E543 Dr. Ryan Martin

Dr. Ryan Martin (aka the Anger Professor) is a psychology professor, author, and the Dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay. He’s an expert on anger, and the author of How to Deal with Angry People, and Why We Get Mad: How to Use Your Anger for Positive Change. “The Anger Professor” Dr. Ryan Martin joins Theo to talk about why we get mad, how anger from childhood reappears later in life, what’s really going on when people get road rage, and how to deal with these feelings in a better way. Dr. Ryan Martin: https://www.instagram.com/angerprofessor His book, “Why We Get Mad”: https://bit.ly/3NX53j0 ------------------------------------------------ Tour Dates! https://theovon.com/tour New Merch: https://www.theovonstore.com ------------------------------------------------- Sponsored By: Celsius: Go to the Celsius Amazon store to check out all of their flavors. #CELSIUSBrandPartner #CELSIUSLiveFit https://amzn.to/3HbAtPJ Valor Recovery: To learn more about Valor Recovery please visit them at https://valorrecoverycoaching.com/ or email them at [email protected] ------------------------------------------------- Music: “Shine” by Bishop Gunn Bishop Gunn - Shine ------------------------------------------------ Submit your funny videos, TikToks, questions and topics you'd like to hear on the podcast to: [email protected] Hit the Hotline: 985-664-9503 Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: https://www.theovon.com/fan-upload Send mail to: This Past Weekend 1906 Glen Echo Rd PO Box #159359 Nashville, TN 37215 ------------------------------------------------ Find Theo: Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheoVonClips Shorts Channel: https://bit.ly/3ClUj8z ------------------------------------------------ Producer: Zach https://www.instagram.com/zachdpowers Producer: Nick https://www.instagram.com/realnickdavis/ Producer: Cam https://www.instagram.com/cam__george/ Producer: Colin https://instagram.com/colin_reiner Producer: Ben https://www.instagram.com/benbeckermusic/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Theo Von?

  You ever realize that you spent your entire morning thinking about lunch? It's 9 a.m. and somehow I'm already in negotiations with myself about how I'm gonna spend $20 on a sandwich at noon. And then I eat it, or you eat it, or somebody eats it, and then an hour later, you're just standing in the kitchen worrying about what you'll do for dinner. And that's one reason why I've been into Huell. The Black Edition Powder is a complete meal you have instead of food, not a shake on top of food. Their powder starts at less than $3 per meal, has 40 grams of protein, and mixes with water or milk in about 30 seconds. I like Huell's shakes because they're clean and it's quick.

• 0:41Theo Von?

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• 1:26Theo Von?

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• 2:10Theo Von?

  Local time with pre-sale code Rat King. Uh, general on sale starts Monday, November 11th at 10 a.m. local time. We also have a few tickets remaining, uh, for Champagne, Illinois on November 15th. And, uh, happy early holidays to everyone. Remember, don't buy through a secondary website. Uh, go through our website so you're not getting those, um, heightened ticket prices. And, uh, thank you so much for your support. And we do have new merch items back by popular demand. The hitter hunting club collection. We've also got the hitter bait and tackle tees. Those are new, baby. If you like to rod and reel them, baby.

• 2:54Theo Von?

  Get all these and more, theovonstore.com, the only place to get our merch. Today's guest is an expert in the world of anger. Uh, he's an author, he's a researcher. He's a dean at the College of Arts Humanities and Social Sciences at the University of Wisconsin Green Bay. Uh, we covered a lot of ground and he has some insightful thoughts, uh, just talking about anger in general and then just things that, um, spaces I've had trouble with anger in. I'm very grateful today to have spent time with Dr. Ryan Martin.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I think the thing I was really, I thought was cool is just the, the variety of guests you've had on over the years. I mean, it was like, it was impressive. It's, it's a cool.

• 3:52Theo Von?

  Thanks, man.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a cool group.

• 3:54Theo Von?

  Yeah. I mean, there's been some real smart people, some real perverts that have come on here, some real creeps who've had all kinds.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, good. Well, I hope I'm, I hope I fall in that first category. I hope I'm not one of the perverts or the creeps.

• 4:06Theo Von?

  Yeah. TBD, brother.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  We'll see where we end.

• 4:10Theo Von?

  Dr. Ryan Martin is here from, you're a professor at University of Wisconsin-Green Bay.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yep, that is right.

• 4:16Theo Von?

  And, um, yeah, and we wanted to talk with you today about anger because that's the world you work in, right? Anger?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly. Yeah. So, so I've been, I've been working at the university for the last 19 years. I've been teaching psychology for 18 of those years. I actually just started a year ago as the dean of arts humanities and social sciences. But most of that time I've been researching, and actually even before that, I was researching anger and teaching and writing about anger.

• 4:45Theo Von?

  And what made you get into it? Did you have like some, some things when you was a child that got you really angry?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Some of it was that. Some of it, you know, there's this long story about my family and what was called the Martin temper, right? And referred to mostly the men in my family who had, who were like quick to, quick to get mad.

• 5:04Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Um, starting with my dad, um, but, but not ending with him, right? And so both my brothers, me. Um, and you know, so it was something I was just, it's interesting because I think people assume, um, you know, anger is, um, uh, you know, that it was like hostile or uncomfortable or that we didn't love each other.

• 5:23Theo Von?

  Professional wrestling or something?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. But it wasn't that. It was like, it was a really loving home. Like I get along great with my siblings. We've got really great relationships. Um, all of us have, have chilled out quite a bit since then. Um, but so it's just something I grew up with.

• 5:40Theo Von?

  And it was a theme?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and when I went to college, decided I was interested in studying it more and then, uh, went to grad school and started working with a professor who, who studied it. Um, his name's Dr. Eric Dolan and, and he was researching anger and it just became something I was really passionate about and really interested in.

• 5:58Theo Von?

  So, yeah, it seems like it was kind of a family affair then, kind of. And so obviously that's, uh, maybe that's just a sign out of the gate that it's something for you to, um, to like reflect on and learn about, you know?

• 6:11Theo Von?

  So when people like, uh, cause I get angry all the time. I'm pretty angry a lot, even though maybe sometimes I don't seem like it. But when people say anger, like what do they mean? Like what like, I know it's so basic, but like, what is anger?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. And so I, I think what you just said is really, really important. Like, you know, you said, I'm angry a lot of the time, but people don't realize it. And I think that's because, um, something I think you realize that a lot of people don't is that anger is just the feeling. It's just the emotion. We can express that emotion, that emotion in a gajillion different ways. And some people express that anger by yelling and screaming. Some people express that anger by suppressing it. Some people like me, they, they just do a relatively good job of controlling it, of using it to problem solve and so on. To answer your question, what is it? It's, it's the emotional desire to lash out and it's

• 7:01Speaker 01

  associated with having been wronged, um, having been treated unfairly, or having, um, had your goals blocked. Like I want to do something and, uh, something's interfering with me trying to get that thing done. Right? So it's why, it's why road rage is so common. It's because by definition, you're on your way somewhere, stuff's getting in your way and you start to get mad about it.

• 7:23Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  What, what are your triggers? Like when you say you get angry all the time, what are some of the things that, if I can ask?

• 7:29Theo Von?

  Yeah, no, thanks for asking, Ryan. I, um, for me, I've been noticing recently, a lot of it is unrealistic expectations. So I have a lot of just generally unrealistic expectations that people should know how to do things the way I would like them to be done.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 7:43Theo Von?

  Um, so that's, that out of the gate has been a big one for me.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Would you describe yourself as, um, like kind of type A? Like, do you know what that means? Like type A personality?

• 7:53Theo Von?

  Like blood or whatever?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Um, like a, like it's a personality type of being competitive, um, really aggressive. A lot of successful people are type A. I'm type A, right? And even, um, it's like, I'm really competitive. I'm really aggressive. I'm really, um,

• 8:09Theo Von?

  Type A. Let me see it right here. We have it. Our personality is defined by traits like ambition, drive and competitiveness, which can lead to a high level of success. But type A personalities can also be impatient, hostile, and even have trouble relaxing. Um, yeah, I wouldn't go to hostile. I don't get there, but I can get like, yeah, very impatient, um, have trouble relaxing. Dude, I'll notice I will be urinating, right? And in the middle of urinating, I will flush the toilet. Just because I don't want to, I want to get it off my checklist.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:41Theo Von?

  It's like, it's already done.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  You got a to do list, right? Yeah.

• 8:45Theo Von?

  Right. And so it's still weird because I'll then still urinate into the toilet. But it's like I've already, it's like.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:50Theo Von?

  But so impatience, yeah, is definitely a big one for me.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  You gotta learn to time that just right. So that it's like, just as you're finishing, it's going down. Yeah.

• 8:58Theo Von?

  Yeah. Well, I'm sure that's how I started, but then after a while it was like, well, why do I, you know? But, but I noticed that about myself. I guess a real thing that I noticed that's like, um, that for me was like, wow, I have a lot of impatience.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, the reason I ask is because what you said about like setting unrealistic expectations is that's really common for people who are kind of type A, right? Who have these hot, this competitive trait is that they think, hey, the, the people should, I, I want to accomplish a lot. And me accomplishing a lot relies on other people to get their stuff done and, and taken care of. And if they don't, if they let me down, that slows me down and I don't like it. Right? And so it's, it's, um, this is something I actually deal with relatively often too. I get an idea in my head, that idea is reliant on other people doing their job in a particular way. And I think to myself, they should be able to get that done by whatever day.

• 9:52Theo Von?

  Right.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  And then they don't, you know, and it, and in fairness to them, it's because they've got other stuff they're doing, right?

• 9:58Theo Von?

  Yeah, totally. Yeah. It makes sense that they don't, or that things don't go a certain way. It's just like in certain moments, it's tough for me, you know, um, it's tough for me to notice that. It's like, that's not what I'm thinking. Um, but that for sure is a big trigger for me. I noticed is unrealistic expectations.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:15Theo Von?

  So, and I'm sure I'm not the only person that deals with this type of thing. Uh, yeah. So why, why do people get mad like, or get angry in, in any given moment? Kind of like, is it, is there a real science behind it?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yep. And this is the stuff I study. So.

• 10:29Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  So why people get angry in a particular moment is, um, usually a confluence of like three things right there. So, so there's a trigger and there's the thing that happened, right? And, and I tend to, I encourage people to be really specific about what that thing is, right? So, uh, driving down the street, um, Yellow light in front of you, you think you can make it, car in front of you stops though, right? So now you've got to stop. So that's the trigger, right? Then there is your mood at the time of that trigger. So are you stressed? Are you fatigued? Are you already angry about something? Are you anxious, whatever?

• 11:05Theo Von?

  Right.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Are you, are you too warm or too cold, physically uncomfortable, hungry? All those things make it more likely that you're going to respond with, with anger in that moment. And then there's, there's how you interpret that behavior. And this is where those expectations come in, right? So do I interpret this person as, do I look at this and say, oh, this is going to ruin my day? And now I'm going to be late to work. I'm not going to get done what I need to get done. Do you interpret it as, oh, that idiot, why did they slow down? Right? And so do you label them in that sort of negative way? You totally could have made that, man.

• 11:40Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  You know, or do you interpret it as, hey, it's going to slow me down two minutes. I'll still get to work. Everything's going to be okay, right?

• 11:48Theo Von?

  That third one sounds like the healthiest one.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:50Theo Von?

  But I'll even go sometimes like this bastard.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:53Theo Von?

  Left his house just to fucking strand me here.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Yep. He's just here to ruin my life.

• 11:58Theo Von?

  Like, yeah, or I'll, yeah, sometimes there are, a part of my brain will even go there, you know?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  We, we have these thoughts. There's like, there are a couple of specific types of thoughts that we have when we're faced with that kind of provocation.

• 12:11Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  And one of them is what you just described. It's, it's this inflammatory labeling, right? So I label this guy as a bastard, as an asshole, as a loser, whatever, right? Another one is that demandingness that we talked about. And it's like, you know, God, why can't they just do the job the way they're supposed to? Whatever. You know, the, what we call like making these dictatorial demands. Like things need to be done the way I want them, when, when I want them. There's what we call overgeneralizing. So it's, I don't know if you ever say like, God, this always happens to me. And it's, you know, where you label things in that sort of super exaggerated way. There's catastrophizing, which is when you blow things out of proportion.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  You say, this is going to ruin my day, my Week, my month, my year, right? This is the, my career is over now, right?

• 13:01Theo Von?

  This ruins everything. Christmas is done.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly. Yep. And then there's, the last one is what we call misattributing causation, but it's where you just blame the wrong people for things. You know, you, you, you say, or you decide they did it on purpose, right? What you were saying before about like, this guy's just doing this to fuck with me, right? That's, you're, you're making assumptions about, no, and I know you're not really making those assumptions, but you're making assumptions about why they did a thing.

• 13:27Theo Von?

  Right.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and blown it out. So, all those things come together into like this recipe for why you get mad in a particular moment. And then even separate from that is what we do when we're mad, right? And so for me, every now and then I'll like, just have a moment where I'll like yell, not at someone, but just sort of at the heavens. I might, you know, sometimes pound my fist on the table or something like that when I'm, when I'm really mad. A lot of times though, I like, I'll, I'll sort of simmer inside a little bit. I'll get frustrated. I'll, I'll sort of take a, we do this thing in my office. We've done it for a long time. Where when we're feeling frustrated, we'll say, okay, let's, let's start with an unproductive response.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Meaning, let's just take a minute to vent for a second about how we hate this, right? We'll take like two minutes and then we'll stop and we'll say, okay, now let's problem solve. What, what do we need to do? Right? How do we, how do we work through this?

• 14:23Theo Von?

  Right. Let some of the pressure off.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, exactly.

• 14:26Theo Von?

  When it comes to anger, are there different types? So like, we kind of have looked at like a situation that, and triggers of, and then you end up angry.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:38Theo Von?

  Right? Are there different types of anger? Like, are there?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think anger can come from a lot of different places and people can tend to express it in lots of different ways. I, I tend to think of anger as existing on like a continuum. Meaning, you know, on one end, you've got mild frustration, like, hey, I'm leaving the house, can't find my keys, right? No, it's irritating. I misplaced something. It's a bummer.

• 15:05Theo Von?

  Yeah, my shoes don't fit that good.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Right, and stuff like that. And then there's more intense frustration that that comes from like, hey, I'm now I'm really starting to run late. This dude that got in my way on the road or whatever, right? More intense, all the way up to like extreme anger of I, um, you know, when you see a politician do something that you just hate, or when, you know, your spouse treats you badly, or when your parents treat you badly, or whatever, a friend takes advantage of you, like the real extreme cruel, terrible things, right? And it exists. And so it's everything from like mild frustration to just being livid with rage. That that whole spectrum.

• 15:47Theo Von?

  So there's just kind of a spectrum of anger. It's like small amounts, there's larger, there's things that are really intense.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:53Theo Von?

  Um, I guess in my next thought, like, because anger gives me a sense, sometimes it like an illusionary sense that I have some control over what's going on.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05Theo Von?

  That's but it, but at the same time, I feel out of control, like,

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:11Theo Von?

  Because anger sometimes makes me want to take an action. So that makes me feel like I'm in control.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:15Theo Von?

  But then like, I'll get so like, just sometimes just blinded by being angry that it's like, I know I'm out of control, you know?

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is one of the things that, so I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but have you ever been so angry that you started to cry? Is that something you can think of?

• 16:30Theo Von?

  Um, yeah, not as an adult, but as a child.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. Interesting.

• 16:35Theo Von?

  I've been sad as so, but that I cried, but not anger that I've cried.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  So there are some people, and I discovered this on social media, like there are a lot of people who sometimes when they get really angry, they'll, they'll start to cry. Like that's their sort of go to expression. And the interesting thing is, the people I've talked to hate this about themselves. They, they, they, they will tell me, I can't stand it. It drives me crazy because I'm really mad. And instead of like, I just start, I start to cry. And I think a big part of what's going on there is a pretty intense feeling of of helplessness. It's like, not only am I being treated badly, not only am I being Treated unfairly and having my goals blocked, but there's nothing I can do about it. I'm just stuck.

• 17:19Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Um, and that hurts, you know, and it, it, it doesn't feel good and it feels scary. And so I think for a lot of, for a lot of people, that hopelessness and helplessness lands them in a place where they just start to tear up, like it sort of dovetails with sadness in this very real way. Whereas for people like me, when I'm feeling particularly sort of helpless or hopeless and angry, I tend to focus on, okay, so where are the places where I can make a difference? Where are the places where I can take a little bit of power back, right? And try and, and solve this problem? Can I solve the whole big problem? Maybe not, but maybe I can make a dent, you know, and do what I can do.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  And then, and that at least gives me some, some power to like let things go.

• 18:08Theo Von?

  Yeah, cause that's the biggest thing is the anger feels like it has to be let go.

• 18:14Theo Von?

  That's the thing about anger, like other feeling, like, you know, anger, it feels like you have to, you know,

• 18:20Theo Von?

  like happy, I've never been so happy. I then like went and dressed up like a clown and ran out into the street, you know?

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:26Theo Von?

  But I've been so angry that I'll, I will damn, I will kick a clown if it comes near me, you know, like, so I, you know, I, but you know, there's, there's anger is the one that feels like it has to get out of your body.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:40Theo Von?

  You know, it's got that gremlin and it just literally feels like it needs to leave you somehow.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's because it, that's a really interesting thought. And I think it's because, I think you're right. Anger tends to linger in ways that other emotions don't necessarily linger.

• 18:56Theo Von?

  Yeah, dude, and loiters.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's interesting because, because joy or happiness or excitement like that, that tends to dissipate relatively quickly. More, more quickly than I think people realize, right? Those feelings don't last.

• 19:08Theo Von?

  Yeah. Well, the half life on joy, it's not very long, probably.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:13Theo Von?

  But anger, you can still, like you'll go get in your car, you'll drive somewhere, you'll start chewing the bottom of your, like, I didn't even know, somehow I started chewing on my own teeth one time. I was like, what is even, you know, sometimes you can get so angry that you turn, you turn into a chew toy for yourself almost.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Theo Von?

  You know, like I've just gotten so agitated.

• 19:32Theo Von?

  Yeah, what happens to anger if you, if we don't process it? And then how can you process it? Like, like, what's a legitimate way to process it? That's

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:41Theo Von?

  Realistic.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Well, can we start with some of the illegitimate ways?

• 19:44Theo Von?

  Okay, yes.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I say that because

• 19:46Theo Von?

  No, that's good.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Because it connects to something you just said, which is, um, you know, wanting, because people want it out of their body, right? And it feels like, and so we've been literally for thousands of years, people have been talking about catharsis as a way of, of ridding our body of anger and, and thinking of ourselves almost like pressure cookers. Like, if we don't, if we don't open up the valve and release this anger, we'll blow up, right?

• 20:12Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  And so that's where a lot of these approaches, like if you've ever heard of a rage room or like, you know, people punching a punching bag or hitting the gym or things like that, that's where those approaches come from, is this idea that we gotta, we gotta let that out. And now here's the, here's the thing, and, and people are gonna throw rocks when I say this, but all of the research that we have on catharsis tells us it doesn't work.

• 20:36Theo Von?

  Like rage, actions of getting it out physically?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yep, that it doesn't work. It doesn't, it feels good at the time. And so people think, well, because it feels good, it must be good for me. It must help. But what we find is, is two things. First, over time, the people who use that as their mechanism stay angry and, and get angrier over time. We also find that like right after, like moments after they, they did this study, and this is like 50 years old, right? So we've known for a long time. They did this study where they provoked people in the lab. Then they took half of them and they put them on a, on a bicycle and said, just ride the bike as fast as you can, right? Exercise. The other, the other half had to do this really ridiculous task where they were like

• 21:21Speaker 01

  threading coins with a needle or something like that, something boring and tedious. And then afterwards, they, they assessed to see how angry and aggressive they were. And the people who worked it out on the bike were way more aggressive than the people who, who, you know, did the other task. Because that exercise, it, it doesn't do it. It Keeps, um, it keeps the angry thoughts at the surface. It keeps the, uh, the intensity going, keeps your blood pressure going. What you need to do when you're angry is to actually find ways to calm down and relax.

• 21:54Theo Von?

  Right.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Need to take deep breaths, uh, stuff like that. Rage rooms don't do that. Um, hitting a punching bag doesn't do that.

• 22:02Theo Von?

  Wow. And I guess you feel like it does because again, anger is that act, it's that. I mean, it almost makes you act. It's like, you know, people do things in a fit of anger, in a fit of rage. It's like. It, it's like this energy that's, it's almost like it's always leaving a diving board, you know? So to get that to that even in, it almost feels like inertia or whatever. So to get it to stop, I think is. You know, some of this kind of harrowing, I feel like.

• 22:31Theo Von?

  Rage rooms invite people to engage with their anger, but do they actually work?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:34Theo Von?

  This is a study that came out.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I can't see who wrote it. Marcus Biddle. I don't know Marcus.

• 22:39Theo Von?

  Rage rooms, um, they just had one for women that they opened up.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  I saw this.

• 22:45Theo Von?

  Did you?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:46Theo Von?

  You brought that up?

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I think.

• 22:49Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  I think it's, is it a rage room or do they take them out into the woods?

• 22:53Theo Von?

  If they're taking them into the woods, I'm not getting involved with it.

• 22:58Theo Von?

  I'll let, look, I'll let as many ladies as they want, just go ham inside of a, uh, Bed Bath and Body Works or whatever with a shovel.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:05Theo Von?

  I'll join them. But I, but if we, I don't think we need to like bring anybody into the woods.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably not great.

• 23:13Theo Von?

  Can you see what's going on here? I just wanna, uh.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  I think it was like a New York Times article or something.

• 23:18Theo Von?

  This was an article about rage, women rage, getting it out.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:23Theo Von?

  Well, cause sometimes my rage, it will almost feels like it blinds me.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:27Theo Von?

  You know, it's like, it is so overcoming. Cause if you don't, yeah, so if. So if somebody doesn't process.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I think like probably truly the, the worst thing people can do is that cathartic expression. It's like breaking stuff, exercising. Those are probably the, the bad ways.

• 23:45Theo Von?

  Right. And I guess there's a, it just feels like that because physically you're doing something.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:50Theo Von?

  Like, yeah, obviously I'm taking an. Action.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:52Theo Von?

  There's an actual physical action, then it feels like, oh, that should be helpful.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  And it is what your body wants to do, right? Because, I mean, if we define anger as the emotional desire to lash out, well, then your body wants to lash out. And so if you give it that, you know, it's gonna feel good. That doesn't, again, that doesn't make it good for you.

• 24:11Theo Von?

  Right.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  We could talk about this with other, I mean, you know, I guess some other like bad ways to deal with your anger, but these are obvious to people is like doing drugs, right? Overeating, you know, just calling a friend and screaming at them like that. Like those things are, are, are bad for you. They're mean. Do they, do they make you feel better? Sometimes in the moment, they do for people, right? But that doesn't make it good for them.

• 24:35Theo Von?

  But sometimes I think it feels like doing one of those things is healthier than doing something physically dangerous.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yes. Yep. I think so. You know, I think you're right. Although, I mean, long term, those things can be physically dangerous too, for sure. But, but yeah.

• 24:52Theo Von?

  Right. Yeah. In the moment.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:53Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:54Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  And that's the, that's the worry actually is that, so what we find is that people who use, like if, if their approach to dealing with anger is I'm gonna go punch this pillow, you know, I'm, or I'm gonna go punch this punching bag, or I'm gonna tear phone books in half or whatever.

• 25:13Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Um, what we find is that becomes, it's like, you know, I have, I used to have a soccer coach who would say, practice makes permanent, right? And it's like, the way you practice something is how you'll do things in life. And if you practice your anger that way, well, then someday when you're mad, you're not gonna control yourself and you're gonna, you're gonna hit someone, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna punch someone, you're gonna go after them. And so it ends up having those kinds of long-term harmful consequences.

• 25:39Theo Von?

  Hmm. Damn, dude.

• 25:42Theo Von?

  God, I just.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  People don't like to hear this, by the way. When I, when I talk about this on, and just a couple of weeks ago, I talk about this on, on Instagram and wow, I mean, new research comes out, 150 plus studies. It's a, an article by a guy named Dr. Brad Bushman, who's a huge monster anger researcher and aggression researcher in the field. And he does this study and he looks at 154 studies over time approximately and finds that across all these studies, what does work is when you find ways to, to relax, to decrease arousal in the moment, right? Grounding, deep breaths, all that stuff. What doesn't work is when you, um, uh, when you, you, you raise arousal, right?

• 26:28Theo Von?

  Right.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  You break stuff. Of course, I, I share this on Instagram.

• 26:32Theo Von?

  Nobody wants to hear that.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Nobody wants to hear that.

• 26:34Theo Von?

  Yeah. Well, I think arouse is a great term too to use because that's what's going on.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:39Theo Von?

  You're at a heightened state of arousal.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:42Theo Von?

  And it feels like dangerous arousal.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:45Theo Von?

  But even then I could see maybe if you're going to work out or get it out, that way you're keeping the arousal at a high level.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:50Theo Von?

  Cause you're keeping like, um, at least something inside of you aroused. Um.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Every now and then someone reaches out to me and asks if I'll, um.

• 26:58Theo Von?

  Open a rage room?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  No, if I'll support theirs. Like if I'll go and like do promote their, uh,

• 27:04Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Rage room and I have to tell them, no. Like you obviously haven't paid attention to what I have to say.

• 27:09Theo Von?

  Um, these places took abandoned warehouses and vacant offices and turned them into businesses made for organized chaos. Some were also marketed as an alternative to anger management. Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  The, the one in my town has, uh, makes itself available for gender reveals.

• 27:25Theo Von?

  Oh, really?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  I don't know what, what that looks like.

• 27:27Theo Von?

  I could see that maybe. I'm trying to think if you beat a cushion hard enough, like. You know, a couple of twins pop out of it or something? I don't know. That's wild.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Fill up a printer with either blue or pink toner.

• 27:40Theo Von?

  Oh, there you go.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  You trash it till it spills all over.

• 27:44Theo Von?

  Um, yeah, I don't know if that would be, I wonder if the rage room, a lot of them I've seen, well, a lot of rooms. I noticed this happened too. There was a business like, uh, de-evolution. Where a lot of escape rooms went under.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:01Theo Von?

  And then they turned into rage rooms.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 28:04Theo Von?

  And then they just went out of business completely and just turned into one bedroom apartments that have like a trap door in them or whatever. Um, dude, I remember we, there used to be a place in LA downtown. They'd have a couple, it was like a Vietnamese establishment. And you would put on like a dog bite suit and these guys would literally beat the smack out of you for like 80 bucks for 15 or 20 minutes.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Wow. My brother and I used to play that game when we were kids, actually.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  We really would. We would, we played this game where we would pile up a bunch of like, we, we had, we were a sports family, right? So we had like all sorts of gear. We'd pile all this gear in the middle of the room and we'd draft items. Like we'd each take a thing and then you'd put it on and then we, we had these big plastic tinker toys and we just beat the crap out of each other. Yeah. So it was great.

• 28:46Theo Von?

  May, yeah.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  He's a lot older than me though, so I usually lost.

• 28:48Theo Von?

  Well, it sounds like he was, it seems very unfair that he would do that.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Theo Von?

  If he was a lot older, like how old, like 12 years older?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Uh, just five.

• 28:55Theo Von?

  Oh, that's kind of fair. Even that's getting a little outside of the range of able to beat my brother age.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, agreed. You should tell him that. We'll, we'll let him know.

• 29:04Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Here's one right here. The rage room.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 29:07Theo Von?

  Oh, somebody hit a, uh.

• 29:12Theo Von?

  Maybe they did hit an ink toner.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:15Theo Von?

  A toner cartridge. Oh, there's something that had a dangerous gas in it. They said nerve gas. Yep. That's what you do.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  You gotta be careful.

• 29:22Theo Von?

  Yeah, you gotta be careful. Yeah, raid, I guess it's, I don't know if I've ever even been to one. I don't know if it was something that really excited me. Um, so what would be healthy ways to process anger? I mean, some of them seem kind of obvious. They don't seem that much fun.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, no, that's true. You know, I think there's, there's two ways of thinking about this. Like, the first way is to think about, okay, when I am angry, what do I do to deal with that anger? Right? And that's where that study I was just telling you about, 154 articles that essentially find you gotta, you gotta find ways to de-escalate, right? So what are, what are those different mechanisms? And there are different ones for different people. But it's, it's the, the deep breathing, it's mindful walking. Um, it is, you go for a walk and you just think about your thoughts and try and relax. You think about nature, or you think about whatever's going on. Cool study just came out, by the way, that found that, um, college students who go for walks, um, versus college students who go for walks

• 30:21Speaker 01

  and birdwatch, that the birdwatching is actually better for their mental health than just going for walks.

• 30:28Theo Von?

  Really?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  And, and

• 30:29Theo Von?

  It's kind of peeping Tom and on nature, I feel like.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  I mean, it's Yeah, no, you're right. It's voyeuristic. It's like, look, this bird's just trying to live its life.

• 30:37Theo Von?

  I know.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Here I am. Yeah.

• 30:39Theo Von?

  Look at this bird just feeding his children. You're sitting there just

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:42Theo Von?

  Googing in the windows. Yeah, it's kind of crazy, but

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Get out of that bird's business.

• 30:46Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  But I think what's happening is, is that the, it forces people to get out of their head, right? And so it doesn't have to be birds. If you wanna, if you wanna look at something else.

• 30:57Theo Von?

  Right.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  If you feel more comfortable leaving those birds be.

• 30:59Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  You can look at, you can just be like, I'm gonna identify leaves.

• 31:03Theo Von?

  Okay. Like, yeah, I'm just gonna absorb something out here.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's because then you're, it gets you out of your head to look at the thing and focus on the thing. And so, like, those kinds of de-escalation approaches are, are some of the best things to do. The truth is, though, there's, there's like infinite things you can do with your anger. And so sometimes, you know, you can, you can channel it into problem solving. You can say, I'm gonna, because ultimately, what, what anger gives you is energy, right? I mean, it, it

• 31:30Theo Von?

  Right.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  It gives you energy to, to, um, confront the injustice. And so, you know, if, if you experience Something that is truly unfair and you want to do something about it. Well, there's lots of things you can do, right? You can, you can protest, you can write letters to the editor, you can donate money, you can, you can, you know, join all these causes to try and solve those problems.

• 31:51Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  That's a really good, healthy way to, to deal with your anger.

• 31:55Theo Von?

  You can hire one of those planes to write something in the sky.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 31:58Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 31:59Theo Von?

  Stop smoking, love mom, it says on it.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, nice.

• 32:03Theo Von?

  I know, my mom wanted me to stop.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Is that how she got you to stop? She rented a plane? Nice.

• 32:07Theo Von?

  She did one year. Pretty sweet, ever kind of crazy.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  That's really kind, yeah.

• 32:12Theo Von?

  But yeah, put it so you can put your anger into something.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:15Theo Von?

  Is that legit, is that a real thing you can do? Like, put that in? Well, I guess you already have, are activated.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, you know, I, and this is the example I, I use. I came home, so when my kids were young, you know, when your, when your kids are young, like, the only thing in the world you want is a little bit of time to yourself, right? At the house. And so I came home from, from work one day, and I think I, I knew in my head I had like 20 minutes before everybody else got home, that I was just alone, right? And I thought, I'm just, I'm gonna live my best life for 20 minutes, you know? And, and then I, I checked the mail and there was like a flyer in there.

• 32:50Theo Von?

  I feel you, dude. Guys have the worst best lives. It's like, I'm gonna live it up, dude. And I'll just eat like, I'll just like find an old can of peaches or something and open them and just try one.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Just like a pudding cup.

• 33:03Theo Von?

  And then your wife comes in and you're like, oh, she's like, this is so sad.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, for 20 minutes, I had this pudding cup.

• 33:10Theo Von?

  But I'm gonna check this mail while everybody's just letting me be. I feel you, bro.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Exactly, so. So I, I checked the mail and there was like a flyer in there for some political candidate who was just saying like nasty stuff about this. I got so mad, so I spent that 20 minutes. I, I sent an email to the guy I didn't like saying that was BS, what's wrong with you? I sent another email to the guy I did like and said like, hey, thanks. And then I donated money to the guy I, I was supporting. And so by the time I was done, family's home, you know?

• 33:43Theo Von?

  Right.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  And, but like, that's what, like, I was exhausted when I came home, but anger gave me the energy to do something. Like, now did I solve all the world's problems? No. But, but like, I did something and it felt better afterwards to do that.

• 33:57Theo Von?

  Right. And something that's more productive than just like, yeah, um, yeah, just like getting some spray paint and just tagging up a. Yeah, writing profanity on a wall or doing

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:07Theo Von?

  I'm trying to think of, or anything, anything that could be negative. Right. So yeah, because it was the male that made you negative. So then you're like, what am I going to do with it now?

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:15Theo Von?

  But those are, those are like safe ways. Nobody's going to get hurt.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. Yep.

• 34:20Theo Von?

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• 35:03Theo Von?

  Steve is a long-term sexual recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to do the same. Steve is an amazing person and he is a close friend of mine. I mean that. Valor Recovery helps men to develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life. Their coaches are in long-term recovery and will be your partner, mentor, and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors. To learn more about Valor Recovery, please visit them at www dot Valor Recovery Coaching dot com

• 35:46Theo Von?

  or email them at admin at Valor Recovery Coaching dot com. Thank you. So is, when anger shows up in us, what is it a warning us of?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of it. So this is true of all emotions that when we,

• 36:06Speaker 01

  when we feel them, it's our, one of our brains ways of like providing us information, right? So when you're scared, that's your brains, one of your brains ways of, of saying, hey, there's a, there's a threat, right? There's danger around. When you're sad, it means you've lost something and it's your brain's way of telling you that. Anger is one of your brain's ways of telling you that someone's treating you badly, that you've experienced this injustice and that, that you gotta do something about it. And then when your fight or flight system kicks in, that's your brain's way of saying, like giving you the energy to, to deal with that. And so one of the best ways to, to handle anger is to channel that energy into solving whatever that problem is.

• 36:48Theo Von?

  Something positive.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:50Theo Von?

  It's, yeah, I feel like, but if you, some of it could go, cause what if you tell someone like, yeah, you should get into quilting or doing something that's progress, you know, and then they just quilt like a, you know, advertisement for Saw 2 or whatever, cause that's how angry they are, you know? Like, that would be my biggest, but I guess that would be like at least a nice piece of art and they could sell.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:11Theo Von?

  So yeah, I guess that does kinda make sense.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  I mean, I mean, so I love the, the Saw 2 quilt idea. Uh, makes me wonder if that exists, but uh, so.

• 37:19Theo Von?

  Probably.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but we should, uh, but I mean, channeling your anger into art is a, is a thing people do, right? I mean, that's a, a good, healthy way. I mean, poetry, other forms of writing, art.

• 37:33Theo Von?

  It's so hard though.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:35Theo Von?

  It's so hard when I close my car door and I'm like,

• 37:41Theo Von?

  to then want to draw something.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:45Theo Von?

  Unless I just write how I feel and just show it to her, like, but it's so hard. Like, I guess that's the thing. It's like, how do you get? Over that, like, how do you get over, like, convert one moment into another so that you can, because that's really the key, huh?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yep. Well, and I think this is like what it, what it takes to be, and ultimately, like, what I want and why I'm on social media and why, why I write things is because I want people to have sort of a healthier relationship with their emotions. And sometimes what that takes is like a de-escalation in the moment so that you can still hang on to the, at least the thoughts of anger in a way that is healthy, that allows you to, to channel them into something positive, right? Because the truth is, like, even those emails that I was talking about, I couldn't write those if I was in such a fit of rage that I wasn't making any sense, right? You've got to come down a little bit.

• 38:39Theo Von?

  Yeah, even to get correct punctuation, you have to be almost like at a four.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:43Theo Von?

  If at a nine, it's all caps.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:46Theo Von?

  It is dangerous emojis that you can get off, you have a VPN.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  This is one of the, the things that I think actually has made electronic communication kind of dangerous for people. I, I used to have a professor who, when I was in college, who said, hey, when, when you get an exam back, I don't want you to come talk to me about it for 24 hours. Said, I just want you to calm, like, just take some time to think about it, relax. You're, you're emoting too strongly in that first 24 hours, take some time. But now, and that was easier to do back then because, you know, you weren't going to see him for a couple of days anyways. You didn't have access to him the way you do now via email or, or whatever. Now, uh, you know, I think when people get mad, it's so easy to fire off a quick response, to fire off an email, to fire off a tweet or

• 39:31Speaker 01

  a text or whatever, um, that it, people can do things when they're feeling most enraged or when they're feeling most upset.

• 39:39Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. And then it's really made it almost tougher in person because you don't have, like, when you're talking to somebody, you can't just, like, set them down for two or three minutes while you think about your answer.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:51Theo Von?

  And pee again or whatever you do.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:53Theo Von?

  Um, or get you a little, you know, get you a little dessert or something. But, um, yeah, that, it's almost gets like, We want to communicate less in person in a way because online communication is kind of easier.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it is. I mean, I think, I think it is for a couple of reasons. One is you do, and it is in some good ways, right? You have more time to think about what you want to say, and that's probably a good thing. But it's also easier in some bad ways in that you don't really, like, right now, you and I are talking to each other, and everything I'm seeing, I can see how you're responding to it in your face, right? But if you and I were communicating over text, I have no idea how what I'm saying is impacting you. And so it's easier for me, it might be easier in that context to say something cruel, or, or hurtful, or...

• 40:41Theo Von?

  Hopeful, even.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, because I don't have, I'm not confronted with what it did to you when, when you got the message.

• 40:49Theo Von?

  So I wonder what that does to us as people over time, right? When they're, because it used to be, like, if you wanted to, well, I guess you could write a letter, but, but it used, yeah, you had to, there was, it used to be probably more often you had to do face to face.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:06Theo Von?

  More often.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:08Theo Von?

  And so you had to get the real reactions, you had to get the real feelings of what was going on. Whereas if you can just message it, it's still scary, but it's not, it doesn't, it must affect us differently emotionally over time. I wonder if that's valuable or not. Is this making any sense?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think, I mean, I think what happens is a couple things. One, it's, it's, we get out of practice, right? I mean, you get out of practice interacting with people, and, and it becomes really easy to forget how what you're saying is, is impacting them in a very real and meaningful way, and how you may have hurt their feelings, or whatever.

• 41:45Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:47Theo Von?

  What about some other options for, like, the healthy processing of anger?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Well, so, yeah, that's one of the things we didn't get to is, is, you can think about, like, what we've been talking about is how you handle your anger once you're feeling it. What we haven't talked about yet is how you can kind of create a life where you are more, where you're managing it better in advance, right? Meaning...

• 42:10Theo Von?

  Yeah, that's what I need.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, if you think about that model I described before, right? You've got your, your trigger, you've got your mood at the time of the trigger and you've got your interpretation. Well, you can intervene in any of those places, right? So you can, like, we don't have control of every trigger we experience, but there are some we invite into our lives, right? Either on purpose or on accident.

• 42:34Theo Von?

  Tiffany or whoever you're thinking about or anybody specific it could be.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Sure. I mean, even, even things like, the example I always use is like, so I, I used to love scary movies. When I was growing up, I loved them. At a certain point, I realized, you know what? These are having a pretty negative effect on me, right? I'm staying up too late afterwards, I'm getting scared, whatever. So I started watching them less often, right? That's, we can do that with provocations. We can say, I'm not going to watch the news as often as I used to. I'm not going to watch sports as often as I used to because it's getting to me in ways that aren't good for me.

• 43:05Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  We can even say, you know, I'm going to change my commute up so that I don't find myself in traffic as often as I, I once did. I don't know if that's possible in Nashville, but.

• 43:16Theo Von?

  Right. But even if it's longer, it's like, I'm still going to change it up. So I'm just not, it's because of the traffic. That's a good point. Because sometimes though, we will recognize the things that agitate us and still continue to do them.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:28Theo Von?

  What is that called?

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if that has a name actually, but.

• 43:32Theo Von?

  But you know what I'm talking about?

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, when people continue to sort of walk into those, those situations that, that leave them feeling frustrated.

• 43:41Theo Von?

  Yeah. It's like they, you want the agitation, like you know it's going to bother you. So then you know you're going to be able to be angry. Your anger almost becomes an addiction in a way.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  When, and the, the worst thing that can happen there sometimes is sometimes we so anticipate that a situation is going to go poorly.

• 43:58Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  That we actually bring it out of that situation. Like we, you know, we're, we're going to Thanksgiving dinner and we know our uncle is going to be racist or whatever. And so, and so we go there and we end up sort of, first of all, we're, we're hostile to them in advance in a way that it actually brings out their hostility back to us. And then also we, we sort of unintentionally. Like goat them into things.

• 44:22Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  And we bring it out.

• 44:23Theo Von?

  Pass the black beans to them and then lose it on them for no reason or something, you know?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:27Theo Von?

  Like, and then it do, and it's just like, we're just waiting in our head.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 44:31Theo Von?

  You know, or we'll ask for the brown rice and they'll look at us a certain way and they just.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 44:35Theo Von?

  They can't handle, yeah, it's like, and then it's almost like, yeah, it's like, a lot of times you set things up, you know how they're gonna be. God, that's such an instance, man. What do you do in that instance? Cause that's a huge one, I think.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's, it's about what I, what I like to call like proactive emotion management, right? So it's, it's saying, okay, I'm anticipating that this situation is going to go badly. What are some things that I can do now to prevent it from going the way I think it could go?

• 45:03Theo Von?

  Right.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  And so that might be, hey, let's, let's give people the benefit of the doubt, right? That might be going into the situation and saying, um, you know, let's, let's not assume that they're gonna do and say the worst thing. Let's go into that situation, um, maybe I minimize my contact with them. Yeah, it's Thanksgiving, but I don't have to be in the same room with this person the entire night. And I can, I can minimize how often I talk to them. Maybe it's you and your, your partner, who you're at the event with. You, you have like a, like a safe word, right? When you're getting frustrated, that, that some, some signal that you can do to send them a message saying like, hey, get me out of this, right? I mean, there's, there's all these things we can do. It, it's just, we have to be thoughtful about it in advance. And I think a lot of times we're not thoughtful about it.

• 45:46Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'll struggle. I know sometimes like if I know, like, sometimes I can cut myself off and I'd be like, hey, go introduce yourself in the beginning instead of keeping an air where it's like, you have something in your head.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:00Theo Von?

  Cause I'm in, I'm in recovery and so I'll have a lot of things like, I'll build a world in my head that's not really going on in the world around me.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:08Theo Von?

  And so, uh, so sometimes some of those things I can cut off, like, hey, go, go say, hey, how's things going?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:14Theo Von?

  That way you've already created the first space of communication. It's been cool. Everything's good. Then if they do say, say something, sometimes that you, if you're expecting somebody to say a certain thing, it doesn't really land on you the same way.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:26Theo Von?

  Um, a lot of times for me, it is, I'll, I'll keep myself away from people if. I know I'm agitated. So some, so that's one of the things I think you said of just being able to prepare a little bit. But then it's like, sometimes it's like that isolation builds on my own agitation because I'm always just kind of in my own world process and stuff.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, that's really interesting that like, you know, we often do sort of create this world that that may or may not be realistic. And we assume, um, you know, people are going to be a certain way. They're going to do a certain thing or their thinking. I like, we do a lot of mind reading, you know, and we assume people think the way we think they think. And, um, and then.

• 47:07Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what you just said about going up and introducing yourself or saying hi or whatever, that's a, that's really interesting because what it does is it, it, it, it gives you the opportunity to realize that what you're thinking isn't accurate.

• 47:20Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's funny you say that because yeah, one thing, one thing we have learned a lot in recovery is just like, um, not believe in our brain.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:26Theo Von?

  That our perception of things is off.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:28Theo Von?

  You know?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  And that's really important. And it's like, you want to trust yourself, but you also have to leave some room to say, you know what? Hey, my understanding of the situation could be wrong.

• 47:37Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  And, and when I meet people, um, I've got to, I've got to let them, I mean, yeah, I can go in and I can be cautious. Right? That's one thing, but I shouldn't assume that my, my understanding of them is a thousand percent accurate.

• 47:51Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. And the more isolate and stuff, the more that bad perception builds.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:57Theo Von?

  That's what's fascinating to me. It's like it grows its own muscles.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that is, I think if there's a thing that I find sort of most dangerous or worrisome about modern day, America or the world is the degree to which we are isolating ourselves, especially from people that we might disagree with. And the degree to which we're not having like real conversations with people, um, that where we can get an opportunity to, to learn how they think. Right? We, we make assumptions about what other people are doing and saying in those, and then we, we react to those assumptions more than we react to what's actually happening.

• 48:38Theo Von?

  Yeah, it is interesting how much we've become kind of puppetable by like, I don't know if I just want to say mainstream media, but by,

• 48:49Theo Von?

  Bigger stories, maybe that we didn't write ourselves, kind of.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:53Theo Von?

  You know?

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Well, and you know, when you, when you think about what like the social media algorithms do and how we end up seeing the content that we agree with more regularly. We interact with people who think like us more regularly, right? We, we just are seeing that we're connected, I put that sort of in quotes, but connected to more people than ever before, but not really because one, we're only seeing a very specific sliver of their lives and we're not having this, we're not necessarily engaging with people who are different from us very regularly.

• 49:29Theo Von?

  I mean, do you guys notice that we're any angrier now than we were in the past?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, this, this is, I wish we could go back in time and like have a, some sort of anger thermometer, right? That could measure anger over time because this is the question that I think everybody wants to know the answer to is are we angrier now than we used to be? And in so many ways, it sure seems like we are, right? Because we see tons of examples of it. We see so much rage. The, the, I think the parts that we don't have answers to is, one is, is a lot of that rage just more visible now than it used to be, right? Are we seeing it more now because of social media, right? So we get, we get more stuff captured on video than we ever did. And that might be what's happening, that those things were happening before, we just didn't know.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  It could also be, you know, that, that particular expression styles have become normalized, right? So yelling, screaming, those things are like hostility, those things are becoming more common. Yeah. And so maybe that anger was there, but, but those outward expressions are much more common now. I think there is some, some reason to think we're angrier now than we used to be. I mean, I, I mean, I think like we're social, the stuff we just were saying about social media is definitely bringing out.

• 50:49Theo Von?

  With the illusion, I think there was, used to be more of, I think like tradition we had, it felt like there was more of a sense of togetherness, maybe. I wonder if those things left people feeling more complete or safer in their country. I do start to notice that there starts to feel a little bit of like.

• 51:13Theo Von?

  What could happen in 15 years as opposed to that was never a thought when I was a kid. It was always like, I feel like we're going to be okay here.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:21Theo Von?

  Um, so I wonder if some of that like just subconsciously starts to boil inside of you.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I absolutely think so. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we're dealing with, and I think a lot of this is post pandemic, but not just post pandemic is, you know, so anger dovetails pretty closely with anxiety, right? Um, that, that these two emotions are pretty similar. They actually feel pretty similar physiologically. So there's a, there's a lot of overlap there. And I, I think it's fair to say that Americans are, uh, and probably worldwide, people are more anxious now about the future than they have been for a very long time. Right?

• 51:56Theo Von?

  Okay, yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  And that anxiety, it, it comes from a place of uncertainty about, um, you know, safety and if financial security and all, all these things.

• 52:08Theo Von?

  Even having jobs. I mean, as they say, like AI is going to, every day you hear AI is going to take your job, you know, and the guy's like, I'm unemployed and they're like, it'll take that job. You're like, Jesus, I can't even be unemployed anymore. But I think there is a little bit of fear, even somebody who's just sitting on their couch, watching, you know, eating Fritos and just watching, uh, you know, uh, TV shows all day that they're, even that job's going to be taken. And they're like, well, I'm going to lose this.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that there is this, all of this uncertainty is leading to people. And because I think in some ways that part of what happens is it leads to some competitiveness. It leads to like, hey, look, the, the pie is getting smaller that we all share. And I'm worried that I'm not going to have enough, right? And I'm not going to be able to make ends meet. And all of that leads to, you know, frustration with your, your fellow humans.

• 52:59Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. Cause your perspective is suddenly I've got to take care of myself. Instead of like, we have to take care of each other.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:06Theo Von?

  And that gets a little creepy.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:08Theo Von?

  What do we do with pervasive anger at society and ideology situation out of control?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Uh, I think that's another thing that happened during, uh, during the pandemic is that I think, um, People, I think a lot of people in the United States and probably globally really started to feel like they couldn't trust each other.

• 53:29Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  And, and I think that happened in lots of ways, right? It was sort of a sense of, hey, people, people aren't gonna, they're more interested in themselves than they are in taking care of each other, right? They won't, you know, do X, Y, or Z. They won't wear masks. They won't open things up. They're not worried about my finances. They're not, you know, they're, they're only worried about their own thing. And I think that, that scared people and, and led to a lot of animosity amongst people.

• 53:57Theo Von?

  When I think also people didn't know if their government cared anymore.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:01Theo Von?

  Which was even like, which was probably similar.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:04Theo Von?

  In the sense that we're like, can I trust my government? Can I trust like, um, you know, you see stories like the opioid epidemic? And you're like, the fact that the family didn't even go to jail or face any time and the amount of, you know, uh, the amount of pain that, that caused so many families, not to mention deaths.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:30Theo Von?

  But I think, you know, things like that, it makes you start to question. So if you don't even think, you know, if you can, I mean, you can always kind of question your government. I think that that's safe and question society and what's going on. It's good to think, um, curiously, but I feel like that was probably another thing that happened is people were like, I don't know. We, every commercial is about drugs. Like, it's just like, who can I, where can I get valid information and who can I trust?

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:54Theo Von?

  And it probably became scary. You're like, I have to start with myself.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Yep. And, and I think that, that sort of uncertainty leads to feelings of frustration and leads to, and, and you know, I think part of what happened too is that for some people, they felt like, well, the answers here are obvious.

• 55:13Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  And so why don't other people see how obvious these answers are? And, and I, and I don't know that the answers were necessarily obvious, but, but I think that people felt like, why can't people just do whatever? And then we can get through this.

• 55:26Theo Von?

  Right.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  And when other people.

• 55:27Theo Von?

  You mean during COVID, you mean?

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, during COVID and then, yeah.

• 55:31Theo Von?

  Yeah, I think people, and people had just also just real different views of it. It was like in California, things were very locked down. And then here, um, things were more open.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:40Theo Von?

  You know, and it was like, what's the best way to do this? It was hard to learn.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Even, I mean, you know, I live in, in Green Bay and we've got, you know, there's the, there's the Green Bay Public Schools and there's other public school districts that are like connected, but they're all doing different things. And so there's a sense of, well, here we're doing this. Five miles away, they're doing something different. Why? You know, what, what's going on? And so then there's anger and frustration amongst the people who live in those communities. And then people saying, well, I'm going to take my kids and send them to that school because they're doing this or I'm going to, you know? And, and so all of these things started to, to, to bubble up and lead to frustration.

• 56:19Theo Von?

  Yeah, a lot of frustration.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:21Theo Von?

  And it really, I know how to do it. People wanted to, yeah, the second you don't trust or believe that your society that's built kind of has a, is looking out for you. Or you can trust it, then it really, you gotta go back to yourself.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Well, and then, I mean, imagine if it, if we're not talking about society, we're just talking about a family, right? And what, and you as like a kid in a family realize, wow, the other people in this family aren't necessarily going to do the things that are best for me.

• 56:50Theo Von?

  Right.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  It becomes real hard to, to continue to feel good about that and over time, right? People have to earn that trust back. And I think we're right now in a phase where people haven't, where people don't feel like anyone's earning that trust back. They're just like, we still don't trust each other. They don't have my best interests in mind. They don't care about the same things as me. What am I going to do? How are we going to get through this? And I don't think anybody's got any answers to that.

• 57:15Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, I wonder if it's one of those things that just takes time or, I mean, that's always the thing.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think you're right. I mean, I think, I think time is going to be part of it. I hope that, I hope that there are things we can rally around.

• 57:31Theo Von?

  Humor is usually a good one.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 57:34Theo Von?

  I know they're trying to put out like.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  I mean, you would say that you're a comedian.

• 57:37Theo Von?

  That's probably true. I would hope to say it, huh? They just put out, they just had a new show, Tires on Netflix, which is really crazy.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  I've seen an ad for it. I haven't watched it yet.

• 57:46Theo Von?

  It's like different than a lot of stuff they put on there. It's just like, it seems like it's from like, totally like the eighties or something, you know? It's just kind of like, just humor without like judging that every person in the, in the show has to have certain like.

• 58:04Theo Von?

  But like, you're just letting people be, they could be characters. Like you could have a character, you're like, oh, that guy's hilarious, but I don't agree with him.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 58:12Theo Von?

  Whereas to be like, oh, that guy, I'm not even gonna see if he is hilarious because I don't agree with the character.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:19Theo Von?

  And it's like, dude, it's okay. You know, so like, just things being more, um, possible or just open their brains to like, okay, a character could believe differently than I do.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Right. Yep.

• 58:32Theo Von?

  Right? Cause I think for a while, it's been like, I don't even want my characters.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:37Theo Von?

  To have any different views than I do. That's kind of crazy.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:41Theo Von?

  When you think about that.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there is.

• 58:43Theo Von?

  I'm drowning, but I only want a superhero to show up if he feels exactly the same way I do.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it's tough. I mean, like, you know, I think one of the tricky things we've had to deal with is that there are, I mean, there are opinions that we, people can like, sort of rally around. There are opinions that people can, um, like disagree with. And in an understandable, reasonable way, right? Reasonable disagreements. But then so often, those disagreements are, are about like real scary stuff. It's not, it's not me disagreeing about like, hey, is Cats a good movie? I don't know why I picked Cats. I think it's because my son loved the movie Cats.

• 59:26Theo Von?

  Oh, he did? I haven't seen it, I don't think.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Okay. I'm not gonna recommend it.

• 59:30Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's my, that's, that's my advice to you. That's, if you walk away with one thing from this episode, is that you probably shouldn't see Cats.

• 59:40Theo Von?

  Fair.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah. Um.

• 59:42Theo Von?

  Um.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I mean, so it's one thing to like disagree about that, right? Um, totally different if we're talking about things that like really do have a,

• 59:54Speaker 01

  like have real consequences for people.

• 59:56Theo Von?

  Oh, for sure.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  You know, like there's, there, there are some opinions that we can just agree to disagree. And then there's other stuff that is like, no, this is like, this is real personal.

• 1:00:06Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, we didn't used to, people didn't used to care about it that much, though.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:11Theo Von?

  They did, I think.

• 1:00:14Theo Von?

  It is interesting how mu- like we used to never talk about politics that much. You would kinda say maybe who you were gonna vote for and kinda sometimes you give a couple lines about it. But you never, I feel like, would be like, oh, screw you for voting for that. Like it would never, even the thought would never come into your head, I feel like.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does feel like it's taken center stage and I wonder how much of that is, is, I mean, it's probably, a lot of it is exacerbated by social media. I suspect the 24 hour news cycle also led to that too, right?

• 1:00:44Theo Von?

  Ruined a lot of stuff. That create a lot of anger.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep.

• 1:00:46Theo Von?

  I mean, I think we used to be able to take a day off, half the day off.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:00:50Theo Von?

  But now they're like, oh, you need a little more anger.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, intentionally so. I mean, it's like, so there's, there's plenty of research out there that says that, you know, content, news, or anything else that makes people angry or scared is far more likely to go viral than, than other stuff, right? And so, so politicians know that and just purely from a, from a financial perspective, if you put an ad out that makes people mad, it's gonna get more clicks, it's gonna get, I mean, it, you, you double the value essentially of that ad by making people mad with it, right?

• 1:01:25Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  So there are people who are benefiting financially from our rage. And that's not just true with politicians, that's true with, with, you know, Fox News, CNN, et cetera. They, they wanna make people mad.

• 1:01:37Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  They're going, yeah.

• 1:01:38Theo Von?

  Yeah, instead of just having an article, they'll, they'll reframe the title so it has an enemy.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep.

• 1:01:43Theo Von?

  That's pretty crazy. Dealing with anxiety and stress in the age of the 24/7 news cycle.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:01:49Theo Von?

  Let me see, whether it's the coronavirus, political divisiveness, threats of terrorism, or mass shootings,

• 1:01:55Theo Von?

  you might not be immediately affected by these issues, but constant exposure to the 24 hour news and social media, which is often heavily skewed towards the negative, can adversely influence your mental health and overall well-being. More than 70% of Americans believe the media blows things out of proportion, which may seem harmless, but it could lead to increased stress and anxiety. Wow, so, but the tough part is if we're addicted to it, though.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Right. Yep.

• 1:02:18Theo Von?

  That's the tough part is that we're if we're addicted to it.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's because, I mean, you know, people are drawn to this thing that ultimately causes them harm.

• 1:02:28Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:02:29Theo Von?

  And what is that? Is that always been? I mean, has it just been since the apple and the Garden of Eden, you know?

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  I mean, information is, I mean, people crave information, right? I mean, that's another emotion that I like to talk about sometimes is curiosity, right? And people, people do crave information. It makes them feel good about themselves, especially if they can share it with other people. It's like a form of social currency. Um, and so, and so knowing things is, you know, better than not knowing things. And so people are drawn to, to media. And then when that media makes them mad, they're more likely actually to share it with other people. They're more likely because it, it, it gets the reaction they want, right?

• 1:03:10Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  So if I came in here and told you just some sort of arbitrary fact, you'd be like, ah, that's great. But if I came in here and told you something that made you really mad, now I'm getting a reaction.

• 1:03:19Theo Von?

  I'd be like, what the heck?

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Theo Von?

  What are we gonna do about it?

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:03:23Theo Von?

  It's pretty crazy.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  And then we problem solve.

• 1:03:25Theo Von?

  So we've really just, we've kind of like death hacked ourself in a way, like there's life hacks and then I feel like there's death hacks. And I feel like sometimes the algorithm does that, you know, or um, the possibility to always have it at your fingertips. Because I'll find if I'd rather just chill or meditate, or if I'd rather go find something to make me angry.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:44Theo Von?

  I sometimes would like to find something to make me angry.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Because, I mean, it does, I think for some people, that anger feels powerful, right? I mean, it's like, there's a sense, and we talked earlier about it sometimes feeling helpless, but there's a, there's a, there's a piece of like the, the heart rate increase, the, the blood pressure increase, the muscle tension that leads to these feelings of, of excitement.

• 1:04:08Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, it feels like it activates you.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 1:04:11Theo Von?

  Is there a such thing as like a healthy anger? And then what is the difference between like a healthy anger and a rage?

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Theo Von?

  Is that noticeable?

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what I would say is that when it comes to anger, I, I tend to think of all emotions as not having, um, they aren't. Positive or negative on their own. They're just information systems, right? Um, and it's, it's good to feel things. Um, in fact, if I had a wish for people, it would be that they felt the whole sort of range of emotions, right? That that's what would be good for them, but in a nuanced way, meaning that they could evaluate whether or not this thing is that they're feeling is good for them or bad for them in the, in a particular context. So when I think about healthy versus unhealthy anger, a big piece of it is what is it doing for me or to me? Right? So am I, uh, what kind of consequences am I experiencing?

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  For some people, those consequences can be physical, right? They can have like heart problems or muscle tension or chronic headaches or things like that. For some people, um, those consequences are like relationships. They get in a lot of verbal and physical fights. Online fights. For some people, those consequences are, um, uh, property damage. They break stuff.

• 1:05:26Theo Von?

  Oh, yes. Steal stuff.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Yep. Um, so I mean, sometimes though, it's like other negative emotions. It's like I get mad and then afterwards I feel guilty about something I said. And so I feel real sad later, or I get scared that, you know, my, my partner's going to leave me or, or I'm going to get in trouble. Um, and so they have these other negative emotions. Talk about people like.

• 1:05:46Theo Von?

  That's me. I'll get upset and then I will, I'll apologize quickly usually. But I, when I get into moments of really being really upset, it's hard for me to manage myself.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then do you end up feeling sort of like guilty about it?

• 1:05:59Theo Von?

  Yeah, I feel remorseful. I'm usually good at being able to apologize pretty quickly.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 1:06:03Theo Von?

  Being able to notice my space in it. But, but the fact that it happens at all, you know, is like, is something that has been uncomfortable for me, I think.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that.

• 1:06:17Theo Von?

  I didn't mean to interrupt you there.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  No, that's all right. Um, yeah, I think that's, you know. It connects to like for a lot of people, their anger leads to things like substance abuse. It leads to overeating. It leads to even, I mean, you know, substance abuse defined broadly, like alcohol, nicotine included, right?

• 1:06:34Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  People, people find ways of coping with their anger because they don't have better ways. And so they end up turning to, to drugs or alcohol.

• 1:06:43Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  And, and you know, and that's, uh, that, you know, that ends up having consequences and yeah.

• 1:06:51Theo Von?

  Was there more you want to say, sorry?

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  No, it's, I mean, I think that sort of covers it, but I think, I think the big thing is there are lots and lots of consequences to unhealthy anger, right? There's also lots of good things we can do with it, right? There's lots of ways that we can, we can turn our anger into those positive ways. And so when, when back to when people think about, okay, what, how is, what's the impact of this on me? Um, and on those people around me is to really sort of evaluate what, what the outcome is.

• 1:07:20Theo Von?

  Right. So if you can take a moment to evaluate what the outcome's gonna be.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:23Theo Von?

  Like what's gonna happen? Right now I'm upset. So if I act on it, then I'm gonna have to apologize later. I'm gonna be probably, then I'm gonna be bummed out at myself.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:33Theo Von?

  So now, right now I'm upset at somebody else and maybe even at myself. And then later I'm gonna be, I'll have to apologize to somebody and probably

• 1:07:42Theo Von?

  then be a little bit disheartened in myself.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:44Theo Von?

  For my actions.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Theo Von?

  So it's like, what do I really want? Or do I just want things to kind of be chill?

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  See, I, I love what you're saying right now because to me, one of the, one of the best lessons people can learn about anger or any emotion is when I'm feeling it, I need to stop for a second and think about what my goals are. What's the thing that I, where do I want this situation to end?

• 1:08:08Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  And sometimes that is like, you know, if I get mad on my, my way to work, uh, because somebody cut me off, right now I could, I could drive them off the road and get in a fight with them, but does that get me to work on time, right? And the way I want, like my goal is to get to my destination safely. And and so I should focus on that and anything else that I try and do in that moment doesn't serve me.

• 1:08:33Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  You know, and I mean, I use an exaggerated example, but even giving them the finger or honking at them. All those things just serve to distract me from my actual goal.

• 1:08:41Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  And and we can think about that in a gajillion different other places, right? If I'm, if I get, you know, if I scrolling through social media and I see a post that bugs me. Yeah, I can, I can fight back or I can argue or whatever, or I can think about what, what do I? Why am I here? Why am I in this space? What's, what is the point of arguing? Maybe there's, maybe there's a good reason to, um, and and I should. Or maybe there's a good reason for me to just scroll on and not care.

• 1:09:09Theo Von?

  Yeah, I was just thinking when you said that the social media definitely kind of, it almost deflates our anger in some ways. Because instead of a lot of times, it used to be maybe if enough people got angry about something, they would go protest. They would make a difference. They would boycott, they would not use a product or they would stand up. But now it almost feels like you can comment into almost a vacuum because of how quick things disappear.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:33Theo Von?

  And you can just say, well, I commented or I say, you know, or I posted, right? I did something, but then it kind of like just satiates enough.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:41Theo Von?

  The human desire to do something where we don't end up doing things. And then we, as a group, get kind of further and further into this crevasse.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  I, I think that is a real problem. I think you're absolutely, I do, I think you're absolutely right that, that a big, a big part of what happens is some, there's this, the social media. And now, I don't want to minimize social media activism because there are forms of it that are really powerful and really meaningful. But, but there are also forms of it that are, that don't do much, right? And, but they, they, I think you use the word satiate, right? They, they give you a sense of like, I did something and because I did something, I can now rest, right? I, I'm, I, I had my impact.

• 1:10:20Theo Von?

  Right, I had my human impact, but it's not, sometimes it's, and it changes so much.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:26Theo Von?

  Um, it changes so much, whereas like every day there's a new option almost.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:10:31Theo Von?

  So the thing you impacted is just, they've almost just replaced it with something new.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Yep, and, and there's a new thing to be mad about too, right? You've got a new, I've got a new, uh, uh, both outlet, but also, you know, thing to focus on.

• 1:10:44Theo Von?

  A new topic, moved right along.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:10:46Theo Von?

  Here's an article that was in the Atlantic, the problem with social media protests. Before the internet changed its speed at which the world moves, movements were slower growing. A year of organizing and directly advocating for change led to a 13 month long Montgomery bus boycott that began with Rosa Parks Act of Resistance. Right, that's what it used to be like.

• 1:11:08Theo Von?

  By contrast, mass protests such as Occupy Wall Street formed rapidly but then lacking that underlying resilience created over time, often lost focus, direction, and most important, their potential to affect change.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Interesting. So in some ways, it feels like what they're saying is when you when you put a lot of work into something in advance, then you want to see it through in ways that social media protests don't have that, right? It's like, you know, I've been thinking about this for a week, so I don't need to keep thinking about it. I mean, I don't have as much sunk into this.

• 1:11:39Theo Von?

  No, and if I close the app, I'm not even an activist anymore.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Right, right. Interesting.

• 1:11:43Theo Von?

  It's kind of interesting, huh?

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Theo Von?

  I grew up in a home where there was a lot of anger, right? It was probably our number one emotion that we had.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:53Theo Von?

  You know, it was just farm to table there. It was like, you got, it was 100% grass fed anger.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Alright, alright.

• 1:12:02Theo Von?

  And it was, it was just the only way that we communicated. How much of a responsibility is it of parents to, like, teach kids what their feelings are?

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. I love this. So, real quick, when you say there was a lot of anger, was it mostly, like, outward expressed, like yelling, screaming?

• 1:12:24Theo Von?

  Yeah, mostly yelling, screaming, throwing things, judgment.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:30Theo Von?

  Those are like the main emotions, you know, and then humor.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:33Theo Von?

  So, but we, otherwise, it was just always, you knew somebody was gonna be angry.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Where were you in the, in the birth order?

• 1:12:41Theo Von?

  I was number two. I have an older brother and two sisters.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Okay, and the sisters are both younger than you?

• 1:12:45Theo Von?

  Yep, they're both younger, and everybody's...

• 1:12:49Theo Von?

  Alive still, pretty much.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Pretty much.

• 1:12:52Theo Von?

  Yeah, I mean, some people are, you know.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 1:12:56Theo Von?

  They're willing to risk it all, you know, but uh, some of us are doing our best. So, but yeah. Yeah. So that's where we had in that. It was just, it was, there was a lot of anger in there.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  You know, I think that um, what my feeling is with, with kids in particular, I mean, we can think about this from the, well, I'll start with what I consider to be sort of the golden rule of, of emotion and parenting. And that is that kids tend to express emotions the way their caregivers did. And so they tend to, and it's, it's rooted in like age old psychology that we, it's called modeling, right? And so kids tend to model what their parents did, that if, if mom or dad yell and scream, kids tend to yell and scream as a way of, of dealing with emotions. And um, now there's some caveats that because simultaneously, the, the other side is that, you know,

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  kids sometimes get rewarded or punished for emotional expressions of particular types, right? So a kid hits somebody and they get punished for it.

• 1:13:57Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Now oddly enough, sometimes they get punished for it by getting hit by, by the parent, right? Getting spanked or, or whatever.

• 1:14:05Theo Von?

  Right. It's kind of wild when you think about like that.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Right. And so, um, or they get in trouble for yelling by being yelled at, um, you know, so like there, there's all sorts of mixed messages there.

• 1:14:15Theo Von?

  Damn.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  But to me, I mean, some of the, the healthiest things you can do with kids when you're, when you're trying to raise emotionally wise children is to talk about feelings often, to give them the, the, give them the language to have that conversation, to help them identify what they're feeling.

• 1:14:35Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  I think that's a big problem for a lot of people, for a lot of kids and continues is they don't know the difference between anger and sadness. They don't know the difference between fear and anger.

• 1:14:46Theo Von?

  Oh yeah. I would just start vibe, you know?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Theo Von?

  Every now and then you see that kid, he's just vibrating. You don't know what's going on. You gotta show them a um, flash card or something, you know?

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:56Theo Von?

  Say that's joy, that's anger, that's, but yeah, cause you don't know.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Right. And so helping kids to, I mean, I, one of the things I like to do with my kids and is, um, and liked when they were young is to like unpack those emotional experiences with them and, and not just their own, but when they see a kid. You know, melting down or a kid getting angry or sad or scared or whatever to say. So what do you think's going on? Like what, where did that come from? Why, you know, if we're watching TV and a kid reacts somewhere.

• 1:15:25Theo Von?

  Right. Just so at least they can have their own head like, okay, this is what happens when this happens.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:15:30Theo Von?

  This is what I look like when it happens. This is where I can start to see in somebody else what's going on. And then you'll recognize it in yourself and at least have some sort of, you'll be the conductor in some way as much as you can.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:15:42Theo Von?

  Maybe some of the outcomes, if not some of the origins of the feeling.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then you can even talk through, you know, what are some options for him now, right? You know, this kid's.

• 1:15:49Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, just had this, just it's feeling really hurt. What can, what can he or she do to deal with those feelings of hurt? And I mean, I think those are all are like good, healthy ways. But I think it starts with wanting to make sure people are having those conversations, that people are really understanding it. Because part of what happens too is that people can realize that, you know, that we like to believe, and I've even been saying, you know, look, your, your, your feelings are one of the ways your brain tells you what, what's going on, what you're experiencing. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're rooted in logic or reality, or that they're even really valid, right? We, we can be angry over a misunderstanding. We can be scared over something that's not really dangerous. Um, and the, the feelings are real, right?

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  We shouldn't minimize that, but we should take some time to like unpack them and talk about like what, what is, what's going on? Why?

• 1:16:43Theo Von?

  Yeah. I think that kind of stuff is important, at least because I think for myself, a long time, I didn't know a lot of feelings I was even having. I didn't know, I only knew a couple, like, I, I, I remember like, yeah, like certain things were going on. I wouldn't really have any feelings about it. And I was like, man, I never really had a lot of feelings.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:17:03Theo Von?

  So I think sometimes talk with your kids, like, oh, this is a feeling. That's what that is. This is what's going on. Cause otherwise you can just think you're bonkers as a child, you know? Like if somebody doesn't tell you kind of what's happening with you.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Well, a lot of times kids aren't really allowed to have feelings, right? I mean, that like that, that they're shamed for them, that the message is, hey, hold that in. Don't. Let people see that. And then, I mean, of course, that's going to continue into into adulthood. Where where they're just, they don't feel like they're allowed. They don't feel like it's safe to express that stuff.

• 1:17:38Theo Von?

  I was thinking, if you allow your kids, right, like, like space to feel their feelings. Okay, does that create in them, like, you know, recognize they're feeling something, allow them a little space to feel it, right? Yeah, does that create like more of like an emotional resilience in them? Which would just then like, then when they're angry again, it would just kind of become another emotion to them, sort of like.

• 1:18:04Theo Von?

  Does that make any sense?

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think what you really want.

• 1:18:08Theo Von?

  So then in the future, they could cope better. So if it happens to them next time, I'd be like, okay.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Yep, because what you really want is, I mean, you want a situation where your kids can, when they're feeling something, A, know what they're feeling, B, have a sense for where it's coming from, understand like its root causes, be able to critically evaluate those root causes, and then know what to do with it, right? And I mean, and that's a, that's a level of sophistication that I don't think, frankly, most people are capable of. But it's because we haven't given them the space or the tools to do that over their lifetime. And I think we're way better than at this as a society now than we were when you and I were kids, right? Like, we're way better at at trying to provide those tools to to kids.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  But it comes with them, it it comes with people being able to have those conversations to say, hey, but let's talk about what you're feeling right now, not in a like necessarily a judgment or punishy way like, hey, you just got real mad. You hit your brother. Let's let's have a conversation about that. Let's talk about better ways to to handle that. Let's make sure we make up for what we did. So it's not like it's consequence free. People oftentimes accuse me of being sort of wimpy and like, hey, you're you're letting your kids walk all over you. They got to get punished or whatever. That's it's not that it's consequence free. It's like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna. Deal with with those with those feelings and try and figure out sort of the best way to

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  handle it. And yeah, that that helps them develop that emotional resilience going forward.

• 1:19:42Theo Von?

  Yeah, at least having some emotional understanding of yourself.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:46Theo Von?

  But how do you then like, put the cap on it where you're like, it's okay if my kid is, you know, like, um, well, like, how do we not turn into one of these societies where it's just like, oh, I don't feel like going to work today, so I'm not gonna go.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Theo Von?

  You know, like, that's, nobody ever feels like going to work. That's the first thing they should tell you when you go, when you ever go to school.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:06Theo Von?

  One day you're gonna go to work and nobody's gonna feel like it. That should be the first thing that they teach us.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, it's true. Like, the message also has to be that your emotions alone aren't necessarily reason not to do something.

• 1:20:18Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, that's the, you know, I have a, I have two kids. Both of them are very, very awesome in different ways. But the, you know, the one is, he's a performer. He's a dancer and he's in a lot of musicals and things like that. And he, one of the things that I can say about him is people, people often talk about how brave he is, and he is. But I know him well enough to know that he gets real anxious about about performing and those things. He's feeling that fear. It's not that he's not scared. It's that he knows how to do things anyways. And that's where you want people to get. Like, you want people to get to a point of, right now, you know what, I'm feeling sad and I don't feel like being able to go, I don't feel like going to work, but I also need to do it. And I

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  understand what my responsibilities are, and I can work through that. And, and I think like, there's, there's something to be said for, I mean, to me, that's a big part of what emotional resilience is. It's being able to, to feel things and then overcome those feelings at times.

• 1:21:15Theo Von?

  Right. Yeah. And I think if you give your kid space for that, it feels like you're gonna, that that's a armor you can create in them as well.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:21:22Theo Von?

  It's like, hey, you feel sad right now, or you feel a little disappointed. This is how you can manage that right now. And look, five minutes later, wow, look, we're right back to where we were before. Everything's good. So then when they have those things happen in their own lives, when you're not around, they're gonna have like, some sort of, even if it's just brief little. Check-ins from a parent are huge.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Well, you can, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, and this isn't just about parenting. This is about being a supervisor. It's about being a human being. You can be sensitive and have expectations.

• 1:21:52Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Right? You can, you can be sensitive to your, your kids' emotional needs and have things you expect them to do. You can be sensitive to your employees and have expectations of them.

• 1:22:03Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  You know, and, and frankly, you can be sensitive to yourself and you can be sort of patient and caring with yourself and still have expectations for, for what you want to accomplish.

• 1:22:14Theo Von?

  That's a tough one sometimes.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Theo Von?

  Give yourself some grace.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I'm terrible at it.

• 1:22:20Theo Von?

  Are you?

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am. Yeah, I'm really hard on myself.

• 1:22:22Theo Von?

  Yeah, me too, man.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Theo Von?

  God.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  That probably, back when we were talking about type A at the beginning, right? That's probably part of it, right? Is like you, you're, you know, you're competitive, you're success driven and, and that means you, you, you want to accomplish certain things and that means being a certain way. Yeah.

• 1:22:39Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's interesting because I don't know when I would ever give myself the benefit of the doubt very often, you know? I almost have to have someone say, hey, man, give yourself some grace here.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:48Theo Von?

  You know, like, in, like, feel some pride, you know? I think, uh, and then sometimes I don't blame this on my being a kid or whatever, but I think I never knew anything. I never knew any, nobody, like, I never knew what I was feeling or what was going on. So I think even things like that with your kid, like, hey, man, you can feel proud of yourself. Like, I know some of it sounds lame probably in some senses, but the cost of not doing it with your kids, I think can be kind of immense.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:23:17Theo Von?

  Because growing up not knowing, like, having my own sense of what's okay for me leaves me at the whim of what other people think is okay for me, you know? And that can just get kind of harrowing. I'm not. You know, trying to like, woe is me. That's not fully my story, but it can, I could see it being really risky for folks.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, for me, one of the things that's been really helpful is to surround myself with really good people. Um, who, who care about me and that there are people who, who, um, you know, when I'm being hard on myself, sometimes it's nice to have a friend who can sort of step in and remind me like, hey, you know, it's okay to, it's okay to, to not have things happen exactly as you want them. It's okay to, to take a break and just be proud of what you accomplished today. And it's nice to have people in your life who, who can support you that way.

• 1:24:08Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:24:10Theo Von?

  Yeah, it feels like we always have to be making something better these days too.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Theo Von?

  Like that and every, it'd be like, if you, if you knew somebody and something was wrong with them, people would just be like, dang, something's wrong with him.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:21Theo Von?

  You know, and then 10 years later, people would be like, dang, how's Ernie? And then people like, something is wrong with him. Like it had escalated, you know, like he bought it up at an empty swimming pool and he was spending time in there. And so, but now it's like.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Is that a real story? Is there a real person you know who bought an empty swimming pool and?

• 1:24:39Theo Von?

  There was some men in our neighborhood that would kind of like meet up or whatever, like this empty swimming pool at night and smoke weed or whatever.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Whenever I hear you drop an example like that, part of me is like, did that just come from his brain or is that like a real thing?

• 1:24:51Theo Von?

  Oh no, that was a real thing, dude. We grew up in a very shirtless area, if you will. It was very, a lot of people just, a lot of people whistling and no shirts. Just a lot of this.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:25:05Theo Von?

  Doing their best.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  That was a good description. I, I like that. I can, I can imagine what this, what this area was like.

• 1:25:11Theo Von?

  We grew up in the stray animal belt, brother. So there was just a lot of, yeah.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  A lot of shirtless people and.

• 1:25:16Theo Von?

  Shirtless people and no collars on these animals either. You know what I'm saying? Everybody was just risking it all. You ever realize that you spent your entire morning thinking about lunch? It's 9 a.m. and somehow I'm already in negotiations with myself about how I'm gonna spend $20 on a sandwich at noon. And then I eat it, or you eat it, or somebody eats it, and then an hour later, you're just standing in the kitchen worrying about what you'll do for dinner. And that's one reason why I've been into Huell. The Black Edition Powder is a complete meal you have instead of food, not a shake on top of food. Their powder starts at less than $3 per meal, has 40 grams of

• 1:25:57Theo Von?

  protein, and mixes with water or milk in about 30 seconds. I like Huell's shakes because they're clean and it's quick. Sometimes I just want to make sure I have everything I need to keep going the way I want to keep going in a healthy manner. So with Huell, basically, lunch went from a daily logistical problem to a thing I can solve in about 30 seconds. Make healthy eating simple. New customers get an exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code WEEKEND at huell.com/weekend. That's H-U-E-L dot com slash weekend. Thank you to Huell for partnering and supporting our show.

• 1:26:39Theo Von?

  Can we still have childhood anger as adults? Like, what happens to anger from our childhood that isn't processed? Or what happens to unprocessed anger?

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I think two things can be true here, right? I think on the one hand, yeah, we can absolutely still have, you know, anger and resentment and stuff that happened when we were a kid that we continue to be mad about forever. I also think that it's sort of never too late to process some of that stuff, right? I mean, you know, and that there's no reason why in your 40s or 50s, you can't start to deal with some of the stuff that you're mad about still from childhood. It might be harder. And I also think we have to be honest about what the what the outcome is gonna be, right? I mean, we have to recognize that some of those things, I guess, think about what dealing with it looks like, because I can't-

• 1:27:34Theo Von?

  It's a good point. You brought it up earlier with the other topic. Is like, think it, what outcome you want to have. What was the other one?

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. It's like, what are your goals here? And I think the thing is, like, you know, when you're, when you're, I'm 48 years old, right? When you're 48, you might not- You might not be able to make to fix the bad stuff that happened that you're still frustrated by. So that can't be the goal, but maybe it is to forgive. Maybe it's to better understand where if it is a person who wronged you, where that person was coming from. I mean, those are all things that we can try and process, ways we can try and deal with. Maybe it's just to forgive ourselves for, for, you know, not handling it in a different way.

• 1:28:19Theo Von?

  Man, forgive ourselves for not being able to forgive people even.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Theo Von?

  That sounds crazy.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:28:26Theo Von?

  Cause that sometimes it's like, that's crazy. I never thought about that. Sometimes it's not even that I'm upset anymore as much that I can't forgive the person.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:36Theo Von?

  It's like I start to get upset at myself because I can't forgive the person. So I'm not upset at the person anymore.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:43Theo Von?

  I'm just upset at me because I'm having trouble forgiving. Is that crazy?

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that I mean, not crazy. That's really interesting and insightful, right? I'm, I'm, I'm still mad at this person. I feel like I shouldn't be and I'm struggling.

• 1:28:55Theo Von?

  Mad at me because I can't forgive them.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Theo Von?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:58Theo Von?

  I mean, yeah, sometimes that, yeah, I would just notice it can hop from one thing, a thing like that. And I don't even know exactly what I'm mad about, you know?

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Um, that's what, you know, I was thinking about it earlier, like, so I was once a, um, I was once a really bad student.

• 1:29:14Theo Von?

  Really?

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. That's surprising to people. Yeah, I really, really struggled in high school. Um, and I actually failed out of my first university. Um, and, um,

• 1:29:24Theo Von?

  My God.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  I know. It was, and, and a lot of it came, I mean, it came from a lot of different places. Like one of them was, um, uh, so I was a diehard soccer player and soccer fan at the time. And I had a hard time like not being more interested in that than in school.

• 1:29:44Theo Von?

  Okay, so you just love soccer so much?

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Yep. And same thing. I, I drank too much my, my first year in, in college too. That was, that was relevant. Um, not in high school at all, but in college that was a problem. But also I just hadn't developed a lot of like the study skills necessary to, to be successful. And um, and so I, I still like, I, I years later, I still find myself sort of struggling with that, like mad at myself for not having done better, mad at myself for not having made more of, of my college experience. Cause what happened is I, I took a, I took a break, like six months off. I traveled a little bit. I was very, very fortunate that like I had a safety net, you know, and it didn't mean I was like homeless. I could

• 1:30:26Theo Von?

  Right. You could afford to go somewhere and travel.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Yep. And I, and I had, I could live with my mom for a little while, while I sort of figured things out in ways that a lot of my students can't, you know? And, and so, um, so, um, having that, um, I, I went back to college and I kind of got it together, right? After taking a little break, but, but I'm, I'm mad at myself still for not having a different kind of college experience, you know?

• 1:30:50Theo Von?

  Wow. Yeah, man. It's funny. I'll get upset at myself with like, yeah, that I didn't have a blast in college sometimes. Like that's just this general term that's in my head. Man, I'm upset that I didn't have a blast in college.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Theo Von?

  But if I went and looked through a calendar and shit, people would be like, dude, you had a great time.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:07Theo Von?

  It's like sometimes I don't even remember things correctly. It's like my perspective of them isn't even clean and then are clear. And then I'll get upset at a unreal, and then I'll be like, fuck, man, I gotta fucking, or I'll be like, dang, man, I gotta enroll somewhere.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep.

• 1:31:23Theo Von?

  You know, I could still be a mascot. I can't play, but I could still be a mascot. You know, you just start going, and then it's like I'm in this weird anger against myself and it's maybe the perspective wasn't clear, you know, or, yeah.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  Well, a lot of times our, our emotions, our memories of emotional experiences aren't accurate.

• 1:31:40Theo Von?

  Dude, why?

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  And so, I mean, part of it is that we hit the highlights or the lowlights, right? And so like, if you think about a, a, and so it's actually somebody did a study on this, where they had people monitor their emotions over the course of a, a week long vacation. And then when they came back, they took a survey, how did, did you enjoy the vacation? Right? And what they found is that there was very little correlation between those two things. Because when people are, are at the end of a trip, when they're saying, how did you feel? They're reflecting on the high points or the low points, right? And they're just thinking like, the overall experience was super rad. I was in Jamaica. It was great. I loved it. What they forget is, you know, how long it took to get their luggage. Um, what they forget, like getting stuck in traffic for hours and hours.

• 1:32:25Theo Von?

  Bugs or whatever.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  All that stuff.

• 1:32:28Theo Von?

  Violence or whatever.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Yep. And so they, they forget all that stuff and they just focus on those other things. Or the, and I think the same thing can be true of college, right? It's like you, you, you, you think about sort of the high points or the low points. You don't think about the like, you know, the other sort of, of elements to think that happened, the day in and day out stuff.

• 1:32:47Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  And, um, or, or sort of, we think about like an overall theme of what it was like. Instead of, instead of, um, you know, that those, those day in and day out experiences.

• 1:32:59Theo Von?

  Yeah, I think it's called chunking or something. I'm not sure how our, why our brain, our memory does that. I've been reading this book, um, by this guy, Dr. Sangarath, but it's about our memories and stuff. It's really, it's pretty interesting.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:12Theo Von?

  Um, dude, sometimes when it comes to my anger and stuff, I will even like, like, I think I remember being so angry sometimes as a kid, I almost, like I enjoy my anger in a way. Cause it's like, I had such a relationship with it.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:30Theo Von?

  I don't know if that sounds crazy or not.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  No, it, it doesn't. I mean, I think they're.

• 1:33:33Theo Von?

  Like, I don't enjoy it as in I wanna like act it out or something, or vandalize a shelter or whatever. But like that I want to, like if I, there's a part of me still that when I get angry, it connects to that kid part of me that was angry. And it's like, this is, it's ours, you know?

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Well, I think all of us, like, you know, we've been talking about anger as an emotion and it is, but it's also sometimes a personality trait, right? It's a, it's a.

• 1:33:57Theo Von?

  Oh, really?

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a characteristic, like some, there are some people who are just angrier than others. There are some people express their anger more outwardly or experience more consequences. And, and because of that, um, you know, and I think with any personality trait, sometimes as human beings, we, we cling to things that we sort of like as defining characteristics, right? And so. So like and we we cling to those as things that like make us proud of ourselves or that we enjoy or whatever. So maybe a person says, well, hey, like I'm I'm kind. That's that's that's just who I am and I lean into that. Maybe someone leans into the idea that they're an angry person and that it's, you know, that's kind of how they identify.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  I think that's true, especially because so in this, I'm not advocating for this, but anger is how a lot of successful people get things done. Right? Do you ever watch the show Entourage?

• 1:34:50Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Okay, so Ari Gold, that that character, you know, that's rooted in a real life person. And he who I think had like used those kinds of of.

• 1:35:02Theo Von?

  Tactics.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, tactics and used angry, aggressive approach to to manipulate people. And to to get people to do what he what he wanted, right? And so like, that's someone who I think. Probably like appreciates that he identifies as an angry person, right? You know?

• 1:35:20Theo Von?

  He appreciates that he identifies that way?

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's like this is just part of who I am and it's part of what makes me successful.

• 1:35:26Theo Von?

  Oh, I see. But then is that just a cop out of somebody that doesn't want to deal with their anger, though?

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  Probably. I mean, I think for a lot of people, that's that's them. It's a, I think they're scared to change. It's like, I mean, if this is the thing that I've identified as making me successful. Well, then dealing with it might mean that I'm no longer.

• 1:35:43Theo Von?

  Going to be successful.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Going to be good at what I do.

• 1:35:46Theo Von?

  Can, um, but if it's a trait, then so it can be a real thing that some people are just are?

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it I think like any trait.

• 1:35:56Theo Von?

  Like without any provocat- like without any?

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, there I think there's still provocations. I just think that they're quick. It doesn't take as much, right? And so it doesn't take as much of a provocation to make someone mad.

• 1:36:07Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  Um, and it's still, I mean, it it it still comes from a combination of upbringing, probably some genetics. You know, that people are more likely to be angry much of the time. You know, and, and so it, it still comes from, from that place.

• 1:36:25Theo Von?

  What are parenting strategies to assist kids with coping with anger?

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:30Theo Von?

  Like, um, like, like not feeling anger very often? Or, yeah, like, what are some of those, do you feel?

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think for what, what I would say is there's, there's, when it comes to, to kids, one of the, probably the most important things to do is, is help them develop the tools that allow them to sort of find ways to decrease their anger in the moment, right? And that's oftentimes for kids, going to be deep breathing, it's going to be, distraction is actually a really good one. So find something else you can do for a little while. Maybe it's, we talked about drawing earlier, maybe it's playing with Legos, maybe it's petting your dog, whatever. Things like that, that, that allow you to, to sort of deescalate.

• 1:37:14Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Um, the other side of it is, you know, helping kids identify where they have some control. And this is harder with kids because I think they have a little less control in their, their day to day life. Where can kids have control in their, um, uh, surroundings, in their environment? How can they sort of do less of the things that, um, that provoke, uh, that might provoke anger, right? My, my son is a, my other son is a diehard basketball fan. Um, and he's, he's a player and fan. And so we've been watching the NBA quite a bit. Uh, I'm from Minnesota originally, so.

• 1:37:51Theo Von?

  Okay, so you guys are in, huh?

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we're, we're Timberwolves fans, but you know, and he handles, you know, they, they won last night. That was great. Uh, but they've been, um, you know, they're, they're down a couple of games.

• 1:38:01Theo Von?

  Down three, one, yeah.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he, he handles it well, but you know, it, it takes a toll on him. Like he gets sad. And he's 12 years old, he gets sad when they, uh, when they lose. And so that's the kind of thing that like over time, you know, you, you want to think about what kind of impact that's having. You want to think about how much it's influencing you. You want to think about whether or not you.

• 1:38:20Theo Von?

  As a parent, you mean?

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:22Theo Von?

  Like a kid doing something, if it's something that like what they're engaging, what they're absorbing, you mean?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, as a parent, you want, you want them to be thinking about. How much time they're spending and this thing that ends up having, taking an emotional toll. Got it. Yeah.

• 1:38:36Theo Von?

  Is it good to let your children feel anger?

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think like anything, I mean, up to a point, you know, I think it's good to let them. Because that's how they're going to deal with the, I mean, I think the art of dealing with emotions is, is. I liken it to exercise. I saw a post years working out the other day, right? You're on a run or something.

• 1:38:58Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I like to run.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. Every day.

• 1:39:01Theo Von?

  You do?

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  I do. Yeah.

• 1:39:02Theo Von?

  Wow.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's great, great for my mental health, great for, for everything. Um, but it, the thing about, um. I, I, I think it's similar, dealing with emotions is similar to exercise in that. You know, when you exercise, you push yourself to a place of discomfort.

• 1:39:18Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  But never so uncomfortable that it's actually harmful, right? And I think you can do the same thing with emotions. You can push yourself into a zone where this emotion is uncomfortable with me. For me, but it's not so uncomfortable that I'm, I'm suffering, right? And so it's like. I want to feel some fear because I want to get used to dealing with that discomfort. And I want to sort of learn to, to cope with it, but I don't want to feel so much fear. That I'm like on the floor shaking or anything like that.

• 1:39:47Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  And with kids, I want them to feel, I want them to feel some anxiety and learn that they can just do the thing anyways.

• 1:39:54Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  I want them to feel some fear, uh, some anger and learn that they can do the thing anyways. Um, and work through it. That that's a good, healthy way to be.

• 1:40:03Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's just interesting when you think about like, that it's a parent's responsibility to do all of that.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:08Theo Von?

  Like how many little things that they learn because of how the parents let them absorb it or.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  And that's, I think one of the challenges is I imagine that, you know, um, you know, our parents, our parents age. Didn't, um, it, it wasn't on their radar.

• 1:40:26Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  To be thinking about stuff like this.

• 1:40:27Theo Von?

  No.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  You know, that they just didn't know. And so they weren't necessarily attuned to like what, what kids. Might need, uh, or benefit from, from an emotional perspective.

• 1:40:38Theo Von?

  Yeah, it was a different time. Another thing that really I'll get angry is if I expect people to, it's kind of unrealistic expectations, but it's thinking people should know what I want, even if I haven't explained it.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, there's a name for this and it's escaping me right now, but there is that sort of like, it's like the opposite of mind reading. It's like they should be able to read your mind, right? And know exactly. Yeah. And so it's like, hey, I, why don't they know exactly the way I want this thing done? And then why aren't they doing it that way? Yeah. And, and for people who are ambitious and people who, you know, are success driven, then that becomes a, a sticking point. It's part of that type A thing that I mentioned before, right? It becomes a sticking point, leads to that, that frustration. Um, you know, why, why isn't it happening the way I want it to?

• 1:41:30Theo Von?

  What other personality types and what types of angers do they have? Do they have all of specific angers or not really? You just find that type A has more?

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, type A is, I mean, originally part of how it was sort of identified was that it was that, that people with type A, with that behavior pattern, they called it at the time, they were, um, that they were angrier, more aggressive.

• 1:41:52Theo Von?

  Yeah. Cause one of the things you mentioned was goals being blocked. And I guess if you have, if you're driven like that, or have that extra like drive, which can be a blessing and a curse sometimes, then you would have more goals just even generally floating around in your head.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Another strategy, not that, not like the, the disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, but sort of an obsessive compulsive personality type is also associated with anger for similar reasons. It's like, I want things the way I want them. And because I want them this way, when other people don't live up to that expectation, it, it makes me mad, right? You know, I want my home a certain way. And if people don't set it up that way, if they don't, if they won't, um, do the things I want, I get angry. Or, um, yeah. And so it's like, I, you know, people who are really kind of rule driven or have, want things in a specific way are just more likely to, to, to get angry. That's why, you know,

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  if we, we think about, um, some of those, what we call the big five personality traits, one of them, like people who are a little bit more open, a little bit more flexible are less likely to, to experience anger.

• 1:42:59Theo Von?

  Gosh.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01Theo Von?

  Gosh, those people are good. I would, oh, I almost feel like I would drink their blood. Is that crazy to say that? Because I just, that's, I'll just. I wish I could have some more of that.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I get it. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, that's the thing we know is that I think there's a real drive right now in sort of modern sort of pop psychology to be really accepting of all personality traits. And I think, I mean, I get why we should be accepting and be supportive, but I think we should also acknowledge that there are some ways of being that might end up being a little healthier than than other ways, right? And openness is a is a great quality, right? And conscientiousness is a great quality. Those things, agreeableness, right? Those things are the kinds of things that that help people be successful in a lot of ways and help them be likable and help them be happy.

• 1:43:46Theo Von?

  Yeah. What about in relationships? You guys talk about a lot about that. Like, how do you deal with if you have a spouse that you feel like has some anger issues?

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is really tough, especially because anger issues in families can look lots of different ways, right? Because there's the there's the kind that is really scary and potentially like bordering on abuse where the anger is driven at the particular person, right? It's the angry husband yelling at the angry wife or vice versa, right? And that's one way it can look. The other way is just a person who's just angry at the world doesn't necessarily take it out on the family. And that's actually the way my dad was. Like, he was an angry guy. He didn't, I can count on one hand the number of times he yelled at me. I wasn't the victim. It was usually the waiter or the gas station

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  attendant or some other driver, you know? And so those, but that still has consequences, right? It still scared me as a kid, right? I mean, yeah, would have scared me if he were yelling at me, but it also scared me when he's yelling at a stranger.

• 1:44:56Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  And, you know, those those moments can really sort of take a toll. I mean, I think, you know, relationships are obviously tricky. I think a lot of times with with relationships, it's got to be about communication. It's got to be about like a person being willing to do the work to try and change.

• 1:45:17Theo Von?

  Yeah. And what kind of help do people? Need that are that have severe anger problems.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  That's the thing. I think it's, you know, there are lots of things that people can do on their own without a professional. But ultimately, when the, when the situation is bad enough, people need to, to talk to a therapist, right?

• 1:45:35Theo Von?

  And how do they recognize when it's bad enough? Do you think? Sorry, I keep stacking questions on you.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  No, that's all right. Those are great questions. I mean, I mean, I think usually it should be driven by the, the consequences. And to me, for me, if a partner came to me and said, hey, your anger is making me uncomfortable. Your anger scaring me or it's making, like, to me, that's enough for me to want to say, okay, I gotta do something about it. And if I can't on my own, well, then I'm gonna go.

• 1:46:02Theo Von?

  Get some help.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  Get some help.

• 1:46:03Theo Von?

  Somehow, yeah.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  If it's not in a relationship, if it's, if it's just, you know, I'm, I'm, I find myself getting so angry. I'm like uncomfortable with it, or I don't like living with myself, or it, I'm, I'm, you know, drinking too much or whatever as a way of coping with it. Well, then those are all ways that I can, those are all signs that I need to meet with someone if I can't fix it on my own.

• 1:46:27Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, cuz most of my anger usually just comes out about work stuff.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:32Theo Von?

  You know, in person, in regular life, I'm usually pretty chill.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:36Theo Von?

  But yeah, I think when it comes to work and wanting to get things done, yeah, and wanting to be like efficient or. Yeah, a lot of just unrealistic expectations.

• 1:46:47Speaker 01

  Well, it sounds like it's motivated, like that there's an undercurrent of stress there, right? There's an undercurrent of like, hey, if, if I don't, if I don't meet these expectations, if I don't accomplish these things, something bad's gonna happen. Right? And so I'm, I'm, I'm anxious because I have these goals or I'm stressed because I have these goals. And I get mad when things get in the way of them.

• 1:47:08Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:10Theo Von?

  Yeah, I think sometimes the motive, it's like, I think sometimes they come from an unrealistic space overall. Because sometimes I think I just have unrealistic expectations of myself, right? So that I'll never be able to achieve them. So I'll always be at a loss.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:24Theo Von?

  And so then it'll. Couple with some, some like core belief I've always had that I'm not enough, right? That sort of, right? To me, that's how I've been able to kind of see that.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Theo Von?

  What some of that makeup is like, and I'm not trying to look at it as like, oh, woe is me. I'm just looking at it.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that, that's great. And, and I would, I, I bet, I don't know this, but, but tell me, you know, I, I bet sometimes those unreasonable expectations, the way that they matter, like boots on the ground in a particular week or day, is that you end up planning too much or trying to do too much, you know? And it's like, you know, you think to yourself, well, hey, for me to achieve X, I've got to get A, B, and C done this week. And it's impossible to get A, B, and C done in a, in a single week.

• 1:48:06Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  So, so you set yourself up for failure that way.

• 1:48:10Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, a lot of time, I won't give things a lot of breathing room.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:13Theo Von?

  You know, and that kind of is a bummer. I know sometimes you'll have a meeting with a friend and you're like, oh, I wish this meeting could be another 45 minutes, but.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Theo Von?

  You know, I only set up a certain amount of time because I'm too focused on the work aspect of it and not focused on like the human aspect of it.

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:48:27Theo Von?

  Sometimes that happens.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  I, I do this all the time. Like one of my, one of my, you know, I set goals for myself every, I do this every semester, right? I, I intentionally, I say, these are the things I want to do this semester, this year, whatever. And then what that translates into is, well, that means that this month I've got to get X, Y, and Z done. I gotta do these things. And then that means I, I overplan for a particular week or day, and then I get frustrated with myself.

• 1:48:53Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  And then it connects back to that core belief that you're talking about of, well, I'm not good enough, right?

• 1:48:59Theo Von?

  Or I ruin everything.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:49:01Theo Von?

  I can't do this. What the F?

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:49:03Theo Von?

  You F, you loser.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  Too often, the solution to that is that we, instead of giving ourself grace and being patient with ourselves and saying, hey, we set impossible goals for ourself, is we just say, well, we just need to work harder.

• 1:49:16Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  Right? And then we feel crappy when we don't achieve it.

• 1:49:20Theo Von?

  Man, it's just a lot of my life is I just have to work harder.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:24Theo Von?

  I could, yeah, it was tough when I was to have fun. I would tell my friends, I've said this before, but my friends like, let's go do this thing. I'm like, I can't go. I have to write a book. And that's where my mind always was kind of, it was like, you can't go do that.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:49:37Theo Von?

  You have all this shit to do.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:39Theo Von?

  Don't you know you have all this shit to do? And I would never even look at exactly what the stuff was. It was just this gin. And I didn't realize that to reason, like, well, what shit do I have to do? Like, I never even, I just assumed I had to do all these things. It was like this to do list. Right. Something was always being added on to.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:56Theo Von?

  And sometimes it was like the worst part of my brain was, was just going to add things on there no matter what, like unrealistic things.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:50:02Theo Von?

  Like look better.

• 1:50:05Theo Von?

  Like, all right, by eight PM or whatever, you're like, this is cra- we can't do, you know, just like, or just, you know, you should be different. Like that's a, but that would be like the kind of just like vague thing that would be on this.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, eh, yeah. And then, and ultimately, you know, that to do list never ends, right?

• 1:50:22Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  I mean, you just keep adding to it. Um, because there's always more you can do. And so, and that's the problem. I mean, I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot lately with work is that part of what happens is that we fill up the cracks, like we fill up all the time with just more work. And, and this is particularly true of ambitious people. Is that they say, well, I can just, I can just keep going. Like, there's no end. There's no end to the amount of work. Um, that I can, that I can find to fill in. And if I want to be successful in the ways I want to be successful, then that's what I've got to do. And then that's, that hurts, right? It's, we suffer in the long run.

• 1:50:59Theo Von?

  And it makes me think when you're talking about that, do we have like just such un, like, how do we temper or

• 1:51:07Theo Von?

  how do we prospectivize our goals for success? How do we look at?

• 1:51:14Theo Von?

  Can you help me say what I'm trying to say?

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like when are, when is it enough? Right?

• 1:51:18Theo Von?

  Yeah, like and how can we even frame it for ourselves so that we're not just have this blind thing?

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:23Theo Von?

  Like you need to be successful.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:25Theo Von?

  So that it's actually specific and realistic and yeah, and then when is enough?

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I mean, because in some way, I mean, you said before you like running. I don't know if you do, if you do races, like if you've ever, if you ever run, you know, whatever. Um, but I mean, it'd be like.

• 1:51:39Theo Von?

  I don't do races.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:41Theo Von?

  I would do them.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:42Theo Von?

  But I don't do them yet.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  But it's like, it's like if you, if every race you did, the finish line just kept moving.

• 1:51:48Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Right? Because we move it on ourselves. Um, and, and, and we don't accept that, like we've accomplished a thing. I do, I mean, one of the, one of the things I do to sort of keep myself happy, even though I have this, this personality style too, right? Where I'm just constantly adding to do's. One of the ways I keep myself happy is by, by really marking those achievements. Like when I've finished a thing, I, I treat it like an accomplishment. I don't just add to it. I stop and I say, we did a thing. Like let's be, be happy about that. Let's be excited. Now we can, we can take a day before we move on to the next thing.

• 1:52:26Theo Von?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Um, so the next thing's still going to be there for me. And, and I admit, I think there's something about me that I, I need that next thing. I don't know what I do. Like, you know, if you want to get to the root of like what scares me most, it's retirement, right?

• 1:52:41Theo Von?

  Really?

• 1:52:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I don't.

• 1:52:43Theo Von?

  Retirement in the sense of having too much time then? Or retirement in the sense of just not having like a specific goal, maybe?

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  It's that. I don't know what my brain would do. I don't know how it'd operate without a thing, without a thing to think about, or like without work to think about. I don't know what it would.

• 1:53:01Theo Von?

  Yeah, we gotta find out, don't we?

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:03Theo Von?

  Yeah, dude, we gotta just, just, just torch your calendar and get a little weird. I feel like you get this guy.

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Get a little weird.

• 1:53:11Theo Von?

  I mean, or, you know, just to see what God wants, but it's like, yeah. Oh, I can't imagine, dude, if somebody said, you can't do that, like.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:21Theo Von?

  You can't work tomorrow?

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Theo Von?

  I literally, something would crawl out of me.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Theo Von?

  And go like this.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Yep. No, I have, I've been, we got furlough days this, this year. Do you know, you know what a furlough is?

• 1:53:34Theo Von?

  For disease or something?

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  No, we, we had some, we had to take unpaid days, like forced to take unpaid days to save the university money. And, and we're literally not allowed.

• 1:53:47Theo Von?

  We're gonna do that.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:49Theo Von?

  Just letting everybody know, right now, Dr. Ryan Martin is brought in.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. So we're literally not allowed to work, right? And, and so, and, and I, I mean, I shouldn't say this because I'll get in trouble, but I've been working on those days. I just, I just don't use my computer because I'm not allowed to because I'm just like on my phone, like.

• 1:54:12Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Doing.

• 1:54:13Theo Von?

  But you're saying, look.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Doing stuff. I'm on a different computer, just still working. So, yeah.

• 1:54:19Theo Von?

  I've worked sometimes to keep me away from having to deal with my own personal life, I think, sometimes.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:54:24Theo Von?

  Do people do that?

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a, that's a real distraction for, I mean, that, that's part of, part of what happens is, yeah.

• 1:54:33Theo Von?

  Yeah, because I think it feels manageable, you know, it just feels like I can control what's going to happen, you know?

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I get that.

• 1:54:41Theo Von?

  But that's okay. That doesn't mean necessarily a bad thing.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so either. I mean, I, I think, like, there are lots of things in people's lives that can be fulfilling. And, and yeah, personal relationships are absolutely one of those things and it's, people should, they're good for us in a gajillion different ways. But people can be fulfilled by their work, especially, I mean, I, you know, especially when, when they identify ways that their work is really meaningful. And not just to them, but to the world around them. And if they can see that, and then, yeah, it's really fulfilling to, to, to do that work. I think what, what would make me sad is if I like hit a point where I thought. You know, hey, I've been doing all of this and none of it really mattered, right?

• 1:55:29Theo Von?

  To you?

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, or to people in the world, right? Like it all sort of went away. I, I don't, I don't think that's true of the job I do. I don't think it's true of the job you do. I think it matters to, to people. And, um, and it, and it matters to me, but, um, but it would be, you know, for someone whose job was to do whatever.

• 1:55:48Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  You know, they had-

• 1:55:49Theo Von?

  Well, I could see that happening. I could see especially like as we get more technologically advanced and we take away jobs. You know, um, that people start to lose their purpose. You have to have some purpose.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56:02Theo Von?

  Or you're just, you won't have any, you won't care about yourself or anything. You, you, everything has to have a purpose.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  Yep. And then, and then for people, it's about, well, where do they find that? Right? Because maybe it's not work and it's okay if it's not work, right? It could be, it could be your hobbies. It could be your family. It could be seeing the world. It could be a billion things.

• 1:56:21Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Theo Von?

  Yeah, I do think though, that sometimes with like, like, like I wish there was just something that was like, hey, no more technology.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:56:30Theo Von?

  You know, like we're, we're doing fine. We don't need like a robot sheriff. And six Uber drivers hiding from him all, you know, like, like, and everything, you know, it's like, that's what it just. Yeah, I don't know. I think about that sometimes, like, why we wouldn't stop technology because it doesn't feel like it serves us sometimes at a certain point.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Well, especially the way in which we have reacted to it. I mean, in so many way, like technology, I think almost by definition is supposed to make our lives better. And supposed to make our lives easier, right?

• 1:57:07Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  And I don't necessarily see that happening, right? It makes specific tasks easier, but then we fill up that space with other work.

• 1:57:15Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  Right? You know, it like, um, have you ever tried to do some task that's really easy now? But have you ever thought about like what it used to be like when we were young to like-

• 1:57:26Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, dude. Like I even just, even writing a sentence the other day. It was like, where are we?

• 1:57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:32Theo Von?

  I was like, what happened, dude? Is this, are we in like the, is this a war treaty or something? I was like, what are we even? And then I was watching, um, it was a pencil, right? And I was watching the leg come out of it. I was like, this is crazy. This just happened, I cannot even believe it.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, I mean, when I think about how, how, uh, I think honestly, it was like, uh, it was getting my tickets for this flight and I was like thinking about how there was a time when like you ordered paper tickets and they came in the mail and you had to like carry them with you.

• 1:58:09Theo Von?

  And you were all excited, yeah.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, versus having them.

• 1:58:12Theo Von?

  Yeah, you got a ticket to a concert, like there were certainly things that added this, like there was more of a, um, when there was more paper in the world, things that there, I don't know, things felt a little bit more connected, even when there was like a local newspaper and stuff and you got your name in it for something or you got to see what was happening in your community, it was a big deal, like they don't have a lot of those anymore.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:33Theo Von?

  And so a lot of just like the value of being a community, that's not just like a national community feels like it's dilapidating some.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  I think that's true. I mean, I think that's the, there's definitely a degree to which people have sort of like locked themselves into their homes in ways that they're like, and they think they're interacting with people.

• 1:58:56Theo Von?

  Right.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Because they are online, but they're not necessarily coming out and talking to their neighbors regularly.

• 1:59:02Theo Von?

  No, they're not even talking to their spouses or kids. They're always in their room, on their devices, just ordering DoorDash or whatever.

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:59:11Theo Von?

  Like exotic pistachios or whatever, like people are ordering just a lot of weird stuff and then it just, at Christmas, they all meet up in the living room. Everybody's like, wow, mom grew a mustache, you know? And it's just, yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's a different time.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Exotic pistachios.

• 1:59:29Theo Von?

  Yeah. They're good, some are good.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  Are they?

• 1:59:33Theo Von?

  Um, I'm trying to think, any other things you've found that you've gotten yours, that you get angry at yourself for, Dr. Martin?

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  Um, I think some things that like the things that tend to jump out at me, a lot of them are things we've talked about like it's, I get angry at myself when I don't achieve whatever I set my mind to, whatever I've decided. And that's true, not just with work, but it's true with like personal or fitness goals or, or things like that, you know, when I, like I said, I, I map out pretty specific goals. And then when I don't achieve those things, I, I tend to get disappointed with myself. Um, I, I think I tend to, I've become much more relaxed over time, not necessarily at work, but much more relaxed about just the, uh, my interactions with other people that I meet every, and I've, I've sort of embraced that philosophy of, hey, everybody's dealing with

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  something and just, you know, I, I was going through security yesterday at the airport and I, for whatever reason, I think you'll appreciate this, for whatever reason, I got flagged by their, by their like

• 2:00:38Theo Von?

  Yeah, get him. Guys angry.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  You know, the system where you go in and you have to stand there with your arms up and then it, and it like smells you or something. I don't know. I don't know what it does.

• 2:00:46Theo Von?

  Really? Yeah.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  So it

• 2:00:48Theo Von?

  Somebody said it is, they take the smell of you and just email it to Satan or whatever. And that scares me.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  Well, I, I walked out and, uh, it, it like, it lit up both my crotch and my ass like on their like little monitor. And the, and the guy was like, sorry, man, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta pat you down. And, and he, and he took me aside and I think I got a trainee and he was, and he, he was a little rough with me, man.

• 2:01:14Theo Von?

  Was he?

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was like, it was a, it was a, a rough pat down and it was

• 2:01:20Theo Von?

  Was he using more palms, you think? Cause palms are denser.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  No, he was, he, he told me, he walked me through this. Here's what I think happened. I think because he was a trainee.

• 2:01:28Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  He felt the need to like, do a real good job. And so he told me. Yeah. He's like, I, cause my supervisor's watching, I gotta, so I'm, this is where, why I'm telling the story is because like, I'm going to grant this guy some grace and just say, he's doing his best. He's got, he's got a new job. He's trying. He's trying really hard, maybe too hard.

• 2:01:48Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:49Speaker 01

  But he, he did the thing where he put his hands like this and he, and he patted me and he, and he walked me through in advance. He told me what was going to happen. He also had to go up and down my legs.

• 2:01:58Theo Von?

  Oh yeah. That's a big one, kind of.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:00Theo Von?

  It's like, if you just ask me if something's on my legs, I'll tell you honestly.

• 2:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:05Theo Von?

  That's who I am.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, at one point, he said, do you wanna, would you like me to take you someplace private? And I was like, no. No, I really don't. I wanna, I wanna be out here.

• 2:02:16Theo Von?

  Y'all met online?

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, Craigslist. It was great. Yeah, we met out in the woods. He wanted to.

• 2:02:21Theo Von?

  Oh. Dude, there used to be a strange encounters on Craigslist, casual encounters.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:02:27Theo Von?

  Yeah, you could go on there and just meet strangers in the middle of nowhere if you wanted to.

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  No, thanks.

• 2:02:32Theo Von?

  I did it.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 2:02:33Theo Von?

  Yeah, I wish I wouldn't have probably. But there was definitely some different times. You just didn't know, you know?

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 2:02:40Theo Von?

  Just, gosh.

• 2:02:42Speaker 01

  I, I've only used Craigslist to sell stuff and we didn't meet in the woods.

• 2:02:46Theo Von?

  Hey.

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  We just met at my house.

• 2:02:50Theo Von?

  TBD, brother, you know? There's more to be, there's more to know, I'm sure. Um, these are your books right here, Why We Get Mad.

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  Those are for you.

• 2:02:58Theo Von?

  Oh, thank you.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  You can give them away, but you gotta find someone named Theo to give them to.

• 2:03:02Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Cause I signed them.

• 2:03:03Theo Von?

  Oh, thank you.

• 2:03:03Speaker 01

  But now they're worthless. Yeah.

• 2:03:05Theo Von?

  That's super cool. Um, How to Deal with Angry People. Yeah, what do you tell people in this?

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that book, it, it's broken into two sections. It's got one that really explains where anger comes from, where, uh, where, um, uh, why people get angry, some of those angry personality types we were talking about. And then it goes through like 10 specific suggestions for like how you can deal with angry people when you interact with them. Some of it's like, how do you deal with people that you run into online? Some of it's how do you stay calm? Part of it's, you know, do you, uh, do you, do you consider whether or not you really screwed up? Like, maybe the problem is that you blew it and you need to find ways to, to make amends. Um, so it's, uh, things like that.

• 2:03:52Theo Von?

  Is it, is, is apologizing ever a bad idea, do you think?

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  I mean, what I usually say. About apologizing is that I don't think people should do it if they don't mean it. I mean, I think you should mean your apology.

• 2:04:06Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of times we, you know, so I, I, I, I think that one of the things we've done is by, especially with kids, a lot of times we force them to apologize.

• 2:04:17Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:04:18Speaker 01

  You gotta go say you're sorry and, and, you know, I think that actually sends a message of, well, apologizing is what you do to get out of trouble. And that isn't necessarily why we should apologize, right? We should apologize if we're really sorry. I actually don't want people to apologize to me if they're not actually sorry, right? Then it's just a meaningless gesture. And, and

• 2:04:37Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's weird too.

• 2:04:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:38Theo Von?

  They're still calling you names, but they're apologizing.

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  Right, right. And so

• 2:04:42Theo Von?

  Like, I'm sorry, I called you a name a little.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:04:44Theo Von?

  And then you're like, Jesus, God, just.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  And it, cause so if it doesn't lead to changed behavior, then what's the, what's the point?

• 2:04:52Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:53Speaker 01

  So I think, uh, so I, I think, but, but the, the flip side of that is when a person is sorry, they should apologize and they should do it well, you know? Like they should, they should do it effectively. They should, you know, tell people what they're sorry for and they should, they should make amends in a way that suggests that it won't happen again. And I think that's where a lot of people fall short is that it's always a, I'm sorry if, or I'm sorry, but, uh, instead of just, I'm sorry.

• 2:05:24Theo Von?

  Yeah. What can I do to make it up to you? That sort of thing. Before you go, I wanted to, um, I wanted to ask you, why do people, why is road rage such a thing? Why does that?

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Driving is just the absolute perfect scenario for, for leading to anger. Everything about it. I mean, truly, if you were an evil genius and you wanted to create a situation that was going to make people mad, you would create one that, that looked like driving.

• 2:05:53Theo Von?

  Right. We gotta get from here to here.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yep. I got, I got goals and there's people in the way of those goals. Those people who are blocking them are anonymous to me. So I can think or say whatever I want, right? I can call him a total fucking idiot.

• 2:06:06Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  And, uh, and, and I don't know. They might be a genius and I'll have no idea. You've, there's all these unwritten rules of the road. I mean, there's written rules, but then there's also like, what speed should you be going? Right?

• 2:06:21Theo Von?

  Right. So there's vagueness in there too, which can.

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's a thing I often ask my students is what, what speed should you go on the interstate? And because nobody says, you know, the speed limit, it's always five over, 10 over, 15 over. Right? It's, and so if we have, if you and I are on the road and we have different, what's your answer to that?

• 2:06:42Theo Von?

  My answer, probably 11 miles over.

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  Okay. So I'm pretty close to that. I'm like nine.

• 2:06:47Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  I, I, I, I tend to set the cruise at nine over.

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  So if, if you and I encounter each other on the road and you're behind me, well, you get mad because I'm not obeying your, you know, arbitrary rule.

• 2:07:01Theo Von?

  Right.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Right? And I get mad because you're a hazard, right? You're trying, you're riding my bumper or whatever, because hey, I'm already going fast enough.

• 2:07:09Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:09Speaker 01

  So these arbitrary rules set people off. All of that ends up, and then on top of that, it's, it's kind of a nerve wracking situation. We don't actually think of, we've been driving long enough that we forget how anxiety provoking it actually is that, but it's dangerous. Right? And, and so like real harm can, can, can happen. And so all of that tends to exacerbate that, that, that likelihood of getting angry when people slow us down or get in the way. And then add to it that the, the consequences are so significant of people running people off the road when they get mad. People.

• 2:07:49Theo Von?

  Oh, I see.

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just things like that, like that those consequences, we see those, right? I mean, they're very visible. In fact, we, we have seen more road rage related shootings in the last two years than ever before. That people are, are getting aggressive.

• 2:08:05Theo Von?

  Oh yeah. If I'm aggressive dude and, and I have a gun.

• 2:08:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:08:11Theo Von?

  It's anybody's ballgame, dude.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 2:08:16Theo Von?

  Very unfortunate, very senseless. Visitors witnessed deadly Myrtle Beach road rage shooting. Oh, yeah, they called it murder beach now, I think.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 2:08:23Theo Von?

  Every place is starting to be called like murder something. But yeah, people are just shooting. They just, um, I had a friend in New Orleans that died in a road rage. It, yeah, it's crazy. It's really crazy, but it is. It's that intense moment. But as a driver, if you can play it out in your head, like you were saying earlier, how do I want this to play out?

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:08:43Theo Von?

  The truth is, you probably want that guy to get a flat tire sometime the next day or whatever. That's fine. But right now, you want to get to where you're going.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  And honestly, most of the time in those situations, I want to get as far from that person as possible.

• 2:08:59Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Like, I don't, I don't want to interact with them.

• 2:09:01Theo Von?

  Yeah, you can't be, yeah, following them. What is this? Somebody road raging?

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:09:07Theo Von?

  Oh, this guy punched open a back window. That's hard to do.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  That is hard to do.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 2:09:16Theo Von?

  Oh, this seems like a, um, oh, she just popped the trunk, boy.

• 2:09:23Theo Von?

  Damn, bro. She's carrying. Oh, she got a hatchet.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:09:27Theo Von?

  Ooh, and he hit her.

• 2:09:30Theo Von?

  Those are children.

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 2:09:34Theo Von?

  But it is crazy that one guy, he acted like they were crazy for coming after him after he went and hit their window.

• 2:09:39Speaker 01

  Broke her, yeah.

• 2:09:40Theo Von?

  But it's crazy. You would think you just leave. If somebody broke your window, that dude.

• 2:09:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:45Theo Von?

  That guy or whatever.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  These incidents are everywhere now. I mean, you, you scroll through. I mean, that's the part of it. So I, I had a weird, uh, interaction right outside my, my kid's school one day where, um, I was parked waiting for pickup. And this woman came and, and she parked her car in front of me and she was, she was backing up and I got a little anxious that she didn't realize how close she was.

• 2:10:07Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  And so I honked, but it wasn't, I mean, to me, this is what a horn is for, actually, right? It's like to alert someone like, hey, you're. You might hit me, not, not because I was mad, I wasn't, but wow, it made her mad. Like she was really mad that I'd honked at her, but what was interesting is that she got out of the car and she came over to talk to me. And she immediately started recording, like she, she took her phone out and started like videoing the, the situation. I think thinking that we might.

• 2:10:36Theo Von?

  Things might escalate.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Things might escalate and wanting it captured if it, if it did. And um, I think that like, which I, I do wonder sometimes what is, do, do phones, I don't have an answer to this, do phones de-escalate situations or do they escalate them? You know, like if, if.

• 2:10:52Theo Von?

  Right. Once the show is on now, do I have to perform?

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  Right. I, I had a soccer coach come yell at me one day. I was, I'm not, I'm not just me like yell at the fans at a game. And I've, I've often, well, I mean, he was out of control. I've often wondered, what would have happened if I'd just taken my phone out and started recording? Would he have been like, oh, I, I should back away or would he?

• 2:11:12Theo Von?

  Right. Or that would just exacerbate.

• 2:11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:14Theo Von?

  Yeah, dude.

• 2:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:16Theo Von?

  Wow. Yeah. Because that's interesting. It's almost like art imitates life or whatever. It's like, we're just wa, like if we're watching something violent happen. And then we get involved in something violent, the first thing to do then, a lot of times wouldn't even be to help, it would be to record.

• 2:11:33Speaker 01

  Right. Right.

• 2:11:34Theo Von?

  Because that's what we just saw. If we just saw something recorded.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:37Theo Von?

  Gosh.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  It makes me, I mean, and I, I truly wonder is that, I mean, there must be circumstances where that's the smart thing to do, where that is going to de-escalate.

• 2:11:47Theo Von?

  Right.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  Um, you know, where people are going to start to sort of say like, oh, I don't want to be, I don't want to be famous.

• 2:11:53Theo Von?

  Yeah. I think if someone is probably urinating in your yard or something, then you definitely, I'm going to record you and then like, oh, I'm not going to be doing this on that camera, on the.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:02Theo Von?

  Camera, I'm going to put my pants up or whatever. But I think if it's somebody who's just like. I don't know. That's a good question.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  I think part of the question is how rational are they in that moment? Right? You know, I mean, if they're.

• 2:12:15Theo Von?

  Right. They might be doing it as a safety mechanism.

• 2:12:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:12:18Theo Von?

  I'm gonna make sure things don't get out of control.

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yep.

• 2:12:21Theo Von?

  But yeah, road rage commonly characterized by aggressive driving is a factor in more than 50% of all car crashes that end in fatality, according to AAA. In fact, in a separate years-long study, road rage episodes resulted in about 30 deaths and 1,800 injuries per year.

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  This, you know, it's funny, I, one of the things that I oftentimes talk to people about, and it's like, it's the, so I did a TED Talk on anger a few.

• 2:12:44Theo Von?

  Yeah, I've seen it.

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  Back a while ago. And so like, the premise of that talk is that anger is good for you. There it is.

• 2:12:51Speaker 01

  That anger's like, good for you in all these different ways. One circumstance that I would not advocate anger is, is behind the wheel. Right? It's just, it, it feels like there's no good outcome, that it, it just puts you in a dangerous spot and better to, better to just back away and, and.

• 2:13:11Theo Von?

  Let it go.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, let it go.

• 2:13:13Theo Von?

  Yeah. What are good ways that anger, what is, when is anger healthy?

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think it's, a lot of it is, you know, if you grant the premise that unfairness exists in the world, that there are injustices in the world, and, and I do grant that premise, then, you know, feeling anger as a, is totally natural and healthy. And it's what we do with it. That is, that is most, I mean, anger, like any emotion, it exists in us for, because of our evolutionary history. Right? It exists in us because it, it encouraged our ancestors to like, fight back. And so it was a survival mechanism. And so from that perspective, it's still valuable.

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  So the same way, you know, I, I get thirsty and I get a sip of water, anger motivates me to confront injustice.

• 2:14:07Theo Von?

  Right. And you're gonna need it too. I mean, if they didn't, if we got rid of anger completely, it would be, then what if there were tyranny or something? We'd never be able to stand up to it, you know? Or what if there were, yeah.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  I mean, anger is behind all these social movements in, in really meaningful ways, right? And now, we were talking earlier about protests and social media that, but anger is what's motivating most of those in, oftentimes in, in, in healthy ways. Yeah.

• 2:14:35Theo Von?

  Yeah. Um, Dr. Ryan Martin, I'm trying to think of anything else we can cover. I think we got a pretty good.

• 2:14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we went from flushing the toilet before you, before you're done peeing all the way to getting patted down at the, by a TSA agent, by an overly aggressive TSA agent.

• 2:14:54Theo Von?

  Think we've covered a lot.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  That's a lot of ground.

• 2:14:58Theo Von?

  Dr. Ryan Martin, thank you so much, man, for coming in.

• 2:15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, man. This has been a absolute treat. It's been great talking to you and it's been fun being, being here.

• 2:15:07Theo Von?

  Yeah, I appreciate it, man. It's been interesting to just learn more a little bit about anger. And the thing that has helped me at times is that moment of thinking, how do I want this to play out?

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  Yep, that's good.

• 2:15:17Theo Von?

  If I can let that get me at that moment, when you're about to open the card or whatever, you know, you're about to go in the other room and say something, how do I want this evening to play out, this afternoon, this next hour, this next week?

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that like that has to be thinking about that outcome you want. What is your desired outcome in any situation?

• 2:15:43Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:43Speaker 01

  Is so important. And then, because the next question is, well, then how do I get there?

• 2:15:48Theo Von?

  Right.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  What is the thing I have to do to accomplish this? And, and, you know, and now the, the second piece is be having the presence of mind to de-escalate yourself in order to have that thought and be intentional about that, right?

• 2:16:05Theo Von?

  Yeah, if you can get to that thought, you're probably going to be okay.

• 2:16:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:16:09Theo Von?

  I've noticed that for myself. If I can get to that thought, I'm probably going to be okay. Cause most of the time I'm going to choose.

• 2:16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:15Theo Von?

  Let's find a way to get this, let's find a way to just get through this.

• 2:16:19Speaker 01

  Yep. And, and the, I think for people who have real genuine anger problems, they're, they're not able to get to that thought. You know, that they're so escalated in the moment. It's this righteous anger that is driving everything they're thinking about and they're not able to, to, to, to get to the place of, okay, what's the rational, healthy thing to do right now?

• 2:16:41Theo Von?

  Yeah. Cause I think preserving your peace is really key. I mean, I, there's just, everything's. Out everywhere. There's just everything is like signaling or letting you know, notification, just never ending now. I think just holding on to your peace and, and if you can remember that, how do I want this to end? How do I really want this to end?

• 2:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:00Theo Von?

  It's really good for any situation.

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  Honestly, it's, it's good for, it's good for the, the small day to day interactions. It's good for big life goals.

• 2:17:08Theo Von?

  Yeah. Business. It's like if you're calling to make a deal with somebody, maybe they don't want the deal or maybe it's not, but do you want to do deals with them for the next 10 years? What do you, how do you want things to look long-term?

• 2:17:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:18Theo Von?

  You know, do you need to be, you know, does the price need to be that? Can it be a different price over five years and, and you still have a great business relationship?

• 2:17:27Speaker 01

  Right. Yep.

• 2:17:28Theo Von?

  Yeah. Do you have to win this argument? Do you have to defeat that Pontiac Firebird that just flipped you off, dude?

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:36Theo Von?

  You probably don't.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Probably not. It probably doesn't matter in the long run.

• 2:17:39Theo Von?

  Right.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  That you win that.

• 2:17:41Theo Von?

  But how do you get through it today? How do you reach out to your spouse? If you're angry, how do you reach out to your spouse and just say something nice? Just because you know it's going to make it better when you guys get home or when you see each other again, so that they're not going to have a tough day.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:56Theo Von?

  You know, how do you, even if you're mad at your girlfriend or something, say, look,

• 2:18:02Theo Von?

  everything will be okay, you know?

• 2:18:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:18:07Speaker 01

  Thinking through to those long-term goals, what do you, how do you want this situation to be? And then, and then charting the path to get there. I think honestly, for a lot of people, the, the challenge is that they haven't, they aren't able necessarily, or haven't spent enough time thinking about that destination, you know, and, and what, and, and being really intentional about this is, this is the outcome I want. Um, this is the outcome I want today. This is the outcome I want next week. And so this is the outcome I want for this, this drive to work, right? Is to get there safely. And once you start having that thought, then it, it helps you, it helps you stop diverging into stupid, stupid directions.

• 2:18:49Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I don't have that. And so then I'm at the whims or whatever.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:18:54Theo Von?

  You know, sometimes I'm just a little bit aimless, which is okay, but. But uh, but it can be risky. Um, Dr. Ryan Martin, thank you so much for coming in, man.

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  You bet. Thanks so much for having me. This has been a treat.

• 2:19:07Theo Von?

  I appreciate it.

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:08Theo Von?

  Yeah, been dealing with some anger and so just excited to get to talk about it and um, and just think about it. So thank you for sharing your knowledge.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you bet. Thanks, man.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be cornerstone.

• 2:19:28Speaker 02

  Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take.

• 2:19:43Speaker 03

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games. Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 2:19:47Speaker 04

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 2:19:50Speaker 03

  Film for IMAX.

• 2:19:52Speaker 04

  Make them remember you.

• 2:19:54Speaker 03

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.