Session 488: Understanding Infertility & IVF

In this episode, we’re talking about infertility and IVF with family medicine physician Dr. Chi Johnson. At 33, in the middle of residency, Dr. Chi was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency and told by her first specialist that no one would freeze her eggs. She kept the diagnosis to herself for two years. Dr. Chi joins Dr. Joy to talk about the AMH test that caught it, why she kept looking until she found a Black woman fertility specialist who laid out options, and what IVF looked like day to day, from the injections to a negative first transfer to an early pregnancy loss. She also gets into what treatment costs once insurance caps out, and how her faith stayed hers when her church didn’t support IVF. Dr. Joy and Dr. Chi discuss: Being diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency at 33 What the AMH test can and can’t tell you Getting a second and third opinion Ovarian rejuvenation and other options her specialist presented What IVF asked of her, from daily injections to the two-week wait Grieving an early pregnancy loss and working with a therapist who specializes in it Lifetime insurance caps and the out-of-pocket cost of IVF Why online fertility support groups made her anxiety worse How faith carried her when her church didn’t support IVF How the experience changed the way she sees her body About the Podcast The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/ Connect with Dr. Joy on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hellodrjoy. Where to Find Our Guest Website: thedrchi.com Instagram: @ask_drchi TikTok: @ask_drchi A Love Story Through Infertility:Diagnosis https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSBTYljAaGH/ |Infertility Part I https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSD5GP9ga_x/ |IVF Transfer https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTUCU9lDfdg/ Stay Connected​https://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Hey y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 488 of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. On this week's episode, I'm talking with family medicine physician Dr. Chee Johnson about infertility and IVF. Dr. Chee was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency at 33, in the middle of her residency, and the first specialist she saw told her nobody would freeze her eggs. She's here to tell us what happened next, including what she did when her insurance ran out in the middle of her second round of IVF. Stay with us.

• 1:33Speaker 01

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• 1:38Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 2:51Speaker 00

  Today, we're talking about infertility and IVF with a doctor who's been the patient. Dr. Chee Johnson was 33 and in her medical residency when she was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency, which meant her ovaries had almost no eggs left. The first specialist she saw told her nobody would freeze her eggs and sent her home with nothing else. She didn't tell anyone, not even her mom, for two years. Dr. Chee has been sharing what came after in her docu-series, A Love Story Through Infertility. She told me about the third opinion that finally gave her options, doing hormone injections at 8:00 a.m. before seeing 18 patients, and the lifetime insurance kept she and her husband ran into mid-treatment. She was pregnant with a baby girl when we spoke, and we also talk about the early pregnancy

• 3:36Speaker 00

  loss that came before. So please take care while listening. Here's our conversation.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Chee.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Of course. Thanks for having me. Excited.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm very excited to chat with you. So tell us more about the love story through infertility and what this project means to you.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  So, A Love Story Through Infertility is a docu-series that I posted on basically my journey through infertility, and it was a love story through it. Most people would think of infertility as a rough journey, which it was, but I found love through it. I found love within myself. I found love with my partner, my husband, and I found love with my future baby that I hoped and prayed for. And so it was a story that I felt like needed to be told, and that's what I did. And I found the most beautiful, eloquent way to do it, through social media, being honest, while my journey throughout the years

• 4:43Speaker 03

  of dealing with infertility and my diagnosis. So that's basically what the docu-series is about.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  And you shared that you initially did not plan on sharing so publicly about your journey. Is there something that happened that led you to feel like, okay, I need to share this?

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's tough. I mean, when it comes to something so private and personal, you want to keep that to yourself because, one, you're embarrassed, you're ashamed, you hear all these emotions about a diagnosis that you did not expect to have. And over time, I'm very stronger, I think, and I felt a calling that got me to share this because it was deeper than me. I'm a physician, but I also want to do something many women go through as patients, and we don't think about it enough, especially black women. And so I felt it was necessary for me to be that voice and to speak on such a touchy, sensitive topic, infertility, that many of us are ashamed about, but many of us are dealing with it

• 5:46Speaker 03

  and struggling silently. And this was something that I felt it was needed to do, and I'm really glad I did. It wasn't easy, but the outreach, the messages that I received from women all over the world, sharing their own journeys and how much they needed to hear me speak on it, really solidified that, okay, I did the right thing. I needed to share this story for other people to get hope, to not lose their own love and to keep that faith in their own diagnosis. So it really meant a lot to be able to give that feedback from other women around the world. I know now I needed to share it, and so I'm very happy I did.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you know, this is such a complicated, like, medical situation. I think when you are diagnosed with infertility, kind of going through all the testing, going through all these procedures, and I think a lot of people just feel very ill-equipped, right? Like, how do I know what to do? You know, what do these words mean? And as a physician, right? Like, you may be somebody who may be better equipped than most to kind of go through this, right? But were there even some situations that you felt ill-equipped to deal with it, and how did you manage that?

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Absolutely. So when I got diagnosed, I was only 33. I was a aspiring new doctor. I was in residency and training, and people read my PCOS, the matosis, but my diagnosis was called POI, or primary ovarian insufficiency. And basically, what that means is that my ovaries were not producing, or they didn't have enough egg storage left in my ovaries at that age. Other people may call this as early menopause, essentially. And I started having symptoms. I had the back sweats. I had the fatigue and just feeling very off and didn't know what it was. And so I went to the doctor, got my blood work done, and

• 7:45Speaker 03

  they said, your blood work is fine. But these symptoms continued for a long time, and I went back, asked more questions, had my friends recommend a blood test to get, which was called AMH, and she said-

• 8:00Speaker 00

  What does that stand for, Dr. Chee? Sorry.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Anti-malering hormone. So it's basically a number that'll tell you how much eggs, essentially, you have left. It's not a perfect number, but it basically gives you a way to go where your next steps are. And so for me, my AMH, when I got it back, was undetectable. And the doctor, initially of the NP that was with me, she said, this must be a lag error because there's no way that you're undetectable numbers at this age. And I agreed, as in, this is very odd. So we rechecked it, and the numbers still came back, undetectable, like, so low that they don't have anything. So they referred me to a specialist, and

• 8:47Speaker 03

  during our time, they basically told me with all your labs, your images, you have POI, primary ovarian insufficiency. And that's when I got my diagnosis. I honestly, as a physician, wasn't aware of the diagnosis. This was a problem that we studied heavily in med school. You know, it's rare. You may glance over it. So I was really quick with the knowledge to know what to do next. And unfortunately, that physician that saw me-

• 9:17Speaker 03

  He was older and right male and he did not come at me when he gave me the news. Did not find that have that compassion for me. To understand our group, it was more like this is your diagnosis. I sorry, no one will help me right now, or we can't freeze friends, go away, we'll do that, their noses are too low. And he did not provide any resources to move forward. And so here I am as a thirty three year old woman. A patient, a human, not knowing what to do next. My physician skills went out the window. I didn't have social media like you now to look at other people's stories or things like that. It was just me. My family and friends know I'm still in infertility.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  So I definitely felt alone and now to run those emotional times where. You may know what to do, but you're so stuck in this. This thought of. Why and you go into a depression, you go into anxiety, go into all these emotions. That you just kind of shut down and that's what I did. And so that's how it started in a more similar way. They said, you need a physician. Yes, I should have done more like the person I am now. Completely different than I was years ago, but unfortunately that time I shut down.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that you should have done more. I mean, I think you did what anybody would do, right? Like you said, like training and expertise and all that goes out the window when it's like your experience, right? The thing you might recommend for a patient is different when you find yourself being the patient.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  It was tough. That was tough at that time.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  But they said the person I now would definitely know what to do. But at that stage, it's such an emotional world curse because I always wanted a family. I always saw myself being a mother. I grew up with six other siblings in the house and so that was something that I cherish. And so some just told me like, all right, Cindy, but you ain't doing this.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  It was hurtful. It was hard.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. So what did support look like for you during that time? Like, were there certain people you decided to share that with and how were they supportive to you?

• 11:29Speaker 03

  So unfortunately, I kept it to myself. I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. Yes, I have family and friends. I could have went to one hundred percent. But it was something that was so painful for me. It was hard to admit it to myself. If you're in that state of mind, if you can't admit it to yourself, how can you tell one else this news? It was also going through other personal issues as well. I was in a toxic relationship at the time. So I had a lot of things going against me that didn't allow me to have that freedom to share this diagnosis. So I kept it to myself for a while. It wasn't a couple, till a couple of years later when I. Find it enough to my mother and me and my mother are very close.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  And it took me that long to share her. Cause it was a very emotional time for me. And so I do have that support system. I just. Decided not to share it because it was so hard for me to accept it.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Hmm. So you are dealing with all of this by yourself still in school, right? Like you were in your residency, so you were still in training. So there were multiple stresses happening for you.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  Absolutely. It was. It was a dark time.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  To not say it lightly, but it was a dark time. So at that time. I actually finally got away from that toxic relationship. I moved to Houston because I wanted a fresh start and I thought if I ran away essentially, I'd everything would be great. But that's not how it works. I'm sure you know, kids run away to new problems, gotta deal with it. So I lived in Houston, started fresh, new job. New circles, but then I decided she has time to look into this diagnosis. It's time to get a second, third or fourth opinion. And speak what my options are. And then also try to find myself again. In that toxic relationship, I had somebody telling me physically.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  That my body wasn't what they wanted, how I looked wasn't what they wanted to them. And that was another pain point for me. So I had to go back and find myself again and really love who I was again. And so that's part of the love story of my fertility was. Finding love within me again. Cause I didn't have that. I was mad at my body. I was mad at God. I'd ask so many questions. And so I had to fall in love with who I was and remember. Who I was, that care do driven, smart, ambitious, loving human. I had to find her again and that's what I've been doing for the next few years, just working on me. And yeah, and got my other opinions from other physicians.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  And just be just somehow give me that hope and say, yeah, you have this diagnosis, but. These options are there for you.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 14:17Speaker 03

  That's what I saw.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  So what did it look like to try to get those second opinions? Like after you've had one physician say basically there's no options there, like what are you looking for when you're looking for like a second and third opinion? How did you know that these might be people who would give you more hope and have a better treatment plan for you?

• 14:34Speaker 03

  Well, one for one, I needed a woman. Someone who understands our body and who can kind of sympathize with you a little bit more. I needed that connection. A black woman doctor. I wanted to connect with her again on a different level of being seen. And I did seek our own one, but then the missing piece with the. The second opinion was that she didn't ever give me those options of my other options I can do for myself with this diagnosis. And so again, I felt. Like I felt restricted to this is it, this is the only option you have, you'll only go in one direction. And so that didn't work well for me and that's okay. And so I got another one.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  It took, I think, six months to see her because she was so, I guess, but the missing really didn't so. By the time I saw my third opinion. She was everything I needed, black female, specializes in fertility. And gave me options to look into and to do my research and also that hope that. It's okay, like I see you, but let's do this other ultrasound. Let me see what I can see here. Let's see if we can stimulate this here. And that gave me sense of like, okay. I could do this. And I was still single at the time, so I still needed some kind of connection. And with that position, I left her office just feeling good. I went to her office feeling hopeful.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  And I remember telling her, okay, doc, the next time I see you. I'm gonna worry about the president with me. That's how confident she made me feel. I heard that there's a future now. And lo and behold, fast forward. A year later, I, actually it was eight months later. I came in with my now husband to the doctor's appointment. To help me with the next steps of the fertility journey.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  Hmm. So can you talk about like some of the options she was able to lay out that you feel like other people had not? Like what kinds of things gave you hope as she identified them?

• 16:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. So when it comes to my diagnosis of POI, your ovaries are, your ovaries in your, and your ovaries are low. And so most doctors are just gonna tell you endures. That's your only option. But there are options as far as things are being studied. One of them is called ovarian rejuvenation. Where they basically take your, an apparent PRP, your own clitoral and on your own cells. And they inject it into your ovaries where they, something like stem cells and then regenerate. Don't that area ovaries. So you can have those dormant eggs. In your ovaries that can come to life or set.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  And you're able to do the same things as anyone else would do with stimulation to freeze your eggs. And that was one of the options I had no idea, I've never even do.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  That gave us hope. It doesn't, it's not offered very often or many places in. Different facilities around the US, but there are facilities that specialize in those procedures. And so that for me was out of me. It was, oh wow. And there's also vitamins, certain vitamins that people, women who take can help preserve their eggs as well on their. Fertility journey, they're not ready to have kids there. There are certain vitamins that certain specialists will recommend for them to take. That have studies that show it can help. Your journey along the way. So. Combination of that, taking care of your lifestyle, eating well, course, movements, responsibility.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Things like that make a big difference in just your overall body and calming down inflammation in your. Woman coming region makes such a big difference. And so. That is the hope. That will be the missing piece that people need, like being depressed and being down or. What was me is not a good way to live forward in this journey. You have to be up looking. You have to have a support system and you have to have faith.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Uh huh. And so you mentioned that, you know, you were doing this all on your own for a period and then you met your now husband, right?

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  So what were those conversations like? At what point did you share this information with him?

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. So when I first met him, I didn't think much of it because. I didn't know where this mission is going, but we connected really fast. And it ended up being when we were like, oh wow, like. This is going fast, but really well. And he's so supportive and everything are done. So I think it's time to have the conversation. I was my endures. You know, any relationship, we want to restore that and have somebody that can be prepared. For this type of journey. And so we were on the phone actually and I, I explained to him, I said, hey, I have. This diagnosis that I know you are more children. But I want you to know that the journey will not be easy.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  Like my diagnosis. And I just want to know if you'd be, you know, okay with it. And his first response was, when's the next doctor's appointment? Out of me there. This is no longer your journey. This is our journey. And that was everything I needed to hear. I didn't expect to give that, actually. It was

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  beyond the response I was expected. So having a partner that will not only just say he'll be there, but actually does it in support to you in ways you didn't even know you mean it mentally, spiritually, holding you down is the R N, the R N needed in a journey like this because it's hard to do it alone. But having someone in your corner that uplifts you throughout each step of the way is powerful than any lifting in large. And those I M A injections, those doctor's appointments, they take a lot on your body, on anyone's body, but not

• 20:40Speaker 03

  around the extra stress of a man. No. If he, he need that extra positivity in your life that not only do the injections for you, but will cry for you at night as well, or put a heat card on your side when you're hurting. So it's been a blessing, honestly, if you really say that.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Hmm. So it sounds like he, you know, came into the picture pretty early on when you were working with your newest specialist. So you had taken eight months to a year, it sounds like, to try the things she suggested. So were there another series of testing that you did when you went back to see her and then got good results? Or what was that process like after you went back to see her?

• 21:19Speaker 03

  So since it was early on in our relationship, and we're very spiritual religious people, it was very hard to move forward with creating lives when we weren't married yet, right? So we made a hard decision to wait until we went into that marriage step. And so for a year, from the doctor's appointment to us having traditional, like during running, we lived and improved our marriage or our relationship and had that foundation of God within us first before personally getting any type of procedures or or the patients

• 22:02Speaker 03

  or anything like that. So that was hard because with time, as you know, the time, your chances go lower of how they be. And so we had had to put our feet on the ground that he knows what we ultimately want. And so for a year, we just had to trust before we started anyone. So the first step that we did was the very rejuvenation step. And that was anything experimental, you know, you just have to trust that it works for you. And so really worked from there. And that was our first step before anything. And then we continued on with the two doctor after that. And so that's, it'll probably

• 22:46Speaker 03

  be year two, that's twenty twenty four, and then twenty twenty five was officially when we were able to start the I V F process.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Our conversations here are just the start. Therapy for Black Girls also connects you to care in your own community. As the year winds down, a lot of us start thinking about what we want to feel in the new year. If finding a therapist is on your list, start at the Therapy for Black Girls directory, where over 5,000 Black women practitioners are ready to connect. Search at therapyforblackgirls.com. And therapists, this is a great time to make sure you're listed and your profile is ready for the new year. Join us at therapyforblackgirls.com/start-hyphen-year. A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition,

• 23:47Speaker 00

  a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 24:28Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 24:48Speaker 05

  I'm like a kid when I played music and I make music and I'm constantly asking questions, you know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played, or it's a melody that seems foreign. You know, there's every night you play a show and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio, or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album. So and you, you obviously are the expert here.

• 25:14Speaker 04

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  And so what was that process? I know that there are lots of shots and things involved. You see kind of depictions of this, but what in your like real life experience, what was that process?

• 25:37Speaker 03

  So two months before we got the embryos, thankfully. And then twenty twenty five is the time when we started transferring. And our first transfer in January, we never prepared for this. You just never prepared for this. But it starts with injections, you know, you have the hormonal progesterone, the estrogen patches, same time, same day, every day, nothing changes. And you have to stimulate and prepare your body for a baby, essentially. And every day you're doing that, even through work, you even do everything you have to do, new steps, and you don't mess up anything. Even before that, you're

• 26:17Speaker 03

  getting ultras, you're getting other testing to make sure in your cavity, you don't have these okay. There's so many steps in place in order to be, to hold a baby. And so in January, we started the injections with the progesterone, the estrogen patches, and we had our transfer date pretty early in January. And then after that, you kind of wait for a couple of weeks until you get a positive ordinary pregnancy test. And unfortunately, for, for us, we did not get a process pregnancy test on that first I M A process. And so

• 26:58Speaker 03

  we were devastated because I think we didn't, I wasn't expecting it to be negative. I was just like, oh, this is it. I would not realize the odds of actually getting a positive transfer is not as high as people think. I want to say it's in the, depending on your facility, it can be way from twenty to thirty percent. So it's not that high to have a successful transfer. And I get hurt, it was just so hopeful. And so to get that negative, it almost was like a death check, like reality, like, oh, shoot, maybe not happen. Even through all that that you go through, it still may not happen. And so that was hard to, that

• 27:43Speaker 03

  reality was pretty hard. But we still had hope. And so we were blessed enough to have more embryos to try again. And so we did, and they're trying again in March.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Do they recommend a specific period, Dr. Chi, where like in between attempts for you to wait before you try again?

• 28:04Speaker 03

  So everyone's different. In my situation, I was able to start pretty soon after my next menstrual cycle.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  And so because it was negative, I didn't have, my body just was back to how it was right soon after. So I was able to just wait for my next period to end, and then we went to the doctor and we just had to enter the next, a next transfer date. And that happened to be in March. You can wait, or you can do other testing to make sure everything is right. There's other things that you can do to make sure the timing is right. You can do another biopsy, a reuterus. You can do different things to see what went wrong. But unfortunately, the majority of fail I M A processes, you never know what happened.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  You do everything right. You can eat right. You can have a perfect embryo looking great. And it may still not take. And that's the reality of I M A. It's so unknown. And so we just was hopeful. That's the only thing we have is our faith at this plate. So Roger, we did do it again. And successfully, we had a positive pregnancy test in March. And we were ecstatic. We were like, oh, wow, didn't expect it. But the only thing about this pregnancy was that our numbers were the low side. And so the doctor was like, we're going to have to keep watching your, your numbers because they're positive when

• 29:38Speaker 03

  it's low. The A C D numbers are low. And so we watched it for several weeks. And unfortunately, that pregnancy ended up in a loss. And we had a pregnancy loss in April.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  And so that was rather heartache. Another deep emotional roller coaster of what happened. And you're digging around today, it could have been a year, one year ago. Or you can think about it now, it's just, it's one of those things that, that really people, if you don't experience it, it's hard to explain the feeling. Because it's, you're grieving, right? But there's nothing to see. You're grieving hope, you're grieving what could have been. You're grieving something that happened that could happen in the future, but didn't happen.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  And it's really hard to really take that in. And so that was a hard period for both of us, but my husband was in very strong for us. But I knew he was like, you're not doing well, you need, you need to, we see so right, I can't even say my own with you, you, you need to seek help and talk with somebody. And right from the start, it's just one of those things that you've never been through, right? You don't know, that you don't have the tools to deal with that. Yeah, that's, that was the next step for me was therapy during that time.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Is that the first time in this whole process that you had worked with a therapist?

• 31:16Speaker 03

  No. This was like actually like a specialist, a therapist, a special under in miscarriage and loss. And so I wanted to make sure I had the running that kind of understood this journey.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  I had therapists, I had come up therapists in the past where like, I didn't use during the other, you know, journeys that I spoke about earlier. Just drawing through that diagnosis and not figuring out, like, figure out what to do. So I have worked with therapists in the past. To me, it is hard to find a therapist, but if you are named it, the one you do find one, it's like, okay, I need you. Thank you. So that was a step that I was on and brought to me and it will happen for instance. And how to move forward. But I will say, I say this a lot, it's really hard to navigate the two emotions of grief and hope. And understanding that they both can still coexist. Cause we were still hopeful.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  But I was so sad at the same time.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and probably scared.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 03

  So those two emotions were having a room that they can't coexist. Even as difficult as it really sounds, I learned that and that, that was a, that's right, I was able to move forward.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Can you remember anything in particular about working with that therapist during that time that you found really helpful for you as you continue to navigate this journey?

• 32:42Speaker 03

  I do remember telling her, I want to be to a point where I can tell this story and not cry.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  That was her goal for therapy. Cause every time I even talked about it, even though I thought about talking about it, the tears just came. And she told me, that's okay. It's okay, you don't have to not earn that it, you can just be, you can feel these emotions and still be fine. It's okay to remember what it was, it's okay to have that hope for what it could be. And so I had to be okay with that process. And I think I was so grateful of like, I'm gonna go, I don't wanna cry about it anymore. But she allowed me to just take my time in this process.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  And I think that, if anything, that was the most, the most hopeful and helpful thing that she can done for me.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  And then after the loss in April, when was the next attempt at the transfer?

• 33:51Speaker 03

  So then we took some time away from everything, took a break, wanted to re-center, reset. And really make some changes to our next steps. We wanted to, insurance was changing, different things was changing for us, so we wanted to just make sure everything's online. And we were stressed, it was stressful and crying. So we wanted to be in a place where we were not stressed anymore, we were still living our life, spend time with families, and that's what we did. I have a passion for surgery, I have a passion for giving back. And so I, I'm about to do it, not do that, doing things I love to do. I had things for community of women, I had a wall for suicide awareness.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  I said, have traveled, spent time with my family, went on our anniversary trip in June. Just wanted to live and just stay in the moment of life and not being stuck in the past. Cause I always say, we had hope, it's gonna happen, you said, no, then. And so with all the different changes, we changed clinics, we did one different things. We tried again in August, in the wrong best. So we took a few several months off before trying again. And so in August, with this new clinic, something different about the atmosphere. It just felt different.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  I also tried, I did just something different, I did acupuncture this time as well. And I really felt for some, I don't know, probably crazy, there are some studies on it. But I felt better, I felt better. And so in August, we went in and we had our transfer and we found out we were pregnant in September.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  And that was the number for hot in this time, because it wasn't, oh, let's check the march, it was like, okay, you're pregnant. And so the joy, I'm like, maybe it's the joy that I'm literally knowing my creation, right, and got from series. And find that, where I, I have it. You, if you find, they will open your, the email to the positive test, like, you can feel how much just seeing that positive test meant. And I knew this in my heart, this is it, this is it. It felt amazing, right? I can't even explain, explain your words. Because it's just all the emotions and everything I've been through for the last few years, just came whoring out of that one, you know?

• 36:24Speaker 03

  That just late, it's gonna happen and the patience really was shown. So it was a joyous moment for us in September last year. And so, yeah, we are pregnant right now, I'm pregnant right now. So, yeah, it's been an amazing journey.

• 36:43Speaker 00

  And talk about like the emotions that you've had since finding out about the pregnancy in September, like what kinds of things have happened for you?

• 36:49Speaker 03

  Well, it's just, I, I've just been really, I've just been in a state of gratitude, honestly, like, everything is just grateful. Stayed up peace, just really welcoming all the love from my family. The support from my sisters, my brother, my parents, my friends, especially the ones that knew about the journey, venturing. You don't have to be coasting it, it's a different type of love that people show because I also feel like we all have our own battles. And I can see how great my work should share mine. And they're witnessing a miracle and that gives them hope.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  It gives them a peace of mind that prayer does work and I can see that. And so it's really amazing to just be able to share this joy with so many people, to be honest. I know they see and they see love, they see connection and they just see we in a happy state. And I love that, I love that for me too. So it's just been amazing and I can't even express like how little it's been, but I've been doing every step of the way, even if I'm nauseous. They know, even if I, you know, maybe can't, I think not, it doesn't matter, like, I am so grateful for every piece of this pregnancy journey.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenix. Hosted by public health and policy expert, Dr. Martine Hackett. Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions. Each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 39:29Speaker 06

  My small experience with the discrepancy in the business of music made me angry in the best way. And I wanted to, I wanted to finish, so I started really like leaning into my therapy, trying to get down to like, what matters now? Somewhere Miguelito felt like he didn't have a place to say how he felt. And music was the place that I went to, to say how I felt.

• 39:52Speaker 04

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  You mentioned a little while ago that at some point like your insurance changed. Talk to me about like the insurance piece of this and the cost of this. Like, is this something that is mostly covered by insurance, like all of these steps? Or is this something that you're kind of having to pay for out of pocket?

• 40:20Speaker 03

  Okay, I mean, a bit of both. So I would say everyone's insurance is different. But I have come to realize that there's only the cap on fertility. Most insurances will not indefinitely give you money for fertility. No, that's not gonna happen. And so initially, my first two trials, I've been, we used my husband's insurance. But there was a cap. And so we capped her off. And so we kept out your lifetime. And everything else is out of pocket. So we capped out like maybe half, even half way through the second one. Did one of the second, second one was capped until the rest is out of pocket.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  And so then we were like, okay, now all those charities. And so that's what we had to do, change insurances. And then for mine, there is a limit to them. Because I wanted to use my fertility that's precious. My insurance didn't cover her. So I had to pay an additional fee to get her coverage. And so there's still real pieces that are frustrating, but to us, it's like, it's worth it. We may have to dip into savings, but it's worth it. It's hard. Fertility is not cheap. A lot of women out there want to freeze their eggs. They want to start a family, but they just can't afford it. They want to try IV at the same time, but they just can't afford it.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  They want to try indoors, but they can't afford it. And it's expensive. I really do wish that the system, or rating system, had more latency on women in the process of fertility. Because so many women do this. And companies know that. And so that's where the medications are so expensive. We can't go to CVS and just pay for it out of like, out of pocket. Because no one can afford it. And you need insurance to pay for it, actually. You need insurance to pay for your testosterone shots. Like, you need all this. But it's just so expensive. But I always say I'm blessed to have insurance coverage and a job that helps cover for the ones, things I can't, that isn't, that can't cover.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  And that's one of the blessings of having, I know a lot of women don't have that. And so I wish there was something better for a better system. There are some resources that are out there for women to turn to. I don't know all of them. But if they are able to Google resources for infertility, there are some resources that have grants for women showing infertility who wants to, who need the assistance. It's out there, not many, but it's out there for some coverage. But in the day, it's still expensive.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I was gonna ask, were there any online or in real life, like support groups or communities that you've participated in for maybe other women who are, you know, dealing with similar kinds of things? I know those kinds of things can be helpful. Did you use any of that that you want to share?

• 43:26Speaker 03

  So for me, I'm different. I initially did that, but I got off immediately. It's not for everybody. So initially, we're not a Facebook group. It was like, I can't really remember fertility group, no women. And initially, I was like, okay, these are her stories. But then it also caused me to have fear. Because we're all going to post things about their own experiences, what we're in the world. And then now my body is going like, oh, shoot, this might happen, and he is not for me. Then we're gonna this and we're gonna that. And so putting into a state of fear and anxiety. And so it didn't work for me. Most people like to, like me, just see that and it's a fear that. But for me, I'm already a doctor. I know what's in the world already.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  So now you're telling another person, this is your, you can tell my expertise. I can't do that.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  And so it didn't work for me. I had to get off immediately because it was scaring me of the wrong things. Yes, there are confident, successful stories. And maybe start questioning, why did they get that? Mine didn't get that. They got the first part, and I didn't get the first part. So it could go both ways. But for me, it didn't work. I knew that, I caught it right away. I was like, this ain't over. Too much anxiety. So I had to keep my story for me. What happened for me was for me. This was my stories, my journey. And I had to take out of state television. And so that's why those groups unfortunately didn't work for me. But I can see why it can work for other women. It can be a support group. It can be something where you can pour out what we need or your heart.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  But it didn't work.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. You've mentioned several times how much faith in spirituality was a big part of this for both you and your husband. What are some things that you think faith communities could do to better support women who are dealing with these kinds of concerns?

• 45:16Speaker 03

  That's a good question, because a lot of us have different spiritual walks, different religions that support IVF and don't support IVF. And so it can be isolating a lot of race because there are, it comes to judgment. For me, I'm Catholic. And in the Catholic world, it's not very supported in my learning. But I also have to remember, this is my journey. This is my relationship with God. This is my personal walk. And so my faith, I'm loving to do right what the man says. This walk, it is about my personal relationship and my walk and my journey.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  And so I had to keep that in mind. It's not easy to get caught up in other people's opinions, other people's judgments, and feel like that's, that's for you. But it's not. I encourage women to remember their own, let's just say, what their own desire and how they feel, how proud I'm seeing them. And to kind of silence the noise that comes around, comes around. Because it's not easy. It's not easy. Always remember where, how it started, how did your relationship start? And continue to really work that relationship with your faith. Because the faith honestly has saved me.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  If I relied on what other people think, or what my religion says, or what I'm supposed to do and not supposed to do, I don't know where I'd be. Having that support from your faith and also the support from your support system, your family, your friends, is a key. Because you do need it. Like, this infertility journey can be so isolating because you feel like you're the only one dealing with it. And you feel like no one will understand. Start talking to God first. Have those private conversations first. Write down what you're thinking, kind of feeling in your own private prayer journal. And so that you can reflect that, you can pray that these are your voice talking, then nobody else talking.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  That you can know what you need for yourself and not the opinions of others. So I would say it's definitely tough, but silence the noise around you is the gold key.

• 47:33Speaker 00

  Dr. G, how would you say this experience has changed your relationship to yourself and your body?

• 47:40Speaker 03

  Oh, a big way. Changed it in a big way.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  So whatever I said before, I can be with that relationship, talk to the relationship, and give a diagnosis. I did not write myself. I didn't write what I was doing. I didn't understand why I was doing it. I thought I did everything right, and it still shut down on me. That was my opinion. And going through this whole journey, I realized how much power my body actually does. And it underwrested me that. I did not know what my body could go through and how tough it was throughout this journey.

• 48:28Speaker 03

  And I realized that me around with the noise to judge who I was was a problem. And so once I silenced that, was I okay for who I was and what my body can do and what God blessed me with? I believe that's where the strength started. That's where the strength of this whole journey has begun, started from some of the reason. I didn't know how I was able to get those injections at eight o'clock, go to work and see 18 patients, come back home and do another vaginal insertion, go to bed, wake up again, do the same thing again.

• 49:08Speaker 03

  And still be moving in a power of this theory and saying, aren't you, aren't you going? And so I learned so much that it's not about looking a certain way. It's a lot about the opinions of other people and how you look in a dress, or how you look in tights or heels. None of that matters. It's what's in here, it's in your heart, it's how you feel. How do you feel? Do you have energy? Do you get a sleep tonight? Like, how do you really feel? And I realized that's the power. How you feel will translate to how your body wants. And I realized that. And so that's when I read that pregnant, and all these changes are happening.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Wow, like, that's true power, what my body can really do. Yes, I have all this, this coloration of my body, that's beautiful, there's rippling. Yes, I have a stretch marks, oh, look at that, more life. And so I'm just loving redlining, even more. And if I have a snapback, I'm not snapping back. I'm just gonna take my time and enjoy what I have. I don't have to do that. I'm not pleasing to anybody. But allowing redlining to do what it needs to do, and I love every inch of it. Before that, I would be so self-conscious on certain things. But now it's like, I love who I am. I love my body, what it's doing, and what people, not to look at that scale. Who cares about scale, sir? How do you feel?

• 50:35Speaker 03

  That's the most important thing.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  And looking back, do you feel like there's something you wish you would have known before you started the IVF journey?

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know. I think I really enjoy, just enjoy the process. I don't think if anyone ever told me, watch out for this, or rather this may happen. I don't know that would matter because I truly enjoy figuring it out.

• 51:03Speaker 03

  Like it was a process of just learning and understanding all the changes that come with IVF. It was a learning curve and I enjoyed every second of it. And there was nothing that I can think of that would have changed that. Because either someone called me or prepared me for something, it didn't matter. Because at the end of the day, it's gonna still be my journey and I'm gonna figure it out either way. So yeah, I think it was just, I just enjoyed every step. It burns.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Well, this has been so great, Dr. Chee, to hear more about your journey and to allow you to share so much information that I think will help so many members of our community. Please let us know where we can stay connected with you to hear the next pieces of the story that will be unfolding soon.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, next pieces would be Baby Girl coming out.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  But my Instagram is the most active I am, I don't know, and that would be @drchee. And I'm also on TikTok, same address, but maybe on social media, Instagram. But yeah, this journey has just been so rewarding and I decided to share the next steps. I still share other things on my page because I, I still advocate for women. I still advocate for Black internal health. I advocate for mental health and fertility. There's so many things I feel like I need to have a voice for because of being a physician. I do feel obligated to share and educate and bring awareness to all of this information for women.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  And it's important. And so I hope that my words to you is to resonate with so many people. And so that's what to find our socials for sure. And at the time we laugh.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Yes, you do have some also very hilarious videos as well.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  We'll make sure to include all of that information in our show notes. Thank you again for spending some time with us today.

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Of course. Thank you so much for having me. We'll see each other soon.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Indeed.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  I'm so glad Dr. Chee came on to share her story. You can find her docu-series and everything else we mentioned in the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session488. If you've been through infertility or IVF, or you're in it now, hop in the comments and tell us what you needed to hear. Or come find us on threads at Therapy for Black Girls. And if you're looking for a therapist who works with infertility or pregnancy laws, you can search our directory at therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chibu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

• 53:58Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 54:28Speaker 07

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• 55:59Speaker 01

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