290. Quick Thinks: How to Have Better Conversations About Aging

How can we approach aging with more joy, empathy, and meaningful connection? We often talk about lifespan, or how long we live, but Kerry Burnight https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/dr-kerry-burnight/ believes the more important question is how fully we live along the way. Burnight is a gerontologist, former professor of geriatric medicine, and author of Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half http://fastersmarter.io/joyspan/. Drawing from decades of experience working with older adults, she discusses why adopting a “growth aging mindset” can change the way we think about getting older, and why autonomy matters just as much as safety in conversations with aging loved ones. As she puts it, “it’s not just the big moments, it’s the little moments, too.” In this Quick Thinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Burnight and host Matt Abrahams explore the role of listening, storytelling, and empathy in effective communication across generations. Through memorable examples and actionable advice, Burnight offers a compassionate framework for talking about — and thinking about — aging differently. Episode Reference Links: Dr. Kerry Burnight https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/dr-kerry-burnight/Kerry’s Book: Joyspan http://fastersmarter.io/joyspan/Ep.176 From Stereotypes to Synergy: Communicating Across Generations https://www.fastersmarter.io/176-from-stereotypes-to-synergy-communicating-across-generations/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/290-quick-thinks/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (00:37) - Aging Mindsets (03:05) - Give of the Day (06:33) - Difficult Aging Conversations (14:00) - Explaining Complex Ideas (15:29) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources.

• 0:25Matt Abrahams?

  Be direct, clear, and empathetic. Don't bubble wrap your communication. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to this Quick Thinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast. In my recent conversation with gerontologist Carrie Burnwright, she discussed so many useful approaches and skills that we could not capture them all in one episode. So here, we provide more of Carrie's insights into effective communication we can all benefit from, especially when we communicate with older people. In your book, you have a quiz about your mindset towards aging, and I feel many people have a declining mindset, as you define it.

• 1:07Matt Abrahams?

  Can you describe techniques and ways that we can flip that switch? Because I would much rather have a positive outlook and reap the benefits from perhaps doing so.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Your listeners can think of it, there are two options. One is the decline aging mindset, which is aptly "dam," the "dam" mindset.

• 1:25Matt Abrahams?

  You're damned, yeah.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  And that's the prevalent. That is the cultural norm. That's what, that's our default setting. Then there's the growth aging mindset, and if you put an "e" on it, it could be "game." But the growth aging mindset, in fact, is backed by science. And I think that's what helps. This is not a "put your head in the sand" thing. This is, in fact, knowing that I am going to be able to, for example, solve problems. And I want to give you an example of it, because if people know this, it's going to change the way that they think about their own problem solving. And problem solving is something that we need all lifelong. So I have a colleague who has passed, but he was at Harvard, and his name is Gene Kohn.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  He had a PhD, MD, and he, every week on Wednesdays, he would pick up his parents, who were in their 90s, from the train station. He would pick them up there, help them with their walkers into his car, drive them to his house, where they would eat dinner. And then he would drive them home afterwards. One day, this brilliant son was late. His parents come up to the platform dumping snow. They're looking around, didn't have a cellphone with them. They look over, they see a pizza place. They carefully walk to the pizza place and they say, you know, we'd like to order a pizza and we'd like to have it delivered to our son's house.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  And when you do, we'd like to ride along with that pizza in the car.

• 2:56Matt Abrahams?

  Oh, my goodness. What a great solution.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  He gets home, his parents are there with a hot dinner, ready to go. But if we didn't understand that we can come up with solutions that are not necessarily tech and we need to listen long enough. So people who are ahead of us, our job is to close our mouth for a minute and listen to the solutions that older people come up with. And so often, they have great solutions that we wouldn't even come up with because we're not there yet.

• 3:27Matt Abrahams?

  So look forward to and embrace the benefits that come with age. And I love that example. I think person and food delivery simultaneously, what a great idea. Thank you for that. You, in your book, provide several examples of how we can cultivate joy in our life. The one that stood out the most to me and that I've enjoyed doing the most is give of the day. Can you explain this activity and share how it works?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Yes. So because we know that giving really impacts the quality of our long lives, not to mention benefits others, we need to put it into practice in the same way that we do the physical strength kinds of things. So when people say like, at what age should I start working on my joy span? I say, well, at what age do you think you should start on your cardiovascular health? As early as possible. And what makes your life better between the ages of 23 and 24? Also are the same as of 93 and 94. So it's never too early and it's never too late. You can think of it almost like the way that you lift a weight and you're just doing a few every day, having that ability to.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Look at your day and look for opportunities to give of yourself and that they're small. And so in the purpose literature, Stephen Cole at UCLA did a study and he looked at the epigenetics of purpose or giving or contribution. And what he found is, all variables held constant, those who felt that they had a purpose had different gene expression in inflammation in antiviral load. And it was so robust that they did a piece in the New York Times about it. And he was like, wow, so giving makes a difference. So give of the day is proactively, take a moment, maybe when you're having coffee,

• 5:21Speaker 01

  maybe when you have a little bit of downtime to think, what is something I can find today? And I'm going to give you some examples. You might look in your backyard and you see that there are lemons back there. Pick them, put them in a bag, go next door to your next door neighbor. That takes two seconds, whether they need lemons or not, and that helps with social connection. It's little tiny things, mentoring, listening, sometimes just taking the time to think, I'm going to be fully present in my listening is the greatest give that we can give. But it doesn't just happen and it's not just the big moments, it's the little moments too. And when we think about giving, there is another part of the equation because it does feel good to give and we know about the giver's high.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  But if everybody is just giving, we don't have the other part, which is the receiving. And so something that we need to also learn is how to receive. And so when somebody offers like, oh, your wife is sick, could I bring over dinner? We want to say, oh, no, I got it. But instead to go, thank you, to let. And people say, I'll be happy in longevity as long as I'm independent. And that for me is disconcerting because I know what the path looks like. So I like to think the reality is that we are interdependent. We never really were entirely independent and we certainly, if we're holding our independence

• 6:48Speaker 01

  out as the goal, that's a little bit rougher than saying, I'm going to give and also receive.

• 6:55Matt Abrahams?

  I love the activity and I really appreciate you calling it out. I know that in my father's life, my father has passed, but his ability to accept help There was a fundamental transition when he began to accept it versus fighting it. And thank you for highlighting both sides of that equation. I want to turn our attention to communication. And part of it, I want to look at your communication, but also communication that some of us struggle with. Let's start with not yours, but ours, and I'd love to get your advice. Many of us find ourselves needing to have very difficult conversations around aging, be it talking with people about stopping driving cars, moving into assisted living, other situations. What advice and guidance do you have to help those

• 7:39Matt Abrahams?

  of us who need to initiate those conversations, or perhaps those who are receiving that conversation? What can we do to help make that better and less angst and conflict-filled?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you ask that, because it is the question that comes up every day. And I will start with what not to do, because this is how it goes when you're a gerontologist. I now will pretend that you are the 90-year-old father, and I am your adult daughter at age 60. I'm concerned about something, and so what I do is I go in hot. And I use the only model that I know, which is parenting. So this parenting the parent or role reversal, it's not a good model, because as adults, you as the father, you're not a child, and

• 8:33Speaker 01

  you don't want to be parented. And the reality of aging is, on the one hand, there is safety. Younger people are all about, this isn't safe, safety, safety, safety. But it's not the whole picture. If you look on the other end, it's autonomy. Autonomy is one of the development or drivers of growing older. And so by going in hot, that I, the adult daughter, am going to fix your problem, I'm taking away your autonomy. And you, of course, your natural reaction is back off.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  I got this. I don't need any help because I've threatened you. So, please, adult children, don't go in hot. And I can say this because I've done the same thing. My mom was in the hospital for months. I thought I was being so terrific. I got a hospital bed downstairs so she didn't have to go up the stairs. But I didn't ask her. So she got home and she was sick to see this hospital bed set up without her permission in her nice house. So I do it wrong a lot. And so that's why I can say, so how do you do it right? Okay, let's say the conversation is around driving. Please throw out this thing as, when do I take away the keys?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  I mean, that right there is the biggest red flag. So everyone who's having that thought, please put it away. Step one, just like in all communication, as you well know, is to close your mouth and to listen. Because then the person is not going to feel like you're coming after their autonomy or their personhood, or that you're thinking they're less than. So it would be a series, not just one, not this big sit down. Little conversations where you go, you know, you're just talking maybe about driving, right? So you're not going after them in any way. And then maybe, in my case, with my mom, she was having more nicks on her car.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  So I didn't go in and go, Mom, oh, my gosh, this isn't safe. You know, you could kill someone. Look at that. I learned to shut my mouth and say, tell me more about how driving is feeling. And then she's looking for you to see if you're coming after her. Maybe that's enough for conversation one. Maybe the next conversation, are there parts to it that are getting hard? Or are you doing fine? And then sometimes we can say, like, I really like, Mom, how we can talk about these things. Because I know some other families, it's such contention. But look at us, we're just talking. Because I really value you and your decision making and your problem solving.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  How did you, for example, like with your mom, what was that like? Right? So you're putting the person as they should be, as it's their life and they're ahead of you. And yes, you have concerns because you love them and you don't want rough things to happen. Another one is, this is a personal example, my mom's house has treacherous stairs and then the most hard marble or something at the bottom. And so my older sister said, Mom's gonna fall down the stairs and break her neck. You can't let her live here by yourself. I can't believe you're a gerontologist and you let her do that? So I did hold that a bit, but then I did this advice of communication of, in

• 11:56Speaker 01

  a calm way, having conversations with my mom of saying, how do you feel on the stairs? Next time, what would happen if you would fall? Do you ever think about that? And my mom, because she doesn't have cognitive impairment we can especially have, she said, you know something, Carrie? It is critically important for me to live in my house. And I want to tell you something. I probably ultimately will fall someday and I know for sure I am gonna die someday. So I want you to know in advance, you didn't do anything wrong. If you find me bloody on the floor, you know that you enabled me to do what I wanted. It's not the case of everybody, but in that conversation, and I said, oh, gosh,

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Mom, you should talk to my sister too, and to my brother. So we had all these conversations because aging is a time of greater heterogeneity than any other time. Everybody's path is different, everybody's family is different, but the one, the result that's the same is it all ends the same way, is that you pass away. And that's not defeat and doesn't mean that you did it wrong. And so some of these families that I work with where they're just bubble wrapping the person into misery, I think maybe you didn't have the conversations.

• 13:10Matt Abrahams?

  We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free.

• 13:21Matt Abrahams?

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• 14:03Matt Abrahams?

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• 14:17Matt Abrahams?

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• 15:02Matt Abrahams?

  Learn more about how Notion can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. That's all lowercase letters, notion.com/thinkfast to try Notion today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. What a powerful image there. So, many things that you said there that I want to highlight. But first, these conversations aren't just with the person who might be older. It's also with the others who to help take care of them. And you have to coordinate that. And I think a lot of your advice that you gave also applies to those conversations as well. Start with inquiry. Understand that the conversation might be about a bigger issue than you think. So it's not about the car keys, it's about autonomy.

• 15:46Matt Abrahams?

  And break the conversation down into pieces. It doesn't all have to happen at once. And engage the other person in the conversation. Wonderful advice.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  And you will disagree. And that's the part to it, too, is that... And so then you're trying to really think through, to what extent is it their life? And we let people do what they want to do, even if we don't agree? Or then you put in the complicating, sometimes there's cognitive impairment. And that really complicates things because would they have chosen a different path if they didn't have some cognitive change? So I'm not saying it's easy. But I'm saying the more you dig in, the more transparent, the more multiple conversations with other family members, the better.

• 16:31Matt Abrahams?

  Absolutely, absolutely. I want to talk very briefly about your approach to explaining these things. You have a wonderful way of helping people understand very complex and in some cases, highly emotional issues. You use storytelling, you use exemplars, you use very vivid images. How do you think about making complex information more accessible to people? Because in a large part, that's what you do. How do you think through that process? Because all of us in our lives have complex things we have to explain.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  I had not a diagnosis of ADHD when I was younger and needed it. But I just fumbled through thinking, why can I not pay very close attention? And so I have a shorter attention span and I want to get to the point quickly. And so my hope was that I would write a book that get to the point. Like, what do I need to do here to make my life okay? Because I'm scared about growing older. So I just tried to write what I would want to read. So in that regard, I think maybe the ADHD helped me.

• 17:39Matt Abrahams?

  In some ways, you know, and I feel the same way in the books I write, is get to the point. And I like how you use examples, you reinforce, you have catchy phrases, you use quotes, you give activities. All of those are ways to revisit the same point to really help. And I think all of us, in the complexities that we have to describe and explain, can benefit. Well, there you have it. So many useful tools and tips from Kerry Burnight. Please be sure to check out our full episode with Kerry and give her book Joyspan a read. Thank you for tuning into this Quick Thinks episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us

• 18:23Matt Abrahams?

  on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out FasterSmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community at FasterSmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's FasterSmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community.

• 18:59Matt Abrahams?

  Thanks for joining me for this Quick Thinks episode. If these takeaways were helpful, I'd love for you to listen to the full episode that started this conversation. There's more context, more stories, and more tools to support your communication. Give it a listen. And as always, thanks for your support. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.