Session 485: Kerry Washington on Animals and Why She Keeps Playing Therapists

This week Dr. Joy talks with Kerry Washington about her new Netflix thriller Animals, where she plays Abigail, a therapist and mother who believes her son has been abducted. They get into how fear shapes our decisions, what Kerry has learned from individual, group, couples and family therapy, and how her family worked through the secret at the center of her memoir, Thicker Than Water. Kerry also shares why she's drawn to messy characters and how she lets them go when the cameras stop. Animals is now streaming on Netflix. About the Podcast The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/ Connect with Dr. Joy on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hellodrjoy. Where to Find Our Guest Watch Animals on Netflix https://www.netflix.com/title/81757047?trackId=259776131&trkId=259776131&src=tudum Instagram http://www.instagram.com/kerrywashington Listen to Street You Grew Up On https://linktr.ee/streetyougrewupon Get her memoir, Thicker Than Water https://bookshop.org/a/20534/9780316497398 Stay Connected​https://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  Hey y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 485 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today, I'm sitting down for a conversation with a super special guest. But first, a quick word from our sponsors.

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• 1:18Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 2:59Speaker 00

  Host Nora Mecklener is back for an all new season of The Head Start, embracing the journey brought to you in partnership with ABVI. As Nora continues her conversations with people living with chronic migraine, she's also reconnecting with familiar voices from seasons past to see where they are now on their journey. Of course, she'll be joined by headache specialist Dr. Christopher Rhine, who offers insight into these challenges and the questions many of us have. So don't miss season four of The Head Start: Embracing the Journey. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  Today's guest has been a familiar face and voice in our zeitgeist for years. She's been the face of hit franchises like Little Fires Everywhere and Imperfect Women. And for years, she was welcomed into a lot of our homes as the powerful, passionate, and complicated Olivia Pope on Scandal. Now she's starring in Netflix's psychological thriller Animals, where she plays Abigail, a therapist whose own life is thrown into chaos unexpectedly. I'm so excited to welcome actress, director, producer, and household name Carrie Washington onto the podcast. We'll get into what drew her to the character of Abigail, the layered questions the movie raises about family, secrets, and fear, and dig into how her 30-year

• 4:15Speaker 00

  therapy journey has shaped her life on and off the screen. We'll also be discussing how the power of storytelling helps us understand ourselves, why Carrie is drawn to complicated characters who aren't always easy to love, and how she's learned to protect her own time, energy, and heart as her career has evolved. Press play and let's dive into the conversation.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Well, Carrie, it is such a pleasure to chat with you today.

• 4:43Speaker 05

  It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we have seen you play so many characters throughout your life and your career. We've seen you as Olivia Pope. We've seen you as me on Little Fires Everywhere. And now we see you as Abigail in Animals. Tell me about what kinds of characters you're drawn to at this stage of your career.

• 5:04Speaker 05

  Oh, that's such a great question. I tend to just be drawn to material that is unearthing themes and ideas that are interesting for me at this point in my life. So for this material, I was really fascinated by the ways that family and marriage were being explored, but within the context of this thriller. And parenthood, you know, I've talked a lot about how it was really challenging for me while I was doing it, that Shonda Rhimes felt so strongly about Olivia Pope not being pregnant because I felt like my body was changing and my life was changing and I didn't know how to embody the character

• 5:49Speaker 05

  while I was going through this very real physical transformation that I couldn't hide. And I was like, Shonda, why can't she just be pregnant? And in retrospect, like looking back, I realized that inherent in parenting a black child is an outsized amount of vulnerability. Like when you become the parent of a black child, it brings up vulnerability. It makes you vulnerable in society. And becoming a parent makes you vulnerable. You know, there's that Barack Obama quote about like, your heart is suddenly outside your body, walking around. But when you're parenting a black child, that vulnerability is increased exponentially

• 6:31Speaker 05

  due to the way that the systems do not believe in the value of life for your child. And

• 6:40Speaker 05

  so parenting has been a theme that I'm really drawn to exploring after Scandal, for sure. But that's taken lots of different shapes and different projects.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, and Abigail isn't even the first therapist we see you play, right? Because we saw you as Paige in Unprisoned. And so I'm curious, as a therapist myself, what are you tapping into when you are playing therapist roles?

• 7:05Speaker 05

  Well, I love therapy. I'm like, I started therapy, you know, like 30 years ago, and I have returned to therapy in different forms with different therapists throughout the years. I've been in family therapy. I've been in couples therapy. I've been in individual therapy. I've been in group therapy. It's all good. Sometimes it's hard to find your person. There have been times in my life where I've had to, you know, let go of somebody, start somebody new. It's not that the road hasn't been bumpy, but I really understand how much value therapy has brought to my life and my process, my experience. And so

• 7:49Speaker 05

  getting to play a therapist is always a joy for me because I think it's wonderful to see black women in the role of therapist, and it's wonderful to see folks in our community utilize this extraordinary tool for growth.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  You know, a lot of people talk about not feeling like therapy is actually helpful or that it doesn't work for them. Can you point to a time in your life where you realized therapy actually was working for you?

• 8:18Speaker 05

  I mean, how much time do you have?

• 8:22Speaker 05

  I, I think I'm, I think I'm lucky in that when I first sought out therapy, it was when I was in college and I was really brought to my knees with my eating disorder. And I often think how lucky I am in a way that I had a psychological challenge that was insurmountable on my own. This was as high functioning as I was in my life, I could not figure out how to fix myself when it came to food and exercise and body image.

• 9:02Speaker 05

  And that powerlessness actually was what forced me to be willing to ask for help and ask for tools that I had not yet been exposed to, to be able to reflect and heal. So, you know, it's, I think sometimes it's like the trauma can lead us to our greatest gifts. And for me, that was definitely the truth.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  So you mentioned that you've also tried group therapy, which is my favorite way to actually practice therapy, but it's also-

• 9:36Speaker 05

  Tell me, why? Why is it your favorite way?

• 9:39Speaker 00

  So I think that there are some breakthroughs and things that you learn about yourself that can only happen in group therapy, or that it would take you very, very long to get to an individual. But because you are in a room with other people, all of these parts of yourselves are like activated and you get to things much quicker, I think, in group therapy than you typically do in individual.

• 10:00Speaker 05

  I think that's really interesting because I guess group therapy is powerful for me, partly because-

• 10:11Speaker 05

  Your therapy group can become a little microcosm. So it's easy to be on your own in an office and say that you're going to change or say you want to do something differently. But when you're in a group dynamic, you have to be accountable publicly. So it's sort of like a halfway march between the privacy and intimacy of one-on-one therapy and then being out in the real world.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Right, yeah. And so you're kind of forced to practice in real time, some of the things that you say that you are struggling with and it happens in life.

• 10:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I also think so much healing comes from knowing that you're not alone. And that is the inherent gift of group therapy is being in a situation where you're like, oh, I'm not the only person who has these thoughts. I'm not the only person who has these struggles. There's a way out and I can see that from sharing experience with others.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  So going back to Abigail, you know, we see her as a therapist and she knows all the language around like fear and panic. And like, how do you manage these feelings in real time? Then of course, when she is faced with this in real life, right? Thinking that her son has been abducted. We realize that you can know something kind of intellectually, but then be very different when it happens in real life. What do you think about decision making as it relates to fear and panic and how it can maybe motivate our decisions?

• 11:36Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness. What a complicated question. I think all emotions are information. And a big journey for me and for Abigail in the film, I think, is being able to experience an emotion and not be driven by it, right? Like to ask oneself, why am I having this feeling? What can it tell me about what I'm wanting or needing? But also, how can I regulate so that I'm able to make good decisions with the information from the feeling, but not be like victim to the feeling?

• 12:19Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert, Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions. Each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:18Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 13:38Speaker 07

  I had this dream of being a musician and everyone I had known was kind of like, you're not good at music. You know, you should probably have other things a backup plan, whatever. Felt like I didn't have anyone close to me and my wife had flown out to visit and she found out I was sleeping in a car. She didn't know. And she was like, let's do it. And she slept in a car with me. And for the first time in my life, I realized that in a life full of what I thought was things happening to me, something was finally happening for me.

• 14:05Speaker 06

  Dude, that's like the most romantic shit I've ever heard.

• 14:08Speaker 07

  It's the coolest thing ever.

• 14:09Speaker 06

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  You know, one of the things that I was most struck by in the film is the decision making around like that forces you to really question your own morals, right? So one thing that you would make when you think it is your loved one and a different decision, maybe when it is not somebody who is like your own son, right? And so I'm really curious to hear your thoughts around like the decisions make kind of when our own loved ones are impacted versus when the decisions maybe impact other people and how we reckon and navigate with some of those decisions.

• 14:52Speaker 05

  I think when I originally read the script for Animals, that idea was something that really moved me. I did a film a few years ago that I'm really proud of. It was actually a play on Broadway first called American Son. And I think I was a therapist in that as well. And in that film, the unspeakable happens. I play a mom whose son is missing and spoiler alert, at the end of the film, I find out that my son has actually been killed by the Miami police. And a lot of what my character is grappling with in that film is the ways in which systems of power, the criminal justice system

• 15:34Speaker 05

  is oriented toward thinking my son is a problem and minimizing the value of his life. And that film, that play, and then the subsequent film, it was so important for me as the mother of a black son to be able to explore that truth and how it impacts families intimately. To take these names out of the headlines and put these circumstances in a real human black body. When I read Animals, I was struck by the idea that the film is asking us to question whether we can actually love all of our children as our own, whether we can have the courage to value the lives of children

• 16:20Speaker 05

  that don't necessarily belong to us, but whose lives are still valuable, regardless of race, regardless of socioeconomics, regardless of immigration status. Can we choose to fight for the value of somebody else's child as if they are our own? And I just think that's a really powerful question that's being posed by the film.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  You know, one of the other things that I found myself really struck by in the film, watching you as this character versus maybe Olivia Pope, who we see always in charge. She is the one who like negotiating the crisis and situation. And in this film, you are not. It feels like there's very little control and there's another like crisis person that comes in to try to take control of the situation. What was it like for you to play this character who maybe was so different than maybe one of your most well-known roles?

• 17:11Speaker 05

  It was so fun. It was actually surreal. The first day she came on set in all white, I was like, wait, what?

• 17:19Speaker 05

  What, who am I right now? And I thought that was really, I think Gillian's incredible in the film. And I thought it was really wonderful to be at a place to have the kind of career that I've been really blessed to have, where I get to play all different people on different sides of a crisis. I spent so many years, seven seasons, playing the person in all white, fixing the problem. And it's a welcome challenge for me artistically to have the creative courage to give up some of that power and be the person who needs help as opposed to the person who can just always give it.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  So, you know, you mentioned that you have played so many different kinds of characters throughout your career. And I think when I look at the reactions that happen like online and, you know, like in writing to a lot of the characters you've played, it feels like there are very dramatic reactions, right? Like people either absolutely love the roles that you play or they are like struck in some ways and like hate the characters. It feels like there's very little in between. And I feel like a lot of that is because they are very human characters, right? Like it doesn't feel like you shy away from like the messiness that actually happens in relationships and love and career.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  And so I'm just wondering what it's like for you to see some of those reactions online and maybe any personal impact it has had on you.

• 18:44Speaker 05

  Hmm. I am definitely drawn to characters that are flawed. And I think that part of that is as a result of the work that I have done on myself through the years, that I understand how messy we all are and how we all make mistakes and how imperfect we all are. Which is why like when a project like Imperfect Women comes across my desk, I'm like, what? Wait, what? That to me is where the gold is. That's our real humanity is not in our perfection. It's in the fact that we're all trying to do our best and that our best looks really different at different times to different people. And it's sometimes not great.

• 19:27Speaker 05

  I think in terms of a personal impact it's had on me, I think of these characters almost as children. And so They're very precious to me and I don't judge them. I really operate from a place of compassion and understanding when I'm developing them and presenting them to the world. But I also understand that people can be triggered by these characters that I try to be very courageous in my work to be as honest as possible. And that brings up a lot for people. People don't always want to think about the things that some of the projects I do invite you to think about.

• 20:12Speaker 05

  And that's also okay with me. But for me, that that's what's most exciting about the work is having the courage to really get in there and say like, I don't want to be perfect, but I want to make sure I understand where this behavior is coming from. So for me, that work is adjacent to psychology because I'm always asking myself how a character becomes who they are. Where are these decisions born? Where is this behavior? What inspired this behavior? I try to really get underneath the hood of why a character makes the choices that they make so that I can justify them to myself.

• 20:55Speaker 05

  Not to say that they're the right choices, but to understand why they seemed like the right choices to that character in that moment. But that's asking a lot of people and people don't always want to do that. And that's okay. I feel like anytime that a character gets somebody talking and thinking, we've done our job.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, and that's a part of why we do so much of infusion of pop culture here on the podcast. Is because I do think that there are films and TV shows and different kinds of media that really introduce us to parts of ourselves that maybe we want to shy away from. I mean, even if you're not ready to confront it at this time, maybe it just plants a seed that later on you will continue to think about.

• 21:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think of that as a privilege. I think it's a privilege to me that people allow me and these characters into their homes, into their hearts, into their minds. Because I do think that entertainment, the storytelling, that narrative has the power to really change people. Either by teaching us, modeling for us who we want to be, or sometimes by modeling for us who we don't want to be. For just allowing us a moment of reflection. Like in some ways, when we sit to watch a television show or a film, it's so similar to the seat we take in meditation. You know, in meditation, we close our eyes and we wait for the images to pass by.

• 22:24Speaker 05

  Because we know that those images and how we interact with those thoughts and images will teach us something about ourselves. And I think the same is true when we engage with film and television. We're taking a seat. We keep our eyes open. But we get presented with stories and we get to ask ourselves how we feel about it, what we think about it. And hopefully in the process, we move our audience members closer to a deeper understanding of themselves and the world around them. And sometimes that might mean that you think that Eleanor from Imperfect Women is messy and not okay. And that's okay. That is great for you to be having that conversation and to ask yourself what you would do in that situation, to ask your partner what they would do in that situation, ask your best girlfriend. And all of that

• 23:08Speaker 05

  is going to help you be more clear about who you are while you're enjoying this entertainment.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, Eleanor definitely was very, very messy.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  So messy, so messy, so messy.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Do you feel like there are parts of yourself that have been uncovered or introduced to you that you feel like you could not have gotten to without playing a certain character?

• 23:32Speaker 05

  All the time. All the time. Characters come into my life to teach me something. Inevitably. Sometimes I'm very clear. The first time I read it, I'm like, oh, I know what this is. And then I roll up my sleeves. This is my moment to explore this. Sometimes I think I know what a character is going to teach me and then I get into the process and it's a whole other lesson or multiple lessons. And that's part of the gift of what I get to do. Sometimes I think I get to live kind of reincarnation in this lifetime. Like if you think reincarnation is like you come to earth and you learn a lesson as a being and then you die and then in your next life, you get to take those lessons with you and you keep evolving. Like I get to do that in this lifetime. I take on a character.

• 24:17Speaker 05

  When I'm lucky, when it's really good and juicy, I'm often stepping into that character's life at a pivotal moment. When they're learning the most important lessons that they're going to learn in their lifetime. That's why audiences even care, right? Because the stakes are high. I get to walk that path, live that life, learn those lessons, have those thoughts and feelings. And sometimes my body does not know the difference. If my body can process my scene work as an actor as if it's reality oftentimes, not always, but at times. And then I get to put her down, weave her lessons into my soul and move on. And carry those lessons with me into my life.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert, Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions. Each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:51Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. So you're helping Will.i.am write hooks. What made "Ordinary People" become the one song from those sound checks you knew you had to make your own? I was just writing for the Black IPs. I wasn't expecting to write something for myself in that session. But I wrote the hook for "Ordinary People" and I recorded a demo and I'm like, I would rather keep "Ordinary People" for myself. This station in Chicago, WGCI, they start playing it before we're promoting it. The song spoke for itself.

• 26:36Speaker 06

  It became the defining song for my first album. I knew it was special, but you never know how special it's going to be and how much impact it's going to have in people's lives. And you never believe that you're going to actually change people's lives with a song. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  What is that process like for you disconnecting from a character once that project is over?

• 27:08Speaker 05

  Sometimes I can't even wait till the project is over to have rituals for disconnection. Sometimes I have to really be clear about it every day. Because I don't always, you know, when I was young and single, I could like live in the trauma of a character all day long. I remember when I was doing Last King of Scotland, I was living in Uganda. I was a mess all the time. Just a mess. I would burn my toast and burst into tears. Like I was a mess. Because I, because I could be, right? Like I had the freedom to sort of be swimming in that crazy emotional landscape of that film. But as a mom and a wife and a leader, a CEO of my company, I can't be like taking home the messiness of a character all the time. I have to have rituals for closure at the end of the day. Often it'll have to do with costume, like some element of like

• 27:53Speaker 05

  a particular ring or a particular wig or a particular purse where like I put those things down. Sometimes I like light a candle and to mark the end of the day. There, there are all kinds of rituals that I have to let the characters go so I can go back into my life. And at the end of a project, I work with an acting coach. I've always worked with an acting coach. It's really important to me to remain a student in my work. And at the end of every project, I have a process with my coach where we talk about, we really get explicit about like, why did this character come into my life? What have I learned from her? What has she taught me? What do I want to keep in my heart? What do I want to let go? And then I put her down and I pick up the next one.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  You've talked recently about being much more selective in the projects that you take. I'm guessing as a function of being a wife and a mom and a leader in you, in the rest of your life. What are some of the things that you maybe are saying yes to or no to that maybe 10 or 15 years ago, you might've said yes to?

• 28:51Speaker 05

  I think I'm more selective than I used to be. And a lot of it has to do with the directors. At this point in my life and in my career, I want to be in working environments where I Am invited to bring my whole self and my best self. I don't want to be in environments where I feel like people are underprepared or abusive or non collaborative. I want to work on material and with directors that are strong leaders and also courageous collaborators. I want to create art with people that I want to be around and who I enjoy.

• 29:36Speaker 05

  These are long days, sometimes 16 hour days on a set. And so I want to make sure that I'm protecting my heart and my time by spending those hours with people that I want to create something great with, because I enjoy being with them and also because I am excited about what we're making together.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  And speaking of new, great things that you are working on, you have a podcast called Street You Grew Up On.

• 30:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  That starts with that very question. So I feel like it is only right that we ask, can you tell us about the street you grew up on?

• 30:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, sure. I started doing this podcast really as a digital series during the pandemic because we were like, what else are we going to do? And my company is named after the street in the Bronx that my mother grew up on. And so one of my incredible employees, who you met, actually Emily, she had the idea to talk to people that I respect and admire about the streets that they grew up on. In our first season, which is still on YouTube, we had Michelle Obama and Eva Longoria and Sarah Paulson, really like fun interviews. And we just kept doing it. We won a Webby Award that first year. We just kept going. And now it's being transformed into a podcast.

• 30:52Speaker 05

  So it will still be on YouTube, but will also be available everywhere you get podcasts. And so I'm asking people about the street that they grew up on. Our first guest is Ben Affleck because of animals. And I grew up on Pugsley Avenue. I feel very connected to Simpson Street, which is the name of my production company, because that's the street my mom grew up on. And we grew up hearing stories of what happened on the roof at Simpson Street and what happened on the stoop at Simpson Street. It's where my family's kind of once upon a time begins in this country. But Pugsley Avenue, it also holds a really special place in my heart. And I write about it a lot in my book, Thicker Than Water.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, speaking of thicker than water, you also talked about going to family therapy as a part of the information that was shared about your conception and all of those things. Do you feel like there was something that was revealed in the therapy room that could not have just come out in a family conversation in your living room?

• 31:51Speaker 05

  I think family therapy really helped us in the transition from this being a secret. How do I say this? Initially, when my parents told me that my dad is not my biological father, that I was donor conceived, it went from being a secret between my parents to being a secret between the three of us and then the four of us, because I quickly told my husband. But I think family therapy, that all four of us participated in at different moments, really helped us to have the courage to take it from being a secret between four people to information that we could share with the world. And that was really powerful and not always easy.

• 32:36Speaker 05

  So I'm very grateful that our family therapy helped us to navigate that journey.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah, and secrets is a big theme in animals as well, right? Like when the closer comes in and says like, hey, if there are any secrets, we got to put them on the table now. So it feels like that has been a theme in multiple places of your work. Can you talk about like your feelings about secrets in a marriage? And you know, your ideas around like how we navigate secrets? Should we have them? Is it okay to have some? Should everything be on the table? What are your thoughts there?

• 33:07Speaker 05

  I'm not in the business of telling other people how to live their lives or how to run their marriages. For me, I think because I was raised in an environment where there were secrets that contributed to a sense of confusion for me growing up and disorientation, I don't do well in environments that are secretive now and in relationships where there are a lot of secrets. Again, I don't want to speak for other people, but for me, it's not a comfortable place for me to be in situations. And I think my intuition, because I think I'm hyper vigilant about secrets in environments because of the environment that I was raised in. And so it's very uncomfortable for me.

• 33:52Speaker 05

  And I don't cultivate relationships where there are lots of secrets. It doesn't really work for me. That's not to say that people can't have privacy. That doesn't mean to me that I have to tell everybody all my business all the time. I can still have private thoughts and different levels of intimacy with different people. But for my family, a big part of our journey, especially between my mom and dad and me, has been to identify that we are, and I say this in the book, as sick as our secrets, that there has been so much healing in the revelation of truth for us. Because of our willingness to be more honest with each other, we've been able to be more intimate with each other. We've been able to be closer to one another.

• 34:34Speaker 05

  And I really value honesty, transparency in my relationships. And it is, it's true. It's a theme I'm very drawn to because it's like a dynamic that I spent a lot of my life navigating, this feeling of like, what's happening? What am I being told? What am I not being told? And so I am really drawn to it in work. You can see it in Scandal. You can see it in Little Fires Everywhere. You can see it in American Sun. You can see it for sure in animals. And when Ben Affleck reached out to me about the project, he said to me that the film is a thriller. It's a psychological thriller. It's a family thriller, he said. But also the film is very much about marriage and about family. And I was like, oh, I wonder how this is going to play out.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  And then I read it and I, I was like, oh, I really, I see that he really wants to explore some of these dynamics around how to be fully yourself in a marriage.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah, and it feels like there are some ties to Eleanor also from Imperfect Women in the secret keeping there.

• 35:38Speaker 05

  Hmm, mm hmm. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I guess there are some ties in the secret keeping and being, being worried that if you fully express who you are, that the people closest to you won't make room for it. And I think that's something that a lot of us fear. I think that idea of wanting to be loved unconditionally, but not being sure that we will be if we're fully honest is a very human condition.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Absolutely. It's what brings a lot of people to therapy, whether they're able to verbalize that or not.

• 36:16Speaker 05

  Hmm, yeah, I think that's right. Of course, you would know better than I would.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  So what are you most excited for people to experience when they are able to watch animals?

• 36:31Speaker 05

  I think what I'm most excited for people to experience when they watch animals is two things. The edge of your seat thriller ride. Like it is very much a like nail biting thriller of an evening, which I think is really fun. And then I also hope that people enjoy this invitation into all the ethical complexity. I'm finding that when people watch the film and we talk about it, it's a little bit of a Rorschach test. Like when people tell me what they think the film is about, I learn so much about them, right? There are people who have said to me like, wow, it's so, even just about Abigail, like it's so interesting to watch a film where you're playing somebody who's a terrible mom.

• 37:14Speaker 05

  And I'm like, is she a terrible mom? Or there have been people who've said like, oh, it's so interesting how much they really love each other, but can't express it. Or it's so interesting to see them stuck in a marriage. Like it's just fascinating to see all the different opinions. And then especially when the plot gets really complicated, how much people are able to admit about how tribal we can be when it comes to protecting our own. It reminds me a lot about the article that everybody's talking about this week in The Times with Paul Hannah Jones's brilliant piece 10 years later about the choices she's made about her daughter. And just that question of asking ourselves,

• 37:56Speaker 05

  are we willing to think about all children with as much love and devotion as we're willing to think about our own children?

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Agreed. I was definitely thinking about the similarities as you've been talking during this interview. So I think that's a great tie in there.

• 38:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Well, where can we stay connected with you, Carrie, and catch animals as well as any other projects that you have coming out?

• 38:17Speaker 05

  Well, you know, we have Animals coming out October 9th on Netflix. So please watch and continue to judge me and put it all in the comments on the socials at Carrie Washington. Love it, love it. You're not judging me, you're judging Abigail. And I get it, she's messy. You know, I like a messy girl. And then Street You Grew Up On, you can follow Street You Grew Up On on all the different socials. And we'll have new episodes every week, really exciting guests this season. We're starting with Ben Affleck, which is a really fun conversation because he really tries to interview me. But also we have Colin Kaepernick and Katie Lowe's and just really, really exciting, fun, Demi Lovato, really fun guests.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Beautiful. We'll be sure to include all of that in our show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. It was a pleasure.

• 39:01Speaker 05

  Thank you, really, such a pleasure. Thank you for the service of what you're doing for people in their healing journeys. You're really, to make therapy more accessible, understandable, sexy for folks is really such a service. So I'm deeply appreciative.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  Thank you, I appreciate it.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  I'm so glad Carrie was able to join me for this conversation and I hope you all enjoy listening in. To learn more about her and her latest projects, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session485. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have movies or books you'd like us to review? Drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at @therapyforblackgirls or come on over and join us in our Patreon community

• 40:05Speaker 00

  for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradburn. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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