282. The Language of Luck: Why Fortune Favors Those Who Pay Attention

If you can make conversation, you can make your own luck. Good communication isn’t passive. And good luck, says Tina Seelig https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/tina-seelig/, is the same. There’s “what the world gives us,” and then there’s “how we respond to it.” Seelig is executive director of the Knight-Hennessy Scholars Program at Stanford University and author of What I Wish I Knew About Luck https://www.fastersmarter.io/what-i-wish-i-knew-about-luck. For her, good fortune doesn’t find us, we find it. “Opportunities for lucky things to happen are ubiquitous. But they're invisible and most people don't see them,” she says. In the same way that communication requires active listening, making our own luck requires presence to the people and possibilities that come our way. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Seelig and host Matt Abrahams explore how communication creates luck. From curious listening to resolving the conflicts that block opportunity, Seelig offers practical ways to respond to what life offers — and turn everyday interactions into the foundation for good fortune. To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/. Episode Reference Links: Tina Seelig https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/tina-seelig/Tina’s Book: What I Wish I Knew About Luck https://www.fastersmarter.io/what-i-wish-i-knew-about-luckEp.111 Rethinks: How to Spark Creativity in Your Communication https://www.fastersmarter.io/111-best-of-how-to-spark-creativity-in-your-communication/Ep.159 Earn Your Audience: You Can’t Lead If No One’s Listening https://www.fastersmarter.io/159-earn-your-audience-you-cant-lead-if-no-ones-listening/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/language-of-luck/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (01:00) - Luck vs. Fortune (02:09) - The Idea of Making Luck (02:54) - Building Your Luck Framework (04:03) - Listening Creates Opportunity (05:10) - Focus on Others (08:11) - Staying Connected to Others (09:23) - Appreciation as a Habit (10:18) - How Conflict Blocks Luck (11:49) - Apologies Create Opportunity (12:47) - Ask, Don’t Assume (14:40) - Communicating for Your Audience (16:27) - Prepare Your Stories (18:10) - The Final Three Questions (22:40) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources.

• 0:25Matt Abrahams?

  Have you ever felt that fortune has benefited you? Well, today you're in luck because we're going to spend some time discussing luck. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I am super excited to be joined by my friend and now three-time guest, Tina Selig. Tina is the Executive Director of the Knight Hennessy Scholars Program at Stanford and Director Emeritus of the Stanford Technology Ventures Program. Tina also teaches courses on creativity, innovation, and entrepreneurship. She's the author of many books, including Creativity Rules, Get Ideas Out of Your Head, and Into the World. Her latest book is What I Wish I Knew About Luck: A Crash Course on Turning Aspirations

• 1:10Matt Abrahams?

  Into Achievements. Tina, welcome back. It's great to be back in studio with you to continue the conversations you and I have in lots of different areas in lots of different ways. Thanks for being here.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  It is my pleasure.

• 1:20Matt Abrahams?

  Excellent. Shall we get started?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  You bet.

• 1:22Matt Abrahams?

  I don't know if you remembered or not, but when we first met, it was after I gave you a cold call because I had seen your TED Talk called "The Little Risks You Can Take to Increase Your Luck." Well, lucky me, that email initiated a friendship and collaborations that have gone on for a number of years. But before I ask you why luck is an important topic and one we should look into, I'd like to know, was I lucky that you answered my email, or was it just good fortune?

• 1:47Speaker 01

  I think you were lucky. Millions of people have watched that TED Talk, but you took the time to actually reach out and you sent me a nice note, and it certainly was interesting enough that I responded, and the rest is history. So you were definitely lucky because there's a very big difference between fortune and luck. So fortune is the things that happen. Happened to you, so you happened upon that video. Maybe it ended up in your feed, but then you were lucky because you reached out. So there's a difference between the things that happened to you and how you respond. We are in a constant dance between what the world gives us and how we respond to it. And that's where luck comes in.

• 2:31Matt Abrahams?

  I want to hear all about luck. Tell me what got you interested in luck in the first place.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Great. So when I was growing up, my father, who just recently passed away, he and I have debated about luck for decades. He always said, the harder I work, the luckier I get. And I really internalized that. And I would say it too, like, yeah, the harder I work, the luckier I get, until I realized that was a shortcut. You know, what is that hard work? And what can you unpack to actually make yourself luckier? And he and I continued to debate because he still felt that good things just happened to him. And I would say, no, no, no, look at all the things you did to make those good things happen.

• 3:16Matt Abrahams?

  I see. So there's a big sense of agency in all of this. You use the term making luck. Can you unpack that for us? Because I don't think of luck that way. Help me more understand that.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  So I deeply believe that opportunities for lucky things to happen are ubiquitous, but they're invisible and most people don't see them. And therefore you need to figure out how to catch them. And so what you do is if luck is like the wind, invisible but powerful, you need to build a sail to catch it. And so there are three ways that you build a sail to catch it. First, you have to start with your ship and you start with the internal work. You need to know your values. You need to know your risk profile. You need to know the story you tell about yourself. You need to know where you're going. You also then need to recruit your crew. That is, get other people engaged to want to help you because most luck comes through other people. Right? There are other people who are going to help you reach your goals.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  And there are lots of ways to do that. And then finally, you need to hoist the sail. And those are the things you do every single day to put energy into catching the wind that is ubiquitous around you.

• 4:26Matt Abrahams?

  I really like the analogy of the wind because it helps us understand that there's something very powerful that we can't see, yet there are things we can do. I want to dive deep into each of those three areas. But before we do that, I really enjoyed your new book. You argue something that I found really interesting that I never thought of. You argue that deep, authentic listening is one of the most underrepresented or underused ways to get luck or find luck. What is curious listening and how does it help us with luck?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  People know if you're paying attention, if you're present, if you're there. I mean, this is something you are masterful at, Matt, I mean, really and truly. And I know it's one of the reasons I love spending time with you and that other people do as well, because you are really listening. You're listening not just to wait for your turn to say something in response, but you're listening and actually really responding to what you heard, often taking time to review what the person said. So let me do some reflective listening. This is what you said, did I get it right? It builds trust in other people. And when people trust you, they are much more likely to want to help you.

• 5:31Matt Abrahams?

  I see. So it's the being present, being curious, and then signaling that you heard that leads to the trust and collaboration, which opens up the opportunity for luck. I like that. What are some of the things that we can do to help prepare us to be lucky, to be open to luck?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  A lot of it has to do with not making things about you, but really making things about the other person. I was thinking about this this morning as I was anticipating spending time with you. And I was reflecting on emails I get from former students, for example, where they need something from me or want something from me. And I look at how they communicate it in a way that makes some of them luckier than others. There's a story that I actually have in my book about one of our former students at NHTHE, Hennessy Scholars, who ended up becoming the videographer for Kamala Harris at the White House. And this was a dream job for a young videographer. And you wonder, how did she get that job? How many people would want that job?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  And her story is so compelling. Her name is Aza. She had taken a course in videography when she was in college. It was the only course on videography that they offered, but she was so taken with it that she stayed in touch with her professor. She built a real relationship over the years and kept the professor up to date on what she was doing. When things were going well, they celebrated together. When she was struggling and looking for a job, her professor was the first person she contacted. She ended up going to graduate school at Stanford and, again, couldn't find a job. After she graduated, she wrote to hundreds of different media outlets and newspapers. No one even responded.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  So she sent a note to this professor, who she had been in touch with for 10 years, right? And had built that relationship and said, gee, I'm really struggling. Do you have any ideas? And the professor said, you know, I just got a call from someone who's looking for the videographer at the White House. Few weeks later, she had interviews and she ultimately was offered the job. It's in contrast to sometimes I get an email out of the blue from someone, someone who I haven't talked into in years, who then has a long list of things that they want. And I think, wow, that was so interesting, that the difference between when you have a relationship and it's built on trust and mutual understanding, as opposed to someone

• 7:59Speaker 01

  who wants something in a very transactional way. Here's a laundry list of things that I need.

• 8:04Matt Abrahams?

  Building that relationship is so important. I want to make sure that we're being very clear. We're not being manipulative. We're building a really honest, true, connected relationship, and from that, possibility comes up.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's about being authentic, and you never know where those opportunities are going to take you. But you can be sure that luck is a long game, and if you build these authentic relationships, good things will result.

• 8:32Matt Abrahams?

  Absolutely. And I can reflect on many points of my life where it is through connections and relationships that have led to opportunity, and it's because of the time I've spent nurturing those from a really honest, authentic place. Many people find it uncomfortable and awkward to do that kind of tending to those relationships. Do you have thoughts and advice on how to do that?

• 8:53Speaker 01

  I love that question because it shouldn't be so hard. One trick I have, something that I have cultivated over the last few years, is that when I spend time with someone, at the end of the time that we spend together, we always make another date. And you figure out what the cadence is going to be. Is it going to be a week? Is it going to be a month? Is it going to be a year, same time next year? Whatever it is, it could be a phone call, it could be getting together for coffee, but that you've actually put a stake in the ground in saying, this is an important enough relationship that I'm going to commit to keeping that volley going. And it's been really transformative because otherwise what happens is months go by and you go, oh, gosh, I haven't seen Matt in a while.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Maybe you reach out, but now it's going to take months to get something on the calendar because everybody's so busy. But if you've already made a commitment, it's there and something to look forward to.

• 9:44Matt Abrahams?

  A technique I use is after I meet with somebody, have a good experience, I'll often send some kind of message acknowledging it and sometimes sharing what the value was as a way to really connect. I love that idea. And it really is that interpersonal connection and communication that matters.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Well, you bring up something very, very important, is acknowledging when people do something for you. I am the queen of thank you notes. I have a habit that every single night before I go to bed, I look at my calendar and I see who I engaged with that day and what was meaningful and send off thank you notes. And not only do I end the day feeling really grateful, and I think there's a big difference between being grateful and being appreciative, I feel grateful for all the good things that have happened, but I also show that appreciation and that is another way to be lucky. In fact, one of the most powerful ways is demonstrating your appreciation because if someone has done something for you and they have taken that time away from something else and you need to acknowledge that investment they've made in you.

• 10:40Matt Abrahams?

  I really like that distinction between gratitude and appreciation and taking the time to do that. And we know there's a tremendous amount of evidence that says well-being and happiness can be enhanced when you take the time to think about gratitude and appreciation. So I really like that. You have a great chapter in your book on unshackling luck through conflict resolution. And when I saw that, I was like, what? Wait a minute. That doesn't make any sense to me. How does conflict dampen the likelihood of luck?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  If you wake up and the first thing you think about is some conflict that you're dealing with, it is a huge distraction. Think about the mental energy we spend thinking about you're being angry at someone or disappointed or frustrated. If you can release that, not only do you feel better, but you've now untangled these knots that have gotten in the way of the relationship. It's really powerful. I think about it all the time. I'll get up and I'll go like, do I have any unfinished business with someone? Do I have anything I need to apologize for or to acknowledge? And it's fun. It's like tending a garden. If you pull the weeds up when they're little, it's easy. It doesn't take much time.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  But if you let them grow into big, huge trees with big, deep roots, then resolving those conflicts is going to take a tremendous amount of time and energy, and you might just avoid it altogether. So keeping your garden clean, or you could say keeping your house clean, keeping your closet clean, keeping things clean frees your mind to be focused on other things.

• 12:11Matt Abrahams?

  You just triggered something I never thought of this, but an apology as a way of opening up opportunity to luck. Usually I feel of an apology is rectifying something negative, and it does that for sure, but it also opens up potential and opportunity. I think a lot of us feel overwhelmed and maybe embarrassed when we have to make apologies or remedy conflict. But if we see it as an opportunity to create something positive, that really does open us to lots of good things.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  You know, I'm one of these people who can easily perseverate on thinking that everybody hates me, right? I can easily go to a place where it's like I did something wrong. And I've learned to ask. You know, it's like, hey, Matt, we saw each other the day. Is everything okay? Usually it has nothing to do with me. You know, there's something going on, but because I am so sensitive, I might interpret the fact that you were distracted, thinking that somehow I had done something wrong. So just checking it out. Hey, Matt, is everything okay with us?

• 13:09Matt Abrahams?

  It is, in fact, and in several of the points you've made, it boils down to not being assertive, but being present and asking and taking initiative. And that's where luck and deeper relationships can come from. I want to come back to conflict because you do something in your book that I found really interesting. You use a matrix to categorize conflict based on whether they stem from personal or professional behaviors versus the values we have. When we find ourselves in conflict, how should we adapt our communication style, depending on whether we're dealing with a behavioral annoyance or some fundamental values clash?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  One thing you should know about me is I loved two-by-two matrices. I turn everything into a two-by-two matrix. It's really a fun way to organize ideas. So this two-by-two matrix is personal, professional, and the behaviors and values. So you can put different conflicts into these different boxes. Like, is this a professional conflict about a behavior, like you're interrupting me in meetings? Or is this a personal conflict about a behavior, like you're leaving your socks on the floor? Or is this a values-based conflict in our relationship, where we really just feel very fundamentally differently about something? Or is it a behavior? So it's very important to realize where you are and then what type of conversation you're having.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  So I know that at the business school, they do a lot of work on nonviolent communication and not crossing the net and saying, when you do this, it makes me feel this way, where you basically take responsibility for how you feel, but not try to attribute anything to the other person. I think that's really good for behavior. But for values differences, the question should be about, tell me more, help me understand. Now, sometimes you have to go back and forth because a behavior conflict might be rooted in a values conflict, but you're not going to know that until you start asking some questions.

• 15:02Matt Abrahams?

  I want to get meta with you for a little bit. I have always admired not only your passion and your creativity, but when you write and when you lecture, you are really engaging. And you hook us in lots of different ways. In your new book, you use this metaphor of the wind. What advice would you give to people who want to make their communication more engaging and connecting to their audience? Because you do it so well.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  I think it's about constantly putting yourself in the shoes of your audience. It's not about me, it's about you. And how can I explain something in a way that's going to really land? And so constantly readjusting your sail to make sure that it's landing well with your audience. In fact, I have a funny little secret. Maybe it's a secret. You know, I give a lot of talks and I always like to be a little bit unprepared. Now you wonder, what does that mean? It doesn't mean I'm not prepared. I'm certainly prepared. But I like to be a little bit unprepared because it makes me much more improvisational. It allows me to be responsive, reactive,

• 16:07Speaker 01

  to see what I'm getting and then tune my presentation to the folks that are in the room. And it gives me a lot more energy because A, I have to be on my toes. But I think the people in the room feel the energy that I'm not doing something that's scripted. I'm doing something that is for them and uniquely for them. In fact, it's one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of being recorded when I give talks. I'm like, you know what? You had to be in the room. The experience is for those people who are there. Because if I'm playing to the camera, it's a very different experience than if I'm just having a relationship with the people who are there in real time.

• 16:49Matt Abrahams?

  By thinking about the audience and what they need really helps you craft the different ways in which you can communicate. You are also a master of appreciating the context. I have seen you teach similar material differently, based on is it in the morning, is it in the afternoon? Big room, small room? All of that I've seen you use, and that's important. You know, I've spent a lot of my last several years focusing on spontaneity. Getting yourself to a point where you have it understood and mapped out, but not memorized or scripted, gives you that freedom to play. And it gives you that confidence from which to play. And to me, that's energizing.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Well, so you know, there's an interesting other piece of the puzzle, right? So you write books, I write books. One of the things about writing a book is it actually gives you all the stories. It gives you a ton of material, lots of Legos, lots of building blocks. So whenever you get a question, you have a lot to work with. And a book is just part of the process of preparing and doing the research so that when you're having a conversation with someone or you're giving a talk, there are many different things. And so that makes it really fresh. It's like, oh, the next time I give the talk, I'll give a different example. I'll tell a different story.

• 17:57Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah, and you don't have to be an author to take advantage of that. You can stockpile anecdotes and conversations to pull them in. And in fact, when I teach people how to do job interviews, et cetera, I say, you should stockpile some examples so that you can pull them in. A good chef prepares the different ingredients in advance so they can assemble them as they're needed, and that's exactly what we're talking about.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Well, I love this idea that when people are going to be interviewing, to think in advance of all the different examples. Think of what would be those building blocks that are going to tell the story and see which ones fit the types of questions you get.

• 18:31Matt Abrahams?

  You've been here before, so you know that we end with three questions. And one I create just for you, and the other two are familiar. And you can keep the answers you gave last time, you can change them. I'm curious, you've spent a lot of time thinking about luck. What's the thing that surprised you the most about? What do you feel lucky to have learned about luck?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  The most important thing is the incredible amount of agency we have every single day. And so whenever I walk into a new room, having the mindset that there is a prize in every room, it's up to me to find it. So I'll give you just little examples. I was just in New York for a couple of weeks because our son and daughter-in-law just had a baby. So I was staying at this hotel, and I would go downstairs and interact with the people at the restaurant, interact with the people at the bar, interact with the people who were at the front desk. I'm I made a point of getting to know every single one. Find out their name, chat with them. And you know what? Magically, all sorts of nice things happened, right?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Magically, they would offer me opportunities like, oh, we happen to have this today. Or can I help you with this? Magically, because I just said hello. One of the last days I was there, I was standing in line to get a cup of coffee in the morning at the cafe. And this young woman, maybe in her late twenties, was there. And I know, don't miss an opportunity to say hello. So I turned to her and I said, oh, you have such a pretty dress on. Which she did. I wasn't lying. I said, you have such a pretty dress. And she said, oh, it's from Rent the Runway. And I said, oh, that's so interesting. I've heard a lot about this from many of my former students who use it. We had a conversation. She said, former students? Where do you teach? I said, I teach at Stanford. She said, oh, I went to the GSB.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  And by the end of the conversation, we were connected on LinkedIn. And she works at LinkedIn, in fact. And it's so funny, because who knows what will happen as a result of that connection? Maybe nothing, maybe something, but it never would have happened if I hadn't said hello.

• 20:29Matt Abrahams?

  I think there's something to people who've been three-time guests on the show. And there are very few. You and Alison Wood-Brooks is the other one. You both say the same thing. You say, look for treasure in every room. She studies conversation and says, look for gold in every conversation. It's that notion of going in with the approach that there's something here. And the curiosity, the listening that I do, might activate it. And that's very different than many of us enter in our conversations. And that sense of agency that you highlighted, I think we make our own luck, and we need to make sure we do.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  And to know that you do. And to know that every single day, the choices you make, this is a very important thing. The choices you make today will determine the choices that you have in the future. And therefore, you're constantly setting the stage. But it is a long game. Luck is a long game. And you can't say, oh, I didn't have a quick win, therefore, it's not working. You have to know that you're investing, and that it compounds over time.

• 21:25Matt Abrahams?

  Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  This is an easy softball question because it's you, Matt. I know, I know, I know. No, but I really and truly aspire to be as articulate and thoughtful and prepared and flexible. And here you've basically made this your life's mission to help people be better communicators, and you're just an incredible model yourself.

• 21:51Matt Abrahams?

  Well, thank you. I appreciate that. We'll see if it makes it into the show, but okay. Question number three and final question for this conversation, and I hope there are many more on the air. What are three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? And I'm wondering if that's changed since you've looked at luck. The prior time we talked about this, we hadn't talked about luck, so.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  It's all about the other person. And you asked me for three, but I'm just going to triple down on that. It's all about the other person. It's all about the other person. Communication and luck comes from really understanding your audience and tuning your messages to them, really listening to them and being fully present with them.

• 22:35Matt Abrahams?

  It is all about the audience. It's understanding their needs and the opportunities that unfold with you two together, and I appreciate that. And I knew it was going to be great having a conversation with you. I am very fortunate and lucky to have you in my life. Thank you for bringing the notion of agency and what we can do to make luck a reality in our own lives. I appreciate it.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. This was an incredible opportunity. I feel so lucky.

• 23:02Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more from Tina, listen to episodes 111 and 159. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community at fastersmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI coach, and book club opportunities.

• 23:47Matt Abrahams?

  Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.