom, you're trying to attack. But the idea is to see now how many guard systems are there. There's three main ones, closed guard, open guard and half guard. So that's six positions multiplied by top and bottom. That's 12. So if I find go to moves out of 12 positions, I have a game. Because I'm set for no matter what happens, even if I get swept. Well, where are you getting swept to? What position are you ending up? It's one of those six. And then you immediately kind of just jumpstart your game by understanding I have two moves from that position.

• 18:12Speaker 03

  That's how a beginner should, should take it. They should. I mean, you talk about it all the time. Simplify. Keep it really simple, but get good at being simple.

• 18:21Tim Ferriss?

  So in the case of say, guard, what are some principles that you underscore? And I'm associating two with you and I want you to tell me if these are right or wrong.

• 18:33Tim Ferriss?

  But one would be walking your shoulders in and getting sort of flush with your hips to the extent possible. And the second is positioning your torso at an angle. I don't know why I associate that with, with early on training with you, but there were a handful of things like that, that's similar to the three things you mentioned for chess.

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:56Tim Ferriss?

  I found if I weren't rolling for say six to 12 months, but I just kept those things in mind, the rest would come back.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  Right. It's control grips. Stay busy with angle and destroy your opponent's posture. And if you're doing those things, they're constantly having to adjust to what you're doing. We have a saying like in self-defense, like you're either behind the curve or you're ahead of the curve. And in this case, when you do things like that and disrupt base and constantly grit fight and get good at that. And we're constantly attacking because angles are an attack. Then you're chasing your opponent down the alley. He's not chasing you. He's going to eventually stumble and you got him.

• 19:34Tim Ferriss?

  How has your, so for people who aren't familiar, I'll give a little bit of context and obviously they feel free to jump in anytime, but. Those who don't have martial arts background, you have judo, let's just say, and contrasted with jiu-jitsu. So judo, what you think of is primarily a standing game, although there is a ground game, but they get stood up very quickly. So a lot of throws, very dynamic. It's an Olympic sport. Then jiu-jitsu, you have a primary focus on the ground, and that could be, of course, positional advantage, but then you have submissions, so chokes or joint locks, and then there's point scoring systems and so on, much like

• 20:15Tim Ferriss?

  judo. Just so everyone's up to speed on vocab. Also, you mentioned with a gi. For those people who don't know that term, that means a uniform. You could think of it as not the Cobra Kai type of uniform from Karate Kid, because they didn't have- It was really cool though. Which are cool, but they don't have sleeves. See, it's sleeves. And you use the uniform. And that is, when we're talking about grip, that can apply to the use of the fabric itself, or without that, no gi practice, then grabbing the wrists or the head and using sort of clinching positions, similar to wrestling. The last piece for those nerds out there who want to know what gi is in Japanese, it's actually the same character as ki in kimono. So there you have it for the Japanophiles out there who want

• 21:00Tim Ferriss?

  to nerd out. How has, because Dave, you're well-known for coming from judo and competing at a high level, and then developing a very high-level jiu-jitsu game and combining those elements. So guys would be like, alright, I don't want to get triangled, so I'm going to stay standing, and then, uh-oh, flying arm bar later, something you became pretty well-known for. Then they would say, alright, I don't want to get flying arm bar, and I'm going to go to the ground, and then they get triangled. How has, are there elements of judo that you still apply in your jiu-jitsu or teach in your jiu-jitsu?

• 21:39Speaker 03

  The sense of urgency that you have in judo that does not exist on that level in jujitsu. It exists in MMA because you're getting hit in the head, but the idea is I need to move. I'm very obligated, very motivated to move because I don't have a lot of time, especially when you go on the ground. As you talked about, you know, judo has, you know, tachiwaza and neiwaza. Tachiwaza is the standing technique where we throw each other. Neiwaza is the groundwork. We're vying for a position. We're looking for osayokomi, which is the incapacitation of your opponent on the ground. And when I hit the ground, I grew up in a culture of I don't have a lot of time. I really got to get something going because if you don't progress your position,

• 22:24Speaker 03

  the referee will just halt the match using mate, restart the match. So you've lost your opportunity on the ground. And so rules dictate behavior. So you see a lot of judoka who don't focus on the ground because there's not a necessity to do that. Things are changing now, but Travis Stevens did an amazing job in the Olympics on the ground because he cross trains. And I think I was maybe one of the first person to start cross training. And the reason why I cross trained is it's something new. Like how many uchikomi can you do in judo? Uchikomi is repetition of half throws. We're doing this over and over in this. And when I talk about the difference between judo and jujitsu, like I've drilled, you know, a seonagi, for example, which is a judo throw or a ogoshi,

• 23:08Speaker 03

  which is a hip throw where you're controlling the hip and you're throwing your opponent on his back.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  I don't know, 100,000, 200,000 times.

• 23:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, because you can rack up a thousand of those in a workout.

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then five a day or five a week times two, sometimes twice a day. So that whole 10,000 hours idea.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  But how many, how many of those did I get in competition?

• 23:34Speaker 03

  Not even a fraction, it's like less than 1%, but the idea is my, my mind is ready to commit and commit at the right time and not at the wrong times, find those green lights. But the second you hit the ground, if you're going to take advantage of another opportunity, you need to educate yourself. And back then, I just don't think judo had a structure that jujitsu possesses on the ground. And so part of it was my ego saying, you know, you, you know, jujitsu guys are not doing anything I'm, I don't know. The other part was, well, maybe they are. And I have to figure this out and find out. And I remember the first time I went to Health Gracie's Jiu Jitsu Academy in Pleasant Hill, California, and he was submitting me with his hands behind my back, or his back, not

• 24:18Speaker 03

  my back, or hands behind his head, actually. And I was trying to pass his legs, which is his guard, and he's on bottom, I'm on top. And I have all of this angst and 19 years old, I was like a world level competitor and I was really, really fast and young and dumb, you know how it is. And I couldn't pass his legs.

• 24:37Tim Ferriss?

  I'm still dumb, I'm just not fast anymore.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  And we're not young anymore. But I couldn't pass his legs. And next you know, he's like doing sankaku jime, the, the triangle choke.

• 24:47Tim Ferriss?

  Choke.

• 24:48Speaker 03

  Position off his, off his back. And I'm like, tapping out and he's not using his arms. And I'm like, isn't failure awesome? Like, that was a point in my life where I was just like, man, it's failure over and over again. And I'm glad at that point that I had the ego to keep rebooting and driving forward and do the same stupid thing over and over again. It's like.

• 25:10Tim Ferriss?

  Because then, then you didn't, you knew it wasn't a fluke, right?

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Like, if I put my hand in fire, you're probably not going to put your hand back in fire. But I'm glad I kept putting my hand back in this fire and getting burnt and burnt and burnt. And it really elevated me to like, there's something here that I don't understand and I need to do for the rest of my life.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  And I've had that in many aspects of my life and every time I come to a new corner, it's the same, you know, I do this mistake like we did combat when I started getting into combatants. I remember the shock knife training. Have you ever done this? Do you remember this? I don't remember this. You might not have done it. But the shock knife, I've never used a shock knife. It has scarred me both physically and emotionally. So I'll never. You should explain what it is. Okay. So shock knife training, we're kind of jumping all over the place. Shock knife training is essentially adding the motivation of pain to a supposed like real life situation. So like a scenario. Simulated knife attack. A simulated role played knife situation. And we would have our hands and I would teach this in MACP, they're called MACP, Modern Army

• 26:15Speaker 03

  Combatants Program. I'm level four certified, which is the highest. But anyway, through that training, I put my hands on the wall. MACP is pretty good. Rap, stage name also. We're not there yet, bro. It's coming. Don't, don't worry guys. We're going to get to Dave's freestyle. My hands are on this wall and the instructor's like face forward and there's like six guys and we're all side by side, hands on the wall, like, like a, I don't know, police line or whatever. I don't know. And then he would throw the, this shock knife. And essentially what a shock knife is, you can grab it. It's got a blade part, a handle part, and it's got this really cool button on it. And when you press the button, and it's cranked all the way up, by the way, because there's a level, you can throttle, you know, this thing

• 26:56Speaker 03

  up. You press the button and you see the sparks on the blade. You hear it, which is probably worse than seeing it. And then feeling it, which is even worse than that. And essentially, it's not going to scar you physically so much as it is like mentally. Like I've had best friends that I hated because we're doing this drill. So they would throw the shock knife. Now by throw, you mean just touch you with it? No, no, they would throw it on the ground and we all had to fight for it.

• 27:25Tim Ferriss?

  And it's turned on.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  It's ready to go. You'd have to press the button and stab people.

• 27:30Tim Ferriss?

  Something. Wow. This is some sci fi Lord of the Rings.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  And we already, the first, before the drill starts, everyone gets shocked.

• 27:38Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  So they're like, hey, we mean business. So we're clawing, fighting, cursing to try to get this stupid. And I still have it. This shock knife and stab each other with it.

• 27:51Tim Ferriss?

  So it's, it's, it's basically like a taser in the shape of a knife. I mean, effectively, it's a sort of electric.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  But it doesn't, you know, it doesn't incapacitate you.

• 28:01Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Got it. Got it.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Which is worse because then you can be held down, which I was, and essentially shocked over and over again by John Fitch, who's my stupid partner. Hey, I got it. Let's partner you up. Cause normally you do it with just normal people.

• 28:15Tim Ferriss?

  You should explain who John is for folks.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  John Fitch is one of the best fighters at welterweight in history. So he was ranked number two for five years when I was training him.

• 28:26Tim Ferriss?

  Pretty good wrestler.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  GSP in UFC. He's now the current world, uh, uh, what's the, the event he fights in, I'm sorry. I don't know the exact, he just won a big world champion title.

• 28:38Tim Ferriss?

  And he was also, uh, was it wrestling captain at Purdue?

• 28:42Speaker 03

  At Purdue, captain at the American Kickboxing Academy for the mixed martial arts program, which is probably the best in the world, in the entire world. And he was a gorilla jujitsu black belt. Is there anything else we could like?

• 28:57Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, no.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Any outweighed me by 20 pounds.

• 28:58Tim Ferriss?

  And I've sparred with John. Uh, sweetheart of a guy. I mean, we've said.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Super nice guy.

• 29:04Tim Ferriss?

  But you put him in a, uh, shock knife drill.

• 29:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. You have a real task on your hands.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  You could be blood brothers.

• 29:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  And then ruined relationships. Like just throw a shock knife and train. And then, then the idea is like the second somebody got it. And it's kind of a double edged sword. He becomes the enemy and you have to collectively work to take that shock knife away from him. There was different, they would, you know, variations of the drill. And, uh, I have video of me, you know, using very colorful language, being held down sweating. And my partner on top is John Fitch, where he could do that just punching me.

• 29:43Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  But hey, let's give him a knife.

• 29:46Tim Ferriss?

  Now, let's talk about problem solving because I've always admired how methodically you can think through, for instance, as you mentioned earlier, the 12 conceivable, was it? Yeah, 12 conceivable positions, right? So if you have your go-to and then your backup, right? I'm just thinking about, say, half-guard is particularly

• 30:08Tim Ferriss?

  a weak position for me that comes to mind. We're having a go-to and a backup and just having those two. It's like, no, you're not going to accumulate 27. Work on getting really good at those two. And that saved my ass in situations where I was caught in a relative position of weakness because I had, I was able to act quickly also having those two defaults. So the point being, problem solving, you're good at it and thinking through the different permutations of positions. Talk about or share what you were explaining to me earlier. We only got partway through it. So, flashlight, hockey.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Go.

• 30:48Tim Ferriss?

  Go.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  So I tend to get random texts, I would say, problem-solving texts, and they could be jujitsu-related, judo-related from different students. My buddy who's a retired Marine sent me a text. He's like, "Do you have a curriculum fighting with a flashlight?" I'm like, "No, but give me five minutes." And I say that with confidence, essentially, because I've done so many different types of training with different people under different rule sets or no rules or whatever the situation, in different environments. And everything I say right now is just running down the stairs of variations and variables.

• 31:25Tim Ferriss?

  And just to underscore something that people may be wondering, you also are no stranger to weaponry. And you know how to use firearms, you know how to use these various tools and have a lot of experience. It's not like you're Uh, combative naive going into it, thinking about doing some type of gee choke as the only approach in some self-defense.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Right. So yeah, you're, you're somewhat creative, understanding that you're increasing your, your, your spectrum of, you know, toolsets. So I grew up with, with parents who hunt and I grew up killing my own meat and, and shooting and, and then when I started training military, I did a lot of, you know, firearms training with pistols and.

• 32:08Tim Ferriss?

  Who's the best shot in your family?

• 32:10Speaker 03

  And fours and stuff like that. But my mom is the, hopefully my dad doesn't listen to this, but my mom is the best shot in the family. She's a different kind of shot or shooter than my father. My father can do it under stress very quickly.

• 32:24Tim Ferriss?

  Like an instinctive shooter?

• 32:25Speaker 03

  Instinctive shooter. He, he shot a, uh, it was a, I think it was a deer running 50 yards in the head. And we, I mean, the bullet happened to hit the deer in the head, but like, like I said, like he, he can quickly bring that gun up and pull the trigger, you know, and get things going. Apply those, you know, incremental fundamental nuances quickly. Where my mom, if you give her a rest, she's like a sniper. Like rests, just hang out 400, 500 yard shots, no problem.

• 32:58Tim Ferriss?

  Which coincidentally is not that uncommon. There are historically a lot of uber successful female snipers.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  Every time we go shooting, you know, if I take a student or something, I can see the difference between men and women very, very quickly. And, and, you know, there's, it seems that there's so much more patient, willing to accept failure, go down the list.

• 33:23Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  So my mom has been an amazing, I would say, influence on, on, on accepting failure to a crazy type A personality that I've developed probably since the womb. But, uh.

• 33:36Tim Ferriss?

  So you, so you have this familiarity with weaponry, which I just wanted to make clear to folks that we're not dealing with someone who's speculating. Uh, did he give you any parameters on the flashlight?

• 33:46Speaker 03

  So I said, well, I want a little bit more of the story. Like what's the situation? Well, home invasion hallway, you're surprised. Um, cause I would, I would think if you're, if, if that's the case, then you maybe have a gun or something. But, um, in this case, okay. So I'm restricted to the flashlight. I'm like, okay. So. Put that aside for a second, and I remember recently putting together a fight camp for a hockey player, plays in the NHL, one of the top teams, right? And he came down for a four day fight camp, and I'm starting to get good at like, developing these fight camps that specifically cater to individuals that fight, but under different rules.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  It could be judo, it could be jujitsu, in this case, hockey, NHL. So I talked to this guy, I forgot his name, I think it's like Scott McIntyre, you know, excuse me if I'm wrong, but he's, you know, full on like, Canadian accent, and I was doing research, okay, so I'm talking to this guy, I'm like, you were a bruiser, you know, give me some feedback.

• 34:48Tim Ferriss?

  He was an enforcer?

• 34:49Speaker 03

  He was, he's an enforcer, and he's retired. My buddy gave me his number, so I'm like, I'm trying to do research, and I need to talk to somebody who's been in the field, been in the hockey field, been in fights, but why not talk to someone who's a bruiser, who's really good at it, right? And the guy, man, I want to put him, you should have him on the podcast, just listen, just, just do that, you would do this, you go, explain hockey fights, and then put the mic in front of him, and he will just go.

• 35:14Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds like a great episode. I've met, I've met one enforcer, and I have to say, if the rest of them are like him, they are terrifying.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's the same, it's the same. And, and like, he goes back and forth between, yeah, you could, you could get brain damage, but, but man, I like the way that things used to be, you know, and we would just fight, and it was just about, you know, the guy, especially when I had kids, he would just try to take food off my kid's plate and all that, and I'm just like, go, just keep going. So he finally got to the technique part, and it was just, I'm laughing, I'm already laughing, and I'm like, I'm having a great time, but I'm also learning, it's an education, because under those specific circumstances, the rules change, and there's technique, like, these guys know how to fight.

• 35:53Tim Ferriss?

  So how do you fight in a hockey match?

• 35:54Speaker 03

  Okay, so, since you have a jersey, which is very much like a gi, you know, we have that friction of grabbing. The best place to grab is inside the shoulder.

• 36:04Tim Ferriss?

  Inside the

• 36:05Speaker 03

  So

• 36:06Tim Ferriss?

  The right shoulder.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, so if he moved forward on you, he's immediate, there's a backstop with your grip. There's a backstop with your grip if he moves in.

• 36:13Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so if you grab, for instance, around the sort of where the peck meets the deltoid on the their right side, you're basically blocking their dominant arm.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  So if you're right-handed, you're gonna use your left.

• 36:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, got it.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  To control a few things, control his movement so you can move him up, down, left, right. You can off balance in like the kuzushi we talked about.

• 36:32Tim Ferriss?

  So kuzushi, just so people understand, because we mentioned the uchikomi, but not kuzushi. So kuzushi is breaking of the balance in judo where you initiate the breaking of the balance of your opponent. And then, what is it? Is it kake? No. Kake is when you, I think kake is when you place your body then in the throwing position and then nagi is when you're throwing. So yeah, kuzushi is throwing off balance.

• 36:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  So you're able to able to control movement, but you're also able to defend against his right hand. So if I'm using my left hand, I'm defending against your right hand. Hopefully you're right-handed, but they'll make adjustments, right? But when the gloves go down, you have to know, I would assume you would have to know that player played against that team before. You can nerd out on this and go, I think he's a right-handed player. But then you see his stance, then you're like making these quick adjustments. You get your grip and you're also kind of shielding yourself with that grip. So you'll raise your elbow as his right hand comes across to try to connect with your head. You can use your helmet also like a shield. So we're nerding out on all these little details. That's the right, left side, sorry. Right hand, which is I'm right-handed. I'm punching you in the face or in the body.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  I'm clearing your grip because you're trying to do the same thing to me essentially. And I'm parrying and blocking and trying to make you go down before I go down. And he'll explain all this, this guy, McIntyre guy, he'll explain all this and then he goes, but really you just gotta be tougher than the other guy and just keep punching him really violently until he goes down. Like he would go back and forth between here's the technique, but then in the end, just get out there and just beat the guy up. You know what I mean? Like it just became like, like detailed to totally like a bonfire of just recklessness.

• 38:17Tim Ferriss?

  Violence.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 38:19Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know, it's so funny about that. It makes you think about. At one point, when I first started doing Muay Thai, and I haven't trained in any of this stuff in ages. So I mean, a Pomeranian could kick my ass right now. But the, uh, it's true. The, when I first started training in Muay Thai, I hadn't done any Thai kickboxing that was legitimate up to that point. I mean, I'd done kind of like mall ninja kickboxing, which was like, you know, 1980s flashy shit. And I remember going in, I'm hyper analytical, and I'm taking a class with this incredible world champion Thai fighter. And we're talking, he's talking to me, or you're

• 39:01Tim Ferriss?

  trying to talk to me about teaching mid, sort of mid kicks, right? Like body kicks. I'm like, well, should it come up? And his English is not fantastic. And I'm like, well, should it come up at this angle? Come straight in? Come down? Like, do you want to hit the ribs? Do you want to go for right under the armpit?

• 39:16Speaker 03

  You're saying this?

• 39:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm asking all these questions. And he understands the question. He looks at me, he goes, "Don't matter. Just kick harder. Pang pang, hop hop, pang pang." And he does sound effects that he used to try to illustrate. And he's just like, "What are you talking about? Just fucking kick them really hard. That's all you have to do." It's like, "Oh, okay." He's like, "Yeah, it doesn't matter where you hit them. It'll hurt. Just kick them really hard." I was like, "Oh, okay."

• 39:38Speaker 03

  That's awesome. That's so, that's exactly how it was. It's like, in the end, you just gotta be tough.

• 39:43Tim Ferriss?

  So you're studying the, you're thinking back to the hockey parallels?

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:50Tim Ferriss?

  To the flashlight assignment?

• 39:53Speaker 03

  So if I develop a curriculum where I'm using elements of the hockey kind of fight, I would say, you know, range, like you can call it hockey pocket, like, because we call it the pocket in boxing. You're right there where he can hit you and you can hit him. Instead of fully clinch, like if it's a home invasion, I don't know who they're with, and you get surprised, you know what I mean? Like around the corner, whatever. That's the kind of situation that we're dealing with. And, and then you have a flashlight. So that's, that's the kind of like parameters I'm working with. The first thing I would do is, is get a grip to control the threat. You're controlling the person in front of you. And then utilize the flashlight. And remember, it's, it's going to sound violent for people, but you're in your home and you're

• 40:38Speaker 03

  protecting your family situation, kind of. And so I even started nerding out on the grip on the flashlight, like, so I know MMA has hammer fists.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  I mean, we can punch straight. A hammer fist is just like I have a hammer in my hand. So I'm bringing the blade of my wrist down on the body or the head. Not the back of the head, because I don't want to break my hand, but traditionally in what we call the triangle of the head.

• 41:04Tim Ferriss?

  So the triangle of the head is kind of like.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Like.

• 41:07Tim Ferriss?

  Third eye.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, all the way into the jawline to where you can essentially either blind them by by creating a fluid in the eye. Because, you know, I can poke you in the eye and the fight can be over. Really is.

• 41:21Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  You can't see me.

• 41:22Tim Ferriss?

  Happens all the time.

• 41:22Speaker 03

  Happens all the time.

• 41:24Tim Ferriss?

  And just for people who are having trouble visualizing hammer fist, imagine Andre the Giant in Princess Bride. How he punches, sort of smack.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Such a good movie.

• 41:33Tim Ferriss?

  Big guy on the top of the head, or if you prefer, Bloodsport, the redneck, his first fight. I'm dating myself here, but yeah, you make a fist and instead of hitting with the front of the fist, you're hitting with the bottom of the fist effectively.

• 41:46Speaker 03

  But if you haven't seen those movies, come on.

• 41:48Tim Ferriss?

  You have to, yeah, to be culturally relevant and respected, I think in the United States, you need to watch both of those, but continue.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  So I'm forced to face, you know, this threat. You know, usually we'd have tactics to kind of get offline. We do this in jujitsu. We do this in everything we do. So if I'm offline, I'm outside of your radar, meaning if you're facing forward and I'm, we'll just keep it easy, like I'm behind you. You're not punching me. But if you're coming up the stairway. Or turning the corner and it's a narrow.

• 42:17Tim Ferriss?

  Or if you're against the boards.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  I can't create angles or I'm against the board.

• 42:20Tim Ferriss?

  Now, you mentioned something earlier, the creating the T position or going to T.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Fighting to a T, like the letter T.

• 42:26Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, understood. So you're basically trying to get your shoulders.

• 42:31Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you want to be standing at the side of your opponent because you can hit them, but they can't hit you.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's good boxing. So I get an angle, punch you, and as you correct, I'm getting the angle. Because now we're both moving in the same direction. So I pop out on the other side. I can't do any of those. So I have to develop worst case scenario in the pocket, a savage situation where I have to quickly kind of escalate things. And so you grab the, yeah, you grab the flashlight, you blind them, you grab them.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  And you proceed to use the flashlight as a, as a tool, we'll say.

• 43:05Tim Ferriss?

  On their, their triangle of, of pain.

• 43:08Speaker 03

  Right. So the idea is you can develop these.

• 43:12Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have a favorite flashlight for such a situation?

• 43:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's a.

• 43:16Tim Ferriss?

  Surefire?

• 43:16Speaker 03

  There's a really good, yeah, it's like a 511. It's got the, you can, I carried it everywhere. It's in my backpack right now, but you can like break windows and stuff like, but you know, you know how they like market things like you can break windows? Like, well, I don't want to break windows. Like I would never break a window. But if I had to use it.

• 43:33Tim Ferriss?

  I guess maybe, maybe their legal team's like, no, you can't say, well, rip the eye orbit out of any assailant. So just say it'll break windows.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Well, that's the idea though. But if it's like me or you, like, I gotta use my surroundings. That's the idea behind self-defense is not just my empty hand capabilities, not just all these principles that we talk about, like getting angles and things like that. But it's like, I strip you of all that, then what do you got? Well, I got a pillow. I got, you know, I can use it as a distraction. I can do all kinds of things like that, but uh, we're surrounded by tools. You know, and that's one of the things that I've, I've learned over the years is use your surroundings like MacGyver, you know what I mean? But in a self-defense context, you know?

• 44:13Tim Ferriss?

  So a question for you then, uh, about, and then I want to talk a little bit about cornering fighters.

• 44:22Tim Ferriss?

  Self-defense, what are the biggest misconceptions about self-defense or unhelpful or dangerous things that are commonly taught for self-defense?

• 44:32Speaker 03

  I think.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Let's start with what's I think the most important for somebody who doesn't have a lot of, a lot of time to train. I think that's a better start. So I think understanding, I would say.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  A conceptual understanding of how do I avoid certain circumstances, certain situations? So for example, law enforcement will have on a board of different cities and then put tax on there. On different crimes, like violent crime that tend to accumulate in certain areas. This is just the way I explain it. Well, don't go to those areas. So avoid. These conflicts like it's it's very simple. Don't like you taught me one time. You know, if you don't want like eat chocolate, if you love chocolate, but you know it's bad for you, don't have it in your house.

• 45:20Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  You know what I'm saying? Like I learned that from you. I'm like, man, so I don't have any chocolate in my house.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  But avoid like avoid like literally like avoid.

• 45:31Tim Ferriss?

  Don't.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  Being caught off guard, for example, like.

• 45:33Tim Ferriss?

  Don't sit at the table right next to the entrance in the coffee shop with your $4,000 laptop.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But don't allow yourself to be distracted. Don't allow yourself to to look like a victim. So I teach people to like own their walk, the way you walk, the way you carry yourself. Because the bad guys will just say, right, they're very much like animal predators. They look for weakness. They don't want an entanglement. They don't want to struggle like a shark even. It's assessing fat content versus how much struggle will it be to end that life to to consume it? I don't want to injure myself. And so the idea like, I don't know if you see like really strong, confident looking people walking around, not looking at their cell phone, getting attacked.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm sure it can happen, but you're lowering the ratio to which that you you can become a victim. And I think that's the first part of avoidance. It's not what technique can I use right now?

• 46:31Tim Ferriss?

  It's not putting yourself in a situation where the likelihood of something bad happening.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  It's lowering the likelihood.

• 46:37Tim Ferriss?

  The same reason that I've stopped in my advancing years.

• 46:44Tim Ferriss?

  Staying out really late. It's just like past 1am. It's like the likelihood of something awesome happening is like one in 20. I mean, the likelihood of something.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  Freaks come out at night, bro. It does. It's true.

• 46:54Tim Ferriss?

  But also like otherwise, normal people turn into complete idiots or savages when they have had three too many drinks.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:04Tim Ferriss?

  The so so understood the situational awareness from a technical standpoint. If somebody is, let's just say someone's had a scary encounter. They almost got mugged or they did get mugged. They're like, you know what? I need to develop some repertoire. I live in a bad neighborhood. I can't move right now. I just need to have the ability to defend myself. Without maybe maybe without weapons. What would your advice to them be?

• 47:30Speaker 03

  You're walking out without weapons, but you potentially could face someone with a weapon. That's the thing, like how far, like the question arises, how far are you willing to go to actually defend yourself? You know what I mean? That's, that's the first question. So what's your threshold? What's your mental capacity to, you know, dig deep and make, make it happen? Make your family safe? Make yourself get out of that situation? Sometimes it's assessing the situation for what it is. Then there's another part, desensitizing yourself to many things. That's what jujitsu does. Getting grabbed, getting choked, getting punched. You know what I mean? If I get punched, we'll talk about that for a second. If I get punched and I, it rattles me.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Then I get punched again. It rattles me again. And then it just continues. It spirals. An MMA fighter gets punched and they either smile or you, or they move their head before you punch them. Or if you punch them, they're like, okay, cool. I'm going to fight. Cool. Because they've been there so many times. Like getting lost or say traveling, I use this analogy. If you travel and have never been to a certain city and you tell me all about the city, but I'm going to get lost.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  I've been there 10 times. The next time I go there, I'm like, okay, I know where I'm at no matter what. I'm barely paying attention to driving. It's just like, I got it. No problem. It's this sense of comfort that you develop under stress. So like immediately when something happens, you know, you know, something's going down. What's your mind doing? If it's freaking out, then it doesn't matter what technique I teach you. Because the, the will to execute is going to be stagnant.

• 49:06Tim Ferriss?

  So I, I, this makes me think of a conversation I had with a woman named Whitney Cummings on this podcast. And she's a fantastic stand-up comic. And I asked her, if you had to prep someone to go do an open mic in, I think I gave her four weeks. How would you train them? And she said, night one and every night thereafter, I'd have them get up on stage for 10 minutes. Because stage, being comfortable on stage is 80 or 90% of it and materials at most 10%. So you gotta get comfortable on stage. Does that mean that if you're training someone in jujitsu, for instance, or combatives, that you have them spar very quickly? How do you simulate that? If you do, just getting them comfortable with discomfort?

• 49:50Speaker 03

  Incrementally. And I look at the client, like I look at you and I'm like, what is this guy used to? So let's say he's like military, but has never sparred before. We can start kind of in the middle. We'll do drills, we'll do specific drills where we face each other and we punch each other, but you're blocking, but it's light punching and you, as a good coach, you control the intensity level so that there's no, it's not getting out of control. There's no emotions because during this training, and I've seen it all at different levels, but it gets emotional. Like you punched me and like, hey, that was too hard. What are you doing? I don't verbally do that. I come back at you.

• 50:23Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  And then it's like that cartoon where like, you know, one little knife and then a gun and it just keeps escalating until you see the little world and they're big. You know what I'm talking about?

• 50:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  It just spirals out of control and emotions and people forget that we're human beings, that we should be civilized and all that. And that goes out the window. See, a good coach has to control the intensity level to which these drills are experienced. But if I have somebody who's never done anything, it's incremental. And you, you work on their pace, but everyone has the, I would say, ability to push their envelopes, escalate, like move, I would say upwards from where they're at. It's just like you said, you learn by doing, like Whitney Cummings. She said, get out there.

• 51:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 03

  Get on stage. Get out there and anticipate failure because you're going to fail right away.

• 51:10Tim Ferriss?

  So if you were, let's just say, we're not talking about military. We're talking about civilian, non-military, who maybe lives in a scary neighborhood. I mean, they're, we're in San Francisco right now. There's some gnarly neighborhoods that, that where people have been shot, where people get robbed. I mean, there's certainly more than a handful of spots. And because it costs 4,000 dollars a month to live in a broom closet here, maybe they're in one of those neighborhoods. And let's just say they are 35-year-old female.

• 51:47Tim Ferriss?

  Former high school athlete, so little athletics, non-college. Okay, so it was like a competitive, making this up, soccer player. And has maintained a decent semblance of shape, but non, is non-competitive. And she's talking to her friends, going online. She's like, okay, well, I don't think I'm going to do any esoteric Chinese Kung Fu or anything like that, but I've narrowed it down to Thai kickboxing, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Krav Maga, and boxing. What should I do?

• 52:24Speaker 03

  Okay, so I've seen at least all of those. So I've seen Krav Maga. I haven't trained it, but I've definitely studied it as a student, not as a student, but like observing it from, I'm like, because I'm interested in everything.

• 52:40Tim Ferriss?

  As a researcher.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  I think Krav Maga is excellent. The only thing is it, there's a spectrum for everything. So low intensity to high intensity, right? It's very high intensity. A self-defense encounter also has a spectrum. So I can, the number one goal of a self-defense encounter is to de-escalate the situation, to make things safe and calm. Now, you can throttle up and throttle down to make that happen. If you're only used to throttling up, you're cutting out 80% or 60, whatever. You're cutting out the lower end of that spectrum. So for example, I'll give you a perfect example. Muay Thai too. Muay Thai is like dangerous stuff, man.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  But I was in my house and I had a friend who got intoxicated. And he was so intoxicated, everyone handles their alcohol differently, but he started becoming obnoxious and touchy and pushy. Well, he pushed somebody I care very much about and I, okay, it's like red flag. And I started getting in between them and he was just thinking it was a joke. And I remember the moment to which I had to go hands on. I'm like, okay, I'm going hands on and I'm kicking this guy out of my house. I, he has to go. I'm not mad at him.

• 53:55Tim Ferriss?

  It just has to be resolved.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  He, this has to be resolved. Well, let's say I only did like Muay Thai. I like Muay Thai.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  Am I gonna clinch him and knee him and you know what I mean? High kick him in the head? I'm not saying that's what you would do, but like.

• 54:09Tim Ferriss?

  You're, you're, you're, you're, the palette with which you can paint is limited to things that are gonna inflict.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  And what you're used to doing, yeah, yeah. And so I use jujitsu in a standing position. He was standing and I'm not throwing him on the ground. I'm just gonna use jujitsu. Well, I wrapped his arms up because I noticed he was also, remember, this is my friend. And he's still my friend. I don't care. Like, just, that's the way.

• 54:33Tim Ferriss?

  Just no more tequila shots.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Trying to, yeah. So I wrapped up his arms because I noticed he had a knife on him.

• 54:41Tim Ferriss?

  Ooh.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  And I'm not saying that he's gonna use that knife, but few things going on, just my perspective. I decided to go hands on, which means I'm not turning back. Once I've decided I can't turn back because that invites him to continue the behavior, which I don't want. It's gotten out of hand. And I'm desensitized enough to be composed to not throttle up. And to see how the threat can spiral and get worse. So if my end goal is to de-escalate the situation, I don't want to give him an opportunity to escalate it any further.

• 55:21Tim Ferriss?

  Right, if you.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  And so if I.

• 55:24Tim Ferriss?

  If you give him some kind of like push kick, Muay Thai, and then he whips out.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Then he starts, you know, because I don't know what's going on in his head. Maybe now it's like survival. So he grabs a knife. He doesn't, maybe he doesn't, maybe he's out of his head. And I don't want to hurt my friend. So I wrapped his arms up and put him against my, my door. And he couldn't even move. So I, I neutralized his ability to escalate by getting a knife or whatever it is, or even hitting me. And I was able to look at him face to face while wrapping him up and say, hey, man, you need to calm down right now. And then that tone comes in to totally like tell him physically, he knows he's under control. Now it's verbal, hey, I'm giving you an out right now. You need to calm down right now or it's gonna get much worse.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Like, I'm not yelling and screaming, but I'm very firm and like, this is your only way out essentially. Is through my door so that we don't have to do this anymore. I got him out.

• 56:22Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  So he slowly calmed down and realized and literally you could see a switch go off like, okay, wow, I first off, he didn't realize that it had gotten out of control.

• 56:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 56:31Speaker 03

  And then he realized how much control I had of him, which I think helps him come to that first conclusion. And that's how, that's how you deescalate a situation where not all self-defense conversations are life threatening. I mean, they, they, they could spiral like we talked about, but he's my buddy. Like, I don't want to hurt my buddy. It's just one of those things. So when your system that you choose, in my opinion, and this is what we've nerded out on and focus on is understanding and giving you the tools that you need to be composed and also throttle it up if you need to and throttle it down. That starts with mental composure, but we have the technique to do that as well and

• 57:11Speaker 03

  control the elements that would give you the opportunity to kind of spiral things out of control. And that's what law enforcement, same thing with law enforcement.

• 57:20Tim Ferriss?

  That's what they Even more so with law enforcement.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  You know, and that's why, oh, it's very tricky with law enforcement because they're dealing with life and death situations. I don't think I was, you know what I mean? But I'm prepared for it. But I don't think I was.

• 57:34Tim Ferriss?

  Would you therefore recommend jujitsu as step one for the 35 year old former soccer player, female, living in the Tenderloin in San Francisco?

• 57:46Speaker 03

  100%. This has no relation to me, you know, that being my business and like

• 57:51Tim Ferriss?

  Never ask a barber if you need a haircut. Lesson number one.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Like that surgeon, I asked him, do I need surgery? He's like, yes.

• 57:58Tim Ferriss?

  You're like, oh, wait, that's

• 57:59Speaker 03

  Wait, you're a surgeon. I had a torn bicep and I'm glad I did not get the surgery, let's just say.

• 58:07Speaker 03

  Okay. So I had this conversation on my podcast, like, I'm like, what is the greatest martial art? What is it? And I've always reluctant to say jujitsu is the greatest martial art because I'm very big on, I need to get to a point where I can say that with extreme confidence. Because there's always this, like, I see a lot of people that You know, you have a jujitsu black belt who only did jujitsu. Say jujitsu is the greatest martial art in the world. I'm like, I agree with you. But why? Like, why do you think it is? You know, I've sampled so many different, I've been so uncomfortable training, shock knifed, on the bottom of like Kane Velazquez punching me in the face. Um, doing shooting drills and just-

• 58:48Tim Ferriss?

  Big, big, strong unit. For any, for those people that don't know who he is, you should look him up. Getting, uh, yeah, grounded and pounded by Kane.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  Probably one of the best heavyweights in the history of UFC. Um, you know, that, all the way to using very simple controlled techniques and movements to corral someone out of my house. You know, that's the spectrum that I deal with. But that's jujitsu. It, we offer it with our system. And I see like in a lot of other arts, it's not necessarily that capable. Without, without saying like, we're better than you, you know? I'm not saying that. I'm saying there's something for everybody, but if you're telling me 34-year-old school teacher who's never done anything in their lives, you have to check out jujitsu because a lot of the situations, especially women, that potentially could find themselves on the ground.

• 59:39Tim Ferriss?

  Right, because the motivations are often different, right? It's not someone trying to kill you, it's someone trying to rape you.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Right. Now, if you're 20 years old and, or 15 years old or whatever it is, and you just want to do MMA, and you want to fight professionally, well then do, go do MMA. That's great. But you better have good jujitsu anyway. You know what I mean? Like, that's such a component and it's, it's what I call a universal usage. It has universal usage. You can compete. You can nerd out on the self-defense aspect. You can apply it to MMA context. You can use it in self-defense. You know, guys can use it going to war. You know, you can do it forever. It's the one sparring, I would say, art that you can do forever. Like, hey, Tim, right now, I'm gonna ask you a question. You ready?

• 1:00:23Tim Ferriss?

  I'm ready.

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  Do you want to do randori? Like judo randori?

• 1:00:27Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Right now, hard 100%?

• 1:00:29Tim Ferriss?

  No, I do not.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  No. What's Randori?

• 1:00:32Tim Ferriss?

  Randori is free sparring. And yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna catch some hard corners no matter what.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  So just imagine, for those of the people don't understand, we have that gi on and we're grabbing each other and we're trying to lift each other off the ground with technique. Off balance, you lift you off the ground, apply our technique. And then, once you're off the ground, essentially, I have total control of you. So I will slam you on the ground as hard as I can. And the harder and the more on your back you land, the more pure it is and the more chances the match is over.

• 1:01:01Tim Ferriss?

  The more points you're gonna receive.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  And that's essentially the goal. Go.

• 1:01:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  When you're 40 years old, you don't want to do Randori. But we can still, me and you, get our gis on, or no gi, it doesn't matter, and actually grapple in jujitsu.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  And do it pretty much for the rest of our lives, like we talked about with a good partner. So the longevity aspect of it, it's outmatched in the sparring arts. You can spar. We can go back and forth and have resistance and have a set goal of you choking me, me choking you.

• 1:01:35Tim Ferriss?

  Couple of just random, they're not really random, they're related to this. But I'm so curious, because I don't know if I've actually asked you this. What is your go-to technique? This is called tokoyaza in Judo. It's kind of your specialty for throws. What was your tokoyaza?

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Tomonagi.

• 1:01:53Tim Ferriss?

  Tomoyanagi, so Tomoyanagi. It's a beautiful throw. So for those people who are wondering what the hell this is, it's kind of like the Captain Kirk throw. He did this in Star Trek once, where you pull the guy, you put your foot on his stomach and then kick him over the top. But there are a million and one variations to that. Just one recommendation for people, if you want to see a guy who uses this at a super high level. Hard name to spell. Kashi Wazaki. This guy named K-

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Kashi Wazaki.

• 1:02:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Kashi Wazaki was not only, exactly, not only a Tomoy Nage specialist, but a ground specialist.

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  He was one of the greatest of all time.

• 1:02:29Tim Ferriss?

  One of the greatest, and he would use Tomoy Nage to throw people into a mount, he would be in the mounted position. So he, he is one of the, he was one of the, I don't know if you knew this, he was one of the very first Japanese high level judo competitors cross training Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  He cross trained?

• 1:02:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  I did not know that.

• 1:02:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I picked up a Japanese magazine, maybe 10 years ago, and it was, it was Kashi Wazaki and some Brazilian guys he'd been training with for ages.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  So not during his competition?

• 1:03:02Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know.

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  Or during the early years?

• 1:03:04Tim Ferriss?

  It was, so all I saw was the, it was the headline in an article in this magazine that I used to love.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 1:03:12Tim Ferriss?

  Japan from 15 to 16 called Kaktogi Tsushin. Long story. Kaktogi is martial arts, basically. Kaktogi. Yeah, Kaktogi Tsushin. So I used to always buy that magazine. And then I'd, I'd skip all the professional wrestling bullshit and go straight to the MMA stuff, which at the time was called, I guess it was Soho Kaktogi, something like that. Back in like the Pancras days and all that, before UFC. And when Ken Shamrock was known as Wayne Shamrock in Japan, for some reason, I have no idea why. And he had long hair. This is way, way back in the day.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  I remember, man.

• 1:03:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, way back in the day.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:03:45Tim Ferriss?

  And so Kashi Wazaki, if K A S H I W A Z A K I. It's worth looking up, but so Tomoy Nage was your, your go to.

• 1:03:58Speaker 03

  Another guy, Flavio Canto.

• 1:04:00Tim Ferriss?

  Flavio Canto.

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  Canto.

• 1:04:01Tim Ferriss?

  Where's he from?

• 1:04:02Speaker 03

  Brazil.

• 1:04:03Tim Ferriss?

  And he spells last name?

• 1:04:04Speaker 03

  C A N T O.

• 1:04:06Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

  Flavio Canto, friend of mine, he's, he had good neewaz as well, and I think that's, I mean, it's, it's pretty simple. Like, I like the ground, I like the tachiwaza. What's your favorite throw? A throw that I can kind of do both.

• 1:04:19Tim Ferriss?

  That gets me into a great neewaza position if I don't get ippon.

• 1:04:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, okay, so Tomoy Nage, that's a great one. Kashi Wazaki did this amazing thing.

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  But it's not a universal throw.

• 1:04:29Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  It's not a good self-defense throw.

• 1:04:33Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:04:33Speaker 03

  And I, and I make that point because.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  A lot of people go down these like rabbit holes and they do things that have nothing, there's very little relation to

• 1:04:44Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  A universal sense. So I can do it in Judo, I can do it in Jiu Jitsu, I can do it in Nogi, so no uniform. I can do it in MMA, I can do it in self-defense.

• 1:04:52Tim Ferriss?

  What are your favorite? So my favorite standing techniques in Judo, I would have to say are foot sweeps. Because they're just so beautiful.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Tim Ferriss?

  When they're done properly. Do you have any favorite foot sweeps?

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, uh, Sasai. It's like

• 1:05:04Tim Ferriss?

  Sasai Tsuri Komiyashi?

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:05:06Tim Ferriss?

  So that's a long one. S A S A E. I encourage people to look this up. It's a beautiful throw. It's so beautiful. And wrestlers can do this also.

• 1:05:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:05:17Tim Ferriss?

  From an underhook position. You see that

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  It's universal.

• 1:05:19Tim Ferriss?

  Even at, exactly. At the high NCAA levels, you see people, I don't know what they call it in English in wrestling, but from, from underhooks, you'll see people do this. Beautiful throw.

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  So for people who, like a foot sweep is essentially taking somebody, sweeping their foot out like it's, like it says, but like you can have their feet go above their head, their head go down and them land on their back.

• 1:05:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Speaker 03

  It's, I think it's the quickest way to embarrass somebody.

• 1:05:44Tim Ferriss?

  And it's, it's also, it, it looks like a magic trick when it's done properly. Because you'll, you'll see these ex, I mean, people who are masters in this, they'll time it, they'll get the person and, and you see this type of practice a lot in Judo, they'll entrance the person almost into walking and shuffling the way they want them to walk and shuffle, and they'll time the steps with sort of unweighting of one foot. And in that millisecond, like that nanosecond, it's kind of like the instant that all of the feet of a horse are off the ground when they're racing, tiny little motion with the foot and this person just levitates. They go completely horizontal.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  Moves like that and, and understanding how you elevate yourself as a martial artist, like mixed martial arts, and just being, being young, being physically able and fast and athletic. I've realized like all of the movies we've seen that have martial arts and fighting people.

• 1:06:41Speaker 03

  They're more accurate now than in the beginning. I'm gonna try to make sense of this, but in the beginning of the MMA revolution.

• 1:06:48Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  Because the beginning of the MMA revolution was essentially seeing two people actually fight. Like, that hasn't been done before the revolution on a large scale. Horian Gracie made this thing called the UFC and then, you know, put these styles against each other, right? And then it started, people started realizing like, wow, so all that, we've been lied to.

• 1:07:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  And, and you can hear a lot of the, in the beginning, they're like, you can't do any of these other, those are flashy, you know, I'm not gonna mention systems, but like, that's not gonna work. The, the movies lied to us. And the reality, like, now that we've seen it progress and move on, you can do anything.

• 1:07:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Speaker 03

  You can make it work. And, and, and the foot sweep is one of those techniques that you're like, no, this is impossible to someone who doesn't understand it. You know, it's in movies alone, but I can do it. And I've done it on many times on untrained people who go, hey, Dave, like, you do martial arts, right? And I go, yeah. My, I used to do this on my cousins when I was younger, but anyway. And I would throw them all over the place. And they, they would just be like, they, their minds couldn't wrap around, you know, like you said, it's like magic. Like, how do you do, how do you get the timing down? How do you do this? Well, you do it over and over again. You can accomplish anything. Rocket science is not rocket science if, if you're a rocket scientist. You know what I mean? Like, if you've done it over and over and over again. But I've seen guys, you

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  know that Street Fighter II spin move where the guy lowers his level and then spins and kicks?

• 1:08:17Tim Ferriss?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 1:08:18Speaker 03

  I've seen guys do that in sparring and knock each other down and then go over and punch them in the head.

• 1:08:22Tim Ferriss?

  In MMA, in high level MMA?

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  In, in high level MMA.

• 1:08:25Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you, I mean, you see that in the early, early UFC, we're talking, I guess, what, 92, 93? No, it would have been after that. It would have been, yeah.

• 1:08:36Speaker 03

  92, I think is when it-

• 1:08:37Tim Ferriss?

  It was around that time.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Tim Ferriss?

  For a few years, if you got mounted, you just tapped.

• 1:08:45Speaker 03

  Over.

• 1:08:45Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no, it's over. Checkmate.

• 1:08:47Speaker 03

  Over.

• 1:08:47Tim Ferriss?

  I'm done. I mean, that doesn't exist anymore, right? I mean, that's, that's the, the idea. I mean, your, your manager would kill you. You know, if you were just like, you mounted me, I had to tap. That doesn't happen now. And then you have people doing, I'm blanking on his name.

• 1:09:02Tim Ferriss?

  Anthony Pettis, was it? No, I don't know if it was Pettis who did like the Matrix kick off the side of the octagon.

• 1:09:10Speaker 03

  Who was the first, it might've been Jose Aldo, I don't know.

• 1:09:13Tim Ferriss?

  And I think he has, was it Taekwondo back?

• 1:09:16Speaker 03

  Might've been Pettis, yeah.

• 1:09:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Pettis who did the Matrix.

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  You can do anything you want.

• 1:09:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:20Speaker 03

  You can run up the wall, jump off of it and punch someone in the head and knock them out. And it's happened.

• 1:09:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Speaker 03

  That's what's amazing about fighting, even if you're not a fan, like, what can the human body do? If you give them this set of rules and, and, and inspiration to be a champion and then go.

• 1:09:37Tim Ferriss?

  Incentive too, right? I mean, you see a direct correlation in any sport with the amount of money that comes in and the amount of talent that comes out because you have people now who have, since they were five years old in the United States, been training in jujitsu and then shortly thereafter MMA. You know, I remember I was talking to, we were, we were chatting about Jaco. Jaco Willink, former Navy SEAL commander who's been on this podcast. And he was showing me at one point a video of his son sparring in jujitsu. And Jaco himself is a black belt and trains MMA competitors in his spare time. And I said, oh, that's amazing. How old's your son? 12. How long has he been doing jujitsu? 12 years.

• 1:10:16Speaker 03

  And he's 12.

• 1:10:17Tim Ferriss?

  It's like, wow. Throw that fetus, throw that fetus on the mats. And so the, the level and the incentives are there, right? To fuel rapid evolution in this sport.

• 1:10:32Tim Ferriss?

  What has been, what is your job in a corner? When you're cornering a professional fighter in a fight?

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  It's to be simple. We don't, you know, he's, and generally you can have three corners, but like.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Generally, the fighter is gonna hear one guy. And it depends on the guy. Like, they are very accustomed to one. They have that channel. So even though there's three people, one guy generally will talk during the fight. That's during the fight. So they make that connection, that verbal connection. They, they

• 1:11:07Tim Ferriss?

  Does that tend to be the person who has spoken to them during sparring?

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  Yes, and there's other variables. Like, sometimes it's just their voice. Their voice is easy to pick up because you have all the noise and just Like Bob Cook. You know Bob Cook. Crazy Bob Cook.

• 1:11:20Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  He's one of my biggest mentors in the MMA field. Probably one of the best corners in the world. You can hear him no matter what. He's got a distinct voice where you're gonna hear it. If it's like a rougher voice, it kinda just, it's like white noise.

• 1:11:36Tim Ferriss?

  Just gets lost.

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  You know. So, that's one variable. The other variable is who, who, who are they comfortable with? Like, you know, you can build this camaraderie with somebody who's maybe not even there in, in training camp very often. But you have this trust. And you want them in your, in your corner, kinda thing.

• 1:11:56Tim Ferriss?

  What do you think contributes to that?

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  I think it could have been past training sessions. It could have been, they, they met on a They just connected naturally through their relationship. It could be their brother, you know, like Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, you know what I mean? Like, they had that kinda connection.

• 1:12:15Tim Ferriss?

  Side note, just to further encourage YouTube shenanigans. What is the best video that people could find of you sparring with your brother?

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  Uh, there's a video, I don't even remember the name of it, but it's Camarillo Brothers sparring Demo, something. I mean, you can find it. We were just way back, but

• 1:12:40Tim Ferriss?

  But your brother, just as some context.

• 1:12:44Tim Ferriss?

  Good martial artist.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's, well, you gotta understand like my background. I was forced into martial arts. Like I was pretty much programmed to be who I am today. Like my parents, I think were brilliant. In that they put us in martial arts and it became like brushing our teeth. Like you're not going to get out of brushing your teeth. You're not going to get out of going to school. Right. As a kid, you're not going to get out of doing judo.

• 1:13:07Tim Ferriss?

  Is your brother older or younger?

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  He's older. And so we grew up with that. Like we were each other's best training partners. Four years apart, which is totally unfair. Because the physical advantages are just too far away for me to match. Which is how mean the younger brother tends to be, which is how it is. But he's a phenomenal judoka, does jujitsu, black belt, like he does those foot sweeps, throws people. Just destroys people. He's a vigilante. Like he went after a fugitive that crashed in front of his academy. Did you hear about this? It was all over national news.

• 1:13:38Tim Ferriss?

  I saw, I saw a photo of it on your Instagram.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  It's absolutely.

• 1:13:42Tim Ferriss?

  But I didn't get the story.

• 1:13:42Speaker 03

  There's another photo where he's posing like he's a superhero in his gi, just joking, but it's like he just finishes. So he has an academy in Bakersfield, downtown Bakersfield. He just finishes class and he walks outside just to get a breath of fresh air, whatever it is. And boom, this car runs into, at the light, runs into this other car. The guy jumps out, who initiated the accident, runs, starts running down the street. The lady in the other car yells and screams, he's getting away. There's a helicopter there with a spotlight down going. So he's like in his head, he's like, okay, this is, I don't know.

• 1:14:18Tim Ferriss?

  This is a crime scene.

• 1:14:19Speaker 03

  Like this is a, I gotta go after this guy. So he assessed, like he even talked about like, I assessed like, does he have a weapon? And you know, cause that's dangerous when you, when you go hands on situations like that. Runs after the guy, turns the corner, throws him on the ground, wraps him up. Cops come in and take care of the rest. He's all over the news talking about like, I do jujitsu and judo because you never know when you're going to need it. You know what I mean? Like.

• 1:14:42Tim Ferriss?

  In his gi.

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  How ridiculous is that?

• 1:14:47Tim Ferriss?

  Now, I, not to point out the obvious, but to those would be vigilantes out there. This is not without its risks.

• 1:14:55Speaker 03

  Huge risk.

• 1:14:55Tim Ferriss?

  Now, just to provide a concrete example, so we mentioned Muay Thai. So the first gym.

• 1:15:03Tim Ferriss?

  Where I got my lecture on like, doesn't matter, just kick harder was Fairtex. And this was on Clementina at the time in San Francisco. Coincidentally, when I flew to San Francisco to have my first job interview after college, I couldn't avoid, I couldn't afford, excuse me, a hotel. So I paid for a fly-in camp at Fairtex, which was cheaper. And I slept upstairs, so above the gym, in a really bad neighborhood at the time, Clementina, which is in a nasty, nasty, it's basically between Folsom and Harrod, between fifth and sixth, really bad neighborhood. I slept on a bunk bed with some of the other Thai guys

• 1:15:42Tim Ferriss?

  and washed my clothing in the sink. So I have a long history with Fairtex, but the point being, not a great area. And Alex Gong, I don't know if you remember this, who owned the school at the time, car crashed into, into, I think it was his car or another car in front of his gym. The guy takes off without stopping. Alex chases him to a stoplight and the guy pulled out and he, and he smashes the window out of the car because he's pissed at this guy. Alex had a temper and the guy pulled the gun and shot him in the chest and killed him on the street.

• 1:16:12Speaker 03

  I remember the date.

• 1:16:14Tim Ferriss?

  And as do I, I mean, it went to his, went to.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  He was a good guy. He, he was amazing too.

• 1:16:19Tim Ferriss?

  He was an amazing fighter, an amazing guy, very hot temper though. I mean, if you want to, if you want to talk about the spectrum that we discussed, I mean, he was on, like if, if, if there's an altercation, it was going to be at DEFCON nine or.

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's part of what I was talking about. You have to assess the situation for what it is and what it could be. And that escalated outside of his control. You know, you brought, you know, a fist to a gunfight.

• 1:16:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  I mean, that's, that's essentially what happened.

• 1:16:49Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that's exactly what happened.

• 1:16:51Speaker 03

  You're just outgunned.

• 1:16:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So, so I took us off, I took us totally off the rails.

• 1:16:56Speaker 03

  I don't even know where we're at now.

• 1:16:57Tim Ferriss?

  I don't, this is, this is the state of my podcast. It's just like, watch, it's like watching Memento, but with, with like 15 different script writers.

• 1:17:06Tim Ferriss?

  I think we were talking about, what the hell are we talking about? We were talking about cornering.

• 1:17:12Speaker 03

  Yes, what do I do in the corner?

• 1:17:13Tim Ferriss?

  And simple. And somehow your brother came up and could you give me an example and camaraderie? I think this is how we got onto it. So when you're in a corner, what would an example of simple be? Because these guys have massive technical experience. They've put in a ton of training time. What are the types of things that you've seen prove very useful?

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  Uh, just an example of, you know, get in boxing range. I mean, this is kind of a little technical, but like if, if our, if the fighter or our opponent is using a lot of kicks, you don't want to be in kicking range, which is essentially a little bit further away from boxing range because your, your legs are longer than your arms generally, right? So get in, get in boxing range. And sometimes you have to remind them to get in that range because that's where you're most effective because we're seeing who's effective, who's not, why. And so everything we say is very simple. Boxing range, get in boxing range. And they'll make those adjustments or they don't, you know, sometimes, you know, depending

• 1:18:14Speaker 03

  on the fighter, some are, I would say quicker to adjust than others, we'll just say, right? Not that they're big headed, they just, I think it comes more naturally. Um, keep your hands up, keep your hands up. They're tending to fall, you know, um, just keeping it real simple, you know, just reminding them of kind of what's going on, the story and how to react to it. Um, I, I say this a lot also, like if I like how things are going,

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  stay on it, stay on it. It's working. Stay on it. Because you're getting hit no matter what. If you go first round, second round, you're going, if you do MMA, you're getting hit. And sometimes when you get hit, you don't realize how much you're hitting them.

• 1:18:56Tim Ferriss?

  Right. You change your tactic even though percentage wise, you're beating the living hell out of them.

• 1:19:01Speaker 03

  Right. Because there's this, in the back of your head, I mean, it's a four ounce glove, right? So in the back of your head, like anyone can knock anyone out. You know what I mean? Like you can take the greatest striker in the world and a guy who struggles with striking and if he's first, simple math and you get hit good and you can go down. Um, so we just kind of just assess the situation for what it is and just throw tidbits out of here's my advice. You know what I mean? Hopefully you take it, maybe you don't. And then if things go bad, we adjust. Now, when the round ends and we get into the corner and start talking, we, it depends on how the round went. If it was close, we say, hey, you lost that round. So even if we think we won the round, but it was really, really close, we tell them it's close or you lost. So you need to go in the second round going, okay, I'm down one already.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  And it's generally a three round fight. If they show tendencies and everyone has a breaking point, every fighter has a breaking point. Some are just, you know, they can, they can handle more than others. Maybe it's genetic. I don't know. Um, but if they start nearing their breaking point, you calm them down. You tell them how great that last round, you're, you're doing good. No, you weathered the storm.

• 1:20:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. By breaking point, is this physical breaking point or is psychological?

• 1:20:14Speaker 03

  They go hand in hand.

• 1:20:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:20:16Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like, physical could be, I'm getting tired, or I didn't get a good warm up on the first round, or I'm starting to get to the third round and now I'm exhausted, whatever it is. Or it's like, man, that, that shin kick really hurt, or that liver punch really, really hurt. And it's poker face constantly because it's like shark, it's like, uh, blood in the water to a shark. If you show that you've been, uh, if you've been hurt, you're showing your hand.

• 1:20:42Tim Ferriss?

  It reminds me of, uh, I remember I was watching the World Cup soccer and I was getting just infuriated by all these slow motion replays of fake injuries. And this, this rugby player from New Zealand piped up on Twitter and he said, rugby is 90 minutes of pretending you're not hurt and soccer is 90 minutes of pretending you are hurt.

• 1:21:01Speaker 03

  You know, you know what? I like your side note because I'm no, it's hard for me to justify sometimes because I used to be a soccer fan. And I'm like, man, they fall, they play the, the rules so much, they fall so much. It's hard for me to justify it. I'm traveling to New Zealand and meeting, you know, you know, a legend from the All Blacks. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm like, what do I say? Like I'm a soccer fan? They're like, wow,

• 1:21:27Speaker 03

  that's cool. That's cute. You know, whatever. I don't know what it is. It's the only team sport where you can have cauliflower ear, you know, rugby.

• 1:21:34Tim Ferriss?

  That's true. So you, uh, so if they're nearing their breaking point.

• 1:21:42Tim Ferriss?

  You have to calm them down.

• 1:21:43Speaker 03

  You have to calm them down, man. You have to distract them like a baby.

• 1:21:46Tim Ferriss?

  How do you, how do you do it?

• 1:21:47Speaker 03

  Like you distract, like, okay, so how does a baby learn pain? By how their parents react when they fall down? So your parents go over there, go, you're all right, get up, let's go, come on, you're good, man. It's kind of like that, you're distracting them, or you're just, hey, man, you're good, man, you're good. Now, here's what I want.

• 1:22:05Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:22:05Speaker 03

  So you're kind of, you're transitioning to that, you're okay, and here's what I want out of this next round. Because you have to remind them they're invincible. And that's whether they are or not.

• 1:22:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  You know, and everyone's different. Like, you can have world champions in MMA, and they're not very tough relatively on the big scale of all of the fighters that exist. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, there's the laziest, you know, what's a, like, a, like a military guy? Like, you think of the high, elite military guys. There's a spectrum for everything. There's the Jaco Willink, and then there's like someone who may not be that,

• 1:22:46Speaker 03

  you know, on it, whatever that, whatever that means.

• 1:22:49Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:22:50Speaker 03

  And so you have to know that going in and understand his strengths and weaknesses, and understand how he'll react to the way you talk to him. And then you got to hit that note. And you're stressed out.

• 1:23:01Speaker 03

  Because it's, it's a weird thing. You have to like, like, I go to the, this guy's weddings, and I play with his kids, and then I got to go see him get almost knocked out in front of thousands of people. You know what I mean? I mean, it's not war, but it's, it's in your face, and it's, you know, it's not, it's not table tennis either, you know what I mean? Like, you know?

• 1:23:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it would be, uh, yeah, particularly vicious form of table tennis. I'm not sure what that would look like, but.

• 1:23:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:23:28Tim Ferriss?

  How has that influenced, or how, how have all of these experiences impacted your thoughts on parenting?

• 1:23:39Tim Ferriss?

  If at all.

• 1:23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe the answer is not much, but.

• 1:23:41Speaker 03

  When you say all, all of these experiences, I mean, I, I grew up, like I said, with no choice, do martial arts, like, and I see the extreme value in it. I mean, obviously, I'm biased. I'm a car salesman, and you come in with, you know, a dented fender, you know, you need a new car. What do you mean, like, um?

• 1:24:02Speaker 03

  I call it like this, when we talk about like kids who go through training, hardcore training like I have, physically on a physical realm and many times on a mental realm, they are so beyond their peers. You know, like try to bully one of my students. It's just, it's not gonna happen. Like you're not gonna be able to.

• 1:24:24Speaker 03

  So when we talk about parenting, it's like I'm trying to find the balance between the pressure that I

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  experienced as a child and as a child of my parents and as a child of my parents who wanted me to compete and my dad wanted me to be an Olympian. With the variables that exist today that didn't then.

• 1:24:45Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:24:46Speaker 03

  Do you think the crop of individuals trying to get a job today are different than they were 40 years ago? The, with different thresholds and different, I would say tendencies.

• 1:24:59Tim Ferriss?

  I would have to imagine, yes, but I don't know.

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  I mean, it's hard to know anything like that, but, but

• 1:25:07Speaker 03

  all I know is I know the difference between someone who's trained through an extended period of time and where they were when they walked in my door. And so I know that training is gonna be a part of my son's life, for example.

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  I don't think that should be an option.

• 1:25:24Tim Ferriss?

  You mean, you mean the, it shouldn't be an option to opt out of that?

• 1:25:28Speaker 03

  Right. Like it's not an option for me for, for a child to go to school. It's the same with training. In my household.

• 1:25:35Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:25:36Speaker 03

  Because we understand the importance of it. And so I think the single most though experience though that I've, that has helped me. You know, I'm a new father. What do I know? I'm a white belt right now, but is teaching kids and seeing the differences and seeing multiple kids come in, starting from zero and even seeing that line of zero being totally different. And scaling and them having different strengths and weaknesses at the start.

• 1:26:07Speaker 03

  And it started reminding me like this isn't just nature or nurture. It's a combination of the two. I sincerely believe all kids are different genetically. And if they're, if they're different genetically, then they're different physically as well. I mean, emotionally and physically, they have to be.

• 1:26:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  So I look at these little kids that just start and some of them are animals. Super fast, very prone to do things that are athletic. And then I see other kids that are on the other side of the spectrum. There is a spectrum. And so with my son and me being a parent, I don't know what I I've got to work with yet.

• 1:26:42Tim Ferriss?

  Materials yet. How old is your son?

• 1:26:43Speaker 03

  It's gonna, he's eight months. I'm a white, like I said, my first stripe is coming pretty soon. White belt first stripe.

• 1:26:51Tim Ferriss?

  So when, when we were chatting earlier, having coffee, you were talking about how there's, there's always another level, right? Who is the most impressive person? Or who has impressed you the most in jujitsu when you've sparred with them?

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  Well, the GOAT, it's Marcelo Garcia. And all of my experiences, I say that with confidence because I train with Rafa Mendez as well.

• 1:27:20Tim Ferriss?

  Who is Rafa Mendez?

• 1:27:21Speaker 03

  Rafa Mendez is, I don't know, 13, 14 time world champion. I don't know, indifferent. He's, I think, a six time gi, which is the uniform IBJJF International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation World Champion, which is the biggest stage in jujitsu. They don't have Olympics. If there was an Olympics, he'd be six time gold medalist in the Olympics or whatever it is. But then again, that's every four years. So he'd be like 42 right now. But anyway, you know, they both tied me in knots, but like, I just think Marcelo, because he can do what he does.

• 1:27:58Speaker 03

  Almost regardless of how much you weigh and your size and you know, whereas Rafa tends to stick to his size. Marcelo Garcia is like, and this is why I admire him so much. I don't care who's on the other side. I don't care who's walking in. I don't care if, you know, the lights are on in the arena. I got to my spot and then here comes thud, thud like Jurassic Park. He's so big, making, you know what I mean? Like

• 1:28:22Tim Ferriss?

  Totally.

• 1:28:22Speaker 03

  Doors open and here's this behemoth with horns and drooling and he's going to go in there. Okay, cool. I'm gonna take his back and choke him out.

• 1:28:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Speaker 03

  And then he goes and does that.

• 1:28:31Tim Ferriss?

  What did it so I've spent some time with Marcelo because he co owns his school with very close friend of mine, Josh Waitzkin.

• 1:28:38Speaker 03

  Waitzkin, I've listened to your, your talks with him.

• 1:28:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:41Speaker 03

  Brilliant guy.

• 1:28:42Tim Ferriss?

  He's, he's amazing. Really good dad, too.

• 1:28:44Speaker 03

  I can help him with chess if you want, if you, uh, if you got his number or anything, yeah.

• 1:28:49Tim Ferriss?

  So for those who don't know Josh, uh, he's been on the podcast twice. He was the inspiration for Searching for Bobby Fischer, both the book and the movie. Considered a chess prodigy, but very skilled, uh, jujitsu.

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  Black belt.

• 1:28:59Tim Ferriss?

  Dedicated, yeah. Black belt under Marcelo and, uh, world champion in tai chi push hands as well, among many other skills. But Marcelo, just to your point, I remember chatting with him at some point. Nicest guy ever. I mean,

• 1:29:14Speaker 03

  Super nice guy.

• 1:29:15Tim Ferriss?

  No attitude whatsoever, no ego. I mean, like to the, just the friendliest guy I'll ever meet. And, uh, he was saying, or maybe Josh was telling me that Marcelo never practices anything that won't work on a 300 pound black belt. He just, that's it. It's like if the technique, if it's something he's going to practice and put time into on the mat, it has to work against someone who's twice his size and extremely technical.

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  That's that universal mentality.

• 1:29:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  That's outstanding.

• 1:29:44Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, so what is it? What does it feel like to spar with? Because I mean, I have no, I can't if sparring, like him sparring with me is like a polar bear versus a a shih tzu. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. So what

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  Many black belts will say the same thing.

• 1:29:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Tim Ferriss?

  Many black belts will say the same thing about.

• 1:30:03Speaker 03

  About Marcelo Garcia, training with Marcelo. They might as well be a white belt.

• 1:30:07Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:30:08Speaker 03

  And so like.

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  I think one of your guests I was listening to talked about like there are people that just jump on the mat and they're just super talented and they're they're made for it BJ Penn, Marcelo Garcia, Rafa Mendez. And so it gets difficult to track like when you're a new student, like who should you listen to? Because it's growing so much because your idols are these freaks of nature, you know, you know, I know firsthand. But how is it rolling with him?

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  It's a situation because I'm genetically, I would say prone to speed. Like I'm pretty fast and in judo I got very fast. And I remember one of the first times we engaged, I was in a good position. And my mind's like, wow, you're doing pretty good. And then he's on my back. And so it's like, it's that split second where you're like, you're, I'm doing good. Everything is going great. And then like, I'm like, am I gonna tap now? Or am I gonna fight this stupid grip that he has on my neck? And then he taps me. So it's one of those things where you have to be aggressive, but not aggressive. Because it doesn't seem like you can get a foothold

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  on what mode and tempo is gonna work for this individual in front of you. But we had some good battles. Like, we had a lot of fun. Like, the no gi, I had a lot of fun rolling with him. But, and I was younger. I was like 31 at the time. So I was like, getting ready for my last match in competition. So I was in good shape. And so that's why it was important me to be in good shape to train with him on that level. But yeah, I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing to be able to, that's what one of the things about jiu jitsu is like, if you're into soccer, or, or football, or basketball, you know, you can't meet Michael Jordan just because you want to. Right. You can't just call him on the phone and go take a seminar, or go face to face with him. That's not gonna happen. But you can go take a lesson from this guy.

• 1:32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's incredible. Who's, yeah, the GOAT, the greatest of all time. I was wondering what the hell you meant by that. The GOAT, oh yeah. Greatest of all time. Greatest of all time. Yeah. Yeah, he. I'd have looked that up, too. Yeah, people.

• 1:32:17Tim Ferriss?

  People consider him like the Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, the fill in the blank icon of any sport combined. I mean, he's heard a funny story about Marcelo that you'll appreciate, just the given the freak of nature comment. He went to a rock climbing gym. He's not a rock climber. He went to a rock climbing gym with a friend and they had what's called a dynamometer there. It measures grip strength. And these guys are like straining, faces red and they're, these are beasts. I mean, these guys are incredibly strong. And Marcelo, they give to Marcelo, he's like, huh, pop and just breaks it. And they're like, uh, that's not supposed to happen. Never touched one before in his life. And they're like, whoa, okay. Yeah, this guy's different.

• 1:33:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's ridiculous. And that, that will translate to other things, you know?

• 1:33:05Tim Ferriss?

  And he, one thing that really impressed me about Marcelo, and I haven't spent a ton of time with him, but just watching him teach and watching him move, you know, one of his nicknames is the master of the scramble. But he thinks about the in-between spaces as much as he thinks about the positions, which is really interesting. Like, he thinks of the transition between two positions as a position. And

• 1:33:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:33:29Tim Ferriss?

  thinks a lot about how to exploit that space. It's a trip. Yeah, it's a trip.

• 1:33:37Speaker 03

  That's, that's about, that's what we talk about with being like a step ahead, planning. But that stuff's not thought.

• 1:33:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  It's, it's reaction. Like, that's locked and loaded for him.

• 1:33:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:48Speaker 03

  There's no really, like, delay.

• 1:33:50Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 1:33:51Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:33:51Tim Ferriss?

  No delay whatsoever. Let me ask a couple of, I guess you could call these rapid fire questions. They're gonna seem like non sequiturs. The answers don't need to be short, rather they can be as long as they need to. But are there any particular books that you've gifted the most to other people besides your own?

• 1:34:10Speaker 03

  I mean, besides the three that you, you put me on, The Magic of Thinking Big, The 80/20 Principle, The E-Myth. The E-Myth was huge. I mean,

• 1:34:18Tim Ferriss?

  Particularly for your type of business.

• 1:34:20Speaker 03

  You're the one, yeah, because I was starting my business at the time. You're like, hey, Dave, read this book.

• 1:34:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:24Speaker 03

  And even after reading the book, essentially the E is the entrepreneur who's trying to do everything. And then sales fall because you're

• 1:34:32Tim Ferriss?

  The bottleneck.

• 1:34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, your bottleneck. You're, you're, you're,

• 1:34:38Speaker 03

  Having difficulties doing everything with efficiency. And it's hard to, type A personality is hard to let go.

• 1:34:45Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:34:46Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like it's hard to like relinquish control, but now I'm much better at it. Like, I don't want to do anything. It's weird sometimes.

• 1:34:52Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you were asking me about the magic, or you noted the magic thinking big, which is sitting on my shelf here in my living room, face out. And then you asked about tribe, which is also faced out by Sebastian Younger. And I made the comment that I've organized, and I think it's functional OCD, maybe it's not technical OCD, but all of my books are very particularly ordered on my bookshelf and they're facing out. And so I have the books that are facing outermost are intended to elicit certain thoughts or remind me of certain things. So for those people curious, I have tribe, Sebastian Younger, gratitude by Oliver Sacks.

• 1:35:33Tim Ferriss?

  Less is more, which is an anthology of stoic quotes and thoughts on minimalism. Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott, a Japanese book about Tsu-Mei Shogi, which is a long story, Japanese chess book. The Magic of Thinking Big, Dune by Frank Herbert, and then Zorba the Greek. So you mentioned the magic thinking big, you mentioned the E-Myth, and then

• 1:35:59Speaker 03

  The 80/20 principle.

• 1:36:01Tim Ferriss?

  80/20, which I also have up there at the very end.

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  Which can be applied to anything. But I would say the art of wars is another one I have to mention.

• 1:36:09Tim Ferriss?

  I have one of your books here, by the way. It's a book by Clausewitz on the art of warfare. I've had it since you were at my house in Willow Glen. You left it there and I've traveled with it now for 12 years.

• 1:36:22Speaker 03

  I try to find like something that will, like if I gotta work out, I listen to Slayer.

• 1:36:28Tim Ferriss?

  Which album?

• 1:36:29Speaker 03

  The newest, the latest one, Repentless.

• 1:36:31Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I haven't heard that.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  It's, you can always count on them. Them and Tool.

• 1:36:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, Slayer's, but Slayer's got some longevity.

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  But the thing is, is like, it's a mood creator. It creates a mood. Like, like if I gotta lift heavy things up and down again, which is, seems ridiculous and redundant, but you know, I get strong and all that. But I gotta go in with an attitude of like, I need to smash this. So I gotta, that's, that's one of the things I use day to day. I try to, I try to.

• 1:36:58Speaker 03

  Use a mode altering something. You know.

• 1:37:05Speaker 03

  If I need to smash something, it's Slayer. If I need to relax and calm down, I'll listen to eighties pop. Something like that. You know what I mean?

• 1:37:14Tim Ferriss?

  We're talking MJ? What are we, what are we talking about? Prince? What's your go to?

• 1:37:17Speaker 03

  Prince is great. I just go random. Go.

• 1:37:21Tim Ferriss?

  So you're listening to Pandora or how do you?

• 1:37:23Speaker 03

  Pandora.

• 1:37:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Speaker 03

  What's, what's your station? The album. I'm sorry?

• 1:37:27Tim Ferriss?

  So it's eighties pop? That's the, that's the station?

• 1:37:29Speaker 03

  Eighties pop. That's what it is. Yeah. Every morning. I try every morning.

• 1:37:33Tim Ferriss?

  It's hard to be upset when you're listening to Prince.

• 1:37:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:36Tim Ferriss?

  When I first started meditating, and this isn't that long ago, that was probably whatever, three years ago, let's say. The way I started is a friend recommended I listen to one song in the morning and just lean against the wall and focus on my breathing for the length of the song. So I listened to It's Time to Party Like It's 1999. It's hard to be upset with the world or depressed if you're listening to that song.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  It's impossible. That whole Batman soundtrack was Prince.

• 1:37:59Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that's true. That was the best thing about the movie.

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  Oh, I liked it too.

• 1:38:05Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any favorite? Oh, you know what? I should thank you. So you, you mentioned a couple of books that I introduced you to. I'll thank you for two movies that you introduced me to. One, I've mentioned before, still one of my favorites, Shaun of the Dead.

• 1:38:17Speaker 03

  Great movie.

• 1:38:18Tim Ferriss?

  Must have. And then there was another one that I saw at, I want to say it was a birthday party for you. Is it Just Friends? Is that what it is?

• 1:38:25Speaker 03

  Great movie.

• 1:38:26Tim Ferriss?

  Oh my God. You haven't seen Just so good.

• 1:38:29Speaker 03

  Christmas, family wholesome movie.

• 1:38:33Tim Ferriss?

  I'm busy too, you dick. Sorry. You need to see the movie.

• 1:38:39Speaker 03

  Hot Fuzz. We went to the premiere.

• 1:38:41Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that's right. We went to the premiere of Hot Fuzz after Shaun of the Dead had already embedded itself in my brain. So do you have any other favorite movies or documentaries?

• 1:38:52Speaker 03

  John Carpenter's The Thing, without even skipping a beat or

• 1:38:55Tim Ferriss?

  Never seen it.

• 1:38:56Speaker 03

  hesitating. Really?

• 1:38:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Speaker 03

  I think 84?

• 1:38:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's a movie that

• 1:39:00Speaker 03

  Kurt Russell?

• 1:39:01Tim Ferriss?

  If my, if my mind serves, if my memory serves me right, took a while to become sort of a cult classic, right? It wasn't, I don't think it was a hit off the bat.

• 1:39:09Speaker 03

  To me, it's probably top three in the world that, you know, of all genres. It's the sense of paranoia. You don't really know what's going on. And you can nerd out. There's some people that I like really nerd out on step to step. What's happening, different clothing moved and just, you know, when the nerds get a hold of something, you, oh, it's just amazing. That movie is amazing and it's, I mean, you shouldn't see it when you're eight years old, which is when I saw it, but I think I turned out fine.

• 1:39:35Speaker 03

  And then the other John Carpenter movie, Big Trouble in Little China.

• 1:39:41Tim Ferriss?

  That's a great movie.

• 1:39:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Tim Ferriss?

  I love that movie.

• 1:39:44Speaker 03

  That's why my wife is Chinese.

• 1:39:47Speaker 03

  That has nothing to do with it.

• 1:39:48Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm from Taiwan and

• 1:39:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:39:52Tim Ferriss?

  you are Taiwanese, I should say, and you enjoy spending time in Taiwan, one of my favorite places.

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  Taipei specifically, but yeah, Taiwan, I love Taiwan. I love being out of the country just to be out of the country.

• 1:40:05Speaker 03

  But Taipei is like Japan, but the Chinese version of, of Shinjuku, maybe, you know?

• 1:40:10Tim Ferriss?

  It's so much fun. I mean, I haven't been back in probably 10 years and I'm dying to go back because you have, for those people who haven't been, a lot of the culture that was in mainland China prior to the cultural revolution was effectively shuttled down to Taiwan. And then you had, you know, the Japanese influence, of course. So you have this very unique combination of rich cultural heritage, incredible food, tropical climate and etiquette. It's just a politeness. It's, it's such a wonderful combination and

• 1:40:50Tim Ferriss?

  And maybe this is common in other parts of China, although I haven't experienced it myself. It's like Argentina in the sense that people go late there. They have the night markets and I remember going into restaurants at like 11, 12, 1 o'clock and families would just roll up with their strollers. And I'm like, wow, all right. These people know how to party.

• 1:41:09Speaker 03

  You can live and die in a single block area because it has everything you need. Doctor, optometrist, you can give birth, grocery store, everything in one little block.

• 1:41:21Tim Ferriss?

  Good old Taipei.

• 1:41:22Speaker 03

  Taipei.

• 1:41:24Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any quotes or mantras that you think of often or live your life by? Or favorite quotes?

• 1:41:35Speaker 03

  Yes. From a friend of mine, I was

• 1:41:41Speaker 03

  training just a bunch of military guys, right? In a room and I was kind of new to this, so I was a little nervous, but teaching my class, doing my thing and they were doing a like a guard pass drill. So they're all actively fighting each other, one on top, one on bottom. And it's my job to kind of reinforce like excitement in people and let them know they're doing well when they're doing well and be positively critical when, when I need them to adjust a behavior. So I'm walking around doing my thing and I get to a group and I go, we'll call him Johnny and I go, Johnny, that was the best guard passing I've seen all day. That was awesome. Let's keep it going.

• 1:42:18Speaker 03

  And I start walking and he stops the fight, stands up,

• 1:42:24Speaker 03

  turns to me and says, I don't need any fucking positive reinforcement.

• 1:42:33Speaker 03

  Turns back and jumps in and fights the guy again without missing a beat.

• 1:42:39Speaker 03

  And I remember being stunned and I'm normally not stunned. You can say anything and when I teach a class and I stopped and I'm like, my mind's like, keep walking, you know? And I remember dwelling on it and I'm like, The first thing that came to my head was like, where the hell am I right now? Like, I've never heard that in my life. I don't need positive reinforcement. What are you, an alien?

• 1:43:05Speaker 03

  And that has just stuck with me and I don't mean a curse, but you can't say it without cursing.

• 1:43:11Tim Ferriss?

  No, you can't. This is not Disney programming.

• 1:43:13Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like, you can't. That's how it was said and that's the power and that's how I remember it. And that's how it influences me. And literally like, I get charged just thinking about it and-

• 1:43:23Tim Ferriss?

  How does it influence you?

• 1:43:25Speaker 03

  Because it reminds me I'm not as good as I need to be.

• 1:43:30Tim Ferriss?

  You mean just mentally?

• 1:43:31Speaker 03

  I think mentally, everything. Like, I really think that I shouldn't need positive reinforcement. I should do a task because I like the task. It's creative for me, so it's, you know, intellectually stimulating and it's my job and I'm moving forward and I'm helping people. And then I move on to another task. Once I complete that task, I need to move on to another task. And not sit there and wait around for the treat. You know what I mean? Like, it's not Halloween every day. Like, I'm not, you know what I mean? Like, I don't need... But when I heard that, I'm like, I don't have the experiences this guy has and that's fine. I understand that. But I'm gonna draw upon that and in my times of weakness,

• 1:44:14Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say it as loud as I can and remind myself how great you can be as a human being.

• 1:44:22Tim Ferriss?

  I like that. That's a good, that's a good one. I remember-

• 1:44:24Speaker 03

  I'm gonna make a shirt. I gotta make a shirt.

• 1:44:27Tim Ferriss?

  Give it to your students. I, uh, I remember at one point, uh,

• 1:44:35Tim Ferriss?

  I was talking to my first, my first direct report, I really developed a relationship, first job out of college, the VP of Sales. I was trying to sell mass data storage. To companies like DreamWorks and American Airlines and stuff. These storage area networks, as they were called at the time, fiber channel. And I prepared for my first, he was known as a ballbuster and he'd just been hired, brought into the company. And, and people were kind of walking on eggshells. So they're like, yes, guy's temper. He's really good at what he does. He's been through three IPOs. He's incredible, but like, we don't know what to make of him. And I'm like, oh, fuck. So I spent all this time preparing because I had a handful of accounts to report to him.

• 1:45:16Tim Ferriss?

  And, you know, I came out of Princeton, so I'm really wordy and verbose and just over complicating everything. So I bring in this just massive stack of stuff that I'm basically intending to read to him. Remember, I'm like, I'm like,

• 1:45:32Tim Ferriss?

  extremely on edge and I sit down and being weirdly formal and then I, I start reading this crap. And I get about two minutes into it and he goes, Tim, Tim. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, yes, sir. And he goes, he goes, I don't need the story. I just need the next steps. And another thing he would say, he's like, I don't need the good news. The good news takes care of itself. What's going wrong?

• 1:45:57Speaker 03

  So awesome.

• 1:46:00Speaker 03

  I like, just to kind of go back to, these, these are similar stories, like the idea where you're wasting my time with compliments and the weather is good. Like, maybe it's my personality, your personality, maybe, let's get to the point. Like, and the other thing is whatever I say, you're not going to be butthurt.

• 1:46:21Speaker 03

  Like I've been in environments where I was even like called out in front of a bunch of people. And I'm like, okay, cool.

• 1:46:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:29Speaker 03

  Because, wait, wait, wait, wait. We don't.

• 1:46:33Tim Ferriss?

  I want to hear about this.

• 1:46:34Speaker 03

  We don't get butthurt.

• 1:46:36Tim Ferriss?

  By the way, that's an expression that a lot of engineers here have started using and they don't.

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  Is that just engineers? I don't know.

• 1:46:43Tim Ferriss?

  No, it's not just engineers. But for whatever reason, it's become really popular. And one of my buddies runs this huge company and he had to like have a, he's like, look, I'm not really political correctness guy. But like, if you walk in to give a presentation, like 50 people who are not part of your little like cave clan of five hardcore engineers, like you can't say butthurt to everybody, guys.

• 1:47:03Speaker 03

  Is that, is that bad?

• 1:47:06Speaker 03

  No, seriously, like, I don't even, what does that mean? Like, someone kicked you in the butt or something?

• 1:47:09Tim Ferriss?

  No, no.

• 1:47:12Tim Ferriss?

  I'm making hand signals, but the

• 1:47:17Tim Ferriss?

  so this is this is a light bulb going off, but so what you wait, you said you were dressed down.

• 1:47:22Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:47:23Tim Ferriss?

  No, you're good. You're good.

• 1:47:25Speaker 03

  So it's just an environment, you know, when you train.

• 1:47:29Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, but what happened? Can you talk about it? You really called out or dressed down or something?

• 1:47:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I was just, I was advising on a specific path of training, you know, like

• 1:47:39Tim Ferriss?

  This is in the military context.

• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  Military contracts, let's do some training with this. Let's do it with in this situation and let's do it with this gear on and this and whatever. And he's like, no, we don't do that. That's bad. You'll get hurt. And then it was like same guy, by the way. And then just moving on like, all right. And then I just went to the next thing.

• 1:47:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:56Speaker 03

  Because it's like, and I may not have been there if I hadn't been surrounded in that environment. It has really changed me.

• 1:48:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Well, you became the average of the five people you associate with most.

• 1:48:07Speaker 03

  I, I was listening to your drunk dialing last night and that's exactly what you said. The first guy's like, how do I raise my kids? You're like, okay, make sure they're surrounding themselves with people.

• 1:48:17Speaker 03

  Sometimes you have to check yourself and do, you know, but that's, that's so true. You, you become who you're surrounded by and these experiences have just motivated me and just blown, I was telling you this morning, I'm like, I'm happier now than I've ever been. Why? The stars are becoming aligned like for the first time, like I'm learning, like, yes, I do have control over this, this, and this, and I need to make this change and, and adopt this and carry that residue of awesomeness and you know, to avoid the earlier comment.

• 1:48:51Speaker 03

  Sensitivity that I think could cloud your judgment. Is that, did I do a good job on that?

• 1:48:57Tim Ferriss?

  That was good. That was a good, nice, nice recovery.

• 1:48:59Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:49:00Tim Ferriss?

  I have a book for you, by the way, I'm going to give you a copy. I have a stack of these copies about face.

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  We'll take it.

• 1:49:05Tim Ferriss?

  By, uh, it is Hackworth. Yeah. David Hackworth. That is Jaco's favorite book.

• 1:49:12Speaker 03

  Beautiful.

• 1:49:14Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. If you had a billboard and you could put anything on it, gigantic billboard. So in other words, if you have a message, but like a short message, you want to get out to the world. What would you put on it?

• 1:49:25Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:49:26Tim Ferriss?

  Aside from you do not need positive reinforcement.

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  Man, that's gotta be the best.

• 1:49:32Tim Ferriss?

  Could be that.

• 1:49:33Speaker 03

  I think it would just be, you know, I can't wait for Christmas.

• 1:49:38Tim Ferriss?

  You do love Christmas.

• 1:49:39Speaker 03

  It's my favorite time of year. Right now, the trifecta.

• 1:49:41Tim Ferriss?

  Do you listen?

• 1:49:42Speaker 03

  Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas.

• 1:49:45Tim Ferriss?

  Rapid fire.

• 1:49:46Speaker 03

  Like spikes and like smiles coming my way like.

• 1:49:50Tim Ferriss?

  Do you listen to, okay, this is, this is an important question.

• 1:49:56Tim Ferriss?

  Do you only listen to Christmas carols very close to Christmas?

• 1:49:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so.

• 1:50:00Tim Ferriss?

  What's your policy?

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  It depends. I think I start mid-November.

• 1:50:03Tim Ferriss?

  Mid-November.

• 1:50:04Speaker 03

  Which is early.

• 1:50:06Tim Ferriss?

  It's early. I still rock the same way.

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  I picked up finally because I have a Christmas cup for coffee and I used it today.

• 1:50:16Tim Ferriss?

  So you retire that cup for the rest of the year?

• 1:50:21Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:21Tim Ferriss?

  What does the Christmas cup look like?

• 1:50:23Speaker 03

  It's just got like a reindeer and like a Christmas tree on it and it's beautiful. It's my favorite coffee cup. And like, so when we talk about like, like those bio hacks that really elevate your mood and all that. When I have that and it's, you can smell the cold, you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:50:39Tim Ferriss?

  I get it.

• 1:50:39Speaker 03

  The new cold coming in, you know, the change of weather. And you know, families around and now I have my son and my family. It's just like the greatest thing in the world.

• 1:50:48Tim Ferriss?

  Winds all around.

• 1:50:49Speaker 03

  Like you just, yeah, it's just, I want to hug everybody.

• 1:50:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:52Speaker 03

  And then choke them.

• 1:50:53Tim Ferriss?

  Hug them and then choke them. It's, it's, it's a, it's a fine line. You can go from, you can go from hugging to choking really quickly with Dave.

• 1:51:00Speaker 03

  My mom, growing up, was like trying to throw her on the ground. Like she was so tough. I mean, like, there was no real hugs. It was hug to gain proper hand position.

• 1:51:09Tim Ferriss?

  Was your mom a judoka as well?

• 1:51:10Speaker 03

  No, she was just super tough.

• 1:51:13Tim Ferriss?

  She was just a sniper.

• 1:51:14Speaker 03

  She was snipe.

• 1:51:16Speaker 03

  That was dinner.

• 1:51:20Tim Ferriss?

  Can't wait for Christmas. That's a good one. I can't wait for Christmas. It's true.

• 1:51:24Speaker 03

  What are you doing for Christmas?

• 1:51:25Tim Ferriss?

  I'm.

• 1:51:26Speaker 03

  What do you do normally?

• 1:51:27Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I, I've taken my parents, you know, my parents are getting older and I took a hard look. I read a book and it's one of those books where you learn. 50% of what you need to know from the title, but it's still powerful. And I want to say it was something like, this is not it, but it's happier spending. And it was, it was, it was written by, I think it was two social scientists or two sociologists and not very hard science, but looking at how you can spend money more effectively to improve the quality of your life, looking at the categories, the types of experiences

• 1:52:03Tim Ferriss?

  and purchases that, based on studies, however flimsy, based on the data that is available, that are available for those nerds, what types of purchases are going to improve your quality of life? And I read a piece by Tim Urban, I think is his name, pretty sure, on a site called Wait But Why, which is brilliant. And I want to say it was called The Tail End, and it had a huge impact on me. It was recommended to me by another person who's been on the podcast, Matt Mullenweg, really impressive guy. And it effectively said, by the time, and I'm paraphrasing here, by the time you're

• 1:52:43Tim Ferriss?

  18, you have already passed something like 90% of the total hours you will ever spend with your parents before they die. It was something like that. And it shows you in both graphics and prose and math, how little time you have left with your parents on the planet in terms of total hours. And so for the last few years, I've taken my parents on trips for Christmas to places that they might not, well, that they otherwise wouldn't visit or couldn't visit. So we took a trip to a luthra in the Bahamas, where my parents used to spend a lot of time, long, long time ago, and my grandparents were still around, but hadn't been back in

• 1:53:25Tim Ferriss?

  whatever it was, 20, 30 years, and spent the, another Christmas in Iceland. My mom had always wanted to see the Northern Lights for her entire life. And I just looked at my expenditures and I was like, even if I had to dial back in other areas, yes, it's, it's going to be expensive, manageably so, but not inexpensive.

• 1:53:47Tim Ferriss?

  But so what? I mean, what am I saving for? Right? And I tend to spend, I don't spend a whole lot of money. I don't have an exorbitant lifestyle. I don't own a car. I don't have extremely expensive habits. So for the last two years, we've done that, but I'm really eager to have a Christmas at home, meaning at my parents' place. And so we're gonna, we're gonna stay home this year. So that's what I'm doing for Christmas this year. But if you,

• 1:54:18Tim Ferriss?

  let's see, how old are you now?

• 1:54:20Speaker 03

  Forty.

• 1:54:21Tim Ferriss?

  So what advice would you give to your 30-year-old self, if anything? And what are you doing at 30?

• 1:54:29Speaker 03

  Uh, what was I doing at 30?

• 1:54:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Like where, where were you? What were you up to?

• 1:54:33Speaker 03

  I think I was realizing and taking, I would say, listening to some really close people, good advice to create my own small little empire, essentially, you know? My guerrilla jitsu, you know, create academies and just really, really, you're no longer a competitor, be the best instructor you can be, kind of thing.

• 1:54:58Speaker 03

  I, I think the best advice I would give myself is just,

• 1:55:03Speaker 03

  when I say like, like, enjoy yourself more, not, not have fun more, but enjoy yourself more. And I think there's a difference. Having, I've had so much fun in my life. Fun to me are like quick spikes of parties or whatever, whatever it is, celebrating this or whatever.

• 1:55:21Speaker 03

  But enjoying it is, I was, I would say more sustainable.

• 1:55:25Speaker 03

  And like, I had, you know, I've had issues of just focusing too much on what I'm not in control of, what I'm not doing, what I should be doing.

• 1:55:36Speaker 03

  Instead of, and I learned this through the years, but instead of,

• 1:55:42Speaker 03

  Just dialing in what will make me sustainably happy. So to get there quicker, I think that's the best way I would say it is, man, enjoy yourself. Like you have a lot going on, not that, you know, that whole thing like, oh, things could be worse. No, no, you have a lot of greatness going on, a lot of good stuff surrounding you, a lot of good people, an amazing family.

• 1:56:04Speaker 03

  Like you talk about being more mindful, you know, of, of, of the goodness in your life. And I think, uh, enjoying life, like enjoy, bro, enjoy life, man.

• 1:56:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, appreciating it.

• 1:56:15Speaker 03

  No, appreciating it. And I think I've learned that now. I wish I had learned it when I was 30 or maybe 20. But, uh, that's number one, you know, you know.

• 1:56:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's gotta be it. You gotta savor it, uh, when you can. And I think for, it's particularly hard for type A personalities like you or like me to do that because we're so kind of target focused, objective focused, next, next, next. Uh, I think that, uh, it's something you have to train like anything else.

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  Like anything else.

• 1:56:50Tim Ferriss?

  Dave, we could go for hours and hours, and I think we might do around two at some point.

• 1:56:55Speaker 03

  Yes, that was fun, man. It's good seeing you though.

• 1:56:58Tim Ferriss?

  It's great seeing you too. It's been, it's been a long.

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  So long.

• 1:57:00Tim Ferriss?

  I know, I know.

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  I miss you, bro.

• 1:57:02Tim Ferriss?

  Miss you too, man. Before we cut out, uh, favorite, this is gonna be such a, this is not a good question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

• 1:57:13Tim Ferriss?

  Both gi and no gi, uh, favorite guard pass.

• 1:57:17Speaker 03

  Favorite guard pass, just random jujitsu stuff. Gi and no gi, gi, stack pass.

• 1:57:24Tim Ferriss?

  Stack pass.

• 1:57:25Speaker 03

  And that's where you stack the lower part of their body on top of their upper part of their body and you drive it down towards their spine, which is not healthy for your spine, right? I call it the pass that makes your opponent hate jujitsu.

• 1:57:39Speaker 03

  Right? The nogi pass is flying kimura.

• 1:57:45Tim Ferriss?

  Flying kimura?

• 1:57:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, nogi tends to get really slippery or MMA. And so like I said in my book, I said, create chaos.

• 1:57:54Tim Ferriss?

  Now, which book is this for people?

• 1:57:55Speaker 03

  This is the one you were in. I think it was the one you were in.

• 1:57:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:57:58Tim Ferriss?

  What's title?

• 1:57:59Speaker 03

  Uh, submit everyone. Everyone.

• 1:58:02Tim Ferriss?

  If you want to see photos of me getting arm barred and choked in various positions and doing some weird shit with my legs. One of my fans pointed out, I don't know why I'm like trying to figure for you'll see it doesn't make any sense what I'm doing, but I'm getting my ass kicked anyway. So submit everyone.

• 1:58:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a flying submission. So traditionally like you control the legs to get to the side control to score points. That's what you're talking about referring to passing.

• 1:58:24Speaker 03

  Instead of passing, because that's what they think I'm going to do, I'm going to jump either to a guillotine or kimura. I'm like kimura is my favorite. My buddy Jared invented this flying kimura from guard. And I'm like flying what? What? Yeah, I gotta do it. I like jumping and then submitting people. Um, so I think like if things are like headed in a certain direction and people are like, this is what's going to happen. You do something totally off the wall. Ridiculous and they're not going to expect it.

• 1:58:49Tim Ferriss?

  So what's Jared's last name?

• 1:58:51Speaker 03

  Fearbend. He's a gorilla jujitsu black belt. Yeah.

• 1:58:54Tim Ferriss?

  Fearbend.

• 1:58:54Speaker 03

  He's a beast. He's a really good dude. Minnesota.

• 1:58:57Tim Ferriss?

  Good last.

• 1:58:57Speaker 03

  He's got a great academy.

• 1:59:00Speaker 03

  I mean, kind of same experiences, but, uh, black arrow martial arts named after, I think, a movie, like one of the Hobbit movies or something, but he's just really into like.

• 1:59:09Tim Ferriss?

  What is it with all the nerds converging on jujitsu?

• 1:59:12Speaker 03

  I only hang out with brilliant people that let me just say that. He's one of the guys I love to nerd out with.

• 1:59:18Tim Ferriss?

  And where can people find you online or elsewhere? Where can they get more from you?

• 1:59:24Speaker 03

  Social media, you can go Twitter and Instagram at davecamarillo.com or at davecamarillo. The dot com is gorilla jujitsu.com. G U E R R I L L A.

• 1:59:41Tim Ferriss?

  Jujitsu.

• 1:59:42Speaker 03

  Jujitsu.

• 1:59:42Tim Ferriss?

  J I U?

• 1:59:44Speaker 03

  J I T S U. The gorilla is more like.

• 1:59:50Speaker 03

  Unorthodox, crazy method of doing something.

• 1:59:52Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. Less hairy back, more ghillie suit.

• 1:59:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:00:00Speaker 03

  Very cool, man. Thanks, dude.

• 2:00:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, buddy.

• 2:00:02Speaker 03

  This is awesome.

• 2:00:02Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks so much. And to everybody listening, you can find links to everything we've talked about, Dave's books, Instagram, social, probably videos of he and his brother beating the living shit out of each other, and much more in the show notes, which you can find at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. So spell it out, fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. And as always, and until next time, thank you, everybody, for listening to the Dipper Show.

• 2:00:35Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends,

• 2:01:16Tim Ferriss?

  for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Vimeo, specifically a new offering called Vimeo Business. I've done a lot of collaboration with these guys. Vimeo Business has all of the prior benefits of Vimeo Pro, including VIP support. Whether you make videos for a living, run your own company, like yours truly, or simply want to amp up your video marketing, Video Business is here to help. They have more than 280 million creators.

• 2:01:59Tim Ferriss?

  And viewers worldwide and Vimeo Business makes it easier to share your videos with a global audience and connect with professional video makers to bring your stories to life. So if you need assistance, it's there. You can also upload up to five terabytes and store your videos in one secure place. You could add up to 10 team members to your account for easy collaboration and gather feedback with seamless review tools. You can add clickable calls to action and perhaps most interesting to me, capture email addresses directly in the player. This can help you generate leads and drive conversion for whatever you're trying to optimize, say for a newsletter or in fact, a sales page of some type. Video Business helps you optimize your videos by tracking viewer engagement and drop off. So you can

• 2:02:41Tim Ferriss?

  then modify your approach or creative moving forward and improve it. And it connects to Google Analytics for even more insights. So check it out. Go to vimeo.com/tim10 to save 10% on Vimeo Business. That's vimeo.com/tim10. This episode is brought to you by Audible, which I've used for years. I love audiobooks and I have two to recommend right off the bat. Number one is perhaps my favorite audiobook of all time, and that is The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. The only audiobook I've wanted to immediately listen to a second time as soon as I finished. It's amazing. You will thank me. The Graveyard Book. The second is Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge

• 2:03:26Tim Ferriss?

  impact on my life and formed the basis for a lot of what became The Four Hour Workweek. So, all you need to do to get your free 30 day trial is go to audible.com/tim and you can choose one of those two books, or you can choose from more great options than you can possibly imagine. So that could be a book, that could be a magazine, that could be a newspaper, it could be a class. It's that easy. Go to audible.com/tim. That's audible.com/tim and grab a book. Enjoy.