235. Refine, Reframe, Repeat: Make Your Communication a Slam Dunk

The road to mastery is paved with small improvements every day. Communicating can feel daunting at times. What does it take to find your voice in the moments that matter most? As Chiney Ogwumike https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/chiney-ogwumike/ says, “There is freedom on the other side of your fear.” As a professional basketball player, NBA and WNBA analyst for ESPN, and advocate for gender equality in sports, Ogwumike faces many situations where communication is critical. For her, achieving confidence in communication is the same as honing any other skill—embracing failure and refinement through repetition. “The best things in life are things you work out over long periods of time,” she says. “Great people, great communicators, anyone that's working at something, show up each and every day and just chip away, chip away, chip away, until they turn that weakness into a strength.” In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Ogwumike and host Matt Abrahams discuss how practice and preparation can equip us for better communication, transforming fear into confidence, perfectionism into authenticity, and weakness into strength. To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/. Episode Reference Links: Chiney Ogwumike https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/chiney-ogwumike/Ep.166 Why Relying on Talent Alone Will Fail You https://www.fastersmarter.io/166-why-relying-on-talent-alone-will-fail-you/ Ep.153 Listen Up, Leaders: A Record-Setting Coach’s Guide to Communication https://www.fastersmarter.io/153-listen-up-leaders-a-record-setting-coachs-guide-to-communication/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/235-refine-reframe-repeat-make-your-communication-a-slam-dunk/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (00:50) - Communication on the Court (02:32) - Performing Under Pressure (04:41) - Lessons from Great Coaches (06:51) - Embracing Imperfection and Authenticity (10:13) - Strategies for Effective On-Air Communication (13:33) - The Final Three Questions (16:26) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources.

• 0:27Matt Abrahams?

  The effort you put in, in terms of practice and preparation, have a huge impact on the quality of your communication. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to speak with Cheney Agumake. Cheney is a professional basketball player, an NBA and WNBA analyst for ESPN, and an advocate for gender equality in sports. She, along with her sister Nekka, were star basketball players at Stanford. Cheney, I am thrilled to have you join me. Thanks for being here.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. This is definitely a bucket list podcast.

• 1:10Matt Abrahams?

  Shall we get started?

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:12Matt Abrahams?

  Unlike some sports that have time for in-game planning and communication, think of like a football huddle, basketball is incredibly fast-paced. How did you manage to communicate effectively and quickly while on the go?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  The cool thing about sports is that it forces you to communicate. Whether you are someone that is vocal or not, you have to be able to use your voice, find your voice. That doesn't mean you have to talk a lot. It just means that you have to communicate the important messages because we are all one team. Communication is essential when it comes to team sports, and basketball will test that because it's also a cardio sport. So you have to communicate, you have to look, you have to do nonverbal cues. All of that matters when it comes to trying to achieve your ultimate goal.

• 1:54Matt Abrahams?

  And would you work with your teammates to come up with some shorthand or ways of communicating more quickly or in that moment so you could perform better?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. One of the things that I learned from the greatest coach I've ever played for, iconic Tara Van De Veer, is she's very big on symbols. Because oftentimes, there's so many things in this world that can be distractions, that can be things that can be used to sort of deflect what your goal is or what you're trying to achieve. That Coach Tara, she taught us symbols, one, two, three, four, or just, you know, shapes or just, you know, movements that can be read no matter who's in the room, whether that room is a small practice gym or Maple's Pavilion. It's interesting because the best, most gratifying moments that I've had, not just in basketball, also as a broadcaster, is when you're able to work with someone, you're doing something

• 2:44Speaker 01

  at a high level, and you are communicating even non-verbally because it really shows you the essence of chemistry. And I've found that on the court and I've also found it in the studio.

• 2:54Matt Abrahams?

  Wow, so this notion of trust really underlies a lot of this. And it's multi-channel. It's not just the words you use, it's the symbols and the non-verbal that really matter. And working on it makes a difference. And I love that you've seen that both in your playing life, but also in your professional life. Playing professional basketball requires performing under immense pressure. I can't imagine what it feels like to shoot a free throw with thousands of people yelling and screaming. What mental strategies do you use to stay calm and focused during high-pressure situations, both when you're on the court, but also when you're on the screen or in your everyday life?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  It sounds so corny, but it's true. The older I get, the more I realize that these old adages actually make sense. People are saying it for a reason, and it keeps getting passed on from generation to generation. Practice makes perfect. And I love that you brought up the free throw because that was where I had my fear. I was very afraid as a freshman at Stanford University to shoot free throws because I wasn't great at it. But there is freedom on the other side of your fear. Meaning if you go in there and you practice and you do the repetition, a repetition of errors means it shows a lack of intelligence. Like you keep making the same mistakes, it shows that you're not capable of retaining information so that you can be better and erase those mistakes. So for me, I was like a 60% free throw shooter when I came to Stanford and I'm not gonna lie,

• 4:11Speaker 01

  exactly what you talked about. We have our, you know, Maple Pavilion just rocking. I would always tell people my hands didn't feel like my hands because I was over-conscious of what I looked like, what I felt like in that moment. So what did I do? I just went during practice, after everything was done, to the corner and I just kept shooting free throw after free throw after free throw. And now, when I got to the pros, I was so confident in my free throws that people would say, today, you know, end of practice, it's either you make it or we have to run down and back. I'd go up there and I'd knock down my free throw and it was a mental thing. My dad loves the mind over matter. Giving yourself that notion that I have practiced this, I am a master of this, all I have to do is do what

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I do, no matter the circumstance. And so that's sort of what helped me when it came to addressing situations that I felt like were bigger than me, but I knew I could meet that moment.

• 5:03Matt Abrahams?

  So taking the time to confront the fear and practice your way through it. I love that notion of there's freedom on the other side of fear, but you have to commit and do the work and it has great payoffs. And I think a lot of people listening in have fear of speaking in front of others or standing up in high-stakes situations. And there are things that we can do to practice to help. Taking classes, listening to a show like this, doing Toastmaster, there are all these ways to get that practice and those reps in. Thank you for sharing that. You have had several coaches over your career. What have you noticed that great coaches do to motivate their players? And how have you taken some of those learnings into what you do when you have to motivate other people?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  My mom has always had the saying that I have internalized, tiny drops of water make a mighty ocean. And when I think about great coaches and being able to address maybe fears, whether it is communication or performance, I go to that saying and it marries with what Coach Tara, I learned by watching her for four years, showing up as the same person each and every day. And that to me is the number one thing that we can do to be able to put ourselves in a position. To have that growth, I think oftentimes the best things in life are things you work out over long periods of time. And so being in an environment where I have learned and watched so many great coaches

• 6:28Speaker 01

  show up as the same person, whether it's win or loss, approach preparation at the highest levels, and then know that you give your all, no matter what the outcome is going to be, that to me is what moves the goalpost forward inch by inch, not just throwing those hail mary touchdowns. It's like those incremental things that are sustainable, those tiny drops of water that builds an ocean that can change the tides of how you perceive yourself. Great people, great communicators, anyone that's working at something, at a skill, show up as the same person each and every day and just chip away, chip away, chip away at it until the point where they turn that weakness into a strength. And then after turning that into a strength, they go on to another skill and harness that skill set to the point where you're a master.

• 7:12Matt Abrahams?

  I really like your mother's saying of the drops leading into the ocean. I think that's a really powerful metaphor for what you're talking about, which is it takes time and it takes practice and the great coaches focus on the little things. It's not the big thing right away. It's these little steps that get you to that greatness. I do want to talk a little bit about your move into broadcasting. You know, broadcasting, especially sports broadcasting, is a male-dominated profession, although it is changing. How have you dealt with being part of a profession where there aren't lots of people similar to yourself? Many of our listeners can relate to not being like others that they work with in terms of age, gender, experience, et cetera.

• 7:55Matt Abrahams?

  How have you handled that and what have you done to help yourself feel more comfortable, but also help others see the value that you bring?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  So the biggest challenge that I had when I just started becoming a broadcaster, and the way I sum it up is this saying, they see you before they hear you. They judge you before they know you, but they still can't stop you. And being in this field, it's very similar to playing because when I played and I miss a shot and it's on national TV, everyone saw that I missed that shot. Very similar to broadcast. If I forget a player's name or I mess up on a breakdown, everyone's going to see that. That's my voice, that's my face. But one thing I have found that I think people don't realize is perfection is overrated. Missing shots teach you how to make shots. Making mistakes teach you how to protect yourself from having those types of situations in the future.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  And also, I think there's this thing in communication that people don't realize. Not many people, if any, are perfect communicators. We're gonna stutter, we're gonna stammer, we're gonna forget a name, we're gonna forget a place. What you do when that happens is what defines how you are as a communicator. Those are the things where you accept your humanity, and I think that actually makes you more relatable. Being unapologetically yourself, being real, being honest. As long as you believe in it, and you are prepared, and you have intentions in when you are trying to communicate your message, the rest is a non-factor. And so to me, that's the biggest thing. Like, communication is not flawless. It's a learning exercise.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  It's something you continue to grow at. It's something you continue to master. But there's no one that is an absolute, to-the-T, perfect communicator.

• 9:40Matt Abrahams?

  At the end of the day, what you're really talking about is authenticity, right? The bottom line is, be yourself. But this notion of there is no perfect communication and stressing out over it, absolutely 100% correct. You need to come teach my class, because that's one of the biggest messages that I try to get across to my MBA students, is that there is no perfect. There's better and there's worse. But as you said, we learn from that. And what I really like is, you know, the question I asked is, you're in a space where there aren't a lot of people who have your background, have your experience, and yet you have carved out a space because of that authenticity, because of that willingness to just show up and be your best. And if that's not perfect, that's okay. Keep working at it. And I think there's a lesson in there for all of us.

• 10:24Matt Abrahams?

  Now, that requires a certain degree of confidence, though. And it sounds like that confidence has built in you through your preparation, through the support system you have from your coaches, your family. I'd like to talk specifically in detail about the broadcasting you do. You, on a regular basis, are in front of large audiences. What rules and practices have you found helpful in communicating a lot of detailed... Information and yet making it accessible and engaging. It's fun to watch you break down a play or talk about something. But when you think about it, you're covering a whole lot of really technical information. Do you rely on particular tools or strategies to do that?

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are a couple of strategies. And so I guess the easiest way to answer this is to give you a little bit of insight into my routine. So I typically come into the studio earlier than most analysts because one thing I've realized, especially as being a woman speaking on the NBA, people want to be like, oh, but what do you know? You never played in the NBA. What I do know are numbers and facts. So I love sitting down with my researchers because they're the ones that help me substantiate my opinions. In a dream world, having my blanket opinion would be great. But one thing I've realized is people like opinion and also fact to back it up. And so I spend a lot of time with our researchers for every argument that I have, having numbers to substantiate what I'm gonna say.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Then I go up into the studio and this is something that I think is very important because a lot of times people think that, okay, I'm just gonna go and talk. You have to get your mind right for what you're about to do. And so I have two things that I do. I say the serenity prayer, which is God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And then, this is just something I always do too. I say the angel of God, my guardian dear, that prayer. I say that every time I get on a flight too. Just because I feel like I'm entering an environment and I did it before every game. I did those two things before every basketball game too. Just like giving my protection in this moment to my spirituality and also understanding that I have power to really help shape narratives that are my passions. So that's step two.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  So step one is research. Step two is getting my mind into the place where I can perform. And then step three is threes, actually. What I have found is that people can take information the best in threes. When you just have a blanket statement, people are looking for more. You know, LeBron James is the greatest basketball player of all time. Great, now tell me why. Now, if you have a deluge of facts, then you might get lost in the sauce. So three key points are very easy to be retained.

• 13:02Matt Abrahams?

  So like you did as a player, there was a lot of work that went into that. I really appreciate several things you said. First and foremost, you have to have your approach and mindset down. And you found a routine that works for you to help you feel empowered and to help you feel focused. And that's critical. Again, it comes down to the repetition, the practice, the learning, the detail. And then I really like that you are mindful of how you actually structure the information. You don't just give people a deluge of information. You are very mindful of making a clear point and then supporting it, but not with too much detail. And that's, I think, a lesson for all of us, that we have to prepare ourselves mentally. We have to know our stuff, show up authentically, and then package it in a way that people can remember it

• 13:47Matt Abrahams?

  and give them what they need, but not too much more. That was a great distillation of what I think makes for effective communication. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, so we can bring you this show for free. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across. They make it easy for people to know what to do next. Your website can do the same thing. With Squarespace, you can build a polished online presence that clearly shows people who you are, what you offer, and how they can work with you. If you offer coaching, consulting, classes, or other services, Squarespace lets you showcase those offerings, take payments,

• 14:30Matt Abrahams?

  and use a Q&A scheduling so people can book time with you directly. And with built-in analytics, you can see how people are finding and engaging with your site, helping you make smarter decisions about where to focus. So your online presence doesn't just look professional, it helps people take action. Go to Squarespace.com/thinkfast for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code THINKFAST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 15:01Matt Abrahams?

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• 15:42Matt Abrahams?

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• 15:58Matt Abrahams?

  Before we end, I like to ask all my guests three questions. One I create just for you, and the other two are similar across everybody I interview. Are you up for that?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely, I'm down.

• 16:08Matt Abrahams?

  My first question is, if you had an opportunity to speak to young women, women coming out of college or of that age, starting their careers for the first time, what's one bit of advice you would give them beyond what you've talked about in terms of show up, be authentic? You know, is there something else you would share with young women who are entering the workforce or their first career?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I think it's such a unique time, and I don't take these moments for granted. And so what I would share to the rising generation of young women is that you belong, and so does your voice. I think oftentimes in society, we look at the idea of comparison, being the thief of joy, instead of staying true to your own path and being authentically yourself. To me, that's what has changed the game.

• 16:56Matt Abrahams?

  So much richness in that response. The thing that really resonated with me is that you belong and your voice matters. And I, I hope, young women, young men, everybody listens to that and takes that advice. Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  The first person that comes to my mind is Lisa Leslie. Probably a deceptive pick or an obvious pick because I come from the world of women's basketball. But communication is not just what we say verbally. It's how you carry yourself. What are you communicating to the world? You know, I think that's one of the things that I didn't understand until I had a platform and people looked to me as someone that they could aspire to be. If I'm walking down the street, how I carry myself is communication. Just as much as me on the broadcast, just as much as me playing on the court. And so Lisa, in being able to have her as a mentor, the way she carried herself at the time, which was so huge at the genesis of the WNBA, coming off the 96 Olympics, changed the game for so many women in sport.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And then on top of it, to pivot into being a mother, a sister, an entrepreneur, a broadcaster, an entertainer, just an icon, how you carry yourself matters, just as much as what you say. And so I, I always shout her out.

• 18:15Matt Abrahams?

  Let me ask our final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Preparation, authenticity, and purpose.

• 18:27Matt Abrahams?

  I love it. Preparation, which doesn't surprise me based on what you've talked about. Authenticity as well. And then having a clear purpose in mind. And certainly you are somebody who is purpose driven. Chine, this has been phenomenal. Thank you. Not only did you teach a lot of players lessons on the court, you teach a lot of people lessons in your broadcasting. Thank you.

• 18:51Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about leadership and communication from sports stars, listen to episode 166 with Andrew Luck and episode 153 with Tara Van De Veer. This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, Ask Matt Anythings,

• 19:35Matt Abrahams?

  and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.