#680 - Ultramarathoner Mark Dowdle

Mark Dowdle is an ultra endurance athlete who just won the Last Soul Ultra in Germany, running 395 miles in just under 4 days. Mark joins Theo to talk about the mindset that helped him win one of the toughest competitions on earth and the self discovery that comes from pushing yourself to the limit. Mark Dowdle: https://www.instagram.com/mark.dowdle/ ------------------------------------------------- Tour Dates! https://theovon.com/tour New Merch: https://www.theovonstore.com ------------------------------------------------- Sponsored By: Celsius: Go to the Celsius Amazon store to check out all of their flavors. #CELSIUSBrandPartner #CELSIUSLiveFit https://amzn.to/3HbAtPJ Better Help: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off BetterHelp at http://BetterHelp.com/Theo Valor Recovery: To learn more about Valor Recovery please visit them at https://valorrecoverycoaching.com/ or email them at [email protected] Perplexity AI: Ask anything at https://pplx.ai/theo ------------------------------------------------- Music: “Shine” by Bishop Gunn Bishop Gunn - Shine ------------------------------------------------ Submit your funny videos, TikToks, questions and topics you'd like to hear on the podcast to: [email protected] Hit the Hotline: 985-664-9503 Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: https://www.theovon.com/fan-upload Mail stuff to: ATTN: TPW PO BOX 40137 Nashville TN 37204 ------------------------------------------------ Find Theo: Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend X: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheoVonClips Shorts Channel: https://bit.ly/3ClUj8z ------------------------------------------------ Producer: Zach https://www.instagram.com/zachdpowers Producer: Trevyn https://www.instagram.com/trevyn.s/ Producer: Nick https://www.instagram.com/realnickdavis/ Producer: Andrew https://www.instagram.com/bleachmediaofficial/ Producer: Halston https://www.instagram.com/halstonrays/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You ever realize that you spent your entire morning thinking about lunch? It's nine AM and somehow I'm already in negotiations with myself about how I'm gonna spend $20 on a sandwich at noon. And then I eat it, or you eat it, or somebody eats it. And then an hour later, you're just standing in the kitchen worrying about what you'll do for dinner. And that's one reason why I've been into Huell. The Black Edition Powder is a complete meal you have instead of food, not a shake on top of food. Their powder starts at less than $3 per meal, has 40 grams of protein, and mixes with water or milk in about 30 seconds. I like Huell's shakes because they're clean and it's quick.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  Sometimes I just want to make sure I have everything I need to keep going the way I want to keep going in a healthy manner. So with Huell, basically lunch went from a daily logistical problem to a thing I can solve in about 30 seconds. Make healthy eating simple. New customers get an exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code WEEKEND at huell.com/weekend. That's H U E L dot com slash weekend. Thank you to Huell for partnering and supporting our show. He's an ultra endurance athlete, known for running some of the most brutal marathons in existence.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Uh, he just completed the last Seoul Ultra in Germany, 395 miles in four days. I enjoyed my time with today's guest, Mr. Mark Dowdell.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  You can drop this down just a touch. Yeah. And if you need to move it or whatever, if something's getting weird, just do whatever you gotta do.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, dude, you're a freak, bro. Like a nice freak.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, not like a carnival one, but um, the race, the race you just won, it's called the last Seoul Ultra Marathon. You ran 395 miles in just under 94 hours.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Without sleep. It's a backyard ultra.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  For our listeners that do not know, can you explain what a backyard ultra marathon is?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, a backyard ultra is when you run 4.167 miles or 6.7 kilometers every hour on the hour until one person's left. So it's also, people call it the last person standing. So you have, you know, 59 minutes and 59 seconds to complete this four mile loop. If you run it in 45 minutes, you get 15 minutes of rest. If you, you run it in 52 minutes, you get eight minutes of rest. And you just keep doing the same loop over and over again until either you timeout, you physically can't go anymore, or you mentally just are done. And the real obstacle of this race, yes, is the physical aspect to it, but it's dealing

• 3:10Speaker 01

  with the unknown because you don't know when the race is gonna end. And so it's a constant battle between how do I stack up against these other people? And it's, it's a big game of trying to bring yourself back to the present and not compare yourself of how you perceive your pain, because we're all experiencing pain out there.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  But I can only feel my pain. And then I look at somebody else who might be doing a good job of posturing.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  And I will perceive myself as worse off, or less than, or not capable enough because of a perception that I've created in my mind about who they are compared to myself.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  And so the thing I love about this race is yes, it's a physical thing, but it is like every loop, I have to make a commitment to say, the story in my mind that I'm creating is not the full truth. And can I take one more step? And it is a constant recommitment to that process of like, I can do this if I take one more step, that's evidence I can keep going. And it's a, it's, the race has blown up a lot over the last couple of years. And I think a lot of it has to do with how accessible it is. Like if you've never run a mile in your life, it's more digestible to say, I can try and

• 4:36Speaker 01

  complete one loop of four miles over, I'm gonna sign up for a half marathon and do months of training to get to that point of being able to run 13 miles or 26.2 miles.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  So you might have a lot of people signing up just like, oh, I can do four miles and I can at least do one loop.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Yes. And that's the beauty of it is we're all on the same loop at the same time. And so I go for almost four days and somebody out there went for three loops.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  And the relationship to hard is equally as difficult for that person as it is to me. It is both of us trying to figure out how far can we go? And then when we come up with obstacles, how can we just take one more step forward?

• 5:17Speaker 00

  You said like the story in your mind that you start to create, that I guess it's like a story of like defeat or that I can't like, what, what, what, what stories do you notice your mind start to create?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I, I think it is, I'm not good enough. I'm not capable enough. I'm not worthy enough. This race, the outcome of this race is gonna determine my value or not. Like all of these things that I know aren't true. And, and this is the power of having friends like Cody who's here with us, or my wife, or my friend Kellen who was out there at the race, is every time I get to go back into the tent where they're sitting, we, I know in my heart of hearts, even out when I'm on

• 6:09Speaker 01

  the course and I'm 60 hours into the race, and the story starts to be crafted in my mind of, I'm not good enough. I get to go back to a tent full of people that say, not through their words necessarily, but through their actions and through the trust we've built is like, dude, whatever happens here is not gonna change how we feel about you, how we love you, we're gonna be proud of you no matter what. They just want me to be able to make a decision I'm gonna be proud of at the end of the day and be able to honor my word, honor my commitment of taking that step when I know I'm able to.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  And so the, the narratives are constantly going of like, trying to convince myself that I'm not done yet, even though every logical reason to stop has presented itself.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  Wow. So it's almost like you stop and get like an emotional hydration in a way.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  So the funny thing is, I think about it in terms of these like highs and lows of the first 24 hours are always the most difficult. Because I haven't invested enough into the experience to really see the benefit of that outcome, or going through that hellish experience to be worthy or valuable of any sign. Once you get through those 24 hours, you start to get into the experience and you start to feel the effects and you're like, okay, let me just kind of settle into this, this feeling, this experience, and really test out what it's really trying to teach me about myself.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  And there always comes a moment, because after you kind of get out of that first lull, you start to slowly decay. And it's from a physical side, it's a mental side, it's a spiritual side. And there's always a point in the race where I need to cry.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Like crying is my release point of all the tension, all of the burdens that I'm holding on to, all of the pressure that I'm putting on myself about this, what this race means, what it means about me, what it means for my family. And uh, so 60, 62 hours into this race, I called Cody and I called another friend and I was just like, I just need to verbalize that this is so hard.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  This is so hard. And the problem with it being so hard is I know that I'm not gonna stop. And because of that, that means I have to keep walking into this pain and I have to keep going towards it. And that sucks.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  That sucks. That realization that you know it's gonna be hard, you can't imagine it being more difficult than that, and yet you have to say, I'm gonna stay right here. And when I can verbalize that with somebody that knows, loves and trusts me, and they can sort of reinstate the belief of why I'm there, and I can cry, it's almost like I'm rejuvenated in that moment because I've released myself of all this external pressure and I've let myself and my body release itself of that tension. And then I'm like, oh, okay, let's go.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Oh dude, yeah. After you cry, you feel great, which is crazy. And dude, I've thought about this for a while, actually. Crying is like, if you're like crying because like you did, something didn't happen, like that's maybe one thing, but crying, it's almost like, it's sweat from the weight that we carry inside, dude. It's like sweat out of my eyes. It's like, if anything deserves to sweat, it's this, it's this discomfort, it's this weight, it's this like, whatever heaviness or shit, whatever I'm holding on to, you know, whatever I can't understand or can't fathom, or can't like matriculate enough to be okay with me, you know? Like, those are the things that's like, please God, pull this sweat out of me, like, let me release this.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  And if it comes out of your eyes, that's fine, you know? Like, yeah, dude, but just to get that out, bro. I heard, I heard, uh, I heard you say that at hour 60 of an ultra, you'll find out who you are.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  Not what you think, not what you believe, not what other people think you are, but you'll meet the person that you are out there on that course.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 00

  And that's why you love them, dude. And no joke, bro, that got me out of bed to go work out, bro. It was 4:30 in the morning, I probably should've stayed in bed, but it had me that hyped, dude.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Just like hearing you talk about like this relationship, uh, like with yourself and just confronting that part of us, um, that we don't wanna, just, and, and just confronting this thing of quit, you know?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's so easy, like it's easy sitting here talking about the experience and saying, yeah, I, I am who I say I am. But what does it actually look like practically out in real life? And, and to be, truth be told, it's easy to do it in a backyard ultra for me because I've had experience with that. And let's be honest, I get, I get applauded for it. When I do it out on the course and I have success with it, people will applaud me for it. And so there's a certain level of selfishness in that, to be frank. But the true essence of where I build that from and how I'm able to do that out on the course is, like I, I say this all the time, like, I don't

• 11:35Speaker 01

  get to determine if I'm a good friend. My friends get to determine that. I don't get to determine if I'm a good husband. My wife gets to determine that. And they base that off of the integrity and character that I have. And where am I getting that from? I get that from scripture. I get that from Christ. And how do I live up to that? That is by me continuously doing the little things in my day to day life, even outside of like the training, the running, the stuff that gets me prepared for that. But honoring my commitments in all the little aspects of my life, because this conversation right here will show up in my next race, because the story that will then be crafted is like, you were on the Theo Von podcast, and you talked about how you are a man of your word.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Are you going to do that right now when it's really tough to do so? And that's scary, because I can't run from that version of myself out there. I have to make a decision when it's most difficult, when it's most challenging. And I have to say, I am going to be that man, or I'm not, or I'm going to allow the excuses that are rational justifications to convince me that I can walk away before it's my time.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, like, yeah, just, just hearing you have this relationship kind of with your own integrity. You know, I think it's such an important conversation that needs to kind of be happening in the world right now. And I shouldn't say that. It's an important conversation that I need to be happening with myself, you know, um, and, and I'm, so I'm just so glad that, uh, that you're here kind of sharing some of your thought processes and, and just us even thinking about that. Yeah, because I like to believe I'm one person, but live kind of like another person.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  And that creates a conflict in me.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  And it creates an uncomfortability.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  And at times it creates, you know, it's created an unreliableness even to myself.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  And dude, that a lot of times is like, when I'm at my, when I'm with myself, that is, um, it's not embarrassing, you know, but it's just like, uh, I, I can do better.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  You know, and I, and I want to. So I'm glad that I notice it more, but it's, it is an uncomfort because it's like, yeah, well, it's like, I'm this, but this is what I do. And if those things aren't enmeshed with each other, then I'm going to, I'm going to be in a state of discomfort.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Well, can I just say something on that? Like, that

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Does that make sense what I'm saying?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  It does hundred percent. And I relate to that so completely, because I'm sure, at least what I'm pulling from that is there's a, a burden to that almost, because there's a recognition of there are parts of our lives that we feel disconnected to our action and our word, there creates this discomfort. And that can be burdensome. That can be like, man, I'm, I'm not living up to who I want to be. And that can almost bring us down.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  But there's a, there's a flip side of that of there. A lot of people don't think like that. A lot of people aren't aware of that. And there is a, a true blessing. And one, we're never going to be perfect, Theo.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Like that. So we gotta remove that and give ourselves grace and understand that

• 15:01Speaker 01

  through the awareness of that, we can either beat ourselves down, or we can build ourselves up and say, I can do better. I will do better. And if I fail, I'm going to continue to try and work to, to be better and have people in our lives that are going to hold us accountable and build us up. So that we can still, that we can continue to live that way. But it's a blessing and a curse, because when we are aware of that, we can, we can, man, we can beat ourselves down.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  The trap. Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. For me, it's like the discomfort kind of became just sometimes too much. Like, but also, yeah, it's like, if I hold myself to too high of a standard, it's some type of, of a perfection, right? That's such a trap.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  We can't, we can't do it. It's impossible.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  And my, dude, so much of my life, I would hold myself to this level that was impossible to reach, right? It was impossible to reach. So that way I was always failing. And then in always failing, it would match with some old belief of mine that I was always, that I was a failure anyway. And so it's like, it's weird, like in setting, in, in aiming for perfection, I was always setting myself up for this old magnet that was just deep inside of me somewhere. That was like, you're, you're not worth it, or whatever, or, uh, yeah, you're a failure, you're no good, you're ugly, you're, there's something wrong with you, right? And so, and yeah, man, that's been a big trap in my life. And I have more awareness about it now.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  I think the place that I'm in right now is a, a lot of the, uh, kind of giving myself grace just for the times that I've held myself to, to, uh, to some level of impossibility, you know? Unrealistic expectations.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you ever feel like giving yourself that grace is giving yourself, like, cutting yourself slack that you don't deserve? Does that make sense?

• 16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, let me think about it for a second. Do I ever feel like giving myself grace?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Like, there's this perfect standard that you're holding yourself to.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  And if you fail, it's reinforcement that you're a failure.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  And at least that's the story in, in your mind. And there could be another story of like, I'm going to give myself grace. And the negative story of that is, oh, you're just giving yourself grace because you can't hold yourself to a higher standard. Does that make sense?

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does. I don't, yeah, I don't do that.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  But I do, I do see exactly what you're saying.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't do that. I think it's just like, um, I just feel like I should always be able to figure it out. It's this eternal thing of like, man, why can't you figure this out? You can, like, it's not even like an encouraging thing. It's not like you can do this. It's just like, why can't you figure this out? You can figure, you know? And so some of that is realizing that I can't. But then also, there's a gift in it, is that I don't have to do things alone anymore.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  And that, starting to realize that is going to change my life.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Where'd you learn that?

• 18:04Speaker 00

  I think just when I was a kid, it was just like, uh, yeah, there was just nobody to rely on.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  You know? And so I just, you just start to rely on yourself, I think.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  I guess, where did you learn that you could rely, like, other people, you could rely on other people? What was the turning point for that?

• 18:19Speaker 00

  It's been coming new into my life, I think. I think some of it has come through, like recovery. I've been, uh, just focusing back in on my recovery a lot more. Um, probably developing a better relationship with God and my higher power, you know?

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  And just realizing that I'm not alone.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  You know? And it's, uh, we're supposed to be talking about racing. Uh, but this is okay.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  This is great.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Hey, this is the biggest race in the world, you know? You know what I'm saying?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I think it's like that. And just like, yeah, leaning on other people with like, what's really going on, you know? And not being afraid to tell God what's going on. Like to the word.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  You know, not to be like, uh, even sometimes words and language, I'm afraid to use that. I wouldn't even want to use it around God or whatever.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  But then it's like, you gotta, you know what I'm saying? Like, you gotta put them in the fine print of a prayer, you know? So it's like, I think, yeah, it's like that. Yeah, it's like, I think, kind of being louder with the fine print of my prayers. If that makes any sense.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  It does. Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  So, yeah, thanks for having me think about that. I didn't even know I needed to think about that today, man. It's got me sweating.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  That's okay?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. One of the things I was so like, that really like woke me up, uh, to you was just some of your, um, just the ways that you look at that stuff, because it's so important, you know? And I think just having a bit, I think just having a bigger relationship with myself, like a real relationship, like what am I really doing here? You know? Like, who do I, you know what I'm saying? Like, asking myself some of the tougher things. Um, and, uh, and I want to, I want to get into that. And I know that you, uh, uh, know about your journaling practice and that you have this, that you've kind of developed this relationship with yourself. And I think that's really cool. And I want to learn more about that. Um, but I want to learn more about the race first.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Is that okay?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's totally cool.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Okay, cool. Thanks for being here, dude.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thank you for having me.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  So, so you talked about like, if you finish a loop first. So the loop is, let's, let's just say it's four miles to make it easy for people.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Yep, cool.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  So the loop's four miles.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  And then at every hour on the hour, you have to go back out for the loop again.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  And the contenders that continue to show back up for that loop, they're still in the race.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  And it keeps going on until only one person can do the loop by themselves.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  Got it. And when you, is, is there a strategy in finishing that loop early? So you have time to, um, eat or, or, or hydrate or communicate with your, with your tent? Or, or do you want to finish like right up at the minute? So you're just go right into the next run? Like, take me into some of those type of strategies.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's There's different strategies for different people on how they like to run the loops. I personally like to run the loops in 50 minutes. And pretty consistently, almost like a dog that's being trained, I will come in at 50 minutes. I'll lay down immediately. I'll sleep for five minutes. And when I say sleep, sometimes it is me just laying down and resting. Other times, sleep deprivation will take its hold. And I will get like these fragmented images flickering, like these photographs cycling through my mind. Like, I can't even hold on to them. They're just flipping so fast. And it'll, it'll happen for, you know, five, six minutes.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  And then at 57 minutes into the hour, there's a loudspeaker that'll say, three minutes runners, three minutes. And that is your wake up call, Theo. That is like, I'm awake enough to hear that, but also asleep enough to like be getting rest. And so then I'll wake up at that alarm. I'll sit up, I'll sit in my chair. My wife will feed me. She'll feed me pancakes and syrup, steak and eggs at three in the morning.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  This is so Roman.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it's great. It's great. Yeah. And, and I'll eat for about two minutes, two and a half minutes. And then I'll walk to the start line and you gotta be in the corral when that bell rings. So if I'm in my tent and they ring that bell, I'm out. So you gotta be in that corral.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  And do you have a coffee or something right before you go out?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Oh, coffee, Red Bull.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Oh, so you're just like a construction worker.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Pretty much. You should see the stuff I'm eating and drinking out there. It is like, you know, a kid in a candy store. You're like, let's go.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  And will you put a piece of gum in your mouth? Do you keep something like that to keep you like going? Like, are people putting zins in? Is that a thing that people are doing?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  People do zins and nicotine out there. I don't. I do it in my daily life, not entirely proud of it, but I don't do it during the race. Cause I'm like, this is a reward for after, when it's all said and done.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  And it can kind of mess with your bowel system out there, you know? So there's a thing called the poop loop. So you have as much time in that hour to take care of, you know, sleep, nutrition, going to the bathroom. Some people, they'll know they'll need a poop loop. So they'll run the loop in 45 minutes so they can take a poop. And then they'll be ready to go for that next loop.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Can you tell when someone's on their poop loop?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. People like to announce it too. It's like, all right, I'm going for a poop loop on this one.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  So they'll just speed it up?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Or there's sometimes there's a porta potties right outside of the corral. So as the loop starts, you are able to use the two porta potties that are right there. And they'll sprint right for it and.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Just to get it out of the way on the course?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. They'll do it right there in the first like few steps in the porta potty. And then they'll run, you know, if you're gonna run a poop loop, you wanna get it done before you have to run fast. That'd be tough to carry with you if you're trying to run pretty fast. But then there's other things like, I'll get in and I'll do a 45 minute loop. And I will get entirely undressed. I'll stand in a bucket of water and my wife will shower me. Like full service, servant, wife of like being able to be there and help me through this entire experience. And she's like, yep, we gotta get you showered up. We gotta get, you know, Aquaphor and lube on your feet. And in between your armpits and stuff.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  So is some of that like a caretaking ritual almost in a way?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  So there's an emotional value to that as well?

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  Cause if you feel cared for, then things are possible.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And, and in those dark moments during the race, really it's not something that she says to me, but it's more of a look where I can say, Lucy, this is really hard. And sometimes she'll say it, more often it's more of a look of like, as long as you're in that darkness, I'm gonna be right there with you. And she'll just hug me. And it's like that hug tells me everything's okay because I'm not experiencing this darkness alone. There's somebody who might not be outrunning the course with me, but she's back here as invested, as concerned, as, you know, experiencing the hard times as I am. And that allows me to keep going. Cause somebody is there with me.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. You have the power almost of two people when you're doing it.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yes. Cause there's love and commitment there.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's beautiful, dude. Yeah. And just the, the ability, just like when someone is like saying something's hard, just not even to tell them something and just give them a hug. You know, my brother does that sometimes, like a couple of times over the years, I've been going through it, dude. And I like, one time I pulled over by this donut shop and like, I was just like, what? Just, it was just like one of those times I was like processing old stuff and I was just like balling in my truck. And my brother was like, uh, and, and I was just telling my brother like what was going on. And, um, he's like, I can just sit here with you and not say anything. You know, he's like, I have like 20 extra minutes. I'll just sit here with you and not say anything.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  But I just want you to know that I'm here, you know? And dude, I melted, bro. I like melted things that were like hurting from like, I don't even know. Like my feet got smaller, bro. I'm fricking, I was just loose. I mean, I was just, all these came up. You know what I'm saying? My shoes didn't fit later, but it was just like, like, just like all this old stuff came up. Cause it just, that kind of moment, it never happened. Not trying, I'm not trying to take away from your story.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  It's, it's, but that's what it's about. Like, that's why I run. Because I think it's such a good depiction of how, like, I really feel this responsibility to share what I experienced on that course. And how I genuinely think I have the success I have is because we get those moments. And that's the recipe for success in life. Like, how good did you feel after those 20 minutes?

• 27:14Speaker 00

  It was honestly, in a weird way, one of the neatest times of my life.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  And you feel connected to your brother. There's, and no words need to be said. And it's like, what else? What else are we chasing after? Like, the win is great. Don't get me wrong. I love it. And it's part of the reason I'm sitting here with you and all of that's great. But like, what I take away from that race and the races that I get to do is I get to create stronger relationships with the people that I love. And do so in a way where we're all working towards this same mission together. Not to win the race, but to come out the other side of it transformed by this experience.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  Bro, as you're saying that, like, um, we have this guy coming on named Bishop Robert Barron. He's an active bishop and he's also a historian, like a Catholic historian. And then we had this guru on the other day, Guru Dev. And both of them, I've heard say this thing that when people have like a friendship or a relationship, that's fine. Like if they're friends, it's a friendship is good, right? If there's a relationship or a husband and wife, that's good. But when they have a common interest that moves them forward, those are the things that keep people together and keep friendships and relationships together. So even as you're saying, it's like you run, right? But it brings people into your world and gives them something also to care about.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  It gives, um, it gives your friends something to be associated with and like, and then now they're a partner in it. And somehow it's like, so it's like, I think when people, it's like taking action in some way, I think helps. Sometimes we don't realize like the actions that some of us take or, uh, or things that can keep us together with someone else. And then once somebody else is on board, now you're taking that action together, right? And you have like a journey in the world. And sometimes that journey just gets you through a few years. Sometimes it'll get you through a lifetime, you know?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  And there's no, there's no action too small for that to happen. Like someone doesn't have to go run 400 miles in order to experience that. They can just sit in that car, asking a brother for help. And that is, that is the most important thing I get from running 400 miles. And we get to do that in our everyday life if we take action, like you said.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. So much of it's action. I quit letting my thoughts, like I start to notice my thoughts more. I've been meditating a lot and I'm just having, finally I get to see what's going on, dude. I had no idea. I was a damn video game and now every now and then, I have the control in my hands. And I'm like, oh, interesting. Where even just a second, I start to notice some thoughts. I'm like, those are trash, bro. These are recyclable. That's a thought that they played yesterday. It's like, but I just, I don't know. I'm not saying I know anything. I'm just saying like, that's just been like an experience I've been having. And it's been, it's felt kind of rewarding.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. It just felt like, uh, I don't know. It's almost, it's starting to make me a little bit wanna know myself even more. And that's, that's cool, but it's also a little spooky.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you could wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing, what would that be? For me, it would be probably just listening better and not just offering an idea, just listening. If somebody asks for a suggestion, maybe offer something, but otherwise it'd be a batch of ears. I think that's what I would like to do. That would just be something I'd like to do better. Better is a feeling defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on global emotional wellbeing with thousands of therapists and millions of members

• 31:06Speaker 00

  in over 100 countries. It's progress. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/theo. That's better H E L P dot com slash T H E O. Um, to get back to racing, how, uh, do you plan the calories and hydration you're going to intake before you go out there and when you're out there?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes and no. I, so we go into a race having a plan that we hold loosely onto. So, so much can happen in four days of running. The weather can change, uh, the, you know, my appetite can change drastically. And so if I had a, a certain like, I'm going to eat this, this loop, and I'm going to have this amount of calorie intake, and I'm going to have this amount of sodium. To me, that would stress me out because if it didn't go according to that exact plan, then I would think something's wrong, I'm going to fail.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And it's like, we are so adaptable because we are made that way by a creator that we don't need to have everything planned out to, we're not, we're not built to know all the answers. And so I approach a race very similarly to that where it's like, I have an idea and obviously we bring the kitchen, as Lucy and I say, we, we literally bring the kitchen, like rice and beans and potatoes and steak, and you can mix and match all of those to make a different meal. And my wife has gotten really good at just predicting what, based on my mood, what I'm in the appetite for.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause it's almost like you come home for dinner like 100 times.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Four times. So what do you even feed someone that?

• 33:02Speaker 00

  Who is this guy? So get a new job. You're putting us out.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Uh, so that, you know, it, there's not a, a detailed plan, but anything that I, I guess the thing that I do most is like every loop, I'm eating something. So even if it's a handful of chips.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Or, um, you know, the best is obviously the steak and the, the, you know, uh, what's it called, orange slices and eggs and stuff like that.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  But that's not too heavy on your system in a race?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Not really. So I train it by, uh, I'll, I'll run four or five miles to a diner and I'll shove my face full of food and then I'll run home and I'm like, this is race prep. But you get used to it out there, you know, and that's kind of the way it is. Um, yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  Oh, you, you were talking about like, if, if things are too planned out, that it creates, like, once there's a plan, and then if things deviate a little bit, it can create like a lot of uncertainty. It's almost like when you're learning to ride a bike and the wheels start wobbling. It's like this, like, oh, we're trying to like be too specific. Um, and especially in a race when things can be different, right? Things, obstacles can come up like you're saying. But I saw that you didn't even, you barely even made it to the race on time.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  Your flight was delayed.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that, honestly, that, and I'll, I'll talk about it, like, that is what gave me the confidence and further reinforce this belief that the less, know what you can control and understand it's not a whole lot, right? You can control your energy and your attitude in a search situation and you can be prepared to handle what's coming up, but ultimately we have far less control than we think we have. And so the race started on August 14th at 2:00 PM German time.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I had a.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  And the Germans are, there's.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Dude, they're freaking dialed.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. They don't even do a leap year.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Really?

• 35:00Speaker 00

  I made that up. But it would seem like.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine. So I had a presentation for a company that I had committed to back in March.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  And it was in Alexandria, Minnesota, which is two hours north of where the airport is. So that was at 8:30 in the morning. Our presentation, get to the airport for a 1:15 flight. And, uh, there was a layover in Chicago and brother, I am on the tarmac, sitting in the plane for an hour and a half. And I'm watching my flight to Frankfurt fly away. I'm like, I need to be on that flight because it's a four hour drive from Frankfurt, which.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  So you just missed it?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  I just missed it because.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Oh, the layover flight, so you flew in one.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Flew into Chicago.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  You were sitting on the tarmac, watching your flight to Frankfurt go.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yes. And, uh, so they rebooked me for a later flight, but I, I wouldn't have been able to make it to the race in time. So I'm on the phone with Lucy and my friend Kellen and the race director, Kim. And we're like, okay, how do we make this work? And, uh, the plan shifted from Frankfurt to flying me into Amsterdam, which is closer to first to now where the race was. And then Kim was like, all right, the only way that we're going to get you to this race on time is if we schedule a private jet from Amsterdam to Moester or Moonster, and then it's an hour drive to the race. So I get on the flight, fly into Amsterdam, I'm racing through security and border patrol.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  And then I get to the tarmac for the private jet and I'm explaining to the pilots who are like, who are our age and they're just like so excited, telling them about what I'm doing there and the situation, I'm like, dude, we gotta go. So we're up in the air and we're down, I'm like, man, that was, that was really fast. And we're getting off the flight and the pilot looks at me with a little smile on his face and he's like, don't tell anybody I said this. But that 45 minute trip that it usually takes to get here, we got you here in 20 minutes.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  What?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  And he's like, you gotta promise me one thing, you won't quit on that course.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Really?

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And what's crazy, so Kim's dad picked me up, we drove an hour to the race and I was there 15 minutes before the race started.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Was everybody already there?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Everybody was there in the starting corral, they'd already done pre-race announcements. And there's a, there's a photo of, uh, you know, a bunch of us, everyone's in their race gear, they got their water bottles and everything, and I'm standing in jeans with a suitcase. So I quickly got changed, I did a quick shower, got my race stuff on, and, uh, by the time I got into the corral, there was two minutes to go to the race.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Did it almost add like a new freedom in a way?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Oh, it did, yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  And you, but the fact that you're able to process that as that, that's the important thing, like if, if when a moment gets tough, if we can like manipulate it enough to have our perspective be, uh, have hope and possibility in it. Cause some, yeah, cause a lot of times it can go the other way, you know, you easily could have got on that other ship where it's like, this is, I'm not going to be, and you're barking orders, you're being like this and that, and now it's a nightmare.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do I have control of? That's what I kept trying to remind myself of this situation that was happening of like, I don't control the flights.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  That's hilarious. All those guys are so happy.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  They're stoked.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  They're like, this guy will be here for one day.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  So I had put it in the back of my mind that all of those, a lot of those guys are friends, so more of like the people I didn't know, I was like, everybody's going to discount me. Everybody's going to say that I'm, I'm not going to make it that far because look at all of this. I mean, even though I was doing a decent job of controlling my emotions, uh, it's still like an emotional roller coaster, you know? And getting to that race, it was like, this is a perfect example of how this weekend is going to go because if I can go through this experience with a smile and see it as every obstacle is just an opportunity to try something new and experience this adventure

• 39:23Speaker 01

  in a different way that is not the way I envisioned it. It's not the way everybody else envisioned it, but who's to say this is a worse way to experience it?

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a trap I've gotten in a lot. It's getting a little better, but that's the trap sometimes. It's like, this isn't how it's supposed to be.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  And you can, you can almost feel your body get like tight over it. That feeling just sucks, man.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you get out of, after a while, you just get tired of you, like it just has to be a better way. And there is, you know, that's a crazy thing, there is a better way. But I think it takes practice and noticing when you get to those moments and then being able to start to, you know, kind of slowly adjust. Again, I'm not preaching, this is kind of the like, yeah, you just can't hold on so tight, you know? Cause you get exhausted, you hold on to anything so tight, you get exhausted, you know? What is happening to your body during a race, right? So like, are there parts where your body, like, are your muscles just like vibrating? Like, do your feet get swollen? Does your, like, what, what kind of happens as you go through?

• 40:28Speaker 00

  Cause four days of racing is, that's a lot of racing. Like, that's the most racing.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Like that's kind of the most racing.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  It is the most racing. Um, so thinking about it, um, I kind of think about it. I'm not a big car guy, but like, if you take a minivan across the country, you're going to go at a different pace than if you take like a Corvette. And if you're taking a Corvette, you're going to have to let that engine cool down because you're, you're revving it so hot. And so I'm taking the minivan across, across the country in these races. And what I mean by that is I'm, it's like a 50 50 jog walk. Like I'm walking a lot of this race because I'm trying to play the long game of how can I slowly

• 41:22Speaker 01

  deteriorate my body over a long period of time instead of coming out hot and, um, and having that engine burn super quick.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Right. Cause you just have to finish the miles within the hour.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  So you could do it as fast as you want, or you could do 58 minute loops and just essentially walk as much as you possibly can. And there are times where I'll do that. But the, the body, it's not so much of a, like a muscles will cramp or it's more of like fatigue. And you know, the feet start to hurt and they start to swell. I mean, I still got blisters all over my feet from the race because of just the constant friction.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  So it's, it's not like a muscle soreness. It's more of like a body fatigue and everything's wearing down. And the thing about this race is it was on an old military base. So 65% of the course was this concrete. And so you're like, your bones were just like, oh, sore and achy and, and really feeling it. A lot of people had hit problems and man, I saw a KT tape, which is like this tape that's supposed to like help keep things in place. One dude had it all the way up his neck and down his back. That was like, I'm like, brother, baby, it's down to Colin. He's getting airlifted out of his chair. Like they brought in a helicopter just to lift him up.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Oh, that's crazy. Dude, I would have that stuff. You would just see my eyes, dude. My whole body would be that tape, dude. I would have my whole body taped up.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  It'd be a mummy out there.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  I would be just a hopeful mummy. That's the only thing I would be. Um, so it's not like your muscles, or your muscles start palpitating like, or do they like, it's not like that.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  No, cause.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Do you get scared of your heartbeat or something? Like, is there any like things that start to happen that you get scared of that your body like, can my body, like my actual body?

• 43:25Speaker 01

  I haven't so far reached that point. And I think it's really important for me, the runner, to know that limit because I never want to put that responsibility on somebody else.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Oh, so then your wife's responsible, your friend, like suddenly they have to make a decision because you went too far.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Like my responsibility is to know my limit. And sometimes that might be, at least in the past, when I was just starting out with this, I thought my limit was one thing. And then I'd wake up the next day and I'd be like, man, I'm really disappointed that I thought that was my limit. And so it's a trial and error of trying to figure out what that limit is. And, but I, it's not like, I would never want to put that responsibility on my wife to keep encouraging me to go out and then I end up in the hospital.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  So, um, I haven't found that limit. I don't know what it is, but I have a, a hope and a faith that like, I'll know that when it comes up. I'll, you know, a great example is Harvey Lewis. He's.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  He's another runner.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  He's another runner, 50 years old. He's a legend in the sport. He's a guy I highly respect. I love this man. Um, he's set the world record in this, in this format. And one of the things that he said after the race, because he bowed out at around 40 or 50 loops, um, and he had just got done running the Badwater 135, which is another extreme race. But he said that the only thing that was, would keep him in the race was his ego. And I thought that was.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Of this race, you mean?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Of this race. He, when he tapped out, he's, his body was just banged up from a race he did two weeks before. And he had made the statement that the only thing that was keeping, would have kept him in the race would have been his ego.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  Oh, that's fascinating.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  And to hear someone like that, who I look up to, who's a legend, who can make that decision.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  And he's vegan. He's doing it all in vegetables.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  He's doing it all on vegetables and Coca-Cola, baby.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  Dude, I eat a bunch of mushrooms. I can't even, dude, I can't even make it out of my cousin's basement, dude.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  He's got a, he's, so after he bowed out, he gave me a bunch of his juice. And I was like, man, maybe this is what's keeping. He's got carrot juice and beet juice. And I was like, this feels good. But just watching him make that decision gave me confidence of like, I don't need my ego to keep me in a race.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Got it. So even if the greats are making a decision like that, and their thought process can, can kind of like have a scale that understands that, then as a runner who really cares about this, hopefully I'll have the same scale, you're saying?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and exactly. And, and I think to like further that is like, why am I out here?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Am I here to win the race? Cause if I'm here to win the race, then it's worth dying to win this race. But if I'm not here to win the race, if being here is something deeper and more meaningful, then the outcome of this race doesn't determine my experience here. In fact, I respect Harvey Lewis so much more because he made that decision, because he didn't put something the external or materialistic above what's truly important to him. And I respect him even more for that.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like I think a lot of like, in my own life, I've had things where it's like, and I'm not trying to sound like a downer. Sometimes I talk about stuff and I think it seems like such a downer. Like my life's.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  I'm not getting that impression.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  You're not?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Okay. I just try to share about like things that I think about or feel. Um, and sometimes those things are like, you know, you're navigating kind of the other side of like pretending everything's awesome.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Um, but it's like, sometimes it's like, I thought, yeah, just that the success, like that will be enough, you know, that, and, and, and with that is the focus or like, you, you do start to lose track of the relationship that you're having with the experience, you know? But I haven't done a bad job of that, but I have thought that at times. It's like, well, if I can just prove, it's like proving myself. Here's what it is. It's like proving myself, but to who?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Like who was I prove? Like, cause I don't always know if it was to me.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  Sometimes I don't know who it was to.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  But it was just like, and sometimes it could just be this societal arrow that you get put on as a child and shot through towards this prove yourself.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  You know? Um, but that's something that, um, that I, that I reflect on sometimes. And then, and then I think even just like now, I'm just starting to see a little bit more like, well, yo, who do I want to prove things to as my life goes on? You know? Um, yeah. It's just an interesting conversation. And some of it is just like, yeah, what are these conversations we have with ourselves? Cause they're, they're the most important conversation, you know? And so often I don't really have them or I don't, I don't even, I have them, but I don't even notice what they are too, at times.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  You know what? You have a beautiful way of creating imagery that I so much appreciate.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  The arrow analogy of, I think oftentimes we think that, so like that you've been shot out into the trajectory. It's like, I wasn't even the one pulling the string.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  And we forget that when we take control of the bow, that's not the only arrow we have in the, in the bag. We get to pull out another one and let go of that identity or that journey or that path. That's, we didn't even, someone else created that path for us, you know? And so it's like, I've tried and dude, I'm not perfect at this. I fail at this. And, and I have, the thing I'm appreciative is I have people that help ground me in this of like, the success is great. But ultimately, like, there's only one audience that matters and that's God.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  And we aren't going to live up to that perfect standard. But we can do our best, but know that like, no matter how much success I have in running, it's not going to make me more valuable as a person. No matter how much I try and do good, I'm not going to be perfect. And there's no way. And the thing is, we don't have to be. We're not

• 49:41Speaker 01

  called to be perfect. We're called to recognize our own imperfection and strive to be a little bit better.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just, it's about this. Yeah. What is this relationship that I have with myself? And also having a relationship with a higher power, I think helps you start to have a relationship with yourself. Um, I think anyway, I'm just kind of navigating some of that space, you know, trying to navigate it at a deeper level, you know?

• 50:07Speaker 00

  There was a loop out there. You get, you've been kind of criticized online. I don't know if it's criticized, but you've been, uh, let's say, and that's not fair to say.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  No, it's fair.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Maybe it is. You've been documented online as having sort of this wild loop. I think it was loop 87, where it was down to you and, uh, Elo.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  Um, another competitor and he's German.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yes, he is.

• 50:29Speaker 00

  Um, and you guys were the last two left.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  In this race. And there's a part where it's like, the camera that they have to show this, it kind of makes you wonder if it's even real or if like, is real set this up? You don't know exactly. Yeah. You don't know exactly what's going on, but there's this infrared camera of you two guys on a trail. I want to show it right here. Um, it's short.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  It's one of you guys stopping when the other one stops. The lady goes, oh no. The way she said it, the way it connected in everybody's mind, it's the same way when you're watching one of those Animal Planet videos. And the cheetah comes in and gets the other animal, like the animal that can't get out of the river. And it's like, she's, oh no, she said it just like that. So I think that that kind of got cycled into people's like energy with it. But some people would say it looks like you could be stalking or like you're kind of like monitoring your prey or you're like, you're pan- pantomiming, right? And, um, and the, yeah, what was going on there? Like what's going on out on the course? And, and what do, and what psychology are people using out on the course out there?

• 51:50Speaker 00

  If there's any, um, when it comes down to just a couple of competitors?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think in the backyard, it is not simply a physical adventure or competition. It's physical, it's mental, it's emotional, it's spiritual. And the people that do the best in this sport are able to handle all four of those things. And when it gets down to, you know, all throughout the day, everybody is playing a mind game, whether they know it or not, they're trying to look stronger than they are. You know, they're coming out and they're doing faster loops when maybe, you know, it's just a way to posture how strong they're doing.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  Hiding limbs.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Hiding limbs.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Secretly vaping.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Funny enough, I did a race in June and a guy was vaping. I was like, brother, how are you doing this? He's like, I'll tell you how I'm doing this.

• 52:44Speaker 00

  On cherry lime ice, dude, that's how I'm doing it. And we'd like to sponsor that guy.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, see he's a thick mod too. It was like, not like a jewel or something. It was like puffing clouds.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Oh, like one of those, like the front of a train, like one of those big dogs? Jeepers.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  It was crazy.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  That dude's pushing coal through his lungs, bro.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  I don't want to mess with that guy.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's this guy. That's one of those West Virginia backyard runners, bro. Hey, look at that dude or woman.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  But, uh.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  So loop, loop 87, it was, uh, an opportunity to be competitive in a way that the sport has always had, but maybe hasn't been televised in that way before. And I think the thing I go back to is like, you know, you don't tell Dennis Rodman how to play basketball.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  You prepare to play Dennis Rodman. And I, from all of the sports that I've ever played, I've always been a guy who likes to use my energy as a way to celebrate the activity that I'm doing and use competitive advantages here and there to gain an advantage. And that's really all it was. It was, uh, you know, I saw him sprint out of the gate, sort of trying to show me how strong he was. And, uh, I said, I'm right here with you.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  And were you guys talking, does he speak English?

• 54:14Speaker 01

  He speaks a little bit of English.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Okay. But there was obviously, even if there's not verbal communication, there's like, um, communication of ambiance or peacocking in a way, there's like that kind of energy, right?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was, uh, I mean, he was, there were, I spoke no words to him out there on that loop. In fact, I think him and I had one conversation all day and that was when there were four or five people left and I was like, hey, this is awesome that we're still here. We just made it three days of running. But out, out on that loop, yeah, there were no words exchanged from me on my end. He did sort of say like, what the, what the heck are you doing? And, uh, and his, I think, way of trying to show his strength was, uh, speeding up. Like he's a really fast runner and I think he tried to break me off in that moment.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  And that was his form of communication to me that, okay, if we're playing this game, you're going to have to keep up with me. And I played that game back with him.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  And so your energy was just what, like, I'm right here still?

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm right here. I, I can run fast loops too.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Dude, it reminds me like, uh, I'm friends with this, uh, UFC fighter Dustin Poirier. He's, um, and one thing that I always didn't like, one thing I like that he does is when he's, even if he's over on his side during the, like, uh, on the breaks in between the rounds, even if he rests with his hands on his knees, he always is looking over at his opponent. And I think about that every time, like I'm in the gym, whatever I'm doing, like if I start to break down, like rest a little bit, like just to pick my own stature back up.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 55:51Speaker 00

  Just to remind myself, just a physical reminder of like, I'm going to keep going, right? He always does that. Yeah, I think that's, uh, that seems normal to me that people do that kind of stuff, you know? I mean, have you seen it a lot out there and with other racers, like when you guys get down to just two guys?

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's all, like Harvey and I, we've raced against each other three times now this year. And, uh, I was at a race here in Franklin at the end of June called the Midstate Mile. It's a one mile loop every 20 minutes until one person's left.

• 56:22Speaker 00

  Wait, let me say it again, it's a one mile loop?

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Every 20 minutes.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  Every 20 minutes until one person's left?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's still that format, but like not four miles every hour, one mile every 20 minutes.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  You must get a ton of entrance in that.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Into that one? Well, the kicker with this one is it's in Franklin and there's 340 feet of elevation per loop. So you're climbing this massive hill and then you're descending down and then you're climbing another massive hill and you're descending down. So it's super challenging. And that's the one where I saw the dude puffing clouds. That's what was blowing my mind because it wasn't like a, a flat course where's a friendly jog. It was like, you're huffing and puffing up this hill. I'm like, how are you doing this?

• 57:02Speaker 00

  Dude, it's just somebody from Goodlettsville, dude. That's all it is, bro. It's chill.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  But Harvey would do things where he would sprint out.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  He would sprint out of the gate and, uh, that was his way of saying, I could be here all day.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  You know, and so there's all this little stuff that's going on. Crews are trying to gather information from people, you know, all this little stuff. Every movement and posture that you have out there is you knowingly or unknowingly sending a signal to yourself and to other people how you're doing.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Bro, that's the world too. And especially if you are, like, I'll notice if I do fasting, dude, on the third day, dude, I can tell you if you're going to have grandchildren or not, right? You just know what's going, like every little thing means something like, like communication is so much easier because it's, uh, it doesn't feel sedated by kind of food and stuff like that. Does it feel like a level like that when you get to like, when you're running it, like after you've been running for so long, does everything feel like very acute and real? Or does it feel just bizarre?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Exactly how you feel on day three is how it feels on day three and four for me out on the course. Like, I don't understand, um, the last two loops of the course and after the race, the communication that I was having with my team. And then, you know, I was talking, uh, to everybody, uh, about my race afterwards and gave this speech, none of that was me. I have no idea where it came from. I say it was the Holy Spirit because I could not think straight out there. But this was, there was this general peace that I had not experienced really in any place in my life. And all I could, it wasn't like I was thinking, I was just experiencing and living in that

• 58:57Speaker 01

  moment without any expectation or pressure or desire to leave that spot. I just wanted to be right there. It was like I could feel the experience and feel the importance of it, but also step outside. I've, I've heard, uh, comedians talk about this. Maybe you've experienced this, I'm sure you have, but like where you're on stage and you're almost seeing yourself have the experience and you're, it's not affecting you from like a, a negative, like it's not getting into your subconscious. Like you're just, you're, you're experiencing it and you're aware of the experience and how beautiful it is.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  But you're still in.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  And you're still way in it.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh, like.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  That's pretty cool.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  It's awesome.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  That's a twofer.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 00

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• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  We hear a lot about hallucinations while running, actually. Have you experienced some of that?

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  I have, yes.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  You have?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  Anything good?

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  I saw teddy bears hanging from a tree one time. I saw some Native Americans. I saw, um, there was a race where there was a road loop and there was an entire middle school of kids sitting cross-legged cheering me on, putting their hand out for a high-five.

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  No way.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  It was wild. There was a, are you a Harry Potter guy?

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Enough, yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  So you know those big spiders?

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  There was one race where it was through a tunnel of trees and all of the trees started to turn into these massive spiders. It was nuts.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  God.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  It was, you know, yeah, that, exactly.

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, that's them Snoop Dogs right there.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  And then...

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  Dude, that's that Tim Burton. That's beautiful. Wow.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  But then there was like, uh, out on, in Germany, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a physical depiction of anything like that. It just felt like I had been, which is weird to say, because I was on that course for days on end, but it like felt like I had been on that course before. Like this nostalgia feeling was not like something in passing. It was like this constant state of nostalgia of like, I've been here before. I've seen this course before and I couldn't explain it.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  Dude, I think everybody else could explain that you just, you just run around it 300 times.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, I think it's understandable, but yeah, I mean, that's, yeah. Can you bring up different hallucinative experiences that happened when people was jogging? Of the strange and intriguing world of running hallucinations. I just want to get a few of these out. Emily Foy, Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc. It says, "I was filling up my water bottle from a sheep's trough. Red flag."

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  I think that caused the hallucinations.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  I mean, that's a good call, dude. First of all, if I'm drinking water with sheep, I'm already not doing good. "I was filling up my water bottle from a sheep's trough on the mountain at mile 70. I recalled when I saw tiny severed heads at the bottom. I looked around at my fellow runners expecting a similar reaction and panic, but they were all utterly calm, filling bottles and chatting." Oh, that would have pissed me off the most. "I'm staring at baby heads in a trough and you're over there just..."

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Giggling?

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, just talking about how the Vikings are doing. Get out of town. "Try as I might, I couldn't make the heads turn into stones, which my rational mind knew they must be. I couldn't stomach drinking, turned around, apologized to a golden retriever, AKA a pile of dried grass, and I tripped over and continued up the mountain. It was broad daylight." That's that free shit I'm trying to get on. This is another one. Jen Scottney, uh, North Traverse Race. "I was 120 miles into 190 mile race and hadn't slept. Going into the second night, I started hallucinating really badly when it got dark. My head torch was bouncing light onto the limestone walls where cats and human faces were appearing.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  The night was so clear, the stars were twinkling all around, but I was hallucinating that they were around my shoulders. On my own at 2:00 a.m., everyone else tucked up in bed and here I was, and the Yorkshire Dales shouting at the stars to get back into the sky." That's mad. Let me see one more here. This is John Hunt. "I was going into the second night, so was pretty wasted by then, and I was on a country road, and this is in Thames. Uh, I was on a country road with trees either side. I was about 150 miles in and remember thinking the trees looked really strange with weird bits hanging down, so I stopped and had a closer look. To my amazement, it looked like someone else had strung up thousands of rotisserie chickens as far as the eye could see.

• 1:06:55Speaker 00

  I was so confused by it that I took a closer look and went to grab one. Alas, it was just a leaf." Huh. Dude, one time I was with my ex-girlfriend and we went bike riding. This was in Germany. And dude, we went in this park and some dude, he was like a, I guess like a weiner guy or whatever. He was standing in the park and like, he had, he had no clothes on, right? And he was like this tall white guy. He was like, and he was like kind of spinning his weiner at us, dude. And dude, this is the worst part, her fricking bike broke down right there and I'm like, ugh. And I thought she was kind of doing it on purpose just to like be around this guy, like, not around this guy's weiner, but like to see it more or whatever. And then the bike was like really broke, dude, and I'm like trying to like, so then

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  we had to like walk this bike, but the back tire wouldn't move. So we had to like drag, walk this bike past some dude like, like legitimately spinning his weiner, like at a decent gait.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Like creating vortex around that thing.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Like I would say this, a butterfly couldn't land on it, right? A hummingbird couldn't even land on it probably. So...

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  That's some...

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  But anyway, I don't know why I told you that. So that's why I don't run. But anyway, I just wanted to kind of get that out there. Are there people that, who, who does this sport, Mark? Like, is it business guys that just are looking or become like, um, end up making a ton of money and they're looking for something new to do, right? Is it, uh, like, is it a certain body type? Like, um, who are the, are there like stereotypes, you know? And not to say there's anything wrong with that. We're all somewhat of a stereotype. Are there stereotypes that are out there kind of, do you see?

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yes and no. There's a few different stereotypes. I guess like the business person who's that go-getter that they have to do everything a million miles an hour. That's, that's also, that's a person that's out there is like, I'm an achiever, I'm gonna go achieve this other thing in this world called running and ultra-running. There's also people that, you know, they struggled. It's a big place of recovery. Uh, people that have struggled with addiction, alcohol, and they have that addictive personality and running has been the cure for them to not have that outlet.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  You know, running does a great job of spiritually lifting you from maybe the burdens of everyday life. And so I think a lot of people find refuge in that. And, you know, and there's people, people like me who, who really have this desire to see what they're capable of. And I think, you know, Ryan, uh, the driver, he, he asked a really great question yesterday and it was on this same line of thinking of, do you think anybody is capable of what you did out there? I think the short answer is it's, it's, it depends because there's a guy, Mike Egan, who is in a wheelchair.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  He's lost both of his legs, uh, because he was in service, uh, for the United States. And he did the BPN Go One More, which I was doing in April, and he did this last sole race in Germany.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  And he's in a wheelchair the whole time?

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  He's in a wheelchair the whole time. And...

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  Shout out Mike.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  If you would have told me before I ever met Mike, what do I think he's capable of? Be based on my own imperfections, I would have said, I don't, how can he go more than a few loops? And then I witnessed him persevere and overcome every obstacle on that course until rain totally destroyed it in the one in April. And he was dragging his wheelchair, just the heart of a lion. And he comes out and in this race, he sets a PR, I think he went 31 or 32 hours at this course.

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  No way.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  And

• 1:10:59Speaker 00

  Let's go, Mike.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  And so I see a man who does not allow his circumstance or the things that have happened to him, limit his belief about who he can become.

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  And so I think anybody who has that belief about who they are, like I look up to Mike so much because he has shown me what is possible when you face extreme obstacle. And so I think anybody who has that belief about themselves, then they can, as Mike said, find peace in the storm because they're willing to put themselves out there no matter what. And so I think anybody who has that ability to look at life as this is not happening to me, this is happening for me, I'm going to figure it out. And Mike always says, forward, onward, onward we go through the obstacle. And that's who I think is like, that's who it attracts at the end of the day is people who want to find out who they are.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  Amen, dude. Wow, that's fascinating. And so even like if the course is uneven and stuff, he still manages it.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he finds a way.

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  God.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  And what's funny about this too is Harvey, gosh, Harvey's a great guy. I could talk about him all day, but in the midst of what happened, uh, the trail, so 40% of it was trail and there were rocks all over it. And Mike was having a hard time going from the concrete to the rocky trail. So over the course of, you know, 40 hours, Harvey got a group of us together and would take one rock off the course every loop. So Harvey picked up like 250 rocks over the course of his

• 1:12:36Speaker 00

  Just trying to make it more fair?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Just to make it easier for Mike.

• 1:12:39Speaker 00

  Right. Want to make it more fair, really?

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Because it's kind of like, dude, yeah, have him, like give him at least every now and then give him a little side alley.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? The guy's earned it.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 00

  Give him a HOV lane.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Gosh, I can't imagine how difficult that is.

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  Wow, that's fascinating, man.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  But like that guy is the man.

• 1:12:59Speaker 00

  Right. Thank you for sharing about him. Yeah, can you pull that article up again, Trevon, please? A Texas-based veteran now holds the Guinness World Record for most miles covered in a wheelchair in 24 hours. On November 10th, 2025, Mike Egan, a bilateral amputee and wheelchair user. And what does bilateral mean? It means, I don't know.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Bi, I don't know. Both legs?

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I said, I don't know, but covered 152.37 miles over 21 hours. Wow. Completing 720 rotations around the course at Morgan's Wonderland Sports Complex in San Antonio with his family there to support. Let's go.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Guys.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  Oh, and he has two children too. That's awesome.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  He's a former Marine, man. Thank you for your service, dude. Wow. Mike Egan, oh, look at him there with that stash rocking, bro. Mikey got that word curtain on him. Let's do it, dude. Bro, thank you, bro. Thanks for sharing about him.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  Um, I, I want to get into like, what are some of the different types of courses that they have in backyard running? Like, what are some of the tougher ones or more unique ones? Just so that, uh, listeners can understand like what backyard ultras are like.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, the backyard ultra space is still growing. Um, one of the more tougher courses is the original one that happens in Bell Buckle, right? It's Bell Buckle.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  Bell Buckle here in Tennessee?

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's called Big's Backyard. The originator Laz put it on, I think in his backyard and it takes place every year. It's, I think 400 feet of elevation per loop. And so there's courses that, you know, I know of one that I do in, in Wausau, Wisconsin, that's, uh, 500 or 610 feet of elevation per loop.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  So elevation adds a ton of?

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Oh, it makes it so, so much more challenging, so much more challenging. So you could have like a flat course like BPN or this course in Germany where it's going to be demanding for, for different things. Like a flat course, you're not changing your running motion very much. So it's just staying in one place for a long period of time and that causes friction there. But then there's higher elevation courses where the race might not go as long, but you're climbing, you know, essentially Mount Everest in 24 hours and your quads are banged up, your hamstrings are banged up, your muscles are a lot more banged up. Um, and the more this sport grows, the more we're going to see challenges like, hey, man,

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  come to Minnesota in January, let's see what a course looks like going across a frozen lake, you know, or go to Arizona in, you know, uh, June or July, which might be a little bit dangerous, but you'll, I think what we'll start to see more of is like what you see in motocross or some of these other sports where the temperature and environment you're in will dictate the course environment, which will determine what strengths and weaknesses an athlete truly has.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  Wow. So it's going to start to see more strengths and weaknesses, uh, a disparity of strengths and weaknesses because, uh, more, um, variables will be introduced.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Speaker 00

  Ooh, that's going to be interesting.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  So we're still on the, we're still on the, the cusp of what that could be, but a lot of the courses generally are probably within 100 to 300 feet of elevation per loop.

• 1:16:24Speaker 00

  Got it. And what are some of the severe temperatures that you've already been in? Have you been in any snow ones or whatever?

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Not in the backyard. I did a race in January called the Arrowhead 135 and that's a, a historic Minnesota race, takes place in International Falls, Minnesota, which is right on the border of Canada.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  Is that by Lake Itasca at all?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Uh, it's near there, near there, but, um,

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  Cause the Mississippi River starts right up there. You can jump right across it.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you could.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  Dude, some lady took me there one time. She was awesome. She, I don't know if she listens sometimes, um, and I won't say her name, but she took me there one time and let me jump over the river.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  Which was pretty cool. Yeah. Cause I've eaten things out of that river.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Out of the Mississippi River?

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Hopefully more upstream.

• 1:17:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I've had some.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Downstream, it gets a little bit.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  I mean, look, I put my tongue downstream a few times, brother. It doesn't end well, you know? So one day at a time. Uh, oh, that's you right there.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:26Speaker 00

  Doing ice bearding.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  So it's a, a race, you run 135 miles, you got to carry a bunch of supplies on you.

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  On a sled and, uh, the temperature this year was minus 30 degrees at the start line, Fahrenheit.

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  And how many miles is that?

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  That's 135. So that took 30.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  Oh, so that has a finish line or the?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  That has a finish line. So I, I, I haven't done any extreme weather in the backyard.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  But I have experience doing extreme weather, at least in this capacity.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  So wait, that was negative 30 degrees?

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  That, what that, what you just saw was from last year's race, which was 15 to 20 degrees. This year's race was minus 30 degrees. So I've done it twice.

• 1:18:07Speaker 00

  And how much does that affect things, that weather difference? Do you even notice it after the beginning or what is that like?

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Um,

• 1:18:13Speaker 00

  Or is it more of just a visual effect?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Well, the, the warmer race, I think is more difficult because the snow becomes like sand. So it's hard to, your feet kind of move around and it's nice because you're not as concerned about frostbite, but when it's super cold, it's like concrete running on and like a softer concrete, but it feels much better to run on. But man, my hands were getting cold. I was shoving them in my pants all race long, just trying to keep them warm. And it really becomes a, a, how can I moderate the temperature of my body so that I'm not dying out here type of thing.

• 1:18:47Speaker 00

  And does it ever get, you ever run so much, it just feels like homoerotic or anything out there? Like, does things start to happen where you're like, I just ran like out of my own sexuality or something like, you know what I'm saying? How weird does things get like that, like mentally?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does never turn sexual in my mind, but that's something I can think about on my next one and get back to you on.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  If you're really interested about that.

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  Don't get back to me. I'm just wondering like, if you're out there.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  I don't see guys shaking their weener like you do when you run, dude.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  Bro, it was one guy and I think my girlfriend even set it up or whatever. Anyway, I don't even know what we're talking about. Yeah, I just didn't know because sometimes at certain altitudes or something, people are more likely to be gay. Different things can happen. I didn't know if um, people can run so much that you could like morph or whatever. Oh, I want to get a little bit of your backstory. Um, so you, you were a all state high school athlete and you played college football. When did running start for you?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I played collegiate football and lacrosse.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  And running started for me the spring of my senior year when it was club lacrosse. We actually played in Nashville. We played three games. And we lost two out of the three games. One of them was to good old Kennesaw State.

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  Nah, uh, from Georgia?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. If that's where Kennesaw State's from.

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  I don't know where it's from.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  But hey, we'll go with it. Kennesaw State, Georgia. And we never lost to Kennesaw State in our program's history. So it was a tough one. And it was the first game of the weekend, but we're, you know, bussing back. It's a 24 hour bus ride back. And I'm sitting in the back of the bus like, we suck. I suck. We're not going anywhere. Throw in a pity party. And my brother sent me the Joe Rogan, David Goggins podcast. And I'm just listening to this man defecate down the back of his leg, pissing blood and he's getting up and he's running. Another 30 miles to complete a hundred mile run around a track. And it was the first time it had planted a seed in my mind about

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  some person who was not allowing their situation to have them throw a pity party. Like, we lost the first two games of the year. We still had a whole season ahead of us. And I'm listening to this man break himself and not make an excuse about it. So the first thing I did when we got back at three in the morning was I went out for a run.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  And that sort of just continued over the spring. And when I was no longer an athlete, when I graduated school, you know, truthfully, playing football and lacrosse was a great escape for me to take out the anger that I had. You know, I struggled a little bit with alcohol in college of just using it as a coping mechanism for not being able to sift through my emotional state.

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  And it would be this, the cycle that I was living in was

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  get drunk on a Saturday night, wake up with regret and shame, walk around with that regret and shame. Not want to deal with that, bottle it up, come to Saturday game day, inflict that pain on somebody else so that I didn't have to feel it anymore. And then celebrate that by more drinking. And that was just the loop that I was living in.

• 1:22:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Eventually, alcohol and the decisions I was making came to a point where I was like, I either need to make a change or I need to, like, it was just a point where I was like, dude, I need to figure out my life. And then after school and I had no other thing to keep me occupied outside of work and life, running was a thing that was there for me. And I just noticed early on that the more I would run, the more I would come back from a run and I would feel that heaviness in my chest feel almost like gone, like the weight was off my shoulders. I wasn't carrying around that anger. And so early on for me, running was this tool for me to

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  kind of work through a lot of the emotional stuff that I was going through because it was, there was this

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  this practical imagery that was going on is like, the more I ran and the more I moved forward while I was thinking about the issues and the problems in my life. It was like I was moving forward mentally through them and also physically through them because I was thinking about them as I was moving on my run. And so it, it allowed me to kind of work through things and leave behind stuff that I wasn't as proud of. And move forward through things that I wanted to become, ideas and conversations and just a life I wanted to live coming out of college.

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. When you get to the end of a run, the thoughts and feelings that you have are good. So it's almost like you like have, you've just sifted through and you're holding things that are good. Like if you're excited, you call somebody like, I'll whistle at somebody's cat or whatever. Like you'll do all kinds of shit after a run. You're fucking rocking.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't know. You're left with, you, you've kind of run into the best parts of you.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 00

  Okay. Sorry. Go on.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  No, that's a

• 1:24:11Speaker 00

  So that was it?

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  That's it. Like that's, that was the start of it. It was just like,

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  So that's how it started?

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and then, you know, I signed up for a marathon and I think the competitor in me was like, all right, I did a marathon. Can I do 30 miles? Can I do 50 miles? And started doing some charity runs to raise money and awareness for a nonprofit for Love Like Lori Legacy.

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it was one of your friend's mothers that passed away?

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. She passed away from pancreatic cancer in 2020.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  What's her?

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Lori.

• 1:24:40Speaker 00

  Lori Weber. Lori Weber.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:42Speaker 00

  What was the guy's name?

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Blake.

• 1:24:44Speaker 00

  Blake Weber.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that man, that, I think that was a real turning point for me and how I related to running and how I could basically have a relationship with this sport that was outside of outcomes and rewards, because that's all I focused on in college. Like if we, the goal is to win a national championship. If we didn't win a national championship, I was not worthy. We never won a national championship. So does that mean like, I'm going the rest of my life thinking that I'm not worthy of anything because I didn't get an outcome? And through these Love Like Lori runs, it was beautiful to be able to,

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  I don't know what it's like to lose my mom. I'll never know what that feels like, at least up until now, right? And at least not in the way that Blake lost his mom. And there's a lot of pain and a lot of hurt and a lot of working through emotional stuff where through these runs, we would get to walk and run side by side. And I would experience this physical pain that would force me to go internal and kind of deal with it that way. And at the same time, walk alongside a brother who was also going through a different type of pain. And it was almost a, a point where we could now connect on how to talk and move through this pain together, even though they're different things.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Because pain, pain is pain, right? If you're hurt,

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  that's all you're experiencing. That's all like, but we are connected by pain in a way where we can start to, like if I'm hurting, I'm better able to understand if you're hurting. If I've never experienced pain or hurt, I don't, I don't know how to relate to you. But when we can experience it together and be open and vulnerable about what we're going through and what we're struggling with. It was a phenomenal opportunity to see pain as not something to avoid, but to really like, all right, let's pull up our sleeves and like, let's get into this. Yeah. Let's, let's figure out what this means.

• 1:26:49Speaker 00

  Amen, dude. Yeah, man. Going on, like, I'll go on a walk with a friend or something like that. And it's like, that's when we get the most like connect, you know, it's like when you're just something in action. And they say our body like holds so much of our pain. So of course, if you're taking some action that is starting to call, that will like in turn, like make your body have to process some pain. Then it makes sense that it could also process some of the pain that's actual emotional pain that's being held in.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:19Speaker 00

  You know, I never really, I don't know if there's science behind that, but I'm sure that there is. But anyway, also, I don't know exactly what I'm talking about, but I never have either.

• 1:27:30Speaker 00

  I've heard you talk about using journaling as like a, um, I don't want to say modality. I don't know what that word means, but I think I do. But as like a, I guess it almost is like a written, like a confidant on your journey. Like I've just heard you talk a lot about journaling and how you use it and how you've used it on your journey of, of like kind of self-discovery.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:27:52Speaker 00

  Can you kind of take me through some of that? Like what, what that experience has been like?

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so when I was going through, I talked about that moment in college where I had to reevaluate and actually take a look at, maybe it's not everyone else. Maybe it's not every situation. It's me and my actions.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  I was nudged by our athletic trainer to go see a sports psychiatrist that would come to campus on Thursdays. And her practice for me was to get a journal and start writing in it. And what I noticed that I've been able to go back and read and see the process of my thoughts over a, a period of time is,

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  How hard I was on myself? How the voice for me back in the day was like, "You idiot, you effing failure." "How could you, you said you weren't going to do this thing and you did it again." And like, I would, I was so adamant about like, "Okay, I'm not go-" you know, college kid, create, the, the biggest sacrifice I made in college was, uh, my junior year for New Year's Eve, I said I wasn't gonna drink hard alcohol, but I was gonna drink beer, man, like, cuz, yeah, like, I'll make a sacrifice, but not one that's enough where it's truly a sacrifice.

• 1:29:09Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  And, you know, maybe, uh, maybe three months of like, doing a good job on that, I'd have some hard alcohol and I would just beat myself up over it. Like, "I can't believe you did this again, blah, blah, blah." And I guess the more I wrote, the more I was able to understand what voice was playing in my head and recognize that, "Dude, maybe this isn't even my-" like, "Why would I talk to myself this way?" "I wouldn't talk to you this way, I wouldn't talk to a friend this way." And so to see it all laid out and then to understand, one, I'm not gonna be perfect. Perfection is not something I can achieve, so I have to stop trying to chase that.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  It's not possible and if I'm ever going to grow as a person, I have to release myself of this pressure of the need to be perfect or even the thought that I can be, not possible.

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, and when I hold myself to that, I'm holding other people to that.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:09Speaker 00

  And it keeps me away from people. It keeps me away from like, it keeps me away from so many things, you know? Cuz you're always in this place of like, there's some, of like, uh, "This isn't enough" or something could be neat, something, I know something needs to be different.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, well, and I think about my, the relationship with my life, the more, the times we've grown the most is when we've worked through conflict. The imperfections. And it's like, the imperfections are beautiful. They allow us to see ourselves in a new way. And when we can allow somebody into that experience, we can help each other find the best parts of who we are through our imperfections. And so journaling has been a really phenomenal practice for me to, one, allow the thoughts, whether they're positive or negative, to get down on something so they're not stuck in my head, rattling around, controlling, like, I wanna be present as much as I possibly can.

• 1:31:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  And if I got all these thoughts in my head, even if they're like, really cool ideas, they'll, they're stuck in there and I wanna get them out so I can just leave them there and I can come back to them at a later time. So journaling has just helped me navigate a lot of the emotional stuff that's going on and also put together plans of, of who I wanna become. Like, okay, if I know this isn't the voice I want, what type of voice do I wanna have internally? Who do I wanna let into my life that, uh, is, is gonna hold me accountable, but also, uh, help encourage me and build me up? And how can I be that way for other people? Like, who have I been neglecting? All these, like, just life stuff, there's, you know, just-

• 1:31:49Speaker 00

  Those are good questions, man. Yeah, dude, I, I was like, I'm working with my sponsor right now and I have to write like a fears list, like, things that I'm afraid of, dude, and it's crazy, dude. Like, the things that I'm really afraid of, you know?

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  You don't have to talk about them specifically, but I would never ask you to do that. But do you, are you, is there a fear that you have of actually pointing to the, the, the deep fears that you have? Like, say, there, uh, like, I can get that way myself, that's why I ask, is like, almost afraid to know the thing you're most afraid of because then it's there?

• 1:32:29Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 1:32:31Speaker 00

  Like, would I even be brave enough to write that thing I'm most afraid of?

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Even if it's just for you?

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  Right, cuz then it's still, it's-

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Then you can't avoid it anymore. That's where I get to.

• 1:32:43Speaker 00

  Dang.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  What are your thoughts on that?

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  That's frickin' wild, like, if there's a tiger behind these like, dangerous kittens I've written down, dude, like, if there's a mama cat in the bag, bro? Bro, if there is, I'm not gonna make it, bro. I wrote down, like, a lot of mine are like, um, I'm trying to think, some of them are like, kind of topical type things, like, I'm afraid I'm ugly, I'm afraid I don't like, like, um, I'll never, uh, have like, the physique that I want or I'm afraid, um, you know, uh, I'm afraid I'm not gonna be able to like,

• 1:33:21Speaker 00

  uh, figure out my own stuff to be able to be like, successful in a marriage, you know? Um, and some of them aren't as strong as they used to be, but some of them, like, I mean, I probably have like, 20 more. I think I wrote down like, maybe 25 things that I'm really afraid of. Let me think of what's a real, real one.

• 1:33:44Speaker 00

  You know what I've always been afraid of, man? I've always been afraid of that I'm wasting everybody's time.

• 1:33:50Speaker 00

  And I don't even know where that comes from. But it makes everything else tough because it makes everything else feel like it has to happen fast. I've always been afraid of that. And I don't even know if it's a, I, I write it as a fear and maybe it shouldn't have been written down as a fear, but it was just like a thing, but it's like, something that like,

• 1:34:10Speaker 00

  yeah, when I put it together, I'm always afraid that I've been wasting somebody's time. My whole life, I've felt like there's this to-do, like, I got given a to-do list at like, six days old and there's like, 200 million things on it. And I'm, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:24Speaker 00

  Like, it's an invisible, like, like, "Oh, you're late." Like, my whole life, that's been like,

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  Somebody like this in the distance.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  And it's like, what? But, you know, I, I don't know, so that's probably a bit like, yeah. Or maybe I'm afraid I'm wasting their attention? Maybe that's part of it, too. Yeah, like, if you're gonna give me your attention, I don't wanna waste it.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:34:50Speaker 00

  So that puts like, a lot of like, I think probably especially with, with, with dating, when I was, when I was like, when I was in high school, college, like, that put a ton of, like, in my twenties, it put a ton of energy on that. Cuz it was like, I don't wanna wait, you know? So then you gotta figure everything out pretty quick and that doesn't allow for like, anything to really, you know, kinda grow. It makes things hectic. I don't know, I'm just thinking, some of this, I'm just thinking out loud, you know?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  One thing that I've noticed through this conversation that I, I really appreciate about you is you're unafraid, whether you're doing it on purpose or not, of like, speaking out loud and working through these thoughts in real time. I, there's no expectation that you need to have the perfect answer or like, "Man, you're working through this thought," and I've noticed a few times you said like, "I don't know anything." You know a lot and the way that you think through life, that in and of itself is extremely valuable. So I just wanna encourage you in that.

• 1:35:47Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Like, that, that is super, it's helpful for me to recognize that I don't need to have all the answers.

• 1:35:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I'd get, I would get afraid to speak cuz I didn't know, you know? I think at times, or you have to, like, I don't know. Like, sometimes, yeah, you feel like you're, like, well, thanks for saying that, dude.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I used to, I feel like I was better at doing that. I used to feel, I think, um, even with podcasting, I think it started to get like, you know, you have a pressure to wanna do good or to be, be at a certain level. And so I think sometimes I got, you know, I don't know, yeah, maybe sometimes at times I was like, "Oh, well, I need to be able to know more than," you know?

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Who, what do we know about anything, though?

• 1:36:32Speaker 00

  And it's our first time, dude, how often, bro? My, uh, my, my friend Megan, she's a therapist up in, in Portland and she's always like, "It's our first time." It's like, this is our first time being alive, like, that we know of, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, and we're like, we're all are under so much expectation. But our society puts it on us and then we, you know, some of us do, but yeah, it's like, yeah, I used to do a better, um, at times I've done, I've done, I feel like I've been a little more patient with my own thought process and I used to enjoy that.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:08Speaker 00

  And so, thanks for the reminder to even like, yeah, it's a good thing, I, I, I wanna get back to that a little bit more. Like, being like, "Hey, I'm okay, I'm just figuring this out."

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:17Speaker 00

  You know, that's pretty cool.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  It is pretty cool.

• 1:37:21Speaker 00

  What, I, I wanna talk to you about quitting.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:37:24Speaker 00

  You had like, I'm paraphrasing here, but I've told this to like, 10 people in the past week. I'm like, he says that when he's thinking about quitting, he'll think of himself like, two days later or something, in, in like, a comfortable space with as much food and as much like, love and, and attend, whatever he needs will all be there. And, and he asked that person, "Should I quit?" Or, what, what, what, what do you say?

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I just forecast that comfortable version of myself that's out of the painful experience and I asked that version of myself, "Would he be proud of the effort that I put in if I stepped off the course right now?"

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  I think more often, at least every time I've asked that question, I can't honestly look at that person-

• 1:38:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  And say, "You did everything you could out here." And it, and it's my way of removing myself from the pain because the pain and the discomfort is, is a narrative. It's this like, thing that's trying, like, we crave comfort, we crave to get out of discomfort. It's hard for us to do that.

• 1:38:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  And even when we're in the midst of it, it's like, that's when it's most difficult. So I try and pu- pull myself out of it and-

• 1:38:49Speaker 00

  So you'll be running and you'll have this, will you actively take a process of thinking?

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Bro, I will lay down on the course and I will put my head in my arm and I will visualize myself that, like, whether it's a hotel, whether it's, you know, a friend's house, I will visual, visualize myself there.

• 1:39:08Speaker 00

  Could be a spa?

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  And, yeah, it could be a spa. And, uh, I'll just, I'll just ask that version, like, "Hey,

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  are we doing everything we can out here?" And the answer is always, "No, you have more in you." Like, that version would say, "Dude, get up and keep moving."

• 1:39:30Speaker 00

  That version's also just chilling at the house, dude. I respect that version and I know what you're saying, but in a physical way, that version is like. But no, I hear what you're saying though. Like, yeah, with that version, like, is that version gonna? Just to have a, but the biggest thing is just having that communication.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Speaker 00

  Like, there's in two days, there's another me.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:53Speaker 00

  That's in a different space. And how does he view what's going on here?

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Because it's like, it's a different version, but it's the same version.

• 1:40:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  That version still has to live with the decision that this version makes.

• 1:40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  And dude, that's life.

• 1:40:09Speaker 00

  That's life.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  That's life. It's like whenever we're confronted with a difficult decision.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  If you can pull yourself out, whatever you decide to do, the future you has to deal with those decisions. As long as you can be proud of it, no matter what the outcome is, you're good.

• 1:40:24Speaker 00

  Um, have you developed a, cause I'm sure you probably face a lot of moments that you wanna quit.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:40:31Speaker 00

  Right? Have you developed like a relationship with the part of you that wants to quit?

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:40:38Speaker 00

  Like, you know what I'm saying? Does that voice come along so much? Cause like, say I'll be lifting weights and like, even this morning, I, I, I, I got up real early and I got my, got my stuff done and, um. I noticed like, okay, there's this early voice in me, I wanna quit.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:40:52Speaker 00

  Stop. And I'm like, sometimes I can just breeze right through that voice. I know that's just bullshit. That's a hitchhiker. That guy doesn't even, that voice doesn't even have a home. That thing is just some lame ass quitter voice out here, yeah, with a thumb up, right? That voice isn't shit. That voice is just like, it's eating chips, first of all. Um, so I know, but then I'll start to notice, I'll just start to notice some of the, uh, some of the secondary ones. And so I don't like, but I'm, at least now I can notice that first one.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:41:23Speaker 00

  It's just like, it's not, it's total like placebo.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:26Speaker 00

  But what are, what are the ones that you, that you notice? Cause you've gone to some depths that are pretty intense to keep going.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So very similar to you, like that, those first 24 hours, that voice and that person that wants me to quit is like that comfort quit, where it's like, eh, I haven't really invested enough. And, you know, let's just like, let's just step off. But it's easier in a way to get over that, cause you sort of, you can call out the BS. You see it like, like you said, it's a hitchhiker. It's not, doesn't have a home. The deeper you go in, the more I feel it is a, a direct confrontation with who I am at my core. And so the deeper you go, the more it's hard, it's the, the more difficult I feel like it is to sift through.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Am I actually making an excuse in this moment? Or is this something I seriously need to consider? Because, um, I'm going real deep and dark in this moment. Um. I don't see it necessarily as like, like a psycho where I'm seeing like two versions of myself in my mind, but more.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Can I take one step? Like, can I just sit in this painful experience and know through experience that there is light on the other side of this darkness? And have faith, have faith that I will get there as long as I continue to move forward. And so

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  it's more of just combating that narrative and all the other narratives that go on and say, I'm looking at my feet right now.

• 1:43:06Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  If my feet are moving forward, that is evidence that the story in my mind is not the full truth. Can I just keep looking at my feet, move forward?

• 1:43:17Speaker 00

  And will you do that sometimes out there?

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:19Speaker 00

  You'll just sit there and watch them move forward?

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  I'll just watch them move forward.

• 1:43:22Speaker 00

  Even if the inside of you in your head is like, I can't do it. Your feet are saying, we can do it.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:26Speaker 00

  Wow. Because usually it feels like it's the other way around when you quit.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  In what way?

• 1:43:32Speaker 00

  Like, isn't it like, sometimes it'll be my brain, oh no, maybe not.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Well, your body like breaking down and, and.

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  But that's a real quit. That's like, you can't do it.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:42Speaker 00

  Um, dude, that's, ah, that's crazy, bro. So you just keep proving to yourself with one next step that you can, until your brain follows suit again.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and it'll come back around. Like.

• 1:43:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  The narrative will be like, oh, he's proved it over the last 20 hours. We can stop feeding him this BS. It doesn't mean that you've completely overcome it. It might come back around, but it is, it's that right there. It's like, okay. Uh, I, and like every step, it, it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So it's like constant evidence. It's constant evidence. It's not, until I make this loop, I'll be able to prove to myself that I can go. It's how can I break it down?

• 1:44:26Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  So that I'm giving myself evidence so fast that the narrative doesn't have a, an opportunity to like, build on itself.

• 1:44:33Speaker 00

  Bro, that's wild. Yeah. Because sometimes that thing is so strong, you need that much evidence.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they say that in like recovery programs all the time. They say like, you can't, um, think your way in the right action, but you can act your way in the right thinking.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:48Speaker 00

  And it just makes me think of that.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:50Speaker 00

  Can I just take one more step in this direction? Huh? Yeah, I can.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:54Speaker 00

  And most of the time, that's the answer is, yeah, I can. Um, what are you not good at, Mark? Because if we keep sitting up here just massaging each other's egos, it's not gonna be cool. So what are you not good at?

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  I think that.

• 1:45:09Speaker 00

  Or where do you have, where do you struggle? Where are some spaces that you struggle?

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  I think I struggle with understanding that it's not all about me.

• 1:45:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:45:19Speaker 00

  The ego's so scary.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  It is very scary and.

• 1:45:22Speaker 00

  It's like a shadow that gets longer. You don't even notice it.

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:26Speaker 00

  It's like the more light that gets shined on you, this shadow kinda gets longer and you don't even really notice it. And you turn around and there's this, and people are like, you're an asshole. You're like, okay, well, let me figure it out. But no, but no, the ego is a scary thing, cause you don't really know how it grows or what causes it to grow sometimes. You know?

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  And the, I can try and convince myself that I'm

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  doing a good job of maintaining it, but that can also feed my ego.

• 1:45:55Speaker 00

  Right. Cause if, look, I'm doing a good job of maintaining it.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:57Speaker 00

  Who's doing that?

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:45:59Speaker 00

  Fuck. I think that's what's kinda happened to me over like, yeah, dude, it's like, I don't know. It's interesting. But that's all the journey too. It's like, yeah, I don't attach myself to a ton of experiences. I kinda feel like it's just, everything's just like an experiment sort of that I'm in.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:15Speaker 00

  But like, um, acclaim is an interesting thing, you know? Being acclaimed for something, having acclaim for something.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Like being applauded or?

• 1:46:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:46:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cause it's scary.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Speaker 00

  You know, because your ego will sit there and just listen to that all day.

• 1:46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's hard to, like, even if you try, like, I can tell myself the applause don't matter, but it's almost like my ego or the DNA still picks it up, picks up that frequency. It's like, I don't care what you say, we're gonna still try and build you up a little bit.

• 1:46:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Like a little gremlin in the dark.

• 1:46:51Speaker 00

  It is, dude. Yeah. Um, how much have, what's your relationship been like with your own, uh, ability to create discipline for yourself?

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  I find myself struggling with that. So

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  I, I struggle with, the word discipline is so weird because I just see it as, uh, discipline is doing the basic things consistently. And sometimes that's hard for me to do. So I try and implement strategies where I can outsource that discipline. So in order to be a good runner, I'm, I'm lifting weights. And I got my buddy, Austin Yocum, who is a guy I played football with, and he's got his own gym in Minneapolis. And he's one of my great buddies and he's the expert in the gym. If I tried to be the expert in the gym and go to like a Planet Fitness or someplace and try and do that on my own,

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  I wouldn't have the discipline to do it because motivation isn't there. And motivation is, is like a feeling where you, you can't rely on that.

• 1:48:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  So for me.

• 1:48:02Speaker 00

  So motivation is not something you can rely on, you don't think?

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  At all. I, I don't rely on motivation at all because it's, it's, how often are you motivated? Like?

• 1:48:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  You never, I don't know. Like, the more you do something, the less motivation plays a factor.

• 1:48:16Speaker 00

  And dude, sometimes I get motivated and I'll be like, oh dude, I'm motivated. I'm fine.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, you're like, I'm good today. I'm feeling it, dude.

• 1:48:26Speaker 00

  Bro, I'm motivated. I don't even need to go do anything. I'm already doing good. And then I don't do anything.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  I love that. I love that you said that.

• 1:48:35Speaker 00

  That's crazy. I never thought about that shit, bro.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  So I, I show up in the morning to Yocum's to lift and all I have to do is show up.

• 1:48:46Speaker 00

  And what's his gym called?

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  Yocum Strength.

• 1:48:48Speaker 00

  Yocum Strength. Yocum sounds like he's.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  That's his last name, too. He's this huge dude with long hair.

• 1:48:56Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Land of 10,000 nets. Land of 10,000 traps. Yeah, bro, dude. Bro, a mouse won't go near his back. Bro.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Yocum, that's him.

• 1:49:09Speaker 00

  Oh dang, bro. You could probably sell his semen on the market. And that's illegal too, people. But, um, anyway.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  So I go to him.

• 1:49:18Speaker 00

  So you outsource, so you trust him?

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  I trust him. I don't have to think about my weightlifting. All I have to do is show up. And then when I'm there, I know that I'm in a space where if I give my best effort, I'm gonna get the results because I trust him to do that.

• 1:49:34Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  For running, I don't have a coach and I am really bad at saying, all right, I'm gonna set this schedule for this week and I'm gonna do 70 miles and I'm gonna do 10 this day and 7 this day. Yeah, that's Austin right there.

• 1:49:49Speaker 00

  Oh, what's up, Austin?

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  And so what I do is I outsource that. There's this challenge called the Calendar Club Challenge. And it's where you run the number of miles equal to the day of the month. So on the first, you run one mile, then two miles, then three, all the way up to 30 or 31 miles at the end of the month.

• 1:50:04Speaker 00

  And you have to run every day?

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  You have to run every day. And for me, it's great because I know every mile I'm running for the entire month. I don't have to think about it. And it's a good challenge because toward the end of the month, you're starting to run a lot of miles that then help prepare me for hour 60 of a backyard ultra when my legs are tired, my brain's tired, I'm missing sleep a little bit more, I'm fatigued, I'm under fueled because I'm burning so many calories and trying to maintain all of that. And, um, so Calendar Club is like, now that's my discipline because I don't have to think about it. I've outsourced the thought process or, you know, if I don't feel like running today,

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  well, I got 20 miles to run today. I gotta go do that. I don't have a choice in this.

• 1:50:54Speaker 00

  Got it. So you just made the commitment and you're in and then you don't worry about all the extracurriculars of it?

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:51:01Speaker 00

  That's a lot. Yeah, cuz that's too much sometimes.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  I don't wanna think.

• 1:51:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  I do enough of that.

• 1:51:06Speaker 00

  Thinking does not help us.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't.

• 1:51:09Speaker 00

  I started to notice this a little bit. Sometimes I'm just like, my brain's running, but I'm not thinking. And when I start to notice that, I'm like, that's not, that's not the best thing because that's just my brain. It's like, it's just bullshit or whatever. It's just like smoking or whatever. I don't know what my brain is doing right now, but it's just like, it's like throwing old thoughts at me. Don't you feel bad about this? Remember this, dude? Or whatever. But it's not like usually fun stuff. So it's usually just kind of like try, it's like your junk folder of an email account.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  It's like the guy with the weener and he's got the controller in his hand, dude. It's like, dude, give me back that controller.

• 1:51:45Speaker 00

  Bro, this is all just park weener.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Get this guy out of here, dude. Get him out of my head. What was he doing?

• 1:51:52Speaker 00

  And he had a crazy, the weener seemed crazy. I only looked at it once, but it's.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  You didn't get a second look?

• 1:51:59Speaker 00

  I don't remember.

• 1:52:00Speaker 01

  I would have given it a second.

• 1:52:01Speaker 00

  I mean, I could draw it for you on a napkin if I had to. But what I'm saying is I only looked at it once, dude. And I was helping my girlfriend.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:08Speaker 00

  But anyway, uh, yeah, dude, it was just a, I mean, it was just like broad daylight in a park. But anyway, what I'm trying to say here is, but yeah, that's not thinking.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Speaker 00

  Right? That's my brain just spinning around. So then I start to like, if my brain starts to think a little bit, like I'm actually thinking, like, oh, what do I think about this? Or how can I solve this? Or what's going on? I'll start, I wanna try and like, I want to start like saying, oh, thank you, brain.

• 1:52:37Speaker 00

  Cuz then it's like, oh, good, I'm gonna start thinking more. Cuz I think this with like phone and just life, you get so caught up. Like a lot of times I'm not even thinking. I'm just like, I don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:49Speaker 00

  Like, I like what my brain thinks cuz it's doing something cool. It's like, how can we do this? Or what's going on? Or here's somebody's birthday today, or somebody just got, you know, three years of recovery, or somebody's heading off to like a, uh, psilocybin journey, just little things so I can call and congratulate, just little things so my brain just not filled with my bullshit, right?

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:07Speaker 00

  It's like, dude, if I get a thought in the morning of somebody else and it's not me, dude, it is like, oh dude, it's like my heart just got like a Christmas present. Like the other day I woke up and I was thinking of my sister and it was like, the best, and I don't mean that in a weird way, but it was like the best thing ever. I was like, oh, so nice to wake up thinking about somebody else.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  Have you found ways to cultivate that?

• 1:53:35Speaker 00

  Yes. For me recently, it's been having a gratitude list. And people say gratitude list all the time. But I don't think just writing things down, it doesn't help me. I have to write like, like I'll say, like yesterday I was writing, I'm thankful for my friend Curtis, right? So then I'll think, why am I thankful for my friend Curtis? Well, I'm thankful for when we go on walks together and we talk about stuff. We'll talk about faith. We'll talk about what's really going on in our lives. And so then I'll think about that. I'll think about, all right, that's me and Curtis, we're walking, we're talking about this, we'll joke around. You know, like we'll laugh a little bit, we'll get serious, we'll share about things that have meant something to us.

• 1:54:16Speaker 00

  We'll go see his son play football. I'll think about that. And I think, oh, I get to sit in the stands. He's down there on the field. He's coaching his son, like how much pride he feels. Um, his wife's in the stands. She's cheering. They got some ridiculous lady that keeps blowing one of those horns or whatever. But I'll attach like a lot of thoughts to it. And those thoughts make me feel something. So now, I'm have a gratitude list, but I'm feeling something about it. Like this morning I wrote also, oh, I'm thankful for the doors in my house. And so I thought about, well, how do I feel when I open certain doors? How do I feel when I walk through them? Right? So just trying to attach like actual moments to just the writing.

• 1:54:58Speaker 00

  And that's just been helping me somehow. I think it's just, I'm just cultivating a little bit more of that. I'm not saying I'm perfect or anything about it or, or anything. Shit, I'm barely, you know what I'm saying? We do, we, we out here. But, but that's a cool thing that I started to do. And then here's the crazy part, I start kinda liking it. Now I'm like, dude, I woke up and I was like, what is something I can be thankful for? And I didn't think that two months ago.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:26Speaker 00

  You know, I've always had a decent practice of it, but this is something else. Um, yeah, here's, he just has the, thanks for pulling this up, Trevin. Uh, ultimately gratitude is more complex than merely expressing courtesy or focusing on positive thinking. When you regularly focus or meditate on what you're thankful for, it causes effects that promote well-being, including psychology and physical health. Gratitude affects the amygdala, which regulates the SNS. Not sure what that means. And our anxiety responses regularly journeying about gratitude or discussing it as part of a group have long been parts of successful life coaching approaches. It reduces depression. That's something I do think maybe I'm getting. I hate talking about stuff, bruh, if I'm

• 1:56:11Speaker 00

  new to it because I'm afraid it's gonna go away.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  Well, okay, what I, I witnessed in you when you were talking about it's like, your eyes were closed and it was almost like you were back in that experience walking with your friend.

• 1:56:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  And you were back in that moment where you felt all that gratitude. So it was almost like, it was, it was crazy watching this cuz it was like you were pulling out that experience and you were feeling it right now.

• 1:56:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh, wait, the more we feel the things we're most grateful for, it's like, man, that's gonna carry with us.

• 1:56:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, that's the thing. Like, I don't know. I'm just started the practice of it. I've probably been doing it about two months now, maybe, six weeks, but it's just feeling good. And I have started to like it a little bit more. And the craziest thing is, I used to be able to only think of a few things I'm grateful for. And now it's like I'm be able to think of more. So, I don't know, it's been interesting. I'm sure in two days I'll just be vaping and laying there, touching myself for no reason. But for now, I feel like maybe something new could be going on. I, I heard you, you had a post this the other day that I thought was really cool and you were, you were talking, this is on, uh, on Instagram, I think.

• 1:57:21Speaker 00

  And you were just talking about how things in your life wouldn't be possible without Jesus Christ, without your faith.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:28Speaker 00

  How is faith like played a role and how did faith like start in your life?

• 1:57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I mean, I grew up going to Catholic, you know, it was Catholic grade school.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Alter boy, all that stuff, stoked about funerals.

• 1:57:42Speaker 00

  That's why you're fast if you're an altar boy.

• 1:57:45Speaker 00

  All right. That might be a little, sorry, Pat.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  Hey, hey, it's okay.

• 1:57:49Speaker 00

  Sorry Bishop.

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got a Bishop coming on next week. You're gonna have to explain yourself.

• 1:57:53Speaker 00

  And he's from Minnesota.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:57:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:57:56Speaker 00

  He's from Minnesota, so I'm excited about it.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  You're gonna have to explain yourself to him.

• 1:58:00Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  So, went through that, went through Jesuit high school, went through, you know, it was a Catholic university, but never felt like it was a choice that I was making. And in high school, I struggled for a number of different reasons, but I struggled making strong, deep rooted connections with people. So I always felt like an outsider. And so I always felt like

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  in order for me to be a part of this group, I have to predict how I think they want me to live and be like. And the amount of, I don't know if I'd call it anxiety, but like, I, it was this scared mindset of like, trying to predict how they wanted me to act and always getting it wrong. And then trying to figure, like, I was always living up in my head, thinking I knew what was going up on you, in your mind, and trying to live that way.

• 1:58:55Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  Bro, it sucked.

• 1:58:57Speaker 00

  You're like an EMT dude. Yeah, when you're living like that, you were literally like an EMT. You're just like sitting there, like you're like a response team.

• 1:59:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:04Speaker 00

  It's like, how do I respond, right? Yeah. That shit's hectic. Some of that could be being young, but I think also that it's, uh, that it's interesting that you were noticing that. Okay, go on.

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  And so, leaving high school, I had sort of made this quiet promise with myself that I didn't want to feel that way again. And so I chased acceptance. I was like, I'm gonna do whatever it, I can to get people to like me and not live this way anymore. And a lot of the things were like, be successful in sports, drink and have a good time. And, you know, I would let my friends shoot me with a blow dart, being drunk, or shoot me with a BB gun, because that was fun. I was, I was, I was the center of attention.

• 1:59:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, shoot me.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  You know, shoot me.

• 1:59:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, hatchet me.

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. Cut off my leg.

• 1:59:51Speaker 00

  Who cares, bro?

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Let's go. And, uh, and that worked for a while, you know, that, that works. And eventually that led me into a place where I was like, you know, getting in trouble with alcohol, having regrets, having shame, um, talking about, you know, the things that I talked about earlier of just like bottling up emotions and having that come out in negative ways.

• 2:00:15Speaker 00

  That shame's crazy, bro.

• 2:00:16Speaker 01

  It's wild. It'll do some dark things to you.

• 2:00:19Speaker 00

  It's crazy. I think most of our country, I don't know, I think a lot of us are living in shame, especially, uh, men, because of probably pornography and stuff like that. And how it's just been able to be so accessible, you know, like how it was just like, I don't know. Imagine how much shame is rocking around out there.

• 2:00:37Speaker 01

  And how shame can be used to control you.

• 2:00:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  This is wild. Uh, in my spam, in my email, this is like a couple of months ago. Someone was trying to, uh, what do you call it? Like, hold me hostage for like Bitcoin. They're like, you gotta pay us this amount because we saw you through your camera watching porn.

• 2:01:04Speaker 00

  No way.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  And I gave up watching porn when I started following Christ, a little over two and a half years ago. And I'm grateful for that and I thank God for that because maybe in the darkness of me doing that consistently and feeling that shame, I would have allowed that shame to control me. And, but I'm set free from that now. And I know that's a lie because that's not something that I do anymore. And it's just like.

• 2:01:33Speaker 00

  Imagine how many people are falling to that.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  And how you wouldn't. I hope I don't get it. But bring that up if that's a scam right now. Let's take a peek at it. I'm 29 days off of pornography right now.

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  Good. Good.

• 2:01:45Speaker 00

  So, I'm feeling, it's the most I've done in a long time. I can't even believe it.

• 2:01:50Speaker 01

  It's freeing.

• 2:01:51Speaker 00

  But I'm gonna keep believing it.

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:53Speaker 00

  You know?

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:55Speaker 00

  Instead of just being like, I can't even, I'm just gonna keep believing it.

• 2:02:00Speaker 00

  Reports of scammers claiming they recorded people watching pornography via their webcam are widespread form of extortion known as sex extortion.

• 2:02:11Speaker 00

  The threat: Victims receive an email or letter claiming a hacker took over their computer, activated their webcam, and recorded a split screen video of them viewing explicit websites.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:02:22Speaker 00

  The scare tactics: Scammers often include an old password stolen from a past corporate or website data breach. Wow. In the email's subject line or body to trick the recipient into believing their device is fully compromised. Some advanced variants even include a Google Street View image of the victim's house to induce panic.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 2:02:42Speaker 00

  The demand: The sender threatens to send the fabricated video to the victim's family, friends, or coworkers unless a ransom, usually paid in Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency, is sent with a strict deadline. Oh my God.

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:02:58Speaker 00

  I didn't know this was happening, dude.

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:00Speaker 00

  It is a bluff. Cybersecurity experts, cybersecurity experts and law enforcement agencies note that their claims are almost always entirely false. The scammers do not have a video of you, do not have access to your webcam, and generally do not possess your content list. Data is bought and spoofed. The password used as proof was bought cheaply off the dark web from old unrelated leaks, and the email address is often spoofed to look like it came from your own account. That's crazy. I didn't know all that was going on, did you?

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  I, I did, just from my experience.

• 2:03:34Speaker 00

  Right. Wow. Dude, I'm glad we talked about that, cuz I can't even ima, I mean, every dude I know would send at least $30.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:45Speaker 00

  Or $60, $80, or something like that, or, yeah, at least $140 probably. I mean, every dude I know would continually, or not every, but a lot of dudes have fallen, have fallen prey to it. And to think of your webcam, oh, man.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  Well, it's, uh, dang, at least for me at that time, it was, it was aimed at fulfilling a need that I thought that I could fulfill with something worldly. And, and yes, pleasure in that regard. Yes, acceptance from people in high school and, and trying to change that in college, and chasing achievement, and getting to a point where none of these things fulfilled me. And I think, I, I feel really

• 2:04:31Speaker 01

  encouraged and compelled to like, man, there's a lot of things that we think that are going to give us what only God can give us.

• 2:04:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:43Speaker 01

  And, uh, and I think it's interesting that, you know, porn is something that is

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  kind of commonplace, and yet it is being used against us. And I think that is something that is important because there, I did feel shame around it. And I think the answer wasn't to pretend to not feel shame around it. It was to reconcile why I feel shame around it and understand that there's a better way to honor life and honor my thoughts and bring them closer to what God would want them to be.

• 2:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you just have, we had my friend on here who's a porn, uh, he's a pornography recovery coach, right? And, um, he's amazing dude. He's the greatest dude. He's been through so much. But just all the things it hijacks that we don't even realize. It's like, the way then that you look at your spouse, the way that you communicate with women in general.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:05:46Speaker 00

  Just the energy you bring into the world even, you know, like even if I've been yurking off or whatever, if I'm going out in the world, my energy's just different. So it's like, I don't know, it's not oppression to make anybody feel bad, but just like, yeah, it's, it is, it is like a, it is like, it's your own spirit and this like, and this greater energy

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:09Speaker 00

  of like, of a connection with God that you could just, that I believe you get disconnected from.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  I, I felt like I was a slave to it, like, in the, in the.

• 2:06:17Speaker 00

  It was habit forming.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, you close the door, you close the shades. It's like, everything about it made me feel like I needed to hide myself from the world.

• 2:06:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  And then you, I, I would take that with me. And like you said, like, people that you would see, women that you would see, it would change how I viewed them. And it would change how I viewed my spouse. And it's, that.

• 2:06:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's all damaging. And I think the way we interact with, all that stuff just has an effect. That's what I'm saying. That's what I mean. I just mean like, if somebody's like realizing like, man, I'm having trouble in my, I'm having trouble, even just like being around my kids or going to do something fun or having more time for, all of that gets affected, I think. Or the little side effects we don't notice. What about like sexual, like, activity before a race? Will you not engage? Like, what is that like? Cuz for boxers, they say that that's a thing, you know? What's it like for marathon runners? Cuz if I'm gonna run 95 miles, maybe it's better if my wife's waiting for me there at the end than if I just left out of her room, you know?

• 2:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I actually haven't thought about that too much.

• 2:07:17Speaker 00

  Really? So it's not, it's not on your, it's not on your radar?

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  No. Yeah.

• 2:07:23Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. And I interrupted you about when you were talking about your, your, uh, relationship with God.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I wouldn't say interrupt, but we, yeah, I would say.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  Through chasing all of these different things that I thought would fulfill me, I would come up empty. And for me, it was, you know, I was running around thinking that running was going to be the thing that would give me fame and sponsorships and financial freedom and all of these things that I thought I wanted. And none of it was happening for me. And I felt empty. And

• 2:07:58Speaker 00

  You just weren't achieving those things?

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it wasn't, they weren't coming in the way that I wanted them to. And even in the ways that they were, it wasn't enough to keep me happy and joyful. It was almost like it was doing the opposite. And

• 2:08:14Speaker 00

  Wow. So did you almost like, did it get to a point where you're almost going to quit running at one point?

• 2:08:18Speaker 01

  Not necessarily quit, but have a, uh, try and figure out what the point of me running was.

• 2:08:25Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  You know, I had started doing the charity runs with my friend and have this beautiful relationship. And then somewhere along the way, it became this avenue of like, well, I want to be a professional at this. And in order to be a professional, I need followers, money and sponsors.

• 2:08:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  And those, yes, are like tangible things that help you become a professional, but I was chasing them for their end, like for what they could do for me. And yeah, I was, I was on a run and I was listening to a podcast with Cameron Haynes and Sally McCray. And they were talking about how in the deepest, darkest moments during the races, that they are reminded that they are made by a strong creator and that they are, that creator, that strength is in them because they're made in his image and his likeness.

• 2:09:16Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  And that thought, I was like, maybe this is, this is something that I need to think about. I didn't know how to do that, but it was a thought that was put on my heart. And not even five miles later, I come across a friend. His name's Vince. I hadn't seen him in a year. And he's sitting by the lake, reading a Bible. I'm like, what's up Vince? Like, how you doing? Uh, what are you doing out here? What brings you out here? He's like, I have fallen from my faith. And something about today, the Holy Spirit put on my heart that I need to come here and I need to read scripture. And the verse he was reading when

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  I interrupted him was in the book of John. And it's, it's, I'm paraphrasing, but it said, the reason you do not know God is because you are not of God. And to me, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, I didn't know what was going to fulfill me. I was chasing all of these things and they weren't, they weren't doing it. And now I have this thought of like, well, what is, what is a relationship with God look like? And that scripture was like, well, if you want to find out, go find out. Go do something about it. Go take action. Join a men's group. Go, go to church. Go to some place that you can learn more about understanding what the kingdom of God is all about. And from that point, I started actually

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  taking steps forward. It's like, if you want to build a relationship with a person or a spouse, you don't do so by staying distant from them. You get to know them, you talk to them, you learn about how they love and how they are calling you to live and how they're calling themselves to live. And, and that's what I started with was just like, hey, okay, let me open the Bible. I've never done that before.

• 2:11:08Speaker 00

  Let me crack it open.

• 2:11:10Speaker 01

  What does that even mean?

• 2:11:13Speaker 00

  And those bibles up in Minnesota, they sound like a, like a can of beer when you open them, some of them, you know, there's a lot of beer up there. Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you did not belong to God.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I wanted to hear God, man. I, because I had tried everything.

• 2:11:31Speaker 00

  Oh, there you go. Dude, that's it. I tried everything.

• 2:11:36Speaker 01

  What else is there, you know?

• 2:11:37Speaker 00

  Like, yeah, like, when do I admit that to myself? You know, like, I'd tried everything. I tried everything.

• 2:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:43Speaker 00

  I tried to do it my way.

• 2:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:45Speaker 00

  I just tried everything, you know? It's crazy to think that God made us because he loved us, you know? That's one of the wildest things. There's, it's not wild, but it's like,

• 2:11:56Speaker 00

  yeah, the other day we're at this, I go to a Bible study and they have, uh, they were just talking about asking God, what you could do for his kingdom, you know? And like, sometimes if you can really get in a good space and really ask that, I just, I'd never thought about it before, you know? Just like really asking God, what can I do for you?

• 2:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:17Speaker 00

  You know? Like, sometimes you can really get in a space where you really feel like a connection, you know? Sometimes you're just, you know what I'm saying? You gotta be, you know, there's 30 miles on the counter. It's the 30th of the month. You gotta hit the road, you know? And you're drive through praying. You were like in the, you know?

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:12:34Speaker 00

  You're just getting coffee at the window, but sometimes you go inside

• 2:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:38Speaker 00

  the McDonald's of the Lord. And you really get in there on your knees and you, yeah, I don't know. But yeah, it's like, man, God, what can I do for you? You know? Yeah, it's kind of cool. Because then he, you could, you could get to do something. And it's not for yourself.

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sometimes it's flipping burgers in the back.

• 2:13:00Speaker 00

  That is fine, dude.

• 2:13:02Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's in the, the place, the play center.

• 2:13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude. Sometimes it's just being an adult that's sitting in the ball pit vaping, dude. That's, if that's where God asks you. But no, I don't know. I think there is like, I don't know, there can be like some excitement and like, yeah, there's excitement in that space. If you're, if you can, if you can get there with it. I think there's excitement in that space of like, yeah, what could God want me to do? You know, who could he put in my life that there could be some new way to learn? Or, I don't know, it's just easier when it's like, like, maybe if something good happens, it's not just with, I'm just, I'm not the only one to sit there and you can be like, oh, thanks God. You know, it's

• 2:13:48Speaker 00

  like, God, that's cool. It's like, I'm not the only one. It's not just, oh, yeah. Otherwise, I'm just sitting there by myself. Oh, that was cool. That was neat.

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:55Speaker 00

  You know, but it's like to have somebody to share something with.

• 2:13:57Speaker 01

  Dude, when, when you were thinking about that in that space, were there clear answers that came up for you?

• 2:14:05Speaker 00

  Um, no, not really. I think it was just like, I felt just grateful that I was thinking about it.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:14:13Speaker 00

  You know?

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:14Speaker 00

  I think it's just better than sitting there with my thoughts and my thoughts are just my own.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:20Speaker 00

  You know, I think it just feels like some reprieve. Uh, yeah. So I think that's kind of where I'm at with like, some of the relationship with God or like, kind of like, what's going on with me with it, I guess. I don't know. It's always a little bit different.

• 2:14:39Speaker 00

  But yeah, I don't know if I'd ever even thought I'd exactly have this conversation.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:43Speaker 00

  You know? So I think it's just like thinking, little things you start to notice, you know? And I'm in a Bible study, man. Uh, you know, this, this thing that was like, kind of nice that happened, there's this musician, his name is Zach John King. And I think he just had a new album that came out actually, but he had, uh, there's this new book, it's called Theo on Golden.

• 2:15:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:15:05Speaker 00

  It's by Alan Levy or Alan Levi. Um, and it's about an old man who goes into this, uh, sort of who goes into this coffee shop in this town called Golden. But anyway, my buddy Zach John, my, my buddy Zach had given me this book and he'd, uh, and it was wrapped up in paper. And he said, oh, my dad really loved this book and he thought that you would like it. So he gave it to me as a gift. And I just put it in my truck and like, two weeks later, his father passed away. It was like a sudden heart attack. Um, and then two weeks after that, I realized I still had this book in my truck. I'd never opened it up. And I opened it up and his dad had

• 2:15:47Speaker 00

  written in it. He was just like, uh, I'm so grateful you and my son are friends and I'm so grateful that you guys are, uh, learning about God together.

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:15:56Speaker 00

  And it was just like this, like, uh, I don't know. It was just like, it's just like little things, you know?

• 2:16:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:03Speaker 00

  Um, but it was like a nice moment that he and I got to have, that his father was like, you know, his father's still alive here through these words. And, um, I don't know, I'm kind of not doing the story justice, but

• 2:16:16Speaker 01

  No, you are.

• 2:16:17Speaker 00

  It was pretty special. And he's a special guy. And it kind of just gave us a, like this little connection, you know? So it's just interesting. Um, I don't know. It's all kind of interesting. I get scared to talk about some of that kind of stuff because sometimes Christian people can be like, you know, they can nail you to the cross.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:36Speaker 00

  It's like, bro, he already did that for us. You know what I'm saying, bro? Put your toolbox down, Karen. So that's on, sometimes it's like, uh, I don't know, some of that stuff I, I get nervous talking about in some ways. I know I shouldn't. I don't get nervous talking. I think maybe like in a public way.

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:56Speaker 00

  Does it make sense to you?

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  It does make sense to me. And it brings up what you said earlier is like, I have a fear of, I don't know enough. So I feel like the knowledge of it, like, almost like I have to have a certain knowledge of it to be able to talk about it. And like, if that's what you said, like you get nailed to the cross, like, this is where I'm at in the, in my faith journey.

• 2:17:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:21Speaker 01

  And this is what I know, which is not very much.

• 2:17:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:25Speaker 01

  But I'm still curious about it.

• 2:17:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. And some of the stories, dude, are not even that good. I'm going to go ahead and say that straight up, bro. I'm no Dr. Seuss or whatever, or like fricking Oprah or whatever. But some of the stories in there, it's like, bro, this is a B-side track, dude. Let's be realistic. So I think I'm focusing on like the hits right now.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:17:51Speaker 00

  You know?

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:52Speaker 00

  But, um,

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  The hits are good, dude.

• 2:17:54Speaker 00

  But that's what I'm saying. The hits are good, dude. Yeah, they hit, the hits hit, bro. Uh, but yeah, not to be ashamed and also to be transparent. I don't, you know, like, there's been times where like, like faith is kind of coming to my life in some ways and then it's gone away.

• 2:18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:08Speaker 00

  You know, and I don't know what that's like. I don't know. But, uh,

• 2:18:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I had this like, I don't know.

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  I had some, uh, found some other numbers on sextortion. If you wanted to read these off, we can plug it in.

• 2:18:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, dude, I didn't even know. Let's get, okay, great. Thank you so much. Uh, oh, these are key. Sextortion is one of the fastest growing online crimes in the world with law enforcement and safety organizations reporting an unprecedented surge in cases over recent years. While it's difficult to map the exact global numbers, estimated 98% of cases go unreported due to their fear and shame. I could totally see that. The explosion of reports, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the United States received 26,718 sextortion reports via its cyber tip line in 2023, a massive jump from 10,700 reports in 2022 and just 139 in 2021. So it's growing.

• 2:19:05Speaker 00

  NCMEC now averages roughly 812 reports of sextortion per week.

• 2:19:12Speaker 00

  Teenage impact research from youth advocacy organization Thorn indicates that one in five teenagers report experiencing some form of extortion online. Other youth studies place the rate at around 1 in 20. Dude, that's gotta be horrible for kids.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:28Speaker 00

  Teenage boys and young men are most at risk. Young men aged 14 to 24 have become the primary targets of financial sextortion. For example, reports from cyberclip.ca indicate that 83% of victims are male when the gender is known. Dang.

• 2:19:43Speaker 01

  Bummer.

• 2:19:45Speaker 00

  And LGBTQ youth studies show that LGBTQ plus individuals plus Inez Kanter experience disproportionately higher rates of both victimization and subsequent mental health distress compared to their peers, probably because they're saying, not only were you looking at pornography, but you were looking at gay pornography.

• 2:20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:09Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  Dark.

• 2:20:12Speaker 00

  Dark. That's why we gotta keep going.

• 2:20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:15Speaker 00

  One step.

• 2:20:16Speaker 01

  Forward.

• 2:20:16Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  Forward.

• 2:20:18Speaker 00

  One step at a time. Let's look at some of this Mark, uh, Dowdle porn, uh, sorry. Let's, sorry, I did not mean that. We'll take that out. Let's look at some of this Mark Dowdle core. That's what I meant, dude. Some of the Mark Dowdle core that's out there. Let's just add to the lore. From what a menace this dude must be when you're out there running. It's the middle of the night. A lot of these men have not even seen their wives or children for three days. And this total menace comes up the course. Let me see some of it, bro. And this was at the most recent race.

• 2:20:53Speaker 01

  This was.

• 2:20:53Speaker 00

  This was at the ultra, yeah?

• 2:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:59Speaker 02

  This message is for Sam Harvey back at base camp. I didn't come for 158 souls. I came for all 159 and you can count on that.

• 2:21:15Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 2:21:17Speaker 03

  I, I heard it. I heard it.

• 2:21:18Speaker 00

  I heard it. I heard it.

• 2:21:20Speaker 01

  My favorite part is listening to the commentators on that.

• 2:21:23Speaker 00

  Oh, bro, that's crazy, dude.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:26Speaker 00

  Do you have to keep your mentality that high out there? Like, is it an active thing? Like, are there, are there active moments where you're like, okay, what do I think of now to get me to that finish line? Like, okay, I'm gonna think of, um, this loops for my family, this loops for, uh, my mom, this loops for my, you know, do you think like that? Are there little things you think of that get you to that next moment?

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  Yes and no. I mean, uh, there's one thing that kept me going out there, at least deeper into the race is like, part of what I get to do in running is that's how I provide for my family and through the different avenues of what that represents, um, the, some of the best things that I get to do is I get to come home the week after or the weeks after, and it'll be a Wednesday and my wife and I will get to hang out and not worry about where we need to be. And if I can step further into that darkness, if I can take steps towards the discomfort

• 2:22:27Speaker 01

  and over the, overcome the pain of that situation, the reward for that is a movie on a Wednesday with my wife. Brother, I will go through more pain to experience that type of freedom and peace.

• 2:22:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:22:44Speaker 01

  And so like, that is a big thing that keeps me going out there is this, this pain is nothing compared to the light that is waiting for me.

• 2:22:55Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  And I know that's coming for me.

• 2:22:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  If I can stay here and sit in it.

• 2:22:59Speaker 00

  Let me pay the tab right now.

• 2:23:00Speaker 01

  Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Like make it harder, actually. Like bring it on because light and love will always overcome the darkness. That's in running and that's in life and that's in our faith. That's in our family and our friends, our relationship, everything. Light and love will overcome the darkness. And these races provide me evidence for that and I get to keep stepping into that. And, uh, yeah, my wife is a big, big light in my life.

• 2:23:28Speaker 00

  Lucy's her name.

• 2:23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, which means light.

• 2:23:30Speaker 00

  Does it really?

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 2:23:32Speaker 00

  Nice Lucy. And you guys have a baby on the way.

• 2:23:36Speaker 01

  We do have a baby.

• 2:23:37Speaker 00

  Is that true?

• 2:23:37Speaker 01

  That is true. Yeah.

• 2:23:39Speaker 00

  Let's go.

• 2:23:40Speaker 01

  So that was another, you know.

• 2:23:42Speaker 00

  And do you know if it's gonna be a boy or a girl yet?

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  We, we don't know that yet. Brother, we, uh,

• 2:23:48Speaker 01

  I don't know why I keep saying brother like that.

• 2:23:50Speaker 00

  It's okay, dude.

• 2:23:51Speaker 01

  But, uh.

• 2:23:52Speaker 00

  I'll put on a Hulk Hogan shirt if you want. Whatever you gotta do to get through this.

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  Uh, we had the first 10 week ultrasound, um, and we met with the midwife two days ago and I heard the heartbeat for the first time.

• 2:24:05Speaker 00

  Wow. And you've never done a 10 week ultra?

• 2:24:08Speaker 01

  Uh-uh. Never, never, never done a 10 week ultra.

• 2:24:12Speaker 00

  But the baby has already.

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  Baby has.

• 2:24:14Speaker 00

  Wow. So we know where this kid's headed. To the loop.

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

  It's another loop.

• 2:24:21Speaker 00

  Oh, congratulations, man. Was that pretty amazing?

• 2:24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. Um.

• 2:24:26Speaker 00

  Wow, dude, that's.

• 2:24:27Speaker 01

  It's hard to put into words, cause I, like, I heard the heartbeat and it was like, this is life and I'm listening to it, but I can't see it.

• 2:24:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:24:37Speaker 01

  But it's there. It's, it was just a weird, I don't even know what the, yeah, it's just, it was beautiful.

• 2:24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. And you know what's so interesting about the heartbeat that I think about sometimes, Mark? It's like, my heartbeat, it's my father and my mother's heartbeat. It's together, right? So it's like this, like this beat has been going. Like the radio has been left on, bro. Like it, this is like, this is like the timbre of like, I mean, I don't even know how long my family's even been alive.

• 2:25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:09Speaker 00

  But it's like, it's the same, like this beat is just, I'm just a remix.

• 2:25:12Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:25:13Speaker 00

  Of all the people that have been here and that created me, dude. And that's it. Like, that's what you make. Like you make the beat. It's pretty crazy really when you think about it.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:22Speaker 00

  So sometimes like if you miss your mother or you miss your father, if there's somebody like, you can like, like that's why like that beat is just right there. It's kinda wild sometimes. Sometimes I'll do that and just like, kinda like think about a family member that's gone, you know? It's kinda cool.

• 2:25:37Speaker 01

  That is really cool. I never thought about that. Yeah.

• 2:25:41Speaker 00

  That's the thing, bro. That's the remix, bro. That's the Mark Dowdle Lucy remix, bro. That's the new track.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  Another loop, man. This is another loop.

• 2:25:51Speaker 00

  That's perfect. Um, you do public speaking now? You do, um, you go out and talk to people and share, uh, what's your journey and your faith? Is it basically most or what, what is it, some of that out when you go to these, when you go to, um, different schools and events?

• 2:26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the way I think about running is in these three buckets, under this same mission of, I'm trying to figure out what I'm truly capable of and I want to help other people discover that too. The first bucket is I demonstrate that. I do the Arrowhead 135s. I do the backyard ultras and I put the words into action. The next step is share that. Share the tools and the lessons that I use in the toughest moments out on the race, on the course to help me overcome those. And then whether that's through YouTube or Instagram or going out and publicly speaking that to young men and women who, you know, man, I would have loved to hear these lessons as a high school and college kid where I was struggling to find my purpose and my identity

• 2:26:47Speaker 01

  and what was really important. And to corporations who are looking to, for ways to kinda rejuvenate their, their culture. Um, so then there's that aspect. And the third is to create opportunities for that to happen. So like one thing we do in Minnesota, uh, with my buddy Kellen and his business, it's a sauna cold tub business and we'll run three miles in the middle of the winter when it's minus 10 degrees out and we'll run to a cold spot in the Mississippi River. We'll crack open the ice with sledgehammers. We'll take a two minute cold plunge and then we'll run two miles back to the saunas and embrace north. And what I get to experience in that moment

• 2:27:28Speaker 01

  is somebody who is afraid of what this experience could be and watch that fear build over three miles. And then they get to a hole and they, they jump in and it's like all that fear that they'd built up in their mind. They realized the experience was not as scary as the reality of the situation. And that's what being in a backyard is for me. That's what being in a, you know, the Arrowhead is for me. It is experience that and how can I bring that to people? And so the public speaking is a way for me to like, share this lesson and then show people like,

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  you can do this too. You don't have to do, you know, 94 hours in a backyard to experience that.

• 2:28:15Speaker 00

  Ooh, that guy got in the one with the two ladies in it, bro. That's what I'm talking about, dude. That guy picked, dude, I've never seen two ladies in the Mississippi River either, dude. But this dude knows.

• 2:28:28Speaker 01

  Hey, that's what happens upstream.

• 2:28:30Speaker 00

  Hell, yeah.

• 2:28:30Speaker 01

  Come upstream more often.

• 2:28:32Speaker 00

  I'm upstream. Dude, what happens upstream stays upstream, bro. Um, Mark Dowdle, thanks so much, man. Is there anything else that you want to discuss before you go?

• 2:28:42Speaker 01

  No, I, I just wanna thank you. Thank you for your time. And, uh, like I said earlier, thank you for the way that you think about things because I, it's truly encouraging to hear you think and talk out loud and it encourages me to be able to do that more and more without fear of needing to be perfect.

• 2:29:01Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks, dude. Yeah, I'm just trying my best, you know? I think most people are. And I sometimes, yeah, and even then I wish I did better at it. You know what? That's a crazy statement. I'm trying my best. And then the next statement out of my mouth is, man, I wish I did better at it.

• 2:29:14Speaker 01

  That's.

• 2:29:15Speaker 00

  That's just proof right there what I'm talking about. Like, gotta monitor these voices, man.

• 2:29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:20Speaker 00

  Um, but so grateful I got to hear yours today, dude. And that's one that's gonna keep ringing in my ears. And, uh, yeah, just thanks so much for your journey. Um, tell Lucy thank you for letting her husband leave while she's pregnant and letting you escape. And, uh, and yeah, dude, um, we'll be keeping tabs and, uh, we wanna donate to your friend's charity.

• 2:29:41Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 2:29:42Speaker 00

  For his mother. What's, it's called Lori?

• 2:29:44Speaker 01

  Love Like Lori Legacy.

• 2:29:46Speaker 00

  Love Like Lori Legacy.

• 2:29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, cool.

• 2:29:48Speaker 00

  Thank you. Yeah, you bet. We'll keep in touch about it and, um, and we'll donate to it right here. That's what it is. LovelikeLori.com, uh, living the legacy run. And when is the run?

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  So this run, the website's a little bit outdated, but you can still donate to it. But this was a, the third charity one we did, which was a 500 mile run from Springfield, Illinois to St. Paul.

• 2:30:10Speaker 00

  Okay. I'll be in the van, but.

• 2:30:15Speaker 01

  This happened in 2022.

• 2:30:17Speaker 00

  Oh, it did? Okay.

• 2:30:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:30:19Speaker 00

  Excellent. Got it, got it, got it. Um, well Lori, we miss you and, uh, grateful to think about you today and say your name out loud. And, um, yep, Mark Dowdle, thanks so much, brother.

• 2:30:29Speaker 01

  Thank you for you.

• 2:30:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, man.

• 2:30:58Speaker 02

  Welcome back, frickin' Frack. Welcome to the jungle. ABC tonight. Abbott is back. It's gonna be the best year yet. Thank you. Now we can finally turn this up.

• 2:31:12Speaker 02

  And everyone's going wild. Y'all think you run this school, but you don't. It's going great. Abbott Elementary.

• 2:31:18Speaker 04

  Anything can happen in the jungle, right guys?

• 2:31:22Speaker 02

  Season premiere tonight on ABC and stream next day on Hulu.