Session 483: "You'll Change Your Mind" and Other Things to Stop Saying to Child Free Women

"You'll change your mind." "Who's going to take care of you when you're older?" Black women who say they don't want children hear some version of this constantly, and the decision often gets treated as a betrayal of family and community. Today we're joined by licensed clinical psychologist Dr. Lana Holmes to talk about why a personal choice draws so much outside commentary. Dr. Lana and I chatted about the difference between being child free and being childless, how the legacy of chattel slavery and domestic work still shapes what's expected of Black women's bodies, what dating looks like when you know kids aren't part of your plan, and the missing supports (childcare, perinatal care, safety) that have more people questioning whether parenthood is for them. She also shares what being child free has made room for in her own life. In this episode: Why "I don't want kids" gets heard as a personal attack, and how cisheteropatriarchy and misogynoir feed that reaction What gets lost when we collapse child free and childless into one category The strong Black woman and mammy archetypes, and the expectation that Black women will mother at work and in community whether or not they have children Vetting partners while dating, plus a script for telling mom and the aunties What to weigh if you're still deciding, starting with your gut response and moving into the support you can count on About the Podcast The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/ Connect with Dr. Joy on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hellodrjoy. Where to Find Our Guest Website: https://www.inclusivetherapywellness.com/lana Stay Connected​https://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Hey y'all, it's Dr. Joy, and I'm so glad you're spending some time with us today. You're listening to session 483 of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Now, if you've ever been at a family cookout and somebody asks, "When are you going to give them some grandbabies?" Ooh, this one is for you. Dr. Lana Holmes is back with us to talk about being child-free by choice, and y'all, she did not hold back. We'll get right into it after a quick word from our sponsors.

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• 3:48Speaker 00

  Let me ask you something. How many times have you told somebody you might not want kids, and they hit you with, "Oh, you'll change your mind"? Or my personal favorite, "Well, who's going to take care of you when you get older?" More of us are saying it anyway. According to Pew Research, 47% of adults under 50 without kids say they're unlikely to ever have them, up 10 points from 2018. Dr. Lana Holmes is back with us today. She's a licensed clinical psychologist at the Center for Inclusive Therapy and Wellness, and she's child-free herself. Dr. Lana breaks down why this choice makes some folks so uncomfortable, and why being child-free and being childless are two different things.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  She also has a script for when it's time to tell mom and the aunties, plus some honest questions to sit with if you're still deciding. And she said something I can't stop thinking about: Kids know whether or not you want them. After you listen, come find us. Hop in our comments on Instagram and tell us what resonated for you. And you know, we're always on threads, so leave us a message there as well. You can also keep the conversation going in our Patreon community at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. Press play and let's get into it.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for joining us again, Dr. Lana.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  It's my pleasure. Third time's the charm, from what I hear.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Indeed, indeed. We've had such great conversations, and I feel like I've been talking about like so many different things, which I love. I think also just shows your range as a clinician, and like how you can be interested in lots of different things. And so the conversation today is around being child-free by choice. And so I'm curious, as someone who is both a clinician and child-free, what was your interest in wanting to talk more about this?

• 5:39Speaker 05

  Actually, it comes from my own personal experience. So I want to say it was around my twenties, when I was still in graduate school, that I realized I wanted to be child-free. And when I started articulating that, I was immediately met with, I mean, everything from people being like, "Are you sure?" Or like, "You would be the perfect kind of person, like with your education and your intelligence, to have a child," or "You'll change your mind." And then there are also some folks I met who really wanted to have kids, and who almost seemed offended by me articulating that I wanted to be child-free, even though I never expressed any kind of antagonism or vilification for having children. It was

• 6:22Speaker 05

  just like, you know, I just don't think that this is my calling, basically.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And as a psychologist, you know, I'm very interested, and are you. Like, the response to that, right? Like, how your personal choice then becomes like an affront to other people, right? And you are not the only person who has expressed that, right? Like, so many women have talked about that. But why do you think that becomes such like a personal attack for people when you say that you don't want to have children?

• 6:49Speaker 05

  I think there are several different dimensions of it. So one is, I think, some people, for reasons that I'm not entirely clear on, make the assumption that if you are saying that you want to be child-free, that you must hate children, or that you must hate the people who want to have children, which hatred of children has nothing to do with being child-free. It's simply saying, like, "I am voluntarily making the choice to not have children and to redirect my energy and time into other resources and places." But I think also, there's like the general system of repression that is cis hetero patriarchy, which deems that if you are a woman, assigned female at birth, or femme, your primary purpose

• 7:32Speaker 05

  in life is to bear and have children, and therefore you are violating this fundamental idea of what you should be doing if you say you don't want to do that. And I think particularly for Black women, AFABs and femmes, there's not only cis hetero patriarchy that we have to contend with, but also misogynoir. So if we look at the legacy of chattel slavery, Black women and femmes were forced to procreate and to take care of their own and other children. And that legacy continued down into Jim Crow, when Black women and femmes who worked as domestic workers were also, again, put in the position of being caretakers and taking

• 8:15Speaker 05

  care of children. And so I think there's a combination of repression and social conditioning that leads people to think, if you are a woman and femme in general, but especially if you're a Black woman and femme, you have to be doing this. And there's the additional component where- For a series of circumstances beyond our control, Black women and femmes have been the backbone of the Black community. We've been the ones taking care of everyone. And so I think it's almost become this given of like, oh, well, of course, you're just going to be raising and taking care of children and taking care of people in multiple capacities.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it does feel like it is tied to this like strong Black woman archetype, right? That we often see in literature and just kind of pervasive throughout the community that that is the thing that you must want to do as a Black woman.

• 9:04Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. Absolutely. I think it's assumed that Black women can and should take care of everybody but themselves and take care and bear all sorts of responsibilities, not realizing that we are human. And meaning by that is that every human being has a limit in terms of how much workload they can take on, how much stress they can take on. And so I think this archetype or stereotype of the strong Black woman does us disservice because it can be dehumanizing in a way where people don't realize like, oh, well, maybe this is too much for you, or maybe you need a little bit more balance or support in your life as opposed to just assuming that you can take care of an unlimited amount of

• 9:47Speaker 05

  things on your own without any assistance.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  You know, Dr. Lana, I mean, if I think about like women in my own family, I'm sure there may be women in your family and just kind of culturally, it feels like there have always been women, like women who have like chosen not to have children for one reason or another. It does feel like we are at an interesting point now, though, where people are feeling okay to say it, right? Like, I think historically, it's just something that maybe you didn't talk about, or people were seen as a spinster, or whatever, like, kind of, you know, title we gave people.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  Crazy Cat Lady.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  The Crazy Cat Lady. It's like, all these stereotypes, right? But it does feel like it is something that women are feeling more comfortable to actually like proclaim for themselves and to like, be okay with it. What do you think has led to us kind of getting to this place in the, in the culture?

• 10:37Speaker 05

  Again, I think there are several variables. I think part of it is a lot of introspection and self-awareness among a number of Black women and femmes realizing like, do you really want this? And then what are the pros and cons personally for having a child versus not? Also, I think the greater opportunities that we have now, frankly, like in the later generations or more recent generations of Black women and femmes, all of these hard fought freedoms, which even though I know they're under attack, we've been able to say like, oh, I do have a choice. It isn't just a matter of like, this is the only option I have. But I think as more people speak up, there have been more communities forming around Black women and femmes

• 11:19Speaker 05

  making the choice to be child free. And then also, I think more people run the distinction between being child free, which is making the choice not to have children versus being childless. Because when we think of those historical examples, either in our families or communities, there is that distinction between folks who are childless, where they want to have children, but for whatever reason can't versus those who are saying, no, I'm actually making a conscientious decision and taking all the necessary steps to prevent myself from having a child.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  And you're right. I think that that is such an important distinction. Can you talk about like, what happens when we collapse those two, right? Because those are two very different trajectories. So what happens when we collapse that? How is that harmful?

• 11:59Speaker 05

  Well, I think it can lead to a lot of misunderstandings, but also it can lead to a lot of hurt for folks. So particularly just hearing the commentary from people who are childless, there can be a lot of grief from making multiple efforts to try to conceive and bear children and it just not happening. Not only grief of the children that you wish you had, but for whatever reason can't, but also grief when it comes to the life you envisioned that included having children. And so if someone comes up to you and says like, oh, you're child free, it discounts all of that, right? It just makes it seem like, oh, you just never wanted children. It's like, no, like, I wanted it. And

• 12:42Speaker 05

  for whatever reason, biologically or otherwise, like, it's not happening. And that feels like it's such a huge loss in my life. On the other hand, if you were to approach somebody who's child free and saying like, oh, you're childless, it almost ignores the fact that you have any agency where it's like, oh, well, it's just because there were circumstances beyond your control instead of saying like, you made a conscientious decision. And so it can come across as a little bit stigmatizing, almost because I think while there's stigma that both being childless and child free carries, I think there still is slightly more acceptance of if you still want to have children, but are

• 13:25Speaker 05

  preempted from that happening versus if you're saying, no, I do not want children.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I know the answer, we were just having another recording and it feels like the answer is always racism, right? You've already talked about.

• 13:39Speaker 05

  That should be a sticker. The answer is always racism.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  The answer is always racism. And you've already talked about, you know, like how cis hetero patriarchy like expects that this is what women are. But it feels like such a big conversation and it's still, I think, feels so striking to me that there is so much energy around like what people do in their own lives and like how that then becomes an indictment on what you are doing in your life, right? Like, there is still all of this stigma. Can you talk more about like, some of the stigma, maybe that you haven't talked about already, related to being child free?

• 14:13Speaker 05

  Some of the stigma, I'm just thinking about like, multiple examples is not only the like, you must hate children and those people who decide to have children, but like, it must be a 24 hour, seven day out of the week, 365 days out of your party at your house. You must be some lewd and licentious hard-lit some Jezebel, who, you know, was running a brothel inside your house, even though my question is like, what's wrong with that? But also, there's this idea that like, oh, you have no morals, or that I've also heard people saying like, you're forsaking responsibility, which is actually the opposite, which it would be more irresponsible if you had children without any desire or plan or preparation than to say like, no, actually, I don't

• 14:57Speaker 05

  think this would be a good situation to bring a child into, therefore, I'm going to bar that from happening. The idea that you're some sour, mean ogre of a lady who just was just miserable and therefore that's why you're not going to have children, that you can't get a man, which again, presumes that you're only interested in one gender. That's why you can't have a child. But I think also some things that are not necessarily a stigma related to character or assuming who you are as a person, but these ideas about your life, like, oh, well, if you don't have kids, who's going to take care of you? I've literally had somebody tell me like, having children would make your life so

• 15:40Speaker 05

  much richer. And I was like, but you're making an assumption that like, that it doesn't even compute. You're like, making this whole story for my life. So yeah, I think those are some of the main things that come to mind in terms of stigmatization.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. More from our conversation after the break.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert, Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeartRadio

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• 19:40Speaker 00

  You know, we were having a conversation recently in our Patreon community about this idea that like so many of us for so many years are taught like, go to school, like this is the key to success. This is your only priority. But then at some point, probably after graduation, when we have gotten all these degrees, your family starts talking about, okay, but now like where's your partner? Where are these kids? And, and there aren't ever really any skills necessarily. Like if our focus was supposed to be school, like when were we learning? Like how to be in a relationship and what it looks like to be a caregiver and those kinds of things? And I'm curious, like, when in your life did those conversations about kids start happening? And maybe what have you heard kind of in your clinical work around?

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Like, how soon are people having these expectations of women to be having kids?

• 20:27Speaker 05

  I mean, if I'm going to be a hundred percent honest, like the idea of you may likely have children started when I was a kid of people just being like, oh, when you become an adult and thinking, like along with the conversations of like, what are you going to do when you grow up? Was, oh, well, like, when do you think you're going to get married? What kind of partner do you think you'll have? Like, how many kids do you think you'll have when you become an adult? So really, those conversations for me started early. And I mean, when I think about a lot of the patients I have in my clinical work, it's not too dissimilar, like either childhood adolescence, maybe for some people around their early twenties where there was those conversations.

• 21:08Speaker 05

  But really, I see it as an evolution where like it's the seed that's planted when you're a kid that like, oh, this is just what you do as someone who is a female or assigned female at birth, and we're preparing you for this future. And then as you get older, it continues to be revisited as a conversation of like, okay, you know, like so continuing to think about your life in the head. Like, what is that gonna be like? How is that gonna happen? And I can never remember for myself or talking to any of my patients where alternatives were presented. Like, it was always kind of woven into go to school,

• 21:51Speaker 05

  make sure that you're financially stable, make sure that you have steady housing. And also like, when you're going to get married and have kids? Like, all of it was bundled together as like a part of that conversation. So I can never remember a time for me or my patients where it was never brought up in conversation. And usually it starts to flip, you know, when you say like, I don't think I'm going to have kids. Then there's this like idea of almost a pressuring where it's like, come on, like, really, are you sure? Like, yeah, maybe like in the next few years, like after things calm down with work and da, da, da, like you will do that. Yeah, but in terms of like the other part of your question of like,

• 22:36Speaker 05

  when are we supposed to have time for dating and getting to socialize? I think that, that it's never at least for me or when I think about any of my patients been like an either or proposition where it's been like, oh, either you pursue your education and get a career, or you focus on like the social and romantic aspects of your life. Like, I think I've seen plenty of people actually who are child free, who are in relationships, but they just are realizing like, oh, there are other ways for me to deeply connect to people and contribute to the lives of others that does not involve being a parent. And so, you know, I don't think that's a matter of like a lack of socializing

• 23:19Speaker 05

  or having romantic or sexual partnerships. I usually think it's more a matter of realistically thinking about all the stressors and pressures that are in one's life, but also knowing that if you simply don't want to do it, that that's good enough as well.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, because it does feel like there is the assumption that like everybody feels called at some point to have this, like this maternal gene or, you know, like that is the, the idea that like everybody has that and we know enough about like biology and science to know that we are all very different. And so that just simply may not exist for a lot of people.

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. Because I think, again, this assumption is that if you are a woman or a femme, that like it just naturally will spring from you. And I think there can be a lot of confusion, shame, guilt, or questioning if you realize that that's not in you, because we don't really have a lot of those alternative examples in our society. So there can be this like, well, what's wrong with me if I don't have that sense of, you know, anticipation or glee or joy at the prospect of that? And I think it's important to know that like when we think about all the ways we divide and categorize people, there aren't these like inborn things like,

• 24:36Speaker 05

  oh, she has this maternal instinct or, oh, he has this primal aggression or any of those kinds of things. I think people are people. And I think one of the things that being child free invites us to do is consider the individuality, autonomy, and agency of human beings. So instead of having these preconceived notions of, well, based on your gender, sexual orientation, race, you are destined to be this and do this. And there's, it's natural and there's no other way to say like, no. Actually, as individual human beings, even though, yes, we are all shaped by history,

• 25:16Speaker 05

  culture, society, et cetera, you still have the opportunity to draw the course of your own life.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  And I feel like Dr. Lana, what you're outlining is something that feels very threatening, right? Like just in even the larger conversations around like DEI and like banning books and like just this idea of like autonomy and agency, I think a lot of people find very threatening. Right? And so I think that that is why, at least a part of why there's still some, so much stigma related to this conversation.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  Yes, which practically speaking, I mean, again, the answer is always racism and cetera patriarchy and all the other things. But if we really break it down on a practical level, what truly is threatening about someone opting out of something or somebody taking a different path? If there isn't anything inherently unethical, evil, or unlawful about it? And I know, you know, laws aren't always reflective of what is good and humane, but like laws within reason, like what is bad about it? That's the thing that I look at it. When I see people have this reaction of being threatened or feeling bad, it's like, well, how is this somehow invalidating your decisions?

• 26:29Speaker 05

  It's not. You still have the freedom like to make your own decisions too, even if they're different from mine. And I don't know, for whatever reason, we as human beings have a tendency to want to attack and criticize and control people, things, or experiences we don't understand. And I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it, even as a licensed clinical psychologist of why would you not only have that reaction, but why would you take extra pains to harm someone or infringe upon their rights? Because it makes you feel uncomfortable. It still doesn't make sense to me because practically speaking, there isn't anything harmful in someone being child free.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  It isn't infringing upon the ability for people to conceive children and have children. It isn't damaging the human population. And even though there are some people, we can get into conversations and statistics that we don't have time for about, you know, fertility rates around the world and what's dropping and rising in different countries. But it's like, the human race is not a threat of going extinct. Do you know what I mean? We're not at that level. So there isn't anything that I can point to or that anyone has ever said that would justify why there would be this kind of panicked reaction when someone says that they're going to not have children.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Earlier, you brought up one of the main arguments that people hear when they talk about being child free is like, who's going to take care of you when you're older? Can you talk about like why that is a flawed idea? And like where some of that comes from?

• 28:07Speaker 05

  I mean, there's this thing called estrangement and people also not really looking after people, even if they're blood related. I mean, those are realities, I think. So many of us personally and professionally can think of examples of people who they might by number have a lot of people in their lives. But if you ask them like, who could you go to an emergency or crisis? Who could you go to and rely on when you really needed someone? There'd be people will, I know it might be these folks, but not these folks, you know? So there isn't a guarantee, just because you have a child, that that child is then going to have a positive, healthy relationship with you for the duration of your life.

• 28:48Speaker 05

  And that they would have the responsibility or the care to take care of you. Right? And if we think more broadly about what it means to have a social support network that's reciprocal, healthy and long lasting, it isn't just related to the people that we are connected to by blood. It can be connected to other folks, friends, partners, colleagues, community members that can come and support each other. And I think as we're looking at older adults at this point in time, there are a lot of people who are finding creative ways to live independently, but also to be able to stay connected to others that can help them that aren't just their children. So, you know, I don't think that

• 29:32Speaker 05

  it's this all or nothing proposition that either you have children and you have this guaranteed bedrock of someone who's going to take care of you, or you don't have children and you're going to die alone in your home, you know?

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So what does this look like maybe in conversations, kind of clinically, you know, when people come to you and say like, hey, I actually don't know that I want to have kids. Like, what are some of the kind of common anxieties or struggles that people may be experiencing there?

• 30:00Speaker 05

  Usually there's a lot of stress and frustration around those decisions not being respected of like, why can't people just leave me alone? Why can't people also just celebrate the other parts of my life? Because usually it is almost framed as like a, yes, you're intelligent. Yes, you're well accomplished and you're doing all these amazing things, but like this. And so they're like, why is it that my education or how I'm contributing to my community or my family or my friends is seen as like second place because I have not yet risen to the level of having a child or being married. And so there can be that, but also there can be conversations about like, how do I break this news to family

• 30:45Speaker 05

  members or friends or maybe even a partner? Because sometimes that can happen where somebody enters a relationship and there might be a partner who either is ambivalent to, open to, or has their heart set on having children. And if, you know, a person that I'm seeing is like, I really don't, but and I'm scared because what if this means the end of our relationship? Or what if this means when it comes to family and friends that those relationships will become weaker because they will think less of me, or they won't like me as much because I'm not going to be having children?

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Can you say more about that? Like, what does this mean in terms of like the landscape of dating? Especially if you are like, I think it's one thing if you decide this already in a partnership and maybe that's a difficult conversation you have to have with your partner, but it also feels like it could be difficult even as somebody who's not in a relationship yet, but interested in dating?

• 31:41Speaker 05

  Honestly, it can be hard. It's not impossible. But definitely, I would say it takes an extra level of vetting, right? Where you have to be sure when you're dating someone, and especially if you think that it's going to get serious of, hey, this is where I stand when it comes to envision my life, you know, just like all the other things, like what are your career prospects? What are your financial prospects? What do you think about when you're thinking about the future? That's going to include whether or not you want to have kids. And so I think it takes a lot of intentional conversation and soul searching for yourself, but also making sure that you and the other person are being honest with each other about is for real, for real, like, will your life

• 32:25Speaker 05

  be just as good without kids versus with it? And it's like, are you being honest about how you feel about kids just because you want to be with me? Or are you being disingenuous because you really like me, but there still is this like feeling that you have about wanting to have kids? I mean, also, I've heard stories of women and femmes who as soon as they mentioned, like, yeah, I don't want to have kids, that that almost automatically breaks off, you know, the dating experience or breaks off the relationship. So it can be topsy-turvy, but at the same time, there are plenty of people out there that have found a partner or partners who intentionally don't want to have kids and they're in agreement

• 33:09Speaker 05

  about that and they stick with it and they don't change their mind. So I would say dating is hard, no matter what. I've yet to come across anybody I'm interested in hearing that like has smooth sailing with dating, but I think it just is a matter of being very clear and honest in communicating your decisions with people. And if somebody doesn't respect that or want something different, just being able to amicably part ways and keep looking.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. I would love to hear any tips or scripts you have for people who are like have made this decision of being child free, but do feel like they need to like tell mom and grandma and auntie then like, hey, this is something that I've decided. Like, what does that look like? Any tips there for people who are interested in having that conversation?

• 33:56Speaker 05

  I think the top tips is just be prepared with like whatever your personal statement is, which usually is some variation of like, hey, ex, like, I realize like I don't want to have children, but I'm still going to be here doing all of the wonderful things I want to do with my life and all the wonderful ways that I can help people. And if there's pushback against that, I think it's important to just, you know, if people come back with like things like, oh, well, aren't you going to be lonely? Aren't you going to be unfulfilled of being able to name the ways in which like you are fulfilled and that you're not lonely? But ultimately, the side that I always come on whenever people are preparing for this

• 34:41Speaker 05

  is it is your decision. So at a certain point, if people just continue to like ask questions or they try to convince or coerce you into changing your mind of just, you really have to almost be like a broken record and just say like, this is my decision and I really need you to respect it.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And can you say more about like the relationship to like agency that it feels like this conversation really is forged? Because in some ways, this feels like the work of clinical dreams, right? Like the idea that you could work with somebody on really claiming this for themselves and, you know, taking up space in that way. But what does this say about agency, especially as it's related to Black women?

• 35:22Speaker 05

  The first phrase that comes to mind is that the bodies of Black women and femmes have always been under attack. Like, we've never been able to have full peace or full control over our bodies, whether you want to look at it from a socio-political standpoint or otherwise. So I think Black women and femmes saying, I do not want to have children is almost like this radical act. It shouldn't be. I mean, I just see it as being a choice. But I think, given all of the things we've discussed, it unfortunately is seen as a radical act to be able to say like, I have control over my body. My body doesn't belong

• 36:06Speaker 05

  to the government. My body doesn't belong to any particular political affiliation or belief. But also, my body is not this thing to be controlled by my own community. And I think that's the part that sometimes is not spoken. But I think there's so many expectations that even other people in the Black community can put on the bodies of Black women and femmes about how our bodies should uphold certain standards, how our bodies should uphold certain expectations. That to say like, I get to choose what my body does or does not do, you know, can cause a lot of tension. And so I think being able to say,

• 36:48Speaker 05

  I get to make this life-changing choice about what happens with my body, even if people don't like it, even if people think that it violates certain ideas of what I should be doing, is reclaiming control and power for ourselves. Because having a child dramatically changes your life.

• 37:11Speaker 05

  It changes your finances. It changes your physiological functioning. It changes what you can and cannot do in your day to day life. And so I think that there is a lot of weight to that decision and a lot of power to that decision that requires agency.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  Dr. Lon, I wonder if we could expand the conversation around being child free to also include this expectation that like Black women will also mother in some other way, right? So whether that be like, oh, I'm the supervisor at work and I have this expectation to kind of like take care of people in the office, or just in lots of different ways. I think it is connected to this, this idea that like, that there are expectations put upon Black women, Black femmes to kind of be caregivers and caretakers, right? That feels like an extension of this conversation. Can you talk about that?

• 38:03Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. One of the things that immediately was coming to my mind as we were talking is like, we were previously talking about the strong Black woman trope. But another trope and stereotype is the mammy, which again, has its origins in the transatlantic domestic slave trade of this idea of Black women and femmes being these motherly figures that, you know, extend themselves, like delight themselves in extending themselves and their bodies and their care and their love for everybody else, even if they're neglected and ignored, even if they are basically pushed into that position. And I think just basically

• 38:44Speaker 05

  like, we are under no obligation, frankly, to have to take care of other people if we don't want to. I think if any of us are in a position where it's like, yes, I voluntarily and with complete and conformed consent want to take care of others, absolutely. But if we don't want any part of that, that's perfectly valid and fine, you know? If there are plenty of people, when I think of all the different stories that I've heard about Black women and femmes deciding to be child free, of them saying like, yeah, I want to be able to redirect my energy and time and resources to myself. I want to pick and choose who I pour my energy into instead of it's being something that I have no will behind.

• 39:29Speaker 05

  It's just something that everybody has positioned me to do. So, yeah, I think it's perfectly valid because that is something that will come up and it's like, well, you know, if you don't have kids, then that means you should have all this extra time that we are all deciding that you were going to devote to being a caretaker in other ways. And again, it's like, that isn't necessary and that's not something that anybody should do unless they want to.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argentix. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune

• 40:40Speaker 00

  in to find out. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 40:48Speaker 06

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel. That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. To find your creativity and to believe in yourself, because somewhere in the midst of it, I stopped believing that my voice mattered and that I could find it again. That's a challenge.

• 41:25Speaker 06

  I was not feeling very confident creatively, only, again, defiant in my belief that what this is about is express something honest. Say something honest. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jason Tipp from Hoops Tonight with Jason Tipp. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality

• 42:10Speaker 06

  and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 42:23Speaker 00

  Host Nora McInerney is back for an all new season of The Head Start, embracing the journey brought to you in partnership with AbbVie. In each episode, Nora has honest conversations with real people living with chronic migraine, people who are figuring out how to adapt, advocate, and stay connected to the things that bring them joy. This season, she's revisiting familiar voices and introducing new ones who will share their stories about what it means to live with this condition. From the missed moments to the strategies that help them keep going when things feel uncertain. As always, she'll be joined by headache specialist Dr. Christopher Rhine, who offers insight into these challenges and the questions many of us have. If you're new to the podcast, check out the three previous seasons, each one offering

• 43:06Speaker 00

  a different perspective on this condition and the theme of resilience displayed while navigating it. So don't miss season four of The Head Start, Embracing the Journey. Listen on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  You know, you've mentioned like some of these ideas about that people have about what it means to be child free, that you should have all this time to kind of just do all these things. And it's making me think like, how do we typically see the Black woman who chooses to be child free portrayed in media? Like, have you seen instances where you feel like, like a good job has been done? And maybe like some of the stereotypes that we see when we see this portrayed?

• 43:49Speaker 05

  Oof, I'm trying to think. I'm trying to go through like every single frame of television and film that I can think of. And I think usually, I don't really see a conscientious portrayal of being child free, or like, that's not something that's explicitly stated in the storyline. I still think there's this divide of like, the female or AFAB character who is single and looking, and then her making the transition to being partnered and living happily ever after. Like, those are the typical things I'm seeing portrayed in media. So

• 44:31Speaker 05

  I still think there's a lot of like, underrepresentation of being child free and a lack of like, explicit narrative around that. And so I would say in general, there's still something left to be desired when it comes to that in media.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Hmm. So to be stereotyped in of like, all the time you have and all the, the things that you must be doing, like, oh, there's so much free time and things that you have. What would you say to people about that?

• 45:00Speaker 05

  No, just, just no. When I think about myself and I think about so many of the other people in my personal life or professional life who are child free, like, we're still busy. We're still busy with our careers. We're still busy when it comes to devoting time and energy to interests or pursuits and other areas of our lives. Also, like, we're still busy in terms of taking care of other folks, whether that be a partner or partners, whether that be other relatives, whether that be friends, or whether that be causes or issues that we're passionate about. So, again, I think it is very inaccurate to assume like, if kids aren't filling up your space and time, that you just must be

• 45:42Speaker 05

  twiddling your thumb. It's like, no, like, actually, there's a lot of other things that we're devoting our time and energy to that sometimes can tip the decision to not have kids, because having kids requires a lot of time and energy and support. And sometimes people may look at their lives and do an honest inventory and find like, there isn't space for that, to, to do it right, to be a parent in a good way.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Hmm. What are some of the things you feel like have you been able to do being child free? And, you know, I think, again, like you've already mentioned that there's always this argument that, oh, being a parent will make your life so much richer. But I think the other argument could also be made that being child free also allows your life to be rich in some ways. So what things do you feel like have opened up for you as a result of being child free?

• 46:27Speaker 05

  I think, writing a different characteristics, like, when it comes to decisions that I have and continue to make with my career, there's more freedom and opportunity there because I don't have to worry about like, well, what's going to work on my kid's schedule? Or who's going to be available to take care of a child with this kind of work setup? Also, in my free time, it's allowed me to do the things that really fill me up and that give me a sense of being a human being and that life is worth living. Cause a lot that, you know, having a child can take away a lot of that, you know? But also, I think in times when I have not felt well, when I've been sick, or when I just have been going

• 47:09Speaker 05

  through something, there hasn't been that added worry or stress of like, I have to somehow suppress this or get this together to be able to be present for a kid, or how am I going to be able to get someone to help take care of me and me also be present and take care of a child at the same time? So some of those stressors and worries aren't present because of that. But also, when it comes to being there for other people in my life that, you know, are also adults, that has opened up more time for that. Because I think one of the things that often people think about when they want to have children is like, oh, well, we're making life better or improving the world by having a child.

• 47:52Speaker 05

  But I always like to think of it in a different way of, there are so many good people in this world that don't have support. And that, one of the things I've found fulfilling as a child free person is being there for friends, for example, who may not have family or other people that are there for them. And we get to be family to each other.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  So I wonder, Dr. Lana, like, what does this look like? Because I would imagine there are people who are enjoying our conversation who are thinking like, oh, is this something like, maybe they are still on the line of like deciding like, do I want kids? Do I not? Because to your point, like, I think so many of us have just been raised to think at some point, like, this will be my reality, right? But I think there is, there are more people who are questioning that decision. So what kinds of things should people be taking into consideration around whether being childfree by choice is something they are interested in?

• 48:45Speaker 05

  The first thing I would say is like, look into your own heart and soul. And like, when you think about having children, what comes up immediately without censoring yourself? Or without thinking about what other people would want you to say? And then use that as like, the starting point, because there are other things we can get into. But I would say,

• 49:06Speaker 05

  if you really don't want to have kids, you shouldn't force yourself to, because, spoiler, kids know whether or not you want them. Just want to say that, because there are some people who think like, oh, well, I'm gonna hide this bitterness or this resentment that I have, or this regret that I have. And they won't be none the wiser. And trust me, I've come across plenty of adults who talk about how they knew their parents did not want to have them around, and the harm that that did to them. So especially in the context, when I think about those I've worked with and trauma, like, the harm that that has done. So that's the first thing, but also thinking about like, what are the practical day in,

• 49:48Speaker 05

  day out realities that would need to be in place to effectively raise a child or children? Because it not only takes things like steady income, stable housing, but also things like a support system. Because I know plenty of people who have children that do not have the added support to help take care of the kids. So it's the situation where it's like, all these family and friends are like, yeah, we want you to have kids, and we're so enthusiastic about it. But when it's like, okay, could you help us with childcare? Could you come in and like, help with these things with the kid? Nobody answers. Or it's a once in a while thing. So like, it's important to do, like, do you have that kind of support?

• 50:29Speaker 05

  Also, if it was a situation where you recognize that you and/or your partner or partners would need to maybe reduce your work hours, quit your job and be a full-time parent, is that something that you or your partner or partners would be willing to do? Or would that be something where you're like, no, I really love my job. That has to be a constant in my life? So I would say, looking at all those different avenues of like, what it would take to effectively raise a child and see if they're present in your life, or if you could make them be present. And if not, then I would say, it's important to consider that maybe it would be better not to have a child.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  You know, Dr. Lana, I know as we were kind of prepping for this conversation, something that was really important for you to talk about was the idea that, you know, the world isn't really set up to really support people having children, right? And like, what does it even look like to find community to do to have this major undertaking? And you already outlined like, some of the things and some of the supports that are needed. But can you talk more about like, just the support that doesn't exist? And why maybe many people are actually making the choice to be childfree?

• 51:40Speaker 05

  So just looking at the United States of Lone, we do not have comprehensive, reliable, affordable childcare, which is essential, especially if you're working. Also, particularly for a number of Black women and those assigned female at birth, the mortality rates during the perinatal period are staggering. And we know this to be true even for high-income, well-educated Black women and femmes, that they still have these really poor outcomes when it comes to perinatal healthcare. And access to healthcare itself is like, an issue. So, and also the financial component as well of not only going through the process

• 52:19Speaker 05

  of getting pregnant, having the baby, but also being able to raise and nourish and enrich and take care of a child. And so, but also, I think if we're going to be real, another thing that I've heard come up a lot from Black women and femmes is,

• 52:37Speaker 05

  what if I have a child and they're killed? You know, or looking at the attack on civil rights, reproductive rights, where it's like, do I really want to bring a child into the world where they're going to be less safe?

• 52:57Speaker 05

  And so, all of these things, I think, the sense of danger, the lack of support, the lack of resources can make people second guess whether or not they really would like to have a child.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  All very valid reasons. Yeah. Dr. Lana, do you think that there is a way that childfree men are looked at differently in society than women who choose to be childfree?

• 53:22Speaker 05

  It's interesting, because I almost feel, I've been thinking about that a lot. Like, I've heard a little bit more from men who are childless, talking about the disappointment of not being able to have children. And, but I haven't really heard as much from childfree men. So I wouldn't be able to speak to them directly. But I think one of the things that I am aware of, and I do know, is that men have had more freedom in terms of their reproductive choices. So if a man wanted to be a bachelor for the rest of his life, or a masculine identifying person wanted to just date around and not have any kids, it's not really a point of conversation. There can be some exceptions, depending on certain cultural variables.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  Like, if there's this idea of like, you need to carry on the family lineage, and it's expected that that's done through the male or masculine identifying person in the family, that there might be more conversation and pressure. But in an individualistic, Western, industrialized country like the United States, I think there has been this history of men having more choice and people not only respecting it, but also not really even thinking about whether or not they want to have children.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah. If you could change one thing about how Black communities talk about childfree women, what would it be?

• 54:46Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 54:49Speaker 05

  This idea that like, we're letting people down somehow? I think that would be nice, or that it somehow should be this personal decision has communal implications. That everybody has the right to say something about it, rather than it being a personal choice.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Is there anything that we haven't talked about today that you feel like is really important, a really important part of this conversation?

• 55:16Speaker 05

  I think one thing that came up is, I was, I think, initially imposing this topic and then discussing this idea of like, not having a child as a Black woman or femme, somehow being an act of betrayal against our community, or letting our community down. And I was thinking about, well, where did that come from? And I think there's been so much death and loss and estrangement in our communities. I think that this idea of having children has sometimes been seen as a way to counteract that. But I think it's important to know that having children is not the only way

• 55:57Speaker 05

  to mitigate the death or the loss or the estrangement in our communities. Like, there are direct ways that we can provide support and care that do not have to do with childbirth or childrearing.

• 56:10Speaker 00

  Thank you for it. And that does feel like an important part to make sure we highlight. So where can we stay connected with you, Dr. Lana? What's your website, as well as any social media channels you like to share?

• 56:22Speaker 05

  All right, so I am at the Center for Inclusive Therapy and Wellness. So if you go to inclusivetherapywellness.com and search for my name, you will find me there. Also, I have a LinkedIn page, but I stay away from the other socials.

• 56:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, and then I am on various directory profiles, including I am on Therapy for Black Girls Directory, if anybody would be interested in working with me.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  Perfect, we'll be sure to include all of that in our show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us again today.

• 56:51Speaker 05

  Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  I want to give a big thank you to Dr. Lana Holmes for this wonderful conversation. To learn more about her and her work, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session483. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have ideas about things you'd like us to cover, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Threads, @therapyforblackgirls.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  And you can also join us over in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

• 58:10Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  This is Jonas Knox from Two Pros and a Cup of Joe. Buy Smart Drive for Less and Trade for More, that's Toyota Ford Ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks. Combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. What's that? My fresh detector. Uh, your what? There it is. What is it detecting?

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  Fresh produce, fresh meat. Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

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  Apparently, we celebrate. At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices.

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  When your fresh detector is going off, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com. Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.