Why Your Company Should Own Its AI Model | E2278

This Week In Startups is made possible by: Quo - https://quo.com/TWiST Vanta - https://vanta.com/twist Pilot - https://pilot.com/twist Plaud - https://Plaud.ai/twist Today's show: *Eragon CEO Josh Sirota believes that you should "own your intelligence." He demos a live enterprise AI operating system connecting email, Slack, calendar, and financial data into a single agentic layer that's pre-trained to understand any business inside and out. PLUS we've got IONA Drones founder Etienne Louvet, a first look at Moonshot's Kimi K2.6, and a brand new Off Duty with JCal and Lon. FULL SHOW NOTES ON NOTION: https://thisweekinstartups-docket.notion.site/TWiST-2278-SHOW-NOTES-34872ca918e380bd9c71e684ce2db7c9?source=copy_link Guests : Eragon: https://eragon.ai Josh Sirota on X: https://x.com/joshua_sirota IONA: https://ionadrones.com/ Etienne Louvet on X: https://x.com/etienneldva Relevant Links Eragon Seed Round coverage: https://techcrunch.com/2026/03/18/this-startup-wants-to-make-enterprise-software-look-more-like-a-prompt/ Neurometric: https://www.neurometric.ai/ Ollama model: https://ollama.com/ Orange Slice: https://www.orangeslice.ai/ Corgi Insurance: https://www.corgi.insure/ Slash Financial: https://www.slash.com/ The Syndicate: https://thesyndicate.com/ FAA Part 108 Explained: https://pilotinstitute.com/part-108-explained/ Zipline: https://www.zipline.com/ Google Wing: https://wing.com/ Joby Aviation: https://www.jobyaviation.com/ Enterprise Ireland: https://www.enterprise-ireland.com/ Éire Composites: https://www.eirecomposites.com/ Kimi K2.6 blog post: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k2-6 Kimi K2 series on GitHub: https://github.com/moonshotai/Kimi-K2 NVIDIA GB300 NVL72 work station: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/gb300-nvl72/ Timestamps: 0:00 Josh from Eragon AI joins the show 2:01 Plaud: If your work depends on conversations — interviews, meetings, calls — you need a Plaud NotePin. You can check it out at https://Plaud.ai/twist and use code TWIST for 10% off! 5:07 Why founders should own and control their data sets 8:33 What is a "company world model?" 9:48 Quo (formerly OpenPhone) - Quo gives you a clean, modern way to handle every customer call, text, and thread all in one place. Try it free at https://quo.com/TWiST 11:32 Eragon demo 15:55 Giving agents their own bank accounts 19:07 Inside Eragon's first partnerships 20:14 Vanta - Get $1000 off your SOC 2 at https://www.vanta.com/twist 25:50 How does Eragon make money? 29:11 Pilot - Visit https://www.pilot.com/twist and get $1,200 off your first year. 39:33 Etienne Louvet of Iona Drones joins the show 42:37 What is FAA's Part 108? 47:13 How innovation in drones impacts the aviation industry 50:26 Working with Enterprise Ireland 58:28 Jason attended the Breakthrough Awards 1:04:10 Doug Liman's AI-powered "Bitcoin" movie 1:09:09 "Love Story" on FX and "Dust Bunny" on HBO Max 1:13:10 Jason's love of tinned fish Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp Follow Lon: X: https://x.com/lons Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis Check out all our partner offers: https://partners.launch.co/ Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Check out Jason's suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jason Calacanis?

  Hey, can we just have a better CEO than Jason? Can we have a better board of directors than your board of directors? Because they have all information. You're saying now you're building that, Josh.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. What we're calling this is a company world model to make that vision true. An algorithm that can actually have the right reward functions.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  We can get up to 20 parcels in the drone.

• 0:23Jason Calacanis?

  Forty plus pounds. Holy cow.

• 0:26Speaker 03

  If you're already doing logistics, you could just add drones to your fleet.

• 0:29Jason Calacanis?

  This is kind of like going from level two autonomy to level four.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 0:34Jason Calacanis?

  It's happening, folks.

• 0:36Speaker 04

  This Week in Startups is brought to you by Pilot. Focus on your product. Let Pilot handle your bookkeeping. Pilot provides the most reliable accounting, CFO, and tax services for startups and small businesses. Head to pilot.com/twist and get $1,200 off your first year. Vanta. Compliance and security shouldn't be a deal breaker for startups to win new business. Vanta makes it easy for companies to get a SOC 2 report fast. Get $1,000 off for a limited time at vanta.com/twist. And Quo. Quo, formerly OpenPhone, gives you a clean, modern way to handle every customer call, text, and thread, all in one place. Try it free at quo.com/twist.

• 1:18Jason Calacanis?

  Hey, everybody. It is 4:20. Lon Harris is here. He is ready to go. Yeah. And it's Twist. And we got a full docket. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I do Monday and Friday. I do some Wednesdays.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  You do here on Wednesdays.

• 1:32Jason Calacanis?

  And the This Week in Empire is growing. This Week in AI drops on Wednesdays. We also put half the show into the This Week in Startups feed just to tease you a little bit, give you a taste. You get your first 30, 40 minutes. And then we remind you, hey, go over to the This Week in AI show and subscribe there.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Like a dealer. The first half is free, and that's how we get you.

• 1:54Jason Calacanis?

  Sure, sure. A 4:20 perfect analogy.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:58Jason Calacanis?

  And we got a lot of important things going on. There's a lot of notes you're going to need to take. This Week in Startups, our core pillars are tactical and practical and experts only. Those are the first two pillars. And when you have tactical, practical information and experts only on the show, man, this means you're going to get a lot out of it as a founder. So I want to just take a minute for plaud. I'm wearing it on my wrist today. I've been enjoying my wrist. And I just pressed this little button, Lon. And oh, the red light's on.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29Jason Calacanis?

  And now, if I think of something, oh, the next this week in show that we're gonna launch, uh, soft launch in a couple of weeks, uh, make sure that, uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Oh, we're not giving it away.

• 2:40Jason Calacanis?

  And that we blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is what I sent in text today. But I will do this frequently to myself and I did it when I was on the road.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:47Jason Calacanis?

  I was on my way to the breakthrough prize. I'll talk about that in off duty. We always do off duty at the end of the show. Um, and, uh, I'm wearing this thing and just, I'm going through airports. I'm on a plane. I'm getting my Starbucks, bing, da, da, da, da, da. I give my go-to, I give my action items. Now, when it goes into the tray and I charge it, which you only need to charge this thing. What, what are you charging, like every 10 days or something?

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, that's, that's one of the standout things. Once a week, I remember to drop it in that charger and that's all. I, otherwise it stays, uh, just on my, on my suit jacket right here.

• 3:18Jason Calacanis?

  And if you want to get a Plod, we have an ideal for you.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, if your work relies on conversations, we want you to get a Plod Note Pin S. You can check it out yourself at pilot.ai/twist and just use the code TWIST and you'll get 10% off on your Plod Pin.

• 3:32Jason Calacanis?

  Let's get to work.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:33Jason Calacanis?

  Let's get our first guest on. We'll do off duty. I'll talk a little bit about, um, the venture training program I've launched in Austin. And I'm going to talk about the venture training program.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  We got so much news today too. Pat Palantir had their big statement. Moonshot launched Kimi K 2.6. So much to talk about.

• 3:52Jason Calacanis?

  There's a lot to talk about. But when we get to off duty, two things. I'm gonna talk about the breakthrough prize, the science prize with unlimited celebrities, the most powerful, uh, investors, founders in the world, all in one room. Somehow I, I made it in. I'll explain that. Uh, three or four besties were there. And, and I'll also talk about our venture training program. I've now made it six seats because there's so much demand. We've a couple of hundred people applied already. So I'm gonna get 600 applicants. I'm gonna pick the top 1%. And we'll talk about that at the end of the show.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:23Jason Calacanis?

  But let's get to our first topic.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:26Jason Calacanis?

  And our guest.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  It's our guest. We're bringing on Josh Sirota. He's the CEO of Aragon, Jason.

• 4:31Jason Calacanis?

  I know him.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  They're sort of an enterprise version of OpenClaw, maybe, an AI operating system for enterprises. Their big concept is they want to help companies own their intelligence. So they're connecting a company's existing tools and data to custom models that have been trained on their data and purpose-built autonomous agents. So Josh, thanks for being here.

• 4:52Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, great to see you. So, you know, I always like for the founder to tell us why they're creating this, how much it costs, who are the customers, and do a demo. So let's get to work. Why did you build it? Who are the customers? What does it cost? And let's demo it. Demo or die here on Twist.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Okay, amazing. Let's do it. So as far as like why we built Aragon, basically like our view on the, you know, on what's happening right now is as follows. So you are taking a frontier model. And as we saw with OpenClaw or Hermes or different other innovations, there's been a lot of research and a lot of work that has went across these harnesses around these frontier models. And basically for us to be able to execute all of these tasks inside of companies, what we're doing is collectively creating these memory systems with these like .MDs

• 5:51Speaker 01

  and trying to basically pull all of this into the context of a model. And so what you see is if you look at the number of tokens in the world, it's like 1,000x input tokens versus output tokens. And lots of workflows, like I don't know if you guys saw Uber's CTO just said that they blew past their whole budget,

• 6:11Jason Calacanis?

  Yes.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  for six already in April. So it turns out that even with all of these innovations in harnesses, it's actually like quite expensive, depending on the workflows that you want to do, to try to pull into context, you know, everything that you need into the model. And so what our view is and like what we're researching is basically

• 6:34Speaker 01

  An RL algorithm that can actually take a lot of the things about your company and have those things be in the actual weights of a model that you own, that's specific to you and your company, that can update itself overnight. And therefore, it actually begs the question of like, okay, you know, do you, what do you need to use the frontier kind of closed source models for? Versus like, what can you actually own on top of a lot of your proprietary data sets? And so that's kind of why we started this, which is we just think there is a huge amount of like inefficiency as far as how we're executing tasks. And we don't necessarily think you have to use these frontier kind of closed source models, right, for everything.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  And what we do is basically like have this RL piece that can actually take certain parts of your company and put it into the weights of a model that you own. And therefore, like our whole slogan is actually own your intelligence, right? This should be your own.

• 7:34Jason Calacanis?

  I think that this is exactly where things are going. I recently tweeted like, hey, we're on a bit of a collision course. And we were talking about SLMs just last week with Rob. Small language models can be produced and run on local hardware. And if they have all your data in it, well, what becomes the difference between an open claw and all these skills being made that then go have a context window, have memory, or it all being dumped directly into an SML you own? So you take your entire sales database, you take your entire Slack, you take every email, and you put it into this SML. And this is the, the vision of Ultron we had 80 days ago.

• 8:19Jason Calacanis?

  We're sitting here in AO 84, I think, at Lon. Correct. And we were like, hey, can we just have? A better CEO than Jason. Can we have a better board of directors than your board of directors? Because they have all information. And you're saying now you're building that, Josh.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I think like a couple of things to add there is like what we're calling this is a company world model. Uh, most of my team is, uh, you know, ex-deep mind and, and, you know, PhDs from Berkeley Air Research Lab. And a big thing on the frontier side in research is really RL, right? Reinforcement learning. And what doesn't exist yet is like to make that vision true is an algorithm that can actually have the right reward functions and be able to update the weights of the model. Um, you know, in a frequency that actually makes sense for a business, right? So instead of like updating, you know, this model once every like three months and it costs a lot of money.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  You know, can this model actually update itself overnight? Based on the interactions that it has with people.

• 9:28Jason Calacanis?

  Where do you run the model? What models are you building this on? Kimi, uh, DeepSeek? What, what, what do you use as your foundational model to then merge? What's the term when you put the data in for my company every night? What do you call that? Is it a build? Is it post-training, pre-training? What, what, how would you explain this? Details matter. Building a great company is all about paying attention to details and they add up along the way. That's why today's episode is brought to you by QUO. Q U O. The smarter way to run your business communications. And I use this product. We love it at launch. Why? Well, I don't want my sales team using their personal phones. I want them to have their own phone number.

• 10:10Jason Calacanis?

  For some phone numbers, we want there to be one phone number that we can put at the bottom of an email, on the bottom of our website, so that no calls get missed. And it's so much easier to service an existing customer than it is to find a new one. And QUO is the way to do that. They're being used by over 90,000 businesses. Everything from solo operators to at-scale teams love QUO. And it works wherever you are. Android, iOS, desktop, it's going to work everywhere. So sign up for QUO's smart system and make sure no more opportunities slip through your fingers. Try QUO for free and get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com/twist. That's Q U O dot com slash twist. QUO, no missed calls, no missed customers.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  So the, this is all called like post-training. It all falls into the category of post-training. And then the mech- the method is called RL, Reinforcement Learning. And as far as the model that we've found that has like, you know, very good kind of base is Kimi. So we're also very excited for all of the announcements that they're going to be making. And as far as the concept, right, it actually doesn't yet exist to do the updating. This is what's called continuous learning.

• 11:21Jason Calacanis?

  So demo or die time, Josh, let's do it.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Okay, let's do it, guys. All right, so I think first thing that we can go through is you guys had just brought up, you know, not checking email. So like one workflow, that's a pretty straightforward workflow. I receive, I think, probably like 200 or 250 emails a day. I find my email to be quite unusable. Most of this is things that actually are not, you know, relevant to my day to day. So if we just go in and say like, you know, hey, um, what's the latest from email that I need to get back to? Right? We can do this. Simultaneously, we can do concurrent tasks at once.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  So if I want to also go ahead and, um, can you see from the Alexander Chapman Slack? Can you read all the candidates that they have sent us? And make me a dashboard of our candidates that we are speaking to.

• 12:29Jason Calacanis?

  Great. So this was, this is a strong demo here. You are exporting the entire Slack corpus every night, every week, or using the API? Or you have an agent in that room? How do you get the data out of there into the model? I'm curious.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  So basically, what we do is we run like a cron job at a frequency of about, you know, every 15 minutes. And so every 15 minutes, we'll have Kimi, for example, go and read everything that I get in my Slack across all of the different channels. And then it will go ahead and take all of that information. And then we create, uh, you know, we use Chroma, we use Olama, and it'll put that inside of this Chroma DB, right? And now it'll almost have like a recreated knowledge base, if you will, of our Slack. So we'll do things like this.

• 13:13Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. And is that more stable and a better way to do it than like OpenClaw? We've, with OpenClaw, with Perplexity Computer, with CoWork, we find it's

• 13:24Jason Calacanis?

  Not comprehensive, it gets confused at times. And in one conversation I had with my open claw, I was like, you should just export the entire database every Saturday night and, you know, upload it or something. And that doesn't seem like a really great strategy. So how do you know it's comprehensive and, you know, not so brittle?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So like, this is kind of like the wow moment, like why, you know, companies like Deal, why Slash, why Corgi, you know, basically are running almost a ton of different workflows actually on Aragon. Is because you don't have to, for example, specify, like, I was just, we had to fly to New York. We're doing a really exciting partnership with a very exciting ERP company. And they said, for example, oh, can you, can you make an MSA? And can you send it to Josh? And then they realized, they're like, oh, wait, I didn't say Josh from Aragon. Right? But, but Aragon actually knew, it sent it to me, right? And like, they're like, whoa, that's like, really, really cool. It's like, actually, it's that good.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Where like, I can even on first time, I can say, hey, just send it to Josh. Right? And it by itself, the way we've architected it, it'll go look at calendar, it'll go look at, you know, recent, right? And it will basically say, okay, it's Josh at Aragon is who we're talking about here. Versus like, almost anywhere else, it will ask you and say, oh, which Josh? Here are five different Josh's, for example.

• 14:47Jason Calacanis?

  Do you?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Right?

• 14:48Jason Calacanis?

  Okay. So all of this then gets rolled up into the model on some cadence? And then, Chris, this reminds me of like, a lot of things I do with Open Claw or Perplexity. But when it's in the model itself, do you have an example where it's in the model? And that provides a massive lift for the company? Like, what's the most compelling example of that?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  For example, okay, two things. So one is like, okay, I just went through probably, in this case, like, I don't know, maybe 50 emails or so. So we have to act now. So the node Kozla wants to meet, Nikki's is EA, we need to respond back with different, you know, availability, et cetera. Like, that's a pretty important one, right? So great, we should probably tell the node when we're available to chat about Aragon. But here, for example, Milton is our cleaning service for the office. Can you go ahead and pay? The Milton invoice for me is, and I can have Aragon go and actually pay that invoice as well. And so in the

• 15:56Jason Calacanis?

  So that speaks to the agentic nature of this and the hooks. You have it hooked into a bunch of different sources, I take it. So it's your QuickBooks or your PayPal or your Venmo?

• 16:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, it also has a financial infrastructure too, Rog. You parted with Slash to allow enterprises to give their agents bank accounts. So this is one of the cases where like the agent sort of has a little bit of financial agency.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so then the thing that we are working on with like our partners is also building out this ecosystem inside of Aragon. So for example, coming very soon, you'll be able to do a backslash, right, slash. And then there, you know, they're, they provide credit cards. They provide, you know, bank accounts. They're like, you know, a Brex competitor, if you will, right? And how do you actually, you know, issue credit cards for these agents? How do you actually set, you know, different policies, different limits, you know, for the cards that you issue these agents? You want to do it in like a secure, kind of centralized

• 16:51Jason Calacanis?

  Sure. Human in the loop, maybe. Maybe only pay certain known accounts. So, you know, this is all part of like the blocking and tackling 101 that these agents need to catch up on. So you're really competing directly heads up with OpenClaw, Perplexity Computer and Quad Co. work on the interface for agentic computing. But then on the backend, I keep getting back to the, you know, the SLM, the small language model you're building. Cause that to me seems like there would be some massive lift. So show me something there or, you know, unlock that for me. Cause that's what I haven't seen in the demo yet is that unlock.

• 17:33Jason Calacanis?

  And by the way, man, this is just another startup I should have invested in. Oh, wait. I'm on the gap channel of this company. You started. Uh, while you're, while you're getting cooking there, if I remember correctly, just agents for sales and you were so far ahead of everybody, right? This is two years ago or something. Agentic sales was like kind of the first ICP?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, exactly. So we basically uh, kind of started there and then pretty much uh, we did like our pre-seed with um, you know, A16 and a few others. And what we found when we started showing companies was like everyone wanted to ask for different, I would say like sources to be able to come into Aragon outside of maybe just sales. And it became pretty clear to me like actually, you know, from like a venture model, everyone wanted to verticalize. But like the power of these like frontier models, you know, just kept getting better and better and better and better. And it begs the question of like, are we going to have such a thing as like a vertical, kind of like a sales, you know, agent? Or are these going to be so powerful that you can just create, right?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Like a sales agent just from inside of Aragon and have like Aragon be like your source for all sorts of different, you know, specific agents. And then what we decided to do is actually go to a partnership ecosystem approach where for companies that are going really deep. So I'll shout out, you know, Orange Slice. It's a YC company. Um, they've done a phenomenal job. They're like a clay alternative. And we have companies like Corgi that basically will do like all of their enrichment natively inside of Aragon. And then that's powered behind the scenes by uh, Orange Slice, right? Where they went really deep there. And so then that's kind of the approach that we've been taking as well.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  So while this, while this cooks, just as far as, you know, the point on this RL piece and updating the weights behind the scenes. So basically, um, what it's going to do is like, for example, all of your sales, right? If, if you look at, or, or all of the guests that have been on this week in startups, let's just say.

• 19:35Jason Calacanis?

  Sure.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  So these are all facts. This is all historical. This is all already happened, right? And so like, we just did this pretty fast. I would argue like it would be, you know, an order of magnitude faster than anywhere else. And then also on the cost side, right? It'd be much cheaper to do inside of here as well, right? And so here is like for our recruiting, right? Now I have my dashboard here for all of the candidates that we're speaking with, right? Awaiting response, you know, follow-up, uh, source, so we're sourcing, you know, Minks from Stanford. Strynath from any scale, etc. This is actually all real. This is all production. We run Aragon inside of Aragon.

• 20:14Jason Calacanis?

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• 20:59Jason Calacanis?

  And Vanta is that great product and they're that great partner for your startup or a large company and big enterprises. Twist listeners get $1,000 off at vanta.com/twist. That's V A N T A dot com slash twist for $1,000 off.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  And because it has in the weights, because it's updated itself, it doesn't need to go for that, like basically workflow and read all of my email, read all of the Slack.

• 21:28Jason Calacanis?

  Right. So it should be lightning fast.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 21:32Jason Calacanis?

  And it should be incorporated into its logic at a more base level. Explain to the audience, you know, if they've heard the word weights over and over and over again, but explain to them, given your product.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 21:46Jason Calacanis?

  What that means for, let's call it like if Uber had your, had Aragon, they had an SLM, they had the entire history of the company, every quarterly report, every employee had ever been there, every single Slack message for over 10 years, every, or they made an S, or maybe they make multiple SLMs. There's one SLM just for complaints and customer support, one just for, you know, code, etc. Because I would assume that. At some point, you might break it up and have 10 SLMs by verticals so that they were even more tweaked. Am I correct in that?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  You're absolutely, absolutely correct. Yeah. So you'll, you'll actually have multiple. And so what it means for a company like Uber is basically two things, cost and performance. So for the first thing, on cost, right? It, let's say you have some sort of like workflow that requires knowledge of like all of your customer success, you know, documentation, for example. So instead of basically a harness, uh, trying to pull all of this context into a frontier model every single time, right? That info will just be in the weights. And what that means is, um, much less tokens, like a hundred times less tokens will actually have to do that.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  So therefore it's way more cost effective. On the second piece, which is like the speed and performance, uh, the workflow will be done much faster, right? Like 10 times faster as well. And so the best way, you know, the audience can kind of think about this is if you go to a frontier model and you ask it, you know, who is Abraham Lincoln, for example? Imagine if in order to answer the query, a model would have to open up a browser use, go search Google, go pull all of the info.

• 23:41Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, we don't have to imagine it because sometimes it does that, right? It's so, sometimes there's some breaking news story or like, tell me about Coachella Weekend 2 and Madonna's performance. And it's like, okay, searching web and you know, that's going to take 60 seconds. And that's why you turn notifications on.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  But actually, actually, so for that, that's, that's a little different, right? So like, for example, for like the Abraham Lincoln, right? I'm saying it, it doesn't have to go and do that, right? And the reason why is because it was trained on who Abraham Lincoln.

• 24:09Jason Calacanis?

  Correct.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  And so it's in the weights, right? So for a company, right? If you want to find out, for example, um, you know, like, how did we grow over 2019 to 2024? Something like this. All of that's historical, it's already happened, right? Instead of right now, you have to. Go and you have to read every single record, every earnings, every quarterly statement from those, you know, 2019 to 2024. And then that might take actually two hours, right, for a model to do. And that might actually cost you like 1,500 bucks, right? All of that info should just be in the weights. It should be instant. The model should be trained on this. It should know that, right? For things like what you were just mentioning, which is like very recent, you know, for example, like a Coachella.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Like you should still be able to do tool calls and go search the web for like info that maybe is not inside of the weights of the model. But those things are like, you know, much faster, kind of lower token usage and far, you know, and a little bit more few between, right? So our view is basically in order to actually own your intelligence, to have an asset that the company owns, that's

• 25:17Jason Calacanis?

  Love it.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Something that is theirs. The only way to actually do this is to train a model on your proprietary data and then give you the weights, right? So you own it. It's yours. And that's what we're working towards.

• 25:31Jason Calacanis?

  It's genius. What does it cost? How do you charge for it? This is always very important and it's always a great tell for a founder, for me, Lon, when I'm working with a founder. How crisply they can explain the business model here. We'll give it a shot here with Josh, who is a very, I would say, very strategic founder in my experience.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  So we charge by tokens. We have a $5 cost per million tokens blended. And so you can comp that with what Anthropic charges, which is like $15 per million tokens for Opus. So it's $5 per million tokens.

• 26:06Jason Calacanis?

  Amazing. And how would that compare to using a frontier model?

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Uh, it's anywhere from, you know, a third to like, you know, half the price.

• 26:17Jason Calacanis?

  And they pay a service fee as well? Do they have to pay something for this integration? I would think you would need forward deployed engineers type of thing to do this today. So talk to me a little bit about when you have a cutting edge project, product like this, the implementation. Because if you went into Uber, now it's like, okay.

• 26:38Jason Calacanis?

  You could boil the ocean here. That company is a wash in data. So you probably have to find a department that wants to do it. You probably have to find a data set. You got to clean a data set. You got to create a process for it being updated. Talk to us a little bit about what Aragon does there.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  So what we do is we do have a forward deployed motion and we do start like to your point on identifying workflows and use cases where you can start. So I can give an example of Corgi, which is a very fast growing company. I don't want to know. They might have announcements of their own. I don't know coming out about a different, different maybe rounds. So they're a very fast growing company in Silicon Valley and they do insurance. They're an AI native insurance basically carrier. And so what we did is we said, okay, hey, like, what is your inference costs look like right now? You know, from like a frontier perspective?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Shout out to Corgi. And basically, they told us how much they were spending, right, on inference, basically with frontier. And so we said, okay, look, we can actually do this for probably a third of the price. Like, and they're like, okay, that's very interesting. And so then it was like, all right, let's find a workflow that currently happens. It's like very repetitive and manual and let's start there. And so the example of that is we're on their website now. You can actually go and basically request a quote. And what would happen before is when you go request a quote, a startup puts in different information about their company. So like Aragon, you know, our stage, our funding, you know, revenue, et cetera, et

• 28:15Speaker 01

  cetera. Right? And you'll go and, you know, fill, finish this workflow. Basically, you would put in all of this information. And afterwards, what would happen is, you know, there's a lovely person in operations. Her name is Evelyn. She would take all this information. She would then manually figure out like what coverage you need, what policies you need. And then they had an algorithm that they would put that in to give you an actual quote. Right? And imagine doing this like 40 times a day. That was her whole day. And so now what happens is all of that goes into Aragon. Aragon is trained on the policies they have. Aragon is trained on the coverage they have. Aragon is trained on kind of how they underwrite, right?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  So all of that comes in end to end. And then Evelyn gets a WhatsApp saying, hey, Josh from Aragon just requested a quote. Here's the policies you need. Here's the quote. Do you want me to go publish it to his dashboard? Yes or no?

• 29:09Jason Calacanis?

  Wow.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  And all of that is now done.

• 29:11Jason Calacanis?

  For an accounting firm, keeping your books in order is table stakes. It's the bare minimum. It's the baseline. But for an early stage and serious A founder, you need a partner that actually understands the world of startups. It's very different. And you have to understand the world of venture capital because startups have boards and venture capitalists who've invested. And that partner is Pilot. Pilot is the largest accounting firm that's built specifically for startups. You're not just doing your taxes. You're getting CFO level advice on running your company. And those aren't just words. They have actual former CFOs and other seasoned operators on hand to answer your growth and scaling questions directly. All of their tools are intuitive. They're easy to use.

• 29:53Jason Calacanis?

  You can track your expenses in real time and Pilot's going to help you model cash flow scenarios before you make big decisions. So stay focused on scaling and let Pilot take care of the books. Plus, Twist listeners get $1,200 off their first year. Go to pilot.com/twist to get started. That's pilot.com/twist. So still a human in the loop. Obviously, you're shutting a proposal. You want to do that, but it's going to be done faster, better and cheaper. That's always the trifecta.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:21Jason Calacanis?

  That wins. And this is amazing. Congratulations. You went through the accelerator a year or two ago? Was it LA 34? I'm trying to remember which cohort it was.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  I think it was like maybe May or something of last year.

• 30:35Jason Calacanis?

  So it was 34, I think. Yeah. And yeah, great pivot in there. Some great new investors. You pulled through about half the companies that come through our programs pull through. We like to take a lot of risk. And I think I always track in our database now where we found somebody. You, I said, if you got rejected from YC, please email us. We'll, we'll take a look at your company. And you emailed us and

• 30:58Speaker 01

  I did.

• 31:00Jason Calacanis?

  I'm not dumb. We met you and we were like,

• 31:05Jason Calacanis?

  This kid's really smart. I don't know. I told the team, because I have my notes here. I don't know if this is the, he's going to be successful with this startup, but I know Josh is going to be successful. So let's start the relationship now. Josh, so proud of you. Congratulations and always let me know when I can be helpful to you. You have my phone number. You have my email. Always let me know if we can be helpful. I'm good for a retweet once in a while or a prescient introduction, but great job, Josh. I really appreciate you and it's just great to be in business with you.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Absolutely, Jason. It's been a pleasure. And for anyone in the audience, you know, that's listening, I think, you know, Jason and team has built an absolute, you know, world-class accelerator program. They've, you know, been tremendous, especially right in the early stage. You're, you're, you really, you have, you know, an idea and I think a lot of times for anyone in the audience, you know, we just announced our 12 million at 100, you know, seed, but everyone listening, like founders, everyone is just trying to figure things out. And I think that the best thing, you know, Jason and team, they really have an amazing, you know, structure and cadence and resources at the earliest stage for how you can like think through your business. And that was helpful for us and I would encourage everyone

• 32:18Speaker 01

  listening to absolutely reach out and maybe soon it'll be an agent on Jason's side that goes.

• 32:26Jason Calacanis?

  You cut me off at the pass, brother. I was going to say like, we are working on this now because, you know, when you get over 10,000 applications, we have a weighted system, speaking of weights. And, you know, Marcus is really talented, a young fellow I have working for me and he's been building this system. And what we found was with our AI, our weighted system does essentially the same job a human can do. It can identify that. Now, we still have to decide who do we meet with? And then after we meet with them, we have to make another decision. But what I really want your help with, Josh, this could be a great project for us, is to look back at our meetings and everything, put it into an S, a V S L M, very small language model on my laptop,

• 33:10Jason Calacanis?

  that I don't train, you know, OpenAI and Anthropic or Gemini on how to do what we do here, our secret sauce. But then, you know, just be able to say, hey, we missed some things. Because when we miss something, Josh, what I do now, if somebody just told me, Molly Wood, who worked for us for a bit and co-hosted with me for a while. She had found like a military tech company and I was like, oh, we don't do that. You know, it's kind of not what we do, but now we do do it. And two years ago, she found this one and it pulled through and it, you know, I don't know if it's raising a hundred million dollars now. And I was like, okay, if we missed it then, but we built a little relationship, what can we learn? Number one, number two, hey, let's go to the syndicate.com and we'll have a phone call with them.

• 33:53Jason Calacanis?

  Invite them on this week in startups and see if there is an opportunity for us to do a late stage investment, which the members of our syndicate love to do. Yeah, there it is. There's the syndicate.com. All right. We'll talk to you soon, Josh. Let me know if you're ever in Austin and we'll go grab some barbecue with Lon. Any excuse for Lon to get some Salt Lick with the Terry Black's beef ribs. You're not a vegan or something like that, Josh, are you? Please?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  No, no, we're definitely in for some, for some good Terry Blacks.

• 34:22Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I got the Terry Black's beef rib and brisket, very solid. But if you come out to the hilled country, I'll take you to the original Salt Lick. You gotta see it. It's very Texas. It's pretty, pretty Texas and they got bison ribs there. They got the bison ribs out of the Salt Lick. I broke a tooth, you know, I had this like 20 year, I'm an old man now, I had a 20 year. Crown. They call that a brew canal. Yeah, crown. You had a crown. You broke a crown. I had a crown. I'm just chewing on this beef rib, snap. That's how you know it's a good beef rib. Yeah. When, when unc loses a tooth, it's a good beef rib. Getting it, I'm getting it put back. It's getting put back. Totally worth it. All right. Good to see you, brother. I wasn't fishing for the endorsement, but I'll clip the heck out of it.

• 35:04Jason Calacanis?

  We're going to have our agent throw that up on the, the website right away. Already working on it. Here's my tweet. Pull up my tweet here. Predict skills dot M D and V S. Let me, I'm on it. I've got a typo there are on a collision course and it's going to be insane. Imagine legal, HR, marketing, et cetera, S M L. God, I gotta get that right. SLM paired with an open claw scale, running relentlessly and recursively, as he mentioned, on your Mac Studio, Dell workstation, madness, free, constantly improving intelligence. It's happening, folks. And I put a picture of this Dell Nvidia GB 300 desktop, which Michael Dell has not sent me yet.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  How dare he?

• 35:42Jason Calacanis?

  But I've been lobbying for it. I mean, I'm super excited for this future.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  I mean, that's, I think, to me, that's the crucial step. We've been trying to have the agents run in a sandbox in Amazon's rack somewhere. They need, they need to spread their wings. They need to get out there in the world. You gotta have your Mac Studio or your amazing Dell standalone system. That's where your agents need to go.

• 36:06Jason Calacanis?

  If we can get these, you know, working on a laptop, I don't know the 48 gig's gonna do it, but I think it'll be the 128 gig eventually.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:16Jason Calacanis?

  I'm going to upgrade everybody to a $5,000 laptop from whatever, $1,800, $2,000 one. It'll be $3,000. It'll cost me an extra three times 25, people, 75K for the next three years. So it'll cost me an extra 2K a month if it has a three-year lifespan. But just think about how wild it would be if everybody's laptop was just cranking. I mean, it's also dangerous and scary.

• 36:38Speaker 03

  It is, it is, but that, it's that recursive loop. It's that you, every time your agent does something, you're teaching it how to do that thing, and it's refining it over time. That's the crucial thing you miss out on if your agent can't really spread out and make its own sort of way in the world. Yeah.

• 36:54Jason Calacanis?

  Hey, anything going on on Polymarket? I got a polymark going for my Knicks tonight, or what's going on?

• 36:59Speaker 03

  I wanted to, so we should talk about this briefly, that Moonshot has launched Kimi K26. This is their, their most advanced open source model to date. It upgrades for long horizon coding, agent swarms, more proactive agents, claw groups, to which you can sort of bring in your own agents and skills from outside. But it did lead me to this polymarket, which I will share right now. The sharps are debating, when are we going to get K3? Here we go. So you can see, not a lot of volume, only about 30K in volume so far, because this is so new. But if you look at June 30th, the sharps are betting 50, now it's a 59% chance that we are going to get Kimi K3 by the end of June, which would be very exciting.

• 37:43Jason Calacanis?

  And we're at 2.6 or 7?

• 37:45Speaker 03

  2.6. We were on 2.5, 2.6 got released this morning, so we're just, everybody's just getting their first crack at checking it out.

• 37:54Jason Calacanis?

  People were kind of speculating here that it's really great at coding.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:59Jason Calacanis?

  And that's what everybody's focused on right now. Cursor's got a new model coming out. I saw they were raising a 50 million billion across the, across X.com, people were talking about that. You got Codex, you got Claude Code, Grok's doing great work there. They'll have some product coming out, I'm sure. It's just over and over and over again, we're going to see everybody get lightning focused. And there was, I heard that Sergey, who I saw Saturday night at the Breakthrough Prize, and I talked to him for a bit, my understanding is he sent a memo, is there like a Sergey memo that came out? Either this weekend or something, it got leaked.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:37Jason Calacanis?

  And you know, these memos are kind of designed to get leaked.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  According to the-

• 38:40Jason Calacanis?

  As I've always told everybody.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  According to the information, the Google co-founder said in a memo to DeepMind employees that, and here's the quote, "Every Gemini engineer must be forced to use internal agents for complex multi-step tasks."

• 38:54Jason Calacanis?

  Right. So they're dog fooding, they want them to, you know, catch up here and developers, developers, developers. Once you get recursive developers going,

• 39:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:06Jason Calacanis?

  it informs your whole product production. So people have been talking about, wow, it's incredible how much product is getting shipped out of Claude. Well, Claude focused on code, code then let them release more product, and then you get this flywheel going. The other companies are obviously trying to catch up with that.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Should we bring on our next guest?

• 39:28Jason Calacanis?

  Absolutely. Let's keep this train of experts only moving here. If you listen to Twist, you're going to get-

• 39:36Jason Calacanis?

  Practical and tactical and you're going to get to peek around the corner with experts.

• 39:42Speaker 03

  Only.

• 39:42Jason Calacanis?

  So that's what we're doing. He is the founder and CEO of Iona. They make fully integrated autonomous delivery systems for logistics operators. The idea, it's like a white glove drone service that if you're already doing logistics, you could just add drones to your fleet. Give it up for Etienne Louvet. Etienne, thanks for joining us.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

• 40:04Jason Calacanis?

  All right. So do you want to demo and show us what you've built? You want to talk a little bit about why you built it and who the customers are and what it costs?

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Definitely. I think the team might have the videos in the background.

• 40:15Jason Calacanis?

  I got some videos. We can pull up a video right now.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  Here we go then.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  And, and maybe before it even started, I can explain a bit like the origin story because it, it explains it all. Iona is an island in Scotland, the company. So I'm French. Unfortunately, I can't hide my accent, but we're located in the UK and Ireland as well as in, as in the US now. Actually sponsored today by Gradient, a coworking space in Tulsa because I'm, I'm doing some.

• 40:44Jason Calacanis?

  There it is. We got a plug in for Gradient. 195 francs per desk. Here we go. Use the promo code TWIST to get six francs or a panneau chocolat. No, wait, wait. It was in France or Scotland? Where?

• 41:00Speaker 02

  No, no, it's, it's in Oklahoma, actually.

• 41:02Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, Tulsa. Oklahoma. Okay. Shout out to Oklahoma. Yes. Beautiful shot video, by the way. It looks like you shot it with a drone.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  We have multiple. No, what Iona is doing is basically it's coming from a vision. You can be on the Isle of Iona, which is a remote island in Scotland. You can be an IT consultant with a Starlink, a Zoom, Slack and so on. But what you can't get access to is physical goods. So what we're building at Iona is the physical internet. It's also close to my heart because a part of my family is coming from rural places. And it's, it's solving this paradox because at the moment, when you have less than 500 people per square mile, for instance, in a location, that's 99%. Of the US, that's ninety nine percent of the world. And yet, our systems and logistics are optimized the way we were doing logistics a hundred years ago,

• 41:55Speaker 02

  with like a bulky delivery van delivering everything. So what we're doing is we're building the full autonomy stack for logistics operators to take that transition, which is crucial for them because unfortunately, they realize that the big tech are coming and that autonomy is the biggest opportunity for them, but it's also the biggest threat.

• 42:16Jason Calacanis?

  So this is, you're talking about the FedEx, UPSs, DHLs of the world? You're going to provide them with the infrastructure, so in other words, like a white labeled zip line in some ways?

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yes and no. So yes, in the sense of it's going to be a white label and it's going to be for logistics operators, but we're going to also reduce the threshold. At the moment, when a drone is flying in the US, without going too much in the jargon, it's flying on the regulatory framework that is made for aerospace. It means that it's extremely complex to manage. Part one oh eight is coming. It's a different regulatory framework. We have an expertise in that because one of the-

• 42:52Jason Calacanis?

  Part one oh eight is the number, did you say?

• 42:55Speaker 02

  One oh eight, yeah.

• 42:56Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  And part one oh eight is coming and it's a different threshold. And we have an expertise in that because we fly autonomously already in Europe and it's going to be the same system in the US. And what it enables is also to open the range of customers to also more local logistics operators, hospital, anybody with a delivery need.

• 43:15Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. And unpack part one oh eight for us. We can get, we can double click on you know, these kind of things here on the show. That's why we're here at Twist. So tell us a little bit about why part one oh eight is so different and transformative.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yes, it's a fundamental milestone. So in Europe, in two thousand and twenty one, we had a similar framework. For once, Europe was ahead, not for long. And the reality is, it just, it just unifies anyone around the way we think about drone delivery and the way we think about drones in the airspace. So what it does is that it's a risk assessment framework. And one of the co-author of the framework in Europe also inspired some of the rules for the FAA. So- What it creates in the world is that we have a common framework, a global consensus on the way drones should be implemented in the airspace.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Which means that we can finally have Europe, the UK, the US, and other part of the world joining around that. And in more details, what Part 108 does is, first, you don't need to be an aerospace manufacturer with what we call Part 135 to operate. So it uses the threshold and it creates a framework that is much more adept to a delivery with a drone, for instance. Because if you're not flying a 747, you shouldn't be regulated the same way. And what it does-

• 44:47Jason Calacanis?

  And my understanding is the BVLOS, I don't know how they pronounce that in the industry, Bevelos, I don't know. Is that how they pronounce it?

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Usually we say BVLOS here. But beyond-

• 45:00Jason Calacanis?

  Bevelos. Bevelos in French is a much more gracious way to say it. But this is beyond visual line of sight.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 45:09Jason Calacanis?

  So I think 107, because I've looked at these companies for 10 years, was like, hey, you can fly your drone if you can see it. But once you can't see it, then you get into, I think you tip into 108 ETN, am I correct? Yeah, that's the distinguishing factor here.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  It's true. So the BVLOS is, so it stands for Beyond Vision Line of Sight, so when you can't see a drone. It means that the drone has to be highly automated or autonomous. And the significant change in that is that it means that you can have multiple drones or aircraft supervised by the same team that doesn't have to be on site. Because if you don't have to see the drone, you can be in Tulsa and operate somewhere else as well.

• 45:55Jason Calacanis?

  This is key.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  So this is much greater.

• 45:58Jason Calacanis?

  So when we contextualize it, this is kind of like going from level two autonomy to level four. You know, if you're using autopilot and you've got to keep your eyes on the road, but when you get to FSD, like level four, Waymo, et cetera, you don't need to be paying attention. 107 LAN, you need a pilot.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 46:18Jason Calacanis?

  Like a plane and you need a line of sight. And then 108, you need an operator, which could be a group of people in Manila. You could have, you know, a thousand Athena assistants who could be very easily trained in this to know what to do. They could be anywhere. They could be getting paid a dollar an hour. They could be getting paid 30 bucks an hour.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  It's that level up. I mean, you think of drone operators as having that remote and they're looking and it's like, it's got to be above the tree line and oh, we lost contact with it and running after it. And it's going from that to like the air traffic control model where you could have a tower that's monitoring all of these drones and it doesn't have to be like a group of people that are actually watching the drone. It's obviously, we're going to have to get there before we're going to have drone deliveries happening sort of en masse. I mean, I guess my question would be like, is the goal ultimately just like unsegregated airspace, like drones are out there flying alongside every other kind of aircraft and we're monitoring them in sort of the same ways?

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. So what you refer to is what we call the piece is called the detect and avoid. A second piece is called the unmanned traffic management. I deeply believe that the way we will basically innovate in drones is going to affect general aviation later on because it's very hard to do unmanned traffic management for aviation. At the moment, 98% of the control towers in the US are understaffed.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  And it's not going to get better, to be honest, because it's a difficult job and because it takes a lot of time to train people. And that's something that we can also do with a drone natively because it's a bit like an autonomous system doesn't need a GPS. Well, it needs a GPS, but it doesn't need like Google Maps, basically. And it's a bit the same because we, the drones are autonomous, they can talk to each other. And because they can talk to each other, the scale in terms of efficiency is drastic. And this is where we go on the vision and I like this analogy. When you think about it, roads are a Roman technology from 3,000 years ago. And we should build a physical internet that doesn't rely on roads.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  We should build a physical internet that can transport anything anywhere.

• 48:26Jason Calacanis?

  You're building these in Galway, is my understanding. That is a great town. I haven't been there in 25 years, but I drove from Dublin to Galway. It's a college town.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:39Jason Calacanis?

  Is that right? You're building the drones in Galway?

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have.

• 48:42Jason Calacanis?

  Celtic Tiger here?

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have a manufacturer there. And the reason is Ireland in general is an amazing place for drones. They operate with the same regulatory framework than Europe, which is the one that will be common with the US in terms of the way we think about it. So great. But they do it extremely fast. And the fast pace of iteration is especially very important. So we can get the paperwork back sometimes in less than 30 days, when it takes up to six months in most places. So made us drastically more cost efficient.

• 49:18Jason Calacanis?

  Now, do you have any partners in logistics yet that you've announced?

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Yes, we work with a few, CMA, CGM in Europe. We have a.

• 49:26Jason Calacanis?

  What is that?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  CMA is one of the largest shipping company in the world. They also operate, they have Miami, Singapore and Marseille. And they also like acquired a number of companies. And so they have logistics needs. We're working with Welsh Group. We have an amazing neighbor in Cambridge in the UK. Welsh Group, that is a family owned business. And it's exactly what we're trying to depict as a vision. They operate a number of deliveries in Cambridgeshire. And we did a demo with them, a public demo. So we demonstrated the tech end to end, how does it integrate in their system and so on. And we have a few more exciting news coming very soon. Including with high profile partners.

• 50:12Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and for people who don't know, there's a great program, Enterprise Ireland. Give them a shout out. They used to, God, they've been around forever, but they used to even buy ads. And host startups from Ireland. Back in my Silicon Alley reporter days, Enterprise Ireland always was a big supporter of Silicon Reporter. And I think maybe even the early days of this week in startups. And they gave you, I think, ETN, a couple of million euro investment or grant? How do they do it these days?

• 50:44Speaker 02

  No, it's a it's a grant project that we have for manufacturing. That's the part in Galway. And and the reason is because there is a nice story also. We operate drones as well in Galway area. It's the area, so it's quite difficult to access. It's quite remote and there are a number of communities there. So we want to, we're working on the project to actually connect the islands and connect the number of remote places there and remote communities with Galway and with other cities in the.

• 51:13Jason Calacanis?

  Which, what, what do people most want to order? Like when you talk to your consumers, you know, you've got people in Galway. They're on farms, they're in rural areas. What do they most want to deliver? Is it just like I need coffee and milk?

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Well, I think this is what's interesting is it's not food, right? You guys purposefully are not doing like food delivery. It's like cargo, right?

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Yes, we're calling that segment the light cargo. So we know very well Manah, for instance, and we know quite well Google Wing and even some people at ZipLine. It's another segment. What I usually say is a drone is like a vehicle with wheels between a motorcycle and a 44 tons. Same philosophy, but not exactly the same tech. So what we do is significantly different. Like we have to get long range, so we go 60 to 120 miles with a significant volume. So we can get up to 20 parcels in the drone and a capacity to independently drop volumes. So we can do delivery one, delivery two, and then go back to base, for instance. So what we really, the sweet spot for us, and this is also why we're B2B,

• 52:18Speaker 02

  is whatever needs to be transported. At the moment, in those places, there is a cruel lack of accessibility for day to day items. We're talking about the parcels day to day. And it's something that affects actually even the purchasing power of local communities. And then we can actually scale that to medical deliveries, even groceries. It's true that the drone is a bit big. So if you want like coffee and milk, might be a bit of an overshoot, but we could do it.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  I got a bit.

• 52:49Jason Calacanis?

  What's the poundage here? How many pounds in?

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Up to forty-four pounds.

• 52:54Jason Calacanis?

  Up to forty-four, so that's significantly larger than the other folks out there.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  It's four-twenty, Jason. Our Taco Bell order might get up there. I don't know. We're close.

• 53:03Jason Calacanis?

  I don't know, that's a fair point, and there's a lot of tostadas coming.

• 53:08Jason Calacanis?

  Forty-plus pounds.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, up to four. The first version that we have is-

• 53:12Jason Calacanis?

  What distance can it do when it's at max load?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  At max load, the XL will need to be the one that you use, and in that case, it's gonna do sixty to eighty miles.

• 53:22Jason Calacanis?

  Holy cow. You can, but wait, sixty, eighty miles, which means twenty miles out, twenty miles back with a buffer?

• 53:29Speaker 02

  No, it's a, it's a straight line. So if you, half of that, a bit less than a half of that, if you want to back and-

• 53:35Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. So twenty, thirty miles, no problem. And then you gotta have room to come back. The FAA makes you keep fifty percent in the tank when you land, or something like that?

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Depending on where you operate, but yes, about. And the thing is, it's fully electric, so also what we build is, again, it's the full autonomy stack. So for instance, we also have demonstrated a prototype for loading and unloading the parcels autonomously. So you can have like an autonomous network. So you can do like delivery point number one, you load a few parcels, you unload a few others. Then you go to a backyard delivery somewhere, then you go back to another depot. Like you can really have a data-driven autonomous logistics network.

• 54:12Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. What, talk to me about charging, that's my final question there. It would seem to me, you know, we have supercharger stations, right? And you got zipline in some markets, you've got a bunch of people, Amazon is doing this. Should there be a common standard, a common infrastructure for charging drones? Or are we gonna just have a proprietary war now, where you're all flying drones everywhere? And there's no way to stop and recharge? Because if there were charging stations, they would not, I could put one on the ranch here for y'all. I could give you two acres, cut off a little spot, you come down here, there's, the noise won't be an issue, there's nobody in earshot. And they don't need to be on a highway, they don't need to be on-

• 54:54Jason Calacanis?

  The 405 in LA or 290 here in Austin. You can put these anywhere and you could all be recharging without having to go back to base.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  So I think I would slightly disagree with that because I think it's going in the way of innovation. The drones that you're thinking about, especially the zipline and everything, they're mostly multi-copters. So they have a very short range, a different type of technology. My drones, because they're doing logistics, they're extremely energy efficient. And it's not only because it's sustainable or whatever, it's because it's competitive. The more energy efficient you are, the less expensive you are on a unit cost basis. So I need to have a glide ratio. I need to have a wing, for instance. I need to have things like that. So when you see-

• 55:41Jason Calacanis?

  What do they call, because I know there's quadcopters, I know there's fixed wing. What do you call these ones that are the hybrid? Is there a technical industry term?

• 55:48Speaker 02

  So if it's an hybrid, it's called an hybrid. In that case, like when they have-

• 55:51Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, so technically it's a hybrid, got it.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:55Jason Calacanis?

  Is the technical name Lon for a hybrid?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Hors.

• 55:57Jason Calacanis?

  Hybrid, yeah.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Hors are like what we call the tilt rotor. And so it takes off vertically and it's transitioned to horizontal flight so that we can have the convenience of the vertical takeoff. But we have-

• 56:09Jason Calacanis?

  And the tilt rotor gets you the glide path. And that's what Joby is doing too for humans, yeah?

• 56:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's similar to Joby in some ways. So we have less propellers and it's of course not the same product, but-

• 56:21Jason Calacanis?

  So you're bigger than a zipline, smaller than a Joby is the way to think about it.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. Light cargo is like when you're in the middle. Joby is like the new helicopter, zipline is the new DoorDash, where like the new delivery van in the sky.

• 56:32Jason Calacanis?

  I love it. And what weight do you want to get to? Is there a goal that like, you know, you want to get to 150 pounds, 250 pounds? Be able to deliver, you know, something of a little more heft?

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you quote the famous Bill of Fur, never say never. But we're not targeting that segment right away because the majority, like what I like about my segment is that 99% of the streams are actually in that segment. So I don't want to over-optimize for the one time you need a plasma TV because you can probably wait for a delivery van or any other delivery-

• 57:09Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, plasma TV, that's a weird footprint, but yeah. If Lon's getting kettlebells, you know Lon's getting in shape here, so. Is that, is that- I've had a twist, no de-ganging, if you want to do some buff- AI slop of them, but if you wanted to deliver a set of kettlebells, you know, it could be 300 pounds worth of kettlebells and you just drop it off on Lon's house.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  But lower it slowly. Don't just drop it because that's dangerous.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Fun story about that. We were supported by a grant and we had to explain where we were buying kettlebells. And, and I had to promise, no, it's not for personal use. I'm not like just buying a gym with the grant money. Because we're testing propellers and if we can't find a weight to like leave the table on the ground, it's going to take off.

• 57:52Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. Love it. Kettlebells are multi-use. All right. Listen, E10, continued success and be safe out there, right? Safety first. That's what we always say here at Twist. Or if you're a Burning Man, there's a famous expression, Lon, safety third.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 58:09Jason Calacanis?

  First Burning Man's I'm at, there's like a bunch of signs.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  What's, what's first? If safety's third, what's first at Burning?

• 58:15Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, like have a good time, be creative. I was like, but they just.

• 58:19Speaker 03

  Number one.

• 58:20Jason Calacanis?

  Literally, these guys have this huge tower where they're doing aerial stuff.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:24Jason Calacanis?

  And there's a sign. It says, safety third.

• 58:27Speaker 03

  Vibes first, vibes above all. Yeah. We got so much news. We got off duty. There's a million places we could go. Did you want to talk about the breakthrough prize?

• 58:36Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, yeah. So a friend of mine, Yuri Milner, and his wife Julia do this incredible breakthrough prize every year. Show some photos here and I've been invited and this was the first year I've been able to go. And what's really nice about this is.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  Look at all these celebrities that were there. Salma Hayek was there.

• 59:01Jason Calacanis?

  Salma Hayek was there.

• 59:01Speaker 03

  Naomi Watts was there. Ben Affleck. Look at this.

• 59:04Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. I didn't say hi to any of them, but I had a really nice conversation with Gal Gadot.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 59:10Jason Calacanis?

  Gal Gadot. Yeah. And that was very nice. I spoke to Gal Gadot. I met Rob Lowe. I met Rob Lowe. We traded phone numbers with Rob Lowe. Julia Chastain was at the table next to me. Olivia Wilde, I saw her there. And then you just had like, just every, and Lionel Richie came up and did a version of, he sang. We are the world.

• 59:32Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 59:33Jason Calacanis?

  The my, I sat next to a woman named Frances, who's at Caltech, who won the Nobel in Chemistry. And we had a really nice conversation. I also, at my table was Darren Aronofsky.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Oh, the great filmmaker, yes.

• 59:46Jason Calacanis?

  Yes. And so I had a nice conversation with Darren because I went down memory lane with Darren. We're off duty here, so I can, I can chew the fat, well, I'm, I said, hey Darren, you don't remember this, but we met with Sean, who was in Requiem for a Dream back in the day. And I think he was also in Pi. He was the lead in Pi. I said, and you were doing a film. I had Silicon Valley Reporter. I was writing for Paper Magazine. I met you guys and we had a drink and then you were lamenting you needed to do screenings for Pi. And I, it costs like two or three grand to host a screening. So I did one for my magazine and you came and you did drinks after. Oh my God, it's incredible. And we had this like nice little thing and we started talking. He's doing a, a startup. You know, everybody who's in startups and venture capital wants to do movies. Everybody's in movies wants to do startups.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  Of course, of course.

• 1:00:29Jason Calacanis?

  And so we got to connect and then we talked about Ikiru. You know, one of my favorite Kurosawa films. I'm watching a documentary on Ikiru. Like a random, you know, I go down into the dark web, into like the crevices of, you know, people trading tapes on Reddit and all this craziness. And I look for weird stuff. And I found an Ikiru documentary. I don't know who produced it. It's in Japanese. Somebody took the time to put subtitles on it and they go through that film, which I love. And it says, what I'll recommend is Ikiru, this great Kurosawa film.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  It's often overlooked among the great Kurosawas because it's not a Samurai movie. People always focus on Yajimbo, Sanduro, Seven Samurai. They forget about, yeah, Ikiru and High and Low is the other one I really love that is not a Samurai.

• 1:01:17Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, that was during his High and Low. Yeah, there it is. He is on his swing. This is an incredible film about a guy who gets cancer. This will be my off duty for today.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:01:25Jason Calacanis?

  And he's, he worked in the government for 30 years. He gets cancer. He realizes he's never lived. Then he meets a young woman and they kinda, in the second half of the film, he decides, I'm gonna live a little. And he goes out and he starts drinking, has some fun, he's got stomach cancer, but he decides he's gonna live a little. And then I watched this documentary about it and they're like, talking about the lighting and they're talking about, if you do the office scene, or if you just go into Google Images, you can look for the office scene.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  I know the one you're talking about.

• 1:01:55Jason Calacanis?

  And in Icarus, the office scenes are incredible because they stacked all these books and all these papers. So if you look in the background, it's just nonstop. There's a couple of different images here, like right there behind him, you'll see stacks and stacks, no, stacks of paper right behind him. The photo, yeah.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 1:02:12Jason Calacanis?

  And they explained how they wanted to build these like towers of papers and he was approving them. They couldn't find them, so they went into Toho Studios archive of all the receipts and they brought them there with the dust on it, because somebody brought them and they took the dust off and cleaned them up. And Kurosawa had a conniption and was like, hey, guys, I want them with the dust. I want this to seem like the most oppressive place ever, where he's sitting there and, you know, people are complaining to him about, you know, getting approval. He goes and he decides he wants to do one thing in his life that just counts.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Jason Calacanis?

  One thing to spread joy. I'm gonna leave it there. Great film. So I spent a little time talking to Aronofsky about it and we were like the only two people in California.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Do you see this one?

• 1:02:53Jason Calacanis?

  Seamless film. It means to live.

• 1:02:54Speaker 03

  2022 Living, you should check it out. It is a British remake of the same story of Icarus. It starts, it stars Bill Nighy, but it's a retelling. He has a, he's a bureaucrat and learns he has a fatal disease and he decides to live for one day. Here, it came out in 2022. It was at Sundance.

• 1:03:11Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, wow. So anyway, I've been having my Hollywood moment these days. Two weekends in a row, I was in Hollywood.

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:03:16Jason Calacanis?

  And out with folks. And so that is my off-duty breakthrough prize. Just thank you for inviting me. But what I noticed, and I was talking to Francis about this incredible Nobel Prize winner, is the pace of science is moving so fast because of AI, that all the stuff we talk about here is extraordinary.

• 1:03:41Jason Calacanis?

  But the things they're doing in science and the breakthrough they're making, it's essentially, we can choose as a society where to point the AI gun. Right now, it's at developers. Okay, fine. Okay, it's at productivity. Okay, great. We're gonna make new backgrounds in Star Wars. And I was talking to Gal Gadot about this. And she said, the movie she's working on, instead of spending 200 or 300 million on it before promotions, P and A, she said, we can now do it for 70 million and everything's done with AI, except for the performances, except for the writing. And she said, I'm great with this, because, again, we're talking about CGI, like CGI, obviously you play Wonder Woman, etc.

• 1:04:21Speaker 03

  Is this the Bitcoin movie?

• 1:04:22Jason Calacanis?

  But you could lower the cost dramatically.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Was this the Bitcoin movie? She's in that Doug Liman movie that they're talking about a lot, about the history of Bitcoin, which they're doing.

• 1:04:31Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:04:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's, but it's...

• 1:04:33Jason Calacanis?

  By the way, she's tall. She is Wonder Woman. She is tall.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Jason Calacanis?

  And she's got presence, but she's also a lot of fun.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  But they're...

• 1:04:41Jason Calacanis?

  Things are moving fast now.

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  The way they're doing it, he's shooting it entirely in rooms on green screen, and then all the backgrounds are gonna be filmed in.

• 1:04:49Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, so that's the movie.

• 1:04:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Jason Calacanis?

  Pull up a story about it.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  Yes, I will, I will...

• 1:04:53Jason Calacanis?

  What you're talking about here. And I asked her, is it Ben Affleck's new technology? Because Ben Affleck was building something like this, and it was, no. But she said, I asked her, like, as an actor, what the future was, and this is what she was telling me about. And she said, you know, Jason, you know Jake, the thing here that is super compelling is because we are, you know, like, on the green screen, etc., and you strip everything away, she said, I can actually, you can focus on performance. Like, it's all performance. And, yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm trying to find a good image. They haven't released a lot of good images yet, but it's in a London soundstage. They're built, they're shooting the entire thing in a London soundstage, and this has gotta be it. It's called...

• 1:05:39Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, it is, because she said Casey Affleck.

• 1:05:41Speaker 03

  Bitcoin Killing Satoshi, a $70 million feature film, shot entirely...

• 1:05:45Jason Calacanis?

  The number matches.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  On a custom gray screen soundstage with AI-generated backgrounds and lighting. So all the backgrounds, all the lighting is all going to be done by AI. The only thing that's real is going to be the actors in front of this gray backdrop. They're shooting this right now. It's very timely that you're.

• 1:06:02Jason Calacanis?

  I was just reading about this. Technology, ask your, do you Claude, if you do Claude sidebar or your perplexity sidebar, you could ask it what technology platform they're using to accomplish this.

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  I already found it. It's a company called Acme AI and FX. They're building a new kind of network or background just to power this.

• 1:06:22Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, let's book them for the show. Let's get them on the pod this week.

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  It would be really cool to talk to them.

• 1:06:26Jason Calacanis?

  Get them on, get them on for Friday.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  I would love to talk about this.

• 1:06:29Jason Calacanis?

  So this is definitely the film she was talking about.

• 1:06:32Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 1:06:33Jason Calacanis?

  Her main point is, you know, we're going to be able, I guess this would be the counter to the end of the movie industry, the end of the film industry. There is going to be many more films made because of this. And, you know, the whole hand wringing, okay, I get it. Set designers losing their jobs. You know, FX people, maybe, you know, there's gonna, it's gonna be a bummer for a group of people. Just like it was a bummer when the typing pool went away, the messenger pool went away because of email and word processing. But at the end of the day, tell more stories. Okay, those people are going to have to adapt and do other things. And there'll be people who do it with sets, of course. But this does seem to me to be a counter to that. And then what if

• 1:07:15Jason Calacanis?

  these things could stay in theaters a little bit longer because there was many more of them?

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Jason Calacanis?

  We could see a kind of resurgence where people might get out of their seats and go to the theater because there's more adult fare. You know, like everything can't be Snow White, which she was in.

• 1:07:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, if you think about the variety, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's just like we've seen with so many other fields. It's, there's always going to be humans in the loop. AI can't make movies by itself. It doesn't know how to make a movie that would entertain anybody. You use AI to do certain functions and speed things up and make things cheaper to allow the creative people to do more with the creative side. I mean, I wanted to make a horror movie years ago with my friend and we felt like on the bare minimum, a practical budget, just. To get the locations, just to make the costumes, just to do the makeup and stuff. It's like a hundred K. So imagine if we could just step into a room, we'd still have actors, you'd still have makeup artists, you'd still have the bare bones, but.

• 1:08:13Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, but you might cut it fifty K.

• 1:08:14Speaker 03

  You wouldn't need, we wouldn't need to take all the actors to some real location. You wouldn't need to pay all of these people like a production designer. And so, yeah, they're on the balance, there's some jobs being taken over by AI, but it also allows for a whole movie to get made that might otherwise not. And a human movie written by people, starring people, made by people. So we're not talking about it. I think that was always what led people astray. It was all those tweets where it was like Hollywood is over. Sorry actors and all that stuff. It's like, I don't think AI is ever going to replace the creative people. It's going to give them more tools to make more and bigger things.

• 1:08:49Jason Calacanis?

  Correct. And so absolutely great for Hollywood. You got anything else off duty here?

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. So much stuff.

• 1:08:57Jason Calacanis?

  I started watching, by the way, The Love Story.

• 1:09:00Speaker 03

  Oh, right. The Ryan Murphy. Yeah, the Ryan Murphy thing.

• 1:09:03Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. So the wife and I are watching that. We're two episodes in and man, it has got me nostalgic for New York in that period. I mentioned on the show before I got to meet JFK Junior twice. And it is just like in one scene, they're going to the Four Seasons restaurant with the pool in the middle. There's a party there. I remember going there many times. And another one, they were at another place that I've been to a bunch of times. I forgot what the scene was, but I was like immediately like, oh, I've been to that restaurant a bunch of times.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  That's always the appeal. That's what Ryan Murphy and that crew do so well. Like, if you remember that OJ Simpson show, the American crime story one? It was the same with LA in the nineties. They recreated it so carefully that if you were there, you were like, this is bringing me right back to this like time and place and moment. Yeah, which is part of the fun, for sure. Part of the fun.

• 1:09:52Jason Calacanis?

  It is definitely. And then, oh, and they were playing Bjork and stuff like that. You know, I've talked about like, you know, that here before. But yeah, there are just tons of interesting shots of like his loft, which I remember.

• 1:10:07Jason Calacanis?

  Was on Walker Street and then there's a bar, Walker's, Bubby's, the Odeon, Tompkins Square Park, the Guggenheim, what else were they at?

• 1:10:22Jason Calacanis?

  So it's just like really in Doshin, like these were all places I went in the early 90s.

• 1:10:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Jason Calacanis?

  So I'm just loving it.

• 1:10:34Jason Calacanis?

  The Odeon's still there, Bubby's still there, Walker's still there. So those three are still there. And he's also, you know, at a gym. I'm not sure what gym he's at when he's there. And they also show him.

• 1:10:46Speaker 03

  It's all real. They do their research and they get everything sort of just right. And that, that definitely helps make the show feel more compelling.

• 1:10:54Jason Calacanis?

  Northmore Street, that's what it, Walker's is on the corner of Northmore and I think Sixth Avenue. And there's a Calvin Klein's office. And I was literally speaking to David Geffen, the famous music producer, a week or two ago. And we were talking about the film and he gets a shout out in the first episode that Calvin Klein is, you know, taking a phone call from David Geffen, the music producer. It was really cool.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 1:11:20Jason Calacanis?

  What else do you got off duty? You got, you must have something to, and so anyway, I'm two episodes in. It's great. I think it's great couples watching because it's a love story.

• 1:11:27Speaker 03

  Yes, there, there is a movie on HBO Max that just popped up. It's Brian Fuller, who people remember he did that show Pushing Daisies. He did that show Hannibal that I liked really much, the Hannibal Lecter Show. He's got his first feature film out. It's called Dust Bunny. It's on HBO Max right now. Nobody paid attention to this in theaters, but it's really interesting. It's really fun. It's really whimsical. It's kind of a comedy fantasy horror about this. And it's about this young girl who believes in monsters and she believes there's a monster living under her bed that has eaten her parents. And she, she finds, Mads Mikkelsen plays her neighbor from down the hall, who turns out to be some sort of a man of mystery, a mercenary, a hitman of some kind.

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  And so she hires him to kill this monster that she believes is lurking under her bed. And it's the question becomes, is something real happening to this girl? Did her parents abandon her? Were they murdered? That's what Matt Mickelson is trying to figure out. But she keeps filling in like, no, I'm telling you, it is a actual monster. And that becomes the drama of the movie. It's a lot of fun, really well designed, very cool. Could I watch this with a 16 year old? Yes. Or two 10 year olds? 10 might be, I mean, if they are mature 10 year olds, it's a, there's a little bit of violence. There's a little bit of mayhem, but 16, 100%. Let, the 16 year old, I predict is going to really enjoy it.

• 1:12:49Jason Calacanis?

  All right, listen, I have been, uh, thank you to my friends over at ro.co/twist. Okay, go there and you get to the front of the line. You get to see if they, if you can get your GLP.

• 1:12:58Speaker 03

  Your insurance checker. Yeah, your insurance checker.

• 1:13:01Jason Calacanis?

  Insurance checker. So I have been looking for great sources of protein. I need stuff that's quick and easy, right? Now, you can make a protein shake, you got all these things.

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Jason Calacanis?

  Takes a lot of work. I do like doing the egg whites once in a while. I love a little brisket, but I have been really trying to focus in on the most bang for the buck. Uh, in terms of calories to protein, cause when you're on a GLP, you can lose a little bit of muscle mass, right? That's like I know that not everybody, but some. So I started, uh, looking for the best bang for the buck. Egg whites are up there, Greek yogurt's up there, but this one. Turns out tinned fish.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:13:42Jason Calacanis?

  So I have bought like five different tinned fish, and this is the one right now that I'm, I'm really feeling. It's called, uh, Wild Planet. Uh, I think they're like amongst the more, um, you know, um, healthy ones or great, or, or sourced really well. And, um, 160 calories for 28 grams of protein.

• 1:14:01Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:14:01Jason Calacanis?

  Uh, you're, you're trying to get that 30 grams of protein in the morning. So sometimes I'll just make myself a piece of toast. I get a little bit of carbs, okay, whatever. It's from, uh, my Happy Jane Bakery. I love so much here in Austin. But these anchovies, I love anchovies. And you put a little lemon on it, you could put some, uh, mustard.

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  So toast, you're making toast and then you're putting the anchovies on it?

• 1:14:22Jason Calacanis?

  I'll just dump the whole thing with the olive oil on a plate. I eat them up.

• 1:14:25Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:14:26Jason Calacanis?

  Dip, uh, a little bit of my olive sourdough in there. And this is very good for you. I suggest you buy a, a 10 pack, a tin, Lon. And when you're going to make a bad decision, not saying you make bad decisions, I'm not saying you don't. Not saying you're overweight, but I'm not saying you couldn't lose 10.

• 1:14:43Speaker 03

  I could lose.

• 1:14:43Jason Calacanis?

  Not saying any of those things.

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  I could lose a little bit of weight.

• 1:14:46Jason Calacanis?

  I think 10. So, uh, this would help you. And then I looked it up and now my YouTube algorithm is serving me up. A bunch of friends of mine, like Tim Ferriss, was talking about, uh, people go on anchovy fast. So I don't like this fasting. It's like I get dizzy. I gotta perform on the show. I get grumpy.

• 1:15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Jason Calacanis?

  But people do anchovy fast now.

• 1:15:06Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:15:07Jason Calacanis?

  So they'll do like three cans of this a day. They reduce themselves to 600, 800 calories, whatever it is. Uh, instead of fasting, full-on fasting, and this puts you in that ketosis thing. So anyway, uh, I, I, listen, I'm no expert on this stuff, but I have lost the 40 pounds. I do feel great and

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  There is something about

• 1:15:25Jason Calacanis?

  the best shape I've been since my 20.

• 1:15:26Speaker 03

  There is something about tinned fish, I think, that is sort of unappealing to me. But then I think back, like, as a kid, tuna fish out of the can was one of my favorite snacks. I would just eat the tuna fish right out of the can. So this, I've developed this over time. I didn't, used to have a thing about tinned fish.

• 1:15:41Jason Calacanis?

  Okay. I showed you mackerel. The other one that's really good is sardines.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:15:45Jason Calacanis?

  So you can get sardine filets, uh, and they're incredible as well. Also, same situation, you know, you're going to get into keto. Uh, you can also get, uh, and there's people who really love this stuff. Like, you can make a, um, a little plate of them. Uh, so sardines are probably my, I like mackerel above sardines, but I like, it's just right behind it. So wild sardines, mackerel, and then, um, what, I think I tried one other fish. Um, yeah, no, I think that's, I think those are the two I've tried. Anyway, people make plates of these. So you make like a charcuterie, but you include some of this on, oh, you know what? White anchovies are the other really good ones.

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:16:26Jason Calacanis?

  The bocorinos from, uh,

• 1:16:27Speaker 03

  And then herring, of course, the classic elderly Jew snack of, uh,

• 1:16:31Jason Calacanis?

  Well, I want to get, there's a herring from Sweden where they mix it with a mustard cream sauce.

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. I know about this.

• 1:16:39Jason Calacanis?

  And I, I had it there a couple of times when I was in Stockholm with Tyler.

• 1:16:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Jason Calacanis?

  And, uh, when he was living there. And man, that is, I'm going to find that recipe where they do like, I think it's like egg whites and mustard and it's a very creamy sauce.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Jason Calacanis?

  And they dump the herring in it or, or they'll put cod in it. It's unbelievable. So there's your tip, folks. I hope you stay healthy and we'll see you on Wednesday for Twist.