Pride, Prejudice, and Peer Pressure

Rund takes Ramtin on a tour of the enduring world of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice... and our two hosts make a bet. Guests: John Mullan, professor of English Literature at University College London and author of What Matters in Jane Austen Devoney Looser, professor of English at Arizona State University and author of Wild for Austen: A Rebellious, Subversive and Untamed Jane Lizzie Dunford, director of Jane Austen's House To access bonus episodes and listen to Throughline sponsor-free, subscribe to Throughline+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org/throughline. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:17Rund Abdelfatah?

  Hey, it's Rand. Before we start the show today, I want to talk for a minute about public media. Because it's what makes Throughline and all the podcasts you love from NPR unique. Public media is made for you. It centers and serves you, the listener, by providing educational shows on TV and radio meant to enrich your understanding and your life. We believe in these commitments. We always will. But as of this fall, federal funding for public media, including NPR and local NPR stations, has been eliminated. As we move into this uncharted future together, we know that you will not let the service

• 0:59Rund Abdelfatah?

  that has been here for you all these years falter. This year, we at Throughline have loved bringing you episodes about everything from the story of the US-Mexico border, to war reporting, to the subsea cables that power the global internet. And we can't wait to see what we'll get into together in 2026. Thank you if you already go the extra mile as a Throughline Plus supporter. If not, you can join the Plus community. Get a bunch of perks like bonus episodes and more from across NPR's podcasts. And support public media by signing up for NPR Plus today at plus.npr.org. Now, onto the show.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  If I can but see one of my daughters happily settled and all the others equally well-married, I shall have nothing to wish for.

• 2:06Rund Abdelfatah?

  Okay, Ronteen.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Where are we right now?

• 2:09Rund Abdelfatah?

  I'm gonna let you into a secret room in my mind, where this book by Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, lives rent-free.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  I mean, I've never read the book, but I've heard of it, obviously, like everyone else. I also know you're obsessed.

• 2:23Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, I mean, look, it's a book that I've loved since I was a teenager, for sure. And we're getting into Sit by a Fire and Read season. In my case, you know, a virtual fireplace on my TV. And I've been revisiting it. So, let me take you there.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Let's go.

• 2:42Rund Abdelfatah?

  We're in a small town in southern England, turn of the 19th century. Lots of green and rolling hills. Think Great British Bake Off, but more corsets and candles.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Pristine.

• 2:52Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah. And we're at a ball.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  To be fond of dancing was a certain step towards falling in love.

• 3:00Rund Abdelfatah?

  Since this is a public ball, the room is packed with local townspeople. There's a small band of musicians playing in the corner. But our real focus is the Bennet family. Five sisters who are at the dance with their mom, Mrs. Bennet. Their dad, Mr. Bennet, stayed home because he hates things like this.

• 3:16Speaker 03

  That would have been me, 100%. I'm Mr. Bennet.

• 3:20Rund Abdelfatah?

  The sisters, they're all really different. Lydia and Kitty, the two youngest, are attached at the hip. They're both boy crazy teens. Then you've got the middle sister, Mary. She's a little quirky and wants to play the piano all day. And then we get to the two oldest sisters, who are very close. Jane and Elizabeth Bennet.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  Elizabeth Bennet, I know that name.

• 3:39Rund Abdelfatah?

  She's the driving force of the story, and she comes up in our pop culture like almost as much as Hamlet or Scrooge. So, as the sisters are mingling, their mom is getting drunk and loudly talking about how they need to find a husband. And then cue that scene you've probably seen in a million movies. The gusts of wind, the doors swing open, and in walks...

• 4:02Speaker 03

  Vampires.

• 4:04Rund Abdelfatah?

  Get out of here, Ronteen.

• 4:07Rund Abdelfatah?

  Anyway, so these two guys walk in who catch the eye of the Bennet sisters. Mr. Bingley.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Good-looking and gentlemanlike.

• 4:15Rund Abdelfatah?

  He's a solid, nice guy, maybe a little boring. But more importantly, he's just bought the biggest estate in town, so he's loaded. And his buddy, Mr. Darcy, who's actually even richer than him.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  The ladies declared he was much handsomer than Mr. Bingley.

• 4:29Rund Abdelfatah?

  But Mr. Darcy lacks people skills, to put it mildly. And he also refuses to dance.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  What a contrast between him and his friend.

• 4:37Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mr. Bingley eventually goes over to him and is like, there's so many cute girls here. But Darcy doesn't agree.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  You are dancing with the only handsome girl in the room.

• 4:47Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mr. Bingley's been dancing with Jane Bennet. But okay, he says, what about her sister, Elizabeth? She's not too shabby. Then Darcy turns to look at Elizabeth and within her earshot says.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Savage.

• 5:03Rund Abdelfatah?

  If I heard a guy say that about me, I'd probably wallow for a while. But Elizabeth.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  She told the story with great spirit among her friends, for she had a lively, playful disposition, which delighted in anything ridiculous.

• 5:17Rund Abdelfatah?

  Basically, she laughs it off and vows never to dance with Mr. Darcy. But you get the sense that on some level, it really hurts her. And this is kind of the foundational scene of the book, the beginning of the relationship between Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy. The Pride and the Prejudice are set.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  That was actually more fun than I thought. It was gonna be, honestly. But like, why are you bringing this up now?

• 5:45Rund Abdelfatah?

  You know, I've actually thought about this since I was a teenager. That's when I first read Pride and Prejudice, when I sort of fell in love with the whole Jane Austen universe. And like, as I've gotten older, being a first-generation immigrant, being the daughter of Palestinian refugees who fled a place that had been, you know, colonized at one point by the British. It made me like, I had a little bit of an identity crisis. I was like, why, why am I like, so into these stories that this British woman who was born in the 18th century wrote?

• 6:16Speaker 03

  It's like what part of, has always kind of turned me off.

• 6:19Rund Abdelfatah?

  Sure.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  From this genre, actually.

• 6:21Rund Abdelfatah?

  Very, very fair, right? But like, I know I'm not alone. I know there are millions of other people who are also hooked.

• 6:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:28Rund Abdelfatah?

  And then I saw that, you know, December 16, 2025 is the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birthday. So I was like, OK, let me use this as an excuse to finally look into this.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  I'm down.

• 6:40Rund Abdelfatah?

  Oh, good. I, I should say, there's going to be spoilers, obviously.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  I'm gonna keep it real. I'm not going back to read all these books, so I'm up for the spoilers. I'm here for the journey, OK?

• 6:50Rund Abdelfatah?

  OK, I actually assumed you were gonna say that. And so my pitch to you is if by the end of this episode, you are a Jane Austen convert.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  OK.

• 6:59Rund Abdelfatah?

  You have to choose one of the adaptations to watch.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  OK.

• 7:02Rund Abdelfatah?

  And then you have to geek out about it with me on a Throughline Plus episode.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  All right. I'm hesitantly down for that.

• 7:08Rund Abdelfatah?

  Let me walk you through just a few of them.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  OK.

• 7:10Rund Abdelfatah?

  So there's this classic 1995 one.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  I have every reason in the world to think ill of you.

• 7:15Rund Abdelfatah?

  Bridget Jones' Diary. Afraid I'm a bit hungover. There's a Bollywood version.

• 7:20Speaker 05

  I hated seeing you with Wickham in India.

• 7:22Rund Abdelfatah?

  There's a Keira Knightley version. I wonder if you first discovered the power of poetry in driving away love? There's one with zombies. You're undead. And there's one that takes place on Fire Island.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  Fire Island?

• 7:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  Uh huh.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  I'm trying to see the Bollywood one.

• 7:36Rund Abdelfatah?

  It's called Bride in Prejudice, by the way.

• 7:40Rund Abdelfatah?

  All right, I'm excited. Here we go.

• 7:53Speaker 06

  Hi, this is Jewel from Toledo, Ohio. You're listening to Throughline from NPR.

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• 9:01Speaker 02

  Part one, can we trust a first impression?

• 9:06Speaker 02

  It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.

• 9:14Rund Abdelfatah?

  This is the very first line of Pride and Prejudice.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  It sounds familiar. What a hilarious sentiment, right? Today?

• 9:22Speaker 07

  It's so characteristic of Jane Austen that she starts with a sort of ironical version of that world where everybody's desperate about getting married. Jane Austen is saying that, but she's laughing at it.

• 9:36Rund Abdelfatah?

  Oh, did I mention I'm going to have some experts slash Austen super fans helping me out today? His name is John Mullen.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:43Speaker 07

  I'm professor of English literature at University College London, and I'm the author of What Matters in Jane Austen?

• 9:53Rund Abdelfatah?

  John has spent years dissecting every word Austen has written.

• 9:57Speaker 07

  When I was a teenage boy, I didn't quite realize how wonderful she was because nobody got shot and, you know, nobody traveled down the Congo River and nobody hunted a whale in the southern ocean, you know, what? It's just some people making mistakes about who fancies who and who doesn't fancy who.

• 10:14Rund Abdelfatah?

  I bet that's what you thought when you were a teenager, I'm thinking.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:16Rund Abdelfatah?

  Well, look, when John finally gave Austen the time of day, he realized this focus on ordinary people living ordinary lives was their greatest strength.

• 10:25Speaker 07

  That's kind of liberated the novel, I think.

• 10:29Rund Abdelfatah?

  Let's jump back into the world of Pride and Prejudice with John as our guide.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  "My dear Mr. Bennett," said his lady to him one day, "have you heard that Netherfield Park is let at last?" Mr. Bennett replied that he had not. "But it is." Mr. Bennett made no answer.

• 10:52Speaker 07

  In the first chapter after that famous opening sentence, what you get is almost entirely dialogue between these two people you've never met before, Mr. and Mrs. Bennett.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  "Do you not want to know who has taken it?" cried his wife impatiently. "You want to tell me, and I have no objection to hearing it." This was invitation enough.

• 11:14Speaker 07

  It's pretty clear to any intelligent reader that he is sort of teasing her. But she doesn't understand. And the subject of the conversation isn't the arrival of this rich young man in a neighboring estate.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  What is his name? Bingley. Is he married or single? Oh, single, my dear, to be sure. A single man of large fortune, four or five thousand a year. What a fine thing for our girls. How so? How can it affect them? How can you be so tiresome? You must know that I am thinking of his marrying one of them.

• 11:53Speaker 07

  The Bennetts have five daughters. None of the daughters are going to inherit the estate because it's left to a male descendant. Mr. Bennett, he hadn't made sufficient provision for his wife and daughters.

• 12:06Rund Abdelfatah?

  I think it's a mirror. I think it's a mirror to her reality.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  Who's this?

• 12:14Rund Abdelfatah?

  Lizzie Dunford.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 12:15Rund Abdelfatah?

  She's the director of Jane Austen House, which is the actual house where Austen lived the last decade of her life and finished writing Pride and Prejudice. I tried to coordinate a visit, but you know, it's not in the budget. Anyway, so Lizzy, you know, she told me that the book is really reflecting the world that Jane Austen actually lived in, where women like her and like Elizabeth Bennet can't inherit property, can't work in most professions, and mostly depend on the men in their lives for economic security. How do they deal with that risk? How do they find a safe and secure home?

• 12:49Speaker 03

  They do it through marriage. Basically, Jane Austen is creating these characters that are in the same situation she's in.

• 12:58Rund Abdelfatah?

  I mean, similar situations. So here's what we know about how she grew up, what her life was like. She wasn't actually super wealthy, which surprised me when I found that out. She only went to school for a year, but her father taught her. And she began writing short stories at age 11. She just had this natural gift. And her father was loving, like Mr. Bennett, but also like him, didn't have a lot of extra cash. So when he died in 1805, Austen and her mom and sister, Austen was 29, relied on her brothers for support.

• 13:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  And that's a big difference from the Bennett sisters who had no brothers.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  And she's 29 and unmarried?

• 13:38Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mm hmm. She and her sister never got married, actually.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  But she's gotta be unusual to be unmarried at 29.

• 13:45Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yep.

• 13:45Speaker 03

  Was she actually able to make money from the stuff she was writing?

• 13:49Rund Abdelfatah?

  So it's interesting. She was writing for a long time, decades before she started publishing, around her mid 30s. But it wasn't actually enough to live off of, even though they were very popular books. And that's pretty much what we know about her. We've got around 160 letters that she wrote and some collections of memories and anecdotes from people who knew her or say they knew her. That's it.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 14:11Rund Abdelfatah?

  There were more letters, but her sister actually burned them.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  What do you mean burned?

• 14:16Rund Abdelfatah?

  Threw them in the fire, likely to protect her privacy.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 14:20Rund Abdelfatah?

  But there is this small part of me that wonders if maybe she was covering up a scandal. But that's totally fanfiction territory, so.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  That's the asterisk.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're such a conspiracy theorist. I love it. I love it.

• 14:35Rund Abdelfatah?

  Okay, with this stuff, yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  But, okay, so I see this like kind of parallel in the book with economic struggle, the kind of social chess game these people were playing.

• 14:44Rund Abdelfatah?

  You're picking up what I'm putting down.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  I try.

• 14:48Rund Abdelfatah?

  Even just from those first few pages in that conversation between Mr. and Mrs. Bennett, you're getting a good amount of this.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  I'm gonna keep it real, though, right now. And maybe because as like a guy with a family, you know, now, I don't know about Mr. Bennett, Ron.

• 15:04Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mm hmm. Okay, tell me more.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Okay, like, he's kind of funny, but like, come on, man, he's... How are you gonna leave your family out to dry? Like, there's something about that doesn't stick right with me.

• 15:12Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, yeah. I have a very different read on him now versus when I was 15. When I first read it, I liked him. I thought he was funny. He reminded me a little of my own dad.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's got the hokey dad thing going on, right?

• 15:24Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, he didn't like take all the marriage stuff so seriously. And for me, at that time, I was like, growing up in a conservative with some household, you know how it was, you also did. Marriage was not this like far-off thing.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:36Rund Abdelfatah?

  It felt like something that was very serious. So, anyway, I liked him then. When I reread it... A few weeks ago, I had the exact same reaction to him as you do, which is like, dude, you needed to step up.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:48Rund Abdelfatah?

  You didn't. So now they have to rely on marriage as a last resort.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Interesting. It's like Mr. Bingley, Mr. Darcy. In a way, they are like lifelines, like potential lifelines for the girls.

• 16:01Rund Abdelfatah?

  Exactly. And all of it depends on if the Bennet sisters can win them over, which, as we know for Elizabeth Bennet, doesn't get off to a great start.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me.

• 16:13Rund Abdelfatah?

  And I think what Austin is really pushing us to do in these early chapters is take a closer look at how first impressions are formed. We all have this instinct.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:23Rund Abdelfatah?

  When we meet someone, we're making a snap judgment. And that really shapes like how we interact with people.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  It's the foundation of dating now, right? Like you get on the app and you have like literally a second going through pictures, quick blurbs, boom, boom, boom, or whatever. So everything is about the first impression now.

• 16:40Rund Abdelfatah?

  In some ways, we're still navigating a version of the same social chessboard that Elizabeth Bennet is navigating, right? And like we know for her, Mr. Darcy gives her the ick like right off the bat, right? But she's then playing the field and she meets this other guy, Mr. Wickham.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  What a name.

• 17:01Rund Abdelfatah?

  Remember his name.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  Okay, Wickham. I'll remember that.

• 17:03Rund Abdelfatah?

  He makes a really good first impression on Elizabeth. He's a man in uniform, a soldier who's passing through with his regiment. He's handsome and smooth talking and they flirt and laugh. And he talks a lot of ish about Mr. Darcy.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  So he's got beef with Mr. Darcy?

• 17:20Rund Abdelfatah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, they got beef. Mr. Wickham, he tells Elizabeth that they grew up together and Darcy's father liked him, Wickham, more. And when he died, Darcy cheated Wickham out of his inheritance, out of jealousy.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  So he's basically setting up Darcy as this like extremely sketchy guy?

• 17:39Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Rund Abdelfatah?

  Okay, so if you're counting, Elizabeth now has two potential suitors. Darcy, who she hates, Wickham, who she's into. And then she gets a curveball. Her cousin, the heir to the Bennet home, Mr. Collins.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  Her cousin?

• 17:56Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, we're not gonna get into all that, Ramtin.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  All right. Okay.

• 17:59Rund Abdelfatah?

  It's a different time.

• 18:00Speaker 03

  I'll just say it.

• 18:01Speaker 07

  Mr. Collins is a silly man.

• 18:05Rund Abdelfatah?

  Austin describes him as a mixture of servility and self-importance.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  Like he thinks he's more charming than he is.

• 18:12Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, and he decides Elizabeth should be his wife. But, by the way, only after finding out her prettier, older sister Jane is already expecting a proposal for Mr. Bingley. Long story short, he proposes.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Almost as soon as I entered the house, I singled you out as the companion of my future life.

• 18:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  He tells Elizabeth all the reasons this marriage would be a good deal for her.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Like, obviously financially.

• 18:37Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, he knows she's not inheriting anything, but she can't bring herself to make the practical choice and rejects him.

• 18:45Speaker 03

  Her mom's gonna crash out.

• 18:47Rund Abdelfatah?

  She does. She calls her Headstrong.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Headstrong, foolish girl.

• 18:52Rund Abdelfatah?

  With no idea what's best for her.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  But I will make her know it.

• 18:56Rund Abdelfatah?

  Then she runs to Mr. Bennet, screaming.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Oh, Mr. Bennet, you must come and make Lizzie marry Mr. Collins. Mr. Bennet raised his eyes from his book as she entered. And what am I to do on the occasion? It seems a hopeless business. Speak to Lizzie about it yourself. Tell her that you insist upon her marrying him. Mrs. Bennet rang the bell, and Miss Elizabeth was summoned to the library. Come here, child. I understand that Mr. Collins has made you an offer of marriage. Is it true? Elizabeth replied that it was. Your mother insists upon your accepting it. Is it not so, Mrs. Bennet? Yes, or I shall never see her again.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  An unhappy alternative is before you, Elizabeth. From this day, you must be a stranger to one of your parents. Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins. And I will never see you again if you do. Elizabeth could not but smile.

• 20:03Rund Abdelfatah?

  I absolutely love this scene because this moment when her father backs her up, it tells her, not only do you have the right to choose,

• 20:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:10Rund Abdelfatah?

  but your choice is right, which confirms for Elizabeth that she really does have the world all figured out and that she's amazing at reading people.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  I sense a but coming up here, though.

• 20:23Rund Abdelfatah?

  Coming up, everything Elizabeth thinks she knows and we know will be turned upside down.

• 20:36Speaker 05

  Hello, this is Bryce Gailing from Tenth Ohio, and you're listening to Throughline by NPR.

• 20:42Speaker 03

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• 21:44Speaker 03

  Boyd in Florida.

• 21:46Rund Abdelfatah?

  Part two. Are you allowed to change your mind?

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Till Elizabeth entered the drawing room at Netherfield and looked in vain for Mr Wickham along the cluster of redcoats there assembled. A doubt of his being present had never occurred to her.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Is this another ball? Is this all these people do?

• 22:07Rund Abdelfatah?

  This one is spicy, I promise.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  I'm ready for spice. I want to hear it.

• 22:12Speaker 07

  Balls are a big deal in Jane Austen novels because it's a way of meeting possible partners. In a world in which you're not supposed to really be alone in the company of a young man if you're a young woman, unless you're engaged. And I think it's got quite a sort of erotic voltage, actually.

• 22:35Rund Abdelfatah?

  So Elizabeth has just arrived at Netherfield, the estate Mr Bingley owns, where he's hosting a private ball, meaning invite only. Elizabeth is really excited to see Mr Wickham again, that soldier she's into. But then she overhears someone say,

• 22:49Speaker 02

  I do not imagine his business would have called him away just now if he had not wished to avoid a certain gentleman here.

• 22:57Rund Abdelfatah?

  He's not going to show up because he's avoiding Mr Darcy.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Because they got beef, right?

• 23:01Rund Abdelfatah?

  They got beef. And in the middle of complaining to her best friend about Mr Darcy, guess who shows up to ask her to dance?

• 23:08Speaker 03

  I guess he dances now.

• 23:10Rund Abdelfatah?

  Well, Austin, she's let us, the reader, know that he's been secretly pining for Elizabeth since the moment they met.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Without knowing what she did, she accepted him.

• 23:21Rund Abdelfatah?

  Elizabeth has no idea why she says yes. A detail I love, by the way, because who hasn't made, you know, an impulsive decision like that and then questioned their own mind?

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 23:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  Anyway, her friend tries to console her.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  I dare say you will find him very agreeable. Heaven forbid. That would be the greatest misfortune of all, to find a man agreeable whom one is determined to hate.

• 23:46Rund Abdelfatah?

  Then the dancing begins.

• 23:50Rund Abdelfatah?

  At first, they're not talking. They're just moving in silence. And then Elizabeth decides.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  It would be the greater punishment to her partner to oblige him to talk.

• 24:00Rund Abdelfatah?

  So she makes some small talk. Darcy responds with a few words, not a man of a lot of words, and then goes quiet again.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  She addressed him a second time with, "It is your turn to say something now, Mr. Darcy. I talked about the dance, and you ought to make some remark on the size of the room or the number of couples." He smiled and assured her that whatever she wished him to say should be said. "Very well, that reply will do for the present, but now we may be silent. Do you talk by rule, then, while you are dancing? Sometimes one must speak a little, you know."

• 24:37Speaker 03

  I can't tell if they're flirting or arguing.

• 24:40Rund Abdelfatah?

  Look, they're definitely sparring, and I think Austin is trying to tell us that intellectually, they're on the same level.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 24:46Rund Abdelfatah?

  But then Elizabeth brings up Mr. Wickham.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  The effect was immediate. A deeper shade of hauteur overspread his features.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Yo, that shot's fire.

• 24:57Rund Abdelfatah?

  Oh, yeah, she's trying to push his buttons.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  "I remember hearing you once say, Mr. Darcy, that you hardly ever forgave, that your resentment, once created, was unappeasable. You are very cautious, I suppose, as to its being created." "I am," said he with a firm voice. "And never allow yourself to be blinded by prejudice." "I hope not." "It is particularly incumbent on those who never change their opinion to be secure of judging properly at first. May I ask to what these questions tend? Merely to the illustration of your character."

• 25:35Speaker 03

  She is not playing around.

• 25:37Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, this, this whole scene, you kind of feel like they're doing this dance. I mean, a literal dance, but also this kind of like verbal dance. And they're in their own universe. Everyone else is just white noise. And, you know, right after this, you get this sense that Darcy's pretty conflicted because he's very into her. But thinks her family is pretty embarrassing. Her sisters are flirting with everybody. Her mom is openly gold digging. And he even tells his friend Bing Lee not to marry Elizabeth's older sister Jane.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 26:09Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mm hmm. But not long after the ball, he decides to shoot his shot with Elizabeth and proposes.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  How does that go over?

• 26:16Rund Abdelfatah?

  She's totally blindsided. And like the way he proposes, he's basically like, you know, I've tried really hard not to be into you because you're poor and your family is trashy. But I can't help it, I love you. Which I think he thinks is romantic, right? Like against all odds, I love you. But Elizabeth is basically like, oh, okay. Thanks for telling me all the reasons I suck. And she flat out rejects.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Good for her, honestly.

• 26:42Rund Abdelfatah?

  Her exact words are, I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed on to marry.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  What a way to say like, you know, piss off, right?

• 26:52Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah. I don't think there's anything he could have said in that moment that would have made her overlook the fact that Darcy totally messed things up for her sister.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:01Rund Abdelfatah?

  And remember, Wickham's words are still in her head that Darcy is a cheat.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, this dude's like a villain.

• 27:06Rund Abdelfatah?

  He's definitely a villain in her mind. And he's completely oblivious to that. But I think there's something in the way that she says it that's really striking to me, right? She's like, you are the last man on earth I'd ever marry. So I think what Austin is telling us is like, she senses this connection they have. And she's trying to just like push it down because her head is telling her something totally different.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  So, okay, I feel like Jane Austen is like tapping into something very real that many of us experienced here.

• 27:41Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  And is that like kind of what Jane Austen is signaling? That she's tapping into something personal?

• 27:47Rund Abdelfatah?

  I've wondered a lot about this, too. It's the million pound or million dollar question, right? This is Devany Louser. She's a professor of English at Arizona State University. And she has a new book out called Wild for Austin, A Rebellious, Subversive, and Untamed Jane.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  That's a very good title.

• 28:05Rund Abdelfatah?

  It is. She told me that Austen's love life is kind of a mystery, like a lot of other things about her. But we do have some clues about where she might have drawn inspiration. From her earliest years, she was interested in fashion and balls. There are secondhand accounts.

• 28:21Speaker 03

  Third-hand accounts referring to her as a husband-hunting butterfly and a flirtatious young woman. Now, this is weird because she never got married.

• 28:30Rund Abdelfatah?

  Well, OK, so she never got married, but that wasn't always a given. You know, like when she was young, pre-teen, teen years, she had a bunch of random boys who were passing through the house because her dad had students, you know, stay with them. So she's doing a lot of observing, probably flirting. And we don't know how many proposals she got, but we do know she definitely got at least one. She was engaged for, you know, less than 24 hours, but still, and then she broke it off.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  She sounds messy, man.

• 29:01Rund Abdelfatah?

  Again, why I think there was a scandal in those burned letters.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:04Rund Abdelfatah?

  Anyways, there was also this supposedly four-week whirlwind relationship.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  To call it a relationship is probably a bit much.

• 29:12Rund Abdelfatah?

  Lizzie Dunford again.

• 29:13Speaker 04

  I would say it's a flirtation.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  He is a very gentlemanlike, good-looking, pleasant young man.

• 29:19Rund Abdelfatah?

  This is how Austin described the guy in her letters. He was an Irishman named Tom LaFroy.

• 29:25Speaker 04

  She describes flirting and dancing with him, and then she says he's going to go away.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  At length, the days come on which I am to flirt my last with Tom LaFroy. And when you receive this, it will be over. My tears flow, as I write, at the melancholy idea.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  He's like her Darcy, it sounds like.

• 29:46Rund Abdelfatah?

  I mean, look, that's a whole fanfiction universe around that question, but the truth is, we really don't know.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  Nah, he's her Darcy. I'm like psychoanalyzing Jane Austen now.

• 29:56Rund Abdelfatah?

  Well, we all are. I mean, that's all we know about her love life. Apparently, as she got older, she seemed to be less interested in playing social chess and preferred to observe it.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  There's one brilliant bit with the letters, when she's in her mid to late thirties, she's going to a ball, and she said, "All I get to do is sit by the fire with a glass of wine, and then that's going to be great because I don't have to worry about it."

• 30:16Speaker 03

  That sounds like Elizabeth Bennet now.

• 30:19Rund Abdelfatah?

  She probably would have seen that actually as a huge compliment. Um, she loved Elizabeth, called her as delightful a creature as ever appeared in print in one of her letters.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  Huh.

• 30:29Rund Abdelfatah?

  Um, which, you know, it's not to say that she thought Elizabeth was perfect. Uh, she's super smart. She's not blindly following all the rules and, and, you know, there's like a badassery about her.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:41Rund Abdelfatah?

  But she, she can also be like pretty quick to judge and even petty at times.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  But I think there's an appeal to that, right? Like she's flawed in that way. She's kind of mean, but she's real.

• 30:52Rund Abdelfatah?

  And I think above all, she's also able to self-reflect and actually change if the facts call for it, which I think that's where a lot of people fall short, right?

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:06Rund Abdelfatah?

  There's this great scene after Darcy proposes where Elizabeth and we, the readers, have to confront some big questions. She goes for a walk early in the morning and she's kind of spiraling, thinking about that proposal. And suddenly she spots Mr. Darcy walking toward her. He hands her a letter and walks away.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  With no expectation of pleasure, but with the strongest curiosity, Elizabeth opened the letter. Be not alarmed, madam, on receiving this letter by the apprehension of its containing any repetition of those sentiments or renewal of those offers, which were last night, so disgusting to you.

• 31:50Rund Abdelfatah?

  And so in this letter, he's basically saying, forget that whole proposal thing. I just want to clear up a couple of things.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 31:57Rund Abdelfatah?

  And the first thing is why he talked Mr. Bing Lee out of marrying her sister Jane.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  I remain convinced that though she received his attentions with pleasure, she did not invite them by any participation of sentiment.

• 32:11Rund Abdelfatah?

  He just didn't believe Jane loved Mr. Bing Lee and was worried she was taking advantage of his naive, nice friend for his money.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  That's not that far-fetched considering like how much her mom talked about money and his money.

• 32:24Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah. And, and Darcy, he mistook the fact that Jane's shy and reserved as indifference.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  With respect to that other more weighty accusation of having injured Mr. Wickham, I can only refute it by laying before you the whole of his connection with my family.

• 32:41Rund Abdelfatah?

  Then he tells Elizabeth what went down with Mr. Wickham. Wickham had burned through his inheritance and then took advantage of Darcy's much younger sister and almost convinced her to elope with him to get to her money. Elizabeth is shocked.

• 32:56Speaker 07

  She reads it and reads it and rereads it.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  She grew absolutely ashamed of herself, of neither Darcy nor Wickham could she think, without feeling that she had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.

• 33:12Speaker 07

  Blind, partial, prejudiced. It's like, you know, when you think I've been such a fool and idiot, a moron. And then the final word is Elizabeth's sort of word for herself, absurd.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  How despicably I have acted, she cried, I who have prided myself on my discernment. Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind. But vanity, not love, has been my folly. Till this moment, I never knew myself.

• 33:42Rund Abdelfatah?

  Till this moment, I never knew myself.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  That's a bar.

• 33:46Rund Abdelfatah?

  It is a bar. It's the, it's the key line because Elizabeth is actively changing her mind about Wickham and Darcy at this moment, but what's much more important in some ways is how she's coming to see herself. And after this, Elizabeth spends the rest of the book working on herself.

• 34:03Speaker 03

  I will say this, it's kind of refreshing because it feels like today, we don't really allow this space for people to kind of change their minds. It's like cool that this is such a main thread in this story.

• 34:19Rund Abdelfatah?

  Oh, yeah. It's, it's, it's really, I think, the, at the heart of the book, which you're right, like nowadays. The idea of someone changing their mind about something in a pretty dramatic way would be seen more as like even a defect or weakness, I think, by a lot of people.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  100%. I think I've thought that way more when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've realized that in fact, people changing their minds, that's actually like strength. And I, and I think a lot of times people are impatient with that. You know, I've had even people with, tell me like, you know, why are you always changing your mind about things? And I'm like, there's new information. I'm gonna take that in and then think differently about it.

• 34:57Rund Abdelfatah?

  I think Austin would be a fan of yours.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 34:59Rund Abdelfatah?

  Cause I think she'd be like, we're meant to evolve and like happiness and growth hinges on our ability to give other people and ourselves the grace to do that.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  But in terms of the story though, all right, so Elizabeth.

• 35:14Rund Abdelfatah?

  You're into it, huh?

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Yo, I love mess and I love gossip and this is like feeding all those parts in my brain. Cause I wanna know, did she ever go back to Darcy and like give him a second chance?

• 35:26Rund Abdelfatah?

  All right. So it's a few months later.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  All right.

• 35:28Rund Abdelfatah?

  Um, Elizabeth is visiting an aunt and uncle. They live in a town a few hours away and they're not far from Mr. Darcy's estate. And her aunt and uncle, they have no idea what went down between them and they really wanna take a tour of Darcy's estate. It sounds weird, but that was a normal thing people did.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  So this is like the MTV Cribs moment of the book.

• 35:50Rund Abdelfatah?

  Kind of, yeah. And Elizabeth only agrees because she's told Darcy is out of town and there's no chance of running into him.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  Hmm, I see where this is going.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Elizabeth, as they drove along, watched for the first appearance of Pemberley Woods with some perturbation. And when at length they turned in at the lodge, her spirits were in high flutter.

• 36:19Rund Abdelfatah?

  It's a beautiful estate. It makes Mr. Bingley's estate look like small potatoes. And the housekeeper is their guide through it, who, it turns out, admires the hell out of Darcy.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  I have never had a cross word from him in my life. And I have known him ever since he was four years old.

• 36:36Rund Abdelfatah?

  This is kind of surprising, right? I mean, he's a rich guy who could easily treat his staff like garbage.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Which is probably normal, then.

• 36:43Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mm-hmm. But he doesn't, you know? And, and between learning that and the letter, she's just really confused. Her mind is racing. How did I get him so wrong? And right in that moment.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  So abrupt was his appearance that it was impossible to avoid his sight.

• 36:59Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mr. Darcy unexpectedly shows up.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  Surprise, surprise.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Their eyes instantly met, and the cheeks of each were overspread with the deepest blush.

• 37:09Speaker 07

  The two of them blush deeply. It's the only time in all Jane Austen's fiction, a man and a woman blushing unison.

• 37:15Rund Abdelfatah?

  They make small talk for a bit. The tension is palpable.

• 37:19Speaker 07

  And after, there's this passage, which takes place entirely in Elizabeth's head, where she's going, oh, no! If only we'd left 10 minutes earlier.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  We, why?

• 37:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  I think she's embarrassed at everything. Her misjudgment, the way she rejected Darcy so coldly. And the fact that she's touring his house. Neither of them really knows where they stand with the other person.

• 37:43Speaker 07

  What, in a way, Jane Austen's letting you see is this kind of sliding doors moment, isn't it? If they'd left 10 minutes earlier, they wouldn't have met.

• 37:53Rund Abdelfatah?

  But in this version of reality, Elizabeth is about to get a few more big surprises. That's coming up.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Hi, this is Rob from Arlington, Virginia. You're listening to Throughline from NPR.

• 38:10Speaker 07

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• 39:31Speaker 00

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• 39:36Speaker 00

  Part three. Is it all about the Benjamins?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Good God, what is the matter? Cried he.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Elizabeth hesitated, but her knees trembled under her. And looking so miserably ill that it was impossible for Darcy to leave her or to refrain from saying, in a tone of gentleness and commiseration, let me call your maid. Is there nothing you could take to give you present relief? A glass of wine? Shall I get you one? No, I thank you, she replied, endeavoring to recover herself. There is nothing the matter with me. I am quite well. I am only distressed by some dreadful news which I have just received. She burst into tears as she alluded to it and for a few minutes could not speak another word. Darcy, in wretched suspense,

• 40:35Speaker 02

  could only observe her in compassionate silence.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  At length, she spoke again. I have just had a letter from Jane with such dreadful news. My younger sister has left all her friends, has eloped, has thrown herself into the power of, of Mr. Wickham. They are gone off together from Brighton. You know him too well to doubt the rest. She has no money, no connections, nothing that can tempt him. She is lost forever.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  So Elizabeth's sister got with Mr. Wickham? Is that what's happening?

• 41:15Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yes, yes. So, okay, we're finding all of this out at the same time Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy are, right? Elizabeth gets this letter. It tells her that Lydia, her 15-year-old sister, who's staying with some relatives, came across Wickham. And, you know, he's a scumbag, right? Remember what Darcy said about him? And he took advantage of Lydia and convinced her to run away with him. We can connect the dots and assume they've had sex, which is a big no-no.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  Okay, so, you know, it makes sense why Elizabeth is freaking out here.

• 41:45Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, this is disastrous for the whole family, you know? So she tells her uncle what happened. He sets off to try to find Wickham and Lydia. Darcy also went looking for them, and he finds them first. He actually ends up quietly bribing Wickham to marry Lydia properly to avoid a scandal and kind of save the Bennet family. And then Lydia shows up back at home, a wife, happy as ever. Lydia Bennet is a very lusty young woman. And what happens to Lydia? She's absolutely unchanged and seemingly unashamed. And I think that is a very brave choice on Jane Austen's part. That, too, was a part of ordinary lives. The sister who chooses to walk on the wrong side of the polite path.

• 42:30Rund Abdelfatah?

  I appreciate that, Austen. She's kind of showing us these different ways that different people are coping with the very real constraints of their finances and, you know, of the society's rules. Elizabeth's best friend, Charlotte Lucas, she marries Elizabeth's weasely cousin, Mr. Collins. You remember him?

• 42:48Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yes, yeah.

• 42:49Rund Abdelfatah?

  And she does that because, you know, she's not the prettiest and he's offering her a stable, financially secure life.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  Austin is basically saying like, let people live their lives.

• 42:58Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, and, and, and, and the fact that like it's Darcy who's the one who bails out Lydia and Wickham, I think is very important because remember who, who we thought he was at the beginning, right? He's like snooty and high minded and I should say, he doesn't tell anyone. And the only reason Elizabeth finds out is because Lydia lets it slip and then she pries it out of her.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  So he's not even doing is say like, look, I saved the day.

• 43:23Rund Abdelfatah?

  No, he's not. And, and he does a similar thing with Elizabeth's other sister Jane. He tells his buddy, Mr. Bingley, look, I was wrong. Jane is into you and Mr. Bingley finally proposes to Jane.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  What I wonder is, was this who Mr. Darcy was all along? Because there's tension now between that concept of like first impressions and also people changing.

• 43:45Rund Abdelfatah?

  I mean, I think it's a great question. Um, he, I think has changed in significant ways.

• 43:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:52Rund Abdelfatah?

  I think him and Elizabeth have been humbled by life. So I don't think it's that she totally had him wrong at first, or he totally was wrong about her family being a little trashy. But they managed to like find space to accommodate the things they don't like. And also change in themselves, the things that were sort of holding them back from being able to be like fully with the person.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  A lot of times in at least like modern romance stories, it can be kind of like, men are bad and an obstacle. Whereas in this case, he's like a complicated, uh, male figure that kind of comes around.

• 44:29Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah.

• 44:30Speaker 03

  It's interesting.

• 44:31Rund Abdelfatah?

  I think often Austin is read as like a feminist book, which like in some ways definitely it is. But I, I don't think that means that it's a man hating book. And I think that's an important difference. And ultimately she's saying both men and women are capable of changing. So like it's only then, when both of them have worked on themselves, that Elizabeth is finally able to admit to herself that she's in love with Darcy.

• 44:55Rund Abdelfatah?

  What's interesting is no one knows this. Her friends, her family, even Darcy, they don't realize this. She's kept it close to her chest. But, um, throughout the book, Austin is dropping hints that the town gossips are speculating that Elizabeth and Darcy might be engaged already, you know, as gossips do. It takes on its, a life of its own, right? I think she's commenting on that too. Anyway, so that gossip finds its way to Lady Catherine de Bourgh, Darcy's rich and overbearing aunt.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  This is not gonna be good.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  One morning, their attention was suddenly drawn to the window.

• 45:33Rund Abdelfatah?

  Out of the blue one day, Lady Catherine hops in her carriage and travels for hours to knock on the Bennetts' door and have it out with Elizabeth.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  She entered the room with an air more than usually ungracious, made no other reply to Elizabeth's salutation than a slight inclination of the head, and sat down without saying a word.

• 45:54Rund Abdelfatah?

  She then demands a private word with Elizabeth.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Miss Bennet, you ought to know that I am not to be trifled with.

• 46:02Rund Abdelfatah?

  She tells her, "I hear what people are saying."

• 46:04Speaker 02

  I know it must be a scandalous falsehood, though I would not injure him so much as to suppose the truth of it possible.

• 46:12Rund Abdelfatah?

  And she's come to settle things, once and for all.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  "If you believed it impossible to be true," said Elizabeth, coloring with astonishment and disdain, "I wonder you took the trouble of coming so far."

• 46:26Rund Abdelfatah?

  She believes that Darcy and her daughter should be married, and her had they been engaged since birth.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  "They are descended from the same noble line. They are destined for each other. And what is to divide them? The upstart pretensions of a young woman without family, connections, or fortune. But it must not, shall not be. If you were sensible of your own good, you would not wish to quit the sphere in which you have been brought up. In marrying your nephew, I should not consider myself as quitting that sphere. He is a gentleman. I am a gentleman's daughter. So far, we are equal."

• 47:10Speaker 02

  It certainly doesn't mean economically equal, but I think it does mean intellectually equal. And what this book shows us...

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Is how attractive a man is, not only because he's got land and money, but because he appreciates a woman who is smart and funny. Mr. Darcy could have anyone, but he goes after this woman who is his intellectual equal.

• 47:34Rund Abdelfatah?

  When Darcy catches wind of his aunt's visit, he immediately goes to see Elizabeth. The fact that she didn't flat out deny the allegations gives him hope that maybe Elizabeth has changed her mind about him. So, you know, in this like beautiful, early morning scene, there's dew on the plants, the sun just peeking out over the horizon. Darcy and Elizabeth, they meet while walking.

• 47:57Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 47:58Rund Abdelfatah?

  He proposes again, and this time Elizabeth accepts.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  OK, this is like romantic and everything, but like it, it's pretty convenient that Elizabeth and her sister just both happen to fall in love with some both very rich guys.

• 48:19Rund Abdelfatah?

  OK, so Austen is, she's aware of that. And she actually pokes fun at it at the end of the book. One of the very last scenes, Jane, Elizabeth's sister, and her are sitting together talking. And Jane asks, when did she know that she loved Darcy? And Elizabeth says, when I saw his house at Pemberley. It's totally a joke, right? But the truth is, it is pretty lucky that he happens to be super rich and her soulmate. So all their problems are solved and she's happy. It's a fantasy on some level. But Austen is letting us imagine this world where love and happiness is born of true equality.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  Equality. This is a word that meant so much in this period.

• 49:08Rund Abdelfatah?

  It was kind of the word that defined Jane Austen's life and, and her books. Remember, she was born in 1775. So the American Revolution and the French Revolution both happened during her lifetime.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  Fraternity, equality, liberty.

• 49:23Rund Abdelfatah?

  These kinds of conversations were in the air. And by the time Austin died in 1817, she was 41.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  She was young.

• 49:32Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, it was some kind of illness. But you know, the world was going through huge technological and ideological changes. There were these big debates around what liberty and equality meant.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  This is very interesting, Comrade Austin over here. But I don't feel like we get any of this context in Pride and Prejudice, right?

• 49:53Rund Abdelfatah?

  So it's not explicit, but keep in mind, this would have been the water people were swimming in during Jane Austen's time. They would have understood that wealth was tied to exploitation, factories, colonies, slavery.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:06Rund Abdelfatah?

  Austen would have known that, too. Some of her relatives benefited from the slave trade and a couple of her brothers were abolitionists.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  But like, by not addressing it more directly, see, I struggle about this. Like, is that kind of a cop out or is that like show, don't tell art?

• 50:23Rund Abdelfatah?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:23Speaker 03

  You know?

• 50:24Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, so this is something scholars still debate. And when I was researching this, I came across this essay. It's a well-known essay by Edward Said, who, of course, you know, but for our listeners, I'll say he's a famous Palestinian-American thinker. We have an episode about him, if you want to check it out in our archives. But so he wrote this essay, it's a chapter in his book, Culture and Imperialism, where he argues that, you know, Austen, by focusing on the domestic world of these privileged elite, she's risking normalizing the system behind it, whether or not that's her intention. And I've given this a lot of thought. And the way I see it is, you know, she's writing what she knew.

• 51:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:07Rund Abdelfatah?

  The small P politics of her daily life, especially, you know, around women. And when you look closely, like, she's exposing, she's mocking even, like, if you think of that Lady Catherine scene, the whole system. And again, like I can, I can see the critique that like, maybe it's too subtle. But I do think it's in the adaptations, especially very easy for the complexity of all this to get lost.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  I tend to agree with Professor Said over here, honestly, but I also know that like when you write something or you make something, whether it's a song or a book or a podcast or whatever it is, right? At some point, it's not yours anymore.

• 51:53Rund Abdelfatah?

  Right.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  Because it's had so many different kinds of lives based on who is reading it and who's kind of adapting it.

• 51:59Rund Abdelfatah?

  And who's branding it, right? Because especially in the more recent decades of its life cycle, right? It's gone through a lot of branding. And what I think you'll find interesting actually is that this whole idea of Austen as chick lit is pretty new. That's how I think a lot of people think of her. And you know, Lizzie Dunford, she told me that up until like the 1940s, 50s, men and women read Austen pretty equally.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Really?

• 52:28Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah. And then actually, okay, so this is fascinating. In the 60s, you've got the women's liberation movement happening. Women are going to university more. And marketers wanted to push Austen books to all these like university women. And so they started actually publishing Pride and Prejudice. It was a campaign with pink covers. It was like a very specific, like this is for you, women, you know?

• 52:50Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 52:50Rund Abdelfatah?

  Like this is your, you know, empowerment.

• 52:52Speaker 03

  Right out of Mad Men.

• 52:53Rund Abdelfatah?

  Don Draper would have been behind this campaign, I guess.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, 100%.

• 52:58Rund Abdelfatah?

  And, and then you get to our childhood era, right? The 90s, 2000s, you start seeing a bunch of TV and movie adaptations that are really like pandering to the female gaze, right? So like in that 1995 adaptation, which is probably the most classic one. You've got Colin Firth, you know, and there's a scene where he's coming out of the lake. At this time, I guess they swim fully clothed. But anyway, but he's coming out of the lake with this like white shirt drenched, sticking to him. And it's kind of see through.

• 53:31Speaker 03

  You remember this in great detail here, Ron.

• 53:34Rund Abdelfatah?

  Listen, it's pandering to the female gaze, okay? That would do nothing for you, like a straight man. But you know, I think what all of these sort of iterations point to, it comes back to what you were saying. The story has lived many lives.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:50Rund Abdelfatah?

  And I think it's more a reflection of, you know, the period you happen to be living in. It's a book out of time. It's a weakness and it's strength, right?

• 53:59Speaker 03

  It just makes you think like, man, what would Jane Austen have made of all this?

• 54:05Rund Abdelfatah?

  I don't know. I mean, maybe she'd just be floored that an AI Darcy exists.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Wait, there's an AI Darcy?

• 54:10Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, man, look it up.

• 54:12Speaker 03

  I'm not looking to look it up. I'm not.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  OK, so I have to say, this entire conversation, it's been surprising. It's much more layered than I expected it to be, to be honest. I just thought it was silly, fun, romance stuff.

• 54:30Rund Abdelfatah?

  Yeah, I think a lot of people get that impression, right? From, again, especially the adaptations, which, because it does sound like I've convinced you, you're gonna have to watch one.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  You know that I hate letting you win anything, right? Like, in anything.

• 54:45Rund Abdelfatah?

  And yet I win so often that I would think that you would have gotten used to it by now.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  But listen, no, you convinced me. I have to admit it. And I'm going, you know, I'm a gentleman and I will honor the terms of this bet. So I think, after all this, I still am gonna go with the Bollywood version.

• 55:03Rund Abdelfatah?

  Good choice. I haven't watched it in a while, so I'm excited to rewatch.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  I also want to get Rumi to watch with me.

• 55:08Rund Abdelfatah?

  What 10-year-old boy wouldn't love this? Wait, maybe we can get Rumi to be on the Throughline Plus episode with us.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  He would love it.

• 55:16Rund Abdelfatah?

  Oh, I'm so excited. All right. Well, I guess this is TBD until you and Rumi and I rewatch. And then I'll meet you on Throughline Plus, right? For our, for our debrief. And we hope to see all you listening there, too.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Y'all not gonna want to miss that, I think. That'll be fun.

• 55:42Rund Abdelfatah?

  And that's it for this week's show. I'm Rund Abdelfatah.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  I'm Ramtin Arablouei. And you've been listening to Throughline from NPR.

• 55:49Rund Abdelfatah?

  This episode was produced by me.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  And me and. Lawrence Wu.

• 55:53Rund Abdelfatah?

  Julie Kane.

• 55:54Speaker 03

  Anya Steinberg. Casey Minor.

• 55:57Rund Abdelfatah?

  Kristina Kim. Devon Katayama. Irene Noguchi. The voice of Jane Austen was played by Holly Hales.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  Fact checking for this episode was done by Kevin Vocal.

• 56:07Rund Abdelfatah?

  This episode was mixed by Jimmy Keely. Music for this episode was composed by Ramtin and his band, Drop Electric, which includes. Navid Marvi. Cho Fujiwara. Anya Mizani. Thank you to Johannes Dergi, Beth Donovan, and Tommy Evans.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, please write us at [email protected] or hit us up on Twitter at Throughline NPR.

• 56:35Rund Abdelfatah?

  Thanks for listening.

• 56:40Speaker 00

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