Session 477: Surviving Middle School: The Chaos of Adolescence, Explained

Middle school changes kids in ways that can feel unrecognizable. Dr. Russell Ledet, child and adolescent psychiatrist and father of two Black girls, joins Dr. Joy to explain why. They walk through the psychological stages driving adolescence, industry versus inferiority giving way to identity versus role confusion. They talk through what's actually happening in the brain as the amygdala and prefrontal cortex develop on different timelines, a combination Dr. Ledet argues isn't cruel so much as an opening for parents to grow alongside their kids. Dr. Ledet talks through how friendships form in middle school and what anxiety can look like when it doesn't announce itself. He offers real-time guidance for common flashpoints, a first physical or verbal fight and a first heartbreak, along with how to tell the difference between normal adolescent worry and something that needs more support. He closes on the one thing he thinks most parents get wrong about middle schoolers. They assume kids aren't thinking things through, when really they are thinking about everything at once and mostly need to be heard. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/ Where to Find Our Guest Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drrussellledet/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/rjledet Website https://www.russellledet.com/ Stay Connected​https://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  Hey y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 477 of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. You're listening to part two of our series Surviving Middle School. And today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Russell Lade to talk about surviving the middle school years. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.

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• 2:37Speaker 00

  If you've ever been to a middle school orientation, you may remember the moment where they tell you your child is about to become someone you don't recognize. I know because I sat in that room very recently as the mom of a seventh grader. I spent the better part of this year watching a kid I thought I knew turn into someone I'm getting to know all over again. So I called Dr. Russell Ledet. Child and adolescent psychiatrist and father of two black girls of his own, a man who grew up reading library castoffs on a blue plastic chair he called his rocket ship. We get into the science behind why a middle schooler can seem to lose their mind overnight. The mismatch between a brain still learning to regulate emotion and a decision-making center that won't fully mature

• 3:19Speaker 00

  for years. We talk about friendship and how it stops being automatic. We talk about anxiety that doesn't always announce itself, that shows up instead of a stomach ache or a slam door. And we get into the moments parents actually live in. The first fight, the first heartbreak, how to stay steady when your kid is falling apart in front of you. In this episode, Dr. Lade visits the idea that these kids are thinking all the time about everything, and that our job as parents is learning how to listen. Press play and let's get into it.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Dr. Lade, thank you so much for joining us today.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  You're welcome. I'm excited to be here. Big fan of the podcast as well as just what y'all do. So I'm always appreciative. I'm raising two black girls, so this is really important to me.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  And listen, I'm raising two black boys, so we are in the trenches together. I have been very excited to chat with you because I am the mom of a seventh grader and a fifth grader. So I am in the thick of all of these things. So personally, this episode is really for me.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  I got you. I got you taken care of. You ain't gotta worry about it. I promise.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  So when we did the orientation for my, my oldest's middle school, they talked about like these being the years where you will, your child will almost become unrecognizable, right? Like that there are so many changes and things that happen. And so I really want to get into all of that with you for sure today. But I want to take a little trip down memory lane. Who was Russell as a middle schooler?

• 4:48Speaker 03

  I was an inquisitive kid. I was poor. So I wondered about the world around me. The relativity that comes with being poor is a lack of exposure. And so with a lack of exposure, you wonder a lot. You dream a lot about things being different. I hoped a lot about my mom having more. My mom used to do this thing where she would take our rent money and put it under my grandmother's mattress. And then I kind of thought of it as like a hope seed because she was hoping that it would just like grow on its own. And then she would come back and count it a few days. And I was like, Mama, it's not gonna change a amount just because it's under the mattress. But so I think experiences

• 5:30Speaker 03

  like that forced me to hope and dream and wonder. And it left me inquisitive. I read a lot. My mom was a certified nurse's aide and we really couldn't afford books to like go and buy books. And so she worked at a senior living facility and she would like, because a lot of them had dementia, and she would just like grab books from them and just, they wouldn't remember. So she would bring them home and be like, here, you gonna read this. I don't even know what it's about, but you gonna read it. So I remember reading books about the tundra of Antarctica in comparison to the tundra of the Arctic Ocean and like the valleys of Nepal and the people of Kathmandu and the Seychelles Islands. Like

• 6:11Speaker 03

  I always read about like random stuff that's like, I don't know if middle school kids are supposed to be reading about it, but it was the only thing I had to read. And there was a blue plastic chair in front of our house and I used to just sit on it. And it was kind of like my imaginary rocket ship. I was just like taking and just go off, visit the Louvre, or go and sit down and chat with Mahatma Gandhi or whatever. It was just my way of just like exploring something different from what I was experiencing in my real life. Now, my mom was, she was cashing a $47 child support check at that time. So my way of escaping was to read. And I was never really worried. I had a special experience

• 6:53Speaker 03

  in my middle school years because peer pressure didn't really hit me because I was too poor.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  I was solution oriented, just trying to figure out like, what can I do to like change all of this? Like, because this sucks. Like me, like digging inductions behind Sam's Club. So I was like thinking about solutions. I didn't really have time to worry about like the frivolous thoughts of my classmates and stuff like that. So, yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Got it. Got it. So a lot of curiosity, it sounds like, really kind of shaped your adolescence in those middle school years. And so this term adolescence that is thrown around a lot when we talk about middle schoolers, what do we actually mean and what is happening for them in the period of adolescence?

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Oh man, what is not happening? So we think about it from an age perspective, you're probably thinking, I mean, these days probably skewed to like 11 and 12 up until like really 18, 19 years old. It's this big maturation period of so many different things. The earlier phase of adolescence and kind of like pre-adolescent adolescence is kind of like this gray zone overlap where you go from what we think of from a psychosocial standpoint as like industry versus inferiority. And I'll explain in a second to like identity versus role confucial, which is happening during those, those latter adolescence slash teenage years. Because sometimes the word adolescence like trips people up. So I just like to say teenage years.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  Is a lot of different things are happening. If you think about it from a neuroanatomy standpoint, the amygdala, which is this component of the brain that really has a lot to do with emotional control, is all over the place because it's kind of slowly fine tuning itself. And a lot of that also has to do with like the environment and what's being modeled for them and what has been modeled for them. And then at the same time, the prefrontal cortex is starting to mature, but it takes a very long time. And again, there are environmental factors that play a role. There are social factors that play a role. And then there's just like the neuroanatomical changes that happen over time. And then the psychological changes that happen over time, all happening at the exact same time while

• 9:02Speaker 03

  still puberty is happening too. So there's hormonal changes happening. So it's literally physiological and neurological and psychological chaos happening all at the same time. And I think sometimes when you place it that way, and you remind parents and caregivers that that's what's happening right now, they have a little bit more empathy. But without that reminder or education or knowledge, then it just doesn't make sense. So the way I like to think about it is by the time adolescence kicks in, that teenager that you were talking about, and you're like, I don't recognize them, they are asking the biggest question they will ever ask in their life is, who am I? Because before that, it was the industry versus inferiority stage where they were

• 9:47Speaker 03

  attaching themselves to like the thoughts of their parents, thoughts of their caregivers, thoughts of teachers, thoughts of these leadership figures in their life, right? And that's where a lot of their identity was adopted from. And then you go to this place where like you start to be introspective, but also you start to look at the perspectives of other people outside of your parents. And I like to think of it as like, for the first time, the game controller is in the hands of the human being, instead of in the hands of the parent or the caregiver or whoever. And the parents are very uneasy because they're like, what do you mean? I can't just control you like I did when you were nine, 10, 11. What do you mean you have your own opinion? What do you mean you you think different than me? Like, this is so strange. And we forget that we went through the exact same thing. And we questioned

• 10:32Speaker 03

  a lot of the stuff that we were told.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I want to back up because I think these stages that you outlined, industry versus inferiority and identity versus role confusion are really important and not talked about outside of like our jargon circles, right?

• 10:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  And so when you talk about industry versus inferiority, this is kind of like they are trying to figure out what versus what.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  If you think about industry versus inferiority, it's kind of like their way of trying to figure out what social skills do I have? What academic skills do I have? What physical skills do I have? And like, can I be confident in who I am as well as who's confident in me? So like, I actually posted about this yesterday, and I didn't mention it because I think sometimes it confuses people. I was talking about how like, people tend to say what's wrong with these kids, instead of asking like, what happened to these kids? Or what's right with these kids? And the reason why I posed those questions is because during the industry versus inferiority

• 11:35Speaker 03

  stage, the kids are asking like, how much confidence do the adults in my life have in me? Which is their way of translating into like, what am I capable of? What can I do? What can I not do? And then that becomes sort of like the foundation and the base for their transition into identity versus role confusion, which is like, are they confused about who they are? Are they starting to build who they are? Or do they have a pretty solidified idea of who they are? Because in this period, when they were starting to birth this idea, it was kind of floored it by a lot of criticism. Which is why we have to be careful about the way that we criticize children. Because like, their sensitivity to criticism is drastically different. We can have things that we

• 12:20Speaker 03

  say like, quote unquote, just roll off of our backs. We forget the power of our words, especially based on our role. You are essentially the leader in a lot of these struggle lives in like, every arena, whether it's psycho-social development, physiological development, physical development, social development, all these different things, like you are the leader. And that means that your words have a ton of power. So, you know, I always use this example of like, the word lazy. There's a lot of power in calling a kid lazy, because they don't know what to do with that. They kind of take it on as an identity. And especially during this period,

• 13:02Speaker 03

  when they're asking themselves like, what do the adults in my life think of me? If the comment is like, oh, you're lazy, or oh, you're bad, or you can these kinds of things, then when it's time for them to say like, who am I? Part of that basis will be these titles and identities that have been given to them. And unfortunately, it'll manifest in the frustrations that they'll have with their leaders in their own home. And so, yeah, I could talk about this all day.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's so many more things to talk about. But I do want to go back to this like, physiological hormonal kind of chaos that you outlined, because you know, it sounds like chaos even when you talk about it, right? Like, all of these things, the amygdala, you know, that is so emotional, but we also know, and I think you mentioned, that the prefrontal cortex is not developed, right? Which is responsible for like, logical thought and like, good decision making. So it really feels like a very cruel, like, physiological joke that they have so much going on, but then can't actually think fully through. So how do we support them in all of these changes? And how do parents support themselves? Because I think that's the most important thing, right? Like, how are we regulated enough to support the chaos happening in their lives?

• 14:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think this is an amazing question, Dr. Joy. Honestly, I got giddy when you said this, because I was like, I was like, yes, I was like, but actually, I don't think it's that cruel. I don't think it's that cruel. And the reason why I don't think it's that cruel is because I think it's like, it's an incredible time. I think that the largest amount of parental emotional regulation maturation will happen during that period. They will either, it's really not dichotomized, but I kind of think of it this way, that they will either say, I have to do something drastically

• 14:52Speaker 03

  different, or they'll bear down in the way that they already do things. And I love when the parents wake up and they're like, you know what? I gotta do something different. And I think that different thing is starting to understand that like, your child is not doing this on purpose. Because like, when the idea is that this is volitional, and the reason why they're doing this is because they hate me, or they hate themselves, or they don't like where they live, or this and that, then you start to project onto them these ideas of what their intention is. And that's not the case at all. That is not their intention. They have so many different

• 15:33Speaker 03

  things happening at the exact same time. And if parents were more aware that all of these things were happening at the same time, then their response wouldn't miss the forest for the trees. Because they go, oh, yeah, I know what stage of life this kid is in right now. In this moment, where like, they're spiraling, oh, yeah, I need to comfort them. I need to let them know like, oh, everything's okay. I know you're panicking about such and such saying something at school, or such and such don't like you, or this and that. I know, I know, I know, it's okay. Let's talk about it. Let's go get some ice cream. Let's go walk. Let's figure out how to give this thing a place, if it needs a place, if it needs a home, and it's something we gotta consistently talk about,

• 16:14Speaker 03

  then sure. But if it isn't, then guess what? Let's kick it out and then keep it moving. When that becomes the shape of how we think about it, then the stress level in general for the parents and caregivers is a little bit less. I think a lot of parents struggle with this area because they see this thing that's happening as rebellion, or as this thing that they potentially can't control, as opposed to this thing that they can start to have a deeper understanding for, and then gain tools for how to respond appropriately. Like, for instance, many people know my social

• 16:54Speaker 03

  media, I talk a lot about the unhealthiness of yelling. And I tell them, I'm like, too dysregulated people can't have a regulated moment. It's just like, it's not gonna happen, you know, it's like pissing on a fire with gasoline is essentially what you're doing. And not to mention, the thing that underlies that is the person you're dealing with has an amygdala that's very underdeveloped. Like, it's not where you would ideally want it to be to have like, a reasonable conversation, right? So amygdala activation and prefrontal cortex activation kind of sometimes tug and pull on each other. And you can think about it when people are really upset, they make irrational decisions, they make irrational statements. It doesn't come from a reasonable place. It comes

• 17:38Speaker 03

  from a very emotional place, right? And so, in those moments, it's probably not best to try to reason with that child. It's best to try to get them home, try to get them to a calmer state. And so I think parents who can start to think about it that way will at baseline have a little bit less stress. And then I think on top of that is, and I just recently posted about this too, it's okay as a parent to tell your kids like, hey, I need some time to rest. And yes, I cannot fulfill every last one of your needs 24/7. I think that's an inherent guilt that comes with that. And I can understand where the guilt comes from, because especially when you are the first

• 18:20Speaker 03

  generation or second generation of the affluent parent, or the semi-affluent parent, and the idealized form of parenting for you is now to provide all of these things that you did not have, then the idea becomes like, I need to be there for them all the time. And that's not necessarily the case. Like, kids can experience toughness and build resilience, and it's okay to say no to them. It's okay to have boundaries in place. It's okay to have consequences. It's okay to have rewards. It's okay to time things such that, like, yeah, you aren't gonna get your iPad until Saturday for 30 minutes. And then the disappointment component, yeah, I mean, you being disappointed is okay. And so I think there's that part. And then I'll be candid with you, I don't have the

• 19:03Speaker 03

  greatest solution for how parents can be more well. And the reason why I say that is because the factors that factor into parents being more well is, it's so multifaceted. I think about black women in our country. So unemployment amongst black women is

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Incredible right now. It is absolutely incredible. So financial stress can definitely lead to home stress, right? We think about some of the the thoughts and worries that a lot of black parents will have as a function of things that have happened in the past and things that are happening now that almost feels like a modern day Emmett Till is happening. And so you have those worries almost to the point of like, I don't want my child outside of my sight. So you got that going on. And then I think above all of that, like the economic pressures of things just being so much more expensive.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  So you got all that going on. And the child themselves are in a world that is causing like, we have like, the social media thing going on. We got sexual trafficking going on. We got pornography going on. We got vaping going on. We got new marijuana with THC levels that we've never seen before. You have so many different factors that are playing a role in what parenting is today versus what it was before. And this is not me comparing eras, but just saying that the weight of a parent today is drastically different. And there's a multifactorial component to it that we are still trying to grapple with.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  Chatbots and chatbots that have caused some teenagers to decide that maybe living is not worth it anymore. That's happened in Florida, happened in California, happened in Colorado recently. There's a lot of things to put into play. And then asking a parent like, yeah, what all this different stuff going on? And that's just the stuff we know about. That's not the stuff we don't know about. It just pops up out of nowhere. Food security, you know, we got like the psychosporal thing going on. And then now we got the jalapeno thing going on like, and then there's like vaccine changes, like what's the right thing, what's the wrong thing? And I don't know if parents get a break now. Because like every time they think they got it figured out, it's just like, something new is just like popping up. And so that part is very difficult.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  And then affluence plays a role. Affluence plays a role as to whether or not you can take a vacation. And whether or not the vacation will be pleasant. Family support. There's a lot more people who don't live where they grew up. Yeah. And so you don't have the family component that maybe I grew up with my grandmother down the street and my aunt down the street and my cousins down the street and my uncle. We all lived in the same city. You know, it was a big deal for us to leave and go visit somebody. Now you have families who are migrating to different places all the time for new job or new careers or because they got into a romantic relationship with somebody new. So things are rapidly changing and it's making it very difficult for parents to be able to relax and take a break.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you. I mean, it feels like there's a lot for sure working against parents, but I don't think we would argue on the fact that like, our reactions to our middle schoolers definitely are seats in like how well we are doing, right? And how well we are managing or not managing all of these different stressors. Yeah. More from our conversation after the break.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeartRadio

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  app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 23:30Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  I'm like a kid when I play music and I make music and I'm constantly asking questions, you know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played or it's a melody that seems foreign. You know, there's every night you play a show and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album. So and you, you obviously are an expert here.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  So something that you mentioned earlier that I definitely want to make sure we pay some attention to is friendships in middle schools, right? So, you know, early on in their lives, they kind of were best friends with whoever they sat behind in the circle or whatever, right? And now friendship is not so automatic. There are lots more decisions around like, who's my friend, who's not? There's some bullying, I think, often going on and kind of just behaving as like, oh, this feels different. So what about the middle school age makes friendships so dynamic?

• 24:59Speaker 03

  I'll just go through the list off the top of my head of things that children are factoring into a friendship. Attractions have started to come online. Like, who am I attracted to? Who am I not attracted to? You have that part going on. You have proximity going on. Proximity to my socioeconomic state, proximity to my religious preferences, proximity to my family style, like my family structure, proximity to my friends that I already have, proximity to what classes I'm in. How do I see myself? You'll see children who struggle with self-perception become the kids who feel like they need to please everyone around them. And so then you

• 25:43Speaker 03

  have these kiddos who can recognize that. And now all of a sudden, there's like this imbalance in how they share experiences and how they share resources and even how they share decisions, right? So you got all that going on. And then on top of that, the school culture itself. The majority of the time, obviously, a lot of friends are made at schools. And the school culture itself plays a role. Racial dynamics play a role. Gender dynamics play a role. Experiences prior to middle school play a role. So like, you got the kiddos who traveled the world. You got the kiddos who've never traveled the world. You got the kiddos who are new here and they never even lived in the city before. And they're transitioning. And you have the interaction with

• 26:25Speaker 03

  teachers. So I read a paper every morning, but this morning I actually was listening to some audio associated with a paper. And it was talking about how sometimes there is like preferential treatment by the teacher as a function of the teacher having fear of the child being agitated. So when the teacher feels like that child has a propensity to be really agitated and disruptive in a classroom, sometimes they'll have preferential treatment towards that child such that they hope that being a little bit more attentive to that child, a little bit more nurturing with that child, a little bit more closer with that child will hopefully prevent them from disrupting the rest of the class. And what ends up happening is that there's

• 27:07Speaker 03

  a shift in attention share for the rest of the kids in the class. And then the kiddos who feel confident about what they're doing and probably don't need as much help, they do fine. But the kiddos who actually need just as much attention or some version of attention that's a little bit more than what that kid is getting a lion's share of, those kiddos struggle. So sometimes they're distracted because they're also dealing with maybe some neurodevelopmental differences like ADHD or undiagnosed autism, or maybe some sort of literacy challenge, or some sort of computational challenge. And they'll look for another kid who's distracted. And then now you've built a friendship based on a negative behavior, right? And so the dynamics within

• 27:51Speaker 03

  the classroom play a role in who you end up being in context with. But there's a thing that I like to think about. And sometimes me and my friends just sit down and I actually was thinking about this the other day with one of my child and adolescent psychiatry friends while we were on a bike ride, about how much the environment at home shows up and how frames are developed at school.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  So for instance, if you were to think about a child who is like significantly demeaned at home, or they're constantly corrected and not praised is not very often, then you can imagine that maybe in the school environment, that child will look for people who will validate them. And sometimes the person validating is not the best person to validate you. But yeah, there's a potential for friendship to develop as a function of that. And then there's the other part that like extracurricular activities play a role in how friendships are formed. So like, do we play soccer together? Do we play basketball together? Do we go to the same park together? Do we live in the same neighborhood? When I see you, do I feel like you see me?

• 28:58Speaker 03

  Because you'll ask some kids like, oh, so like, how do you develop your friends now? Oh, I look for people who like what I like. So like, maybe they like cars, or maybe they like comics, or maybe unfortunately they like something like pornography. So they look for a kid who likes pornography or like they think or likes riskier behaviors or doesn't have as much oversight at home. And they're like, yeah, my mom and dad don't look after me either. Okay, all right, cool. We can hang out together, because you know, we in this thing together and they wanna feel security. So, yeah, the dynamics of developing friends, wild. Not to mention, you also have like, the thing I was talking about, which is this transition to identity versus role confusion, which is like, who am I?

• 29:43Speaker 03

  And part of who am I is like, who kind of validates who I think I am? I talk about this a lot, like, people forget that like, when the controller switches over to the child, right? And the child is a teenager. They are now at every turn trying their best to prove to the adults like, I'm independent. Sometimes even to a fault. Those things like, no, I got it. And you just like looking at them from a distance like, you clearly ain't got it, but it's very obvious you don't have it. But what they're really saying is like, I wanna prove my independence because I know that you're in control of my independence right now. And so I wanna prove it to you.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  And it's very difficult to get them to a place where they'll admit that, like, yeah, I'm not, I ain't got it. Because it feels like it's a big blow to their resume for how independent they are. That they're trying to grandstand to the people who have power, right? The person who's gonna tell them that they can drive now, or the person who's gonna tell them they can go to the party, or tell them that they can go to homecoming, or tell them that, yes, you can go over and play at Johnny's house, or whatever, or Jane's house, or whoever. And so, in building that resume of independence, they fail sometimes. And the most difficult thing is to get them to reflect and be introspective, because empathy is still on the back burner.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  It's crazy, because I did this video talking about, you know, did you all, I told teenagers, did you all know that adults have feelings too? And so many teenagers were like, what? They're like, what do you mean? I was like, yeah, they get sad and angry and upset and like, sometimes we all say hurtful things and it actually hurts them. And I'm like, well, I never really thought about that. And, yeah, yeah, I think the dynamics of the teenage years and building friends is interesting. And I think it's also, it's a difficult thing for parents to navigate. Because sometimes they come from the perspective of, well, this is what I will want a friend to be. And I'm cautious when I say this.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  I think it has validity, though. You know, a lot of the skills to do a thing come from modeling. So like, developing a friendship. If you ask kids, like, so like, what do you look for in a friend? And they're like, I don't know. Well, you know, like, I don't know what I'm supposed to look for. And what they're really saying is, um, no one's ever sat me down and explained to me what characteristics I should be looking for in a friend. And like, literally explained to me, like, taught it to me. And then they teach back to make sure I actually understood it. And then allow for me to kind of practice it at home. And then try it out, and then have a conversation active as well. How did it go? What can we change? And so this idea of like formally teaching a child to develop a friend

• 32:36Speaker 03

  is not necessarily a foreign concept, but we just kinda, we do it by osmosis. It just, we just, it just happens. And then when it doesn't go in any way, shape, or form in the way that the parents like, they're like, what happened? Like, why did you pick them as a friend? And if you listen to them closer, they're like, well, I don't really know how to pick friends, like, and I don't know if anyone actually taught me how to do it. You just assume that I would just know how to do it because of the environment you put me in. But you can like literally sit down and teach kids things like gratitude, things like defining respect in a home. I remember when you were doing this video, I was like, if you set your child on it and asked them like,

• 33:20Speaker 03

  define respect in this home, they're like, I don't even think I can do that.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  And I was like, so what does that mean for the child when you're like, you don't respect me? And they're like, I don't even know what you're saying right now.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Like, I don't know what this actually means. And so, those are like teachable moments for all of us, because none of us would talk with stuff. Like, I was taught this stuff, books and residency and all of that kind of stuff. It's not obvious.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that that's a good reminder, right? Especially if your child is more talkative, or like presents maybe as more mature than they are. You can forget that like, oh, these are things that like, eventually somebody has to teach them, and it is my responsibility, at least in part, to teach some of this stuff.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  So I wanna pause, Dr. Russell, because you've given us such great information. And I wanna make sure that people can like leave with some actionable, like a little bit of a toolkit for some of the experiences they may be having with their middle schoolers. So I wanna give you some scenarios and see if you can offer us some like responses or ways for parents to think about it. So, your middle schooler has their first fight. Maybe it's physical, it might be a verbal altercation, maybe something that gets them in trouble at school. What does a parent do in that moment? How would you suggest they navigate it?

• 34:29Speaker 03

  First things first, don't crash out.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  That sounds crazy.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  I don't know, Dr. Lade, I think I'm crashing out. I don't know.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  No, because it's not helpful. You know, it's not, it's genuinely not helpful. I'll say this, and then I'll give you my answer. When you go into an emergency department, right? And there's a trauma. The last thing you want is for the person who's leading the trauma to be nervous and chaotic and

• 35:01Speaker 03

  frazzled, and you want them to be calm and chaos. And your child is illustrating to you like, hey, I became so emotionally distracted that I became physically harmful. That's what happened. And there's a teaching moment there. There may even be some consequences there. But if you crash out, then what are you telling them to do? Oh, yeah, that's the thing we should do. Like, because I always say like, what happens when the person with the most control loses control?

• 35:33Speaker 03

  Everybody who has less control is for sure gonna lose control. So first things first, don't crash out. Second thing is, you know, obviously get them to safety. And then ask them like, is now a good time for us to have a conversation about what happened? I wanna know what happened. I know I'm gonna hear something from the school of what happened, or wherever. I know I'm gonna hear from a teacher what happened, but I wanna hear from your perspective, what happened? And I don't go into it with the conversation of like, oh, you're wrong, or, no, I just want to understand, like genuinely what happened. And I let them talk as much as they need to. And if they gonna talk for a long time, I grab a paper pad and I write down things and I wanna remember.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  And I always come from a question base, like, also, you told me about this, like, help me understand this. Help me understand, like, what led to you being that angry? Did you sleep well last night? Did you wake up this morning tired? Did you eat a good breakfast? Were you already anxious about what was going on in class? Or did you kind of notice it was gonna happen? Had you and this person had a disagreement before? Because I wanna get the anatomy of what happened, not just what happened in the moment, right? Sometimes we'll focus so much on the fact that they got in a fight. And it's like, well, what led to the fight? Did they not sleep well last night? Did they not eat breakfast? Were they anxious about class? They know that this is happening. Did somebody hype it up? Did somebody go and tell somebody else, like, yo, they ready to fight, you know, whatever? And after all of that,

• 37:01Speaker 03

  obviously, if I come to the conclusion like, yo, you were way out of line about this, then like calmly we can institute behavioral change management. And like, we can think about ways to adjust the behavior and put in guardrails to make sure this kind of stuff doesn't happen again. But also like a consequence that's reasonable. Sometimes we like go on two ends. We either like do very little, or we like, you about to be in hell for two years. And it's like, well, that's not gonna be helpful. So, you know, and that part is subjective, I think, for the most part. But all of that stuff is done in a calming environment. Because you already been in a chaotic environment. Like, you just got into a fight. Like, what's the point of me making another chaotic environment? You know, because like, honestly, I can't really get you to reason that much if

• 37:47Speaker 03

  you just become just as hyped as you were when it happened, right? And I know all of these things are difficult, which is why I would say even before, first of all, we get my child to safety. Second thing is that I will work through all of my own emotional reactions before I go talk to my child about this. Because for my child, I need to be a leader. Maybe with my spouse or with my mom or my aunt or somebody else, I can be as emotional as I need to be to get my own processing happening. But with this child, I need to be a leader. It doesn't mean that I can't show expressions of emotions, but it means that I, this child does need me to be a leader because they need to learn from this moment. I need to make sure that they're safe in the future. And I need to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  And it's kind of hard to do that if I'm like all chaotic and now all of a sudden the child is like, well, if you spazzed out about it, then how can you tell me not to spazz out about it? Like, that just makes sense, you know? And so, yeah, that's, that's how I would handle it. And also, I think for these kinds of situations, for me personally, I've been married for 20 years. I check in with my wife and I'm like, hey, here's how I'm feeling about this. Would it be better if you had this conversation with her? Because I feel like this might trigger some emotions in me that wouldn't be helpful for this conversation. And I know what I'm equipped to do well in and what I'm not equipped to do that well in. Even being a child psychiatrist, I know that there are still things that I'm just not,

• 39:16Speaker 03

  I'm not perfect at everything. So there's something that I'm like, hey, honey, can you talk to her about this? Because I feel like you're gonna be more even keel about it than I would. And then if I were to become like emotionally irrational during that conversation, learning how to repair, learning it's okay to be like, hey, I'm sorry. I had a moment. I struggled with this thing that just happened and I want you to be safe and I love you that much, but there's a way for me to illustrate to you love without making you scared.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions. Each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 40:42Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 41:00Speaker 06

  Man, I'm a black and Mexican kid from San Pedro and I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be like boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in LA was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like what we get to do with, with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally, you know, connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of like defiant with love, though.

• 41:36Speaker 04

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  So your child comes home with their first heartbreak. What do you do?

• 41:54Speaker 03

  Did I know about the heartbreak before they, I didn't even know they had their heart?

• 41:59Speaker 03

  I ain't, I ain't know they had a little boo.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  So whether you knew or not, well, let's say you did know, you knew about it. They were kind of talking on the playground, whatever they do.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  And now this person has decided they don't want to have that kind of relationship anymore and they're heartbroken.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I want them to experience all the feels. I want them to experience all the feels of that. And again, I think I want to be the even keel person in the room, but I also want to be in the thick of it with them sometimes. I'm like, man, that sounds like it's so hard. I want to empathize with them. I really want them to feel like they're not in this thing alone, but also give them the space to feel what they need to feel. Make sure that they're not like self arming or doing something very deleterious to their life, but genuinely want them to have some of these emotional experiences, the crying, the getting upset and all those kinds of, and then asking them like, so what do we do with this? And helping them to walk through what is the solution for this feel like?

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Is it you writing about it? Is it you, you're getting a song about it? Is you just letting it dissipate over time? And giving them kind of some autonomy, especially if they are like 14 and 15, 16 years old. Like, what do you want to do with this?

• 43:15Speaker 03

  And then reverse engineering like, okay, if this is the end goal, then what do we need to do to get there? And even those solutions will be very nuanced to the child that you're dealing with. Because some kids will go and draw about it. Some kids will paint about it. Some kids will write a song about it. And then some kids are probably going to cry about it for a little while before they get there. So, yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. So a lot of it, it sounds like is modeling like, hey, this sucks. This is a sucky experience and we don't have to like try to fix it all right now. We can just deal with it. Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  One hundred percent.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  So Dr. Lidia, you mentioned earlier, kind of in passing, but I do think it's important to talk a little bit more about like anxiety and what it looks like in our middle schoolers. And we know there's some ways that has come out kind of post pandemic, especially for this age group, right? Because they were kind of on the forefront of like virtual school and all of those things. What kinds of things should we be looking for in our middle schoolers to know whether this is just a normal kind of part of adolescence versus this may be something that requires more attention?

• 44:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think people often think of anxiety as like somebody just coming out and verbally telling you that they're nervous or it's kind of obvious that they're nervous. But actually, when we think about anxiety from a psychiatry standpoint, we think of like a constellation of symptoms. We think about things like, is this person like often fatigued, unusually fatigued? Because they're constantly worried about something and sometimes it can be like a constellation of issues that now they just like, I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that. Frequent stomach aches is a big one. Kiddos like, oh, my stomach hurts. Oh, my stomach hurts. Oh, my stomach hurts. Headaches. Headaches is another big one. Muscle tension.

• 44:51Speaker 03

  Some kiddos will say like, yeah, I'm always clenching my jaw. I'm always boning my fists or I'm always like hunching over and crunching my stomach or something like that. Some of these kiddos will also like avoid, they'll avoid like group work or social events. Some kiddos will refuse to go to school, like absolutely refuse to go to school. They'll come up with any excuse under plan to not go to school. And then another one that sometimes we think of as disrespect or we'll think of it as like being defiant. It's like irritability and anger. Like so many of these kiddos are, they're very anxious and they become irritable and agitated.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  And while we can think of it as wow, like being disrespectful is like, no, they're actually irritable. Like they're, and they're irritable because there's something that they're worried about. And again, to the point of what I was saying earlier, like sometimes admitting these things can feel like an insult to this resume you're trying to build around confidence, right? And so I think in those cases, when it becomes so severe that like you can notice these things, that the best thing to do is like talk to your primary care provider. Talk to somebody who can help, whether it's in some cases it's therapy, in some cases it's therapy plus medication. Sometimes it's therapy plus medication plus some parental changes. And sometimes it even requires some school modifications.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Whether like thinking about things like bullying. Some kids get very anxious about going to school because there's like cyberbullying going on. There's like actual bullying going on in school. Sometimes they're being pressured to do things, there's peer pressure and stuff going on. There's a lot of different factors that are going on, but I think the best thing to do is, is like not always interpret the behavior that you see in your child initially as defiance or oppositional defiance. But think a little bit deeper, like what constellation of symptoms is going on? And could this possibly be anxiety? Like a kid who doesn't go to sleep well at night and like they're staying up late and waking up early and they're talking about their stomach hurting or they're quiet when they're usually talkative or they're talking when they're supposed to.

• 46:56Speaker 03

  You know, when there starts to be behavior changes, you gotta look out for like, what's really going on? You know, and become like a little scientist and figure out, become a little curious. I always tell parents, be curious before you can do, be, be curious. Because oftentimes with kiddos, there's something that they're not telling you with their words, that they're telling you with their behavior and the way they're moving around.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. So one last question for you, Dr. Lidia, because I know you got to get back to your day. So what's one thing that you, what's one thing that you feel like every parent gets wrong about middle schoolers in these teenage years?

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Oh, man, that they're not thinking.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  They are thinking. Sometimes I think they're overthinking. Rightfully so. You know, I think there are a lot of them are calculating like every last little thing and but they are thinking and I think the best way to get a glimpse into what they're thinking is to figure out what is quality time to them.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  So I tell parents oftentimes like, ask your kid, what is quality time with me? Just me and you? What does that look like for you? For some kids, it's like, let's take a ride. Give me the ox cord and let's just ride. Some kids like, let's just go get ice cream together. Some kids is like, let's sit down and play a video game together. Some kids, it's like, let's go for a walk together. And then just let them talk. Don't interrupt them. That's the one thing I tell them. Don't interrupt kids because they'll tell you things if you let them talk. But if they learn that like my voice doesn't matter, then they shut down quickly. And when they shut down, they shut down. And sometimes it's hard to pull them out of their shell. But if you want to know what they're

• 48:44Speaker 03

  thinking, you gotta be willing to listen to them. And like genuinely listen to them, not for like a aha, I got you moment, or a let me correct you moment, as much as it is like a curiosity moment, like an Inspector Gadget type situation where you're like, dang, so that's what happened? Dang, what was the environment like when that happened? For real? Who else was there? Oh, yeah, I remember that kid. I met that kid before. What was he wearing that day? You literally gotta be curious, not necessarily to say, oh, I'm about to fix this right now, as much as it is to have an understanding. And then they utilize that understanding in the way in which you deal with it, you know? So maybe you'll make a modification to how often

• 49:28Speaker 03

  you check in with the teachers as a function of telling you something that sounds like bullying. But maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's maybe it's just like a riff or something that's going on. So I think teenagers are thinking. I think middle schoolers are thinking. I just think that they got a lot of stuff going on at the same time. So some stuff they say is irrational. And that's okay. Just let them get it out. Because you want them to know that you're a good sounding board, you're a sound sounding board, and that you know how to listen. Because eventually, when they become teenagers and they're out of the middle school years, if you want them to listen, they have to know what it feels like to be heard. Because unless they've frequently seen what it looks like for people to be heard, they'll only be looking for opportunities to get it out. And sometimes you'll see some kids who like try to hurry up

• 50:10Speaker 03

  and get it out because they anticipate somebody's about to interrupt them. And they really aren't fully thinking through what they're trying to tell you because they're just worried like, I better hurry up and say it because you're about to cut me off, you know? So, yeah, yeah, they're thinking now. I promise they're thinking.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  That's a helpful reminder. So you have referenced several times that you've talked about it online. And so I want to make sure that people know where to follow you. I highly encourage that because not only I think is a good information for us as parents, but I have also sent several of your videos and TikToks to my son, which makes great conversations, right? And so it's like, oh, mom didn't say this, like this person online said it. And so now it doesn't feel as threatening. So tell us where we can find you online and maybe give us a little snapshot, although you already have, of the kinds of things you talk about and like how you hope to use your online platforms.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can find me on every social media platform, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Threads, at DR Russell Ledet across every social media platform. And my hope with my social media is that I don't need parents to be gentle parents. I don't need them to be the most controlling parents. I just need them to be reasonable parents. But I also need the teenagers and the preteens and especially for the toddlers, for them to be smarter. Because if you just work on one part, then you're not really moving a needle. So oftentimes, you'll see like this bimodal approach to the way that I communicate, where I'm talking to both the teen and the parent, or the preteen and the parent. And

• 51:43Speaker 03

  in a way of the toddlers, you really can't talk to the toddlers. So I just talk to the parents and toddlers because they are going through it with sleep and tantrums and feeding and all those other kind of stuff. And so, yeah, my hope is that both the parent and the child get smarter. But then sometimes I talk about, you know, the relationship between my wife and I and that dynamic playing a role in how we parent, you know, us having a healthy relationship plays a tremendous role in what our kids see and how we communicate. So, yeah, but I love having a good time on social media and I respond as much as I can.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Perfect. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us, Dr. Ladee. I'm excited we'll be back next week with more questions exactly from our audience so that we can get even more in the weeds of what you would offer. But thank you for spending some time with us today.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  You're welcome.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  I want to give a big thank you to Dr. Russell Ladee for joining me for this conversation. To learn more about him and his work, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session477. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you want to give us movies or books to review or share thoughts about topics we should discuss, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at @therapyforblackgirls and come on over and

• 53:21Speaker 00

  join us in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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