281. Be Clear, Be Concise, Be Remembered: Masters of Scale

Great communication isn’t about saying more—it’s about making what you say matter. If we want to communicate more effectively, we need to treat communication less like a habit—and more like a series of intentional choices. In this special feed drop, we’re featuring a conversation from the ⁠Masters of Scale⁠ https://mastersofscale.com/ podcast, where host ⁠Jeff Berman⁠ https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/jeff-berman/ sits down with Stanford lecturer and ⁠Think Fast, Talk Smart ⁠ https://www.fastersmarter.io/host Matt Abrahams to explore what it really takes to communicate with intention. Most of us default to what feels natural—long-winded openings, generic pitches, or focusing on what we want to say. But as Matt explains, effective communication starts with the audience. Get to the point quickly. Focus on what’s relevant. “Tell the time, don’t build the clock.” From high-stakes presentations to job interviews and everyday interactions, Matt shares practical, science-backed strategies for showing up with clarity and confidence. Communication is something we all do every day—but doing it well, especially when it counts, takes intention. As this conversation makes clear, small shifts in how we prepare, structure, and deliver our message can make all the difference. Episode Reference Links: Jeff Berman https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/jeff-berman/Masters of Scale https://mastersofscale.com/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/clear-concise-communication/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (02:31) - Communication as a Skill (03:01) - The Impact of Communication (03:39) - Prevalence of Speaking Anxiety (05:40) - Techniques for Reducing Anxiety (08:15) - Core Principles: Repetition, Reflection, Feedback (09:22) - Communication in Education (10:32) - Opportunities to Improve Communication (12:55) - Presenting & Pitching Ideas (15:10) - Setting Clear Expectations (18:27) - Characteristics of Productive Meetings (20:53) - The Role of Repetition in Leadership (21:43) - Structured Preparation for Interviews (23:09) - The ADD Framework for Responses (24:37) - Asking Insightful Questions (25:57) - Defining Communication Objectives (29:03) - Adapting Messages to Different Formats (30:18) - Building Confidence in New Mediums (31:28) - Recovering from Cognitive Lapses (32:54) - The Pace, Space, Grace Framework (34:49) - Navigating Differing Perspectives (36:41) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources.

• 0:25Matt Abrahams?

  Hi, Matt here. On Think Fast, Talk Smart, we spend a lot of time helping you communicate more clearly and confidently, especially when the stakes are high. That's why I'm so excited today to share a conversation I had on Masters of Scale. I join host Jeff Berman to talk about what it really takes to communicate with intention, whether you're leading a team or just trying to think on your feet. We get into some practical frameworks I rely on, like how to structure your answers in high-pressure moments, why most people focus too much on what they want to say instead of what their audience needs to hear, and how to turn communication from a habit into a deliberate set of choices. We also talk about everything from job interviews to big presentations.

• 1:08Matt Abrahams?

  It's a wide-ranging conversation about how to show up and communicate effectively when it counts. Before we get into it, make sure to follow Masters of Scale wherever you listen to your podcasts. And now, enjoy our episode.

• 1:27Matt Abrahams?

  You should start pitches and presentations like an action movie.

• 1:33Matt Abrahams?

  There's something there right away. A lot of people have long preambles. You need to get yourself into the audience's perspective. This is a fundamental tenet.

• 1:45Matt Abrahams?

  Matt Abrahams knows what it takes to win over a crowd, close a deal, and inspire a team. It's not enough to have a great product or a terrific idea. You need to be a brilliant communicator as well. Neuroscience has taught us emotion gets into our brains differently than information, gets in faster, stays longer, motivates behavior. So do I want people excited or concerned? Do I want them to have FOMO, fear of missing out, or be validated, or just be confident? Think about that emotion.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Furman, your host. Today on the show, communication expert Matt Abrahams. He teaches at Stanford's Business School and has a brilliant podcast called Think Fast, Talk Smart. Whether it's preparing for a big speech, a one-on-one investor pitch, or anything in between, Matt has science-backed strategies to help you succeed. We talk about how to overcome anxiety about public speaking, how to nail a job interview, and much, much more.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Matt, welcome to Masters of Scale.

• 2:51Matt Abrahams?

  I'm thrilled to be here, Jeff. Thank you.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  We're thrilled to have you. I just want to start by asking you, how do you describe what you do?

• 2:58Matt Abrahams?

  So fundamentally, I'm somebody who's really passionate about communication. And really, what I think I do is I help people to hone and develop their communication skills. And a lot of that is really just asking people to turn habits into choices. Most people communicate out of habit, and my job, I think, is to expose them to different opportunities, tools, and techniques, and then ask them to consider, in their situations they find themselves in, to try a different technique out.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  What led you to choose to really specialize in this and to teach others how to be great at this?

• 3:29Matt Abrahams?

  The teaching bug, I think, is just inside of me inherently. I've always loved teaching. I've had lots of opportunities to teach. After graduate school, I worked in the corporate world for a while. I had to pay off some loans, and I just saw the impact that good communication could have on somebody's career and a company's trajectory, and how bad communication got in the way. And so when the opportunity presented itself to do some teaching in this, actually here at Stanford through their Continuing Studies Program, I fell in love with it, and I saw the impact it had, and I really enjoyed learning from my students, and have never turned back.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  I started my career as a public defender, not the obvious place to start for what I do now. And I'll never forget, we had one lawyer who quite experienced and doing this for decades, who told us that they went into the restroom and threw up every single day before court. And it really just struck me as like that you've got literally decades of experience and you're still showing up with that level of nerve. As you work with people on communication, particularly on public communication, how common is this, this like nervousness? And what do you help people understand that they can do to be less nervous, to walk in with more confidence in these rooms?

• 4:40Matt Abrahams?

  So anxiety around communication looms large. We have some evidence that suggests up to 85% of people feel anxiety. And quite frankly, I think the other 15% are lying. Those of us who study it have found it in every culture we've studied. We find it develops around the same time, around when early kid, when kids become early teenagers is when it really becomes more prominent and stays that way. So we believe it's part of the human condition. There's an evolutionary explanation for it. Your relative status in a group matters a lot. Not today, and I'm not telling who drives the fanciest car and has the most social media likes. But when we were a species hanging out in groups of 150 people during our early evolution, your relative status meant everything.

• 5:23Matt Abrahams?

  And it meant access to resources like food, reproduction. And if you did anything that jeopardized that, it could have quite a significant impact. So it's wired into us. Now, that doesn't mean that we can't learn to manage it. I spend a lot of my time helping people learn to manage anxiety. And you can do it both by focusing on the symptoms and the sources. But it is ubiquitous and it is something we have to work at. But over time, we can manage it. I don't think we can ever truly overcome it, as your example shows. Having anxiety tells us that what we're doing is important, gives us energy, helps us focus. But we have to manage it so it doesn't manage us.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Are there truths about managing anxiety that apply to 90x% of the population? Or is it really specific to the individual?

• 6:11Matt Abrahams?

  Everybody is different in terms of what their triggers might be or where the sources are. But there are some things you can do that seem to work for most people. I'll give you a few examples. Deep belly breathing. Really can help. It slows down your autonomic nervous system. It slows down your breath rate. It lowers your breathing so that your voice sounds more normal. So breath work seems to be really important. And what's key is the exhalation. It's not the inhale, it's the exhale. So I like to joke the rule of thumb or rule of lung is you want your exhale to be twice as long as your inhale. And if you do a few of those breaths, just two or three, you'll actually really feel different and better. The other thing that gets a lot of people is shakiness. That's adrenaline.

• 6:55Matt Abrahams?

  Adrenaline's role is to move us from threat to safety. So if you move with purpose, you can give that adrenaline a place to go. So if you're standing up in front of a room, step towards the audience with a welcoming gesture. If you're sitting like this, lean forward, gesture broadly. That gives the shakiness a place to go. And for most people, those two things alone can help many of the symptoms abate. A lot of people just get inside themselves when they get nervous, they get very still. And then somehow magically, they expect to be able to go from silence to brilliance. But if you watch athletes, actors, dancers, there's always movement, there's always warming up that goes on. So my anxiety management plan, and I encourage all of my students and everybody that I coach to develop their own unique plan. I do three things. First, I take some deep belly breaths.

• 7:39Matt Abrahams?

  Second, I do my best to interact with somebody, to have a conversation. It gets me focused. If it's somebody who's part of the audience, even better, because I realize these are normal human beings who want to learn something from me, rather than judges who are there to evaluate. And then I say tongue twisters. Tongue twisters, I know it sounds silly, but what it does is it warms up my voice. And you can't say a tongue twister right and not be in the present moment. Nobody ever sees me do this, but it's a way that I warm up. In fact, before we started today, I excused myself and did a few tongue twisters to get myself ready. Do you have a favorite one? I do, but I'll only share it with you if you do it with me. I'll do it with you, sure. Okay. Now, the reason I like this one is it's short, and if you say it wrong, you say a dirty word. Okay. All right. I slid a sheet. I slid a sheet. A sheet I slid. A sheet I slid.

• 8:24Matt Abrahams?

  And on that slitted sheet. And on that slitted sheet I sit. See where the naughty word comes? Right at the end. Yeah, exactly. You want to slip an H in there. That's exactly right. And I'll do that three times and it gets me present focused and it warms me up.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 8:37Matt Abrahams?

  I like to say there are only three ways to get good at communication, repetition, reflection and feedback.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  And repetition.

• 8:42Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. You got, you gotta do it a couple of times. So you gotta, but nobody ever got good at speaking by thinking about it. You have to do it. That's where Toastmasters, taking classes, those things really help. You have to reflect. Most people are just so glad to be done with it, they move on. You know, there's that definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again. Every night before I go to bed, I spend one minute writing down one thing that went well in my communication and one thing that didn't each day. And on Sunday, I spend five minutes going back and reflecting and I make a plan to address the, an issue each week. I'm not saying I'm a great communicator. I am certainly a better communicator because I do that reflection. And then you have to get feedback. We are not the best judges of our communication. I make my MBA students digitally record themselves and they watch. It's painful.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  It's the worst.

• 9:28Matt Abrahams?

  But they learn so much. I tell everybody it's like going to the dentist. We don't like going, but we're really glad we've been. And not only do they watch it and listen once, they then watch it without sound and then they listen without video. So they're seeing the different channels and that actually highlights more of what they're working on.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Given how central communication is to everything, right? To relationship building, to presentations, to.

• 9:50Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Why, why don't we spend more time teaching this, especially starting early? Like, why isn't this more core to our curricula?

• 9:59Matt Abrahams?

  So I'm heartened, at least here in the United States, that we're seeing a bit more of that. I look at what my kids went through and I have a young nephew and what he's going through, much different than what you and I went through. I, we're of the same vintage. So I think there is a recognition that communication is important, coordination of activity is important. I think part of it is that we just do it naturally. And most people by the age of one are communicating in some way and we just feel like it's just something we do. But when you think about the impact communication can have, it becomes very clear that it's something we should study and look at. You know, when I talk to people who've graduated from our MBA program, one of the things they will say is either they're so thankful they took communication training

• 10:43Matt Abrahams?

  because they see how valuable it is in their work life, or they really wish they would have taken more. So it's one of these things where we take it for granted, but then when we get exposed to it, we really see the value that it brings.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and my rabbi, Rabbi Sharon Browse, wrote a book a couple of years ago called The Amen Effect. It's a beautiful book. But there's a little anecdote in the book about going to the grocery store and going to the self-checkout and looking up and seeing the person working at a cash register and going over, switching, going over and having that moment of human interaction, and it completely changing her day as a consequence. As you're engaging with college students, what are you asking them to do or encouraging them to do in their daily lives where they can practice being better communicators? And in the process, perhaps build more community, build more civility, more connection?

• 11:31Matt Abrahams?

  So a few things. One, I ask them just to observe others' communication and see what is it that people are doing? We can be so internal focused that we don't see that, you know, that person pauses before they speak, and that gives a little extra space for the other person to complete their thought. Or like my mother-in-law would do, she was a black belt in small talk, and she would just say, "Tell me more." And just noticing the subtle little things that people do to encourage communication or shut down communication. So part of it is observation. The other part is really helping people listen better. Most of us are not good listeners. So really teaching listening skills, which force people to be more present and connective, and then paraphrasing skills.

• 12:14Matt Abrahams?

  So it's not enough just to get your point across, but when you hear somebody else's point, demonstrate that you heard that point. So giving them tools and techniques, and then encouraging them to practice, and then come back and reflect and report out. And it's amazing where students will say, "I learned so much more from this person I was getting to know because I listened and I paraphrased, and I gave the other person the confidence to say more." So it's helping them, scaffolding them to a point where they can feel more connected and comfortable doing those things.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Still ahead, more with Matt Abrahams on how to craft the perfect pitch.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this conversation and much more on our YouTube channel, and be sure to check out the link in our show notes to subscribe to our newsletter.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  I wanted to run Matt through a set of scenarios you might be facing and see how we can get better at communicating in each one of them. We started with pitching a new startup concept.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  When someone's taking an idea out to market and raising money for the first time, or trying to persuade an advisor to come on, what are the mistakes that you most commonly see? And where are the opportunities to get better that are just the lowest hanging fruit to coach people up on?

• 13:47Matt Abrahams?

  So you and I both know Guy Kawasaki. So the first mistake people make is they take too long, right? I love his jet fighter versus a big Boeing analogy. It takes a long time for a big plane to take off. You need to take off quickly. So a lot of people got to get to the punch first. I like to tell people, you should start pitches and presentations like an action movie. There's something there right away. A lot of people have long preambles. You need to get yourself into the audience's perspective. This is a fundamental tenet. I host a podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart, all about communication. The number one bit of advice across hundreds of guests is always know your audience. A lot of people craft a pitch, and that same pitch they give everywhere, you have to adjust and adapt. What's relevant and salient to the people

• 14:30Matt Abrahams?

  you're talking to? You also need to focus on benefits and salience, not features and functions. That's, many people get so immersed in what's going on. My mother has a saying I think everybody should live by. It applies to pitches. Tell the time, don't build the clock. Many people say much more than they need to. Get to the punchline more quickly. And then finally, show, don't tell. Show what this means. Don't just tell us all the different features and function. What, what does this look like? If you can demonstrate it, demonstrate it. But help us in our mind, see what it is. If you can do those things, you will engage people more. And then there's one thing that I, I'd love to get your opinion on.

• 15:11Matt Abrahams?

  When I see pitches, a lot of people put their bios and their experience upfront. I'm not a big fan of that. I, I, I want people to tell me what the idea is, what the value is, and then let me know who you are versus who are you upfront? I don't know if you have an opinion on that. Everybody I talk to thinks the, the bio company slide needs to go in a different place.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Well, there's a fundamental tension for me in a lot of these conversations that are, that are pitch conversations ultimately. Because yes, jet fighter, get to it, be adept. By the way, as a way to get a meeting, I often say, look, can we please set 30 minutes or an hour? But if in five or 10 minutes, you don't think this is going to be valuable for you, kick me out and I will, I will with a smile shake your hand and give you 45, 50 minutes back in your day. Because if in five minutes, we're not, we're not in it, it's probably not going to happen anyway, most likely. But the, the tension for me, and, and I learned this, my first job in the private sector was at MySpace of all places. And ultimately I was overseeing the sales function.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  And I hired an absolutely incredible sales leader, a guy named Andy Weedlin, who I went out on a sales call with. And we sat down and he didn't pull up a deck. And he didn't start by saying what we're here to talk about. He started by asking them how they were doing and what was keeping them up at night.

• 16:32Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  And got them talking about their problems. And five, six, seven minutes in, he's completely adjusted the conversation to speak to what their needs are. And so that tension is often you walk in the room and you don't know your audience as well as you should.

• 16:49Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  So how do you get them in conversation so you can learn what you're actually want to be speaking to?

• 16:57Matt Abrahams?

  I think you ask questions, you do your homework, you do your cyber stalking, you're checking out their LinkedIn profiles, you're looking at their blog posts and substacks. But you come in inquisitive. I think curiosity is the best place to come in in most communication, especially in pitching situations. You reflect what you're hearing, that's where paraphrasing comes in, and you're watching for nonverbals, and you're trying to see how are they responding, reacting. Nonverbals are not always the most accurate, but paying attention can be very helpful. And then start down a path and test and check and see if this is of value to them. One of the things you said that I really want to emphasize is setting expectations at the beginning of the meeting when you said, hey, if we're not connecting in 10 minutes.

• 17:39Matt Abrahams?

  Most people don't do a good job of expectation setting leading up to meetings and events. I'll give you an example. I think the single best expectation setting tool for communication that we seldom use is the calendar invite. We all send invites out with URLs. You can do so much in a calendar invite to set expectations. I challenge you, the next time you schedule a meeting, don't put the word "meeting" in the title. It forces you to make it something that's more active and engaging. Put your expectations, your goals, maybe even your behaviors that you want people to have, or the tools you intend to use in the meeting, in the invite. So people come in ready to go. I put in every invite I have for every meeting I run, either a question that we're going to start with discussing, or a challenge that I want us to address. Most people start meetings by reviewing the previous meeting,

• 18:24Matt Abrahams?

  which I think is ludicrous. Most people don't like going to meetings. So I'm going to start this meeting by reminding you about the previous meeting you didn't want to be in. Let's do something active to get engaged, and then if we have to talk about the previous meeting. So expectation setting is critical. In the moment, determining who your audience is and what you can do to help them is critical, but it involves listening and being silent. And many of us, because we're excited, we're nervous, that's hard for us to do.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  To your point, most of us hate meetings. Their times suck, it feels like I only need to be here for five or 10 minutes, but we've said it for half an hour, an hour. What, especially focusing on an internal meeting, what makes for a great meeting?

• 19:04Matt Abrahams?

  I think a good meeting is where people feel that that value has been provided to them and that they've had an opportunity to contribute and be heard. And that boils down to a lot of the pre-work that has to be done. Do you actually need the meeting? Meetings are often Band-Aids for bigger problems. When I come in and do some of my consulting work, one of the first things I'll do is a communication audit. And I look for the number of meetings that people have and who, how many people and who are those people in those meetings? And it's often a canary in the coal mine for, for a bigger, more challenging issue. So crafting purposeful meetings that have a clear goal. If there's not a need for meeting, don't do it. Meetings don't have to be 30 minutes and 60 minutes. They can be 17 minutes. Take meetings outside, walk. There are lots of evidence that there are ways to be more productive in meetings.

• 19:49Matt Abrahams?

  So really being value driven, having expectations, maybe even seeding some ideas with people to contribute. So if I have a big meeting coming up, I might come to you and I say, I know you're really passionate about this. I'd love to make sure you bring up the points you're concerned with, giving people permission to contribute. So there's a lot of work that goes into a meeting before it happens. I actually think facilitation, meeting, leading meetings, moderating panels, anytime you're facilitating others communicating what you're doing right now. I think it's the hardest communication skill because you have to manage so much simultaneously.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Why is it so hard?

• 20:24Matt Abrahams?

  Well, in this case, it's just you and me. But imagine a meeting where there are multiple opinions. I've got time, I've got goals, I've got to make sure that this connects to something else. There's a lot going on that I have to navigate through and make people feel psychologically safe. Make sure people are contributing. I should be paraphrasing and connecting. There's just a lot going on at the same time. And that's why many people find it very difficult. So. A good meeting is a meeting that's well thought through and that people feel like they have presence and are getting value from it. Some of the biggest mistakes people make is they don't plan, they don't listen, they don't connect the dots of what they're trying to accomplish to what has been accomplished, what needs to be accomplished. And they schedule too many meetings or spend too much time in the meetings.

• 21:09Matt Abrahams?

  So it really, if you are mindful of the experience and plan it, you can actually have people excited to come to meetings.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. You said earlier that repetition is one of the core elements of effective communication. And I think for so many leaders, they get tired of hearing themselves say the same thing over and over again. And I'll never forget Jeff Weiner said, until I start hearing my team say it back to me, I know I haven't said it enough. But there is that tension of like, I know you all have heard me say this 37 times.

• 21:37Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Kind of feel like I should acknowledge that, but I don't want to acknowledge that.

• 21:40Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  How do you help leaders get better at this piece of it?

• 21:43Matt Abrahams?

  So part of it is calling it out. Part of your job as a leader is to repeat and the goal is to get alignment. So repetition is in service of something and reminding yourself of that. That said, there are lots of ways to repeat things without saying the same thing. You can give examples, you can use analogies, you can tell stories. So find different vehicles to communicate the same message.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  I want to set up another scenario where communication can be complicated and ask for both sides of it. It's a job interview.

• 22:11Matt Abrahams?

  Yes.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  From both the candidate and from the hiring side, again, what are the most common mistakes and what are you, what are the most coachable opportunities?

• 22:20Matt Abrahams?

  Let me start with just the methodology I recommend people follow. When you go into a job interview, prior to getting there, obviously you should do your work and research on the organization and the role. Come up with themes that you want to make sure you get across. Maybe one of my themes is that I have deep expertise in this. With each theme you come up with, come up with support of that theme. A support might be a story you tell. Maybe it's a testimonial, or you won an award, or your boss said something. Maybe it's some data, you saved X amount of money over this amount of time. So you have different types of support for your themes. So when I'm in the interview and you ask me a question, I think to myself, that's a great opportunity for me to pull in this theme.

• 23:02Matt Abrahams?

  And because I have the support already there, I'm just assembling my answer. You know, if you go to a fancy restaurant, they don't make every meal from scratch. They have things prepared and they assemble it quickly. If you can do that, that means you're more present and connected in the interview because I don't have to sit there and figure out everything from scratch. I'm a huge fan of structure, structures and frameworks. They're great ways to structure answers. One of my favorite is what I call A D D for adding value. Answer the question, give a detailed example, describe the relevance. So if you ask me a question, I'll answer it, I'll give you an example, and I'll describe the relevance. In so doing, I have just made it easier for you, the interviewer,

• 23:43Matt Abrahams?

  to see the value I can bring, to see that I can think quickly on my feet. And I give you an example that's concrete. For giggles, imagine you're interviewing me to be a teacher of strategic communication at Stanford's Business School. So you're interviewing me for the job I have because at least that way I might have some qualifications. What might be a reasonable question you ask?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Why should we not hire you?

• 24:05Matt Abrahams?

  Why should we not?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Why should we not hire you?

• 24:09Matt Abrahams?

  One of the things that I have a tendency to do is to over-index on applied information. And some of our students would benefit from more theoretical approaches. For example, when I teach crisis management, I'm teaching very specific messaging techniques, not the theories as much. So if you are looking for somebody who is theoretically oriented, I'm not that candidate. But if you want your students leaving knowing how to communicate and having practiced it, then I'm the person you should hire. Answer, detailed example, describe the relevance.

• 24:52Matt Abrahams?

  So I didn't know the question you were going to ask, but I knew exactly how I was going to answer it. And that makes life easier for me.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  What's the question I should have asked you in that mock job interview?

• 25:02Matt Abrahams?

  That's the question. That's actually it.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 25:05Matt Abrahams?

  So I always recommend that somebody have a question because they'll always say, do you have any questions for me? And a lot of people say, no, no, and there's no way. You have lots of good. So I will always ask, what's the question I should have asked? Or I say, what do you wish you would have known when you were interviewing? Or what's the question you would have asked? And in my own life, when I've done that, I have received such great insight. And when I've been on the receiving end of that as a hiring manager, it showed me that this is somebody who really wants to understand the inner workings and the details, which made a mark on me. As an interviewer, my job is to figure out not just if you're the best candidate, but are you a good fit? So I am giving you space to share information with me. And I'm asking follow up questions because that lets me really see your depth of thought.

• 25:51Matt Abrahams?

  And the last bonus or bit of advice I'll give is leverage AI. L L Ms can be really helpful, not to help you create answers. That's not what I'm looking for, but to help you get questions to practice. All athletes do a lot of drills. All musicians do a lot of scales. We can do the same thing. Go to your favorite L L M. Say, I am interviewing for this role in this company. Generate five questions for me. As those questions come up, practice answering them. That's how you get better at it.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  We've been focused more on small group communication. I want to go back to bigger stages. You're standing in front of a room of hundreds or even thousands of people. If it is the National Association of Realtors, you probably have a pretty good idea of your audience and you can, you can speak to your audience. But often leaders are speaking before much more diverse groups of folks.

• 26:40Matt Abrahams?

  Right.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  What do people not get right in those rooms and what's coachable there?

• 26:45Matt Abrahams?

  There are several things I could say. First and foremost, have a clear goal. Understand what you're trying to do. To me, a goal has three parts. Information, emotion and action. What information do you want to get across? And based on what you know about your audience, what's the best way to do that? What's the feeling? A lot of us don't think about feeling. We just want to get through the information. But we've known for millennia, thousands of years, that emotion matters. Neuroscience has taught us emotion gets into our brains differently than information. Gets in faster, stays longer, motivates behavior. So do I want people excited or concerned? Do I want them to have FOMO, fear of missing out? Or be validated? Or just be confident? Think about that emotion. And then is there an action? Most communication, especially for leaders up in front of big groups, there's an action. What is it?

• 27:30Matt Abrahams?

  Is it clear? And is it measurable? You know, I coach a lot of entrepreneurs and during their pitches, they'll say things like, "I want your support." What does that mean? Do you want a check? Do you want a social media like? Be specific. So having a clear goal helps you focus. That's the number one place I think people make a mistake. They aren't clear. Or the person who wrote their presentation was clear, but they weren't clear. Because a lot of leaders don't write their own content. And that can be a problem. You need to, if you're not writing your own content, you need to be very closely aligned with the people who are. And they need to understand your process. The other thing that people do is they don't practice. Think about a stand-up comedian. How many times does a stand-up comedian work on their routine?

• 28:12Matt Abrahams?

  I coach some of the most senior leaders here in this valley. And they'll say, "I got it." I say, "Oh, how much you practice?" "I read the slides last night." You know, you need to live it. You need to speak it out. I don't know about you, but in my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent. When I open up my mouth, I'm not always as lucky. So getting that practice in and practice in the environment where you move around the stage, you feel the lights, you hear the sound of your voice through the speakers.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  One of the paradoxes of the modern moment is it has never been easier to reach people because there are more platforms and they're open platforms. But it's never been more difficult to build real audience because it's so crowded. And AI is only making that more complicated by the day. Whatever you may think of his politics, it has been said of Zohar Mandani that he is just as good in a 30-second social media hit as he is in a three-minute cable news appearance, as he is in a 30-minute speech, as he is in a three-hour podcast. He's kind of mastered each of those media. When you're working with leaders who now have to appear in these many different formats

• 29:19Speaker 01

  on these wildly different platforms, how do you help them get good across the board?

• 29:25Matt Abrahams?

  I think you take a step back and you really think about what do you stand for? What's important for you? What are your key values? And you start from there. And you know, so essentially what I'm saying is you have to be authentic and you have to be true to yourself. You then have to think about how the message plays best on the different channels and platforms. And you might have a really good stump speech or a really good position statement or pitch at five minutes. How can I? It's not just about truncating it to fit the 30 second TikTok. It's what's the core essence of that? Or a piece of that core essence? And how can I say that in the best way? So helping people understand that it's not just message, but channel, all coming from an authentic place. And then it boils down to practice.

• 30:10Matt Abrahams?

  You have to practice for the different modalities. People think I can, you know, if I can do a 30 minute presentation, I can do it in five. Not at all. It's very different. And so you have to get that experience and you have to practice it. And you're right, if you don't, people question. It feels disingenuous. And I think younger people have an advantage over those of us who are older in that they're used to managing personas in different modalities, much more so than I am. I, you know, I barely can do it in front of somebody, let alone on technology.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  So what are you saying to leaders who, who do need to be on platforms where it is just wildly uncomfortable for them to get there?

• 30:49Matt Abrahams?

  Whenever I ask anybody to do something they're uncomfortable with, I ask them to think about another time they did something they were uncomfortable and what, what helped them do that? And it could be everything from the first road race somebody ran to, you know, the first time they had to let somebody go during a reduction in force. Helping people understand that, one, you can do it. And then helping scaffold the different pieces, you know? So if I'm trying, and I'm, I am learning how to be on TikTok myself, which is wildly disturbing to my kids. They do not want me there. But the point is that you need to understand what, what's expected on that channel, what works, and then figure out how you can connect to it. You, you have your own freedom in, in onramps to these different channels and helping, I

• 31:34Matt Abrahams?

  help people try to figure out where's the best place to start. Is it that you're really good at being funny? Or you're really good at asking questions? So let's lean into that when you move to a different platform, a different way. So let's find a strength that will play well in that platform, but first you have to be encouraged.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Matt, you, you referenced.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Where was I going? I just fully lost my train of thought.

• 32:00Matt Abrahams?

  It's quite all right.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Forgive me.

• 32:02Matt Abrahams?

  No worries.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Surreal. Let me go in a different direction.

• 32:05Matt Abrahams?

  We can talk about blanking out.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Let's talk about blanking out. Cause I just blanked out. I just, I had exactly where I wanted to go with my next question. I lost it. What do we do in those moments?

• 32:13Matt Abrahams?

  When you blink out, a great thing to do is to do what you do when you lose your phone or your keys. Go back to go forward. Repeat yourself. Say what you just said before. Most of us can remember that. And that often gives us enough to get on track. If not, find a way in conversation to distract your audience. So I teach the same class very often. I can't remember, did I say this in this class? Did I say that yesterday? So I'll, I'll lose my train of thought. So what I'll do is I'll just pause. And if you ever hear me say this, it means I've forgotten what I need to say. I will say, let's pause and think about how what we've just discussed impacts your life. And what my students do is they think about that. And that gives me that fraction of a second. So can you leverage a question?

• 32:55Matt Abrahams?

  Can you get somebody responding or doing something to buy that time for yourself? I call it a back pocket question. You should have something you can pull out. So when you blink out, repeat yourself. If that doesn't get you back on track, ask some other peripheral question that you've thought about, just like you asked me earlier. You could simply say, what's something I should be asking you?

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Matt Abrahams?

  And that's something I can respond to, and that gives you time to think.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. What have we not talked about that we should have talked about here?

• 33:20Matt Abrahams?

  I alluded to listening a little bit earlier, but listening really is critical in all communication. And listening means we actually have to slow down. I have a colleague who jokingly says, I hope it's jokingly, that listening is that thing I have to do before I get to speak. So when I teach listening, I teach a few things. I learned this from a colleague of mine. His name is Collins Dobbs. Pace, space, grace.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Pace, space, grace.

• 33:46Matt Abrahams?

  It's a way to ace your listening. So you have to slow things down.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:50Matt Abrahams?

  Listening is one of the only skills where we actually have to slow down to take advantage of it. So you have to slow your pace down. You have to give yourself space. You know, for me, as I get older, everything's loud and I can't hear. I have to move to a space that I can. But more importantly, I have to give mental space. I have to stop all the chatter and focus. And then grace, grace to give yourself permission, not just to listen to the words, but how those words are said, where those words are said. That can give you a lot of insight. I'll tell you a quick story. I came out of a meeting with a colleague and my colleague said, how do you think the meeting went? And I immediately heard feedback. So I gave all the constructive feedback because the meeting didn't go well. What he really wanted was not feedback. He wanted support in that moment. I didn't recognize, he came out the back door, not the front door with

• 34:35Matt Abrahams?

  me. He was talking quietly. He was looking down. He was sending me all these signals that I was not listening to. So pace, space, grace helps you listen better. And then the single best tool, I've said this, I've mentioned this before, paraphrasing. When you listen to paraphrase, you have to listen more deeply. You listen for the bottom line, not the top line. So if we give ourselves a little pace, space, grace, and we listen to paraphrase, we learn to listen better. Now, I have to be very candid with you. My wife thinks I'm a fraud when I talk about listening because she thinks I, I need a lot of practice. But we're all working on it.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  We're all working on it. And you're still married. So you know,

• 35:10Matt Abrahams?

  As far as I know.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  You've done something, you've done something right here. You referenced earlier that often if someone's not agreeing with the speaker, that speaker doesn't feel like they've been heard.

• 35:20Matt Abrahams?

  Yes.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  We're in a moment in this country where we really struggle to hear each other and to make each other feel heard. And it feels like there is so much more that divides us than unites us. I reject that perspective.

• 35:34Matt Abrahams?

  I agree. And the research suggests that, too.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  It feels like to build back, we have to start locally, to start one on one, and then in small groups and in communities, what have you. But as you observe this, what do you wish we were doing differently so that we could connect more and, and find those, those things that unite us more than divide us?

• 35:52Matt Abrahams?

  Stepping back and looking at and listening to different perspectives. I really applaud my wife. She does this better than I do. She will look at multiple news sources from different parts of the political spectrum for a particular topic. And that gives her perspective that I don't necessarily always have. So taking that step back and appreciating that there are different perspectives and in hearing those different perspectives. You know, it's, it's trite and cliche to say we're all living in our own little bubbles, but it's true. And we need to peer out and see. And leading with inquiry and curiosity, I think are the ways to really get that going. When you come in guns blazing, here's my position, this is what's going to happen. That, that's off putting. That puts somebody

• 36:36Matt Abrahams?

  in the defensive. But if I come in with curiosity, help me understand that. What perspective do you hold? That invites at least conversation. And again, understanding that We don't always have to agree, and we can appreciate somebody else's perspective. That lays the groundwork for the kinds of conversations you're hoping for and I'm hoping for.

• 36:57Matt Abrahams?

  I love that. What a great place to wrap. Thank you for being with us. Thank you so much. I enjoyed the conversation.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Thanks again to my friend Matt Abrahams for joining us. His brilliant podcast is Think Fast, Talk Smart, and his book is Think Faster, Talk Smarter. I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening.

• 37:18Matt Abrahams?

  Well, thanks for listening to my conversation on Masters of Scale. I hope you learned practical tips that can help you communicate more effectively. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this with leaders breaking down how they build, lead, and scale, you can follow Masters of Scale wherever you get your podcasts. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.