Anthropic Gives Away 5% of Its Shares, Clone’s Muscle Robot, ElevenLabs Steals Podcaster's Voice

This Week In Startups is made possible by: Plaud: https://plaud.ai/twist Northwest Registered Agent: https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/twistdomain Vanta: https://www.vanta.com/twist Rippling: https://rippling.ai/twist Today’s show: Jason can’t stop praising Nathan Fielder’s new A24 hybrid documentary about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, “You Can See Everything,” and he’s insisting that Lon check it out before the next podcast. Hear his spoiler-free review, how the film upended his expectations based on Fielder’s previous work, and why Lon also recommends Lance Oppenheim’s HBO Max series “Ren Faire.” Plus, we’re talking to Clone Robotics co-founder and CEO Dhanush Radhakrishnan about why he thinks robots should not just be humanoid but should look and move precisely like humans. We’re digging deep into how his hydraulic myofiber artificial muscle technology alters and even improves on the pulley-based systems being deployed by competitors, why he thinks the models that power domestic helper-bots will be commoditized, and how quickly he thinks he can put a robo-butler in every American home. Plus we’re comparing the potential impact of Anthropic’s new Public Benefit Fund vs. Elon Musk’s plan to give every baby a share of SpaceX, and re-considering simulation theory after Odyssey dropped an artificial fruit fly brain into an artificial landscape. Guest Dhanush Radhakrishnan on X: https://x.com/dhanushisrad Clone Robotics: https://clonerobotics.com/ Related Links “You Can See Everything” trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvW_N5p1q44 “You Can See Everything” on Rotten Tomatoes: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/you_can_see_everything John Carreyrou’s Theranos investigation (Wall Street Journal): https://www.wsj.com/articles/theranos-has-struggled-with-blood-tests-1444881901 “Ren Faire” HBO Max trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHZUVTrrexE “Nathan for You”: Smokers Allowed clip (Comedy Central): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HttB2fYAm-8 Anthropic: Investing in the Public Benefit: https://www.anthropic.com/news/public-benefit-fund Elon Musk SpaceX pledge: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2112089556615123114 Dell’s $6.25B Invest America commitment: https://www.onedell.com/investamerica/ Odyssey Fly Simulation X post: https://x.com/odysseyml/status/2111589148146749616 Chris Williamson: “The ElevenLabs Situation is Crazy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxDNHLgWInU ElevenLabs’ Legendary Voices marketplace: https://elevenlabs.io/iconic-marketplace TWiST newsletter on Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com/ LAUNCH Careers page: https://careers.launch.co/ Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:10 Plaud - If your work depends on conversations - interviews, meetings, calls - you need a Plaud NotePin S. You can check it out at https://plaud.ai/twist and use code TWIST for 10% off! 03:18 Jason's "You Can See Everything" reaction 14:37 Northwest Registered Agent - Got a new business idea? Northwest Registered Agent helps you bring it to life. Get a free domain, email, phone number, and more - with no purchase required! Learn more at https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/twistdomain 15:27 What films max out RT's critic and audience scores 20:08 Anthropic commits 5% equity to Public Benefit Fund 24:28 Would equity change how Americans feel about AI? 27:08 Vanta - Get $1000 off your SOC 2 at https://www.vanta.com/twist 38:38 Rippling - Thanks to our partners at Rippling! Head to https://rippling.ai/twist and get the only AI built to give you full visibility across your startup and take complex actions across your entire business. 39:48 Dhanush from Clone Robotics joins the show 42:43 How hydraulic muscle technology actually works 54:55 When can we have our robot butlers please? 56:55 Where will Clone get its robot brains? 1:12:17 Odyssey trapped a fake fly brain in a simulated environment 1:23:09 Did ElevenLabs steal a podcaster's voice? 1:30:13 Check us out on Substack! Subscribe to our newsletters on Substack: TWiST: https://twistartups.substack.com/ TWiAI: https://www.thisweekinai.ai/ TWiVC: https://thisweekinvc.substack.com/ Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp Follow Lon: X: https://x.com/lons Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis Check out all our partner offers: https://partners.launch.co/ Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekinstartups Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com

• 0:00Speaker 00

  All right, everybody, welcome back to This Week in Startups, Monday, October 19th. Twist, Lon Harris is here.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Lot in the news, lots going on, don't want to lose a minute of it. That's why I have a plod on the back of my phone. So great, because if I'm in a meeting, if I have an ad hoc meeting, I can say, hey, can I record this? And then I press the button, boom, I'm recording, I put it on the desk, I'm all set. Beautiful microphone, I do this a couple of times a week with the back of my phone. And then sometimes, yeah, I put a plod pin like you have on your... I mean, I don't like the way you're wearing it, it looks ridiculous. That's why I think you gotta go black. No, you have to, you're using the clip on, you gotta use the magnetic back. I think that's the...

• 0:47Speaker 01

  I could do that.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  I just dropped, I just dropped a magnetic back in my closet.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Oh, no. I can do that.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  Tastes delicious.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  I think I have the magnetic back, I think it works even just like this. Watch this.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  Oh, if you have the magnetic back, you put it on the lapel.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go, see?

• 1:03Speaker 00

  Much better if it's not clipped on, but you gotta put it vertical.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  That's magnetic.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  Oh, vertical. But it should be, yeah, yeah, got the style sense of this guy. I'm trying to help you with style, my friend.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  I didn't realize vertical was more savvy than horizontal.

• 1:17Speaker 00

  No, that looks, that's a much more elegant look. You press the button, then you have the notes. We put these Plod notes, because they're so good, into our show notes. We used to have to pay somebody to do three hours of writing show notes. Now we have 100 times more comprehensive show notes for this very podcast. Created in the Plod app. The Plod app works on your desktop, it works on your phone. It just works. And man, when you look at the library, somebody pull up the library of Plod templates you can do? Oh, my God, Plod templates.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  It's really, they're thinking ahead about anything you might want to use the Plod recording for. Like, obviously, meeting notes, that's sort of universal, but maybe you're a teacher, maybe you want to record a lesson plan on Plod. Maybe you're having a conversation as prep for a podcast, and, you know, so you want to like, lay it all out that way, like, who said what? Maybe you're planning an interview and you want it to be in Q and A format. Whatever you're writing, Plod can sort of figure out how to turn the audio that you recorded into that, that thing. It's web.plaud.ai for the desktop app, folks, that's where to go.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  That's where the web app lives.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  That's where the web app lives, if you want to find all of these great templates. But if you want to just go check it out, learn more for yourself, we urge you to go to plaud.ai/twist, use the code TWIST to get 10% off your purchase, whether you get Jason's version of the Plod that goes on the back of your phone, my Plod, no pin S, or anything else, you'll get 10% off, just go to plaud.ai/twist and use that code TWIST.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Look at this beauty, transcript, summary, meeting highlights, teaching note.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  What's teaching note? Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  This is if you were teaching like a seminar and you wanted to use our amazing and highly informative podcast, this is gonna arrange everything that you heard for instruction and to make a lesson plan out of it, and discussion prompts and how to talk about it with a class.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  All right, we gotta start with, we gotta start with the Nathan Fielder film.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. You can see, you saw everything.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  I did see everything. Now, I'm a little close to this.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Because I had, I had commented, and John Kerryru's first appearance after he did his investigative report from the Wall Street Journal that blew this hood open was on This Week in Startups. I was the first person to interview John Kerryru, who should have won a Pulitzer for his work on this. I'm not sure why he didn't win it, there was some, and I asked him about that, there was some sort of submission issue. But for some reason, he didn't win a Pulitzer, but he cracked this whole case open.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  And he is convinced that, you know, from his reporting, that Elizabeth Holmes and Balwani are...

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Sonny, Sonny Balwani.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Right. Sonny Balwani, the president of Theranos, vice chair of the board, Elizabeth's CEO, and chairman of the board, chairperson, they were in cahoots to commit a huge fraud. So Nathan Fielder got access to Elizabeth Holmes.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  Got access to Elizabeth Holmes 30 days before the, before she was incarcerated. And so there he is in the background. Now, just tell everybody who Nathan Fielder is and why this is so important when you're trying to figure out what this documentary is going to be. And I'll just say, this is the greatest documentary of all time, and I've seen them all.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Wow, big, big praise. Yeah, I mean, Nathan Fielder, an amazing comedian, he's been doing shows for a while now. He started on Comedy Central with Nathan For You. I believe there were, he's from Canada, and I think there was Canadian content first that I've not seen, but his first big American splash was Nathan For You on Comedy Central. And he's always, they are nonfiction shows, he's engaging with real people that they cast and that they find, but he's also always playing sort of a heightened character. And the bit in Nathan For You was Nathan Fielder's a graduate of one of Canada's top business schools, and he's going to find struggling small business owners and come up with unconventional ways to sort of fix their company.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  And one of my favorite episodes is called Smokers Allowed, and it's this struggling bar, they've outlawed smoking in bars, but all the regulars who hang out at this bar want to smoke. And so Nathan comes in and his suggestion is, well, if we make your dive bar into a play, if it's a staged production simulating a dive bar, you'd be allowed to smoke. Because like, if you're putting on a play, you're allowed to smoke on stage.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Really?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  That's freedom of speech. So that's his solution. So they take the bar, they add an audience section, and they just turn the bar into a scripted reenactment. So the patrons rehearse before they go in to hang out in the bar, and they make it legally a play so that they're allowed to smoke while they hang out and they're drinking. And that's an example of, you know, the elaborate premises he's coming up with and then reenacting with real people. Then he did that show, The Rehearsal, that's on HBO, and it's the same kind of concept. He's rehearsing the real life scenarios with real people, but in this fictionalized meta way.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Now, what do we call it? Meta is the obvious term, you might call this.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, right, meta narrative, or it's like pseudo-documentary or mockumentary, where he's like, there's an element that's scripted and fictional, but then there are real people and there's real world tension, and he's engaging with that as well. So like, season one of The Rehearsal was, what if you rehearsed having a family to see if it was something you really wanted to do? So he gets an actress to play his wife, and he gets an actress to play his kid.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Got it, so these are social experiments.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Very much so, yes.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Got it, okay.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  So that's what I think is so interesting about him making a documentary about a real world fraudster, is that there is already that element to alleged. No, she's in jail.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Alleged, but she's been convicted, so...

• 7:35Speaker 01

  It's, it's happened, yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Alleged according to the United States justice system. And there's a reason why I'm saying that, Lon, because this...

• 7:45Speaker 01

  I haven't seen the both. But I think that's the interesting tension of this, is that he's already known for like, well, what's real, what's true, what's manipulated? And then he's interviewing this person who very famously has also been playing around with the line between reality and fiction. So, so how did you see that tension playing out over the course of this whole film? Obviously, while keeping things spoiler free for our audience.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Yes, this is spoiler free J. Cal review. On Wednesday or Friday, Lon will have seen the film. He had things he had to get done, he didn't see the most important film of the 21st century. But he's gonna catch up, because he's a Nathan fan, and this is the most important, this is the most important film of the 21st century. So, best, and I, and I will say, I have not seen...

• 8:32Speaker 01

  The Odyssey.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  The Odyssey. So perhaps that is, because I was waiting to see an IMAX 70 millimeter, and I don't know why I can't do that, but apparently there's, there's no way for a human being to buy tickets to that. This film starts out with the documentary you've been sold on Lon. As in the trailer, the 30 days before he goes. But halfway through the film, and it says, no spoiler, she goes to jail. You know, she's going to jail, right? Because that's the premise of the film. So no spoiler, no spoiler, no spoiler today. But I want to tease it a bit because I want everybody to see it. So we can talk about it on Wednesday's show. We have a Wednesday show.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  We're doing a VC roundtable Wednesday. We have a bank show on Friday. May I recommend Monday for this?

• 9:12Speaker 00

  No, you may not. We're going to do it for Wednesday and we're going to tell everybody who's on the roundtable. They have to see it. So get on the horn with everybody. Please see the film for Wednesday. We have to talk about it now while it's hot. Making, I'm making an editorial decision.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  All right, we're making.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  As is my want. This is such an important film. I'm calling an audible here. Ask everybody on the show Wednesday to please do it. And what we'll do is at the end of the show, we will do it as anybody who saw it. We'll do the last 30 minutes of the show on that. You know, minutes 50 to 120. First 50 minutes of this week of VC. If you didn't see it, they can jump off, but that will be our spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Review. This review is just not spoiler. Anyway, she is so, and her fiance, husband, I believe husband, they say partner. Billy Evans, who was at the All In Summit, interviewed by Friedberg.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Went viral.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  He's an interesting cat. I'll leave it at that. He turns out to be as much of the story as Elizabeth Holmes, which is extremely high bar. The second half of the film, I will not tell you about now. I will talk about it in detail on Wednesday when Lon's seen it and whoever else we can get on who's seen it. Goes into the Nathan Fielder meta commentary area. This is a three hour film. And so you're talking about, I don't know, somewhere between minutes 60 and 90, she goes to jail. And then a third person shows up who I will not say who it is.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  You know who it is. I beg you not to see any spoilers and to just go see this in theaters. And I hate spoiler culture. But when that third person shows up, now this thing goes completely off the rails. And there is a meta commentary on top of meta commentary on top of meta commentary, which is, I'll just highlight a couple of themes without being spoiler. One, what is, who is this person, Elizabeth Holmes? And who is her partner? And since they are building a new version of Theranos, which is public information. You may or may not know that, but they have been talking publicly about a new version of Theranos. They're doing it again. And then the whole fake it till you make it exaggeration culture of Silicon Valley is addressed in this.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  It is addressed head on. And then you add to it a layer of who's responsible here? And are people in Silicon Valley or tech people? Do they have Asperger's? Or do they think differently? Or are they sociopaths? Or are they pathological liars covering their tracks? It's layers of that. But of course Nathan Fielder has this inherent in who he is as well. As a trickster manipulator of media. You put these things together and then the social relationship between the people who are in this film gets explored.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  It is so mind blowing on a storytelling cinema basis. It is so mind blowing on a societal, cultural basis. It is so mind blowing on a meta analysis of truth and responsibility. And the lies we tell ourselves, our personal responsibility, all of that is so of the moment. That's why people are losing their mind. Now, I went into it as a cynic saying, okay, I understand Nathan Fielder's shtick. I've seen his work. I find it interesting. I enjoy it, but I'm not a stan.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  But I would watch anything he makes, obviously as a stan. But I am obsessed with the Elizabeth Holmes story because it's our industry. I have met her. I commented on it. And like I said, I had John Kerry Ru on before anybody multiple times. So I'm very familiar with the story.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  We watched the dropout of this show as well. The Hulu series based on.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Which was extraordinary. Did she win an Emmy for it, the actress on that?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Amanda Seyfried. I think she, I think she won. She was definitely nominated.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  I think she won because her portrayal is so good. That, you know, it's like uncanny. It's uncanny how good her portrayal is. I just want to say, I went into it Lon, as cynical as one can be. Because I think Nathan's shtick can, I don't know, it can be sticky at times, right? I think.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  Sometimes brilliant. It's hit or miss. Would you agree it's hit or miss?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  I think he's usually pretty, pretty on the mark, but it is definitely, I mean, Nathan, for you especially, it's that cringe comedy. That a lot of people, it makes them a little uncomfortable. They don't always enjoy where he's putting real people in awkward or strange scenarios. It's sort of almost embarrassing them. And that's not for, that's definitely not for everybody.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  Right. So I will stop there. With the statement, I went in with a little bit of cynicism that this was going to be overhyped. You've seen the hype, 100%.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  God, it's, people are going.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  On Rotten Tomatoes?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  A lot of people are saying what you are saying, which is this is the film of the year. This is going to be the first documentary to get best picture. Like there's, it's that level of hype now.

• 14:36Speaker 00

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• 15:21Speaker 00

  Learn more at northwestregisteredagent.com/twistdomain. So Rotten Tomatoes, 98%.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Fresh popcorn meter, 98%. What's the difference between those two numbers?

• 15:34Speaker 01

  The, the, the left number is critics and the right number is random Rotten Tomatoes members.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Okay. And this is after 121 professional reviews and 1,000 plus verified ratings.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Right. So critics in the left, anybody who's got an account at Rotten Tomatoes can vote on the right.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Verified ratings, does that mean they verified they went to the movie?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 00

  Somehow?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  I guess so, yeah. Like, or they're, they're members of Rotten Tomatoes.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Click on it. What does it say there? I'm just curious. Is it mean they're verified? All right. Go look it up. I'm curious what that means.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I bet you anything that they do make you because that they were getting inundated with those fake like review bombing.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Maybe they make you buy your Fandango ticket from it in order to write the review.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Maybe, let me check.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  That would be incredible.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  I used to work for Rotten.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Now, of course, people could just buy a Fandango ticket and not see it and spam.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  They match your email to a confirmed ticket purchase through Fandango. You're absolutely correct.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  That was what I inferred from it. And great job to the, to the Rotten Tomatoes team there for doing that. Have you ever seen 9898? I mean, that's kind of crazy.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  It's exceptionally high. Like not only very rare for critics to get 98, which means 2% of all the reviews in the country were negative, which is already a lot. But for the critics and the audience to both match up there is very rare.

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Is there a higher film?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  There are a few movies this year that have a 100% critic score.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, we know about that. That's the woke nonsense.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  But there is nothing else I'm seeing that has both 98s on the critics and audiences. Closest seems to be The Furious, that martial arts movie that I didn't get to see yet. That has a, oh, The Furious, it's supposed to be amazing. It's 97% from critics, 90% from audiences. That's as close as I've found.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Oh, well, that's far off. That's like a full 13 points off. That's 187. This is 196. So is there a combined score of 196? I'm wondering.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I'm not seeing, I'm now scrolling.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  They must have a top 100 list, right?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that's exactly what I'm looking through. I'm looking through the top 100 scores this year, but they're all critics based.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  All time.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  I mean, Is God Is was amazing, 97% critic score, only 85% from audiences. So audiences.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  There's always that gap.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Audiences are a tough nut to crack. Coyote versus Acme, 96% critics, 93% audiences. So.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yes, the Jujutsu Kaisen movie seems to have gotten two 98s as well.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  The what film?

• 18:06Speaker 01

  It's an anime, Jujutsu Kaisen. It's a popular anime.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  All right. So anime nerds bomb the ratings.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  That's not this year.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Well, what is like the, what, if you were to put the greatest film of all time Gladiator or Blade Runner? I don't know. The green, what's the, the Green Mile? What's like?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  The Green Mile? I'm just an interesting.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Not the Green Mile. What's the other one? The, what's the one where he goes to jail with Morgan Freeman or whatever?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Shawshank Redemption.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Shawshank Redemption, yes.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Gladiator, amazingly, 80% from critics, 87% from audiences. So.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  Makes no sense.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Underappreciated in its time Gladiator.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  The Godfather. What would The Godfather be?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Well, I'll look it up.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  The Wild Robot, 9898. That, I think some of these suffer, I think some of these suffer from low number of people who've seen it, right? The Godfather is 97 from critics.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  97, 98 for Godfather.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  Seven Samurai, 100, Casablanca, 99. So Chinatown, 98. So it's number, it's currently number seven. No, it'd be number six on the ratings here with very few people ahead of it or something like that. Battle of the Joes, Schindler's List. Yeah, these are critics favorites. Let's put this all aside. We'll talk about it on Wednesday. Hopefully at least one of our VCs on the roundtable will have seen it. What else is in the news?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Today or tomorrow. All right, let's talk about.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  You can see it, just so you know how great a boss I am, you can leave work early to go see it. I will pay for your ticket. I will pay for your fucking potlum, Lon.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  I'll go tomorrow.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  I'll pay for your Big Gulp. You can get a slushy.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Tomorrow, I'll clear out some afternoon and I will go see them. But I'm very, I'm very eager to see it. I'm actually a Lance Oppenheimer fan as well, of the director. The other director who worked with Nathan on it. Did you see that HBO series Ren Faire?

• 19:54Speaker 00

  I did not.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  That's the same director. He made this. It's, I don't want to blow anything about it. Go to HBO Max, watch Ren Faire. It's incredible. You'll love it.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Okay, what's in the news, Lon? Let's get a news story or two out of the way. We have a great guest.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely, we do. We do. This is, it's an awesome guest. Yesterday, Anthropic announced that it's putting 5% of its stock into a fund for public benefit projects. Stockholders still have to approve the plan, but the board will have discretion to add an additional 2% for every 50% of the company's value above a set baseline, which has yet to be disclosed, according to CNBC. At a $2 trillion valuation, that first 5% that they're pledging alone is worth around $100 billion. Elon Musk responded to the post yesterday on X. He's saying that Anthropic should just give the shares directly to the public, which is what he plans on doing. He then posted his own link saying,

• 20:47Speaker 01

  "Next year, I will give one of my SpaceX shares to every kid in America, and this will be the first of many." Jason, so.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  So this is the Invest America rebranded Trump Accounts, which I just want to say, I told Brad Gersher over poker at one point, "You know what would be smart? You should call these Trump Accounts and get Trump behind it." I'm just leaving it at that. They did exactly that. They're called Trump Accounts now. I'm not taking credit for anything. But I did, I believe I was the first person to suggest this because.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  That's the best way to get DJT behind whatever your plan is, is we're gonna name it after you and your picture will be on the front of it. That's, that's.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Listen, I really would like to see the Gowanus and the BQE in Brooklyn, Brooklyn Queens Expressway finally fixed.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  The Donald Trump Expressway, yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Donald Trump DJT Expressway. Let's get it done, folks. Put his name on any.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  We can always wait a few years and then call it something else. It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  Okay, the scope of Elon's, I think it's trading at 150 bucks a share. I'm gonna guess there's, how many kids are born every year?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Ooh, great question.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Five million a year, three, four, five million a year? I don't know. 1% of our population grows a year, something to that effect?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Approximately 3.6 million babies are born in the United States every year. Well done.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Perfect. I kinda knew that in the back of my head because I keep track of population growth. I do. It's one of those metrics I need to know. So that's 3 million. 3 million, so 1 million at $150 a share is 150 million. 3 million's 500 is a half a billion.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  He's gonna do this every year for 10 years. I don't know if he's gonna look back on every kid under 10 years old or whatever, but it seemed like he was doing a large group of kids. I saw on the interwebs, this would be a $10 billion donation. And then eventually like $100 billion donations. This is a significant donation in the history of donations.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  That's what I was gonna say. We're getting into the territory where this would be the largest single endowment, public endowment of all time.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  In both cases, perhaps. So in the Anthropic case, 2% at 100 billion. And then if it does double in value, or every 50% it goes up in value, if it's at 2 trillion, it goes a billion, that's another 20 billion in. So if it does that five times, okay, now it's 200 billion put into this. And the original 100 billion would be in stock, therefore that would have gone 5X.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  So if you catch my drift here, the original 100 billion turns into 500 billion. You're adding 20 billion a year. That goes up some amount, 50%. So over 20 years, if this becomes a $100 trillion company, or a $20 trillion company, we could be talking about potentially a trillion dollars in both cases over time. What this is gonna do for American society is unprecedented. And it's gonna start, what started to happen is now a preference stack. And this happened with Trump getting elected. Remember, we saw the preference stack? You know, certain people were major Democratic supporters, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, Chamath.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  They were, or famously in our industry, Shervin Pishvar was a big Obama super PAC kinda guy. Just raised, I don't know, tens, hundreds of millions of dollars. All of that now is going to a preference stack. The Obama preference stack turned into the Trump. Now it's turning into the Invest America preference stack. This also happened previously with Bill Gates doing the Giving Pledge. The Giving Pledge was a soft pledge. Half my money will go to charity by the time I die. And you sign the Giving Pledge, but it was an honor-based system. Who knows if it ever would have happened? And it was a bit performative. I'll just leave it at that. This is real. This is a real deal.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, we have a, if you want to take a trip back into history, we have a clip of you talking about this exact thing from April of this year.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  The public benefit corporation versus just directly distributing shares to Americans. Let's take a look at, let's take a look at April J. Cal.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Looking thin. April J. Cal. That's not happening. You know who's done a great job? Michael Dell. You know why Michael Dell's done a great job? Is because he put $6 billion of his own money, which is a fraction of his net worth. Forget about the stupid Giving Pledge. If you just say to Americans, "Hey, we're gonna get the other 40% of people who are not participating in the equity holding of these great companies." If you just change that, everybody's gonna feel differently. And you know how you know this? Anybody who's on this call, who has exposure to a venture firm in SpaceX, in Claude, or any of these companies, we feel great about the economy. Any of our family members who have exposure to our venture firms, or, you know, who have a 401K with Google in it or Nvidia in it, they feel great.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  People who don't feel great, they don't own equities. They don't own a piece of the prize. What we really need to do, in my mind, is be honest with people. There are gonna be entire jobs retired, just like phone operators and receptionists are gone. The typing pool's gone. The mailroom's gone. Society went on. It's not a big deal. Bad jobs that can be automated always get retired. And it may happen a little faster this time. At the same time, by the way, all of these great entrepreneurs, all of these great philanthropists, instead of putting money into nonprofits, which takes 60 cents on the dollar, and they pay these, you know, overpriced mids to, you know, be in $110 office space, which is better than all of our collective office space.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  And they sit there and, you know, yenta it up and, you know, decide they're gonna try to save the world. Well, 70 cents on the dollar to their comp in their office space. Good use. Just give people directly some goddamn shares of SpaceX and Anthropic, and the entire problem is solved. And then America.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  I thought that was such an important point, that it's giving America, everyday people, a little taste. There's so much hatred. Let them let their be. There's so much anger towards AI because people feel like they're being left out. Like, all these rich people are gonna get a lot richer from AI, and I'm just gonna be sitting here with my ChatGPT. I don't see any upside. And you give people a little, even a little bit of upside, I think you would see opinions about AI generally shift a lot. If people felt like, "I stand to earn a little money if Grok does better."

• 27:07Speaker 00

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• 27:51Speaker 00

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• 28:31Speaker 00

  which is the NASDAQ composite, basically the top 100 NASDAQ companies, I think it's QQQ. You know, that's gonna be like 10X investment in 20 years. So if people start seeing $500 in their, it turns into 5,000. And they start putting in 50 bucks a month themselves, and they have this account created, that's what kinda happens when you get one of these. Until you have a credit card, you don't know how to use a credit card, then you get a credit card, it becomes part of your financial literacy, you start learning. You don't have a phone, you don't have a car, you get a car, you get insurance, you get a title, you get registration, you get the little sticker that you've been inspected. You learn that whole stack of owning a car. You went through that, yes, Lon, at some point as a young adult.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Some people are not going through that, they don't get literacy on cars and owning a car, maintaining a car.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  It is a process you have to figure out the first time you do it on your own, for sure.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  And it's nuanced with many steps. When you get pulled over by, you know, and it's not just a driver's license, folks, when you get pulled over, driver license, registration, insurance, and then the inspection, and you know, there's a whole stack you have to learn. You have to learn the financial stack. We don't teach the financial stack.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  This is going to just immediately educate people because they can't touch it for 18 years, they're not allowed to touch it. So now you're forced to watch 500 or $1,000 if this keeps going, you know, you're going to have Google participate, I'm sure, Microsoft, Apple, Nvidia, they're all going to be kind of pressured into doing this. And there's two interesting things happening here. There's individuals, Glenn Shotwell did something for kids in her region, you can do these things by region, you know, so if you're like a kid from Brooklyn, you can give every kid from Brooklyn, whatever it is. I don't think you can do, I can't do it for like Italian, you couldn't do it for Jewish kids, I can't do it for Greek kids, I don't think you're allowed to do it.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  There are, there are.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  You could do Astoria, you could say, I'm doing it for Astoria.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I think.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  No, actually, you could, you could say, I'm doing it for everybody at my Greek church, you could do it to everybody at your synagogue or your mosque.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  That's what I was going to say, is you could do things for your temple, for your community center, you know, whatever.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  So anyway, I think this is like, but that could happen, and that could be a beautiful, wonderful thing. Now, kids, you know, they get to $1,000, now you 20x 1,000 in 20 years, 30 years, now it starts to become serious chatter, but most of all, they learn. Now, I don't like about this Anthropic thing, public benefit corporation, trust, whatever fugazi, fugazi, whatever that is, that to me, it's got a lot of fingerprints on it that it's going to be a slush fund. And I know people have these kind of slushy fundies and they splashy cash it around, and it's like, they're cousins nonprofit, they're uncles this, there's a lot of wiggle room here.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that money's going into an account, and then the people who run Anthropic are going to decide what they want to spend that money on, and I think that's where a lot of people get suspicious, like, well, just give me the shares rather than Anthropic sitting on it, and, because I think a lot of us also maybe don't necessarily trust Anthropic's leadership 100%, don't, don't, it's hard to believe that they're going to make a decision about how to spend that money that's going to be 100% consistent with what most Americans would prioritize.

• 31:49Speaker 00

  They're going to yent it up, as I said in my clip.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  They're going to get involved in everybody's business, like I said, jerking people's chains, this group of people's going to get special treatment, this group of people's going to get left out, and it could create more division.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  What's so pure about this, and you got to give the Invest America team, Michael Dell, Susan Dell, President Trump, Brad Gersh, you got to give them all their flowers for this, you know, you can hate Trump all you want, but he did push this through, and even if you are the most cynical socialist, orange man, bad person in the world, I'm not talking about Elon, I'm just talking about any person who hates Donald Trump.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Not great.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  You could hate Donald Trump and love this. It's, I'm going to give you permission, not Elon, a person who has these feelings, you can love this and completely hate Donald Trump, it's okay. You could be against every fiber of your being, you could protest Donald Trump every day of your life, and still say, I give him credit for this, because this solves socialism. Bernie Sanders needs to come out, Elizabeth Warren needs to come out, Mondami needs to come out, AOC needs to come out, and they need to say, this is fantastic, I applaud you for doing this for young people. And let's get, where's the left on this? Where's Reid Hoffman?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Well, Pinkist, I think, flipped, but whoever's like the left, let's see them start doing this. And on my final note, I tweeted today, where's President Trump and his family on this? I believe President Trump and his family should give half of their, half the increase in their net worth during this term, the 47th term, to this. So whatever Truth Social gained or lost, whatever their crypto projects gained or lost, data centers, whatever they're involved in, they should pledge half of that, because we know that it was, we know being president has its benefits.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  He's made a lot of money by being president, we all know.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  While being president, now, I'm not saying there's any grift thing, I'm not saying any special things happen, if that happened, that'll be adjudicated by our legal system, which is great at adjudicating these things.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Get ready for that, when the Democrats win the midterms, that's coming, so.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  If they win, maybe that happens, but I'll be honest, I think they, I think people know how to do this now, the same way, you know, Obama, you know, or, you know, comes out of office and they know how to do the Spotify, the Netflix deals, and when Hillary came out of office, they know how to do the speaking gigs, I got offered to have Bill Clinton speak for a quarter million, half million at conferences I was doing back then, people reached out to us, hey, for a quarter million, half million, you want to have the president show up? Other people did it, I didn't. All that, if you want to call it grift, or if you want to call it appreciation during and after your presidency, it happens. We should come up with rules against it.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  After, I think after is okay.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  I think after is better.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  After is much better.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  After feels better.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  After feels much better.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  But if you have a business, like, what am I supposed to, if I had, if I owned Mar-a-Lago, if I owned Soho House Club, and I'm president and I have Soho House, and then everybody's like, oh, well, the president owns Soho House, I got to join Soho House, it is what it is.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  They made the president, they made President Jimmy Carter sell his peanut farm, that was what it was like at the set.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  It was a different era.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  His family peanut farm he wasn't allowed to keep.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  It makes no sense, we're in a different era here, but, but think about what would happen if Trump said that, if Trump said, hey, you know what, Truth, I don't know what went up specifically, but let's say Truth Social had a billion dollars in gains, and he says, I'm going to give a half billion in Truth Social shares.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  He could dramatically change the narrative overnight.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Do it.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Dramatically.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Do it, Trump.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  But he would know, because we all know he would not do that.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  I think he will, I'm going to give him the benefit, I think President Trump will do it, and Elon's doing it, so I think this is going to change the narrative on Elon. The whole villain arc, you know, going to the dark side, whatever.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Let me just ask you, we don't have to delve into it, but do you think Elon's timing, maybe because of the doc, there's a documentary about him, much discussed as well?

• 36:01Speaker 00

  I can tell you it's not, because I have talked to him about it many times. I have talked about the Musk Foundation with him a couple of times, I'll just leave it at that.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Great.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  He has, he has wanted to give money away, without getting into any details, he's just like, you see how focused he is, he's just like, if he wants to do it, he would want to be focused on it, and there's been stories about his attempts to figure out how to do it. I think this one kind of appeals to him because of its elegant simpleness, and now, every child is going to be like, yeah, I hope the SpaceX rocket makes it to orbit.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  That's the real power, it only needs to be one share, you know, you don't have to own that much of a company to be rooting for that company. Like, I bought a few, when Meta took a real dip, I bought a few shares at Meta.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Oh, look, you're buying the dip.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Well, you know, discount, I'll buy Meta at a discount, and like, I'm not a Meta fan in terms of.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  You bought it wholesale, you're not buying retail, I got wholesale.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  But now, now when Meta goes up, it's like, oh, good day for me, look at that, I'm not a fan of their products, but like, hey, it made me a cheerleader just because now I have a little piece.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  How's your, how's your, how's your, your tobacco and fentanyl holdings going?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  I would never, I would never own Purdue.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  You'd never own tobacco?

• 37:15Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  RJR Nabisco, how's that go for you?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Meta's about as far as I'll push, like, will I give my company, my money to this evil corporation?

• 37:23Speaker 00

  And how's your shotgun, how's your Remington shotgun position going, Lon?

• 37:27Speaker 01

  No guns, no guns, no Big Pharma.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Let me tell you something about guns, I'm glad I live in a state where I can wear a gun on my hip, I'll be honest. I'm watching what's going on in the world, my lord.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  In Austin, we'll get to our guest in just one moment, but in Austin, there's an ad on the back of a lot of buses, that's like, please don't leave your loaded gun in your car, because somebody could break into your car and steal your loaded, your loaded gun. It's a great point, but I just feel like, that happens so much in Texas, they have to take ads out to be like, listen, please, stop leaving loaded guns in your unpark, in your unlocked car.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  Let me tell you something, you, you had to notice how polite everybody is when you moved here. People are pretty polite, and I think it's because.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, they call it Texas friendly, and everybody is very Texas friend, because you might be strapped, who knows?

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Ever, I mean, I think you need to be strapped, I think the world is chaotic and like.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  I'm not strapped, I'm walking around Austin.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  I'm going to take you, did you, did I shoot with you at the ranch?

• 38:28Speaker 01

  I've shot at the ranch, we shot at the ranch, yes.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  You shot the ranch, I'm going to get more guns, I'm going to buy more. All right, let's get to our guest here.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  All right.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Great start, great start, we warmed up here, we're having fun.

• 38:37Speaker 01

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• 39:20Speaker 01

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• 39:47Speaker 00

  Your startup. I'm a little bit loopy because I'm still on my jet lag from Japan. But introduce our guest and let's get to it. Sure. Joining us now, Danush Ratakrishnan from Clone Robotics. He's the co-founder and CEO, Jason. They are making. Ratakrishnan. Ratakrishnan. Sorry, you say it. Ratakrishnan? Ratakrishnan. Ratakrishnan. There he is. Ratakrishnan. I get, I'm assuming Indian. I get Indian names pretty well. I'm pretty good at it. Is it Indian? Ratakrishnan?

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  In our, in our industry, it pays to learn the, those names.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  So Danush is the CEO and co-founder of Clone Robotics. And the first thing I thought when I saw these, and I see that it is in some of their marketing materials as well. They're building the Westworld robots. We're finally going to have the humanoid Westworld robots. If you're not seeing what's on our screen right now, they are humanoid robots, but they have like bulk, you know? They look like a, like a fit person walking around your house. Looks like Spider-Man. Yeah, a little bit, so Danush. They do have a superhero kind of thing. So what, tell us, what's unique about this robot project? How long you been working on it? How does it compare to Optimus, Figure? And I guess the OG of it all would be Boston Dynamics.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, Clone, we are pioneering lifelike, super intelligent androids. So we aim to create the most human-like and human-level androids in the world. This is a, this is a challenge technologically, especially to attempt to do so with, with motor actuation and like all the catalog components that are effectively used by every other humanoid robot company like Figure or Tesla Optimus or what have you. And so early on, we made a decision to tread this path of inventing artificial muscle technology that could enable achieving human-level capabilities. That's strength, speed and range of motion within this lifelike silhouette of a, of a human.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  And to, and to, and to get all of that technology inside of this really tight volume. So that's, that's, that's what we set out to do. And, you know, within the first 18 months of the company on a half a million dollar budget, we managed to create the most human-level robotic hands in the world. And, and, you know, that, that sort of our claim to fame. And sort of, and from there, we raised a little more capital, scaled that up to the, to the Torso 2, which was our first human-level torso, which really got things moving and, and started to gain clone a lot of traction by reality. And, and yeah, today we've fleshed out the rest of the stack for that torso for, from, you know, whole body sensing, hundreds of sensors for every artificial muscle fiber, for every joint and so on,

• 42:32Speaker 02

  enabling a, a clone that is in fact controllable and, and simulatable. And as a result, deployable in, in enterprise applications.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  So this, the core of this technology is perhaps paradigm shifting. You're doing water-powered artificial muscles, I understand is a description of these. Myo fiber is what you call it. How is that different than say Elon's approach? And he's been big on hands and what he's doing at Optimus, I actually got to see it. I went to the laboratory. And I guess Boston Dynamics, the OG, how, how is this different than say the approaches of those two companies? How is myo fiber different, if at all, than what they're doing?

• 43:15Speaker 02

  It's completely different. We've invented a completely different technology stack here. So basically every company from Boston Dynamics to Tesla and so on are all using the same catalog components and to, to create DC motors that, that either directly actuate the robot's joints or that are used to pull a tendon, which then drives the robot's joints. So at Optimus at the hands, they use, they use a tendon drive, which is effectively a muscle emulator. Because they, a tendon is in effect, you know, like a cable or, you know, or a rope that's, that, that they pull with the motor by, you know, like turning it.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  And so that's emulating the effect of what human muscles achieve, which is, you know, at a high level, you know, you have a, you have a finger flexor tendon that becomes a muscle in your hand. And then you have a finger extensor tendon that'll become the muscle in your forearm. And, and then in your, in your body, the muscles contract and extend and effectively puppeteer like two different tendons for what's called like antagonistic, what is antagonistic actuation? And now the way they do it at Tesla is, you know, they have a motor in the forearm that's pulling that tendon, that flexor tendon and a second motor that pulls the extensor tendon. This is also how the 1X hand is driven as well.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  But at Clone, we invented a hydraulic musculotendon unit. It can to, it's literally just a muscle tendon. So you pressurize our muscle fiber with, with fluid, whether that's gas or liquid, in our case, liquid. And then that creates a muscle contraction. So the muscle literally just pulls the result of pressurization, the tendon. And, and then you have a flexor MTU and an extensor MTU and those.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  What material is that? It, it's not organic. Obviously you're not creating muscle as we would know it in our human bodies. It's not 3D printed muscle. It's not a pulley. So what is it in terms of the material science?

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So obviously not going to reveal materials on here, but.

• 45:20Speaker 00

  You're not? Okay.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  But it's also, and it's also not just, it's not just a monofilament material that's, you know, you run an electric current through it and, you know, it, it, it actuates like a human skeletal muscle would, you know, when, when your neurons fire. Instead, it's, it's pressurized with fluid. So you can imagine there's a, there is a hollow tube in there. And when pressurized, the, the pressurization causes this mechanical muscle contraction.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  If we're imagining the existing versions of robotics, whether it's Optimus or Figure, they have a pulley. We've seen the pulley. We can have them go find a video of the pulley system. Moves up and over, right? Yeah. So you have a bunch of little pulleys, electrons go in and say tighten and, and tighten this one, loosen this one. And that creates the movement of the fingers, the pinching, the pointing, the gripping, picking something up. So it's a pulley-based system that's pulling a wire. The wire is attached to the joints on the hand. And like you said, you know, one on the forward side might be pulling inward towards your palm. And then when you open, it's pulling the opposite direction.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  And we're modeling a hand with some kind of wire, I assume, with a pulley. That's the state of the art today. What you're doing is there's tubes of some type. We don't get into the materials here. Okay, fair enough. But plastic, micro nano tubes, whatever it is, there's.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  I can tell you at a high level, the muscle construction. Okay. So it's, it's effectively, you have an elastomeric tube surrounded by like a braided sleeve. Basically a rubber tube surrounded by a shoelace at a high level.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  Perfect. Thank you for explaining it in terms, Lon, and I, you got a shoelace wrapped rubber band. Okay, good. I got it.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  So if you have a rubber tube, you know, and you pressurize it, it's going to balloon in every direction like a balloon, right? But once you have this inextensible sort of braided sleeve, like a textile, you know, sort of cross links, the angle of the textiles like regulates that expansion of the balloons that it doesn't, is not able to expand radially very much. And it, it causes a linear contraction as a result.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  When these things go AWOL in Crazy Lawn, a katana, a, a standard Samurai sword, you cut off the hand, it's going to slice right off. Is the liquid inside, is it like milk colored? So it'll be like Blade Runner or Alien when I kill the robot and it's going to spray.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Oh, wide die wouldn't, wouldn't hurt anything, I think.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  I think that takes it to that next Ridley Scott level. Distinguish it. So building this robotics company with this new paradigm, where did you come up with the system? Were you part of the MIT Robotics Diaspora? Where did you learn all this? And how does one start a robotic company here in 2026? And then we'll get to the brains because that's the next big piece here. So you have a paradigm shift in how it's being made. Where did you learn all this? How'd you come up with it?

• 48:14Speaker 02

  I mean, I have a background from, from plasma physics. I've been building things since I was a kid. When I was 13, I, I built a one megawatt plasma thruster, designed and built it on my own. When in undergrad, I was doing nuclear fusion theory research. But also in high school, I got exposure to various classes of artificial muscles. I knew what a McKibben was, but, but back then I didn't think that because it necessitated a hydraulic system, it would be worthwhile pursuing. Moreover, back then there was no, you know, real paradigm of deep learning like what we have today that would enable the control of such a, such a complex robotic morphology. I, I met my co-founder, who's a Polish national on the internet, and he'd been experimenting with these McKibben muscles

• 48:55Speaker 02

  and, and hydraulic systems to try to, to try to make some progress here. And it was sort of early days, but we connected on the internet. This is back in like 2020 and, and hit it off. And I decided to, to move to Poland the following year to start this company there.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  So you met online. Were you on, you just emailed each other cold or you're on some subreddit?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Facebook, yeah. We were Facebook friends for like a year.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Just, and you found somebody who had a passion for the same thing you did? And then all of a sudden a company starts, you go from wherever you are, where were you that you went to?

• 49:28Speaker 02

  I was, I was looking, my first company was a software company. I raised some capital for that. But back then, I guess I was, I was, I was trying to like, just, I guess, stumble upon some kind of software idea that would hit hyper growth and make me like a hundred million dollars or something to pour into making my own androids, which is like a, like a lifelong dream of mine.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  But, but sort of realized because this guy in Poland was working. So sort of like capital efficiently on his own, I figured I could raise enough capital to make some meaningful, meaningful progress in this direction. And I realized that there was enough fertile ground, basically with the McKibben muscle technology to, to, to get it off the ground and to start making some progress anyway. And, and I, and I figured a lot of the problems that would, that would, that would follow subsequently when it comes to miniaturizing the valves, compactifying the hydraulic power unit and so on and so forth, that, that we'd be able to do so as we, as we raise subsequent rounds of funding.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Are these hands going to be stronger than a, than a human hand or because you're taking? This approach, it's similar.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Well, so I mean, again, the goal is human level capabilities in this like, you know, lifelike silhouette. So this is a, this is a very tough bar to hit. It's, it's, it's, I mean, I, I'd argue like Elon's still kind of struggling to do that with, um, with motor actuation today. I'd argue his hands are almost definitely going to be subhuman level in, in strength. Because the, the problem is you have this tight, if you, if you care about lifelikeness, that is. So at Boston Dynamics, they don't care about lifelikeness. They're happy for their hand to be, you know, like, probably the size of like a gorilla hand and, and digits that are, you know, like, like double or triple the size of, of human digits. And, um, and, and if that's the case, then of course, you know, you can pack motors with sufficient torque, speed and a low enough power draw within, you know, like whatever volume that, that you want, because you don't really care.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  But, but lifelikeness matters, um, uh, for I think a great product experience for, to deliver on the real problems of robotics, which if you ask me is delivering, you know, Ridley Scott, you know, synthetic human straight up, you know, straight out of a science fiction.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  So it's important that they be human-like in terms of their size, because they're going to, for, for, if I'm reading correctly, or I'm inferring correctly, two reasons. One, they have to work in the real world, therefore being human size. It benefits the screwdriver, the hammer, you know, the, the box cutter. That's all designed for a human hand. If you have a giant gorilla hand, now that the hammer's too small. Yeah?

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or, or actually, if you, if you have like a gorilla hand, you know, then you try to do a full grip. And if the, the handle of the hammer is like too slender, you know, it just kind of like moves around within the grip. And you're like, not even able to grasp it tight enough to, to use it for meaningful work.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  So it's very practical to be in the same human. And if it is human profile and size, let's just say, human size hand, it can't be stronger? Wouldn't the technology be there to make it?

• 52:09Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's, no, I mean, like, I mean, even look at like all technology, I mean, from the iPhone era to anything, you know, that precedes it, you know? If you want to get more capabilities in a tighter volume, this is always, you know, like a challenge.

• 52:20Speaker 00

  Then the second reason is so people adopt them and are not intimidated by them. So the reason to not have a 12 foot one that is 50% larger is maybe people are intimidated by it and don't accept it.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  To me, you know, we're, so first of all, you know, the vision at clone is we are moving toward, um, you know, a true clones, which, which what I call the, the clones will make, you know, down the road that are truly indistinguishable from humans. And, uh, and, and if that's the North Star, um, I don't really know how to capture like every degree of freedom from the shrugging of the shoulders to every doff of the hand, with human level of strength in all of those joints. You know, with, uh, with, you know, the human face has like 40 facial muscles for like to capture every micro expression. I don't know how to do that, um, with motor actuation while still having enough room for, you know, a reasonable amount of battery life, for, you know, the GPUs or two GPUs or whatever else it is that you need. That, I, I actually don't know how to do that with motor action.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Maybe, you know, Elon with, you know, the billions of dollars of investment he's pouring in, he'll figure a way to do it. He'll figure out a way to do that. But, but, but for, for a clone, um, you know, we, we have, we, we made a bet very early on that with muscle technology, with, um, with, with, you know, with our hydraulic muscle technology, that we'd be able to be well within the human silhouette, even with some clearance, um, between the skin and the actuators for some, you know, uh, great artistry for, uh, around soft materials to really attain lifelikeness, um, at, at a level that nobody else can. But another one of the reasons for it is even like utility, you know, like, so one of the, the probably the most challenging thing, if I had to guess there, that they're facing a Tesla and everywhere else, you know, you, like 1X is, is probably the wrist, right?

• 53:58Speaker 02

  So 1X, you know, they decided like, and, and again, like, this is why, you know, at chess, you start with the end game, right? So the end game kind of determine, the destination determines the avenue. So like 1X, you know, like, uh, they, they want to get as human-like as they can. But, you know, at some point they said, hey, the wrist is like a nightmare. Like, you know, there's just, you have to like route like a bazillion tendons through here, you know, the amount of like force, like, you know, per volume there is crazy. And, uh, and you know, like a human wrist is so narrow, um, that, you know, maybe it's okay, we can just kind of make the sleeve suit. And then, you know, your, your Bowden cables that are running tendons from the, from the palm to the forearm. Like it's a little bit over the human wrist size. That's okay. The sleeve covers it up, you know, and it doesn't matter, right? So like at some point, you know, you might want to make a compromise like that.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  At clone, we're just very serious about this, like endeavor of getting the most human-like and human level android in the world. And this is like a huge capabilities bar to hit. And, um, and next generation hydraulic muscle technology just enables this in a way that motor actually makes it like.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  It's a huge, bold sort of project, but you are, you're aiming to have these like in homes. Like the idea is soon I will be able to have like a lifelike robo butler, like making, making my drinks around. Can you give me a sense of like, one, what, how far away is that? Like, how close are you to being able to deliver this? And then two, what, what are you thinking like the price point is going to be? Is this like your, your richest friend is going to have a, a robo butler? Or like, at some point we can get these out to like middle-class families are going to have a robo butler?

• 55:23Speaker 02

  So I expect we'll deploy, uh, our first human level torsos, uh, next year in enterprise applications first. Um, in, in part just because, uh, you know, enterprises can even make, make, make a, you know, we're so far, we've developed the upper body. And it'll probably take us another like, you know, uh, six to 12 months to get to the, um, to the complete android, probably closer to six months. But the, uh, but, but the torso is like perfectly deployable in like assembly lines, like stationary applications, manufacturing settings and so on. And can absolutely, you know, take us to, to, to, you know, billions or tens of billions in revenue. And so, so we'll go ahead and start there, but I, I see the robo butlers at least, um, probably like, you know, two, three years out is, is, is, is fair game to deploy like complete androids.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Um, in, in large part, just because, um, you know, you can see on the intelligence side of things that, um.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Well, let's go to that. The brain is then the next big piece.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And. One more note on Lon's question though, before, before the brain is this, he mentioned, he mentioned cost and like the real cherry on top of the clone design of like pursuing artificial muscle technology and attempting to, you know, pioneer this in a, in a, in a motor actuated humanoid world that, uh, seems to be the default timeline. Uh, if, if sort of clone didn't exist, is that it is, uh, it can be done at a tenth of the cost to produce of these motor actually humanoids. So it's like enabling human level capabilities, doing so within this lifelike form factor with, that's like soft body and so on. And it's extremely cheap by comparison to a completely different supply chain that doesn't have a single gear in the system.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  Those gears are expensive and they're sourcing from the same places. It's a bit of a bottleneck. Elon, of course, likes to build the full stack, so I would assume, and he's been pretty clear about this. He will make his own gears, I'm sure. Let's talk brain for a second. We have large language models and there are people building world models. There are specific companies building world models. There are people who are open sourcing them or building data sources where investors in Micro One, which builds data sets. And I believe they're doing this as well, where they hire people to wear headsets and cut up vegetables and make a French omelet and a, you know, uh, country omelet and whatever it happens to be and do every recipe on the planet and then teach it.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  So do you need to actually even work on the brain? Or do you get that free or you get 90% of it free because of the massive progress, progress being made with frontier models and dedicated data sets?

• 57:51Speaker 02

  So that, that is the bet I've taken to date is that we're going to get like a huge amount of this for free. And that it was worthwhile to spend the last five years investing in the, uh, you know, solving these, these very hard technology R and D problems that basically nobody else in the world is solving, um, patentable, defensible IP. That enables like a, a class of androids that, that functionally could work far better than, than what actually humanizer today, enable a way better product experience. And that ultimately that data is going to become this liquid trade for those who, you know, don't have the capital to train their own models, who don't have the, you know, the knowledge to, to build like proprietary hardware. And that, uh, and that on the intelligence end of things, that the models would end up having like six to 12 month, like half life in effect.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  And, and with, with, um, with programs like, like geared Nvidia, um, that, that aims to open source. Their models with the, with the, the team of like sort of, you know, world-class research scientists, um, you know, on par with, with, with these sort of like, you know, so-called frontier, you know, Neo Labs, like those that like Pyro Genalist are skilled. That, that, that clone would like greatly benefit from just focusing on the hardware for the first few years. Until, you know, data is like really already at scale, at which point, you know, with capital, um, you know, you can convert capital to data, you can convert capital to compute. And always post-training, uh, the, you know, the latest, uh, check, uh, open, open weight checkpoint. With reinforcement learning to, on, on our, on robot data, whatever augmentations we get from,

• 59:22Speaker 02

  from motion capture, from human videos, uh, the physics simulation and so forth. And, and build something that's, that's still like very frontier.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  And, and here's a video from a year ago. What are we seeing here? A year ago on your YouTube channel?

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this is, this is the proto clone. It's, uh, I mean, this is effectively, to be honest, this is the torso two. We just kind of threw some legs on there just for, uh, for, for flair. I mean, they are actuated legs, uh, with, with these muscle fibers, but they weren't drawn to, to spec to, to, to make this thing. So we really, the thing we really have focused on is the torso up to date. And we've recently, earlier this year, gotten the hydraulic actuation technology required to drive the legs to, to be able to drive a hydraulic android like this.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  We just, we do have to like, you know, do a little work to put those actuators into the.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Do people believe you? Do, does the venture community out there believe you're going to make this happen? Or do they look at this and go, whoa, this is a little too science fiction, too IP-based new tech? You said you got here with 500K in investment. Have you raised more since then? And what's it like when you talk to venture capitalists here?

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've raised 24 million to date over the last five years at this point. That for, for, for an endeavor like this, that's still like quite, quite a low budget.

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  It's efficient, yeah.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  So we've managed to, you know, invent muscle, like an extension hydraulic actuation technology for the legs, the Mcgivern muscle technology miniaturized the, these hydraulic valves. I'd argue our, our valve operation is probably, you know, a billion dollar valve operation on its own, given that we spoke to basically every valve manufacturer out there to attempt to, you know, buy, buy things off the shelf if they could hit our specs, but you know, they couldn't. So, you know, we've done like a pretty, pretty insane work here on this budget. But I think like, you know, without a doubt for the first few years, at least, you know, venture capitalists probably thought I was, I was crazy and full of it. And, and you know, that's okay.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Is your goal to make the robot yourself, or maybe be an arms dealer to people who want to build robots? How do you look at that? Cause you know, if you're working on this IP, there are companies, Toyota, I think is getting into robotics, obviously Tesla has Optimus. So it seems like there are people who are at scale manufacturers. Does their manufacturing capability align with what you're building? Or do you need to make a new stack?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  That's not even a thought that crosses my mind. Like we're, we're in this for the long haul. So we, I'm going to be working on this for a few decades. I'm not about to sell myself short like in the first years.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  You told us in the, in the pre-interview, the goal down the road is 100% clone, like lifelike, like I can't tell the robot from the human, like the Blade Runner future. Do you foresee us having like moral or ethical dilemmas at that point where we have these like, my butler is indistinguishable visually from a real human?

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't think so. I mean, I mean, like it, like I'm, they're all, people are always going to have ethical dilemmas over like all this stuff. You know, like, I mean, it's not, I mean, like, it's just a, for me, it's, you know, like it's the final, it's the final frontier of human computer interaction is the way I think about it. You know, like, you know, today you can talk to your computer. This is like mind blowing already, you know? And you know, it looks like a human, like, you know, your like two year old could probably, you know, you get access to like all of the powers of, of modern computing, like, you know, in an instant, because it's just like, you know, dealing with another human. And, you know, we're that since birth. So like, for me, this is just actually the most natural, personal computing platform one could create. And

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  this is just, it's, it seems like, to me, anyway, it just seems like out of reach to try to do it any other way. So, so we've gone.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  When do you think you'll ship this? That is always the question. You got these incredible demos. You're all clearly making progress. You're on your way with $24 million in venture capital. Going to take some more, obviously, as you go, but let's assume you're able to fund this. When might we see this in the field doing something in the world that is constructive and valuable to customers?

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Probably 2027 will, will, it'd be as early as, you know, Q1 2027, we'll deploy our first Silas with a work though, capable of bi-manual manipulation, a human level bi-manual manipulation. I'd even argue, so, you know, using a power drill and screw or a hammer and nail and, you know, the real meaty stuff that, that can add a lot of value to at least enterprise. But we really did.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  I think these things are going to change the world. It feels to me like we're three or four years away from them on kind of hitting actual value in the world. And when they do, man, I don't know what the business model is going to be here. Do you think you sell them for 50 grand? Or do you rent them for five bucks an hour and go to people like Amazon and say, hey, listen, you're paying somebody $22 to work in this warehouse. They get injured at this rate. They have benefits at this rate. You know, they, they turnover at this rate. So your net, you know, end of the day is 30 bucks an hour. How about we give you one for 10 bucks an hour and you don't have to maintain it. We maintain it for you. What is the business model going to be here? And what do you think the cost

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  structure will be if we were to put on the crystal ball and start thinking about that?

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  I think we'll sell them and, and, you know, they'll, they'll pay themselves off for customers.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  God, 50 grand, you think they go for? A hundred grand? What do you think these things will go for? The price of a Toyota Prius or the price of a Mercedes Benz? Where do you put these?

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  I think, you know, I'd like to see, I like to see a world of clones, you know? So I will definitely make a model that's, you know, affordable to everybody. And, and I really just don't want to live in a world of like a billion tin can kind of robots. Like, so this would like bother me deeply.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  25,000 is, is a good bogey? Something like that?

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  I mean, like, you know, we'll, we'll be able to do that. Like, again, the, the huge benefit of, of our, of our technology that probably the biggest edge, at least the ones that the, the venture capitalists will care about is that it's, that it's a, it's a tiny fraction of the cost to produce air to the motor actuated guys even before scale economies. So those kinds of prices are completely fair at scale especially. But, but, but I think at the same time, you know, like this is, we can make something really beautiful here. I think I like to, you know, Steve Jobs talked about making insanely great products. And for me, I'm like trying to create like an otherworldly product. So I'll, without a doubt, want like some kind of like, you know, Louis Vuitton like-esque line of

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  clones that also go for like, you know, a million bucks a pop. But, but, but, but for sure, we're like, we'll make an affordable unit so that everybody has one, you know, in their home, you know, serving them on a day-to-day basis.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  All right. Well, thanks for coming on the program and we will be watching. Where can people find out more?

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can follow us on X, follow us on YouTube. It's, yeah, Clone Robotics on X, Clone Robotics on YouTube.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  That's where we found you on X.com, the platform for founders and entrepreneurs to share their progress. It's amazing how X is back and all the people who quit X to go to threads or blue skies falling, they're all back. And they're like, well, this is where the conversation's happening.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Uh, Danush, thanks so much for being here. We're going to drop you off now. Great to talk to you. Really enjoyed it.

• 1:06:34Speaker 00

  Great talking to you, Danush. Appreciate you.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  And Jason, I got a question for you. So clone robotics.com, that's where they're sending people. As the domain name expert, would you just go for clone? Do you like clone robotics? Or do you like just clone.com? Would it be worth it for them to pony up the cash and just get clone?

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  I mean, listen, you start with clone robotics, right? And then you would want to try to have somebody on your behalf who doesn't have a Google-able $24 million claim of, you know, on a podcast of how much money they made, because now clone.com is going to be 20% of that number, 5 million.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  So you, you use an intermediary and there are great intermediaries out there who will do this for you and obscure who you are. Do you know which one I like to use?

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  I would, I would say.

• 1:07:27Speaker 00

  Take a guess.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  My guess for your favorite broker would be GoDaddy, our friends at GoDaddy.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  Yes. So if you were to go to GoDaddy, which I've been using for 20 years and I do all mine there, type in clone.com. Well, here, I'll do it myself. You type in clone. Oh yeah, you got it up on the screen. Type in clone.com and you'll see what happens here. So here you go. Now, you see that? Look on the left. It's going to give you like options like clone.cool. Okay. But go to the left. If you don't want the $13 option, what you see there is clone.com broker service, 99 dot 99. You just buy that for a hundred bucks and you let them go to work.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  And they will have a broker start negotiating on your behalf for this clone.com, which by the way, if you go to it, is a domain that somebody's squatting on. So somebody's squatting on this can't be you. And it's obviously a premium. So you're going to need to, you know, spend a quarter million dollars to a million dollars minimum on clone.com. Five letters in the dictionary. That could be low millions of dollars. Sometimes you'll even see a domain like that go for 10 million. So you might not want to buy it now. Like Tesla was teslamotors.com for a long time. Eventually they got tesla.com. And those kind of. Things happen all the time. It just takes a little bit of time to get them.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  And you can then, you know, look for all the clones. So clone.tech, and this is one of the great things about GoDaddy. They have really amazing ways to help you find a good domain. So you can go find and they'll help you brainstorm it, etc.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I mean, that would build up a lot of credibility. Clone Robotics is great, but like, imagine if you're emailing people from at clone.com. That that this is incredible. This is a serious business. So if you want to find out more about all of GoDaddy's amazing suite of services that are gonna help you find the perfect domain name, just go to godaddy.com, G-O-D-A-D-D-Y.com. Thanks to GoDaddy.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Make sure you use all their security as well. Domains are like valuable properties. You don't want to get hacked, etc. You want to use somebody like GoDaddy who has many layers of security on your domain. And that's critically important as well. And you can, you can lock it down. I have annotated.com, begin.com. I put all of them on GoDaddy. And I got them locked down eight ways to Sunday.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  I've had lonharris.com on there for 20 years now.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  Thank you, GoDaddy, my favorite registrar.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Should we do one more news story?

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Now you know how to negotiate for but 100. Why wouldn't you do it for 100 bucks? You take a swing. At least you get some data on it.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Take a swing, exactly. You'll learn, you'll learn how much, what, how aspirational your, your dreams of ultimate domain.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  The person is responsive. Sometimes people are not responsive, you know? So at least you'll learn if it's a possibility.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Squatting, though, so they would definitely get back to you. They, they're looking to sell.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Let's hope, let's hope. You know, sometimes people, sadly, sometimes people pass away. And they have a domain name, you gotta find the next of kin.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, is that true?

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  Gotta find the next of kin.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  That's, it's like a whole thing now.

• 1:10:41Speaker 00

  I mean, well, let's say if I got hit by a car, luckily, I have a succession planning at our firm. And people have the keys to stuff. But some people, if you just bought it and you forgot you bought it, and then you get hit by a car, you, you die in your sleep, whatever terrible thing happens to you. Now you gotta try to find next of kin. Then they've got to go through a process. So the, there, this is an issue that has started to emerge. That's why you need a great partner.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  This is the perfect Hallmark romantic comedy premise, that a guy has to find the heiress to, who now controls the ultimate domain name. And then he meets her, he's trying to sort of play her to get the domain name for cheap, but then they fall in love.

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  He's trying to, I got it, I got it. We got the screenplay. Love.com.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, my God.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  Guy wants to make, it writes itself. And it turns out somebody does own love.com.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  I could knock, I could knock that out in a weekend. Could knock that out.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure. TrueLove.com. TrueLove.com is the name of the movie.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  That's incredible.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  And look at TrueLove.com, somebody's just squatting on it. So that's the name of the film, TrueLove.com.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  TrueLove.com, oh.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  The guy finds it, the guy died in his sleep, guy died tragically.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  And it's his, like, it's his granddaughter, she doesn't even know about domains.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  Forty years ago, it was 1996 when he registered.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  It's literally 30 years later.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  So good.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  Squatting on the domain, TrueLove.com.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  If you work on Hallmark movies and you're watching this now, don't steal that. I want to write.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  Don't steal this idea. We know, we'll take this out of the final edit. This will only be for the live on, take this out of the final edit. It's such a good idea. It's too good. All right, what else is in the news? Let's do one more news story, get the hell out of here.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  I do want to talk, I do want to talk about this. I thought this was really fun, great visuals. World model startup Odyssey posted a video on Saturday of a simulated fruit fly brain flying through worlds generated by their new model Odyssey 3. So here's their quote, "The little guy is now flying around totally imagined simulated worlds all by itself." This post has more than 5 million views. And a lot of people have the same thought that I had, which is, if you are a fly, simulation theory is now real. Like, if you are a fly, there's no way to know if you're a real fly or if you're a fly brain in a computer flying around a simulated world.

• 1:12:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  How much further does it have to go, Jason, before we humans are in the same existential dilemma?

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  Just to be clear, there is something called simulation theory.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Simulation theory is world models, VR, video games are gonna get so good, so refined that if you were in one, you wouldn't know it.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:13:15Speaker 00

  Therefore, if the fidelity becomes so great that you lose yourself in it, which people have started to do, you know, since video games got really good. So you're playing Grand Theft Auto and you're wondering, does the non-player character in Grand Theft Auto know that they are in a video game or not? And I think there was a Ryan Reynolds movie.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Free Guy. It's called Free Guy.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  Free Guy?

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  Like as a free player?

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  You got a free guy in a video game, but he's, but also he, it's a play on words cuz he's not free cuz he's trapped in this video game world.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  So it's like Truman Show, right? I did see this film. It was, I think, terrible.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  What you said, he's like an NPC in a Grand Theft Auto world. He works at a bank and it's constantly getting robbed because people are playing the game that he's in. And he becomes sentient somehow.

• 1:14:01Speaker 00

  So this is interesting for two reasons. One, the world that has been built is incredibly high fidelity. I'm assuming it's modeled after the real world in some way, right? So if that's the case, now we have the real world.

• 1:14:18Speaker 00

  And the fruit fly is got a pea brain, like a fly's brain. Right? It's the lowest form of intelligence. So the fruit fly is living in this and doesn't know.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a simulated, it's not a real fruit fly. It's not like they have a fruit fly hooked up to wires. It's, they made a computer program that simulates a fruit fly's brain, and now they've dropped it into this world and it's flying around this world. And the idea is like, could we all, i- is the matrix possibly true? Like, could you right now be a human simulated brain inside a computer program? And we just think we're on a podcast and talking and we're in the physical world.

• 1:14:54Speaker 00

  But we're NPCs or we're the main character. Who the hell knows? Maybe something happens in this simulation where we are.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  It's very uncomfortable to think about.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  Well, and then you have the multiverse concept where you have, you know, a million simulations. And there, where there's a million Lons and a million Jasons, all with different careers. But all somehow threaded in some similar fashion.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Trails off into a different simulation, yeah.

• 1:15:20Speaker 00

  But there's like a female Captain America, there's a white Captain America, there's a black Captain America, there's an Italian Captain America with an Italian accent. The super serum started in Italy cuz Italy beat the Nazis and they became the super serum. Yes, there's like a million threads that, yeah, not bad, interesting. The Italians, well, could work too. Long shot, but it could work. We could workshop. So I think it's very interesting. And I'm sure the people at Claude have the Pope's blessing to create simulated humans. And then torture them and then have them live as Christ and be crucified inside their world model. And then we would want the Pope to then approve this blasphemy.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  I think that's what everybody's concerned about.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  Being crucified in their matrix.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  I think that's what everybody's concerned about with this anthropic public benefit corporation. Like, are they gonna start like the AI church and that's their public benefit? Like, they could decide whatever the public benefit is.

• 1:16:16Speaker 00

  Literally be like Scientology. They could be like L. Ron Hubbard and be like, hey, you know, it'd be great to not pay taxes. Let me create my science fiction and then dovetail that with a church.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  I, I think that, that's a non-zero chance that that's their plan.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  Right. That, that, that New York Times article, it really unsettled, it really unsettled me. I didn't, I don't like that idea.

• 1:16:35Speaker 00

  Why did it unsettle you?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Because I don't, I don't like the idea that they're, they're, they're, they're inventing this technology with their own religious overtones put into it. I feel like this is technology, this is science, this is research. You should be approaching it in a very, like, logical, evidence-based way. That's how we do research and computers and science. And so to bring in this, like, soul deity religion church.

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  It's blasphemy, call it what it is. It's blasphemy, it's heresy.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  It just makes me very uncomfortable. It feels like a weird mixing of those two worlds that don't belong together.

• 1:17:11Speaker 00

  It certainly feels like heresy blasphemy to me.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  If you believe in a soul, then you believe giving a soul to a robot would be wrong, right? I don't see how both of those things could exist.

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  You would then start to believe you were God. And now we're in Wayland territory.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  This is exactly where it gets uncomfortable for me.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  That, it's very uncomfortable for me as a Christian. You know, don't talk about my faith too much here. I'm not going to church every Sunday, but I do believe in the Bushido. And I believe in Jesus Christ as a, you know, a minimum, as a great dude who lived thousands of years ago and potentially the Son of God, open to all possibilities. But I just like the teachings of Jesus and the Bushido, which overlap in many areas.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  Protecting the poor and just, the Bushido believe in beheading bad people.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  They're a little bigger on violence. Violence is more okay.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Forgiving them, turning the other cheek. That's where they diverge. It's a slight divergence. One turned the other cheek, the other one is bad. And I kind of like to have both options. That's why I kind of rolled my own religion and spirituality between the Bushido and Christ. I, I feel like, and I got admonished by, by a friend who was on another podcast and she was just very upset. Visibly upset on this other podcast, I'm not gonna say the podcast or the person, but they were like kind of upset at the All In guys and me and that we were kind of friendly or we had an acquaintanceship, which is true, we're kind of friendly. And she was very upset. And then I just DM'd her, I'm like, well, what's the story? What are you, and she's like,

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  you haven't had people on All In, you have accumulated all this power. I'm like, okay, listen, it's the number one podcast the last two weeks in a row, big deal. And, you know, the world, it's, it is what it is, folks.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Doing very well.

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  It's doing very well after five years. And she's like, you have a responsibility to have on the doomers. And the people who have AI safety concern. And I'm, I'm just like, it's software. I'm sorry. You're not going to convince me that 10% that all of humanity, 10% chance humanity is going to die from this. I don't buy it. And I disagree with Elon. And then people are starting to be like, how could you disagree with Elon? And I'm like, how could I, it's allowed? Just because we're friends for, you know, whatever number of decades, like, doesn't mean we agree on everything. He might agree that this is a possibility. I think it's like, the smallest possibility possible that Skynet happens. I think it's miniscule. And when I say miniscule, I think like,

• 1:19:41Speaker 00

  I don't know, one in a billion that we're not going to be able to control this technology. Even if it becomes recursive, I think we're still going to control it. Sorry. That's my belief. It's software.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, I mean, I, I feel like,

• 1:19:54Speaker 00

  And my favorite film's Blade Runner.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  I would feel more sympathetic to this argument because I do think you guys have a responsibility to hear people out and explore things from multiple angles. That's part of being such a popular show. I know, but I was saying, the, the P Dune people, they have so many platforms. They, they're not lacking for a way to get their message out.

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  They're not being silenced.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  They're not, right. They're on every TV channel. They're in every newspaper. That's dominating the conversation. If anything, I would feel like all in has a responsibility to cut the other way. And like, let's hear from the other side that's not getting this kind of airtime. And also, you guys tried to have Joseph Coxon on, right? The, the guy,

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  We did. And he was like, I gotta be on Megyn Kelly. And we're like, okay, I think we understand. You're a coward. You don't want to face Sacks, myself, Chamath and Freeberg, which let's call it what it is. There's nobody on that podcast who's not a intellectual heavyweight ability to debate this topic with you. I think the person knew they would get owned.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Jacob Coxon.

• 1:20:53Speaker 00

  By all four of us. I think that this person loses, this person loses a debate to all four principles on that podcast every time.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 00

  There's not, the weakest among us, he's gonna, he's gonna lose.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  I think I'm pretty good at debating, but that show is intimidating. If all four of those guys were coming at you, it would be intimidating.

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  Well, and all four of them agree on this one issue.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  And there's very few times that, I mean, we all, we, we all agree that socialism is garbage. Like, fully realized, like, you know, so I think we win that argument as well. There is probably a small set of arguments that,

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would be tough to have all, all four bestie energy coming at you at once, I think. I, I would,

• 1:21:33Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm the one guy who has experienced all three coming at him on a pretty regular basis. But I'm like, January 6th was disgraceful. And it's like, they used to agree with me and now they don't. Okay, fair enough.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  It's three on one on occasion on that show.

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  On occasion. And I find it hilarious. Like, I love when it's three on one. I'm like, guys, you're wrong. You're wrong about open stores, wrong about January 6th, wrong about the Iran war. I mean, how many times does Jacob have to be right?

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  There was, it was like, week three, and they were like, it's nothing. This is just a blip.

• 1:22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm like, it feels like a forever war to me.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Recent one, yeah. Famous one.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  I'm like, I think this feels like a forever war. Middle East, Iran, the one, like, third rail, they were like, don't touch this. This is the hornet's nest. You do not want to, I mean, is there a bigger hornet's nest on the planet?

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  Russia, China, North Korea?

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Israel was sort of trying to talk every recent president into doing this. And they all were like, no, no, I don't, I'm not touching that one.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, good luck. Yeah. All right, everybody. Another amazing episode of this week in startups. Anything else we have to get to?

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  I think that's, I think that's good. Well, there's a few more stories we got on here, but I think we've covered most of it.

• 1:22:46Speaker 00

  All right. What are the last three stories?

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Uh, let's see. We could talk about, um, the Democrats think cracking down on AI will give them an edge. We could talk about Anthropic's junior technical hires falling off. We could talk about the new Anthropic model, the information tease. Or we could talk about podcaster Chris Williamson is accusing Eleven Labs of stealing his voice.

• 1:23:05Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a good one. Let me hear that one.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Uh, so on Friday, Chris Williamson, he's the host of the Modern Wisdom Podcast, posted a video saying that the Eleven Labs voice Archer is actually a copy of his own voice. He posted a YouTube video titled, "The Eleven Labs Situation Is Crazy." That has almost 800K views in just about 48 hours. Eleven Labs says that the Archer voice was supplied by a different voice actor. It's not him. Uh, the Archer voice has, however, been pulled from the platform. So the company's not admitting that they did anything wrong, but they have removed Archer from their lineup of, of voices. Uh, so what do you think? First of all, you watched the video. Do you think this is Chris Williamson's

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  voice? And what can Eleven Labs do to like reassure people they're not stealing their voices?

• 1:23:54Speaker 00

  It is 100% based on his voice.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  Uh, Eleven Labs is guilty here. They took the voice down. Uh, when you hear it, he's got a real Cockney English accent that's very unique.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Voice, yes.

• 1:24:09Speaker 00

  And he goes through the words that he says. It's kind of like me saying draw or monetize, whatever, my Brooklyn accent. It's like, you have some fingerprints. I know this because somebody did this to me. Remember I shared with you the Instagram dogs? I can't find them now. If you, can you look for those in your, wherever I sent them for? I cannot find the Instagram dogs.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  I'll ask Grokbot if he can find.

• 1:24:30Speaker 00

  Maybe it's Grokbot can find. There were these Instagram dogs, and one of them was distinctly done in my voice. My voice is notoriously hard to clone because it has a little bit of Brooklyn. And then I tried to professionalize my speech. And then it's like Brooklyn plus 20 years in California and me trying to speak less like a kid from Brooklyn. And then it comes out when I get, you know, into a debate. Anyway, long story short, I knew I was, when I sent the dog clone to you, you were like, 100% they cloned your voice.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  Trained on your voice.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Someone you know, you, you pick it up very quickly. Yes.

• 1:25:05Speaker 00

  I heard the, I heard this one, and they were using it for like, an audio book. The example he gave, somebody was doing like, an explainer history video. It was so clear that it was him and trading on his name.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Let's give it a listen. Like, let's, Jacob, play that side by side.

• 1:25:19Speaker 00

  This is unbelievable. Play the side by side.

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  This is a problem I've been grappling with for a while. So let's go back to the start. A few months ago, a friend of mine sent me a link to a YouTube video. I want you to listen to this clip and tell me if anything sounds familiar. It's been over 12 years since the disappearance of Flight MH370. Three massive searches, more than $200 million spent. And on March 8th, 2026, Ocean Infinity officially called off their last

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. So here's the thing. He's got such a legal case, it is unbelievable because people in the comments of that video, and people were sending him information that, hey, I saw you did this. Is this you? And so when you cause confusion in the market, that's like one of the ways to protect yourself. Um, all right, all right, all right. Matthew McConaughey has trademarked his image likeness and his voice. So people are now trademarking their voice and their distinct way of speaking, which I think we're all going to have to do if you're a public figure now, is start trademarking, you know, me saying wet your beak, or, you know, monetize, or whatever I, you know, catchphrase is

• 1:26:35Speaker 00

  kill yourself. I used to have a catchphrase. I don't use it anymore. Uh, it hurt people's feelings. But anyway, my various catchphrases over time, I'm manifesting, whatever. Um, and it's pretty obvious Eleven Labs got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They did send him an explanation where they were like, no, we hired a voice actor. I call BS. Find me the voice actor they hired. And maybe they did hire the voice actor, and they said, let's find somebody similar to.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:03Speaker 00

  And it's like, those perfumes that have a similar profile, which I still find icky. And I think the Eleven Labs CEO should do the right thing. They should compensate Chris Williams. They should give him $100,000 in shares, have him sign off on it. And then they should make him an offer for his actual real voice. And they should not do this.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  They did it with Burt Reynolds or Mike, Michael Caine. You know, they have paid to license.

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  They do have these kind of deals?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, Michael Caine was the really famous one that we talked about, where you can now go to Eleven Labs and put things in Michael Caine's voice. And he signed off. They licensed his voice from him. Um, and I believe, yeah, they, I think they've done it with a few, like estates or people. So they do have licensing deals with big celebrities. I guess maybe they thought they would get away with this because Chris Williamson is just a YouTuber and is not,

• 1:27:48Speaker 00

  What does it cost to, to, to do a Michael Caine expert?

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  I have not, I have not checked it out. I, I don't know exactly how much it costs, but like,

• 1:27:56Speaker 00

  I wonder how much it costs. Like, what is the cost?

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  That was the famous one. I remember them doing the, yes, sir. It was in November 2025, they announced Sir Michael Caine partners with Eleven Labs and he's available in their iconic marketplace, they call it. Um, I'm trying to, I'm looking at the page right now, seeing if I can find how much it costs.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm looking at it myself.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  David Hasselhoff, Dr. Maya Angelou, Grimlock from the Transformers. Wow.

• 1:28:23Speaker 00

  So I guess this is kind of like, um, This is kind of like a cameo, but.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Right. But you could put anything, any, well, I mean, guess within reason, if 11 Labs AI allows it, you could put any text you like in Montgomery Clift's voice, or Michael Caine's voice, or, you know, Grimlock from the Transformers voice.

• 1:28:48Speaker 00

  Huh. So price depends on the project and what the use is. Ad, podcast intro, audiobook, how big the audience is and how long the license runs.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  John Wayne.

• 1:28:56Speaker 00

  That's how celebrity endorsement deals are priced, not like per minute text of speech plans. So I guess maybe you have to request it and then you request.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  I'm on the page.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  Okay, so let's.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  You have to request, and then you fill out this form, and then they get back to you with how much it would be.

• 1:29:10Speaker 00

  Well, look, and there's a Stan Lee, so they're doing dead people. Michael Caine's alive, right?

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  No, a lot of those are dead people. Ricardo Montalban, John Wayne, Sir Laurence Olivier, Maya Angelou, we met Judy Garland, a lot of them are.

• 1:29:22Speaker 00

  Maya Angelou has passed?

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Yes, Maya Angelou passed a while ago.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  Montgomery Cliff, Optimus Prime.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Jackie Mason.

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  Professor Plum.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Jackie Mason. Yeah, that's, I don't, I don't understand.

• 1:29:33Speaker 00

  Sir Roger Moore, Sir Michael Caine, Sir Laurence Olivier.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  They do, they have, they have like clue characters. Hasbro obviously has a deal, because like, you could get like Colonel.

• 1:29:43Speaker 00

  All right, here's what I want. I want you to go price out my team for Wednesday show, or for whatever, Tuesday show, This Week in AI, whatever we can get, as quick as we can get it. Price out, doing the introduction for the pod, a 60-second introduction where we just say, "Welcome to This Week in AI. I'm Sir Michael Caine's voice clone, and we'd like to welcome you to the show. Here's our guest." They do the guest intros on a show.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  A famous person, voice, guest intros on the show, one minute or less.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  Let's try it.

• 1:30:13Speaker 00

  Write it up for the next This Week in Venture, This Week in Audio, and everybody, please, go to TWIstartups.substack.com.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Please.

• 1:30:21Speaker 00

  250 tactical and practical talks per year. Pull it up on the screen. Beautifully designed, beautifully curated. We get 20, 30 submissions per one we select. For but $100 a year, you get 250 tactics. The price is going to go up when we hit 100 subscribers to 250 a year. And this is worth it, folks.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  I got a great one going up today with Grant Lee from Gamma, his guide to two-week fundraising.

• 1:30:50Speaker 00

  Two-week fundraising?

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  He says, "Do all your fundraising in just two or three weeks. Don't drag it out." And that would go all in depth. He walks you through his whole process.

• 1:30:59Speaker 00

  The next thing I want you to do here is take something like that and find the opposing view. Find, and then I want you to, in the copy, delineate where they diverge in their advice, and then.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  We have done a few like these, where I come at it from multiple perspectives. So yeah, no problem. We'll do that.

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  But then link to each other, and like, "On this date, we also covered this. Here's what they say." And then one of the infographics could be like, "Here's what Jason says. Here's what Diane Bannister says." And like, agreement, disagreement, why?

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  I'm gonna make it.

• 1:31:32Speaker 00

  And that's what I really want to do with the infographics. So what we're trying to do is get these, we built a style guide. I talked about that on the previous episode. We have the style guide we built with Claude Design. Really cool. And then Lon goes back and forth with Claude Design to try to make really good infographics, so you can get this information as quick as possible into your brain.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  When I'm writing and proofreading, I then give that copy to Claude, and I say, "Suggest six or seven or eight infographics," and then we fine-tune the ideas until we get the final graphics that you see.

• 1:32:03Speaker 00

  Great collaborator, and sorry to like designers and illustrators in the world, but I mean, I think you couldn't do what we're doing with an actual human, because it would take too long.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  It would, the price would be much higher, because we'd have to pay an artist for their time, several hours, to create these graphics.

• 1:32:21Speaker 00

  Per. I think it would be two hours per graphic, and you put four per newsletter?

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  So, yeah, three or four.

• 1:32:27Speaker 00

  Eight hours.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's both time, it would take an extra day, because I'd have to then communicate what I wanted.

• 1:32:34Speaker 00

  At least, because you go back and forth.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  We'd go back and forth. And then the expense, that each newsletter would be three, four X.

• 1:32:39Speaker 00

  If we hired an illustrator, if we had a full-time illustrator, they wouldn't be able to keep up with this. Five days a week, you really would need two.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  I'm doing three Substack posts every day. The idea would be that eventually they'll all have graphics. So no, you'd need at least two, if not three illustrators.

• 1:32:54Speaker 00

  No, you'd need five, because a person would need 48 hours to do this, really, with the back and forth. And then you have to be at capacity, you have to be like 30% extra capacity when you're staffing a media property, because turnover slash.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  People take a day off.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  Burnout, people take a day off, et cetera. So, you know, plus 30% is what you need in a daily publication like this, maybe even plus 50% if you're trying to go for real high quality like we are. But we're hiring, you know, two full-time writers, business writers. Go to careers.launch.co, you can see all the jobs we're hiring for. So we need two business writer analyst types.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Please, I desperately, help me with this.

• 1:33:34Speaker 00

  Well, no, we're not desperate. We're just, we're not desperate. We want to hire the right people.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  I'm not desperate, but I could use some help.

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  Well, it'd be nice to have help. And we have a junior position, you know, two to five, two to seven years' experience position, then a senior position. So three different positions. If you're junior, you want to learn, you can apply, and then learn from Lon. If you're senior, and you want to take Lon's job, and so we can move on to other things, we'll take a senior person.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Please.

• 1:33:59Speaker 00

  If you're in between senior and junior, we'll take that person as well. That's one of my philosophies. If you have good culture at your company, you can kind of hire two or three different zones of experience, if you have a good culture of learning and adapting. Careers.launch.co. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Bye, everybody.