212. Break It to Make It: Disrupt Your Way to the Perfect Job Fit

Career growth starts with stepping outside your comfort zone. Building a successful career isn’t about following a set path—it’s about knowing when to evolve and embracing change. Whitney Johnson https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/whitney-johnson/ believes that success comes from disrupting yourself—challenging routines, stepping into discomfort, and continuously evolving. “People think staying in their comfort zone is the safe choice,” she explains, “but real growth happens when we take intentional risks.” As a bestselling author and leadership expert, Johnson has spent years helping individuals and organizations navigate change. She breaks down the S-curve of learning, a framework that helps professionals recognize when it’s time to move on, pivot, or double down on their current path. From identifying signs of stagnation to developing strategies for career reinvention, she shares practical tools for making bold moves with confidence. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Johnson joins host Matt Abrahams to explore why mastery can be a sign that it’s time for a change, how to manage the discomfort that comes with growth, and why personal disruption isn’t just a challenge—it’s the key to long-term success. To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/ Episode Reference Links: Whitney Johnson https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/whitney-johnson/Whitney’s Books: Disrupt Yourself https://fastersmarter.io/disruptyourself/ / Smart Growth https://fastersmarter.io/smart-growth/Ep.147 Disrupt Yourself: How to Innovate Who You Are and Become Who You Can Be https://www.fastersmarter.io/147-disrupt-yourself-how-to-innovate-who-you-are-and-become-who-you-can-be/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/212-break-it-to-make-it-disrupt-your-way-to-the-perfect-job-fit/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (01:13) - What Is Personal Disruption? (03:21) - Signs It’s Time to Disrupt Yourself (05:43) - Getting Comfortable with Discomfort (10:40) - Finding Your Next Career Move (14:29) - Ensuring Fulfillment After Disruption (19:04) - Best Career Advice Received (20:37) - Career Regrets & Lessons (22:08) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources.

• 0:27Matt Abrahams?

  Mastery can be motivational. When you know something so well, it could be a signal that it's time to change and disrupt yourself. My name is Matt Abrahams. I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to once again be joined by Whitney Johnson. Whitney joined me for episode 147. As a reminder, Whitney is a globally recognized thought leader, keynote speaker, and executive coach. Whitney is also the award-winning author of Disrupt Yourself: Putting the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work and Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company.

• 1:11Matt Abrahams?

  Finally, Whitney hosts the aptly named podcast, Disrupt Yourself. I was fortunate to be a guest on her show, and we had a great conversation, as we do here. Welcome, Whitney. I loved our prior conversation where we talked extensively about how to use disruption to further our careers and our goals. Thanks so much for being here.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Happy to be here.

• 1:32Matt Abrahams?

  Excellent. Shall we get started?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 1:35Matt Abrahams?

  All right. So as a reminder to those listening in, can you redefine for us what you mean by personal disruption for personal growth? And share how this type of disruption can really set our careers into flight?

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Most of us are familiar with the word disruption. We've heard it, something that Clayton Christensen wrote. It was this disruptive innovation, and we typically apply it to products and services and companies and countries. But I had this aha, as I was working with him, that disruption wasn't just all those things, it was actually about people, that you could in fact disrupt yourself. But the big difference with personal disruption is whereas with every other kind of disruption, you are disrupting something else. So for example, ChatGPT is disrupting the copywriter that's writing your email. In this particular case, you are disrupting you. You are both the silly little thing and you're taking over the world. And so when I think about personal disruption,

• 2:33Speaker 01

  what it really is, is a deliberate process of self-innovation. It's the decision where you've got these very thick neural pathways, these comfortable routines, these super highways of habit, and you are making the decision that you're going to rewire your brain. You're going to create these new neural pathways. You're going to step back from who you are right now into who you can be. And that's what you do when you disrupt yourself. But it is uncomfortable, because if you think about your life on this graph paper of existence, when you're disrupting yourself, you may be on the Y axis of success at a 12, and disrupting yourself by definition

• 3:14Speaker 01

  means you go down that Y axis of success to a 10 or a 9. But the reason you do it, the payoff, is that you believe that right now your life may be over 1, up 1, over 1, up 1, and it might be perfectly fine. But what you really want, what you believe when you disrupt yourself, is that your life will now be over 1, up 2, or over 1, up 4, that the slope of your line, the slope of your life will improve. And so that's why you disrupt yourself.

• 3:43Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for that very clear definition. And I love this notion of this super highway of habit. And really disruption is about getting off the highway and changing something. And that change comes with at least perhaps a short-term cost, but it has potential for just really a bunch of long-term benefit. I want to dig a little deeper. What are some of the signs that we're ready for disruption? You know, many of us can just be really content and comfortable in our careers. Are there certain signs you look for in the coaching and in the work you do to really encourage people to say, hey, this is now some time for disruption, or at least considering that?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  There are some really specific tells. When you hear a person saying things like, "I've paid my dues," "I could do this in my sleep," when you're no longer slightly nervous about anything that you're doing, when you haven't learned anything recently, when you find yourself saying to your colleagues, "That's just how we do things here," those are usually pretty good signs that you are in a place where you have started to get bored. And because you are at what I call the top of an S curve, you've reached this mountain peak. You're no longer learning, you're no longer getting dopamine, and mountain climbers will tell you that any altitude above 26,000

• 5:05Speaker 01

  feet is known as the death zone. You're so high up, your brain and body literally start to die. When you get to this place where you're saying things like, "I've paid my dues," or "I could dial it in," you are so high up, you're stagnating in such a way that if you don't disrupt yourself and do something new, your brain and your body will literally start to die. And I guess there's one other tell that I would say is that when you have this feeling, and sometimes you can't really even articulate it, but you can feel deep inside of you that you were meant to do more on this planet, usually that's a sign that it's time for you to disrupt yourself. And if you don't, if you

• 5:46Speaker 01

  don't listen to it, you may start underperforming, or in some cases, you will get pushed, you will be disrupted, because the universe will give you a nudge, because growth is our default setting. And if you won't do it for yourself, the universe will give you that opportunity for you to continue to grow.

• 6:05Matt Abrahams?

  Growth is our default setting. I really like that. I think in many cases, in reflecting on my own life, there have been times where I guess I've worked against the default, and then I've become very unhappy or complacent. And I really appreciate the very specific things that you itemize. I reflect back on a job I had, and I said to myself, "I know how to do this. I can do this in my sleep." And within two months, I was looking for new work. I'd love for you One, to briefly summarize the S curve, because I know that's really important for the work you do. And then second, disrupting ourselves can be uncomfortable by definition, right? We're moving out of our comfort zone. So if you have some advice and guidance on how to feel comfortable with the uncomfortable.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  I had the privilege of working with Clayton Christensen in investing for several years. And so I applied this idea of disruption to individuals. But we also, in our investing, were using the S curve. And that was popularized 60 years by Everett Rogers. And he used it to understand how do groups change over time? But I've noticed a trend in myself. I like to apply management theories to individuals. And that's what happened with the S curve. And so very simply, what it does is it allows you to understand what growth looks like and what it feels like. And there are three major parts. There's the launch point of the S curve. And this is the place where your brain is running a predictive model of what is it going to take for me to get to the top of that curve?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Most of your predictions are inaccurate. And so dopamine, the chemical messenger of delight, it actually drops. So the experience that you can have when you do something new is you can feel excited, but also terrified and frustrated and discouraged and impatient to the point that you may find yourself saying, this was a bad idea. I shouldn't have done this. I shouldn't have tried. No, that's not necessarily the case. What's probably the case is that you're doing something new and you're uncomfortable and your brain is really struggling. And in fact, the situation is normal. So that's the launch point of the curve, the dopamine dropping.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  But then you put in the effort, you tip into the sweet spot and you go into that steep part of the curve. And this is where you have these emotional upside surprises. Your dopamine starts to spike. It's hard, but not too hard. It's easy, but not too easy. You feel exhilarated and you feel like you're exactly where you're supposed to be. This is not the time when people look for new jobs because everything is working. But then there's mastery. And that's what we've been talking about. You get to the top of the curve. The top of the mountain, you really like to be master of all that you survey. And yet, there's something built into your psyche that says, "I like being here, but if I stay here, I'll stop growing." So it's a place of mastery in the sense that you've done what you came to do.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  So now, you've got a little bit of dopamine, but not a lot, but you're bored. So at the launch point, growth feels slow, but it's fast. In the sweet spot, growth is fast and it feels fast. And in mastery, growth is in fact, slow. And by understanding all of that, it helps you navigate the process of growth. So to your question that you started to ask, "Well, how do I do this? How do I disrupt myself?" One of the things that I use all the time is that when I do new things and I'm feeling really uncomfortable, I'm like, "Whitney, you're just at the launch point of the curve. It's gonna get easier. You made the decision that you wanted to be here. You're confident that this is the place that you need to be.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  So now, just stay with this discomfort because it will get easier." So that's a launch point strategy or tactic. Another thing to think about is that when you're in mastery and you think, "I don't know that I want to jump. I'm really scared. This is gonna be hard to do something new." I employ loss aversion theory. So we all know Daniel Kahneman, Amos Tversky, they talked about the loss aversion theory and I use it in this way. We sometimes try to motivate ourselves by saying, "You know what? If I do this new thing, it's gonna be so amazing." But we're 2.2 times more motivated by what we'll lose than by what we'll gain.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  So sometimes you can motivate yourself to do something new by saying, "What bad thing is gonna happen? Like, I'll start to underperform and I might lose my job if I'm not willing to jump." And I think the third thing that I would say is to remind yourself, why are you doing this? Allow yourself to connect to a deeper sense of purpose, because if you can be in that deeper sense of purpose, that's going to help you overcome fear. It's going to help you keep going when it's fun, but it's also going to help you be willing to do something new when you're feeling a little bit complacent.

• 11:02Matt Abrahams?

  I really appreciate that explanation, launch, sweep, mastery, and how mastery is actually motivational to move beyond. And you answered the other question I asked, which was, how do you handle the discomfort and concern? And it sounds like what I heard you say is one recognizes that it's totally normal and natural, especially depending on where you are in the curve. And if you can have a deeper purpose that's driving you, that it can help push you beyond some of the hesitation and concern that comes. It strikes me that part of disrupting yourself is to have at least an inkling, maybe even more, about what your potential new career or new way of being looks like. What practices

• 11:46Matt Abrahams?

  can individuals engage in to help them creatively envision this potential future self and potential future career? What are things that we can do to help us do that, that will ultimately help us search for the jobs we want to search for, that we need to search for, and develop ourselves professionally to be prepared for that?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  I think an important starting point is to really be aware of what our strengths are. And that could come across as being very glib and very cliche. But in fact, to start with your strengths is much more difficult than it seems. There are a number of reasons for this. Number one is that because our strengths are something that we do so well and so reflexively and so naturally, we're oftentimes not aware of what our strengths actually are. So that's the first thing. And if you look at what compliments people give you, you're going to be able to start to identify what your strengths are. That's the first piece. But then there's a second piece to this. Is that even when you know what your strengths are,

• 12:50Speaker 01

  sometimes you actually reject them because they're so easy for you. They're so reflexive, you don't think they're actually valuable. And it might even be that over time, people have attached or affixed a label to you around that strength. So you feel like there's this reductionist, like when I was growing up, I played the piano and people would be like, oh, well, that's Whitney. She's good at the piano. I came to reject that compliment, reject that strength, because I didn't want to be solely defined by this thing that everybody said that I was good at. And yet, by rejecting that or any other strength that we have, then we're not doing something that is a natural gift that

• 13:33Speaker 01

  we have. And only, I believe, can we make an idiosyncratic contribution in the world if, number one, we know what our strengths are. Number two, we value our strengths. And number three, we own those strengths. And so I think I would really encourage people to start there as they're trying to figure out what they might want to do. Now, beyond that, I'll give you two other thoughts. I think it's very interesting, and you may have seen the work of Tara Swart. She talks about action boards, not vision boards, but action boards, and pulling up photos, pictures, images of things that might be interesting to you professionally. And the reason that's so important is that oftentimes, when we think about things that

• 14:15Speaker 01

  we might do, our conscious mind immediately says, oh, I couldn't do that. Oh, I couldn't do that. And if we start to have those images or those visions, it bypasses our conscious mind and allows ourself to just explore a little bit more about what we might do differently. So those are the two thoughts that I would suggest is to look at the images that kind of draw you in, that you find yourself curious about, and then importantly, really get to the point where you identify, you value, you own your strengths, because that's going to be a place where you're going to be able to do really great work.

• 14:51Matt Abrahams?

  That's, I think, really good advice. Really understanding what it is you want in a visceral sense, what it looks like, can be very motivating and can help you focus. And then really understanding your strengths and honoring those strengths and respecting those strengths instead of rejecting them. And with that in mind, once you have some of that information, then I think you can start doing exploration, have some informational interviews, check out tools like LinkedIn and look at people's career paths who have similar interests. Spend some time checking out writings, podcasts, other things that people who have done what you're interested in doing have done, so you can get a good sense of what it looks like jumping from one curve to a next.

• 15:35Matt Abrahams?

  And I think that's really helpful, so thank you for that. So, we started by talking about this notion of fulfillment and purpose. I'm wondering if as we come to an end, you can help give us some insights into some of the steps that help ensure, as best you can, I know there's no guarantee, that when you're disrupting your career, disrupting your life, what are some things you can do strategically and perhaps even tactically to increase that fulfillment? Because it's possible that disruption could go the other way, right? It might not lead to something that's more fulfilling. Have you found best practices or things people do that help ensure, or at least point in the direction of success?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  I think there are two aspects to this. So, first of all, I think you point yourself in the direction of success when you're simply willing to experiment. And going back to that statement earlier of growth is our default setting, we're wired to grow. So, you're pointing yourself in that direction simply by experimenting. I do think that there are two things that I think about, but then I'll go to, I think, what's actually where your question is, to ask yourself, do I think that this thing is achievable? And not, do I believe I can do it, but do I believe that I can get to the point where I believe that I can do it, which I think is important. So, there's a little bit of that leap of faith that you're going to take in order to do it. I think there's also a question that you can ask yourself is, is this familiar yet novel? So, there's enough familiarity, there's some

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Research that's done around, you know, you want eighty-five to ninety percent familiar and then ten to fifteen percent novel. So that's going to create these parameters where it's going to feel doable and probably aligned with something that makes sense for you. But I think that the biggest piece is to ask yourself, does this align with my values? And sometimes it's going to align with your current set of values. But sometimes disrupting yourself is about you've made the decision that you want to change your value system. And so will doing that align with the values of who I want to be, who I aspire to be? And what does that need to look like in order for that to be possible? And then the thing that I'm just thinking as we're talking about this

• 17:46Speaker 01

  is to recognize that this is very much an iterative process. This is discovery driven. I talked earlier about this idea of building those new neural pathways. When you're doing something new, it is not a super highway of habit. You have basically put yourself into a jungle and you're creating a cow path with a machete. And that's going to be hard work and it's going to be uncomfortable and you're not going to know what you're doing. And so allow yourself, as you're trying to find your purpose and figure out if this is the right direction for you, is to give yourself some grace. And the last thing I would say is there are going to be people in your life who love you and care about you.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  And they're going to be able to say to you, that makes sense for you to do. I know it's hard right now, but keep going.

• 18:36Matt Abrahams?

  That support can be so important in all of this. It really resonated with me when you talked about the success and feeling fulfilled in our careers, in our life. The way we judge that might change because the value system that we have as we move through that disruption towards whatever that change in career is, will change as well. And we had Dory Clark, who I know you're familiar with. And she echoes what you talked about, this being a time of discovery. She talks about it in terms of hypotheses. And discovery, hypotheses, experimentation are all really talking about the same thing. This is a time of flux, but it's flux with a foundation of purpose and direction. We'll be right back to finish our conversation.

• 19:20Matt Abrahams?

  But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across, they make it easy for people to know what to do next. Your website can do the same thing. With Squarespace, you can build a polished online presence that clearly shows people who you are, what you offer, and how they can work with you. If you offer coaching, consulting, classes, or other services, Squarespace lets you showcase those offerings, take payments, and use Acuity Scheduling so people can book time with you directly. And with built-in analytics, you can see how people are finding and engaging with your site,

• 20:03Matt Abrahams?

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• 20:47Matt Abrahams?

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• 21:22Matt Abrahams?

  So Whitney, before we end, I'd like to ask you two questions about careers. Are you up for that?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  I am, absolutely.

• 21:29Matt Abrahams?

  All right, question number one, what is the best career advice you ever received? And why?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  As I think about this question, it's actually causing me to do a reframe. So early in my career, I had a situation where I was working on Wall Street. My boss had just gotten fired. They probably would have fired me too, but I had good performance reviews. I was pregnant, so that was a good insurance policy. And I had this experience of feeling like they shoved me into equity research, like they disrupted me into this job that I did not want. But as I think about that job, it was a time of tremendous growth, technically, from a leadership perspective, from a personal perspective,

• 22:19Speaker 01

  and it turned out to be a career maker. And the reason that I am drawing on this as the best career advice is that they said to me, Whitney, we think you'd be really good at this. And so I'm thinking about when people say to us, I think you'd be really good at this, and we find ourselves rejecting it. Just stop and stay with it a little bit longer. Try to dispense with all the baggage that might be attached to why you can't hear it. And when someone holds up that mirror and says, I think you'd be good at this, be willing to listen and consider it deeply and thoughtfully.

• 23:02Matt Abrahams?

  I've had a similar experience where somebody said, I think you'd be good at this. And I resisted it. It turned out that they were absolutely right, and it fundamentally changed my career trajectory as a result of that. Thank you for sharing that. Final question, what is one thing you wish you would have done differently in the way you've managed your career?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  I wish.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  That I would have at a much, much younger age seen that discomfort is not a bug, but a feature. I wish I could have understood that. So that when I'm in this place of being really uncomfortable and awkward and not knowing what I'm doing, to recognize that this is simply a signal of encouragement, that I'm in a place where I'm about to grow.

• 23:54Matt Abrahams?

  The discomfort is actually a signal, and it's a signal that good things are ahead. Whitney, good things are behind us based on this interview, and I know they're ahead of us as you and I continue to collaborate. But as everybody listening in can benefit from what you said, this idea of disruption and looking for that change, how mastery can be motivational, and the things we can do to handle the discomfort and the ambiguity that come with it, so useful and so helpful. And a true pleasure to revisit this conversation with you and to learn from you. Thank you so much.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Likewise. Thank you, Matt.

• 24:33Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart. This episode was produced by Ryan Campos, H. Ash, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot

• 25:18Matt Abrahams?

  to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.