Is OpenAI Really Worth $300B? ElevenLabs' Series C & YC's Funding Focus | E2079

Today's show: The AI revolution is about to hit your household—Jason and Alex break down how general-purpose robots, AI-powered chicken coops, and voice clones are redefining daily life and work. They dig into OpenAI's sky-high valuation, the surprising rise of DeepSeek's R1 model, and why the AI cost curve is dropping at an insane pace. Plus, the latest on AI hardware, antitrust battles, and why the "No Buy 2025" trend could change how we think about consumer tech. * Timestamps: (0:00) Jason and Alex kick off the show. (3:10) Episode topics overview and fan participation (5:48) Meta's Ray-Ban smart glasses discussion (9:27) Paddle. Go to https://www.paddle.com/twist to get started with your exclusive listener fee-free period. (11:05) 11 Labs' Series C funding and voice cloning technology (18:09) Automation's impact on jobs and ethical considerations (20:05) Northwest Registered Agent. For just $39 plus state fees, Northwest will handle your complete business identity. Visit ⁠https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/twist today. (21:22) Market trends towards sustainability and AI in smart chicken coops (27:04) Y Combinator's AI startup focus and investment considerations (29:47) Scalable Path. Get 20% off your first month at https://www.scalablepath.com/twist (31:42) AI in compliance, auditing, and personal staff replacement (35:06) AI development tools, hardware investments, and data trust issues (39:29) AI company valuations, OpenAI's revenue, and AI commoditization (51:04) AI ethics, SoftBank's strategy, and audience questions on AI hardware (59:27) Government AI funding, DOJ suit, and tech industry commoditization (1:09:21) AI advancements, consumer electronics costs, and computing hardware trends (1:12:08) Closing thoughts on technology's impact on life and teaser for next week * Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.com Check out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.com Subscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcp * Follow Alex: X: https://x.com/alex LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelm * Follow Jason: X: https://twitter.com/Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis * Thank you to our partners: (9:27) Paddle. Go to https://www.paddle.com/twist to get started with your exclusive listener fee-free period. (20:05) Northwest Registered Agent. For just $39 plus state fees, Northwest will handle your complete business identity. Visit https://www.northwestregisteredagent.com/twist today. (29:47) Scalable Path. Get 20% off your first month at https://www.scalablepath.com/twist * Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarland * Check out Jason's suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanis * Follow TWiST: Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartups YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartups TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartups Substack: https://twistartups.substack.com * Subscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@founderuniversity1916

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jason Calacanis?

  You're literally going to have an Optimus robot, you know, a middle class, upper middle class household, somebody who could afford a Tesla, you know, 10 years ago, like $100,000 Tesla, they're going to be able to afford to have a $500 a month robot, general purpose robot, getting those eggs, chasing away the, using the AI on that coop to know that the foxes are there, chase the foxes, grab the eggs, make scrambled eggs, make you a frittata to your specification, wait for it, it's coming. Bring it.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  This week in startups is brought to you by Paddle. Self-serve software is global by default, but selling to every country is complicated. Paddle's merchant of record manages payments, sales tax, chargebacks and refunds, so you don't have to. Wherever you want to take your business, go there with Paddle. Go to paddle.com/twist to get started with your exclusive listener fee free period. Northwest Registered Agent. Starting your business should be simple. With Northwest Registered Agent, you can form your entire business identity in just 10 clicks in 10 minutes. From LLCs to trademarks, domains to custom websites, they've got you covered. Get more privacy, more options and more done. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/twist today. And Scalable Path. Since 2010, Scalable Path has connected businesses with top-tier remote developers deeply vetted and ready to deliver.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  From JavaScript to machine learning, they've helped over 300 companies tackle big projects and scale faster. Visit scalablepath.com/twist for 20% off your first month.

• 1:18Jason Calacanis?

  All right, everybody, welcome back to This Week in Startups. Alex Wilhelm, Jason Calacanis here, three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or about an hour and 15 to an hour and 30 on the live stream. And then we edit that down to the best 50 to 60 minutes for the podcast, for the replay crew. If you want to watch us live, just search for This Week in Startups on YouTube. And then you can follow me, x.com/jason, x.com/alex. We go live on my X account. We also go live on LinkedIn, which has a very cool live product as well. Today is Friday, January 31st. Can you believe it? But I am super excited because I'm not as sick as I've been the last, literally would be two weeks as of Monday when I got hit at the, yeah, I mean, you got hit January 20th,

• 2:01Jason Calacanis?

  literally at the day of the inauguration, I got hit with this influenza A and then some kind of deep lung thing, but I'm out of it now. So that's good. And the COVID outbreak at my house. Is over.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, there you go.

• 2:12Jason Calacanis?

  Well, I'm coming back to life, but man, these respiratory illnesses this winter, lot of theories about it. Think it's just that everybody I was talking to a friend of mine, Will Barnes, and you know, putting aside conspiracy theories. There's a really interesting explanation. We because we all sheltered in place for a couple of years. The thinking is maybe we all had our immunity go down a little bit. And now that we're all out in the world again, doing stuff on mass in a large way. Hey, maybe things are starting to spread, but did you get it too in your household? Did you get the?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  We have just had a series of colds. So there's always been one to three running noses in the house, Jason, and that has just been seemingly chronic for the last month and a half. So I don't even know if I'm sick right now because I don't recall not being slightly sick. So I I'm just really excited for spring. I want everyone to go outside to the park and get outside of the strollers and just get out of the cabin fever moment. I've had enough snow. I'm glad you're going to go skiing, but here in Providence, if there was no more snow, I will be A okay with that.

• 3:10Jason Calacanis?

  All right. Well, we got a lot on the docket. Let's just get started here. And for those of you who want to follow the docket, we're doing something new this week in startups.com slash docket. You can just see the docket and then what we're seeing is some of the super fans, what we used to call the producers. We used to have a little cool program where we let people subscribe like on Patreon or something and they would become. We would call them executive producers, producers, depending on the level they did. And it was never like some grand amount of money. I think it was like a low thousands of dollars a month. But what it did was it kind of gave people permission to have fun, participate in the show. So I'd like you to participate in the show by going to this week and startups.com slash docket. And if you go there any day, you'll see the docket being built by the research team in real time. You get more data and you can contribute to it by posting comments because we're using Notion, I believe.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  We are.

• 3:55Jason Calacanis?

  Notion allows the public to post a public comment. Correct? That's how we have it set up?

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So if you're on the twist 500 newsletter list, you'll get an email every single show day, usually about an hour to an hour and a half before we go live. And people are dropping in comments. We just love the feedback. We love the interactivity. We love hearing from you. And also, Jason, you and I are two people. We're not going to see absolutely everything. So more eyes, more folks, more input. You might even call it crowdsourcing. As we used to back in the day, but I love it.

• 4:21Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and let's put a section there, uh, stories you want to hear. So maybe at the top we could put suggested stories and then people could just comment there and just throw URLs in of things you want us to, you know, rapid fire or and then maybe questions, uh, startup questions, but let's review what we're going to talk about today. What's on the docket?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Quite a lot. First of all, 11 labs closed. It's enormous. 180 million dollar Series C. We have some financial information to go through there. It's a round that I'm very excited about. A lot of commentary about DeepSeek and the Singapore Nvidia connection. And if a lot of Nvidia chips are going through Singapore, we have data and a chart. Jason also saw thing might be dropping an enormous new sum of money into OpenAI. There's been breaking news all day about tariffs. And then of course, we have an antitrust story because it wouldn't be Twist without talking about antitrust and what the Trump administration is doing with the HPE Juniper deal. And why it's a little surprising.

• 5:09Jason Calacanis?

  And there was that Y Combinator, um, hey, here's a bunch of, uh, you know, they like to do their call for startups, request for startups that we do as well. And, um, it was basically get rid of these jobs, replace these jobs. So the static team size trend is now becoming a trend of compressed team size or consolidating teams size. And so let's make sure we put a list of our trends that we're following on the docket as well, maybe or a link to it. And you can all see the trends that we're kind of thinking about here as we try to build a mental model of where the world is going. And I know that we were talking about, uh, the Meta smart glasses and, uh, I saw there was some data about that. Maybe just start there.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  The news here is that during an all hands over at Meta, uh, that leaked because they always do. Uh, Mark Zuckerberg unveiled that they sold a million of the Ray-Ban smart glasses and the commentary inside the company was how did we get from one to two, one to five? But Jason, we discussed on the show that, you know, Reality Labs and Meta's overall VR push has been highly expensive and some people say wasteful, but they do seem to have found a consumer hit in these Ray-Ban glasses. And to me, that does show that one, Snap was right, a little early, but was correct with spectacles. And that also we're going to see a multi-form factor face computer world because if you think about where Apple's going with the, uh, Vision Pro compared to consumer VR compared to this, all very different, all

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Services for AI and kind of consumer tooling. So I'm shocked it was that high. It's a lot of money.

• 6:35Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. And, you know, selling something that is under $500, under $400, under $300. Every time you come down like a hundred bucks there, consumption goes up, people will try stuff. And let's face it, these VR glasses have always been like a Christmas present level, platform level purchase.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:52Jason Calacanis?

  Which makes it, you know, for most Americans, I usually put it at when it gets to a week's salary or something like that.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 6:58Jason Calacanis?

  You're really in considered territory. So if, you know, average person makes, you know, the United States, whatever, a thousand bucks a week. You start looking at that, you know, when, when things cost a thousand bucks, you gotta think, hey, well, it's a whole week's salary. Whether it's a car payment or whatever. So then we go back down to the next level when it's a day's salary, when it's a hundred bucks, 200 bucks. People can get frisky. Ah, you know, I worked today, now I worked five hours as a DoorDash driver. I bought these hundred dollar glasses or 200 dollar glasses. People feel a little bit different about it. So I think they're, what is the retail price on these now? Is it 300 or 299?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  349. There's actually price differences based on, I think, which models you get and so forth, but between three and $400.

• 7:33Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. So they're, they're about to drop down to a price that, you know, I could see them selling 10 million of these, you know, a year. Where if you were thinking about buying sunglasses and having sunglasses that can record photos, like what's the difference? And so I always wonder why, or I wonder what the build of materials are on these and then how much they're losing on them. If this actually is a really good platform, they could afford to lose money on it.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:00Jason Calacanis?

  And, uh, you know, sell them at a bit of a discount. So, um, you know, here, what did they say there?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  These are 329 and they also have options into 379. I actually was just fact checking myself. I think they're actually kind of cool looking. Uh, because I was worried that I was talking out of my backside, but no, I had it right. I think if they got down to 150, they would sell.

• 8:18Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  At least five million a year. But then here, okay. I'm always a big fan of corporations that have a lot of money, be very aggressive on pricing, going out there and building new markets, taking leadership and just eating the cost for a bit because they have so much money. So if you were meta Jason, how much would you be willing to lose per device on these things? Uh, I think I'd be cool with 50 bucks.

• 8:40Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I mean, if you if you did $50 and you got to millions of people using these, would those people be posting more to their Instagram? Would then their followers engage more with their content because this content is unique? So there's a whole formula of downstream users. And then there's also lock-in. So did these lock people in and create a moat for Instagram, you know, for Facebook? And I just, I don't participate in Facebook, except to send my occasional Instagram photos of skiing or food to it or stories like that. And so, you know, I'm amazed that there are still like old people on Facebook. Like a lot of the Gen Xers and my parents and their people between my age and my parents' age are all over Facebook.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  My parents are on it and my siblings are not. There you go.

• 9:27Jason Calacanis?

  Did you know you're required to pay digital sales tax wherever your customers are? Well, no one likes dealing with this type of administration, whether it's taxes or accounting, especially when you're in a busy startup. And that's why Paddle has stepped in to put your billing and your taxes on autopilot. Whether you're launching a SaaS product or maybe you've got an app, perhaps a game, you now can reach billions of people globally. That's the magic of the internet. It's the magic of the App Store and it's awesome. And it's one of the things, hey, as an investor, we love too. But this scaling brings tons of challenges. It's like taking payments in local currencies and navigating all those regional tax laws. They're complicated. Plus, you got to manage fraud. You got to manage refunds, right? And that's different in every market.

• 10:10Jason Calacanis?

  And that's a massive headache that's going to slow you down from doing, you know, important work with product market fit, hiring and raising money. So let me tell you, a messy payment stack is going to eat up all your time, all of your energy and money. These are big company problems that you're going to face even as a small company and they compound every time you enter a new market. Well, Paddle was built to handle this for you. Hey, listen, maybe this is unsexy, but this is what building and scaling a startup is all about. Sometimes you got to do your chores and you need a partner. Paddle's going to be your merchant of record, your MOR, and they're going to handle payment localization, fraud prevention, tax compliance, customer billing support so that you can grow faster. Hey, man, if you need to launch a new

• 10:50Jason Calacanis?

  Country, you're done. You want to add a payment method? Easy. And you want to set local pricing and you want to do it intelligently? One click. So here's your call to action. Wherever you want to take your business, go there with Paddle. Paddle.com slash twist to get started with your exclusive fee free period. That's paddle.com slash twist to unlock your no fee startup period. This other story is about 11 labs. I think is super interesting. The basic reason 11 labs exists is because of agents, correct?

• 11:20Speaker 02

  So voice AI and in their case, I think it's mostly aimed at kind of the customer success and support function with some other bells and whistles, but it's not agentic in the way we think of agents like the OpenAI operator sent Jason.

• 11:32Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. Okay. So they may, they're doing voice, which means either processing voice on the way in or processing it on the way out. So if you call customer support and agent's going to talk to you and that agent is going to be powered by 11 labs.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yes, they have some of their own models. They also have a way that you can with words, tell the AI how you want to do sounds. You can kind of design your own AI voice. They have a consumer app that's pretty popular that lets people just use their voice AI technology to read stuff back to them. They've even built a new sound feature that lets you describe a sound effect you want, and it'll create that for you. So I think it's definitely been very focused on the AI voice application, but they're expanding more into just anything involving AI and sound, which is pretty exciting. But the news for everyone who might be a little bit behind is that a much reported series C was put together. It is a $180 million round at a $3.3 billion valuation.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  And Jason, we've talked a lot about unicorns in the 2021 era context. I don't think that those companies that were raising at 123 billion back in peak Zerp had $90 million in run rate. I mean, so this company to me is already almost old school IPO size a couple of years into its life, showing frankly, how much revenue there is to be generated by leading AI startups. I view this as a pretty bullish overall event and the valuation 37x give or take, baking one year of growth, it's 20. So to me, I can kind of see this. I don't, I'm not. Not that mad about it.

• 13:00Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, so yeah, they had, according to reports, 25 million in 2023, and then it jumped up to 80 million. People estimating ARR was closer to 90 million. You know, and you can get the reoccurring revenue just by taking the last month, if it's subscription, times you get by 12, obviously. And so if they're at 90 million, uh, you know, 10 times that is 940 times that is 3.6 billion. That's about where we're at here. So, yeah, it's not a crazy multiple, given that they tripled revenue year over year. And so when you're calculating revenue for startups, if you're tripling revenue year over year, that is considered hypergrowth. If you're growing 30%, 20, anywhere from 15 to 30% in the public markets, you're high growth.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:41Jason Calacanis?

  So if you put the Facebooks, the Apples, Ubers, Airbnbs, and they're growing 15 to 30% year over year on larger numbers, billions of dollars in revenue, that's considered high growth. But at the startup phase, you know, you're looking for tripling revenue year over year, which is roughly, you know, what high growth in the public markets would be 15 to 30%. So you're looking at, you know, have 10, 20 times

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:04Jason Calacanis?

  that velocity in order to get these premium valuations. And I guess this is being made by people doing API calls. So this is a business very similar to AWS. It's a cloud service. You use it to make sounds and to make these agents and to do voice. So it's, you know, destined to become part of the suite offered by people like AWS, Oracle, Google Cloud and Microsoft Azure. That's who they're competing against. Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think an underreported story, and I'm pointing that finger at myself, is AI companies teaming up with AWS, with Azure, with GCP, and using those as a sales funnel. A lot of noise was made this week about Microsoft quickly adding R1 to Azure, which people thought was kind of a flick of Sam Altman's earlobe, and maybe, maybe not. But I do think that the distribution, uh, commercial distribution available via major cloud platforms is enormous. So I view it more as like a, a potential partnership with the hyperscalers, Jason, versus a competition. Like, I don't think Microsoft wants to get into the voice AI model game, per se.

• 15:07Jason Calacanis?

  There'll be open source models to do this. I don't believe Eleven Labs is an open source model. There'll be open source models that do this. The regular language models will do it, and then you'll just be picking based on price and fidelity. So, you know, it's always good to pull up the pricing page to understand startups and what they're doing. So if you go to eleven labs.io slash pricing, we can take a look at what they're charging. And when you look at what people are charging and how they're charging, that's a really easy way for anybody analyzing a business to understand it. And they're selling credits from individual creators to enterprises. They have a plan for you. And for creators, if you want to make content, you can do this for 11 bucks a month. You get 100,000 credit limit and you can make 100 minutes of ultra high quality text to speech per month.

• 15:52Jason Calacanis?

  100 minutes of conversational AI with up to 10 concurrent requests, et cetera. And you get these professional voice cloning to create the most realistic digital replica of your voice. So I'd love for our team for the next episode on Monday to just try this. Eleven Lab, please just sign up for this and let's try making a version of me doing an ad. And just take a couple of episodes, put it in there and let's see if we can make an ad and how hard it is for a content creator to do this. I love that. This is another example of like, my Lord, if we could actually make a better version of me reading the ads. That was higher fidelity, that was crisper and that could be made in real time.

• 16:34Jason Calacanis?

  You start thinking about the possibilities. Now, everybody loves a host read ad, great. But imagine if we IP or, you know, use localization content and somebody like, I don't know. Let's say LinkedIn wanted you to be able to talk to a local rep rather than, you know, just going to a LinkedIn forum, right? To get your job listing. Now imagine, you know, the Australian audience and, you know, whatever, 5,000 people in Australia hear the ad. And at the end of the ad, it says, hey, go to, you know, talk to Suzie at LinkedIn Australia. They're having this, right? And they just made a Google sheet, you know, a database of, you know, the 20 different regions that they're targeting. Who the ambassador was.

• 17:20Jason Calacanis?

  For that region, for this SaaS product, or for, you know, whatever, you know, cloud service it is that we're promoting here on the podcast, you know, that could be very powerful. And it would be in my voice. So I think that's what's coming and that and that's going to be super interesting for folks.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  All right. You know, that is such a great positive take on voice cloning. And I think we often just hear the bad stories, like, you know, parents, a strange son gets voice cloned and they get ripped out of $500,000, whatever. But I like the optimistic take there, and I think it's going to be pretty cool for a sales organization. Because imagine if you just take out that customization, that voice, maybe not your voice per se, but like, you know, one of their best AEs. And then you could do so much that's automated on the sales side. My concern only becomes though, that eventually if we only have robots talking to robots, I wonder if they're going to be able to actually do deals. Uh, cause you have to have a human on one side of the AI doing the answering, I suppose.

• 18:09Jason Calacanis?

  It does feel like we will be having a moment, uh, and we'll, we'll come up with a theme for this, but, um, you know, it's kind of like they came for my job. And so when did they come for your job? Is I want everybody to think about this because we're all like really high on, uh, you know, uh, Waymo and Tesla self-driving zoops and self-driving to save lives. But there's also going to be millions of jobs that are going to go away because of that, you know, it'll take 10 years or so. And then here, you know, when did they come for the podcaster's job? And here we are, you know, I'm literally talking about, hey, maybe we don't need me to do this. And if you look at the notebook LM, it does that podcast feature to like learn.

• 18:51Jason Calacanis?

  And it's a bit of a gimmick right now, but it will get to the point where you will have a podcast created custom for you every day. Yeah. That, you know, knows what you're interested in and some AI reporter will, uh, read you the news if, you know, as Boba Fett or whatever your favorite character is. And I don't know if that'll be, I think there'll be a counter to it, which will be, people will want a more authentic, imperfect, acoustic, bespoke, artisanal. And you see that already. We have mass production of food. People can get, you know, uh, literally a dog food. I was talking to, uh, I went to Mike Jones from, uh, Science Labs and, you know, we have an investment with them in this, uh, Sour Boss candy there. And they did, uh, liquid debt.

• 19:36Jason Calacanis?

  And he was recalling going and talking to Walmart or Target or one of these big people. And they were talking about innovation and the big innovation was putting cereal in dog food bags. That was the big innovation at Walmart. In other words, you know, you have you seen the big dog food bags? Imagine buying one of those for your family with corn flakes in them to spike everybody's glucose and make them.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  I was about to say, I think the Maha team will have a really big view on bigger bags of corn cereal.

• 20:05Jason Calacanis?

  Hey founders, you want to build the next great billion dollar business, right? Well, you're gonna need two things, a killer idea and a properly set up company. I can't help you pick the idea, but I can help you get your business started the right way with Northwest Registered Agent. With Northwest Registered Agent, you can form your business for just $39 plus state fees, one of the most affordable options out there. No hidden fees, no upsells, just a simple, straightforward process. And here's how it works. In 10 clicks in 10 minutes, your LLC is officially formed and ready to operate. Northwest handles all the paperwork fast, accurate, and hassle-free, so you can focus on building your business, not navigating all those crazy legal forms.

• 20:48Jason Calacanis?

  Thousands of entrepreneurs trust Northwest Registered Agent because they make business formation affordable, efficient, and stress-free. And with their expert team standing by, you'll always have the support you need. So here's your call to action. Don't let paperwork hold you back from your entrepreneurial dreams. Get started today at northwestregisteredagent.com/twist. That's northwestregisteredagent.com/twist. For just $39 plus state fees, your business could be up and running in no time at all. Get more value, more convenience, and more peace of mind only with Northwest Registered Agent. Then I'm looking at the counter, which is on the Maha side, which I'm a big fan of. Well, people making overnight oats from raw oats and, you know, using, you know, more organic products.

• 21:33Jason Calacanis?

  And so there's always a counter to, you know, the processed. So the more we process stuff and the more we create efficiencies, the more people are going to also want organic, efficient stuff. And we're putting our chicken. coop in next week and there's this really cool company you can look it up but I met this founder who has a chicken coop company and it's a smart chicken coop he sent me one you know I don't like to take free things but he insisted and he sent it and I was like okay fine and so we're setting this up this week and here it is I'll give him a free plug here but we're gonna have a coop and this one is a smart coop that has HD cameras and automatic coop door all weather design it monitors with AI has real time insights and remember I talked about

• 22:14Jason Calacanis?

  the ridiculousness of like oh there's a cold plunge app go polar well people responded to that clip you know in a big way thanks to the team for making a nice clip of this you know you can make very niche things with AI with small teams now here is a smart chicken coop and I said to I like oh I might be interested in you know investing this and then he told me how much he'd raised and I was like oh my lord now what are the problems with chicken coops Alex you ask is maintaining chickens yeah it's it's hard work and your chickens get slaughtered by predators and so they just looked at like what makes owning a chicken coop hard and it's like monitoring the chickens making sure they don't get any know if there's eggs you know maintenance whatever and they went down that list and solved it

• 22:56Jason Calacanis?

  there's a big movement in the United States to get off the grid you know with solar with batteries and with protein and with vegetables and when we have robotics you're gonna have 10 years from now you're gonna start to see people who are living off grid with batteries with solar you're already seeing that with Starling with these chicken coops and with an Optimus robot for 500 bucks a month instead of a car walking around bringing the eggs from the coop to your house and making you scrambled eggs 10 years from now you're literally gonna have an Optimus robot you know a middle class upper middle class household somebody who could afford a Tesla you know 10 years ago like a hundred thousand dollar Tesla they're gonna be able to afford to have a $500

• 23:42Jason Calacanis?

  a month robot general purpose robot getting those eggs chasing away the using the AI on that coop to know that the foxes are there chase the foxes grab the eggs make scrambled eggs make you a frittata to your specification wait for it Coming.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Bring it. That sounds awesome. I'll take it. I, I'm, look, I'm not, I like breakfast, but I hate cooking in the morning. So bring on the frittata, bring on the omelet, scrambled, fry it, don't care. But I want to go back. So those coops are $2,500 at the, at the top end, which is less than I expected, frankly. But you said, how much money this guy raised? Are you, can you tell us? Cause I couldn't find a Crunchbase profile for this business.

• 24:18Jason Calacanis?

  I don't, I don't want to say, because I didn't know, but it was basically, he had left the seed stage where we, we, we invest pre-seed with Founder University, put the first 25K check into a company before they're incorporated at a million dollar valuation. Then we do a accelerator where we put money in at like a $2 million valuation, like Y Combinator people. And then we will participate in five to 10 million dollar valuation seed rounds typically, keep our pro rata, put a little bit more in to support the founder if the terms are reasonable and there's some growth. And then we leave it up to the seed community, seed dedicated funds and for series A funds. And so if you're interested in any of that, go to launch.co or go to founder.university. That's where we like to invest. So, you know, sometimes we're not the right investor for people who are at that series A phase, because there's other folks who do that kind of investing.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, shout out to the chicken coop guy. My sister in Sunnyvale, which I'll just, I won't say any more details about that, but she has chickens in her backyard because she has a particularly large lot. And I thought she was going full on crunchy granola, like our hometown back in Oregon. And it turns out she was just ahead of the curve. So apparently I should ask what she's doing next, because apparently everyone will do it in five years.

• 25:19Jason Calacanis?

  I previously lived in the Tony outpost, since I don't live there anymore, I'll just say it, of Hillsborough, next to San Mateo, which is like, you know, one of the higher zip codes in that area and in terms of the average home price. And many people had chickens. You couldn't have roosters though, because they would wake up your neighbor. So you could have up to like six chickens or 12 chickens per acre or something. There were some local ordinance, but one of our neighbors who lives in a multimillion dollar house would have so many eggs.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:45Jason Calacanis?

  And these are people who obviously are millionaires. They don't need to do this, but they wanted to have organic eggs. They would come by every month and just drop off eggs in our house. And they were the most amazing organic, beautiful eggs, you know, for colors.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Neighbors ever. That's a hack right there.

• 26:00Jason Calacanis?

  Pretty great neighbors. Yeah. So, uh, I think this is where we're going to be moving. And actually, you know, I hate to get all. You know, Zuckerberg and go into my Joe Rogan era, but I also wanted to learn how to butcher them as well in case, you know, there's some civil unrest or we have another COVID, God forbid, or some kind of pandemic. I would like to have a protein source off grid to be able to manage these kind of issues. And so my daughters are not happy about that. They said, I can't kill the chickens.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  That's where I draw the line, not because I have an ethical, well, I mean, I have ethical thoughts about meat consumption. I'm a big meat eater. So just that's where I stand. But, um, I recall a day, this is a little bit off topic. I'll keep it short, but my, my child, the best friend's dad had gone hunting and had shot a, I think it was an elk, if memory serves, and they slaughtered it at home. And I walked into their garage after they had done that. And, you know, that was enough for me on the, on the butchery side. I'm good. I think

• 26:51Jason Calacanis?

  There's the silence of the lambs. Have the lambs start crying.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  It was, it was brutally gross. And I'm a little squeamish by nature about bones and tendons and stuff. I like my, I like my wings boneless. You know, that's where I stand. So

• 27:03Jason Calacanis?

  There you go. Okay.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  On the chicken coop front, though, I love the niche idea. Let's talk about what YC wants to fund because sadly, chicken coops are not on there. I wanted to bucket these for us. That way I could break down, Jason, you know, like this topic, that topic. There was one topic and it was AI essentially. So where YC's focused is that kind of three categories, AI infrastructure, AI applied, and then hardware, which I'll talk about at the end. So very briefly for everybody, a request for startup from YC used to come out once a year. They've increased that cadence, basically saying things are changing quickly. As we've all seen with DeepSeek, things can change overnight. So no beef with me there. Makes sense. What's on the list? Okay. They would like to someone to build an AI app store with a focus on security. So you can keep your data private. Just imagine instead of the app store that has candy crush and so forth on it, an enormous number of AI specific

• 27:49Speaker 02

  apps that are consumer friendly. That seems obvious to me. Questions about platforms? We'll see. I like it, Jason.

• 27:54Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. An AI app store is an obvious idea. And there were, uh, there was a version of this, which was prompt engineering stores. There were people, two years ago, we talked about it here on this podcast, selling prompts. Of course, that was a short-lived business because now with reasoning in things like deep research and O1 and some of the new products by Gemini and the products. By ChatGPT and OpenAI. The reasoning is built in. So if you don't know how to do a prompt, you can just ask it to make a prompt, or it makes a prompt, as we saw when we used deep research on the program countless times. So I do wonder if this is going to actually exist outside of Gemini and other places, because they would, if it's going to exist,

• 28:34Jason Calacanis?

  it's going to exist in those places. And there is one inside of ChatGPT. They called it plugins at some point.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, they made a store for that. It was terrible. No one used it and it kind of faded away. That was a rare aborted product launch from OpenAI. People forgot about that, actually. It's gone, disappeared.

• 28:50Jason Calacanis?

  Sometimes it takes two or three swings at the bat. So, you know, that was using like integrations into Kayak, let's say, or, you know, into Redfin or other, you know, Zillow. And it was kind of kluge. That, as I predicted, would be built into Gemini. When you do Gemini now and you ask it about a flight, it gives you a Google Flights data inside of it. So it's pretty obvious Google's going to win a lot of those. And it'll probably, the AI App Store will probably be the App Store. So, you know, if you open Google Play, it'll probably be like the AI agents will just live there, just like games or ringtones and some of those other, remember there was a ringtone section in, you know, the app stores for a while because they were trying to make that into a thing where you could.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Oh, that was a, there was a moment in music business when ringtones were a serious percentage of total music revenue. People forget, I mean, if you're young, you weren't there for it. But people used to have clips from their favorite songs play, and that was considered both normal and not rude.

• 29:48Jason Calacanis?

  Finding great developers can feel impossible, right? It's like one of the hardest things you can do. You've got to juggle all the technical challenges, looming deadlines, and of course, you've got to be on budget, right? You're a startup, or maybe you're a big company, you have a big company budget, you know, there's a CFO watching it, or you're a startup and you have limited resources. In both cases, you've got to hire top-tier developers. That shouldn't slow you down. It should be speeding you up. And that's where Scalable Path comes in. They help you build your dream team and scale your business with confidence. Scalable Path has a custom vetting process that ensures every developer is the perfect fit for your stack. They create personalized technical tests tailored to your needs. So devs, when they

• 30:25Jason Calacanis?

  Join your team, they're going to hit the ground running and they've got a global network that connects you to over forty thousand top tier developers with expertise in all the important languages and tools you use, Python, JavaScript, AI, machine learning, you get the idea. And the best part, their talent is affordable. They focus on regions like Latin America where you can get a world-class developer without the Silicon Valley price tag. And since 2010, Scalable Path has completed over three hundred client projects, perfecting a process that eliminates the endless interviews that you're going to have to sort through. And you know, sometimes people snow you and you get somebody who's great on paper and then they don't deliver. You can trust the talent you get from Scalable Path to deliver exceptional results on time and on budget.

• 31:07Jason Calacanis?

  Scale smarter with developers who deliver by using Scalable Path. Go to scalablepath.com/twist to get started today. They're going to give you twenty percent off your first month. You might not need it. It's already a great price. But they want to make sure that they know you came from this week in startups. So please use our URL and use that code to get that twenty percent off. I just want to make sure that they know we sent you scalablepath.com/twist. And it was ninety-nine cents. So it was kind of fun. Like I put the Imperial March on my first iPhone and I use a Star Trek. To this day, when I get messages, it's a Star Trek. Um, what is it communicator called on Star Trek?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Uh, not, not a phaser. Um.

• 31:44Jason Calacanis?

  It does like that, you know, kind of, anyway, that was, you know, my phone ring used to be the Imperial March, um, which got quite annoying for everyone around me. So that's where I think that will live. And then these compliance and AI audit tools, those are already happening. So.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:59Jason Calacanis?

  Compliance and audit, whether it's KPMG or whatever service it is, those audits cost a lot of money. And I think they want to replace people. I think that these are going to be better suited, like TaxGPT is doing or some of the legal services. There's the one legal, um, AI company that Sequoia just did a big round in. Harvey, the guide on the side is going to be what's happening. You're not going to take the legal doc, the legal certification or the CPA out of the loop with these compliance tools. They're going to do the first pass at it and then there's going to be human in the loop. So.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  But probably fewer CPAs require. Required to review work than to do it all de novo. So it's probably going to be a compression back to our static team size becoming compressed team size.

• 32:42Jason Calacanis?

  Yep.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Another place where the Y C folks are looking is building AIs to replace personal staff. They point out that wealthy people have had access to private doctors and private coaches and all sorts of things. Uh, they think that's going to become AI fied and more generally available. I think maybe we'll see. I'm a little.

• 33:00Jason Calacanis?

  Give me an example of what they mean by that. You're talking about like your personal trainer or your personal assistant.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Doctor. Yeah. So basically if you're wealthy enough to hire a human to do a task for you on a regular basis, either to help you do something better or to do something for you, they expect AI, maybe AI plus robots, Jason, back to your optimist point, uh, will fill that niche. And I, I agree with this in time, but I, I don't know if we have the technology yet to replace, frankly, the human connection that I enjoy in those roles. I, I, I like the human element in someone knowing me who isn't a computer.

• 33:35Jason Calacanis?

  These things already exist as personal coaching, uh, in apps. So Nutrisense, uh, company we're invested in, uh, has a nutritionist that you can include in your subscription when you're looking at your glucose monitor to kind of coach you through things. We have another startup Blaze that was using AI to, uh, help people with coaching for like, I don't know, race car driving. And they had human in a loop. Fitbod, another investment I always use, machine learning to look at your last work and make you a new workout. So this kind of concept has always existed and you can just take whatever rich people pay for. I did a tweet about this just a week or two ago that went viral. A rich person, uh, paying for a high end product will eventually make its way down.

• 34:15Jason Calacanis?

  And it will be everybody's personal driver. And that's what Uber's, you know, you, everybody gets a chauffeur kind of a situation.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:22Jason Calacanis?

  DoorDash, everybody gets a personal chef, Airbnb, everybody gets a second vacation home. You can just take things that rich people experience today, which might be a masseuse, which might be a personal trainer. And then you can abstract it, use technology, use AI to make it more available. And that's really what Fitbit is doing, uh, a Fitbod rather. So if you go to Fitbod, uh, I think it's Fitbod.me is their URL. It just starts with Fitbod. You know, a personal trainer, knowing what you did and then knowing what equipment you have and then making you a new workout. That is, you know, a hundred bucks or 200 bucks if you live in a city. If you go to a person every week and now you can do that for $59 a year. So it already exists. I think it's a, it's a fine premise or a fine framework to think of startup ideas for sure.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  The way that I would maybe just down then is use AI and the deflationary price movement of technology products to take things that are currently too expensive and make them more mass, mass available. So it's essentially the same story we've seen with technology, just in an AI context. Okay. I mean, again, that's cool, but we've also done it in a mobile context before in a cloud context. So this is the next kind of platform iteration. Couple of other quick things before we let everyone go. Dev tools for AI agents, I thought was a pretty cool idea. Essentially, how do you help people build more agents quickly and, and, and better? I think everyone wants an AI agent that does stuff for them. I don't think many people have them, so I like that. And then the other one that stuck out to me was software to support open source AI usage.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  So who's going to build the companies that will support other people using open source software? We had WeV8 on the show, just a hundred company, vector search, open source with services on top. Great model, venture applicable. And so I think we're going to see a lot of, um, a lot of good work there. And then hardware Jason, just really quickly, they talked about startups to accelerate data center build out. I liked that. I liked that they didn't back away from the idea that we need still mass investment in hardware because it for like 48 hours there, I feel like everyone was like, oh, deep seek solved the hardware problem. I, that wasn't true.

• 36:24Jason Calacanis?

  No, it wasn't. Um, as I tell everybody, do not trust any data or information or the government of China. It is a dictatorship. They, you know, uh, lie, they steal IP. It's just, you can't trust any report out of China, uh, at face value, whether it's like Alibaba's earnings, I wouldn't trust it. Or it's a claim about, uh, you know, Tik Tok. Do not trust anything at face value. And this idea that they spent $6 million probably leaves out hundreds of thousands of illegally imported H100s via Singapore that they're not putting into that cost. And then you compare it to the cost that

• 37:05Jason Calacanis?

  Maybe OpenAI and Sam Altman quotes, well, Sam Altman is going to pump up the fully baked cost of doing a model. Why? He wants to scare people from creating competitive models, right? So he's trying, and he said, don't even try to out hustle us, you know, in building these models. You will not be able to compete because we have so much hardware. So he's trying to freeze the market. Therefore, he will say it's 100 million to create ChatGPT 3. It's a billion to create ChatGPT 4. It's going to be 10 billion. He's pumping the number up. So you can't believe him on that side because he's going to overestimate it. And then coming out of China, they're going to say, well, it was 6 million. Well, 6 million maybe to run it in terms of the electricity. And if you divided the cost of the H100s that are illegally in China

• 37:49Jason Calacanis?

  through Singapore allegedly by, you know, a 20 year lifespan per hour, you know, you get the idea. You can do fun with numbers. And so

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Can I just say, though, that I feel like everyone, I feel like they're getting hit for something that they didn't do. So what I have here is the the DeepSeek V3 white paper. And they say that the training costs of DeepSeek V3, assuming the rental price of this GPU at that cost per hour per GPU, pre-context, post-total, like, they tried to provide a reasonable accounting here. And then I think what everyone did was they conflated this, which is for V3, which is not R1. R1 was a improvement on that with other additional features to make it better for reasoning. But I think everyone went, oh, R1 costs 6 million. They're liars. Hey, there. Let's, let's

• 38:37Jason Calacanis?

  It's just not apples to apples comparison. And so, you know,

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Hard agree. That's what matters.

• 38:41Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. And you have one group saying, okay, well, we spent a billion dollars on H1s. And we use those H1s to make this LLM. Therefore, it's a billion dollars. And, you know, you can just have all kinds of fun with numbers, depending on how you depreciate the asset or the utilization of the asset. You know, and $1 an hour to rent something could be $1,000 an hour, depending on how you frame it. And the devil's in the details.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Can I say a headline, though, Jason, about your China point? Because I don't mean to argue against your point that China's GDP numbers are a little bit sketchy. But I love this from the Atlantic Council. China's economic New numbers, same overstatement.

• 39:18Jason Calacanis?

  So sure.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Hard agree with with everything about not trusting biased sources. And when it comes to investors and people like Sam Altman, they are talking their book. And I always read it with that context, but a good reminder to everyone out there.

• 39:29Jason Calacanis?

  Well, and I think that's probably a good segue into this peak valuation. I had said, you know, I thought we were hitting peak Nvidia. You know, sometime in the next couple of years, you would have this sort of peak Nvidia moment in terms of competition is coming. People are going to make their own chips and then software will become more efficient. As we saw with R1 using maybe more commoditized hardware, less generation of hardware, better software, better techniques, et cetera. Because constraint makes for great art. If you give somebody one sheet of paper and say, write a great song, they're going to be very thoughtful. If you give them a laptop with unlimited storage, you know, the song may never arrive. And so sometimes you need, you know, a little constraint, right? Like, or you're not going to get your paycheck unless you submit this song. I always tell the story about Bob Dylan and Blood on the Track.

• 40:14Jason Calacanis?

  So putting all that aside, I also thought we were hitting peak valuation for OpenAI.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:20Jason Calacanis?

  Because there seems to be so much headwinds against them. However, Masayoshi Son, who loves to counter any kind of reasonable valuation, is reportedly looking at putting 25 billion into OpenAI at a $300 billion free money. Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  I think it might be post, the $300 billion number is very fuzzy. This is often the Wall Street Journal's reporting. But I mean, just keep in mind that they were worth 157 billion before. And that's what Jason said was maybe peak. So this is effectively a doubling. And that's such a Masa move to just like, well, double it, add a zero. And you love him for it. I don't know if I will want to put my own money into OpenAI, $300 billion. But I do want to make a comparison here because I think we lose a little bit chunk of comparative scale. So the other day, Deepsea comes out, Nvidia loses, what was it, 17% of its valuation?

• 41:12Jason Calacanis?

  $600 billion, largest.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  $600 billion, exactly.

• 41:16Jason Calacanis?

  The top of the market cap.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Off the top of the market cap. So do you think that OpenAI is only worth half of what Nvidia shed in one day?

• 41:25Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, it's all, yeah. I think you have to make two bets here. One is what's the actual traction in business of OpenAI?

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:32Jason Calacanis?

  Is it the consumer business of people buying ChatGPT for 20 bucks a month? And you know, how much of the revenue is that? Or is it the API, people hitting the API and paying them for requests? And they're in competition with AWS and Microsoft Azure, which has all the weights and put up R1 as a way to maybe even more than flick, you know, Sam Altman's ear, but maybe put him in his place and say like, listen, we're agnostic. If people want to use R1, which is based on allegedly stolen training from OpenAI, we're going to actually support that. Think of, like, let's just pause there for a second of how cutthroat Saffy and Adella is. Sam Altman has claimed and OpenAI has claimed that R1 was stolen from OpenAI and that they're, you know,

• 42:16Jason Calacanis?

  have these reports of people, you know, hitting their API and doing this sort of learning and reinforcement learning, et cetera, and training it on OpenAI and it's stolen, yada, yada. They stole our IP. They stole our IP.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  And then-

• 42:26Jason Calacanis?

  And what does Microsoft do the next day?

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yes, they support on Azure.

• 42:29Jason Calacanis?

  And they're like, here, go ahead. And it's, and it's cheaper than anything OpenAI offers.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  Well, you know what Microsoft has become over the years? An oddly strong supporter of open source. And people forget this transition. People are often still stuck in that 90s mindset of like, you know, Microsoft 1.0. But Microsoft's been messing with open source for a minute now. And they don't care if you want to run R1 or an OpenAI model on Azure, pretty much, as long as you're doing it on their compute.

• 42:54Jason Calacanis?

  If you're doing it on their compute and you have their credit card. So, and then the third piece is what would the valuation be? Um, based, so you have the valuation based on it being a Google competitor, right? You ask questions, you get an answer. Will people pay 20 bucks a month for that sustained over time? Or is there an advertising model that merges? Then there's the second piece, the API going up against Azure and Google Cloud and AWS and Oracle and everybody else. And then the third piece is something else. Artificial general intelligence, something else emerges that is worth 300 billion. So if you were to put these in buckets, we do have some reports on their previous revenue for each of those product lines. Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  So we know that they were supposed to have reached $3.7 billion. In 2024, which is, to be clear, an enormous revenue amount and a real accomplishment and not to not to be diminished. The breakdown that I've consistently seen is that OpenAI makes most of its money from subscriptions, the 20 bucks a month that I pay, the corporate account that Launch has, et cetera, whereas Anthropic, which is smaller and is probably closer to the billion dollar run rate mark, has a lot more business on the API side, those API calls from corporate customers. Now, I don't think that either of these starting points means that they won't converge at some point in time, but I think that this is the clutch year for for OpenAI, because if they get Project Star get off the ground, if they raise more money from SoftBank, they will have had every single possible advantage that they could want, right?

• 44:19Speaker 02

  So they are supposed to go from 3.7 billion revenue last year to 11 or 12 this year, according to some reporting about internal projections and so forth. If they get to 12 billion dollars this year, everyone will shut up.

• 44:31Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  If they don't, we'll see.

• 44:34Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and and these prices keep coming down. So my understanding is with R1 coming out, OpenAI is also going to lower, you know, the token cost and everything like that. So what we're going to experience over the next couple of years is, I mean, the cost of running jobs on AI is just depreciating. Like, is it 10x a year, 5x a year? We're going to need another Moore's Law for how much it costs to do a job, you know, and there's some unit of a query and how difficult it is to do that query, because now if you can start running these things locally on a couple of MacBook, you know, MacBooks or M1s, you know, where are people going to actually send their jobs?

• 45:14Jason Calacanis?

  And then it becomes about fidelity. And I actually think, you know, AI queries, we, these might become so commoditized that we look at them as good of a business as storage and bandwidth, which is another way to say a commodity business. I think this is becoming modified so fast that anybody who wants to create a robot, self-driving, a SaaS app, a mobile app, you know, pick your.

• 45:42Jason Calacanis?

  You know, verticalized agent, they're going to be able to create it so cheap that it all becomes commoditized. What happens to self-driving as a concept? If there's so much AI, there's so much training data out there and it's so cheap that, I don't know, any car manufacturer can just say, fire up this open source AI, fire up, you know, all of this training data and we're back in the game and everybody has self-driving. That's, you know, 99.5 nines at the same time. Then it becomes just a manufacturing issue. Who can manufacture the most cars and run the most at scale network?

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Yes, but that's why I think it's smart that Waymo and Tesla and We Ride are trying to do quick commercial applications of self-driving because if it does end up just being, I can get a Ford, a GM or whatever, and they're all the same, then no one really has leverage. But if I don't buy one because I've already been captured by Waymo or Tesla or someone else who just wants to sell me a robotaxi by the minute, by the hour, by the day, by the ride, that's a completely different model. So it's a race in that way to the point of commoditization of a model. Now, about the AI curve, I'm going to show a post from Dario Modi, the guy who runs Anthropic, and he did a blog post about DeepSeek V3 and the

• 46:58Speaker 02

  training costs. And he said that if the historical trend of the cost curve decrease is 4X per year, then we would expect a model that's three to four X cheaper than 3.5 Sonnet, one of their models, about now. He argues throughout this that essentially the lower cost for training DeepSeek V3 is in keeping with the cost curves we're seeing today. The crazy thing is, if this persists for another 18 months at the current rate, it will change the world forever by bringing such high-level models to the market at such low costs. That's why I kind of get excited whenever OpenAI drops something and they're like, it's really expensive. You, please don't use it too much. Like, O3 is supposed to come out today. I guarantee you, O3 is going to be expensive as hell today.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  But in six months, it's gonna be three pennies a call from three different companies. I mean, yes.

• 47:46Jason Calacanis?

  It's a, it's a, I think open source is gonna win the day. And there's a great irony here. I talked about it on All In, which will come out today as well or this weekend. It's kind of rich that OpenAI stole everybody's content, got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, you know, and then they're complaining, and then they flip to a closed source, flip to a for-profit. So they do all these things that I would consider unethical or highly unethical, stealing other people's content without permission, flipping from a nonprofit to a for-profit. Then they're crying foul when somebody does their original mission, which was to open source. And that just happens to be the Chinese doing it. And they, they have stolen some content, apparently, or they, you know, they don't have the same content regulations there. They don't care about IP over there.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  It's different.

• 48:29Jason Calacanis?

  They just steal it as quick as possible. And that's their, their philosophy of it. And now OpenAI is crying foul. I think open source wins. Sorry, that's just my belief. I think open source is gonna win this. And if I did raise 30 billion and I was, Sam, you know what I would buy? I'd buy Quora, I'd buy Reddit, I'd buy Twitter, I'd buy the New York Times, I'd buy the Washington Post, I'd buy the Disney Corporation. This is where actually the value might reside. And especially if the New York Times wins its lawsuit. If the New York Times wins its lawsuit and then Disney joins the New York Times, Washington Post, Reddit, Quora, just pick anybody who has at-scale data. And they all start creating a voting block and they just go to every single LLM and say,

• 49:10Jason Calacanis?

  if our data is in there, we're going to just hammer you with lawsuits until you say, uncle. And when that happens, that would be the equivalent of if the content industry had been as coordinated, the news industry, the magazine business, as the music industry was with Napster with Google. Can you imagine if Google couldn't index New York Times pages or all content, CNET back in the day, all that stuff that was in there? If they had just said, yeah, no, you can't index us. And as a group, we will not let you index our content unless you pay us a license. Google would have had no choice. And Google would be giving 70% of their advertising to the content creators or some number of them, just like the music industry does with Spotify. Spotify has to give what, 60, 70, 80% of every dollar?

• 49:50Speaker 02

  65, I think, is their current kind of gross margin rate. Yeah.

• 49:52Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, so they have to just shift that money.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  10% of Google's, of Google's search revenue that went to content production? Dude, I would be like rolling up in a Bentley today. Like, like, I mean, like, that would be so much money for me. Do you know how many millions of words I have published over the course of my career that has just been taken? I don't feel bad for OpenAI. I also agree that open source is probably going to win. One thing I don't know, and I need to look into this more, is what is the possible copyright exposure of Meta with Llama and their open source models? Because I don't think that just having something to be quasi open source obviates the copyright risk of using copyrighted information in your training. So I'm curious if we're using OpenAI as the example here, but even if a lot of the open source AI groups are going to have the same problem.

• 50:38Jason Calacanis?

  They will have similar issues and they will get injunctions against them. And it'll be a little bit more kludgy, like who do you sue? And who do you get an injunction against? But there's nothing that says like some open source community couldn't get a legal letter saying, hey, you use Star Wars and created an open source Star Wars, you know, model creator and you're making Star Wars IP. We're going to get injunction and make GitHub or GitLab or any number of places that post it or fork it. And we're just going to send a legal letter to them and shut it down and put it in the underground, which is what happened with BitTorrent, right? Or other services, those things just became underground services. They still exist. They just don't exist in a mass way because the legal options are so much better and fluid and affordable.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  And just more ethical. I think people like to be ethical. They won't be if they're getting ripped off, but.

• 51:28Jason Calacanis?

  I pay for three music services. I pay for Spotify.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:32Jason Calacanis?

  I pay for Apple Music as part of my bundle. And then because I got into high fidelity, I started doing Cobuzz, Q U B O Z, I think it is, which is like this French high fidelity thing. And so I'm paying unnecessarily, I guess, for Spotify, uh, because I have Apple Music in the family, but my family prefers the interface, but Apple Music comes for free. And then actually with my YouTube subscription, my premium, I get YouTube music.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  So you have four and also you have some access via Prime.

• 51:59Jason Calacanis?

  So, oh, yeah, maybe my Prime has free music too.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  I think there's some music attached to Prime as well. So that means, Jason, you are literally the most important music fan in the world. Thank you for supporting the arts. I do this in a slightly different fashion. I buy, um, vinyls and tapes and CDs from bands that I love when they have, uh, records come out and. I have a tape of Fit for an Autopsy's latest LP, The Nothing That Is. I don't have a tape player, but it was small and it was like 10 bucks. And I'm like, I love you guys. Here's, you know, so.

• 52:27Jason Calacanis?

  I think it's cool to do that. I love, you know, people doing that. And you'll see there's two vinyls. Somebody gave me a gift behind me. Those are two Dire Straits of the original Dire Straits albums that somebody just handed me at a conference.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Someone knows what you like.

• 52:41Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I just put it on the shelf. They'll never get plays. They'll just be on the shelf forever, but I like it.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Once my front living room stops being a in-house daycare for my girls, I can put my record player back in there. That'd be great. Closing off the OpenAI story, a couple of notes about this. OpenAI did participate in the last 6.6 billion dollar funding round for OpenAI. So SoftBank already has about 500 million dollars into the company that way. It also did later last year, a 1.5 billion dollar tender offer. So they already own about 2 billion dollars worth of buy-in in equity in OpenAI. So if they do another 15 to 25 billion.

• 53:16Jason Calacanis?

  And then what happens with the conversion? You know, like they keep hitting these valuations to OpenAI. OpenAI keeps hitting these record revenue numbers. So how does the nonprofit collect on that? What happens to this like 10x or 1,000x?

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:31Jason Calacanis?

  Then we turn to open source. I mean, the layers of rules that have to occur and then layering this amount of money on top of it. What happens if they legally can't flip? What happens to all that money? Does it get returned to investors? I mean, I would love to understand the legal risk that Thrive Capital is taking, Kushner over there, Josh Kushner, or Masayoshi Son. Like they're putting LP money into this potential house of cards. And if they can't flip into a for-profit, do they just get their money back? But what if the money's spent? Like this is a large amount of risk to take for tens of billions of dollars or any billions of dollars.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 54:10Jason Calacanis?

  So I don't know, man. I just, this seems like pretty frisky to me.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Oh, it is.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  It's we're talking about SoftBank Jason.

• 54:18Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  The mobile pizza company and the dog walking company. They don't care. And that's what I like about it because everyone else is trying to like, do what we do. You know, what's the revenue multiple? Masa goes, I like sand. Do you want 25 billion dollars? Okay, but for fun, I'm going to read this lead from the journal because it's just, it's too funny for words. Reading for everyone from the Wall Street Journal. In his newly built palace near Tokyo lined by stone statues of Roman emperors and surrounded by an 18 hole golf course. Masayoshi Son was stewing after declaring for years, the imminent arrival of the artificial intelligence revolution. The chief executive of SoftBank had missed out on it. Quote, I haven't been able to do anything, he thought, according to a speech he gave to SoftBank investors last year. Can I just get old like this and die? I love this guy.

• 55:05Jason Calacanis?

  Is awesome. I mean, greatest investor in the history of investors. I mean.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  And the worst.

• 55:10Jason Calacanis?

  Well, I mean, you just take the swings, you know, like it takes a certain amount of chutzpah. Mahone's to be able to make giant swings like this and not care about past failures or zeros. And then just keep momentum investing. This is like the ultimate momentum investing and it's, it's great that it exists in the world to a certain extent. Whether I would want to participate in it as an LP? I don't know. I mean, I've chosen not to, I do a different type of investing, but hey, more power to them. I think we have some good questions from the audience that we could potentially hit. I saw somebody was.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's, let's drop one. So here we have from CCCC. If Stargate goes through, isn't a big chunk of that budget for hardware? And would this be a bullish sign for companies like Grok and Nvidia? Grok is a company that does AI inference hardware.

• 56:00Jason Calacanis?

  Sure.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Used to offer it as a kind of a purchasing now offered kind of via a cloud service. And Nvidia, of course, makes all the chips. Just to be clear, CCC, I, I think Jason and I are still pretty bullish on the hardware component of AI. And worrying about OpenAI's valuation. I don't think undercuts the overall story of the need for a lot of, of spend on hardware's chips and network and equipment. We're just concerned that maybe this one company with this one model and this one historical corporate structure. Might be having a valuation attached to it that will be difficult to earn into. But Jason, your thoughts?

• 56:31Jason Calacanis?

  You know, sometimes we overbuild capacity for certain things and sometimes we underbuild it. We've underbuilt electrical capacity in the United States. And at a point in time, we overbuilt fiber and we overbuilt storage. And then, you know, creative entrepreneurs look at the plummeting cost of both of those and created YouTube. And then YouTube was like, you know what? Uh, you could upload unlimited and there were used to be caps. You could, I think maybe YouTube, it was like you could upload a five or 10 minute video. And then they went to an hour and then, you know, Google Photos or Gmail started at whatever gig. And then it went to terabytes and then it went to unlimited essentially. So you can create products and services that are based upon overbuilding. And so one person might overbuild capacity and then another person might find a use for it.

• 57:17Jason Calacanis?

  And we saw this happen in the big data revolution. We, it was too expensive to store, uh, storage logs. So I remember when we were doing email newsletters in the nineties, Brian Levy had set up these Qmail servers for us. And we had all the delivery stats and I loved looking at the delivery stats, but he said, listen, you know, we have to put another hard drive in. We got to put another, uh, you know, disk array in. And I was like, yeah, but what do we do? And there was like, oh, there's a piece of software to roll all this up and then give us the top level reports. So then we started saving the top level reports of opens and closes. And I was like, man, it'd be really good to have this granularly to see which people open the email every day, which ones open it every other day. But we had to literally have discussions about how many of the logs we wanted to store. And the same thing with page views on Engadget.

• 57:59Jason Calacanis?

  And we basically at a certain point said, don't just delete the logs and keep the top level of reports. And we paid for some software to just keep PDFs on a, another hard drive because it was getting too expensive. Somewhere along that journey, cloud computing came out and we didn't have to rack servers anymore. Then it became a discussion of, well, what's our storage bill? The same thing happened with this very podcast. We were spending 10,000 a month storing these like giant files. And then we realized, you know what? We'll just put the final edit on YouTube. It's in 4K, it's in HD, we always have it, it's always stored there. We have a backup on, you know, this other storage system. And then Libsyn and other people started making it free or close to free or unlimited. So that's what we'll see with this overbuild. It's overbuilt. People are going to do ridic- seemingly ridiculous things with that extra capacity.

• 58:41Jason Calacanis?

  Some of them will be amazing. Some of them will be superfluous and silly and, you know, people can afford it. So I'm not too worried about it, to be totally honest. And I, I don't think I am worried about is the government paying for this. We're, we're in this whole thing of trying to control our spend. And I saw some headline go by that maybe Sam Altman and these guys were trying to get money from Trump to do the build out of these servers. Absolutely not. If there's people like Masayoshi Son out there, or, you know, sovereign wealth funds or venture capitalists, they should be paying for the build out of this, not the American public. Hard no on that. Enough with the public paying for everything. I don't want to see Sam Altman or anybody else going with their hat out, asking Trump to give him $100 billion

• 59:22Jason Calacanis?

  for us to win the AI race when it should be won by open source.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Wow. Lot, lot to unpack in there. Um, I'll, I'll say that I, as far as I, I've, I've read, there is no public money in Project Stargate confirmed. I know that he probably wanted some, but I don't think he's gonna get it. And I think your point about SoftBank is correct. But the last thing I'll say on this is, you know, Satya over at Microsoft has said that we're building out this capacity because there's so much demand for AI inference, which is using kind of models out in the wild. And Anthropic has said that they are compute constrained and part of the OpenAI Microsoft beef has been OpenAI has wanted more compute than Microsoft was willing to give them. So to me, there is the chance that we are going to overbuild, Jason's point. And if we do, there'll be some positive benefits to that as well.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  I'm just not worried about overbuilding right now. If, if we were opening-

• 1:00:14Jason Calacanis?

  This is the job of capital allocators. There are capital allocators out there who have choices of where to put their money. They can put it into municipal bonds, they can put it into treasuries, or they could put it into CoreWeave or Project Stargate. Uh, yeah, but back to stolen IP. That's like a protected series. This is a really good series and a really good movie. Like, how do you just go out with your audacity and steal the term Stargate? I wonder if they paid.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Jason, they stole the internet and then they chewed it and then they're spinning it back to us for a dollar. I mean, come on, man.

• 1:00:44Jason Calacanis?

  Who cares if they steal somebody's IP for their movie?

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:00:48Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, literally, that is a beloved science fiction series and they just, I mean, why don't they just call it Star Wars? Just steal that.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Star Trek Wars.

• 1:00:58Jason Calacanis?

  Star Trek.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. I want to hit a couple of things, though, before we move towards the end. First of all, we have talked about antitrust on this show ad nauseam because it's a big deal for venture, for startups. The news is that over at the DOJ.

• 1:01:11Jason Calacanis?

  Okay.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  After Trump took over. There has been a suit from the DOJ to essentially block the HPE, Hewlett Packard Enterprise and Juniper deal. And here is the logic from the DOJ. We've excerpted this. I'll read it for folks who are on the audio part. The proposed transaction between HPE and Juniper, if allowed to proceed, would further consolidate an already highly concentrated market and leave US enterprises facing two companies commanding over 70% of the market, the post-merger HPE and market leader Cisco Systems International. This substantial lessening of competition in a critically important technology market poses the precise threat that the Clayton Act was enacted to prevent.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  Jason, this strikes me as an incredibly reasonable argument against a combination inside of an industry. However, it's also a technology deal worth billions of dollars. Market feedback was surprise at the Trump administration's move here. This is not startups. This is big companies. This is public companies. Does this make you worry about the Trump administration's posture towards technology combinations? I'm just curious.

• 1:02:14Jason Calacanis?

  This has to be a multi-year investigation. So while Trump's been in office for 10 days, I guess, 11, this is obviously probably been in the works for at least four years. For whenever this deal was struck, that they started looking at it. So I don't know when they started this investigation. So while Trump has inherited it, I think looking at router technology, you know, which is what these folks are in. Dell has these, obviously Huawei, which is banned in the United States and countless other people build these. These are commodities. You know, routers sending data and packets is a commodity business and it is a race to the bottom.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:56Jason Calacanis?

  You can go on. I talk about this Unifi that I love. I'll give them a free plug here. This is like an upstart. Unifi is this incredible IT company for, that I'm in love with. And if you go look at what they build and you just go to the pricing section for these routers. And you just click on like the dream machine here. So if you go to like, uh, switching and you just prick any of their switches, uh, professional, professional max enterprise. These things are unbelievably cheap and they're using the same ones in homes as they're using in enterprises. Mm hmm. And then you go over to like camera security, click the next tab over camera security, then click the next tab over door access.

• 1:03:37Jason Calacanis?

  And you look at all of these integrations that they have VoIP, the next one over, they have taken the entire stack from Cisco. And commoditized it. And if you go anywhere and you see Unifi routers, these routers for wifi cost a hundred bucks, a thousand bucks. The switches cost 500 bucks. The cost of these things is essentially free compared to when I started in the industry. Yes. The equivalent of these were, you know, when you were putting them in, you would basically say, we're going to put, you know, $4,000 for each PC on people's desk to set it up. And then we're going to spend two or $3,000 to set up the network for each person. Then we're going to spend two or $3,000 for, you know, each person's share of the server capacity. Yes.

• 1:04:17Jason Calacanis?

  And you would build server. So you'd be looking at an enterprise, you had a thousand people in your company. Let's say you were, where I work Sony Music is a thousand people. Sure. You would say $10,000 per person every four years. We'll spend $10 million on IT to put in this infrastructure. Now, the same PC is 500 bucks. The same router per person is 100 or $200 per person. And then, you know, it's all done with wifi. You can do cables, whatever. It's all been commoditized. So this is the kind of case that makes no sense. It's a commodity business. It doesn't matter if it consolidates down to two or three players because anybody can undercut it. And even when you look at the Unifi stuff, and you go to UI.com, they're not sponsors or anything here, they're looking for things to do. They have EV charging they added, right?

• 1:05:01Jason Calacanis?

  They're doing digital signage. They're looking for things. They added premium audio to their offering. So when you Go to integrations. They've now added essentially a Sonos competitor inside their product. Now, why would you have that? Well, some number of people who use these networks want to have music in their offices or their cafes or whatever. So the long tail of these things, then you go on to Amazon and you look at Netgear, like the real cheap consumer stuff. Then under Netgear, there are commodity ones that look exactly like Netgear, probably made in the same factory, that have some, you know, bozo logo on it you've never heard of. So there is nothing to worry about here. This is just overreach. Consumers have won this already and enterprises have won it.

• 1:05:45Jason Calacanis?

  It's silly that we're even having this discussion in the Riviera Mirror because this was settled 10, 20 years ago.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. So all of that was kind of what I was thinking, but here's the, here's the part that surprised me and here's why I brought it up because this is not just a Biden era DOJ hangover. Over in CRN, there was a quote that says from someone who is party to this overall transaction. My first thought was this must be a holdover from the outgoing DOJ leadership. So I was shocked. This Assistant Attorney General was appointed just recently by the new administration. So this is actually a potential data point that the Trump administration, even though you and I make a disagreement on this case, might have more antitrust teeth than people thought. And if that's the case, there will be some sad faces out there, but I don't think-

• 1:06:31Jason Calacanis?

  It's $14 billion, right? Is that what this acquisition is going to be for Juniper? It's nothing. Like, what are we doing here?

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Oh, God, I'm not going to use the R word, but-

• 1:06:38Jason Calacanis?

  This is-

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  R word. Silly. This is silly, Jason. We can say silly.

• 1:06:44Jason Calacanis?

  It's silly.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Shockingly enough, HPE and Juniper are both very mad about this. And just really quick, before we go, I want to show the chart. We mentioned it earlier about Nvidia's revenue via Singapore, how other companies might be getting these chips. This is a chart, Jason, that shows-

• 1:07:01Jason Calacanis?

  Okay.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I think you'll just understand this from the get go, but if you track reported revenue from Nvidia, who sells chips to Singapore, a country that you are allowed to send chips to, their revenue from Singapore went from $1 billion in the second quarter of 2023 calendar to about $7.7 billion in the most recently reported quarter. Where do you think those chips are going, Jason, given that Singapore is such an enormous place?

• 1:07:26Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I mean, uh, the population of Singapore divided into this number would be really interesting to sort of see like how much, you know, just have fun with numbers. Uh, I think Singapore is a tiny country. Um, in terms of population.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  It's six million people, so it's a thousand, it's, it's $1,200 per citizen of Singapore into Nvidia spend. That, if that was the US, that would be, uh, 400 billion dollars.

• 1:07:52Jason Calacanis?

  Anyway, uh, it's pretty obvious what's happening here. Uh, Nvidia knows what's happening. Our government knows what's happening. Singapore knows what's happening. These things are getting on a slow boat to China. Uh, that's what's happening, folks. And so these export controls, if we're going to be serious about them, uh, you know, Singapore and Nvidia and the government are going to have to get on the same page here. The perception I have about all this is this race is reminding me of nuclear proliferation.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:08:19Jason Calacanis?

  Which is there are nine countries that have nuclear weapons and you, the only way to stop this is, uh, to control the hardware, the metal, the, the materials.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Jason Calacanis?

  It's gonna be pretty hard to do, obviously, but we did it with nuclear proliferation. Russia, France, Germany, UK, United States, South Korea, China, Israel, they deny it, India. And I guess Pakistan, uh, has some rogue stuff. North Korea has some rogue stuff. So Iran has some programs. So you're looking at like nine or so people confirmed and then, you know, a long tail of three or four people who are, uh, mucking about. Ukraine obviously gave them up when they, um, you know, separated from the USSR. In exchange for security, a little footnote there. Uh, don't ever give up your noobs.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, just, just hold on to them.

• 1:09:07Jason Calacanis?

  Hold on to them. Never give them up. You, it'll not work out well for you. But I think that's what we're going to be looking at here potentially is, you know, just slowing stuff down, but that's the most you're going to be able to do. And it's going to create abundance for everybody on the planet. So I think the hopeful version of this is like nuclear power. We could have clean energy for everybody. The downside is nuclear weapons. With AI, we could have robots getting your chickens from your chicken coop and making you eggs and having free food and having free products and services that go down to zero. What is it going to cost to make a car? When there are no humans in the factory? What is it going to cost to take coal out of the earth if we even needed to or do

• 1:09:49Jason Calacanis?

  any picking of berries when robots and AI do this perfectly? We're going to see the price of food, energy and products and services continue to plummet. You can buy a flat panel TV now for 200 bucks, like a giant one, 300 bucks. Like, open up Amazon.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  I was shocked at how cheap our Mr. Sen TV was.

• 1:10:08Jason Calacanis?

  I'm gonna- Just to give people an idea of this, you pull up a 50 or 60 inch cheapest LED on Amazon Prime right now and you sort it by price for a 50 inch or 60 inch, you might be able to get a Vizio for, you know, at Walmart, a Vizio might cost you 200 bucks, 300 bucks for a TV that 15 years ago was $5,000.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  But Jason, I literally, this is just a blank search, log in on Amazon, 60 inch television-

• 1:10:33Jason Calacanis?

  60 inch, absurd.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  60 inch. The second one costs $300, the third 55 inch costs $234, $240.

• 1:10:41Jason Calacanis?

  That's insane. What does it cost to get it to your house? Like, the shipping cost is 50 bucks.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Free delivery tomorrow between 8 and-

• 1:10:50Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, what are we talking about here, folks? I mean, just keep doing the math. That 55 inch TV, like I said 10 years ago, would have been at a zero, right? 20 years ago, it would have been at a zero. You'd be talking about, at CES, it was 3,000. So, we've seen this happen with TVs, you're seeing it happen with the M4. You look at the price curve of the M4 Mac Mini, this computer for $499, I believe is the entry price, $599, is more powerful than anything else in the lineup right now without a monitor. And that's Mac, that's like the high end. You look at a Chromebook, you can buy a Chromebook for 99 bucks, you can buy a Chromebox for 99 bucks, you can buy a stick PC for 50 bucks.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  The cheapest Mac Mini that runs the M4 non-pro is 600. You can spend up to, for M4 Pro, you can spend up to 1,400, but that's a-

• 1:11:41Jason Calacanis?

  Sure.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  12 core CPU, 16 core GPU, 24 gigs of memory and a 512 gigabyte SSD.

• 1:11:46Jason Calacanis?

  That's for somebody doing rendering of like CGI, you know, like-

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  But like, but like, but think about like five years ago-

• 1:11:52Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  You would have gotten half of that for twice. As much and that's the cost curve we talked about from Dario and Anthropic and everyone else. So this is why I remain optimistic. The world has many things going on in it that I have feelings about, but I do have pretty reasonable confidence in the fact that technology is going to make our lives better.

• 1:12:08Jason Calacanis?

  I want to put one more thing on our, um, our docket to talk about for next week and for our Noddy gang to maybe start talking about, which is anti-capitalism slash hacking capitalism themes. I want to just sort of talk about this next week at some point. There's a trend called no buy 2025. Um, and then there's Apple selling less iPhones, uh, a trend we've talked about here for a couple of years. And, uh, you know, people skipping, upgrading it.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:12:34Jason Calacanis?

  This no buy 2025 combination of a reaction to inflation with fire, uh, you know, financial independence, retire early, overworking, all this kind of stuff is, and this abundance that's coming is a very interesting trend I want to explore next week. No buy 2025. Very interesting.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  I have lots of thoughts about this too. I have an essay brewing on the different perspectives on what AI is going to do to prices, employment, consumer surplus and so forth. So great. We'll, we'll get to that. I'm X.com slash Alex. He's X.com slash Jason. We are Twist, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, thisweekinstartups.com slash docket, twist500.com. You're handsome and lovely, everybody. Goodbye. There we go.

• 1:13:12Jason Calacanis?

  All right. See you next time. Bye bye.