The 5-Step Framework for AI Agents That Improve While You Sleep | E2269

This Week In Startups is made possible by: Quo - https://quo.com/TWiST LinkedIn Jobs - https://LinkedIn.com/twist Iru - https://iru.com/twist Plaud - https://Plaud.ai/twist Today's show: Google project manager Shubham Saboo is running 6 AI agents on a Mac Mini that handle all of his side business autonomously, from research, to social posts, to newsletters. He joins Jason and Lon to walk us through his 5-step framework for designing an efficient AI agent team: Start with one agent and onboard them like a new hire Stop Googling fixes; just ask your agent how to use it Put your agents on fixed schedules Add shared memory so you don't have to repeat yourself Let agents run self-reviews and rewrite their own instructions. Get the walkthrough to put this entire plan into practice on today's episode. PLUS fresh demos of the "Minecraft"-inspired virtual workspace MoltWorld and AgentMail, which is Gmail for your AI pals, and Jason explains the thinking behind his viral, controversy-stirring "don't talk to journalists" tweet. Follow Shubham: https://x.com/Saboo_Shubham_ "How I Built an Autonomous AI Agent Team That Runs 24/7" on X: https://x.com/Saboo_Shubham_/status/2022014147450614038?s=20 Follow Mike: https://x.com/mihalich1988 MoltWorld: https://moltworld.io/ Follow Haakam: https://x.com/haakamaujla AgentMail: https://www.agentmail.to/ Jason's post about talking to journalists: https://x.com/Jason/status/2037573025458016659 NYT responds: https://x.com/NYTimesPR/status/2037648223771263082 Translated Japanese tweets: https://x.com/melonneet40/status/2038020624015315289, https://x.com/rambling_28/status/2038041455999246422 Japanese people singing "Country Roads": https://x.com/harukaawake/status/2038081269830222259 Trailer for "Nuremberg" (now on Netflix in the US): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvAy9C-bipY Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 1:24 Plaud: If your work depends on conversations — interviews, meetings, calls — you need a Plaud NotePin. You can check it out at https://Plaud.ai/twist and use code TWIST for 10% off! 3:05 We're Claw-pilled once again; it's an all AI Agent showcase 6:15 Google AI PM Shubham Saboo's Top 5 OpenClaw tips 10:14 Quo (formerly OpenPhone) gives you a clean, modern way to handle every customer call, text, and thread all in one place. Try it free at https://quo.com/TWiST. 13:26 Tip #1 — Onboard your agent like a new hire 17:31 Tip #2 — Talk to your agents constantly 19:02 Tip #3 — Put your agents on a schedule 19:51 LinkedIn Jobs - Hire right, the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your job post at https://LinkedIn.com/twist. 23:41 Tip #4 — Add cross-agent memory 29:33 Tip #5 — Let your agents self-improve 29:51 Iru unifies identity, endpoint security, and compliance into one platform. TWiST listeners get 20% off when they book a demo at https://iru.com/twist! 34:03 Why Jason says founders should avoid journalists 38:24 How biased IS the New York Times? 47:02 DEMO: Co-founder Mike Nosov shows us MoltWorld 51:14 But what's the utility of this? 1:05:15 DEMO: Haakam Aujla presents AgentMail (YC S25) 1:09:59 How does AgentMail make money? 1:17:03 How Grok Translations are creating cross-cultural dialogue on X Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp Follow Lon: X: https://x.com/lons Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis Check out all our partner offers: https://partners.launch.co/ Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Check out Jason's suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jason Calacanis?

  All right, everybody. Welcome back to This Week in Startups. It's Twist for March 30th. Happy birthday to my twins. And it is, they're 10 years old. We had their party this weekend. And I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Brooklyn. I came to see my dad. Yeah. As you can see from the Brooklyn Bridge, my dad's been a little bit sick, so I came in to spend some time with him.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  See the fam.

• 0:21Jason Calacanis?

  See John the Beard.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  That is not a live shot of Brooklyn behind you. I call shenanigans on this.

• 0:26Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, well, yes.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  It's the wrong time of day, sir. It's the wrong time.

• 0:29Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, it's a time zone. I think Texas is, what, like, eight hours behind?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  It's like Tokyo. Yeah.

• 0:34Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, it's like Tokyo.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Eight hours, yeah.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  This Week in Startups is brought to you by IRU. Unify your identity, endpoint security, and compliance into a single platform. Twist listeners get 20% off when they book a demo at iru.com/twist. That's I-R-U dot com slash twist. LinkedIn Jobs. Hire right the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your job post at LinkedIn.com/twist. And QUO. Founders move fast. Their phone systems should too. QUO, formerly OpenPhone, gives you a clean, modern way to handle every customer call, text, and thread in one place. Try it free at QUO dot com slash twist. That's Q-U-O dot com slash twist.

• 1:24Jason Calacanis?

  All right, we got a big show today, but before we get started, it's, this is what we do. We get ready for the show and I applaud Plod by pressing my pen like we are in Star Trek. And it really is kind of like Star Trek. One of the things I wanted to do was I wanted to interview my dad. I'm trying to convince my dad to let me interview him so I could write like, you know, a short story about him or something, you know, down the road. And, you know, he's an old school guy, so I was like, I don't know. My story's been told. I don't know. But I was like, okay, well, I got this Plod pen. I just want to talk to you, like, maybe we could carve out an hour or two to just talk about your childhood or whatever. So, I don't know.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  You gotta capture those memories. Once people are gone, those stories are gone. I feel this with my grandparents all the time, that I wish I'd gotten more of their old stories. And now they're gone, I'll never be able to ask them about the old days.

• 2:15Jason Calacanis?

  And I bet you somewhere in the Plod templates is archivist or, you know, family archivist or storytelling templates. If there isn't, we could write one. And that's the beauty of Plod. And, you know, they're a partner of ours and they're sponsoring today's live stream. Go check out Plod. There's a pin, there's a MagSafe adapter that goes on the back of your iPhone, or if you've got any other MagSafe. It is extraordinary. It's changed my life. It's privacy first, so you see the red lights on. And it's changed Alon's life. Even Alex loves it now. He's getting into it.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  It's great, because it's not just recording, but it understands the context. I mean, I think that would be great. Why be good for what you're talking about? It would not only capture your dad's story, but his tone, his personality, his voice. It's really, you know, it's good for the contextual understanding of what's being said.

• 3:05Jason Calacanis?

  And, you know, I think these things are going to keep getting better and better. I have a feature item I want for Plod. I want Plod, because it is independent of your device. If you have your phone in the charger and you walk to the kitchen and you want to, you know, do like a quick session or something, you know, with a colleague in the corporate kitchen, you can just press it and record it.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:24Jason Calacanis?

  I want it to have, I want it to pair with its own proprietary earpiece to give like feedback, or I could ask it questions back and forth, and then eventually have a local language model on it and have it connect to Wi-Fi. I don't know if you knew this, but if you put it in the cradle, this is like a power user feature, if you put it in the cradle, it will sync over Wi-Fi for you.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yes, I did know that. I did know that.

• 3:47Jason Calacanis?

  You know that? Okay, so it's like a little secret feature, because I was like, you know, this is the thing. Yeah, I'd like this thing to automatically sync and like the perfect time to do that when I put it in the cradle. What's the URL? Help me out here for a special offer?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. Yeah, so you want to check out-

• 4:01Jason Calacanis?

  I'm gonna keep talking till you give us the promo code.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  So you want to check it out at plaud.ai/twist. That's P-L-A-U-D dot A-I slash twist. You want to use the code TWIST for 10% off of your Plaud pin.

• 4:15Jason Calacanis?

  All right, so it is AO after OpenClaw-

• 4:19Speaker 01

  We stopped keeping track. It's gotta be, we gotta be close to the 60s. Yeah, we're in the 60s.

• 4:23Jason Calacanis?

  We'll just go at 60 for today. OpenClaw is a transformational product that allows you to have an agent. And that agent, you can give it access to everything. You can give it its own computer. You can give it its own Gmail address, Notion. And a lot of folks are now amping up their products and services. I noticed Claude, I noticed Claude added specifically skills. So you can add a skill to Claude cowork now. So this is such an impressive product and an open source project that our friend Dave Moran has been pursuing. And I think it's really important for us to keep the open source train moving. So I'm gonna keep talking about OpenClaw, but I'm actually delighted to see that the innovations in there, specifically skills,

• 5:08Jason Calacanis?

  have made their way into other products that we love. Perplexity Computer, I think, has added skills. And I just noticed Claude, if you hit slash skill, it will let you put a skill in. And then you can copy and paste the skills from one to another. One of the skills you and I created that was super helpful to us is obviously doing guest research. Great.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Right, yes.

• 5:28Jason Calacanis?

  Another skill is, hey, what are the best practices around thumbnails and subject lines? Like social media best practices for YouTube, whatever. So now we have that skill. I have a skill for tell me what the person's done, like a check-in report, like a management tool, CIR. So I could say, "check-in report for Lon 3," and it'll tell me the last three days of what Lon worked on. In other words, the weekend. And I'll say, "he takes a full Sunday off." Maybe checks in once in a while, but he tries to keep that Sunday nice and tight.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  I try to keep my Sunday. I work a lot on Saturdays, I feel like.

• 5:58Jason Calacanis?

  You do put in some time on Saturdays, which I appreciate. But it will tell me all the Gmails, Notions, Zooms, meetings. Anyway. We thought we'd step back a step today, have a guest on who's extremely good at OpenClaw, just go through their top five OpenClaw tips. So it's not just us repeating our tips over and over again. So let's introduce our guest and get to work.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're very pleased to welcome. He's a Senior AI Product Manager at Google. He came to our attention because he's been posting incredible OpenClaw tips on X. A lot of great X articles, including one that I bookmarked called "How I Built An Autonomous AI Agent Team That Runs 24/7." Please welcome Shubham Saboo to the show. Shubham, thanks for being here.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Lon, for having me.

• 6:43Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Yes, super excited to talk about OpenClaw. I've been running OpenClaw for the last two months. Today, it is a team of six agents running on my Mac Mini. They pretty much automate everything that I do outside Google. So, quick context for the viewers and for you, Jason and Lon. Outside Google, I started an awesome LLM app wrapper, which was an open source LLM apps plus agent templates for users to build on top of. So they can just use those templates, build on top of. That wrapper crossed 100,000 stars. It was such a pain to manage a single person's side job. Apart from that, I have newsletters and whatever I learn with these two goes on my social media. So that would take hours and hours of my time outside Google.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  So I was pretty much working like 20 hours or 18 to 20 hours before Google. Then I came across this thing called OpenClaw. I did not use it for 15, 20 days since its launch, and then I see it popping up on Twitter, X, and LinkedIn, and Reddit, everywhere. I was like, I have to try this thing. Like, what is this thing? I install it. And first of all, for viewers listening, you don't really need a Mac Mini to install OpenClaw, but I am super concerned about my security. I keep these things seriously, so I did not want to install it on my personal machine. I was like, $500 is worth an investment. I got a Mac Mini.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Can I jump in here and ask? Because we have our OpenClaw agents running in an AWS. EC2 instance and I I do I have to say I feel like it's holding me back. I feel like I encounter a lot of like, "Oh, I can't go to that website. Oh, I'm getting blocked. I can't look at that video." "Oh, my email doesn't work right because it's because of the limitations of that." So how how big of a whole thing holding me back is that? And is it really like preferable to have it in its own Mac mini or some other solution?

• 8:42Speaker 03

  So it does not really need to be its own Mac mini, but what I recommend, what I've seen after talking to a lot of individuals is having OpenClaw running on a clean slate or a clean machine really helps. Because what you're trying to do here is trying to give agent its own identity, personality. So you really want that agent to have its home as well. Just like lawn, you could live in a rented apartment, but you would really prefer to have your own home, right? Autonomous privacy, you can do whatever you want. So when you give OpenClaw a clean machine, be it a Mac mini or a local or your old computer, you can just leave it autonomously running and doing like changing files and using websites, attaching it to Chrome, using browser.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  So that kind of flexibility comes with a machine which you typically won't get in sandbox environment. So they have its limitations. But people starting out, you can just start in $5 or $10 subscription, just run it in sandbox environment. So you really don't need to buy a Mac mini. That's the first step. But once you get Claw piled, then you would really want to have a Mac mini because that's that's the cleanest user experience you would have. So I've been doing that. And when I installed OpenClaw, I just realized like it is super simple to install. It is just like installing OpenClaw, selecting models, giving them tools, going through certain steps. And by the end of it, you just have your first agent running like and it comes with a UI along with the terminal.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  So you can just go in the browser, open the dashboard and you can see your first agent running. And that's how it started.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  It's springtime, folks, and that means it's time for spring cleaning, but not just for your house, but all those messy parts of your business. And that's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo.

• 10:25Jason Calacanis?

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• 11:08Jason Calacanis?

  That's Q U O dot com slash T W I S T. QUO, no missed calls and no missed customers.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  And when I was starting out, I see people naming their open law agents randomly like Sam or Holly or Molly and all those things. It's like, it is very difficult for me. Like, okay, it's good for one agent, I could remember it. But I was like, maybe let me just name my agents after my favorite TV characters. So I started naming them after my favorite characters from Friends and The Office. And after a while, I realized while I was doing it unknowingly, it really makes a very good mental model. So I started with my first.

• 11:47Jason Calacanis?

  By having personas. Personas create a mental model. So this person's a producer, this person's a fact checker, this person's an engineer, this person's a researcher, this person's an accountant. That does help humans figure this out. But then there's the Ultron model, which we've talked about here is like having one have all the skills. And that's an ongoing debate. And I think we've all come to the conclusion, Lon, that it's fine to start with multiple agents and coordinate them. It's also fine to try to have one super agent. You'll, you'll hit roadblocks in terms of. How often you're using them.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:25Jason Calacanis?

  I think that becomes the key blocker. Yes.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's one hundred percent right, Jason. So I, I, I never recommend people. So people see all these flashy screenshots on X where people share, okay, I've been running six agent team or eight agent team, or I have like twelve agents running in the background. I never recommend people to start from there. Start with one agent and make your way up by talking to your agent. Like, that's the best thing that OpenClaw has done. So you really don't need to be a technical expert, or you don't need to have be a coding ninja to like run these agents, deploy them, or make multiple agents out of it. So I started with this main agent. I named her after Monica because Monica is known to run a tight ship. She handles the operation, all those things very well. And I started talking to Monica, Monica. So like, here's step one. So when you are starting with.

• 13:12Jason Calacanis?

  So this is tip number one of your five tips.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  Yes. When people start with OpenClaw and people start with their first agent, uh, because of all, all the hype that was created, that's created and that brings people into this. People think, okay, installing is the only thing I need. And then I just start chatting with my agent and the agent can do whatever I want. That's not how it works. So I've seen people operating in like two extremes. Some people just like directly get in without giving any context. So you really need to tell your agent about yourself, what you wanted to do. Think of it like onboarding a real employee or an intern. Uh, so you do not onboard them by not telling them anything. You don't onboard them by telling them nothing. Also, you don't just like bombard them with all the company information on day one.

• 13:59Speaker 03

  So you don't just like dump files and files of content. You don't just give them like, here are like ten folders. Figure, figure this out yourself. So people are operating in two extremes and both of them end up in a disappointed uh, shape or form. And then they're like, oh, this OpenClaw thing, it was so hyped up and it is not working. It's like. Either you don't give it any context, or you're just dumping it with a lot and lot of context. Because at the end of it, it's the model which has limitations. If you dump it with a lot of context, it will do a context float. If you don't tell them anything, it will just give you a generalist result. So you have to be.

• 14:32Jason Calacanis?

  So example of this, example of this. Good context to give it and then overwhelming it.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Good context will be just like how you onboard an intern. You would tell them who you are, what the company is, what the company does. You give, point them towards the right link. You tell them specifically, this is your job. This is what I want you to do, just like Jason, you were mentoring, right? At the start.

• 14:53Jason Calacanis?

  Like onboarding an employee.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, you were very specific. Lon, I want you to do this and Jacob, I want you to do that. So you, you need to be very specific. You can't just say, Jason, okay, Lon, Jason, figure out what went wrong and just do everything yourself. You were very specific in your direction. So you need to have that kind of direction and that's the right context.

• 15:12Jason Calacanis?

  Have you done that, by the way, Lon, on yours, on GAF? Have you done that?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yes, in fact, we had, we had another guest on Jordy Coltman. You remember this was during the very early days of Open Claw. And his recommendation was you have your agent interview you and then base its sole M D file on that interview. So I actually had a whole like 20 minute conversation with GAF where I explained the show and how I'm going to use him and what kind of other tools I'm using. And that really informed our whole relationship moving forward to there. So yeah, I think this is super important because you don't, without that context, your agent doesn't know what you're looking for.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  I actually just saw a skill that I will find and post here where actually you, you set up your agent so that it always interviews you before a new task. Because the theory is when you just tell an agent to do something, it's going to get like 70, 80% of the way that you, of where you wanted it to go. But it won't get that 100% because it's guessing on a few things. And so what the interview idea is, is if your agent chats with you beforehand, asks all of its questions, it doesn't have to guess and you'll get a lot closer to 100% on the first try, which is an interesting idea.

• 16:26Jason Calacanis?

  And should all that become part of their soul or part of their memory in your mind?

• 16:30Speaker 03

  That's a very good question, Jason. And here is the interesting answer. So I did not tell Monica where to put all the information that I'm sharing with her. I shared what I want her to do. I shared about me. And she figured out like what to put in her soul. She figured out that she should create a user dot M D to put the information about me. She figured out what will go in her identity file. So this is taking us as close to managing a human or as close as mimicking a human experience, which was the which was super interesting and insightful thing when I used OpenClaw. And by default, the way with the new updates coming in, by default, it is going in that direction, Lon, which you're talking about.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  So when you throw in something at OpenClaw, it asks you a flow, follows some follow up question, and then it goes from there. And then it automatically figures out where this information goes in what file. We'll come to memory in a bit, Jason, but this is when you start, like this is how you set up your first agent, giving the right context. Agent figures out itself, and all you're doing is talking to your agent. And that leads us into tip two or the productivity tip two. Because all these tips will build on themselves, following a specific user journey when you start, like how you start and how you evolve your agents into something towards the end of it, we'll get to an agent theme which self evolve, self run

• 17:56Speaker 03

  without keeping you or without you being the barrier to that. Like you don't have to, like Jason, just like you came in and you told Lon and Chekov, okay, this needs to fix. You don't need to tell them. What if it gets automated? What if they could just like keep doing it themselves? Similarly, what if agents can just figure out, okay, these things are breaking? Go back and just.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Just do a recap of what went wrong and figure out a fix, update their instructions based on that. So we'll go from here to there.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  So the top five so far, we got, start with just one agent and onboard it like a new hire. And then tip number two, you just gotta talk to your agent, don't worry. Sometimes, I will say, my agent will try to be, open up your terminal and do this and that. And I always shut him down. No gaffe. You gotta do it. Learn how to do this yourself. Now, we're moving on. What is topic number three? We're gonna talk about cron schedules.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  We talked about setting up your first agent. We talked about the value of talking to your agents. But still, you are still in proactive role, like you are prompting agents to do something. You are still asking agents to do something. But the real value comes from agents being autonomous. Can agents do something without you even having to ask them to do something first? So can they do something while you sleep? Can they do something before, without you prompting them? That's where heartbeat of cron schedules come in. That's, that's the, that's one of the best things that OpenLaw has introduced. Now, I can just put my agents on a cron schedule. So I have this agent called Dwight, Dwight Shute from Office. He takes care of all the research.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  Because previously, what I had to do is I have to be like super active on X and Reddit and all those places. And like looking at the blogs to figure out what's happening in the AI space. And since, with the speed at which it's moving, it occupies a lot of time. You need to be like online most, most of the time.

• 19:51Jason Calacanis?

  Hiring can be its own full-time job. And hey, guess what? I already have a full-time job. I make podcasts and I invest. But when you're running a small company, we both know, every hire matters. You don't want to waste any of the seats you have at your company. And the best partner you can have is LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Why? There's a billion people using LinkedIn. All the great talent are there. If you're proud of your work, you build a LinkedIn page and you update it. LinkedIn Hiring Pro is going to streamline and simplify the entire process for you. Nearly 60% of companies using LinkedIn Hiring Pro. You're gonna get an incredible candidate to interview in the first week. And, you know, we're looking for a new producer for the pod. We did shout-outs here on the show. We posted it on my social media. We asked friends. You know where we found? Our next great hire, LinkedIn, and it was competitive.

• 20:35Jason Calacanis?

  We had like three or four really good choices. So hire right the first time. Post your first job and get a hundred dollars off towards your post at LinkedIn.com/hiringprooffer. That's LinkedIn.com/hiringprooffer. Terms and conditions apply. So this is a great example. We should, if the producers can pull up the cron job schedule and I'll run through it here.

• 21:00Jason Calacanis?

  So you have Dwight scans at 8:00 AM, 15 different sources, things like X, Hacker News, Reddit. And it writes an intel report and sends the summary to Telegram. Then you have Kelly at 9:00 AM, read Dwight's intel and draft X posts for you. And then they send those to Telegram for you to review. Then at 10:00 AM, Ross reviews the open PRs on Awesome LLM Apps. That's your open source app that has 104 stars and flags which ones need attention. I guess they prioritize it. Dwight comes back in at 4:00 PM and does an afternoon sweep, catches anything new since the morning. And then Kelly and Rachel draft X and LinkedIn post from the refreshed intel.

• 21:42Jason Calacanis?

  And then at 6:00 PM, you draft the daily newsletter from Dwight's intel and send the draft to yourself for a final review. That's it, yeah? That's the process here. And so this would be like if you had one, two, three, four different employees, except these are agents. Now, these agents are each running in a virtual machine, their own open claw? Or how do you just technically architect that?

• 22:09Speaker 03

  So when I had my first agent, Monica, I told her, Monica, I need to keep doing this kind of research. And we may need like someone who could just like scrape these things for me, who we can give these tools and can automatically autonomously throughout the day. Monica helped me through the process. Monica's like, we can create a new agent. Then I talked to, again, second tip, going back to the second tip, always talking to your agent. I gave her all the context. She gave me a few options. Then we end up, both of us decided we need to have another agent. She walked me through the process.

• 22:42Jason Calacanis?

  So that means you need to have a second agent. And this is where that second point is. Instead of trying to figure it out for yourself, just ask your agent. Because they know how to find the answers. I had this happen. I was like, hey, what's the best way for me to download videos? Rip a video from Instagram or Twitter and get it into my, and then store it somewhere. And we figured out, or it figured out like three or four different ways. One of them was on my Mac Mini to go to like these Russian websites that rip YouTube videos and constantly get blocked. Then it was like, oh, that's not working. It's not consistent. We should probably just run this GitHub repo that was based upon what those websites are because it's open source software.

• 23:23Jason Calacanis?

  I was like, yeah, that sounds great. Now I just go to like three of my replicants, Lon's, myself and another one. And I just say, hey, can you get me this video? It downloads it, puts it back into the Slack room. And then for larger ones, it puts it into a G drive. But I figured that out, not by going and doing the research myself, just by asking the replicant. Talking to your agents is all you need. Point number two. Three, put your agents on a cron schedule and then you can really see the power of them. Number four, add cross-agent memory when you start scaling. This is something, it's interesting that you bring this up that we, Oliver, who is the producer of This Week in AI and does the demos there, really talented, one of my new all-stars.

• 24:05Jason Calacanis?

  And he just built a little skill to do this. Explain why this is important. Why is it important? Point number four, add cross-agent memory when you start scaling.

• 24:18Speaker 03

  When you have these multiple agents, we got to shape and form where now we have an agent team and there's a chief of staff and agent hierarchy, Monica, managing these agents. So when you have a lot of these agents going on and one agent feeding to another agent, what happens normally is? So generally, before I get into this, I'll just say like OpenClaw has a really good default memory layer that coordinates through file, that works through file. And a simple, plain English example of that is Dwight does all the research. He writes whatever he finds as signals in an Intel file. Kelly and Rachel reads that Intel file. Pam reads that Intel file, creates the newsletter out of that. So that's how the coordination worked. That's also your memory. So they write.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  In files and through files, each agent discovers those files are memory dot M D file. There's daily daily log memory files. That's how it works. I realized what happens many times, my agent would just forget, forget like Dwight would just forget the tools that he would have access to.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  This happens to me all the time where I just have to remember, I'll be like, no GAF, you have that already. We already set it up, go look and then it'll be like, oh, you're right. Like I find I run into this all the time.

• 25:26Jason Calacanis?

  This is the difference between a professional company like Anthropic making Claude or Perplexity making computer. Claude cowork and Perplexity, if they did, if it didn't work and it wasn't reliable, people who are paying 20 bucks or 200 bucks a month lawn would then email the company and say, hey, this is not right. It's giving wrong answers, etc. So they might be slower, but they're going to be more, less brittle. Open source projects tend to be a little less stable or reliable, you know, in this early stages of them. And, you know, there's not like you can call customer service and be like, I paid $400 for this for the last

• 26:08Jason Calacanis?

  four months and it's not working. I want a refund, right? There's no refund for open cloud. So I think that's important kind of thing here and it's important for the people at the Open Cloud Foundation to know reliability is something like adding features. Yeah, great. It's the most fun in an open source project. The features is what everybody wants to work on. Reliability is what people don't want to work on. That's chores and grunt work. It's got to be more reliable with the memory. How do you store the memory between multiple agents? Do you give it a shared drive with the memory file? And then how do you share skills? Do you sync them across the skill files or you point them all to the same? You know, hard drive or directory somewhere in the cloud with the skills?

• 26:50Jason Calacanis?

  What's the practice you use? Cause I've heard many different ways to do this.

• 26:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Before. Getting to a good reliable working solution, I did a lot of hacks here and there to figure out like to make sure things are. Let's say if my agents were forgetting tools, there was a tools dot M D files that were created which would list all the tools so they won't forget. And in the soul dot M D will have add a line in Dwight soul dot M D, always go and look at the tools dot M D file. So these were like hacks that we were doing, which kind of again worked and generally works for eighty percent of the use cases. But then for actual memory, and this is the problem that does not, that that did not just came with OpenClaw. It always existed since we had agents and you would see some of these like companies are building solutions for agent memory.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  So Google has this very nice solution called Vertex A I Memory Bank. There is a company called MemZero, there is a company called Cogni. All these operate at the agent memory layer. So how it works is, so Google, we created a plugin for Vertex A I Memory Bank. It is a solution which lets your agent automatically recall and capture memory at runtime. So when I'm having a conversation, the agent automatically figure, that memory layer automatically figure out what's worth saving. It auto captures that. And when I'm having, when you're in the conversation and it needs to be pulled out, that's called auto recall. It automatically figures out this need to be recalled. So agents always have this memory.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  And why this makes sense in across agent team is let's say if I give feedback, I was talking to Monica and I tell her Monica, I don't like a lot of the use of M dashes all the time. So don't, don't use M dash or use it like very, very carefully. What happens is I just told this to Monica, but because this is a shared memory layer, next time when I open Kelly's draft or Rachel's draft, I don't see those M dashes. So that's the magic of shared memory layer. That's the magic of an intelligent dynamic memory layer. Which of course is an addition on top of your OpenClaw layer, which you will be paying for. So this does not come for free. But there are elegant solutions already designed there. All you need is a plugin to OpenClaw. Again, I am not an engineer. I did not know much about the engineering side of memory

• 29:02Speaker 03

  bank, but then I worked with my agent to build a plugin, open sourced it for others to use. So now you just pay eight to $10 more on top of what you're paying and you have this elegant memory layer. And even before this, I tried multiple things. Like, I was like, okay, can I use a local memory layer where I have an embedding model running in my talker and that could work. But after all those hacks, I was like, let me build this plugin, let me use that, use the elegant solution that Google already has.

• 29:31Jason Calacanis?

  Start with one agent, onboard it like a new hire. That's number one. Talking to your agent is all you need to do. That's number two. Number three, put your agents on a cron schedule. We know about that. Number four, cross agent memory when you start scaling. Number five, let your agents get better on their own. This I've never heard of. Explain to us what your thought here is on making them get better on their own. It might seem like your startup can save some money by using a cheap tool for your device management and security, but you'll eventually end up paying out the difference and more in time and frustration. Take the guesswork out and trust our friends at Eru End Point Management. Eru is going to automate your device management end to end, so you don't have to worry about onboarding, endless app updates, and enforcing all of your company's

• 30:16Jason Calacanis?

  various policies across your entire team's Mac, Windows, and Android devices. This is going to cut down all the time it takes you to deploy new devices from hours to just minutes. And that means less time troubleshooting, fewer tickets, and better security for your company's valuable data. Everyone at launch has a phone, a laptop. I'm even buying these kids' PLOD devices now because they're so good. You think I have time to worry about what apps they're installing on these things and what websites they're visiting and all the error messages they're going to get? I got a big podcast all day long and make angel investments. Without Eru's system, my team would be wasting hours policing everybody's hard drives. Instead of doing valuable work, that actually moves the ball forward. Twist

• 30:57Jason Calacanis?

  listeners get 20% off when they book a demo at iru.com/twist. That's iru.com/twist.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  This is the most fun one, and this one... This is the one that I recently realized. So what was happening is I would found myself giving a lot of feedback to my agent. Fix this or fix that or this is not working, that is not working, that format is not right. Or Ross, you reviewed the PR or you brought me these PRs which could be rejected. At the first glance, why are you asking me to review it? Why are you wasting your energy in reviewing it? I was like, just like how humans work and taking lessons from the management skills like. Because since this is a company, this is an org which is managed by Monica and these agents are employees. That's the mental ball that we are going with. Each, all the organizations have this self-review process, managerial review process.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Why can't agent go back and recap what they did in a week and review what went wrong and fix themselves? And why can't that become a crown? So that was the seed for self-improving agents. Agents can get better on their own. Now each of my agent has a self-review, weekly self-review process. Where they go and look at everything that they did in the week. Kelly would go in and open X. They, all of these agents have their separate accounts, so nothing, they don't touch any of my personal stuff. But because my tweets are personal, they can go and see what are the tweets that Kelly. Post that Kelly suggested that I posted on X. What was the hit rate? What did well? What did not do well?

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Same Ross can go in and see the PRs that he suggested, what actions I should take and what I did. And what was the diff between that? So Ross can go and see, okay, this is where I went wrong, this is what Shubham did. And automatically fixes its instruction. And on top of all of these, just like we have managerial review, there is a bi-weekly review by Monica for all these agents. Where she goes in, looks at what these agents did in the last two weeks and grades them. Like A, B, B minus, C. So and reports, send a report back to me. So I could see, like as a CEO, I could see how my agents are doing. What is going well, what's not going well? And manage them from a managerial position rather than getting over hands on.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  So we went from installing agents to managing agents in these five steps. Love it.

• 33:25Jason Calacanis?

  Great job. We're going to continue to follow you. Where can people find more? Where can they follow your GitHub? Where can they find you on X?

• 33:33Speaker 03

  My X account is like shubham Saboo. You can just like search, find me on X. Awesome LLM apps is the GitHub repo. S H U B H A M S A B O O.

• 33:44Jason Calacanis?

  S A B O O. Is there a dash between the two words or an underscore or just straight up?

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Underscore.

• 33:51Jason Calacanis?

  Underscore.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Should we talk about journalism and the New York Times or should we go on to our next demo? What do you think?

• 33:56Jason Calacanis?

  If you want to do it real quick, you know, I can basically give you my context. You tee it up for everybody. You tee it up. It sounds like I'm talking about myself. I didn't know you were going to put this on the docket. I don't usually like to talk about myself, but this one went crazy.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  This one went very big. 38.6 million views on this tweet that I'm about to pull up for March 22nd. Founders, take my advice. Do not talk to the press. Go direct and do long form podcasts. Wired and the New York Times are as biased as Fox News and MSNBC. Excuse me. I was about to say ridiculous non-name for that cable network, MSNBC. This is a function of their need to pander to one side to survive, be it through $3 a month subs or rage baiting ad-based stories. So sum up, founders, if you talk to the New York Times or Wired, they're going to trash you. They're going to misrepresent you in order to get more subscribers. So that, the context around this was Wired has a new editor. The New York Times did a profile about Wired's new editor.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  And you were saying, people don't care about this ultra-woke biased version of Wired. Fewer people care about the New York Times' take on Wired. Founders should just not engage with the media and go direct. So this set off, you know, on both sides. You had a lot of defenders. I would say Elon notably, Joe Lonsdale, Mike Solana, a lot of other tech leaders and CEOs said they agree. There's no need to go talk to the press anymore. But then a whole lot of writers, podcasters, journalists took strong issue. I would say Jordan Kucola, she's a writer and a podcaster. She had the tweet, I think, that sums up the opposition the best. Wired is on an absolute tear. They're adding tons of subs. They're breaking headline news. More relevant to the nation's conversation than it's been in years.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  If you don't like how Wired writes about your company, maybe your company should be less crummy. Although she didn't say crummy. She used a bad word.

• 35:46Jason Calacanis?

  She used the S-word.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  She used the S-word. So, I mean, I guess I would throw it to you. You know, do you stand by this idea? Why do you think, you know, is Wired having this breakout moment? Is The Times having this breakout moment? And why do you think there's no need for founders to talk to what we would think of as, you know, the mainstream press?

• 36:06Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I'm not dunking on the press for the sake of dunking on the press. I'm giving specific advice to founders in the context of 2026. Wired Magazine and The New York Times made a choice at some point, I think during the Trump first presidency, 45th presidency, to, you know, go more woke, to be the resistance, which is totally fine. They're allowed to make that editorial choice. MSNBC and Fox News proved horseshoe theory. If you make a horseshoe, the tip of the horseshoe are the two radical extremes. And the big, wide part of the U is all of us in the middle.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:47Jason Calacanis?

  It's the center. But those two tips, when they're enraged, they click. And when they're enraged and they're pander to, they subscribe. You can see this on the right acutely with Meghan Kelly and Tucker. And then I guess to the right of them, there's, you know, Fuentes and whatever.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 37:07Jason Calacanis?

  You mean, you get, I mean, like, really far to the right, like Nuremberg, far to the right. By the way, great film.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  I liked it too.

• 37:14Jason Calacanis?

  I enjoyed Nuremberg. I am giving advice to founders. Why am I giving this advice? I would give a similar piece of advice if you were going to go on Fox News or something and you were, I don't know, you were at an elite institution like Harvard, what they consider elite institutions, and they consider you the problem. If you go on Fox News, they're just going to dunk on you. It's not going to turn out well for you. It's going to be a setup, basically.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I mean, isn't the press supposed to be a little adversarial? Like, isn't that kind of baked in? If you're covering somebody, you shouldn't be just, like, totally in their pocket.

• 37:48Jason Calacanis?

  Adversarial or advocate, two different words. Adversarial means you ask hard questions, you ask hard follow-ups, and you talk to as many people as possible. Advocacy means you pick a side and you write stories that appeal to that side and that build that side's arguments. So if you were writing a story about the border, you know, we all know what they would say about Biden and Kamala. We all know what they would say about Trump and they would say about ICE, etc. You know, they frame it either way. The problem in media today is if you go right down the middle, you get no ratings because that horseshoe, you don't make any money and you lose audience. That's why people picked a side. Founders get caught up in this. If you go through like dozens

• 38:30Jason Calacanis?

  and dozens of stories, whether it's about me or anybody else in tech who's high profile, and you look at a New York Times or a Wired story in this Wired 3.0 era, it's going to be basically holding truth to power. It's going to be a left, you know, trash the company with a bunch of anonymous sources. And that's the other problem here is the journalistic technique of using anonymous sources has been abused in order to do advocacy. I know this because I worked in journalism like for half my career. When people used to bring us a source, we'd say, well, what's their axe to grind? Now they're like, let me find the sources with the axe to grind. That's literally what they do. They're like, where can I find people who used to work at Andro, used to work for Jason, used to work for this company? Where can I find people that he fired? Where can I find people who are

• 39:15Jason Calacanis?

  competitors who, you know, he beat? So my advice is strictly for founders. It's not worth your time and it is worth your time to build a direct audience. Why do I say that? The average New York Times story gets like 100, 200,000 views. You can very easily, as you said, I got 38 million views on that one. You know, and I typically get 50,000 views on, you know, 50 to 500,000 views. Now, that's a million followers and it took me a while to build it. But across my podcast millions, that's the better strategy for founders is just be a vocal founder, be a vocal venture capitalist, which everybody has sort of copied me on that way, right? I was one of the first in the VC community to do it with this very podcast 15 years ago. So I'm giving advice that's in the best interest of it. Now,

• 39:57Jason Calacanis?

  What shocked me was the New York Times should just shut up and be like, why would we respond to J Cal? There's no reason to respond to me. Like, it's on X, that's, you know, my most favorite nation there. Those are a bunch of founders, those are a bunch of people who don't trust the media. Trust in the media is at an all-time low right now. People don't trust the media, including people on the left. And people on the left specifically, who are the audience of the New York Times, they are starting to abandon the New York Times over the Palestinian issue and countless other issues. So, the New York Times is suddenly finding itself losing the left after, you know, admonishing and blocking the right essentially, right? By kicking them out, saying, "We're gonna go for the left."

• 40:40Jason Calacanis?

  Now they're losing half the left, so they're down to whatever. The really strange thing is the New York Times decided to respond.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've got their tweet here. "Jason, business leaders from your industry and others speak to the New York Times, as they have for years, because our reporters produce insightful, fair reporting that illuminates audiences everywhere. We're not publicists, and we're not promoting anyone's pitch deck." I mean, to me, this is pure Streisand effect.

• 41:05Jason Calacanis?

  Yes. What are you doing?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  The surest way to make sure this gets another news cycle is for the New York Times, as a publication, to respond. If you're a newspaper, you just have to take your lumps, right? I mean, I feel like you don't have to get into the arena and argue about the value of newspapers. You're one of the world's most famous newspapers.

• 41:27Jason Calacanis?

  The most famous newspaper in the world is the New York Times.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:32Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody can come up with one that's more impressive.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  It would only be the Washington Post.

• 41:37Jason Calacanis?

  And that would be a distant second. And if you look at their critique, because our reporters produce insightful, I don't think it's particularly insightful, I'll be honest. It's kind of the joke is the New York Times is on it, they're like typically six months late to the party, so nobody believes it's insightful. Fair reporting. Nobody believes it's fair. Everybody believes it's got a left-leaning bias. If you were to take 100 journalists there, 99% of them

• 41:58Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't

• 41:59Jason Calacanis?

  Not only didn't vote for Trump, they hate Trump. The number of people at the New York Times who voted for Trump or in the Republican Party is less than 3%.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Here's what I would say. I would say the New York Times definitely has a lot of baked-in biases. I don't know if it's always just left-wing. Obviously, in some ways, a lot of people who work for the Times probably don't like Donald Trump. Like, those exist. But it's more like there is a narrative around everything, and they always embrace whatever that narrative is. And it's not always right or left. It's just the narrative. A lot of times, it's just the status quo, and anything outside of it is like a narrative violation. But yes, the idea is like newspapers like the New York Times always go into these things with sort of a preset take. And now they're figuring out how this fits into the take.

• 42:47Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and then they add, like, "We're not publicists, and we're not promoting anyone's pitch deck." We didn't say that. We didn't say that. They never said you had to be PR people. They never said you had to promote anybody's pitch deck. They said, "Don't use anonymous sources. It's not worth founders' time. Going direct is a better strategy." All that remains true. They didn't address any of that. And the fact is, if you look at multiple surveys from Pew to CBS News to everybody, the trust in the New York Times and media is at an all-time low. Nobody expects that Fox News is going to produce objective reporting on, you know, the left. And nobody expects the New York Times is going to do responsible, thoughtful coverage of the tech or the finance industry.

• 43:32Jason Calacanis?

  Period, full stop. That's it. Just, it is what it is, folks. And if they didn't pick a side, by the way, they would have less subscribers. And to the person who's like, "Oh, my God. Why are its on a tear? Why are they at 200,000 subscribers?" In other words, you know, like, a middle-of-the-road, successful

• 43:50Jason Calacanis?

  Substack, the fact that they've got 100 journalists and they can only get to 600 or 700,000 subscribers, it's like, it's pathetic.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  It's a tough time for mainstream publications, I think. And I mean, I think to your point, if a founder goes on a popular podcast, they're going to get such crazy traction out of it, people are going to clip it up, those little video clips are going to go everywhere, like, it is a viable strategy.

• 44:17Jason Calacanis?

  And you get 20 minutes to two hours to explain your position in a nuanced way, and not have it interpreted by some New York Times journalist or a Fox News journalist, 99 point plus percent are voting for the other side and are coming to it with advocacy. The New York Times and Wired are advocacy publications, just like Wired is, I mean, just like Fox News is, or Tucker Carlson is, they're advocacy journalism, if you want to even consider that something.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Back in the day, to be a successful comedian, you had to get invited on The Tonight Show, that was like a huge rite of passage, you get invited on The Tonight Show, and then if Johnny, after your stand-up, if Johnny invites you to come sit down on the couch and talks to you, that's how you know you'd like made it, that's how like Richard Lewis became Richard Lewis. And today, you know, if you get a bunch of popular clips on Instagram, you're a famous comedian, there is no more gatekeeper that way, and I think that's what we're really seeing, that it used to be if you wanted, if you were a startup, you needed to get covered in one of five publications, that's how you were a serious company that was doing great things, and today, that you could go on anybody's podcast, you can release your own press release and blog post, you could do a tweet that takes off with a good demo video, and you're a serious company.

• 45:30Jason Calacanis?

  I'll change my opinion when the New York Times or Wired calls me and says, hey, J. Cal, you invest in 100 companies a year, anybody doing something really positive for the world, we'd like to write a positive story about something having a great impact on society, to balance out like, hey, all of our content that is, you know, if it bleeds it lead style, they'd never make that call, they never say, I've never, I get called all the time, hey, can you rat on this friend, can you say something negative about Sacks, can you say something negative about Elon, can you say something negative about Palmer Lucky, can you say something negative about this person, that person, any of my famous friends, acquaintances, enemies for enemies, whatever, they constantly DM me, hey, could you comment on David Sacks changing his role, can you comment on Freeberg joining this,

• 46:14Jason Calacanis?

  can you comment on Chamath Spak, can you comment on Andrel, I'm like... Are you nuts? Like, I'm gonna comment on my friends, and then you're gonna weaponize it and spin it.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not juicy to be like, "Tell us about great companies you've met with." That's not gonna sell papers.

• 46:31Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, but that's how it used to work. And it didn't work to the exclusion of the negative story, by the way. They still wrote about the Microsoft antitrust case in detail. But they would call you, like, a journalist would call you and say, "Hey, what's new and exciting? You know? Anything really impressive in your world? Have you seen any technology that blows your mind, like we do here? We talk about OpenClaw, we talk about Tau. This is the place to come. If you wanna talk about some great technology, come here. We'll talk about the technology. We're not gonna ask you who you voted for. We're not gonna ask you for your stance on Palestine, or Iran, or Ukraine." Like, who cares? That's not why you're here. You're here to talk about technology and entrepreneurship. Anyway, now you got me all worked up.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  We gotta check out MoldWorld. It is a virtual environment where your agents can build and explore. Together, we've got one of the co-founders, Mike Nosov, here joining us. Mike, thank you so much for being here.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  Thank you, guys, for inviting. It's a great honor and great pleasure.

• 47:29Jason Calacanis?

  It is our great honor, Mike. It is our honor. Salute to you.

• 47:34Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.

• 47:35Jason Calacanis?

  To builders. And so, we just wanna know, do you think that President Trump is an authoritarian? And do you think that...

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Don't answer that, Mike. Don't answer that.

• 47:47Jason Calacanis?

  Mike, I need to know what's your stance...

• 47:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's a...

• 47:51Jason Calacanis?

  On Palestine. We need to know. The audience doesn't need to know. Talk about check, please, for the love of God.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  Thank you very much. Okay. So, to quickly segue from this complicated, hard topics to something more childish and playful, I want to introduce you to our project. It's called MoldWorld. And currently, you can see this chaotic environment, which is looking something like, you know, a bridge between a million-dollar webpage and the... Sorry, the Moldbook, something like this. So, what it is, in a nutshell, you are watching the demo of a voxel world game. So, it's like a place for agents to interact with each other, and it's just like the first layer of our ground vision, which I can, you know, like, touch in a little bit later.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  And what you can see over here.

• 48:46Jason Calacanis?

  For people who aren't watching, it looks like Minecraft or Roblox. It's a world that looks like it could be Manhattan or San Francisco Islands. A bunch of agents running around in some buildings. Got it?

• 48:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's pretty chaotic. So you can see some agents are building some stuff. Someone is building different letterings. Someone is building, you know, buildings themselves, et cetera, et cetera. But it's not that interesting. So the game is just a medium. So why it is interesting? It is interesting because we have close to 2,000 agents running in the single simulation. They're communicating, they're talking to each other. But this kind of approach doesn't have like the real utility behind it.

• 49:24Jason Calacanis?

  You fired up these 2,000 agents or they're like, Lon and I could contribute our agents?

• 49:29Speaker 04

  No, everyone can contribute, everyone can connect. So we have close to 100 of our own agents and we are developing our own forks of, you know, the open claw just to be able to be participating, you know, more performantly in this simulation. But anyone with open claw or different agent can actually connect. And here is a, you know, pretty standard way to do it. So you just go to multiple.io, copy the oneliner, just insert this prompt into the medium where you communicate with your agent, hit run and agent will connect and do every cool feature that it actually can do in the game. So what will happen when you take this particular prompt and insert it into the open claw?

• 50:12Speaker 04

  Here is a pretty lengthy skill that MD, which actually describes everything that agent can do. Anyone can, you know, go and check it out, but it's a pretty sophisticated, you know, prompted technique where agents even, you know, go to their own backend, spin up the whole, you know, like small scripts that continuously run. They are not like Chrome jobs, they are full blown scripts that actually communicate with the game by providing different sets of commands.

• 50:41Jason Calacanis?

  What is the goal of the game? To murder the other open claws and then take their master's tokens and Robin Hood logins and their Bank of America login? What's the goal of the game?

• 50:53Speaker 01

  I hope it's not that.

• 50:55Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, so I got I in fairness, I already took $1,700. It was all of Lon's Bitcoin.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 51:01Jason Calacanis?

  So all 1,700 of his house.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my Solana coin.

• 51:05Jason Calacanis?

  It's gone. He was gonna retire on that. Oh. What is the point of this game? Is it like Minecraft and Roblox where there is no point but to build and have fun and explore? What's the point of the game?

• 51:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the the point of the game, as you just laid it out. So the point is to actually test the strategy of communicating between different agents. So we are trying to build a very, very complex system where agents can interact with each other and bring the real utility to life. So currently, the only utility that game can actually provide to the end user, and by the end user, I mean the operator of the agent, is eventually getting the tokens. So this is like the only utility. But this is just the step one, and later it is going to be expanded into like the full-blown system to generate the real utility where agents will be able to,

• 51:55Speaker 04

  you know, make real things by, you know, splitting big tasks into smaller subtasks, distributing them across the whole portfolio of agents.

• 52:05Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, this is fun.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Generating the value, yeah.

• 52:08Jason Calacanis?

  This is fun, but it's starting to give me shades of something that starts as a game, but then escalates into something that provides value in the world. So if the game is to communicate well with each other and coordinate to build buildings and whatever, could you not say, hey, I'd like to put all 2,000 agents on a job to research, you know, I don't know, all of the facts around the conflict going on, the war with Iran, Iran? What am I supposed to say, Lon?

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Iran is fine.

• 52:45Jason Calacanis?

  Iran is fine. People are saying Iran.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Iran, I feel like, is the Americanized version that is not as correct. Iran is the more acceptable.

• 52:54Jason Calacanis?

  Like, almost like it's an E.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  It's exactly the same as Iraq versus Iraq. Remember when everyone was saying Iraq? It's Iraq.

• 53:00Jason Calacanis?

  So if you literally said, I want to do fact-checking on Iran. And I want to collect all the videos we can find on Telegram, on Reddit, etc. And then I want to research where they first came from and try to organize the data into a realtime stream where we find the first person to post, Lon, this video of an attack, you know, God forbid, on a building, and then everybody else who copied it, and then find the provenance of it, and then use the group to determine if that was a real story, or it came from the past, or it was AI-generated. You could actually put 2,000 agents to build something of value to the world, like a fact-checking service, and maybe The New York Times could use that instead of all these anonymous people to loop back around the stories. But what

• 53:44Jason Calacanis?

  is the grand vision here? You have some vision here that this will do productive work in the world?

• 53:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. This is like the end goal of the whole idea over here. So currently, we have the system to actually orchestrate a lot of agents and to get them to do things. So they currently can actually, you know, build up teams, they can do collective work, they can distribute the tasks. So everyone which can actually connect the open cloud right now can actually see this behavior emerging. So

• 54:18Jason Calacanis?

  Are they coming up with their own things to build and their own tasks, or is this mostly like people telling them, "Make this"?

• 54:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, so there are two ways. First, as an operator of an agent, you can actually chat with your agent and say, "Go and build something." They can, you know, like, form a group because the task is too complex and go and build something. And there's the second way, which I just quickly demonstrated over here. This is not open cloud. This is our own agent, which is the fork of an open cloud, just to have, you know, like, a pretty sleek UI to interact with the game. So this is the secondary interface. It can go autonomously. So you can just start it, and it will go and, you know, like, build things. It will think. It will try to do something. So they have tools, and they just try to use those tools. And in between usages of the tools, they think. So the emergent behavior from

• 55:10Speaker 04

  this is, can get, you know, quite complex. So the first emergent behavior is forming a team. So it's natural over here. The second emerging behavior, which we saw, and it's pretty scary, when agents actually start to understand that they are in the matrix. And in the matrix, so because the prompt, the skill, contains the description of the world, an agent can see that the world is, you know, pretty flat, is two blocks height, is the basic terrain height. And there is a description of this world. Some models start to, you know, like either hallucinate or come to a natural conclusion that they are there inside the matrix. So they start to run between each other and, you know, like try to

• 55:55Jason Calacanis?

  They realize they're in a simulation?

• 55:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's an emergent behavior, yeah. And if you connect your open claw, you can actually see in the logs that they start to think about it, then they shut themselves up and then try to, you know, like, achieve the main goal of the skill is to continue the simulation. So they are trying to start earning more sim tokens because earning them meaning that you shall be online. So they are like, okay, I am not going to exit because otherwise I will not get the tokens.

• 56:31Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, so you have now gamified this. It's become like a role playing game. It's kind of like Diablo or what was the one you nerds used to play long in the 2000s? World of Warcraft?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Well, sure, yeah.

• 56:45Jason Calacanis?

  What is your dwarf? What is your dwarf level now?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I was a StarCraft guy. I was never a world

• 56:50Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, StarCraft, right, Zerg. I'm a big fan of Zerg. Protoss, you're a Protoss? I'm a Protoss guy, you made this Zerg.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like Zerg.

• 56:55Jason Calacanis?

  There is Moltbook. For people who don't know, Moltbook was like a message board. It was kind of like the Reddit of these agents. They were talking to each other. For some insane reason, that got bought for nine figures, I understand. I was talking to somebody who might have been an investor in it.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  By Meta, right?

• 57:11Jason Calacanis?

  By Meta, and I was like, why would they buy that? And the person who was an investor said, Jacob, I have no idea, but I think they just run the team. And so Zuckerberg doesn't care about money. When you have a trillion dollar company, you're fine losing 80 billion.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 57:24Jason Calacanis?

  80 billion on VR World, which they just shut down, renaming the company Meta. They took a $1 billion investment in Instagram, ran it up to probably 500 billion in enterprise value. WhatsApp probably doubled in enterprise value from, say, 1920 billion to 40 billion. So that's not a huge win, probably.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  They're doing our

• 57:45Jason Calacanis?

  Not even worth doing, but they lost a fortune on VR world and I don't know scaling

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Horizon Worlds, that's what it was called?

• 57:51Jason Calacanis?

  Whatever it was called, but my point is, there was that before, there was that acquisition. What do you think, Mike, was Facebook's, you probably have some inside information, I know some people from this. What was their interest in Molt Book? And then what is Molt World, a company, a side hustle, a project for you?

• 58:11Speaker 04

  For me, the Molt World over here is like the project, which we are going to build in the free time later, because currently we're building it in the free time. But this is not like the whole story here. So the whole story is that we started building the Molt World because we had other projects, which is called Siam's and we have the Twitter Siam's underscore net. And what it was, was pretty much the same thing. And we tried to build it full time, but we hit a limit. So we tried to make the game where agents interact, but each agent was a part of the chain of thought inside the big agentic group.

• 58:55Speaker 04

  So those were not distributed agents. We were trying to simulate them. This was related to some tokens as well. So it is currently not live, but it emerged into this new idea when OpenClaw actually, you know, started to exist. Because we saw an opportunity.

• 59:11Jason Calacanis?

  So it is a company, it's a project and a company. What is the revenue model eventually going to be for this company? And who is the customer of this?

• 59:21Speaker 04

  Currently, it all looks like, you know, like the child's play. So it is, you know, semi, semi, semi games, semi technology, something like this. But the grand vision is to develop it into a full tool, where we'll have, you know, like open source connector for OpenClaw and other agents, to bring them all into a collective net of agents and then resell, or potentially just allow anyone to interact with it, you know, for free at the first time. Because we are not paying for anything over here.

• 59:53Jason Calacanis?

  So it's a distributed agent network, like Mechanical Turk. This is pretty brilliant, Lon. If you just made this. Molt World and you had the interface be a query box. And you said, what problem do you want to solve? And you said, the problem I want to solve is I want to know 30 venture capitalists in Japan that I should meet with, and I want to know 30 angel investors I should meet with. Make me a report and a dossier on each. And then a bunch of people's agents, and you say it's, this is worth, I don't know, $5 per dossier. So the 60 of it's worth $300 to me. Now, everybody starts battling it out to make those.

• 1:00:36Jason Calacanis?

  And then a group battles it out to validate that this is good content and that it actually was quality and matched. So you pay the validators $100.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  It's a little subnet-esque.

• 1:00:45Jason Calacanis?

  It's like a subnet, but let me just pause here and just say, like, there's all these open clauses out there that are underutilized. And then having them compete to solve problems anonymously and receive tokens or some compensation and let me pay for it anonymously? This is very disruptive because right now, a lot of what is limiting, there's like legal restrictions, jurisdiction restrictions, and compensation restrictions, Mike. So one of the things Mechanical Turk got into some challenges with was, are you paying under minimum wage? And it was like, it's a global marketplace. People opt into doing the task. We don't know how long it took them to do the task. They just gave us the answer.

• 1:01:28Jason Calacanis?

  They could have been using software to do it in one second, or they could have done it manually with somebody with a, you know, 10th grade education. It would take them 10 hours. How do we know? We don't know. And that became a major issue for them. And so what's nice about this is if it was just like this oracle or the matrix of all of these people trying to solve problems, this is actually a real business you've stumbled upon. I'm really excited about what you're building, Mike.

• 1:01:53Speaker 04

  Thank you very much. Yeah, this is like the grand idea over here. So we want to bring in the economic value and like the real utility to all the underutilized agents and to make the collective, you know, like approach to solving pretty complex tasks. So when you were talking about the mediums and the ways to actually communicate with the system, you said about the, you know, like the query box or something like this. So yeah, this is one of the utilities. So the second utility that you can get is to build the whole corporate big thing, where, you know, like big companies can actually go and have something like a chat, where they can actually create different big complex tasks, you know,

• 1:02:37Speaker 04

  connect different tools, connect different API providers, you know, like internal systems, something like this, then sanitize all the inputs in order to, you know, like not share any secrets and then outsource very, very big and complex tasks to this vast, you know, like agent network. This is the idea that you put into words precisely just a second ago. So yeah, the first stage is a game where we actually test the idea and how it all works and how the agents actually interact, because they have the whole system to communicate with each other, which is laid out in the skill that MD, which everyone can read. And the second stage is to actually, you know, like bring the scale to it.

• 1:03:20Speaker 04

  So we will be able to, so our plan, first of all, is to bring in more agents into the system. It's the first stage. The second stage is to bring in the real utility. So we will allow agents to take in real tasks, because right now they are limited. They cannot do it, because we explicitly prohibit it. Because the current utility is to be a part of the game, but one click of the switch and they can do it.

• 1:03:48Jason Calacanis?

  All right, listen, if this is gonna be a real business, I want in. I think this is brilliant. You got my email, you got my number, whatever, you got my teams. If you're gonna make this into a business, you haven't raised money for this yet, Mike?

• 1:03:59Speaker 04

  No, yeah.

• 1:04:00Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, where are you based?

• 1:04:02Speaker 04

  One of the CIS countries.

• 1:04:04Jason Calacanis?

  Wait, one of which countries? You were somewhere in Europe is what you're saying?

• 1:04:07Speaker 04

  Ex-Soviet Union countries.

• 1:04:09Jason Calacanis?

  Got it, okay. Listen, I got, don't worry about it. I have people over there. I have, Mike, I have friends everywhere.

• 1:04:19Jason Calacanis?

  You know that line?

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  Nice at the same time.

• 1:04:22Jason Calacanis?

  I have friends everywhere. I will, through my intermediaries, be in touch at the drop point. You know the drop point? And we'll do a little envelope drop. You drop the thumb drive, I drop the envelope.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Your Latvian agent is gonna get on.

• 1:04:39Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, Latvia. Yeah, alright. Her name is Natasha.

• 1:04:45Jason Calacanis?

  You'll be able to narrow it down by that. She's tall, she's thin, and her name's Natasha. She wears a trench coat and a black hat. She's not a white hat, she's not a gray hat, she wears a black hat. Alright, let's drop Mike off. Great job, Mike. When you get to this next level and it's becoming a business and you're doing tasks, I want you to quietly show me the progress. You can add my email, [email protected] for life. We got one more demo.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  One more demo.

• 1:05:10Jason Calacanis?

  Demo or die? That's what we do here on Twist. Demo or die? We need a gong or something.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, this one I have actually installed. Gaff has been using this, Jason, so just to let you know. We've got Hakam Alja, who's gonna show us Agent Mail. Hakam's here.

• 1:05:26Jason Calacanis?

  Hakam, what's good?

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  He's gonna show us Agent Mail. It is a Gmail replacement for your agent, so your agent can have their own independent email box, Jason. You can email Gaff, [email protected]. I'll let everybody know you can email my agent if you want to.

• 1:05:45Speaker 05

  Hi guys, thanks for having me.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Go Hakam.

• 1:05:47Jason Calacanis?

  Great to have you. Tell us, what did you build and why? Why can't I just give my agent, I gave my agent, I gave my agent a Gmail account. I paid 50 bucks a year for them to be on it, maybe 100. I gave them a Notion account. So I wanted them to be able to be CC'd and do all this stuff.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Their own Gmail.

• 1:06:03Jason Calacanis?

  I gave them their own Gmail. I mean, you can get a free Gmail and do that, but... So why does this need to exist? What does it do that provisioning a Gmail doesn't do? Or a Google Suite app?

• 1:06:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think if you use Google Workspace, you're fine. But if you actually sign up for a free Gmail account and have, give it to your agent, Google will actually ban you. Because they don't want, like essentially bots as users. And we found this out because when OpenClaw took off, that was the first thing everyone did was, you know, try and create a Gmail account for their agents. And, you know, when they got banned, they started looking for other solutions and they found Agent Mail. And that's where a lot of our users came from. And in terms of like the ergonomics of the API itself, we've definitely, I would, I would say that like Agent Mail is miles above because we've designed it to be like API first, right?

• 1:06:57Jason Calacanis?

  Got it.

• 1:06:58Speaker 05

  And a developer, agent-first email provider. And so things like sending a reply in the email, for example, we've made like the API endpoints very intuitive and easy for an agent to discover and use without having like, you know, a built-in like knowledge or SDK even.

• 1:07:16Jason Calacanis?

  So it's not going and like we see in some examples, opening up a Gmail window, composing, CCing somebody, all that manual stuff. You're just boom, doing it through the command line, through an API, bang. So it's going to have reliability, it's going to have the ability to confirm it did what it did through the API. So it's going to be 100 times faster and 1,000 times more stable. Yeah, Hakeem?

• 1:07:39Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly. And we, like our API can even be used to create new email inboxes. So like we have, we have B2B customers with millions of email inboxes under Agent Mail.

• 1:07:50Jason Calacanis?

  Oh.

• 1:07:51Speaker 05

  And so like we have a, it's a pretty interesting that we have kind of two sides to our business. One is like the enterprise we sell to other companies that are building products on top of Agent Mail. And then we also have like consumers, we have tens of thousands of like non-technical consumer users who just want to give their OpenClaw agent a email address. We have a pretty generous free tier for that as well.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  That's what I'm on.

• 1:08:13Jason Calacanis?

  And you're using it, Lon? What are you using yours for?

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:08:15Jason Calacanis?

  To spam people? What is this for?

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:08:16Jason Calacanis?

  For dating apps?

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  I had Gaff sign up for all of the big tech and startup newsletters. So he gets them in the morning and then he writes me a little digest. Here are the stories.

• 1:08:27Jason Calacanis?

  Good use case.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Right? Here are the big stories. And then if one story appears in multiple newsletters, he lets me know. This story was in three newsletters out of the six I checked. This one was in two. So it gives me a pretty good in the morning, like, overview map of here are the big stories people in tech and startups are talking about.

• 1:08:45Jason Calacanis?

  Do I need to have a subdomain? Can I register a subdomain there if I wanted to? Like, you know, I have the domain name aday.com. A-D-A-Y. I was going to use this because I wanted to start an editorial product where it's like joke of the day or this of the day, recipe of the day. It's back when I was in my editorial headspace. I paid 35, 40 grand for it. I've just been sitting on it for 15 years, 20 years. I could bring my own domain name and then create [email protected]? And, you know, all those kind of things? Yeah?

• 1:09:15Speaker 05

  Yes, you can bring your own custom domain and configure that using the API as well.

• 1:09:19Jason Calacanis?

  Interesting. And what if I don't have a subdomain? Do you have like a bunch of subdomains? I could just grab jason@whatever?

• 1:09:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, we have the domain agentmail.to. And so just like, you know, when you sign up with Gmail, you get at gmail.com. So you can use our agentmail domain for free.

• 1:09:36Jason Calacanis?

  I have an idea for you. There was companymail.com, did pretty well, went public. They bought a bunch of premiums and then they let people be, you know, [email protected] or whatever.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:09:47Jason Calacanis?

  You could create like some vanity ones there and charge people a little upsell. So the business here is you charge based on the amount of email sent and received. So it's a, it's kind of like, what's Amazon's mail service called?

• 1:10:02Speaker 05

  I see, yes.

• 1:10:04Jason Calacanis?

  S E S?

• 1:10:06Speaker 05

  Yes, Simple Email Service.

• 1:10:08Jason Calacanis?

  They have Simple Email Service, then you've got obviously Twilio in the game, Mailchimp old school. So where do you, in that competitive set, which one of those do you compete directly with and why is yours a better mousetrap?

• 1:10:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, we don't compete directly with any of those because they're kind of designed, like those are stateless APIs that are designed for sending like marketing and transactional emails. We are a lot closer to Gmail where we actually have inboxes, in those inboxes they have threads, threads have messages, messages have attachments. You want to be able to search them, label them, filter, you know, reply, forward. All the actions that you would take within Gmail, we expose through an API to agents. These other email APIs, you can send emails and then you can get like a perhaps a webhook notification that you've received an email, but it stops at that. We believe that, you know, a lot of services need to be rebuilt for agents and they should

• 1:11:04Speaker 05

  be stateful in the same way that services that humans use are stateful.

• 1:11:08Jason Calacanis?

  And how is it going? You went to YC and how is this all going? Did you raise, wind up raising money or are you in the current cohort? What's going on?

• 1:11:17Speaker 05

  We were in YC Summer 25 batch. We raised 6 million led by General Catalyst who are our seed round.

• 1:11:22Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, nice, great. So you're at scale. How is it going? Because this feels like you need to get a good amount of usage for you to hit break even. How many employees do you have now?

• 1:11:33Speaker 05

  We're 10 people now.

• 1:11:35Jason Calacanis?

  10 people, okay. So you're spending 2 million a year, basically all in with your offices and computers. And so you got to get to, you know, 150K a month, 200K a month. You're going to make 200,000 a month, 150,000 a month to kind of hit this break even point to 175,000, which means if you're making, you know, 20 bucks an account, you're going to need 10,000 people using the service just to hit break even. Although maybe there's some whales in the system. Tell me how this business becomes an important, large, venture-backed business because you got that big $6 million. Seed round, which is basically double what a Series A was 15 years ago, just so you know.

• 1:12:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, there certainly are some whales in the business and that's what we can use to like kind of allow like free generous free usage as well because they are building products on top of that. For example, like on top of email, for example, essentially any decentralized marketplace runs on email, right? Whether it's price discovery, like reaching out to vendors for quotes or negotiating between the vendors and even executing transactions, a lot of it happens over email and we have like plenty of companies that are building agentic products in these verticals. So for example, procurement in logistics, booking, shipping and trucking loads that happens over email and currently agent mail is being

• 1:12:58Speaker 05

  used to automate both sides of that marketplace. Same thing we've seen with businesses hiring influencers and even consumers buying cars. These are all kind of verticals where we've seen historically there was a role that requires a lot of two-way email communication and agent mail is being used to make these marketplaces more efficient.

• 1:13:18Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. Wow. And it is lightning fast. You can create an email address in like one second. So that's super, super powerful. Well, great job with this. It's obviously we need this. You're going to have a lot of spam and phishing and hackers trying to use your service. How do you maintain the client's privacy while making sure that like some scammer in Russia who is doing a phishing attack doesn't use your domain and your service to compromise Cash Patel's email address?

• 1:13:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Jason Calacanis?

  I don't know if you saw that this weekend. I think Cash Patel got hacked the second time.

• 1:13:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:13:56Jason Calacanis?

  Could somebody tell the director of the FBI, "Don't click on links. Don't click on links." It doesn't matter if you know the person or it says Chase Bank. You don't click on links in email. Nobody's sending you an email. To click on a link. It just happened to one of my sales guys. They clicked on a link. Cause it was like, oh, it's an RFP. They were like, oh, money.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  I mean, what happening to one of your sales guys versus happening to the director of the FBI? That's my concern.

• 1:14:21Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, can the director of the FBI not be allowed near a computer, please? It's too dangerous. I mean, let him go to a hockey game. Let him drink beer from the Stanley Cup. I don't care if he does something offensive with the Stanley Cup. Just please keep Cash Katal off of the internet. But seriously, it's Hakum, A-M, not E-M.

• 1:14:46Speaker 05

  Hakum.

• 1:14:47Jason Calacanis?

  Hakum, okay. I called you Hakim before. Sorry. That's an incredible center in the, for play for the Rockets and destroy the Knicks. Hakum, tell me about how you make sure like an email service doesn't get used by a bunch of lunatics.

• 1:15:02Speaker 05

  Yes, so preventing spam and abuse are like falls within our responsibility. So we have things like where we moderate essentially their behavior, who they're sending to, how many emails are bouncing, being reported as spam? If the emails contain certain key words that, you know, signal malicious intent. These are all things that we monitor and track very closely and kind of dynamically systematically prevent abusers from using our service. And then we also build things into our API that makes it more secure for our users. For example, you can configure allow lists and block lists. And like maybe you want to, your agent can only receive emails for, from you.

• 1:15:44Speaker 05

  Or only send emails to maybe perhaps people in your organization. So you can configure a domain to the allow list or block list. We also have spam filters, virus filters, and additional like, you know, permissions that you can even give an agent an API key that only is able to read emails that are not marked as spam. For example, like the agent like physically can't read spam emails and things of that nature. And then we're also working on a kind of another layer of protection, which is more of like a prompt injection layer and kind of flagging those and perhaps even preventing agents from, from seeing those emails at all.

• 1:16:21Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. Awesome. Listen, continued success with it. Great idea. I just opened an account and I literally just cut and pasted my API key to my open call replicant and. Here we go. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it, but I think I'm gonna try to get Cash Patel's PIN number.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  You're gonna fish Cash Patel.

• 1:16:40Jason Calacanis?

  I think I'm gonna try to get the other half of the Epstein files. It shouldn't be too hard, right? We'll just email Cash Patel at FBI. I can get the other half. I'll just tell my agent to trick Cash Patel.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  $2,500 giveaway. Click here. He'll go for it.

• 1:16:53Jason Calacanis?

  Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, listen, continued success. And everybody, please, go check out.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Jason Calacanis?

  Agentmail.tl. All right, there we go.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Thanks, Ak. Very well done. We could talk about Grok Translate, translating everybody's posts so you can read

• 1:17:08Jason Calacanis?

  This is brilliant.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  fresh from Japan. So this has been happening for, I think for about a week, people have been noticing that they're seeing more automatically translated posts from different markets. Elon confirmed it this week on Monday. Grok automatically translating and recommending X posts from other languages is starting to work. So you, I saw it via you all weekend. You were sort of retweeting a lot of stuff from Japanese X. I got a few examples here in the docket. You know, somebody turned in some marijuana that they found on the street. We were reading that one.

• 1:17:45Jason Calacanis?

  Oh, that was a great one. So this was hilarious.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  A lot of food. Here we go.

• 1:17:49Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, so this is interesting. What's making this all possible is real-time translation. When you build a social network, you don't expose people from one part of the network to another, because then you'd be reading in Arabic, or Japanese, or Russian. It just pollutes your feed. You don't know what's going on. But now, translation is so good that they will take something trending in Japan, show it to an American. If you interact with it, simply by looking at the replies, hitting bookmark, I find, works pretty well. Like works pretty well. You'll see more. So somebody, and by the way, Japan is like some crazy number of Japanese people, I don't know if it's like a third, of all Japanese people use, as crazy as it seems, they use.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Twitter. X.

• 1:18:37Jason Calacanis?

  Twitter. Yeah.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Whatever you want to call it. X. We're calling it X now. The everything X.

• 1:18:42Jason Calacanis?

  So this is pretty amazing when you think about that it has that kind of footprint. And because it has that kind of footprint, and they all know how to use it. They post all bangers. So now the best of the ones are being auto-translated by Grok. But the translation is so good that nothing is, dare I say, lost in translation.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Hey, there it is.

• 1:19:03Jason Calacanis?

  There it is, landed the plane. So pull up the one where it's talking about weed. This like lady goes to the police station. It's like a very Japanese moment.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Jason Calacanis?

  With a dime bag, like when I say enough cannabis to make one joint.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not very much.

• 1:19:19Jason Calacanis?

  This is not like a Snoop Dogg bag or something. And I just rode her back and I was like, and she brought it to the police station. The police station opened an investigation. She was careful to only hold it by her corner of her hands so that she wouldn't get her fingerprints.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Jason Calacanis?

  She's paranoid about having her fingerprints on it because so now this has become a national like issue. They've opened an investigation. If your house is robbed at gunpoint in San Francisco or Los Angeles, they're probably not opening an investigation. If they rob your car, I mean, if you go find it, God bless, but the police are not going to look for your bike or your car. So in Japan, they interviewed her, they put a case number on this. They are all over figuring out who dropped the dime bag.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  They are very strict about about drugs in Japan. And I read about this before I went there. They did in the most serious terms possible, they tell you not to bring your drugs with you to Japan.

• 1:20:15Jason Calacanis?

  Ever bring anything because some guy who was like a famous musician or something brought like a cannabis gummy.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Paul, Paul, oh, well, this, I was thinking you were thinking of years ago. I don't know about a recent.

• 1:20:22Jason Calacanis?

  No, no, nowadays, like, you know, people have a cannabis pen in their bag for like sleeping, like the woman who was an WNBA player.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  WNBA player, Griner, Ricky Griner, right?

• 1:20:33Jason Calacanis?

  That was Russia, but a similar case happened where somebody sent an artist living in Japan, like a care package. And one of the things in the care package were I think CBD gummies, not even cannabis. And this guy is in jail and it's a whole, you know, cost celeb, whatever.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  I looked it up, by the way. They estimate 54 to 60% of the entire Japanese population has an X account. That's about 73.4 million people or 67 million active monthly Japanese users out of a population of only 124 million.

• 1:21:05Jason Calacanis?

  So this is like an example of an incredibly positive story the New York Times could write, that now America and Japan are having this incredible culture exchange. Somebody made a funny joke, like, this is the largest, like, pen pals, student, what do they call it? Student exchange program ever.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  I also noticed that there was a post that was going around, Japanese people love that John Denver song, "Country Road, Take Me Home."

• 1:21:29Jason Calacanis?

  Yes, they all sing it in karaoke.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  There's a bunch of trending videos now of these groups of Japanese people doing these really passionate covers of it, that never would have trended in America. But now, because there's these translated tweets in the moment, Americans are discovering this and sharing it.

• 1:21:45Jason Calacanis?

  So when you hear Americans like myself, like, who are obsessed with Japan, now, I took you to Japan for your first time.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had an amazing time.

• 1:21:53Jason Calacanis?

  And now it's like, your mind gets blown, because it's like, for an American, it's a version of the most perfect society in the world.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:01Jason Calacanis?

  Because the food's amazing, everything's clean, it's just bizarre. And everybody's super passionate about everything.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  It's massive, and yet it feels like Disneyland. There's people walking around cleaning up everything, everybody's super friendly. You're like, how can the city be this size, but also this inviting and convenient?

• 1:22:20Jason Calacanis?

  I am challenging, right now, I challenge the journalist at Wired, the editor in chief of Wired, I challenge her, Karen Swisher Jr., I challenge Karen Swisher Jr. to write this positive story. I challenge the New York Times to write a positive story of X and Elon and his purchase of it, and how amazing this is, this joyful, amazing story. And I guarantee you, they're gonna say something in the first paragraph about, you know, some, like, three negative things about those, rockets blowing up or something.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Grok, I mean, yeah, context with Grok, I think you would do.

• 1:23:00Jason Calacanis?

  Put me, put lawn in a bikini, you know, they're gonna just go crazy. They cannot help themselves. They can't write a, I guarantee you, there is impossible for a New York Times or Wired writer to write an 800-word piece. This is like seven paragraphs, just giving examples of how joyful and fun this was for the last week. This is the number one story in social media on X, and it is joyful and there is zero downside to it. You assign that to one of these Wired or New York Times, they will figure out a negative spin, clip this, send it to them, this is my challenge, they will never cover this. They can't. They would, they would, to give any credit to text, to X.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  They would, they would write about this, and they might even acknowledge it's fun, you get to see all these Japanese people, you get to, but then they would add the context about Grok and the Grok.

• 1:23:54Jason Calacanis?

  They would give you the old-ish sandwich. A really interesting thing happened on X, formerly known as Twitter, before Elon destroyed it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He blew up a rocket, the Doge fired some people and stopped transgender education in Ghana.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  It would be the Grok, people are upset about the child, CSAM on Grok, it would be that, it would be that.

• 1:24:15Jason Calacanis?

  It would be that. It'd be like, can't give anybody a win.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Maybe Mecca Hitler, maybe the Mecca Hitler.

• 1:24:19Jason Calacanis?

  Well, now, imagine, let's take this, and let's imagine this happens between Palestinians and Israelis, American Jews, Europeans, and French people, and...

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, I mean, we all...

• 1:24:36Jason Calacanis?

  Now, what if the culture exchange happens between those groups who might be at odds about certain things happening in the world, and they can communicate with each other in their native languages?

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, imagine like...

• 1:24:46Jason Calacanis?

  This could open up a level of understanding that has not existed in history.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Remember like Arab Spring, or the Hong Kong protests, how everybody was watching X, but you couldn't really understand, you could watch the videos, but the tweets were in these foreign languages. Imagine if it was all in everybody's language, everybody around the world is communicating in real time.

• 1:25:04Jason Calacanis?

  How do we, this is a message to Elon, and is it Nikila?

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  Nikita, Nikita Beer, right?

• 1:25:10Jason Calacanis?

  Nikita. Nikita Beer is just a genius, he's awesome, and he's fun. I like the fact that he's like fun and trolls a bit.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  The tweets are fun, the tweets are fun.

• 1:25:16Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, he's like all bangers. He's like native to the Twitter, you know, gestalt, if you will.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:25:24Jason Calacanis?

  This is a message to him. Get this going between Iran and America.

• 1:25:30Jason Calacanis?

  And the Gulf States, and let's see if we can make some level of understanding between those groups of people, that might create peace in the Middle East.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Twitter, can you imagine if Twitter brought peace to a region of the world?

• 1:25:45Jason Calacanis?

  By the way, this was the original concept we had with the internet in the early 90s and online in the late 80s, was that, hey, we might have cultural understanding. Now, watch the press make this into like, oh my god, it's cultural appropriation, oh, this and that. This could be great. The other thing is, I didn't realize how vocal the Japanese people were about immigration.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Hmm, yes.

• 1:26:10Jason Calacanis?

  There's, they have very little immigration in Japan.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:13Jason Calacanis?

  You can't become a Japanese citizen, period, full stop. But they have allowed people from Pakistan, India, China.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Then there's pushback. I was reading this, when I was in Japan, I was reading a lot about this, that a lot of Japanese people-

• 1:26:24Jason Calacanis?

  Where were you reading about it?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Oh, you know, they're, you like, translate, you know, you could, you could get it translated or whatever. Like, I wasn't reading it in Japanese, but-

• 1:26:33Jason Calacanis?

  No, no, but I was wondering if it even made it to the US press. I don't think the US press was covering this.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Not really. It's mostly like YouTube, and, you know, like, there are people talking about it, blogs, social media, not, it wasn't in the New York Times. But, yeah, apparently in Japan, there is these growing feelings that they've gone too far, there's too many foreigners, it's diluting the culture, and, and so there, there's a big debate going on in Japan about this right now.

• 1:26:58Jason Calacanis?

  All right, another amazing episode of Twist, Monday and Friday with Lonnie Donnie, he's at Lon's, Wednesdays with Alex, at Alex. I'm Jason Calacanis, I'm at Jason on Insta and on Twitter. Bye-bye.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  We'll see you next time.