#138: How Seth Godin Manages His Life -- Rules, Principles, and Obsessions

I expected this episode to be amazing, and Seth 10x'd expectations. He's incredible. Seth Godin http://sethgodin.typepad.com/ (@thisissethsblog https://twitter.com/thisissethsblog) is the author of 17 bestselling books that have been translated into more than 35 languages. He writes about the way ideas spread, marketing, strategic quitting, leadership, and--most of all--challenging the status quo in all areas. His books include Linchpin http://www.amazon.com/Linchpin-Are-Indispensable-Seth-Godin/dp/1591844096/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1455109826&sr=8-3&keywords=seth+godin/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Tribes http://www.amazon.com/Tribes-We-Need-You-Lead/dp/1591842336/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=51WjbZ0neKL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR111%2C160_&refRID=1XWDG8C3PV7EJGWWR9WE/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, The Dip http://www.amazon.com/Dip-Little-Book-Teaches-Stick/dp/1591841666/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1455109826&sr=8-9&keywords=seth+godin/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Purple Cow http://www.amazon.com/Purple-Cow-New-Transform-Remarkable--/dp/1591843170/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1455109826&sr=8-6&keywords=seth+godinhttp://www.amazon.com/Tribes-We-Need-You-Lead/dp/1591842336/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=51WjbZ0neKL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR111%2C160_&refRID=1XWDG8C3PV7EJGWWR9WE/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, and What to do When it's Your Turn (And it's Always Your Turn) http://www.amazon.com/What-When-Your-Turn-Always/dp/1936719320/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455110001&sr=8-1&keywords=seth+godin+your+turn/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20. Seth has founded several companies, including Yoyodyne and Squidoo. His blog http://sethgodin.typepad.com/ (which you can find by typing "Seth" into Google) is one of the most popular in the world. In 2013, Godin was inducted into the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame. Recently, Godin turned the book publishing world on its ear by launching a series of four books via Kickstarter. The campaign reached its goal in just three hours and became the most successful book project in Kickstarter history. In this episode, we cover dozens of topics and stories, including some he's never discussed publicly before. Here's a small sample: A list of the audiobooks he listens to repeatedly, some once per month His morning routine, breakfast, dietary habits, and email processing Meditative practices Why he's fixated on and mastered coffee and vodka, despite the fact that he consumes neither Suggestions for going from "wantrepreneur" to entrepreneur How to determine if you're better off a "freelancer" or "entrepreneur," and the differences in his mind Why he has the most impressive cookbook collection our mutual chef friends have ever seen His rules for saying "no" to opportunities, how he thinks about public speaking, etc. His recipe for honey oatmeal vodka, and his favorite chocolates in the world Thoughts on improving how parents educate their children General philosophies and guidelines he uses for life management Enjoy! Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Audible http://audible.com/tim. I have used Audible http://audible.com/tim for years and I love audio books. I have 2 to recommend: The Graveyard Book http://www.audible.com/pd/Teens/The-Graveyard-Book-Full-Cast-Production-Audiobook/B00LXHQO22/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 by Neil Gaiman Vagabonding http://www.audible.com/pd/Travel-Adventure/Vagabonding-Audiobook/B00GCHWZHG/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 by Rolf Potts All you need to do to get your free audiobook and a free 30-day trial is go to Audible.com/tim http://audible.com/tim. Choose one of the above books, or choose between more than 180,000 audio programs. That could be a book, a newspaper, a magazine or even a class. It's that easy. Go to Audible.com/Tim http://audible.com/tim and get started today. Enjoy! This podcast is brought to you by 99Designs http://99designs.com/tim, the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. I have used them for years to create some amazing designs. When your business needs a logo, website design, business card, or anything you can imagine, check out 99Designs. I used them to rapid prototype the cover http://99designs.com/tim for The 4-Hour Body, and I've also had them help with display advertising and illustrations. If you want a more personalized approach, I recommend their 1-on-1 service http://99designs.com/tim. You get original designs from designers around the world. The best part? You provide your feedback, and then you end up with a product that you're happy with or your money back. Click this link http://www.99designs.com/tim and get a free $99 upgrade. Give it a test run.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  No, what is an appropriate time?

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Audible, which I have used for years. I love audiobooks and I have two to recommend right off the bat. Number one is perhaps my favorite audiobook of all time, and that is The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. The only audiobook I've wanted to immediately listen to a second time as soon as I finished. It's amazing. You will thank me. The Graveyard Book. The second is Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge impact on my life and formed the basis for a lot of what became The Four Hour Work Week. So, all you need to do to get your free audiobook and a free 30-day trial is go to audible.com/tim and you can choose one of those two books, The Graveyard Book, Vagabonding,

• 1:05Tim Ferriss?

  or more than 180,000 audio programs. So that could be a book, that could be a magazine, that could be a newspaper, it could be a class. It's that easy. Go to audible.com/tim. That's audible.com/tim and grab a book. Enjoy.

• 1:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is a great partner for creating and growing your business. It's a one-stop shop for all of your graphic design needs, whether that's a logo, website, business card, or anything else. I used 99designs to get book cover prototypes for The Four Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. I also use them for banner ads, illustrations, and other things. With 99designs, designers around the world compete to create the best design for you. You give feedback and then pick your favorite. You end up happy or you get your money back. It's very simple. You can check out a few of my own designs and those of yours, meaning Tim Ferriss Show listeners, at 99designs.com/tim.

• 2:06Tim Ferriss?

  And right now, my listeners, you guys, will get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. That's 99designs.com/tim. Check it out.

• 2:18Tim Ferriss?

  Hello ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, whether they are from chess, sports, military, entertainment, or otherwise. I tease out the routines, the habits, the favorite books, etc. that you can use. At least that's the goal. And this episode was a massive success because the guest, Seth Godin, 10xed my expectations. And I already expected him to be incredible, which of course, he was. Seth Godin is probably the best-known marketing mind in the world, the author of 17 bestselling books that have been translated into more than 35 languages. He writes about the way ideas spread, marketing of course, strategic quitting,

• 3:03Tim Ferriss?

  leadership, and most of all, challenging the status quo in all areas. And he does this personally in his own life in many different ways. His books include Linchpin, Tribes, The Dip, Purple Cow, Your Turn, and many others. He's also founded several companies, including Yo-Yo Dine and Squidoo. His blog, which is easy to find, just type Seth into Google, is one of the most popular in the world. He's been inducted into the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame. He's done all sorts of amazing things. And generally speaking, Seth doesn't get into his personal life, his personal habits. This interview is an exception. He tells a lot of stories he's never told before. We get into a lot of details

• 3:42Tim Ferriss?

  that he's never disclosed or shared before. And we cover a ton, and we had a blast. His favorite list of audiobooks that he listens to repeatedly, some of them once per month, his morning routine, breakfast, dietary habits, how he processes email, meditative practices, why he's fixated on, among other things, coffee and vodka, despite the fact that he consumes neither of them, how to go from wantrepreneur to entrepreneur, and it goes on and on. We really had a great time. I hope that you also have a great time listening to it. So, without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with none other than Seth Godin.

• 4:22Tim Ferriss?

  Seth, welcome to the show.

• 4:23Seth Godin?

  Tim, it's a pleasure. What a thrill to talk to you.

• 4:26Tim Ferriss?

  I have, over the years, just become more and more fascinated by your entire life. And I really admire, not only the work you've put out, but the entire life you've crafted for yourself. And since day one, I think my fans have been asking me to, not, "Will I?", but, "When will you have Seth on the podcast?" So it's really fun to set aside the time, and I really appreciate it. And we've also ended up having quite a few mutual friends. And I thought perhaps a fun place to start would be with something I only learned recently. And I guess the best way to approach this would be to just ask you to talk about, maybe your,

• 5:08Tim Ferriss?

  how do you prepare coffee or vodka?

• 5:14Seth Godin?

  Okay.

• 5:17Seth Godin?

  The coffee thing, we'll start there. I don't drink coffee. I wish I did. I need a vice. But I like making it. I like the act of trying, without being one of those people who's like measuring everything, because that's not my shtick, to have an intuitive sense of what makes a good pull of espresso. And I used to have a fancy Slayer machine, which is this super digital hunk of a device that did not belong in anyone's kitchen, particularly mine. So when it started acting up, I was able to sell it for a fair price and switched, in the completely opposite direction, to a Swiss-made, 17-year-old, totally manual machine. Like, you gotta pull a handle.

• 6:00Seth Godin?

  And I roast my own beans, which is key. Marco Arment taught me that. Roasting your own beans is more important than any other thing you can do if you want to make coffee. And I think there's a metaphor there. I know there's a metaphor there, which is, you can spend a lot of time trying to fix stuff later, but starting with the right raw materials makes a huge difference.

• 6:21Tim Ferriss?

  Garbage in, garbage out.

• 6:23Seth Godin?

  There you go.

• 6:23Tim Ferriss?

  And Marco, just for context for folks, that's Marco, and I don't know why I'm having this mental blank right now. Of course, Tumblr and now Overcast, which is a great podcast player that I use myself. Really fascinating guy in his own right. Why don't you drink coffee?

• 6:40Seth Godin?

  It hurts my stomach.

• 6:42Tim Ferriss?

  And-

• 6:42Seth Godin?

  Some people, here's the thing. Some people are gluten intolerant. I'm just intolerant.

• 6:48Tim Ferriss?

  And intolerant of, we're talking about food products.

• 6:52Seth Godin?

  Food, not humans. I'm really good with humans. And if you have to pick one, it's better to be tolerant of humans.

• 6:58Tim Ferriss?

  And the vodka, can we dig into that for a second?

• 7:02Seth Godin?

  So there's a place near my house called Stone Barns that is actually, used to be the Rockefeller's Summer House. And it's a nice restaurant. And at the bar, I don't drink either, but I'm told that at the bar, they serve honey oatmeal vodka. And I reverse engineered the recipe and have, it's not a still, but I make it in my basement. The recipe for those who are interested is you take a bottle of vodka, you don't want the super cheap stuff, but you don't want the expensive stuff because that's a little bit of a rip off. And you pour it over like a pound of just plain old oatmeal, uncooked, and half a jar of honey.

• 7:43Seth Godin?

  And you let it sit in the fridge for two weeks, stirring it now and then. And then you strain it out back into the original bottle and you're done.

• 7:53Tim Ferriss?

  The feedback, not feedback, it sounds so odd, it's like an employee interview or something. But when I was chatting with a couple of mutual friends, they said, what impresses me most, or one of the things that impressed me most about Seth is how well thought out and meticulous all of these various activities are. Is that something that started very, very early? Have you had that attention to detail for as long as you can remember? Or did some experience or a collection of people instill that in you?

• 8:23Seth Godin?

  Well, I think it's really important that we get the scale properly here. I am meticulous compared to an amateur house painter. I am a slob compared to you.

• 8:38Tim Ferriss?

  That's not true.

• 8:39Seth Godin?

  There is nothing about any of these tasks that could be described as meticulous. The, for example, the amount of oatmeal and honey varies wildly every single time. There's, you know, the coffee, probably a coffee snob would just turn up his nose at what I'm trying to do. I don't enjoy being meticulous. I enjoy sort of running roughshod over the status quo, learning what I can learn as I go, but no one has ever accused me of being.

• 9:13Tim Ferriss?

  All right, so putting that, that, uh, so derisive term aside, I think maybe the word that it would be more appropriate in my mind is thoughtful.

• 9:22Seth Godin?

  Yes, I'm very thoughtful. That's what I do, because I'm not good at sports.

• 9:28Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh, I, I just have to, I had, because these, these are things I just only recently learned. So I heard from a chef friend of ours, that you have the most impressive cookbook collection he has ever seen. How and why?

• 9:44Seth Godin?

  Well, okay, so before Amazon, I was a book packager. And what book packagers do for a living is come up with ideas for books and then make them. And I made 120 books in, uh, 10 years, a book a month. I made bestsellers, I made books that sold no copies, I made books on gardening, and I did trivia projects, I made, uh, books all over the map. And the way you do that is, A, you work with an expert. So my second book was Professor Herb Barnes on the Spot, Spot and Stain Removal Guide. And Herb was the world's expert on spot and stain removal. And the deal was, I got his notebook, he got half the money,

• 10:24Seth Godin?

  I did all the work. Um, and, but sometimes you don't have an expert with you. So what you do is you go to the bookstore and buy every book on the topic. And that's how my book collection grew to many thousands of books, because a book is a bargain, still, a screaming bargain. You pay 15, 20 bucks, and you have something that might change your life, you have something that reminds you 20 years later, sitting on the shelf, where you were when you read it. I love buying books. And so the cookbook thing started with my mom's copy of The Joy of Cooking. And every time I saw a cookbook that seemed like I would get three good insights out of it, I bought it, because it was a screaming

• 11:07Seth Godin?

  bargain. And then it grew and it grew, and then Amazon showed up, and one click shopping, and maybe you should buy this one next. And everyone's, you know, Growing up, there, you know, people were in my house with the doorbell would ring and everyone go, "Amazon's here," because every night the doorbell would ring. So that's where the cookbooks come from.

• 11:30Tim Ferriss?

  If you were, if you had someone over for dinner, and I've heard you're an incredible cook, and they said they wanted to learn how to cook, are there any particular books that you would recommend to them, or approaches for that matter?

• 11:44Seth Godin?

  Okay, so for just about anybody, the right answer is The Four Hour Chef.

• 11:50Tim Ferriss?

  Well, that wasn't, I intended to be a softball. I wasn't trying to set that up.

• 11:54Seth Godin?

  Because before that book, you had to weave together, you know, a 30-minute narrative to help somebody think about what cooking meant. My wife got me a Chris Schlesinger cooking class, and it was the only cooking class I'd ever taken. And in 20 minutes, I learned more about cooking than I think I've learned before or since.

• 12:17Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 12:18Seth Godin?

  Because Chris basically taught me how to think about what you were trying to do, and basically said, A, you should taste the food as you go, which a surprisingly small number of people do. And B, he said, "Salt and olive oil actually are cheating, and they're secret weapons, and they always work. You can even add them to ice cream. They just always work." So for me, part of the thoughtfulness is, I don't use a lot of salt, and I don't use a lot of oil, because I know I could, but it's cheating. And I like to think about cooking, again, as a metaphor for most of what you have been teaching, the

• 13:00Seth Godin?

  real lesson that you have been teaching, not the detail stuff, which is that it costs very little to find out.

• 13:11Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly.

• 13:12Seth Godin?

  And lots of people are afraid to find out. And that's why they're bad at cooking.

• 13:19Seth Godin?

  And the thing I love about cooking, because my projects like yours sometimes last for years, is that cooking lasts for an hour. And at the end, you have success or failure. And that cycle of, I have an idea at four, and we're sitting down at six, is one that I like very much. And I'll tell you a story that I don't think I've ever told out loud. I used to go shopping every single night, because I cooked for the family for many, many years, every single night, still mostly do. And I would stop at the Korean deli near my house. And it was a fish store, it was a flower shop, and it was a nice, fresh

• 14:01Seth Godin?

  vegetable place. And the man who owned it was a friend of mine. I used to bring him my books when they were translated into Korean, which was fun. And every single night, I would go to get the freshest stuff. Anyway, a giant evil drugstore chain bought the place and tore it down and put up an evil drugstore. And so I didn't know how to commemorate this loss. I ended up going online to one of those places that sell those brass architectural plaques. And I had a brass architectural plaque made honoring the place. And I affixed it to the side of the drugstore, where it has been for the last five years unmolested.

• 14:45Tim Ferriss?

  That's amazing. The tangible aspect of cooking, and this is something I completely agree with you on, compared to say, some of the more abstract or longer term projects, when you have something to show for your effort at the end, that is very tangible and tactile, is that part of the reason that you are as interested in audio equipment as you are, or appear to be? I've never been to your house, but so I hear that you have the most incredible sound system many people have ever seen. Is it, I mean, is there a,

• 15:28Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know what the details are, but is there an analog tactile drive behind that? Or what is the reason behind that?

• 15:36Seth Godin?

  Well, okay, so here's You know, the arc for me for many, many years has been railing against various industrial complexes. The TV industrial complex, the educational industrial complex, and this corporatization of just about everything. There is, I was in China eight weeks ago. There's a village outside of Shenzhen called Daofen, where they paint one-third of all the oil paintings in the world, over and over as fast as they can. These paintings aren't art, they're merely paintings. They are what happens if a giant, big-box store needs 10,000 oil paintings.

• 16:20Seth Godin?

  This is how they get them. What I discovered, I was at my friend Steve's house 20 years ago, and he had a big pile of this magazine called Stereophile. And Stereophile is handmade magazine about handmade audio equipment with people arguing with each other about this, that, and the other thing. Lot of arguing, and it was really fun to read. And, you know, I have no interest in baseball whatsoever, but this was like baseball in that you could track the careers of the various artisans, and you could be on one side or the other of these discussions. So for me, you know, I started by buying inexpensive used stuff. And there's a marketplace online called AudioGone, with no E at the end,

• 17:04Seth Godin?

  where you can find people who buy things new and sell them six months later in perfect condition. And I found that connecting to the artisan, understanding their point of view, finding the guy in, I think he's in Cleveland, who makes speaker wires by hand, finding the Paul McGowan in Boulder, Colorado, who is at the cutting edge of certain parts of the stereo, but on other ones, making them in Boulder with a team of people. It gives me pleasure, and that pleasure is a placebo that makes the music sound better. And the act of carefully choosing what you're going to listen to and knowing that the heritage and the terroir of the thing behind it,

• 17:49Seth Godin?

  it feels to me like a productive hobby that doesn't hurt anybody. So it's something I spend some time on.

• 17:56Tim Ferriss?

  How do you consume media? Or if, or what type of media do you consume? Is it, is, is the bulk of it still in book form? That is, a hard copy? Or, uh, how do you consume media?

• 18:10Seth Godin?

  Well, I'll start with, I don't watch any television that's live. And I feel strongly that most people shouldn't. Um, I think that one of the single best hacks, uh, is that after Seinfeld went off the air, that was it. And we ripped it out and it frees up hours and hours every day to explore media or content that's up to you as opposed to somebody else. Um, so, and I don't watch, uh, any TV at home, recorded or otherwise. But, so that leaves me with books and Kindle and music mostly. Uh, the thing with books is, uh, I really don't have the patience for literature. I didn't grow up with literature.

• 18:55Seth Godin?

  I was an engineer in college, uh, and I just never got the knack for decoding really dense fiction. Um, and so, on the other hand, like you, every day, the mailman brings unsolicited books in the mail. So, there's a, a very high throughput of reading books before most people get to see them. And, once you do it enough, you don't have to read the whole thing to get the joke. Uh, and every once in a while, it's good enough that you keep going. Uh, if I blurb it, it means I went all the way to the end. But, um, I love reading books on paper.

• 19:36Seth Godin?

  It's harder for me to read books on the Kindle when I'm not traveling because it doesn't have that Proustian, uh, reminder to me of what a book actually means. So, one of the things people in my generation are discovering is that people who are 20 or 30 are coming up viewing books as nothing but a reminder of, to drudgery of high school. And if a book is on an electronic device, it's one click away from email. And email is always better than reading a book if you're 25. Um, and so, I fear for the future of our medium because it's not, it doesn't have the, the place in our culture that it used to.

• 20:21Tim Ferriss?

  How do you determine, and if the book blurb, particular example is going to just create a deluge that you don't want, we don't have to address that one. But I've been very impressed in some of our conversations by the rules that you've established for yourself for saying yes or no to certain things. And perhaps we could start, if you're willing to talk about it, with speaking engagements. Like, how do you, because speaking engagements, as you've experienced, if you have a successful book, I went from kind of zero to 60 very quickly, unexpectedly, and said yes to everything. And it just turned into a parody of Up in the Air. I mean, I felt like a traveling salesman, or Jack Lemmon and Glengarry Glen

• 21:05Tim Ferriss?

  Ross. It was horrible. How do you, what are your rules for, for instance, speaking engagements? You know, for whatever you're, to whatever extent you're comfortable talking about them?

• 21:15Seth Godin?

  Oh, I'd be happy to. And then I'll scroll back a little bit and tell you why I have to have rules for things like that. For speaking engagements, I don't want to do more than 30 a year, because they are, at least for me, not additive to the joy of my day, except for the hour I'm on stage. So I am prepared to do an unlimited number of speaking engagements in zip code 10706. You know, Monday, I'm going to Carnegie Hall to talk for free to 25 music students who have, you know, devoted their lives to doing what they do. And it's

• 21:56Seth Godin?

  a privilege to do something like that. If I have to get on an airplane, it's a whole other project. So I think really hard about what impact am I trying to make? And will this help me move things forward, which is where this nests into. My mentor and late friend Zig Ziglar used to talk about the idea, he used to say,

• 22:22Seth Godin?

  I've never changed anyone's life with a speaking gig. But sometimes I do a speaking gig and they buy my cassettes. And if they buy my cassettes, I got a shot at changing their life. And for me, my mission and has been for a long time is to make a certain kind of change happen. I want to help people see the world differently. And if they choose to, make a different choice after they see the world differently. I want to help people connect to each other and to use that connection to make things better. And I don't want to be a TV personality. So the question is, how do I bring that teaching to people? And what I found is it's a very unique situation.

• 23:05Seth Godin?

  When you have 500 or 5,000 high-powered people in a room who didn't expect that you were going to be there. But now that you're there are eager to hear what you have to say. And they set aside their Twitter account and they set aside their preconceptions. And for 45 minutes or an hour, you have a screen that's 30 feet by 20 feet. And you have a microphone that's amplified. And maybe, just maybe, you can get under their skin. And if you do, maybe, just maybe, they go back to their office and, you know, get 10 copies of your turn and hand them out to their team. And then I can, you know, do that practice that I seek, which is to change the conversation.

• 23:50Seth Godin?

  So that's why I do it at all.

• 23:53Tim Ferriss?

  And the, uh, and the further away it is, the less likely you are to say yes. Is that, is that fair to say?

• 24:00Seth Godin?

  Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, what I did was, uh, having studied a little bit of economics is I changed, I changed the price. Uh, Los Angeles costs three times as much as New York. And if you don't think that's fair, then don't make me go to Los Angeles.

• 24:15Tim Ferriss?

  And you said you were going to elaborate on why you need rules and maybe you just did. Maybe that was the, the, the answer, but.

• 24:23Seth Godin?

  Well, cause the phone, you know, the phone rings, right? And lots of people want a thing. And if it doesn't align with the thing that is your mission and you say yes, then now it's their mission. And there's nothing wrong with being a wandering generality instead of a meaningful specific. But don't expect to make the change you seek to make if that's what you do. That, that, you know, the thing is, and Derek, I thought your interview with Derek was one of the best ones you've ever done.

• 24:52Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks. Derek makes it quite easy. Derek Sivers is amazing.

• 24:57Seth Godin?

  I adore him and he talked about offense versus defense. And if you think hard about one's life, most people spend most of their time on defense in reactive mode.

• 25:11Tim Ferriss?

  Definitely.

• 25:12Seth Godin?

  Playing with the cards they got instead of moving to a different table with different cards. Instead of seeking to change other people, they are willing to be changed. And part of the arc of what I'm trying to teach is everyone who can hear this has more power than they think they do. And the question is, what are you going to do with that power? Because it comes with responsibility right out of Spider-Man, but that responsibility is you're going to make change happen or you're going to ignore it. And if you make change happen, that's on you.

• 25:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I was just pausing as I was thinking of how well anyone who is listening to this podcast, relative to the vast majority of people on the planet, how well they are doing. For whatever reason, I was just bridging the gap between our little text exchange before the call where I asked you if you were ready. And you said, born ready, not actually. I was born naked and afraid and unable to read, unable to type. If you, if you look at that progression, making it from there to where we are collectively, everyone, uh, listening to this podcast or being on it. It's, it's, it's pretty astonishing.

• 26:26Seth Godin?

  The. Can I just interrupt you for a second?

• 26:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, sir.

• 26:30Seth Godin?

  I think that's part of the secret plan of Tim Ferriss, which is that when you came out of the gate, it was or felt like here are some techniques and some shortcuts and it was seen as a, you know, an early version of the life hacking thing. But I don't think that's what you're really doing. I think what you are really doing is saying to people, all right, now that you are so much more fit in every area mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, what are you going to do with it? And when you think about the Seneca stuff and the podcast, that's where you've been going for a long time.

• 27:11Seth Godin?

  And I, for one, just wanted to call you out and applaud you on it because it's not the easy path. It's the path that's important and you have been consistent and shown up and done the work.

• 27:22Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you. That means, that means a lot to me. You're correct. The tactics get people in the door, so to speak, but then the question is, all right, once you have more of this finite resource called time and you've sharpened the axe in these various areas, where do you apply your effort? And, you know, I would, this is, this is maybe going to turn into a therapy session for myself, but I've found myself, I mean, we were just talking about books and their place in culture, feeling like I'm in a transition point. You've been so consistent and so present for so many people for so long, your readers,

• 28:05Tim Ferriss?

  et cetera. How do you navigate big transitions in your own life? And that's a very general question, but for instance, I find my, the reason the podcast started is because I was burned out on books. It was after The Four Hour Chef, 670 some odd pages. I just felt so battle weary and, and rundown by publishing that I wanted to take a break. And the podcast was a side project that then became its own entire thing altogether. But when you find yourself wondering maybe what to do next, I mean, how do you navigate some of those larger transitions? And I mean, if you have any examples that come to mind.

• 28:47Seth Godin?

  All right, well, the good news is you did exactly the right thing, and I applaud it. It's not easy to do that, because it means going from a place where by outside measures you are about to succeed again, to a place where by outside measures you might not. And hence the motto, "This might not work." And so on a good day, my story to myself is, "This might not work." That's my job, to do something that might not work. And the number of projects I've done, big and small, exceeds most people's, and the number of failures I have dramatically exceeds most people's, and I'm super proud of that.

• 29:26Seth Godin?

  More proud of the failures than the successes, because it's about this mantra of, "Is this generous? Is this going to connect? Is this going to change people for the better? Is it worth trying? If it meets those criteria, and I can cajole myself into doing it, then I ought to, right? And the transitions aren't easy. I regularly spend months telling people that I'm unemployed and in between projects. And I regularly publicly quit the book business, which I did maybe for the last time, a year, two years ago, more than two years ago. Your Turn came out a year ago, November, so what is that, 15 months ago?

• 30:11Seth Godin?

  And I haven't written one word of a book since then. What was the word? No, I haven't written- Oh, I thought you said I've written one word of a book, sorry. This hurt you. And the reason is, the people who I seek to serve don't want me to write another book. They want me to do something else instead. And they, people come up to me, as they might come up to you, and say, "You should be really proud of me, I finished your book." You know, no one goes up to Steven Spielberg and says, "You should be pretty proud of me, I finished all of ET, I made it to the end of ET."

• 30:48Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 30:49Seth Godin?

  And so, you know, with your turn, I designed it, I illustrated it myself, I made it so that people would happily share it with each other. Because when you share a book, sometimes you feel a little guilty because someone might feel guilty for not finishing all 600 pages. But when you share maybe a podcast or a blog post or an illustrated book, it makes you feel closer to that person in the sense that you're both gonna enjoy this journey.

• 31:18Tim Ferriss?

  And just to peek behind the curtain a little bit with some of your decisions, how did you decide, or what is the thinking behind daily blog versus, say, a longer blog post once a week or at some other frequency?

• 31:36Seth Godin?

  So the daily blog evolved, and it's one of the top five career decisions I've ever made in terms of having a practice that resonates with the people who I needed to resonate with, that I can do forever and have been doing for more than eight years now, and that leaves a trail behind. I don't need anyone's permission, I don't need to go out and promote it, I don't use any analytics, I don't have comments, it's just, this is what I noticed today and I thought I'd share it with you. And for a while, it was an intermittent blog, and then it was a

• 32:16Seth Godin?

  five times a day blog. And that, you know, I do write five posts a day, I just don't publish five posts a day. But it became clear that I could get the appropriate amount of mind space in that period of time. Now, I'll tell you, I got, I've gotten this note maybe eight times in the last couple of years, it's enraging. And the note says, "I wish you wouldn't post every day. I can't read that fast. Please post fewer." And the thing is, it's just so selfish, because all you gotta do is just skip some of them. But these people don't want other people to be reading the post if they can't read it.

• 33:01Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man. And the, uh, when you say you wrote or you write five posts a day, you just don't publish five, i- is that because you are writing them in advance to publish all of them later? Or you write five and discard four and keep the best one or something else?

• 33:18Seth Godin?

  There is no ritual. They're just, I just notice things, I write them down, I look at them, I look at the post before it is next in the queue, I say, could I do better than that? I try a different one. So it just averages out. I mean, it's not like there is this method. I have no method.

• 33:36Tim Ferriss?

  Do you draft by hand in Word in a particular program?

• 33:42Seth Godin?

  I type right into TypePad.

• 33:44Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 33:44Seth Godin?

  When I, when I'm in, so I learned this from Chip Conley. Have you had Chip on the show?

• 33:49Tim Ferriss?

  I haven't, but I love Chip. He's a great guy.

• 33:51Seth Godin?

  Great guy. So Chip and I went to business school together and, um, he was the, uh, third youngest person in the class and I was the second youngest person in the class. So he, he got five of us together and every Tuesday night, we met in the anthropology department for four hours. And we brainstormed more than 5,000 business ideas over the course of the first year of business school. It was magnificent. It wasn't official, it wasn't sanctioned, it was just Chip said, let's do this and we did. And he picked the anthropology department because he knew someone there and could get the conference room. And he said, this is the only place we will ever do this.

• 34:31Seth Godin?

  And the reason is when you walk into this room, you will associate this room with what we do here. That's all. And I feel the same way about my blog. If I am in the TypePad editor, I know exactly what my brain needs to feel like and then the writing happens.

• 34:51Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, uh, what is your writing warm-up?

• 34:55Tim Ferriss?

  Look like and when do you typically write? One of my fans said that you'd at some point, this could be a misquote, but said that you had an elaborate or extreme sort of mental warm up for writing. But what is, what is the, what is your, do you write in the mornings? Or what time do you typically write?

• 35:12Seth Godin?

  Okay, so now I need to tell you about Stephen King's pencil.

• 35:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, please.

• 35:16Seth Godin?

  Because I feel very strongly about this. Stephen King often goes to writers conferences, and there'll be this question and that question and the next question. And inevitably, someone raises their hand and says, Stephen King, you're one of the most successful revered writers of your generation. What kind of pencil do you use?

• 35:38Seth Godin?

  And I won't go there. It doesn't matter. It's a way to hide. It's not interesting to me to talk about how I do it, because there's no correlation that I have ever encountered between how writers write and how good their work is. So you should just move on because it doesn't matter.

• 35:57Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So I will, let me, I'll make a confession then, which is, I've been given certain types. When I feel blocked, which does happen with writing, I take a long time to get to the point where I feel like I have the balls in the air well enough to put pieces together. It just takes me a long time to synthesize, but not unlike some coders, I guess. But the point I was going to make is that I went to a conversation between Poe Bronson, a writer, and another gent, I'm blanking on his name. And I asked Poe during a Q and A, what he did when he felt blocked or couldn't figure out what to do next in writing. And he said, write what makes you angry. Write about what makes

• 36:37Tim Ferriss?

  you angry. And I found that very helpful. It was a very helpful way to at least get the hand or the brain moving to break the ice.

• 36:48Seth Godin?

  I totally agree. That's not the question. If you, if you said to Poe Bronson, how do you write these books that are remarkable and thoughtful and generous? I don't think his answer is, every morning I get as angry as I can and then I type.

• 37:02Tim Ferriss?

  Agreed, agreed.

• 37:02Seth Godin?

  Right? So you and I could list 25 tricks that help us get past the resistance and start the flow of writing. But that's different than saying, I need to do it like those other people do it.

• 37:17Tim Ferriss?

  Agreed, agreed. I guess the in the buffet of things that have been helpful along those lines, if, if for whatever reason, didn't get a good night's sleep, feeling off, you sit down to write.

• 37:31Seth Godin?

  Right. This I got, this is easy.

• 37:33Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 37:33Seth Godin?

  The answer to this question is write, write poorly, continue writing poorly, write poorly until it's not bad anymore. And then you'll have something you can use. That people who have trouble coming up with good ideas, if they're telling you the truth, will tell you they don't have very many bad ideas. But people who have plenty of good ideas, if they're telling you the truth, will say they have even more bad ideas. So the goal isn't to get good ideas, the goal is to get bad ideas. Because once you get enough bad ideas, then some good ones have to show up.

• 38:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's, I remember, this brings to mind a, I have a photo of it somewhere, but all of the title, that all of the brainstorm titles for the Four Hour Work Week that were not the Four Hour Work Week, I mean, for, for those people who think the Four Hour Work Week sounds like a bad infomercial product, I mean, you should have seen some of the, some of the, the outcasts on this page, they were horrible. I mean, I can't even, I, it's atrocious just to, to even look back at some of them, but the, the blog and the daily blog says one of your top five business decisions. What are some of the other top business decisions that you've made?

• 38:50Seth Godin?

  Okay, so we'll go way back. And I would say, the first one, which is useful to everybody, is sell something that people want to buy. My friend Lynn is a brilliant, brilliant thinker and designer. And for years, she was in the business of designing toys and soft goods for moms with toddlers. And every toy company in America was mean to her, rejected her, had nothing to do with her. And I said, Lynn, it's simple. Toy companies don't like toy designers. They're not organized to do business with toy designers. They're not hoping toy designers will come to them. I said, come with me into the book business, because every day.

• 39:33Seth Godin?

  There are underpaid, really smart people in the book business who wake up waiting for the next great idea to come across their desk. They are eager to buy what you have to sell. And within two months, she did the decks of cards, the 52 decks, and sold more than five million decks of cards.

• 39:53Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 39:54Seth Godin?

  And that's because they appreciated her. So if you think about how hard it is to push a business uphill, particularly when you're just getting started, one answer is to say, why don't you just start a different business? A business you can push downhill?

• 40:09Tim Ferriss?

  This is a, this is a good lesson. Yeah, sometimes I, there's a fetishizing of the, the sort of rolling of the stone like Sisyphus, uh, am I getting that right?

• 40:21Seth Godin?

  Yes.

• 40:22Tim Ferriss?

  Sisyphus. And, uh, you know, in Silicon Valley, there's just like fetishizing of it, uh, of the pain. And I'm like, maybe your model's just too difficult. Maybe you should choose a different business. Uh, okay, that is a good lesson. Uh, any other?

• 40:38Seth Godin?

  Well, so then the, the other lesson, it happens all the time, which is knowing when I'm wrong is a useful skill. And lots of people who do good work have trouble knowing when they haven't done good work and they think they should stick with it. Other people have done good work, don't think they have, and they pivot too soon. So figuring that moment out. 1994, I'm running one of the first internet companies. We invented commercial email. And Mark Hirst shows me this thing called the World Wide Web. And I say, that's stupid.

• 41:21Seth Godin?

  It's just like Prodigy, except it's slower and there's nobody to pay us money.

• 41:28Seth Godin?

  And for six months, I persisted in pointing out that the World Wide Web made no sense whatsoever. And I then, one day, just woke up and I said, "Wait a minute, let me look at that again." And we completely changed how we decided we were going to do our business. The same thing is true with the cover of All Marketers Are Liars, because the cover and the title were super clever and wrong. It was not a matter of me persisting and persuading people that they needed to get the joke. It was merely a matter of persuading the publisher, "We should make the paperback have a different cover and a different title."

• 42:11Seth Godin?

  That if you're gonna try a lot of things, you're gonna fail a lot. And figuring out the difference between the failures of your judgment versus the failures of not persisting long enough is a useful skill. And I'm still not great at it, but I'm better at it than I was.

• 42:28Tim Ferriss?

  You've interacted with many more entrepreneurs than I have, I would say, at this point. One of the questions that I get constantly that you might have a better answer for, because I don't have a great answer for it right now, is, "When do I know? How do I discern between an idea that I should keep persisting with despite many, many, many, many rejections versus a bad idea that I should abandon that is getting the same type of rejection, but that I'm equally enthusiastic about?" And that's a very wordy way to put it, but I get some... I get some version of that question all the time. How do you, how would you answer that?

• 43:10Seth Godin?

  Well, first, we have to scroll back. There's a difference between freelancers and entrepreneurs. Most people who are independent are freelancers. They get paid when they work. They do good work and get paid for it. A few people are entrepreneurs, building a business bigger than themselves, a business that makes them money when they sleep, a business where they don't actually do the work that the customer is buying, and a business that they can sell one day. So, you know, we look at Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison doesn't code at Oracle. Larry Ellison doesn't make most of the sales calls. What does Larry Ellison do, actually? His job is to think about something that needs to be done and hire someone else to do it, over and over again, building something bigger than himself.

• 43:56Seth Godin?

  So the first thing I would say to the person who's confused is, well, are you an entrepreneur or a freelancer? If you're an entrepreneur, then you have signed up for a series of choices and challenges. And again, start with selling something people want to buy. There's no reason to try to invent a need when there are so many needs and wants that are unfilled. Right? So people didn't wake up 10 years ago and say, I need an Uber. But they did wake up 10 years ago and say, I need an easy, inexpensive way to get from A to B.

• 44:35Tim Ferriss?

  Correct.

• 44:36Seth Godin?

  Once you could go to someone and say, I have that, people would say, I want that. But if you're just saying, I'm really clever, I know what you should want, and when you tell people what it is, they don't want it, you're either talking to the wrong people or you made the wrong thing. So the blog post I point people to the most is called First 10. And it is a simple theory of marketing that says, tell 10 people, show 10 people, share it with 10 people, 10 people who already trust you and already like you. If they don't tell anybody else, it's not that good and you should start over. And if they do tell other people, you're on your way.

• 45:18Tim Ferriss?

  And for those people who hear your description of entrepreneur and they say, that's what I want, that is what I want, I want to be an entrepreneur, they currently have nine-to-five job or maybe more, maybe it's an 80 to 100 hour a week management consultant job, who knows? This is also a fan question and they desperately want to go from wantrepreneur to entrepreneur. The specific question was, if I had a sticky note to put on my computer to help me make that jump, what would it say? Do you have any thoughts? And you can rephrase the question if you'd like or rip it to shreds.

• 45:55Seth Godin?

  Well, let's pick two different kinds of entrepreneurs. One kind of entrepreneur, you say, whose need am I satisfying today? And can I assemble assets where I satisfy it in a defensible way so I don't have to be the cheapest?

• 46:13Seth Godin?

  And by that, I mean, and I've written about this, snow shoveling, right? We know that there's a need for snow shoveling. We know that if you spend time and effort, you can arrange a team of 10 snow shovellers who don't have the initiative you have, and you can use existing, almost free, technology to assign the snow shovellers to where they need to go. And you're not going to win because you're the cheapest snow shoveling company. You're going to win because you can get to customers faster and better and more efficiently. That's a very straightforward form of entrepreneurship. It is available to everyone without an enormous amount of talent or artistic creativity required.

• 46:56Seth Godin?

  Because you just make a list of the thousand things around you that people need and want. You make a list of the kinds of assets and connections you can build, and you go do it, and you do it, and you do it, and you do it until you're big enough. The other kind, to quote Michael Schreeg here, is to say, "The purpose of my business is to change people, to change them from something into something else." And this is the kind of business that we remember generations later. So Harley-Davidson, my favorite example, changed disrespected, disconnected outsiders into respected family members, insiders. That's what you get when you pay $12,000 for a motorcycle.

• 47:40Seth Godin?

  Because if all you want is transport, buy a Suzuki. And the way to think about it is, no one gets a Suzuki tattoo.

• 47:50Seth Godin?

  You can decide that you want to be tattoo-worthy, that you want to change a population in a way that makes you indispensable. That kind of entrepreneurship requires insight at a different level. There's nothing unattainable about it. I encourage people to go do it, but know that it is a higher-stakes game than being the person who applies systems thinking to an existing, clear need.

• 48:22Tim Ferriss?

  This is, this is gonna seem like-

• 48:23Seth Godin?

  That's a big post-it, by the way.

• 48:25Tim Ferriss?

  That is a big post-it. Or, or maybe, are there any checkboxes that people could use to determine if they should not become an entrepreneur? Or, because if you, if you look at the, let's just say, the narrative on the covers of business magazines, it seems like, to the, the untrained eye perhaps, that, or the trained eye for that matter, that everyone is being encouraged to become an entrepreneur and start their own company.

• 48:58Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm curious to hear if, if you, in what cases do you actively discourage people from starting their own company?

• 49:08Seth Godin?

  The first thing I would say is, the discerning reader of business magazines differentiates between the articles who are written for people who are voyeurs and the articles that are written for you. And 98% of the covers aren't written for you. You should skip those. You should skip the articles that lionize people without actually explaining anything about them, other than they are different and better than you.

• 49:42Seth Godin?

  That said, you know, we've gone this far without talking about Steve Pressfield, the resistance runs deep, and the same thing that causes writer's block is what causes entrepreneurial block.

• 49:55Tim Ferriss?

  And just for people listening, Stephen Pressfield, The War of Art, and, among other books, very, very worth reading.

• 50:03Seth Godin?

  Right. The War of Art is one of those books, at least for me, when I finally was exposed to it, I said, "Why wasn't I informed? Why did it take this long for this book to land on my desk?" There aren't very many books I could say like that. Most of my books don't fall into that category. Your books don't, like you, they're, they're in the world. You find our books. Steve's book was hidden in some little corner and I'm super glad I found it. I tracked him down. I published the sequel called Do The Work. And now he's the publisher of that book. But reading The War of Art is, is really essential, painful and essential. Anyway, people get entrepreneurial block for only one reason. It is not because they are not qualified. It is not because they are not passionate. It is because they are afraid.

• 50:47Seth Godin?

  And you need to be clear with yourself about what you are afraid of, why you are afraid, and whether you care enough to dance with that fear because it will never go away.

• 51:00Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds a lot like, I mean, there's so many parallels, of course, with the stoicism, meditation, you know, not trying to suffocate these so-called negative emotions because they're going to be constant companions. So you have to learn how to navigate and befriend them, or at least accept them in a way. But if we look at fear, I remember, I think it was in The Four Hour Body, I said that, you know, the fears of modern man can be boiled down to two things, getting fat and too much email. I think that if we look at email, you are very well-known for responding extremely quickly to many, many people who ping you. And this, we can, I can get more specific if it's helpful, but how do you process email?

• 51:47Seth Godin?

  All right. Let's also point out, for those of you who are considering sending me an email, that according to the Surgeon General, one out of every 300 people who send me an email spontaneously burst into flame.

• 52:02Tim Ferriss?

  This is true.

• 52:02Seth Godin?

  So you have to decide if it's worth the risk.

• 52:07Seth Godin?

  Okay, so it's, the email thing is a real problem for me. And I don't have a way out. And I'm not sure I want a way out because if I wanted one, I would probably find one. I decided a very long time ago, as the author of Permission Marketing, a book about anticipated personal and relevant messages to people who want to get them, that this medium was going to be a place I was going to spend a lot of time in. And if someone cared enough to send me a generous, non-anonymous email, I could certainly try to spend the time to write back. And it worked for a really long time. And for someone with ADD like mine, it's a thrill

• 52:51Seth Godin?

  because every time you look over on your computer, there's something that looks like productive work just waiting to be done. But at the end of the day, if all you've done is answer email, unless you work in Help Scout or some tech support job, it's probable you haven't created an enormous amount of value. And I need to work ever harder at disciplining myself to not live in my email box because I'm really good at it. It makes people happy, but it's not part of the change I'm trying to make. I don't want to say to people, "Oh, you were the last one. The person after you doesn't get a response." I don't want to hire someone to answer my email

• 53:36Seth Godin?

  because every word I have ever written has been written by me. And so I soldier on. But I say to people like you who have a platform, "Please ask people to do the world a favor and write to Tim instead of me."

• 53:53Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I've been, yeah, I've thrown myself to the wolves in a way with email just because I tend not to respond to many. But it's in a world where many, many folks, and I'd be curious to hear how you handle this particular instance, make unsolicited introductions. So people you know who should probably know better, and maybe you've only met them three or four times, but somehow they have your email address, email you and say...

• 54:23Tim Ferriss?

  Hi Seth, I'd love for you to meet Doug so and so, CEO of such and such, who's blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, and he wanted to connect because of this, this, and this. I'm sure you guys will get along. Do you have a coping mechanism for that if you experience it?

• 54:40Seth Godin?

  Well, okay, so this is a problem you have created largely for yourself.

• 54:44Tim Ferriss?

  Like most of my problems, I'm sure.

• 54:45Seth Godin?

  Because I don't invest in any companies. I don't take pitches for my blog, and I don't go to meetings. So it's easy for me to generously write back to someone and say, I don't invest, I don't take pitches, and I don't go to meetings. How can I help you? Because most of the time, they want one of those three things. And so if they're being honest, we're now done.

• 55:13Tim Ferriss?

  And if you get, do you then therefore, something like, I mean, Rick Rubin is very similar in this way, the music producer, do you have people always come to you if you want to meet them, or it is deemed worth your time? Or are there exceptions? And if so, how do you decide what makes the cut?

• 55:32Seth Godin?

  So going to LA to have lunch with Rick is on my list. I haven't even begun to schedule it because the thought of flying somewhere not to do my speaking work is really anathema. But one day, hi Rick, I'm gonna come have lunch with you. One of the things that happens if you live 40 minutes from the world's greatest city is that people in New York don't want to make the last 40 minutes. So I end up, if I'm meeting someone, but I don't go to meetings, I usually end up in New York City.

• 56:04Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. What other, what other things do you categorically, and I'm not quite done with the email, we're gonna maybe come back to that, but what other activities do you categorically say no to?

• 56:14Seth Godin?

  Cilantro, cilantro. I hate cilantro.

• 56:18Tim Ferriss?

  Tastes like soap to you?

• 56:19Seth Godin?

  This is well-known. The Gastropod podcasted an entire episode about me and my cilantro aversion.

• 56:30Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, so no cilantro. So there are a couple of cuisines that would be very challenging to navigate.

• 56:34Seth Godin?

  It's true.

• 56:36Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, Vietnamese noodles, very tough. But the part of the reason I ask is that you see, you have had just tremendous longevity as a writer and as a thinker, as a speaker. There are many people who have one or two successful books, get inundated with various opportunities, good, bad, in between, say yes, become very scattered, flame out, become irrelevant somehow, and the wider world never hears from them or sees their gifts again. And I think in part it's because, as I did with speaking engagements early on, I was so flattered that anyone would pay me anything to speak and just amazed

• 57:18Tim Ferriss?

  at these sums that seemed just insane at the time, that I said yes to everything and it made my life quite miserable. And people do that with many, many different things, right? The investing, which is why I'm not taking any investing meetings or investing in any startups anymore at this point. I just realized I had to say no to all of it. I couldn't say yes to just the top 1% because that still meant that I had to filter the other 99%.

• 57:41Seth Godin?

  Bingo. Bingo. Yes. Exactly right. This is about cognitive load and it's about the dip and it's about seeking to be a crafts person. So the reason I don't use Twitter is I saw Twitter early, which is unusual for me, and I said, "Wow, I could do this and have a lot of followers." And then I said, "Well, what would that mean? A, it would mean less time spent writing my blog. B, it would mean exposing myself to anonymous comments from people who want me to pay attention to them." Will either of those two things make me better at the things I want to be good at?

• 58:20Seth Godin?

  No. Will it be a thrill in the sense that there'll be a little fearful edge to it every time I interact? Yes. But I have conservation of fear and I have to be really careful because if I'm busy sorting through more stuff, the cognitive load goes up and I can't do what Neil Gaiman does. Like Neil famously has said that...

• 58:45Seth Godin?

  The way he writes a book is he makes himself extremely bored. And if he's bored enough, a book's gonna come out. Because it's, he needs to entertain himself. Well, the problem with, most people don't understand about social media. Social media wasn't invented to make you better. It was invented to make the companies money. And you are an employee of the company and you are the product that they sell. And they have put you in a little hamster wheel and they throw little treats in now and then. But you gotta decide, what's the impact you're trying to make? And this still comes back to the fear thing. And one of the biggest misunderstandings

• 59:28Seth Godin?

  of the people who are into that whole quantified self thing is they are confusing quantifying the self with dancing with the fear. And they're completely different things to do in a given day. That one is Taylorism, it's scientific management, it's productivity. It's, we need to move these widgets from one place to another, what's the most efficient way? And I'm glad we got good at industry, cuz it makes our lives way more rich, right? But our economy, our world, and our soul aren't fulfilled by that. They're fulfilled by people who do something that has never been done before.

• 1:00:13Seth Godin?

  And if it's never been done before, you can't quantify it, because it's never been done before. And so to be good at it, doesn't mean you quantify your way to it. To be good at it means you clear the decks so that all that's left is you and the muse. You and the fear, you and the change you wanna make in the world. I can't think of something that's more productive for the kind of people who are lucky enough and blessed enough to be rich enough to be listening to this, to focus their energy on. We don't need folks like that to be, to go from 90 words per minute to 105 words per minute when they type. It's not a factor.

• 1:00:56Seth Godin?

  What we need is for them to type something that's worth reading.

• 1:01:01Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so glad you brought up Neil Gaiman. He's one of my favorite writers, favorite people out there. Someday I will get him on the podcast. It will happen eventually. But the, I guess it's "Make Good Art," is that his commencement speech?

• 1:01:14Seth Godin?

  Yes.

• 1:01:14Tim Ferriss?

  That's just such an incredible message. I needed that at a particular point. It just happened to cross, you know, come across the transom. I encourage everybody to listen to it. Do you think if you were coming off of, let's just say, your first bestseller, and you're thrust into the limelight, would you choose to, would you choose again to do the blog and to do it the way you're doing it? Or do you think you would choose different tools?

• 1:01:45Seth Godin?

  Well, the first thing I would say is everyone should blog, even if it's not under their own name, every single day. If you are in public making predictions and noticing things, your life gets better. Because you will find a discipline that can't help but benefit you. If you want to do it in a diary, that's fine. But the problem with diaries is because they're private, you can start hiding. In public, in this blog, there it is. Six weeks ago, you said this. 12 weeks ago, you said that. Are you able every day to say one thing that's new that you're willing to stand behind? I think that's just a huge, wonderful practice. But that wasn't your question. Your question was trust and attention.

• 1:02:30Seth Godin?

  Because those are the two things that are scarce in an economy, where things that used to be scarce, not so much anymore. And attention is, as you have built your arc around, is scarce because we're not making any more of it. And there are ever more tools to interrupt ever more people. But interrupting people well is not easy. And it doesn't really scale. So first thing we have to do is earn attention. And if we earn attention, over time, we gain trust. So if someone says, "Tim Ferriss is coming to give a speech tomorrow," the other person doesn't say, "Tell me exactly what he's going to say, and then I'll decide if

• 1:03:15Seth Godin?

  I want to come." They say, "Oh, Tim Ferriss? I trust him. I'll come." That's what we seek to build. So the book industry is magical because the book industry, 500 years of the book industry is someone at a publisher picked you, said to their readers, "I care enough about this idea that I'll spend X number of dollars to bring it to you." The bookstore said, this is before there was infinite shelf space, "There are a lot of books we could sell you, but we picked this one because the publisher is so excited." And then by the time the reader touches it, it's a trustworthy object. Now that's being hacked and hacked and hacked some more. You can buy your way into the New York

• 1:03:56Seth Godin?

  Times bestseller list for not much money. You can self-publish a book that looks like a real book. You can put, anyone can publish for the Kindle, therefore, anyone does. So we're stripping away the trust building element of the book industry. But if your book did work and people encountered it and now they trust you, then the job is to find a social media platform, there isn't one right answer, where you can continue to connect people, continue to tell stories. So you earn more trust, more permission, which gets you more attention, which gets you more trust, which lets you make the change you want to make in the universe.

• 1:04:35Tim Ferriss?

  What opportunities were you offered, doesn't have to be specific, that you're glad you turned down? Are there any, are there any particular examples that come to mind? And if not, I can, I can move on. But I'm just curious if there are any opportunities that you've turned down. For me, for instance, one of them would be like every reality TV show invite I've ever had. I'm thrilled and I was, I was extremely tempted early on. But in retrospect, extremely happy I said no to all of that.

• 1:05:06Seth Godin?

  Yes, that's, this is a great point. TV runs deep in our culture. So they wanted me to be on that super famous one and then that other one. And I never hesitated in saying no because that's the moment when you decide who you want to be. Right? And so I paid extra careful attention to the question and extra careful attention to my answer. And it resonated. I would say the biggest shift, which is

• 1:05:37Seth Godin?

  For Silicon Valley people, hard to get your arms around because there's a game being played there and it's just a game I've opted out of is when I was at Yahoo during the Renaissance in 1999, Bill Gross, who's a super nice guy, came to me and asked me to be head of marketing for the company he was building. It had Steven Spielberg on the board. It was teed up to be, you know, the seventh next IPO and there were a billion dollars in stock options on the table. And I said to myself, well, if I say yes to this, I've decided what I do for the rest of

• 1:06:17Seth Godin?

  my life, which is say yes to the next one because I don't need to say yes to this to buy cilantro and vodka. Why would I say yes? It's because I like the game. And I didn't say yes. And even though the billion dollars in stock options never came around, I think I'd be even more proud of it if they had because the money is a story. Once you have enough for beans and rice and taking care of your family and a few other things, money is a story. And you can tell yourself any story you want about money. And it's better to tell yourself a story about money than you can happily live with.

• 1:06:57Tim Ferriss?

  Could you elaborate on that a little bit? What is, what is your story about money? Is it what you just said? Because this is a really important point. It's something I've been trying to mull over and in the last year or so in particular.

• 1:07:11Seth Godin?

  Well, let me start with the marketing story about money, which is take a $10 bill and go to the bus station and walk up to someone and say, I'll sell you this $10 bill for a dollar. And you should actually do this. No one will buy it from you. And there are a few reasons for this. The first reason is no one goes to the bus station hoping to do a financial transaction. The second one is only an insane person would try to sell you a real $10 bill for a dollar and dealing with insane people is tricky. So it must not be a real $10 bill. You should just walk away. Now, let's try a different

• 1:07:53Seth Godin?

  thing. Put a $10 bill in your neighbor's mailbox when he's not home and run away. Do it the next day. Do it the third day. On the fourth day, ring your neighbor's doorbell and say, I'm the guy who left three $10 bills in your mailbox. Here's another one. You want to buy it for a dollar? You'll sell it. Because your neighbor knows you're crazy, but you're crazy in a very particular way. And you've earned the trust that it's a real $10 bill, right? So, we assume that $10 bills are worth $10, but no, it's a mutual belief. And if the belief isn't present, they're worth nothing. Now, we get to our internal narrative about

• 1:08:36Seth Godin?

  money. Is money that number, it's not even pieces of paper anymore, it's a number on a screen, is that a reflection of your worth as a human? Right? One of the things that Derek said on your podcast that I sort of disagree with is that being rich is a signal, a symbol, that you've created a lot of value for a lot of people. I think lots of times that's just actually not true. And there are lots of ways to create value for people, and most of them do not involve money. So what we have to decide, once we're okay, once we're not living on $3 a day, once we have a roof, once we have healthcare, is

• 1:09:19Seth Godin?

  we have to decide how much more money and what am I going to trade for it? Because we always trade something for it, unless we're fortunate enough that the very thing we want to do is the thing that also gives us our maximum income. And I don't think that merely because some blog decides that people with big valuations are doing better, that doesn't mean you should listen to them.

• 1:09:45Tim Ferriss?

  So when you think of the word, if you even think of this word, but if, when you hear the word "successful," who's the first person who comes to mind for you and why?

• 1:09:58Seth Godin?

  You know, my parents were successful because of how many people they mattered to. My friend Jacqueline Novogratz, who I think should win the Nobel Prize, who runs the Acumen Fund, is insanely successful. She is changing whole continents of the earth by bringing an idea to the fore and doing it relentlessly for year after year after year. And then I think about, you know, people in my neighborhood who are successful because they get to shovel their neighbor's walk who's elderly and it snowed last night. And that privilege and that trust lets them live a successful life.

• 1:10:38Tim Ferriss?

  Is there anything you've changed your mind about in the last few years?

• 1:10:45Seth Godin?

  Other than the web being dumb.

• 1:10:48Tim Ferriss?

  Other than the web being dumb?

• 1:10:50Seth Godin?

  Yeah, there are a bunch of things. You know, I have changed my mind in each direction about the book industry, about it not mattering, then about it mattering, and now about it being in a sad but slow decline. I've changed my mind about the big companies in the center of our internet. I think that they changed around the same time I changed my mind, maybe before that. They went from being really profoundly useful, important public goods that created enormous

• 1:11:30Seth Godin?

  value to being public companies where there's so much pressure on management by everyone who works there to make the stock price go up that they don't often make decisions in the public good anymore. And I was probably naive to think that they would keep doing it, but they are stopping.

• 1:11:50Tim Ferriss?

  What is something that you believe that other people think is crazy or insane? And this is a bastardization of Peter Thiel, a question that he uses in interviews sometimes, but I'll leave it at that.

• 1:12:04Seth Godin?

  I think that, deep down, I am certain that people are plastic in the positive sense, flexible and able to grow. I think almost everything is made, not born. And that makes people uncomfortable because it puts them on the hook, but I truly believe it.

• 1:12:24Tim Ferriss?

  What is the book or the books that you've given most as a gift or as gifts? Besides your own, if you've given your own?

• 1:12:34Seth Godin?

  Well, I want to talk about my own because

• 1:12:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, definitely, we can talk.

• 1:12:38Seth Godin?

  You're supposed to talk about your movie if you're an actor, but you're not supposed to talk about your book if you're an author. I wrote, I wrote your turn so I could give it away. And so I spoke at a high school two weeks ago. I give every student a copy a month before I got there. And there are very few books that are written to be given away in the sense that most books are purchased by the person intend on reading them. And you write a book differently if you think it's going to be given away. But I have also given away many copies of Cory Doctorow's books. If you're into 3D printing and stuff, Makers. If you're into security and privacy, Little Brother.

• 1:13:23Seth Godin?

  I've given away tons of copies of the right kind of science fiction. Let me distinguish between a couple of kinds. The movies have ruined science fiction because they have created this sort of violent dystopian, we all ought to become survivalists, zombie-fueled, science fiction that isn't what science fiction was for. The other kind of science fiction is the science fiction that fundamentally rewires your brain. And this is one reason why live tweeting speeches makes no sense and why taking tons of notes on certain kind of books make no sense.

• 1:14:07Seth Godin?

  Because as Scott MacLeod pointed out in his brilliant book, Understanding Comics, which I have given away many, many copies of, all the action in comics happens in between the panels. That that's why comics are an art form. Because in panel A, something happened, and panel B, something happened. But it's what happened between A and B that changed your mind about anything. The actions in your head. Well, the same thing is true in a great science fiction book. If you read Snow Crash.

• 1:14:34Tim Ferriss?

  Such a good book, such a good book.

• 1:14:36Seth Godin?

  It's such a good book, but you can't give it to someone now. I've tried, it doesn't work. You have to read it before you've been on the internet.

• 1:14:42Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, right, yeah.

• 1:14:44Seth Godin?

  Then it, then it changes your mind, right? Or if you read Diamond Age, before you've thought about molecular anything or 3D printing, then it changes your mind. You know, he, he, he wrote that book before the iPad, before the Kindle. It's just that shift is now I tell you the shift. And now the book doesn't work the way it would have if I hadn't told you the shift. Because it's when it shifts in your head. So if you, if you read Dune, and you don't read it for the plot, but you read it for understanding geopolitics. Suddenly, something clicks in your head. If you read Pattern Recognition by William Gibson, you don't even have to finish it. Just read the first five chapters.

• 1:15:27Seth Godin?

  And suddenly, you will now understand what a brand is. And it's just, those are the kinds of books that I give away a lot. Separate from the books in audio that I give away, which I've been saving for you to ask me about.

• 1:15:42Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 1:15:43Seth Godin?

  Audio is my focus for today.

• 1:15:45Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, let's get into it. No, I mean, I've, I'm, by virtue of doing this podcast and also becoming involved with audiobooks. I'm, I'm all about audio right now. So please, just I'll, I'll let you, I'll take the mic.

• 1:15:59Seth Godin?

  Okay, so here we go. So what we explained, I explained, was certain kinds of books work because they cause something to flip in your head. They cannot be digested, they set you up, and they take you to the next step. Audio is different because you can listen to it again and again and again. And you listen to it when you don't think you are paying attention, and it's working. And when I make a list of books that have profoundly influenced me, they tend to be books that I have listened to. Well, in the case of the first one I'll start with, so many times that I wore out 72 cassettes. They could not be played anymore and I had to buy another $500 set.

• 1:16:42Seth Godin?

  That's when I didn't have $500 to spend on 72 cassettes. And that's Zig Ziglar. Zig is your grandfather and my grandfather. He's Tony Robbins grandfather. None of us would be here if it weren't for Zig. And some of his politics and some of his outlook on life are extremely dated and I disagreed with them. But the fundamental principles of goal setting and motivation and the fear people have of saying yes when you sell to them, those were the three sections of the stuff just kept me going. And again, and again, and again. And I told Zig, the one time we worked together, I said,

• 1:17:24Seth Godin?

  anytime you need me to stand in for you, I can even do it with the accent. Because that's how many times I listened. So that's the first one.

• 1:17:32Tim Ferriss?

  Is there a particular name to the series? Or is there just one audio set by Zig?

• 1:17:38Seth Godin?

  Well, no, there's so there's one series.

• 1:17:39Tim Ferriss?

  Or I guess it's a collection.

• 1:17:41Seth Godin?

  Right, three series. One series on goal setting. One series called How to Stay Motivated. And one series called Secrets of Closing the Sale. Yeah, on Secrets of Closing the Sale, Zig tells a 17 minute story about a guy in St. Louis shining his shoes. So just if you just listen to one story, if you're into selling, you just listen to that story 10 times, can't listen once, 10 times, you'll become a different kind of salesperson. And if you, if you listen to the story about his friend in Canada, you will understand what motivation is.

• 1:18:21Seth Godin?

  If you listen to him talking about how we rewire our brains with goal setting. I mean, you, Tim, have talked about it so much, but it's a really fascinating.

• 1:18:34Seth Godin?

  Glimpse at 1960, and I encourage it. Number two, almost the flip side. The recorded works of Pema Chodron, C-H-O-D-R-O-N. And I'm guessing you've talked about her in the past.

• 1:18:48Tim Ferriss?

  She has come up, yeah.

• 1:18:49Seth Godin?

  She is a Buddhist nun who has a monastery in Nova Scotia. And Pema will also get under your skin in a totally different way. She is a disciple of Chöngyal Trungpa Rinpoche, who was the first full Buddhist monk in the US. The way to understand his teaching is in one tiny little parable, which is this: We are falling, falling, with nothing to hold on to and nothing to slow us down. The good news is, there is no ground to land on.

• 1:19:28Seth Godin?

  So those are two. Then, inspired by the two of them and some work I did, I did something for charity called Leap First. That's a short audiobook that captures some of the things I was trying to teach people about this. And you can get that at Sounds True. I have four more, working our way from the nonfiction to more lyrical. The Art of Possibility, which is very hard to find on audio and is totally worth seeking out. It's by Roz Zander and her husband Ben, friends of mine. Ben is a symphony conductor in Boston, and Roz is a social worker.

• 1:20:10Seth Godin?

  And the two of them will completely change the way you think about possibility, about enrollment, about leadership. And again, I listen to it probably once a month in the car. Just put it on in the middle, doesn't matter where you start. The next one is The War of Art, also hard to find on audio. I find Steve's voice to be fascinating. And even before I knew him, I was fascinated by listening to him speak his own work. Two left. Just Kids, which is the single best audiobook ever recorded by Patti Smith. It is not going to change the way you do business, but it

• 1:20:52Seth Godin?

  might change the way you live. It's about love and loss and art. It's about non-confidence and confidence. And it's mostly about having a best friend. It's magic. And I can just hear her quoting Robert, "Patty." So good. And then the last one I'm going to tell you out of left field is a book called Debt by David Graeber. I recommend it in audio because David is sometimes repetitive and a little elliptical. But in audio, it's all okay because you can just listen to it again. Debt is a, David was on tenure track

• 1:21:34Seth Godin?

  at Yale, then he co-founded the Occupy Movement, and it sort of looks like they threw him out. He's an anthropologist, and he studies lots of things in our ancient history. His theory about where did money come from is mind blowing. And I'll give you the short version, which is every economics textbook, and he quotes seven of them, teaches that people got tired of carrying around a goat to trade for a sheep, and it's hard to cut it up to trade for some butter and some bread. So with all that trading in the little village square that looks something like Salem, Massachusetts, one day someone said, "Let's have money instead," and everyone was happy.

• 1:22:18Seth Godin?

  It turns out, there's no evidence that this ever happened once anywhere in the universe.

• 1:22:25Tim Ferriss?

  That never stops the writing, though.

• 1:22:28Seth Godin?

  And instead, he argues very persuasively that money was invented to keep track of debt, and that debt predates money. And this is a book about simple debt, and then the debt that leads to prostitution, and then the debt that leads to marriage debt, and then the debt that leads to developing nations being billions of dollars in debt to the rich world merely because a dictator stole a lot of money. And I found it completely rewired the way I thought our world actually worked. I'm not ready to go, you know, stand on the battle lines of the next Occupy movement,

• 1:23:11Seth Godin?

  but I really have far more color and insight now as to what money is and how it changed everything, because it's all about debt.

• 1:23:22Tim Ferriss?

  Which of these, going from Zig to Pema and onward down to debt with David, which of these do you think I should start with? Or which one would you suggest I start with?

• 1:23:33Seth Godin?

  Well, I think it's important to realize that audiobooks are a practice, that real books are not. You can read real books the way you and I do, which is read a chapter and then decide if chapter two has earned it or not. But I find that, like dieting, you're not going to get any benefit if you just start and see how it goes. So for me, if you're feeling stuck, it's all about the War of Art and the Art of Possibility. If you are feeling stressed, it's about Pema. If you need to see a path that is, you know, more colored than the one you're already on, which is pretty technicolor, then it's Zig.

• 1:24:18Seth Godin?

  And if you just want to cry a little, it's Just Kids. And then debt is the one that's just closest to reading a book. I don't think many people should listen to debt 10 times.

• 1:24:29Tim Ferriss?

  And this is not exactly debt, but just on a, on a money theme. Can you think of any $100 or less purchase that has heavily impacted your life in the last six months or recent memory?

• 1:24:46Seth Godin?

  So, you know, once the stereo is working, it doesn't make sense to buy more stereo equipment because that's just silly and you can do better than that. But what you could do is become obsessed with artisanal bean to bar chocolate.

• 1:25:05Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:25:05Seth Godin?

  Not, I'm saying one could, not that one should, but one could. So I did, and I worked my way up the ladder. About a year ago, I was about to start my own chocolate company because it's not that hard. And then I bumped into a few brands that were doing it better than I ever could. And so there is a company in Western Massachusetts called Rogue Chocolate, R O G U E. And you can only buy their stuff pre-order, by mail. It's 12 bucks for a chocolate bar and I'd pay 20 happily because a party happens in your mouth that's like a whole new ballgame.

• 1:25:44Seth Godin?

  So every day, there's, I have a huge pile of artisanal chocolates here, only dark chocolate, please. And I'm actually an advisor to a new acumen company called Cacao Hunters in Colombia. But there are two chocolate companies I want to highlight. Rogue, which I mentioned, and Askanose. Rogue because I don't believe it's possible to make better chocolate than they are. I think Satan works with them. And the second one, Askanose, because Sean, who used to be a lawyer, is living a life that is worth noting and possibly emulating. He not only buys his beans from farmers in the Philippines and other countries whom

• 1:26:29Seth Godin?

  he meets, but he puts their children through school. And he has built a practice of creating a worthwhile luxury good that directly benefits people, not sort of, not a little, but directly.

• 1:26:48Tim Ferriss?

  How do you spell Askanose?

• 1:26:51Tim Ferriss?

  I want to write Ashkenazi, but that's not the same thing.

• 1:26:53Seth Godin?

  Right. That's what I say in my head every time. It's A S K I N O S I E. I don't do the marketing for them because if I did, it probably would have a different name. I'm just saying. So anyway, this chocolate habit is finally the vice I had been looking for my whole life. I can, I can tell the difference between one continent and another. I can tell how long they conked it for. I can talk about.

• 1:27:22Tim Ferriss?

  Conked it?

• 1:27:23Seth Godin?

  Conked it.

• 1:27:24Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know what that means. I know what I like a conk this, the, this marine mammal, not mammal.

• 1:27:29Seth Godin?

  Unrelated.

• 1:27:30Tim Ferriss?

  Mollusk is, but so what is conk? Okay.

• 1:27:32Seth Godin?

  So here's how, here's how you make chocolate. A cocoa pod is like a Nerf football. And you throw them on a net for a while and they ferment. And then you crack them open and you dry them in the sun. And inside each one are something about three times the size of a coffee bean. The shell, you can't eat. That means that there's about to be a lot of labor. But before you can take the shell off, you roast them. Then, then after they're roasted, you have to, one by one, take the shell off. And that's really hard. And people have made these really cool machines to do it, but it's still hard. Then you're left with nibs.

• 1:28:13Seth Godin?

  These nibs are unsweetened, but if you eat one, they taste a little like dark chocolate. Then you take it and you put it in this machine that grinds them and grinds them and grinds them. And as they are being ground, they release a little bit of the oil and the liquor. And it becomes smoother and smoother and smoother. Interesting side note, it turns out that the machine that you can use to do this at home is also capable of making idli out of rice, which are those delectable little Indian crepes. So a guy from India who loves chocolate figured this out and he imports idli makers, puts a new sticker on them and sells them as chocolate conking machines.

• 1:28:56Seth Godin?

  So you put, it's two granite stones that they're in there and you can do it for up to 96 hours. And what happens is soon after 40, 50 hours in the machine, it's at a micron size that your tongue can no longer tell when you make it even smaller.

• 1:29:15Seth Godin?

  You then take that liquid, you put it, if you're adding sugar, in a tempering machine. Tempering is another really cool device that causes all of the molecules in the chocolate to line up in a certain direction by taking the chocolate to a cool, but not too cool temperature. So it's still liquid, not too hot, not too cool. And by spinning it around, all the molecules line up. And that is why chocolate bars snap when you break them and why they don't turn gray in the air. If you don't temper it, you don't get either of those effects.

• 1:29:51Tim Ferriss?

  Huh. It's like a, it's like an MRI machine for, for cacao molecules. Uh, that, you know, I did some, I actually did a little bit of tempering back in the day, making, uh, truffles ages ago in Saratoga. It was a blast. I recommend everybody take a, take a chocolate making class if you can. So this, this is great. Rogue chocolate. And where's rogue chocolate based? Just in case there's more than one, the one that you're referring to.

• 1:30:17Seth Godin?

  Hold on. I just ate up all of my last batch. So I can't look at the label, but I can tell you that they are in Three Rivers, Massachusetts.

• 1:30:28Tim Ferriss?

  Three Rivers, Mass. Okay. And, uh, on, on the, uh, subject of eating, what do your eating habits look like? What does your diet look like?

• 1:30:38Seth Godin?

  Yeah, it's really not good.

• 1:30:40Tim Ferriss?

  It's not good?

• 1:30:41Seth Godin?

  Well, it's not good because I'm bored by it, but people are fascinated when we go out to dinner because there's so, I don't eat wheat. I don't eat dairy. I don't eat cilantro. I don't eat meat. Um, because each time I sort of adjust what I eat, I feel better. And so I feel like I am in a happy place where I can make fascinating, interesting food and mostly eat happily in restaurants without being obsessive about it.

• 1:31:07Tim Ferriss?

  What is the first, say, two hours of your day look like? And what is, what is your, what is a typical breakfast?

• 1:31:15Seth Godin?

  Uh, breakfast is one more decision I don't make. So it's a frozen banana, hemp powder, almond milk, a dried plum, and some walnuts in the blender. And then I make coffee for whoever comes over that morning and for my lovely wife. Meanwhile, I've probably done an hour and a half of stuff online before seven thirty. Um, so then I know the world didn't break when I was asleep and then I can get to work.

• 1:31:50Tim Ferriss?

  What is the half hour of triage, internet triage, or computer triage look like? What types of things are you doing in that half hour?

• 1:32:00Seth Godin?

  Well, the most important thing is, uh, did the blog work? Because if it didn't, I have to take evasive action. But I love the guys at TypePad. It's the best twenty-nine bucks a month I spend because it doesn't crash and it works. Um, and then I try to clear the email box. Uh, I've lived in email box zero since, uh, before it was coined. And, um, now my brain is free. And so then I try not to be an email hound until I've done actual productive work. And then I come to the apartment where I work and other people join me here sometimes. And we work on the Alt MBA, which is a school I am building.

• 1:32:45Seth Godin?

  And, um, that's what I do for work.

• 1:32:50Tim Ferriss?

  So, and, uh, when was the last time you worked at home, if you ever did?

• 1:32:56Seth Godin?

  Well, if there's a laptop or I'm not unconscious, I'm at work in the sense that what I do for a living is notice things.

• 1:33:04Tim Ferriss?

  Right, right. I guess the reason I ask is I've, I've long considered getting an office as opposed to operating out of coffee shops and miscellaneous locations. Um, and that is the, the context behind the question.

• 1:33:20Seth Godin?

  Yeah, it's, I do much better in this room. This room is, I couldn't recreate this room for ten million dollars. It's got so much patina. It's got patina on the patina. And that sets a bar for me about the fact that I don't want to compromise just to do the next thing because I look at the last thing or the thing before that and I say, damn, I'm proud of that. Don't do something you're not proud of. So, you know, the alt-MBA, I wouldn't be running it still if it wasn't the single most important educational thing I've ever done. And that's what I keep trying to do is the next thing's gotta be worthy of it, or else I might as well just take a break.

• 1:34:02Tim Ferriss?

  Could you elaborate because a lot of the questions from my fans on Twitter and Facebook were related to education and they generally came in the form of, in a number of themes. One was, you know, could you have him elaborate on his education manifesto? The other was, hey, I have a kid who's in fourth grade. I have a kid who's just going to be entering school. What would Seth do in my shoes? And you don't have to tackle those right off the bat, but as that is context, could you, could you tell us more about what you're up to?

• 1:34:37Seth Godin?

  All right. So this is a rant and it's not about what I'm up to. It's about what I was up to. And the rant is this, sooner or later, parents have to take responsibility for putting their kids into a system that is indebted them and teaching them to be cogs in a, in an economy that doesn't want cogs anymore. And parents get to decide, I'm a huge fan of public school. Send my kids to public school. I think everyone should go to public school because it's a great mixed master of our world. But from three o'clock to 10 o'clock, those kids are getting homeschooled and they're either getting homeschooled and watching the Flintstones, or they're getting homeschooled in learning something

• 1:35:19Seth Godin?

  useful. And I think we need to teach kids two things. One, how to lead, and two, how to solve interesting problems. Because the fact is, there are plenty of countries on earth where there are people who are willing to be obedient and work harder for less money than us. So we cannot out obedience the competition. Therefore, we have to out lead or out solve the other people, I don't care what country they live in, in Wyoming or across the world, who want that whatever is scarce. The way you teach your kids to solve interesting problems is to give them interesting problems to solve. And then...

• 1:36:03Seth Godin?

  Don't criticize them when they fail. Because kids aren't stupid. If they get in trouble every time they try to solve an interesting problem, they'll just go back to getting an A by memorizing what's in the textbook. That it's so important here. And I spend an enormous amount of time with kids. I produced The Wizard of Oz, the musical, in 4th grade. I used to help run a summer camp. I think that it's a privilege to be able to look a trusting, energetic, smart 11-year-old in the eye and tell them the truth. And what we can say to that 11-year-old is, "I really don't care how you did on your vocabulary test. I care about whether you have something to say."

• 1:36:48Seth Godin?

  And we can teach our kids from a young age to be the kind of people we want them to be. And anything that's worth memorizing is worth looking up now. So we don't need to have them spend a lot of time getting good grades so they can go into a famous college. Because famous colleges don't work anymore. Famous college isn't the point anymore. The point is, is there an entity that will have trouble living without you when you seek to earn a living? Because if there is, you'll be able to make a living. If, on the other hand, you're waiting in the placement office for someone to pick you, you will be persistently undervalued.

• 1:37:29Tim Ferriss?

  You talked earlier about writing daily as a practice, listening to the audiobooks as a practice. Are there any practices that you would suggest to the overwhelmed, busy parent who wants to start to be more proactive in this department? They have an 11-year-old. Are there any practices or exercises that you would suggest?

• 1:37:51Seth Godin?

  Well, you know super well that busy is a trap and that busy is a myth. So what could possibly be more important than your kid? Please don't play the busy card. If you spend two hours a day without an electronic device, looking your kid in the eye, talking to them, and solving interesting problems, you will raise a different kid than someone who doesn't do that. And that's one of the reasons why I cook dinner every night. Because what a wonderful semi distracted environment for the kid to tell you the truth.

• 1:38:31Seth Godin?

  For you to have low stakes, but super important conversations with someone who's important to you. Right? That this idea, get home from work, put on your sneakers and go for a walk with your kid. You know, my friend Brian walks his daughter to school every day. That's priceless. Well, how can you be too busy to do that?

• 1:38:53Tim Ferriss?

  And the work you're doing now?

• 1:38:55Seth Godin?

  So I did a couple of courses for Skillshare. They worked really well. They were very highly rated. And they had an 80% dropout rate, which is way better than anybody else. Cause other online courses have a 97% dropout rate. Then I did a course for Udemy and the same thing happened. And I'm thinking, I loved making these courses and you know, there I am on screen. It sounds like me. But why are people dropping out of my courses and everyone else's? And the reason is because when it gets hard and there's no social pressure, you leave. So what I said was, how do I make the opposite of an online course? And that meant instead of a million people, a hundred. It meant instead of being free, it's expensive.

• 1:39:40Seth Godin?

  Instead of letting everyone in, you have to apply. Instead of being easy, it's hard. And instead of being on your own, it's a group thing where there are coaches watching you all the time. And instead of lectures, it's 100% projects. So I built it to see what would happen. And so the Alt MBA is for people at big companies. We've got people from Whole Foods and Microsoft, and it's for people at tiny companies. And it's not for everybody, but we get this cohort of people. And there's a coach for every 10. We put them in Slack. We put them in WordPress. We give them 14 assignments over a 28 day period of time and we sprint as fast as we can.

• 1:40:23Seth Godin?

  And it's unbelievable. Tim, I just gotta tell you, it's unbelievable because I'm not actively involved. I just watch and because eventually the goal is to have more of these sessions. I can't be in them if they have more of them. And people change because we don't give them any other choice.

• 1:40:42Tim Ferriss?

  Could you, could you expand on the social pressure piece? I think this is such an important point. And I was asked recently, I get asked all the time, maybe you get asked this too, but like, how do you maintain the discipline? Or how do you change this habit? How do you do this? And my answer is almost always the same, like you have to have a punishment or reward for following or not following it, for doing it or not doing it. And it's, it's, it's just incredible to see how people who've never been able to lose weight before, as soon as they have a hundred dollars of their own money on the line, and it's a betting pool with five other people who will be able to heckle them at the office, all of a sudden, they figure it out really quickly. And the how to isn't as hard, but in, in, in this

• 1:41:24Tim Ferriss?

  particular example, could you expand on the, the social aspect? Because I think it's really, really important and transfers and applies to a lot of other areas.

• 1:41:34Seth Godin?

  There are some people in some areas who have the self-discipline necessary to get the work done that needs to get done. You know, those people and I need, and I know those people. And when we find one of them, it's fabulous. Like, I think I am like that with certain parts of my craft in that no one would notice if I didn't do it the way I do it. I just choose to do it. When it comes to education, though, all of us have 12 to 20 years of brainwashing going on with, which is epitomized by one sentence I hate with a passion, which is, will this be on the test?

• 1:42:20Seth Godin?

  Right? So as soon as you say, will this be on the test? You've instantly defined why you are doing something. And then, when we invite you to an online course for free on artificial intelligence, in which there is no certificate, which there is no accreditation, and you get to problem number four, and it's really hard, and you ask yourself, will this be on the test? And then you realize, there is no test, and no one even knows you're taking the course. Then you stop, and you go eat some M and M's, and you turn on the TV.

• 1:42:55Seth Godin?

  And so, the goal here was, if you need, if you benefit, if you thrive from being in an environment where you will push yourself to get what you wanted all along, I'll give you people who will push you, your fellow students and your coaches. And there won't be a test, and there won't be grades. This is better than that. This is teaching you to, you know, internalize the narrative of, my mom's not here, my mom's not watching, but I should act like she was.

• 1:43:29Tim Ferriss?

  Who do you, in your life, who helps tell you you're wrong? Or point out when your work isn't good? Or otherwise, you know, talk to the emperor, so to speak? Because you've had so much success, there's always the risk that people will tell you what you want to hear, or just give you, give you praise in all circumstances. Who do you lean on for the truth? When you need bitter truth, sometimes?

• 1:44:03Seth Godin?

  Okay, so, I would break this into two kinds of people. I have been blessed by being surrounded by very skeptical people. And, you know, people who turned to me in 1991 and said, this internet thing's never going to amount to anything. Or an English teacher who wrote in my yearbook, you are the bane of my existence. You will never write anything worth reading.

• 1:44:32Tim Ferriss?

  Hold on, let me just pause there for a second. What did you do to this guy? Or the woman?

• 1:44:37Seth Godin?

  I dedicated one of my books to her.

• 1:44:41Tim Ferriss?

  Did you send it to her?

• 1:44:42Seth Godin?

  Yes, I did.

• 1:44:43Tim Ferriss?

  How did she take that?

• 1:44:44Seth Godin?

  She was, she was always, she had a tongue in cheek all along. She was fine. But so the, the sort of uninformed skepticism is easy, at least for me to find, partly because I don't live in San Francisco.

• 1:44:59Tim Ferriss?

  Right. You're not fully in the echo chamber drinking the Kool-Aid.

• 1:45:03Seth Godin?

  But the other kind is so rare, so scarce, so precious. I only get little dribs of it now and then, which is someone who gets you, someone who can see right through to your soul, who with generosity and care can look you in the eye, hand you back something and say, I think this would be better if you did it again. And I had a business partner, Steve, who was like that in nineteen seventy-nine and eighty-one, eighty and eighty-one. And finding that again in a consistent way is really precious and really hard.

• 1:45:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it is difficult. What advice would you give your thirty-year-old self? And if you could place us for you, like where you are, what you're doing?

• 1:46:00Seth Godin?

  I'm going to cheat because I've been asked this question before.

• 1:46:03Tim Ferriss?

  Cheating's allowed.

• 1:46:05Seth Godin?

  So first, do you know about the Science Fiction book Replay?

• 1:46:09Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, no, I don't.

• 1:46:10Seth Godin?

  Brilliant, brilliant game changer. Replay is, uh, I won't tell you, it's, it's the best time travel book ever written. Anyway, I had so many bumps, starting when I was thirty years old. They lasted for nine years and I wouldn't tell my thirty-year-old self anything. Because if I hadn't had those bumps, I wouldn't be me and I'm glad I'm me.

• 1:46:38Tim Ferriss?

  What was the, if you're comfortable telling us, I mean, what was the hardest or one of the hardest bumps in that period of time?

• 1:46:47Seth Godin?

  You know, I was trying to shift my dream of what I wanted to do for a living. I was growing up, I was failing at business. I had some quiet, relentless, repeated failures of no. I had failures of sloppiness where if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have done something and it would have saved me a year of my life. There were failures of how big does something need to be? And all sorts of visible scarring that was hard, but it was part of the deal.

• 1:47:30Tim Ferriss?

  When you have a protracted, difficult period of time like that, is there any particular activity or technique or self-talk that you use to try to get back on your feet more quickly?

• 1:47:45Seth Godin?

  Well, now, I'm so much better at it because of Pema and because of meditation and because of knowing how to sit with it and not insist that the tension go away. The other thing that's important here, as long as we're getting personal, is I had to make a decision after I sold my company about whether I wanted to continue facing professional existential crises. Because Yo-Yodain and the projects before that were right on the edge for a really long time. One more mistake, you're out of the game. And I like the game. I didn't want to be out of the game.

• 1:48:28Seth Godin?

  There's a thrill to dancing with existential crises. And I know plenty of people who have been lucky like I was, who got right back in so they could have more existential crises. And I made the decision that I like the game too much to bet all the chips, so I never do.

• 1:48:46Tim Ferriss?

  Meaning that could you rephrase that? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

• 1:48:54Seth Godin?

  Sure. So if I

• 1:48:56Tim Ferriss?

  I understand what you mean about the existential crisis 100% because I know so many people who just they're addicted to that roller coaster. But when you said not betting all the chips.

• 1:49:06Seth Godin?

  Right. So let's say I took 100% of the trust I have in my brand and put it behind something really daring and huge that might not work. And so if at the end, it doesn't work and now no one ever trusts me again, that's an existential crisis. That's going to get you out of bed in the morning, isn't it? I don't want to do that.

• 1:49:29Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:49:30Seth Godin?

  I don't want to violate the trust I've earned with people.

• 1:49:32Tim Ferriss?

  Or risk it, risk violating that trust.

• 1:49:35Seth Godin?

  Risk violating that trust. So that keeps me from doing certain things that people with resources could choose to do, but I don't want to play that game.

• 1:49:47Tim Ferriss?

  What does your meditation practice look like?

• 1:49:50Seth Godin?

  It's sloppy. It works. It's nothing worth writing home about.

• 1:49:53Tim Ferriss?

  It's okay. Maybe it's worth mentioning briefly. Even if sloppy, I mean, I and look, in full disclosure, when people I have journalists ask me, you know, can I, we want to follow you for a day. Like, no, you don't. You really don't. It is going to be like, it'll be like watching adaptation with Nick Cage. Like, it's going to be so boring for you. But what does the sloppy meditative practice look like?

• 1:50:19Seth Godin?

  Well, my friend Susan Piver runs the largest online meditation center in the world. And so every once in a while, I drop in on her thing. I go to the Shambhala Center on Sundays in New York sometimes and sit for half an hour. But usually, I'm pretty good at getting into the state I need to pretty quickly. So I'll just sit and I'll close my eyes and I'll breathe. And when I've had enough of that, I'll go back to what I was doing.

• 1:50:46Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have a set time for that? Do you tend to do it in the mornings? No.

• 1:50:50Seth Godin?

  I don't quantify that stuff. I quantify almost nothing in my life.

• 1:50:54Tim Ferriss?

  Which I'm okay with. The, not that you care, but the, or should care, but the, the, is there a state that triggers you to sit down and meditate?

• 1:51:04Seth Godin?

  Well, yeah, if the narrative is getting in the way of what's actually happening, you need to make it so that the narrative gently backs off. And it's really hard to yell at the narrative and make it back off right away because that just makes the narrative louder. So instead, I will undermine it by making it surrounded by nothing until it sort of melts away.

• 1:51:32Tim Ferriss?

  I took a, an acting class, my first ever acting class. I have no plans to act with this incredible guy named Josh Peis, a very successful actor. Class was called Committed Impulse. And when, when people's minds wandered, we were instructed to say, you know, I'm back. And there were a bunch of exercises intended to make us fully present to our bodily sensations and whatnot. And it struck me how applicable all of that was to exactly what you're describing, which is not trying to fight the riptide of this narrative, but to just be acutely aware of it. And I never really thought of it as meditation, but I started doing this thing

• 1:52:14Tim Ferriss?

  and I don't know how I started doing it, but just a three breath break, like literally just, I was, because I was always told I count to 10, do 10 breaths. And for whatever reason, I was too impatient for that. And I was like, all right, it's just three breaths. And have found it incredibly, incredibly helpful as someone who has some extremely self-defeating narratives that tend to surface all the time. If you could have one billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say?

• 1:52:42Seth Godin?

  Jay Levinson, another old friend who passed away recently, wrote guerrilla marketing. And he liked to say the best billboard in history said, free coffee next exit.

• 1:52:56Tim Ferriss?

  Free coffee next exit.

• 1:53:02Tim Ferriss?

  Have you given commencement speeches, Seth?

• 1:53:04Seth Godin?

  I have been asked, let's go over this, a whole bunch of people who don't want to hear from you, waiting for you to be done.

• 1:53:18Tim Ferriss?

  I suppose that's one way to look at it. So that's the reason why you have not done commencement speeches.

• 1:53:26Seth Godin?

  Ding ding ding.

• 1:53:27Tim Ferriss?

  Let's, all right, so let's say

• 1:53:31Tim Ferriss?

  with your class, with your MBA, you are giving the commencement speech to them. They're motivated, they do want to hear from you, they're not waiting to get shitfaced two hours later. Or maybe they are, but not all of them.

• 1:53:47Tim Ferriss?

  What would you say to them?

• 1:53:50Seth Godin?

  Well, I would like to believe that one out of every three days, my blog is a commencement speech, right? When it's not talking about technology or marketing, I'm talking about respect, I'm talking about choice, I'm talking about the impact we can make. And, you know, the problem with commencement speeches is the only ones we hear are the ones that were transcribed and written for people like us, not for actual graduates.

• 1:54:18Seth Godin?

  Because what we really want to say to actual graduates is just a reminder of what they should have heard at least three times a day in every one of their classes. And that is, you are more powerful than you think you are. Act accordingly.

• 1:54:34Tim Ferriss?

  I like that. Just a few more questions, this has been...

• 1:54:38Seth Godin?

  You're doing great. It feels like we've only been talking for 15 minutes.

• 1:54:41Tim Ferriss?

  Oh yeah, no, this is super fun. I love every opportunity that I have to chat with you. Just a few more. Do you have any ask or request for my audience? And the next question's just going to be where people can find you. So this is effectively the last question, but do you have any ask or request for my audience, suggestion for the people listening, anything at all that you'd just like to transmit to them?

• 1:55:07Seth Godin?

  Send someone a thank you note tomorrow.

• 1:55:11Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any particular way that you like to send thank you notes?

• 1:55:15Seth Godin?

  No, I'm giving people lots of freedom here.

• 1:55:21Tim Ferriss?

  Well, freedom, I think that's a great place to actually wrap up. I think your work, your thinking, the daily contact that people can have with your blog, even if they get some type of angst by skipping one or two a week instead of sending you an angry note, is really significant. So I just want to thank you for putting it all out into the world. And I think people are able to create greater freedom for themselves and the people they care about as a result of it. So it's a meaningful thing that you do. And where can people, where can people find you online, the basics, where would you like them to learn more about what you're up to? And of course, for everybody listening,

• 1:56:00Tim Ferriss?

  we will put tons of links in the show notes and I'll give out that URL when we wrap up. But Seth, where can people find you on the interwebs or elsewhere?

• 1:56:11Seth Godin?

  My mother's plan was to name me Scott. And my grandfather, Yezo, said to her, don't do that. That's a brand of toilet paper. And so she named me Seth instead. And if you type Seth into the Google, there I will be.

• 1:56:29Seth Godin?

  It would not have worked if my name was Scott.

• 1:56:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's very true. Well, that keeps it simple. Seth, thank you so much for the time. And you know what? We should, we should maybe, I really want to recommend this because I almost ate an entire box. Can we touch, can we touch on the almond cookies for one second?

• 1:56:48Seth Godin?

  Let's talk about.

• 1:56:49Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So do you want to take it from here?

• 1:56:51Seth Godin?

  My wife was a gluten free, not, my wife was a workaholic lawyer for 25 years. And then she quit and she decided to open a bakery, but our little town probably wouldn't attract enough people. So it became a gluten free, dairy free bakery. And now there's three of them, two in Manhattan, one in Hastings on Hudson called By the Way. They don't ship. So you're gonna have to get yourself on an airplane and go to the By the Way Bakery. Don't bother telling them that I sent you because you will not get a discount.

• 1:57:24Tim Ferriss?

  And why is it, why the name "By the Way"?

• 1:57:27Seth Godin?

  So, uh, the idea, I was, uh, teaching naming at one of the, uh, long-form free seminars I ran years ago, and, um, the bakery was just getting started, so we used it as a case study. And one of the students understood that you shouldn't call it "The Gluten-Free Dairy-Free Bakery in Town." You should come up with a name that carries value. And the value here is, "By the Way, it's gluten-free." Who would've known?

• 1:57:54Tim Ferriss?

  And the, the question that I asked your wife that I will give the answer to, uh, was, "If I could only have one thing at the bakery, what should I try?" And the almond cookies were the first answer. I'm su- and I've heard, uh, we have a, we have a mutual friend, Jeff, Jeffrey Zorowski, Jay-Z and The 4-Hour Chef, for those of you who've read it, uh, who's named, uh, named off a whole list of others that I need to try, but the almond cookies are amazing. You just have to try them, and, uh, I can tolerate dairy, I can tolerate gluten. These are just a home run. And I remember, uh, having a box in the, uh, in

• 1:58:35Tim Ferriss?

  a hotel in New York City, and I sat down, and I opened it, and I knew it was trouble as soon as I saw the cookies, and I had one, and I was like, "Okay, that's enough, put it away." It wasn't one of my cheat days, and, you know, three-quarters of a box later, I'm like, "All right, I have to give these to the staff, or I'm gonna eat this entire box." But, uh, the, uh, yeah, I will, I will leave it at that. And for those of you who follow my, my, my stuff, you know that I love pastries and I have a high bar. So, uh, on that note, Seth, thank you so much for all the time. Uh, hopefully get to see you again soon. And to everybody listening, you can find the show notes with links to

• 1:59:15Tim Ferriss?

  everything that Seth has mentioned at 4hourworkweek.com/podcast. And Seth, any other parting words?

• 1:59:22Seth Godin?

  You know, I usually end by saying, "Go make a ruckus," but in your case, I don't need to, 'cause you always do. Thank you for leading us, Mr. Ferris.

• 1:59:31Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you, Seth. Until next time, guys. Thank you for listening.

• 1:59:41Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 2:00:23Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is a great partner for creating and growing your business. It's a one-stop shop for all of your graphic design needs, whether that's a logo, website, business card, or anything else. I use 99designs to get book cover prototypes for The Four Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. I also use them for banner ads, illustrations, and other things.

• 2:01:07Tim Ferriss?

  With 99designs, designers around the world compete to create the best design for you. You give feedback and then pick your favorite. You end up happy or you get your money back. It's very simple. You can check out a few of my own designs and those of yours, meaning Tim Ferriss Show listeners, at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, my listeners, you guys, will get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. That's 99designs.com/tim. Check it out.

• 2:01:39Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Audible, which I've used for years. I love audiobooks, and I have two to recommend right off the bat. Number one is perhaps my favorite audiobook of all time, and that is The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman, the only audiobook I've wanted to immediately listen to a second time as soon as I finished. It's amazing, you will thank me, The Graveyard Book. The second is Vagabonding by Rolf Potts, which had a huge impact on my life and formed the basis for a lot of what became The Four Hour Work Week. So, all you need to do to get your free audiobook and a free 30-day trial is go to audible.com/tim, and you can choose one of those two books, The Graveyard Book, Vagabonding, or more than

• 2:02:22Tim Ferriss?

  180,000 audio programs. So that could be a book, that could be a magazine, that could be a newspaper, it could be a class, it's that easy. Go to audible.com/tim, that's audible.com/tim, and grab a book. And until next time, thank you for listening.