Pod Insights Therapy for Black Girls Session 473: We Sent Our Director of Podcasts to Jamaica to Do Psilocybin. Meet Hanifa, Who Held the Space About this episode If you've ever been curious about psychedelic-assisted therapy, this episode is for you. Our very own Director of Podcasts and Digital Content, Ellice Ellis, was invited to attend Beckley Retreat's Guided Sanctuary for Black Women Psilocybin Retreat in Jamaica—a week-long experience designed to support healing through guided psilocybin sessions.
Ellice chats with Dr. Joy to reflect on her experience, sharing what surprised her, what challenged her, and how the retreat has shaped her understanding of herself and her mental health. They're also joined by Hanifa Nayo Washington, lead facilitator at Beckley Retreats, who breaks down what psychedelic-assisted care actually is, why preparation and integration are just as important as the medicine itself, and how creating a culturally affirming space specifically for Black women can transform the healing experience.
Resources & Announcements
Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together.
You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week.
Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast.
Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/
Where to Find Our Guests
Hanifa Nayo Washington
Website http://www.handsofhanifa.com
LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/hanifa-nayo-washington-90032a18/
Beckley Retreats https://www.beckleyretreats.com
Ellice Ellis
Website https://www.elliceellis.com
@ellicellis on all socials
Stay Connectedhttps://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u
Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory.
Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop.
The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession.
Make sure to follow us on social media:
Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls
Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls
Our Production Team
Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins
Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis
Producer: Ndeye Thioubou
Production Assistant: Bria Mosley
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript 15,812 words · 8 speakers
0:10 Speaker 00 Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.
0:56 Speaker 00 Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 473 of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Today, I'm sitting down with Hanifa Nayo Washington, lead facilitator at Beckley Retreats, and our very own Director of Podcasts and Digital Content, Elise Ellis, for a conversation about psychedelic assisted care and what it can look like when healing is rooted in community. We'll get right into our conversation afterward from our sponsors.
1:27 Speaker 01 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
1:31 Speaker 00 A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
2:01 Speaker 02 Granger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Cost climbs. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need, when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.
2:32 Speaker 03 We all have routines. I'm Jabran, and with diabetes, mine was finger sticks. Sometimes, I skipped them because they hurt. The Freestyle Libre 3CGM changed that. It gives me glucose insights without finger sticks. Learn more at freestylelibre.us.
2:47 Speaker 04 Finger sticks are required if your glucose alarms or readings do not match symptoms, or when you see check blood glucose symbol for the first 12 hours. The views expressed should not be used for medical diagnosis or treatment as a substitute for professional medical advice. Individual circumstances may vary. For prescription only. Safety info found at freestylelibre.us.
3:01 Speaker 00 Keeping your money safe from fraud deserves to be a priority, and Cash App treats it that way. With security lock, Cash App requires a successful Face ID or biometric authentication to access your account. It's like your money is protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if your phone is lost or stolen. Plus, if you're about to send money to someone new and Cash App notices something looks a little bit off or that you might be falling for a scam, it'll send you a warning before the money is sent to confirm that everything looks right. Download Cash App and spend with peace of mind today. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners.
3:44 Speaker 00 Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and the Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton Prepaid Card, Sutton Debit Flex Card, and Bancorp Debit Flex Card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Incorporated brand. Visit cashapp/legal/podcast for full disclosures.
4:15 Speaker 00 Today, we're giving you proper boots-on-the-ground journalism. We send our very own Elise Ellis, who, if you're a listener to the podcast, you've heard before, to Beckley's Guided Sanctuary for Black Women's Psilocybin Retreat in Jamaica, where participants engage in a carefully-guided psilocybin experience, supported by preparation, therapeutic support, and integration. Together, we're unpacking what psychedelic-assisted therapy actually is, how it differs from recreational use, why creating spaces specifically for Black women matters, and what people should know if they're curious about exploring this kind of healing for themselves. Here's our conversation.
4:59 Speaker 00 Well, I am very excited to jump into this conversation today. So, welcome, Hanifa and Elise, who is returning, of course.
5:06 Speaker 05 Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
5:09 Speaker 00 Thank you. I'm really excited to talk with you both. So, Elise has just returned from the retreat, and Hanifa is one of the facilitators of the retreat, and I really want to hear all about it. I know that the audience will be very excited about this conversation. Before we get started, though, Hanifa, how did you first get acquainted with Beckley? And what made you feel like saying yes to building this program with them?
5:32 Speaker 05 I have been involved in the space of doing healing work with the assistance of psychedelic medicines for about 15 years. And recently, someone said a really cool term which I've adopted, which is I've worked for most of that time in pre-regulated spaces, so what might be called the underground space or in ceremonial spaces, often abroad because of the legal status of the medicines in the United States. And so, for me, for a very long time, my practice is based in community medicine, particularly working with Black women, and doing work around mindfulness, as well as work with medicines, but in community. Because... You have these experiences, but afterwards is what's really important, how you continue,
6:17 Speaker 05 how you grow. And so my experiences were influenced by my own practice and being introduced to this type of healing about 20 years ago and really saw the impact of practicing with reverence and safety, coupled with therapeutic practice for my own PTSD, for my own stress levels, and immediately wanted to make sure that as many Black women as possible had access to this. And so I connected with the former COO of Beckley Retreats. We actually met each other, like seven years ago, doing some breathwork training and stayed in close contact. And we
7:01 Speaker 05 had been dreaming about this, like, what would it mean to kind of hold this space within a retreat setting with a program like Beckley that has such an amazing reputation and program? And about three and a half years ago, she approached me with some seriousness and said, what would it mean to help build an affinity space for Black women here at Beckley? And I was like, well, I want to come and see the program first because I don't know, you know, what the bones are. So I want to see what the ethos, what the feeling is. And so I came out and did like a kind of practicum where I kind of shadowed the team and sat with one of their signature programs and really felt so much power from not only the shape of the program,
7:44 Speaker 05 but from the space and the land and being in Jamaica. And yeah, I said, okay, let's make this happen. And here are the things that I want to shift and add in to the program that really can allow for more safety. And yeah, we are in our third year of running the program. The first year was specifically for Black women. The second year kind of branched out and tried a model that included women of color. And then we returned to holding the space for Black women in a Black Women Sanctuary this year, and we'll continue in that way here on out as well.
8:19 Speaker 00 So what kinds of things came to mind for you, Hanifa, that you knew needed to be included for this space to be specifically for Black women?
8:27 Speaker 05 Yes, there needed to be A sensitive practice of rest in this space. And so really incorporating opportunities for rest, for grounding, for not having every single moment of a retreat packed with activity. So ensuring that there was time for people to unwind and to also be reminded that the all parts are welcome and that there's nobody that they need to fix or take care of beside themselves for that really to be reiterated throughout the space and our time together in preparation as well as the retreat itself.
9:08 Speaker 05 Also, a lot of time baked in for expressive and somatic movement for releasing. So ensuring that there was plenty of time, not just for yoga, which is great, but also for dance and for shaking and for somatic release, because this is a really important practice for us. So those were some key things that I really wanted to bring to the space. And also an acknowledgement, a deep, serious and heartfelt acknowledgement of the land in Jamaica and many of the places in the world are not untouched, right, by colonialism and the impact of the transatlantic slave trade. And the land at Beckley where they do their retreats is on a wonderful place with good hope up in the mountain.
9:52 Speaker 05 And it was one of the largest former plantations in Jamaica. So being really clear about that as people are preparing to come to the space and then in the space acknowledging it and giving space for whatever might arise around that, it's a really, it's an undercurrent, right? Everywhere we go. And so really bringing that to the forefront beforehand, giving people an opportunity to sit with that energy was really important to me. And I would say wasn't as lifted in my experience when I came to shadow the program initially.
10:26 Speaker 00 So Elise, when we got the email about an invitation to Beckley, you were all over it, very excited to attend. So talk to us about the version of you that was very excited about attending and what was going on maybe in your life that you thought this would be a good fit for you.
10:42 Speaker 06 Well, Dr. Joy, you know me. This is something we had talked about for years. I think ever since I got comfortable enough to share my crazy zany ideas that wouldn't get me fired. I was like, I want to do ayahuasca or shrooms on my behalf of the podcast. And so we had already talked about this in a way, I think, just having open conversations about our wildest podcast ideas. We brought this into our ether. Like, we definitely manifested it. But thank you to the team at Beckley for reaching out to us. Um, I have always been appreciative, interested in alternative medicine. So it's not something I saw out of like, the realm of possibility for me, you know, through
11:25 Speaker 06 the podcast and just through my own reading, I knew that retreats like this were out here. And I'm 28 on the precipice of this big 30th year, which doesn't really scare me, but people do talk about it as a transformative time. People talk about like, your Saturn return, which is something that I'm coming up upon as a very transformative time. So I do think in my own personal life, outside of the professional, it's felt like a good time to meet myself in this way. I've been doing or in therapy on and off, but my entire, you know, life, I think, maybe since I was 11 or 12, on and off. So I'd always been really comfortable with talking to
12:05 Speaker 06 someone else or using kind of this outside mechanism as a way to see myself and explore myself. And it also came on the week of my birthday, which I thought was really cool. You know, it was, I don't even want to say like, the perfect storm, like, the perfect salad, the perfect recipe, where it meets, I think, my professional goals and they have been interested in. I am someone who, what Hanifa said, who connects with the land. I was raised plant-based, so alternative medicine, both from like, the food we eat, all the way to something like shrooms is something that I personally champion. But I'm in a transformative spot of my life, moving into, I think, deeper maturity. And so it felt like a fit. Why not have this experience
12:50 Speaker 06 where the goal is To learn more about myself, to connect with myself more. But then also, something I said for 2026, I want to share more of what I've learned working on the show. And so I also think this was the perfect conduit for that. As someone who's worked behind the scenes for the podcast, now I get to be almost like a test subject, but then be in conversation with you guys to share my experience. So I'm really happy it came together in this way. I don't think it could have been like a more perfect timing.
13:19 Speaker 00 No, it definitely couldn't have, especially coinciding with your birthday. I think there was something particularly kismet about that for sure. So, you know, as we dive deeper into this conversation, we're going to be sharing more about your very personal experiences and like real world experiences around psychedelic assisted care, specifically around psilocybin. And I'm curious about what both of you maybe want listeners to know or be thinking about as there may be some concerns or fears or curiosities. What are you hoping that people will kind of be open to as we continue with this conversation? We'll start with you, Hanifa.
13:54 Speaker 05 One of my biggest hope in all of this work and in this conversation as well is for people to be curious, to remain curious about psychedelic assisted care and psychedelic medicines. To know that there are many pathways in to being in relationship with this medicine. Being on retreat is one of them, and ceremony is one. And now in the States, we are really seeing more and more infrastructure coming into place where we're looking at medical psilocybin access. So psilocybin assisted therapy for mental health care and treatments. So stay curious, know that these medicines have been around for a long, long time.
14:39 Speaker 05 And I think that there is much promise for their impact on our wellbeing and our resilience. And also, it's not for everyone, and that's okay. And I think knowing that, or thinking about this is something that could be for you and keeping an open mind.
14:59 Speaker 06 I think coming from a space of non-judgment is really important. Something we talked about on the retreat, that this medicine has been around for such a long time. And I think there are a lot of stereotypes or assumptions about like the type of person that would do psilocybin, or a lot of associations with 70s psychedelic and like being a hippie and all of those things. And so I think, once you break down your walls and break down your stereotypes and come into whether it's like your own research, a retreat, or just clicking on the website or going to like an informational session, something like that, with from a space
15:41 Speaker 06 of non-judgment, I think you'll be able to receive whether it's for you or not. And I think that was really important for me. That was really important, even when I was telling people that I trusted that I was gonna have this experience. Don't think of it as, I don't know, Dazed and Confused or whatever movie you've seen. Just think of it as the information you're receiving, what it's been historically, the research on it. And so I think a lot of like the pop culture associations with psychedelics can seep into people's mind. And I think it's better to come from a space of non-judgment.
16:16 Speaker 00 So honey, when we're talking about psychedelic assisted care, what specifically are we talking about? And how is psilocybin different from other substances that might fall into the same category?
16:28 Speaker 05 Yes. You know, we're talking about psychedelic assisted care. We're talking about working with different types of medicines, psychedelic medicines. And there's a wide variety of psychedelic medicines, right? So there's psilocybin, there's ayahuasca, there's MDMA, there's LSD, there's five video DMT, DMT, there's iboga, and there's a very long list. And I'd have to say that
16:58 Speaker 05 when I'm talking about psilocybin, I'm also talking about psilocybin in its natural form, right? Because there are synthetic versions that are being made that are actually for application in the FDA process right now. But we're talking about whole medicine. What's important about psilocybin in its whole form is that, yes, the psilocybin will break down into a compound called psilocin, but there are all these other active in components and compounds in the mushroom, in the tissues, in the fiber, that really have interaction with our receptors as well. So the whole mushroom, the whole medicine experience is natural medicine, I think personally, is what I prefer.
17:41 Speaker 05 I think that research is showing things that are synthetic like MDMA or methylo, which is like MDMA light or LSD, do have really positive effects, particularly when they're coupled in the therapeutic experience. And I think psilocybin, when you receive it in a group setting and also in a setting that is based in nature, really takes on a different pathway into the mind, the body, and the spirit. I think that it is, because it is natural, we literally have the receptors in our bodies that attach to these compounds. And I think that there's a process by which,
18:21 Speaker 05 particularly the group experience, there can be a transference that happens and an energetic movement throughout the entire group that will impact the individual as well as the group. I also feel that the cycle, right, of a psilocybin experience is about six hours or so. And so it's something that you can also easily do in a day and then have really good recovery time. And let's just really quickly, like the anatomy of psychedelic assisted care, we're going through a journey. So with the Beckley program, there's several weeks of preparation virtually before we come to Jamaica, like go to the retreat. So we're meeting each other, we're talking about our intentions, we're explaining what the
19:05 Speaker 05 process is going to be. There's a beautiful app called the Circle app that has all these wonderful exercises to help people prepare, right? So that preparation time is super important. So preparation is kind of the first part of the process. And then you move into the retreat space, right, which is a week long experience in Jamaica. And that is where you're coming, you're being with the group, and you're moving through an experience. So there's prep time there. There are two medicine sessions throughout the week. They're separated by integration days. And so I like to call them integration and embodiment. So that's time for you to rest and also to be in, in a therapeutic container, in a container of
19:49 Speaker 05 care to help you unpack what has Happened, what to process what you're feeling, to be in connection with the group and also to rest. And then at the end of the week, we have sort of our kind of closing ceremony. We do this fire ceremony, which is really sweet. And then people return back into their lives. And then we continue with another four weeks of virtual integration and embodiment support. So we're meeting once a week with the group, with the facilitators, asking questions, listening to each other. What are you noticing? And really providing that landing place, which is super important.
20:28 Speaker 05 So the anatomy of sort of psychedelic care is preparation, your medicine sessions and then integration.
20:35 Speaker 00 And who all is present, honey, besides the participants? Who all is present for the ceremonies and throughout that week?
20:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, so throughout the week, there is a care team. So there's two leads. And so myself and Dr. Diggle Spence lead these retreats. And then there are an additional four facilitators. And then there's a nurse that's also present. And then you have like the faculty and staff of the retreat center itself. So I have good hope. And there's just a whole crew of folks who are, you know, hospitality, helping with food and just being really amazing hosts. And we also have a dedicated musician who's there with us throughout on the ceremony dates as well. So there's quite a crew holding that container. Yeah.
21:22 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. And, you know, I was particularly struck by you talking about the power of something like this happening in a group. Cause many people who listen to the podcast know I'm a fanatic about group work. I think it is incredibly powerful. And so can you talk about why participating in something like a retreat like this is very different than maybe like doing mushrooms with your friends?
21:43 Speaker 05 Sure. I'm all about people doing mushrooms however they want to do mushrooms. So do mushrooms with your friend, no shade. Great, wonderful. And when you're coming to a program like Beckley, where this is about, so you know, like assisted care. So you're really allowing yourself to be cared for and moving into a container where you are being held in a process. I think that when you do a group experience like this, there's an allowance, there's a safety, and there is a knowing, right, that there are people who have had their own experiences that have facilitated and held these spaces for many of us many years at this point.
22:26 Speaker 05 So there's an ease that comes with it. But I hear a lot from participants, particularly from the Black Women's Retreat, saying, "I was able to allow myself to unzip, to let the guard down and to just be open to what was going to happen." Because in other experiences, whether they were doing it by themselves or in a more social setting, or in other retreat spaces that were not for Black women, there's a distrust, there's a guard that they feel like they need to hold a shield that needs to go up. And so I think that the group experience, particularly because you're moving from a virtual preparation session
23:08 Speaker 05 to this in-person intensive retreat space, and then you move into integration again. And then we have like an open WhatsApp channel that's just for each cohort so they can stay in communication. You begin to see your story in each other. You begin to see, "Oh, this is something that I share with these people who are around me, who look like me, who move in the same way that I do, who struggle with the same things that I struggle with, who delight in the same way that I can delight." It just gets safer and safer. And so your willingness to relax and to be open is amplified. And Black women are hyper vigilant.
23:53 Speaker 05 And so having this space where you can allow yourself To trust and relax is a massive unusual container that I have found. In particular, we're talking about working with psychedelics and you have mixed media. When it comes to the group show, some people are very experienced. Some people, it's their very first time. And so there's all these different levels. And you know, I would love to hear you have to say at least in terms of just like, when you're in this affinity space, there's a trust that is unmatched. And it just is not something that happens that you can find regularly
24:37 Speaker 05 or with any type of ease in the psychedelic space. So it's as much as we're holding that container, all the women who show up are also bringing the safety and ease and community, right? Into that space, making it possible.
24:52 Speaker 06 Yeah, I completely agree. I think we say, representation matters. And it can sound like this very like loose platitude, but I think I saw it in real time in the space. I always used to say like, oh my God, I have no issue crying. I cry all the time, but I realized like I cry in private and maybe a lot of people do. But being in group, whether it was during the ceremony or when we were in kind of the integration sessions, I really did feel like safe enough to just cry in front of people. I felt safe because I saw other people crying that looked like me. And like I said about just coming into the research of the space
25:34 Speaker 06 or your interest, non judgment, it truly did feel like a space of non judgment. There wasn't a right or wrong emotion. And then I think being one of the youngest or the youngest participant, there was also this, I, for me, like an older sister element. And just knowing that experiences I have had or I am having, other people have been through before and so also feeling held in that way was really important to me, but I think it was one of the kind of real life examples of. Representation matters even, and I think we may get into this a little later, but you know, down to when you're on the medicine in the ceremony, like having to use the bathroom or like need water.
26:17 Speaker 06 And I can have all these anxieties about asking for things and like being cared for. And then you see someone else like get water, go to the bathroom. Like, yeah, I can do that too. Like, it is okay to ask things of people and ask people to hold your hand and support you. And it was beautiful to see women that look just like me do that, but also have the women around me, the facilitators, Hanifa and everyone else there, also care for me in that way. And so I think a lot of it modeled the ability to like ask for things, to express emotions, to be proactive in like your own care. To see that modeled in the space with other Black women was really important.
26:57 Speaker 00 So Elise, I'm curious if you were surprised or maybe you expected, like we've already heard Hanifa talk about like the prep work that was involved in kind of going before and then the sessions afterwards. So were you surprised by that? And can you talk a little bit about like what kinds of things were you asked to do leading into the retreat?
27:14 Speaker 06 So I think the first step was just a general screening on who is Elise? What is my support system? And what is my, I think, relationship to kind of self-inquiry, therapy, or my own mental health, which I thought was great. And so, you know, I talked a lot about my own therapy journey. I talked a lot about my intentions behind wanting to come to the retreat outside of like the work of it all. And something that came up for me was wanting to access with my emotions outside of grief. I think when I'm thinking about my emotions or being reflected outside of like a day-to-day journaling practice, it really is like, this hurt me. I'm reflecting on like losing my dad, those type of things.
27:58 Speaker 06 And so it was good to kind of unpack that with the woman who did the screening. And then one of the other facilitators in a later call like, okay, this is what seems to be coming up for you in the experience. Just as I talked about my relationship to my own, like I said, self-inquiry. Then there were just hard and fast questions. Questions about what medicines are you on? And I take, I think it's like spirulactate or however it's pronounced for my acne, which can like dehydrate you a little bit. So they're like, maybe don't take that while you're in the Jamaican countryside in the heat during the summer. And so that level of detail I really did appreciate, but also when you come back from experiencing, you don't know what it's going to be like for anyone.
28:40 Speaker 06 Who was your support system? I thought that was a really great question that I was asked. And although like we have the integration sessions for, I think the next four weeks now, we've had two. It could be really challenging. Like I, my experience, I don't think it was like some big emotional shock that I didn't expect, but that's what it could be. And so who was going to hold you during that? I think was a really important question. During the integration sessions, both virtually and then the ones we had, or like it was a virtual workbook almost, and then the ones we had on Zoom. I really liked a lot of the journaling prompts that we were able to do. I think that actually stretched my journaling
29:23 Speaker 06 practice is having different questions I could ask myself, but I think it got me way before the retreat. So we did then, I think maybe started like almost a month out or two weeks out thinking about, well, what do I want to explore about myself? What stories have I been telling myself? And what do I want to change about that? Or what am I curious about? And then I am a big proponent of meditation. So there were meditations that we did on Zoom and I liked having the space to sit for, I think the longest one we did was like 25 minutes. But also do it in a space where I was going to eventually meet these people. And so even though people went off camera, to really be seen in that way and to set that intention ahead of time, I think it was great.
30:08 Speaker 06 And then the day before we did the ceremony, we did a lot of the similar things again. So you're already in this headspace of self-reflection of being within your body. And then there were just general overviews on what is psilocybin? What is it used for? Like, how is the retreat going to play out? And I think for me as the producer, queen producer, like I love to be prepared. It did put my mind at ease. I remember being in the sessions, they're like, well, do you have any questions? And I was like, my questions are, were more like, So am I going to be out of body? Am I going to like pee on myself? Am I going to like have like a tantrum? How's it going to be set up?
30:51 Speaker 06 And I think part of me just having kind of this other information where Beckley was really prepared. It kind of, I came into it with no expectations. Some of my questions were really like digging into the minutia of like, how were other people's experiences? But I think through the integration, it was that's not the point. Focus on yourself. Focus on like what you want to get out of it. And so I really did appreciate how just from the questions about my medication, my support system to what intentions do I want to set? What's coming up for me? It really did put me at ease. So I didn't have this anxiety about what was going to happen. But Hanifa sent more curiosity into the things I'm intending to explore.
31:30 Speaker 00 So Hanifa, I think a lot of people will be wondering, who is this for? Right? Like, are there particular intentions that you should be exploring to figure out whether this is a good fit for you? And even outside of the retreat experience, right? If I'm just looking forward to psychedelic assisted care outside of a retreat space, like, how do I know whether this is something that might be helpful for me?
31:56 Speaker 05 I think it's important to preface, like, just like with anything, psychedelic assisted care and therapy aren't for everyone. And so I think that being able to find a really good facilitator and practitioner to help you navigate those questions and the sort of suitability for where you're at in your life in this moment. And if psychedelics, whether it's psilocybin or another, might be a good thing for you to consider. I think when we're feeling a lot of like internal disruption, what I would say called dis-ease, where our inter the rather is really turbulent,
32:37 Speaker 05 when we're thinking about conditions like anxiety, depression that doesn't seem to lift or go away, when we're feeling sort of a consistent disconnection to our bodies. These are some conditions and some aspects of being that I think psilocybin in particular could be really useful to support reconnecting and alleviating the dis-ease and moving more into ease. I think that it's also a wonderful practice.
33:12 Speaker 05 When you're maybe in a creative slump and looking for inspiration or to understand what might be blocking, I cannot stress enough how important it is to have that support, whether you're doing it as an individual or with a group. Having someone holding that container with you really helps to amplify the potential like impact of the session. And also know that that person or that team is holding you as you move into your integration process. Because that's where so much actually shifts. Because when you're in the medicine, you're in the ceremony session, or everything is really heightened.
33:55 Speaker 05 I like think of it as like this big eruption, like we're little volcanoes. And then we erupt and the top gets blown off and all of this stuff comes out, right? And then the lava hits the land and it clears new pathways. And, and then over time, as you move away from the eruption, the lava begins to cool. There's literally new edges and growth edges. Your, your frontier has expanded. But also, a lot of things have been cleared away. And so having someone to support you as you navigate that transformation, that for some people feels very subtle, and for some people feels really extreme. And as you move through integration,
34:37 Speaker 05 it goes up and down in terms of how you're relating to what has shifted within you, and how you're responding to things, and what you are more attracting or wanting to do, what you're kind of moving away from. So having that, a facilitator and a practitioner, I would just 100% jump up and down and say, well, if you're going to explore, I can have support in that way. Because that person can also reflect back to you, things that you might not remember, or might not think about, or might not see. So having a good facilitator that can hold the space with you, reflect back to you, keep you safe, and support your integration, really makes a difference. If you're going to be sitting
35:21 Speaker 05 with this medicine. And some people will sit with the medicine and then have a really deep time and have no need to sit with it again. And some people will be like, I think I want to do this every couple of years. Some people might come back to it in 10 years. So everyone's different. And so I think there's also different ways of interacting, particularly with psilocybin. You know, there's microdosing. What we experienced with Beckley is a sort of larger dose. So we're working with three grams and up normally in between the two sessions. When we give a little bit more because of tolerance for the second session. But microdosing is a powerful practice.
36:02 Speaker 05 It can have really big benefits without having these like super wide, big, open experiences that the larger doses can get you. But over time, microdosing can be really effective for your nervous system. So it's different for everyone and I'd say explore safely.
36:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I do understand that so much of it is an individual kind of thing. But are there some maybe medications or particular maybe mental health concerns that you feel like, okay, this might not actually be a good fit for somebody at this time?
36:32 Speaker 05 Yes, there's definitely medicines that are contraindicated as well as conditions. So the big thing now is SSRIs, right? And so there's new research coming out that says that they're not contraindicated, but we have been trained to say that they are contraindicated. And so what does it mean to wean off of or reduce the amount of SSRs you're taking before you go into working with psilocybin? Again, you have to work with your medical professional to support you in that process. But we at Beckley, you know, have worked with people and suggested that they wean or reduce and then go back up as they come out of the ceremonial space because the SSR will just blunt the experience.
37:17 Speaker 05 And it was very interesting recently, we were working with a group and
37:23 Speaker 05 There is one person who just was not having any impact, that medicine was not impacting them. Like, we gave them, you know, boosters and boosters, nothing. And then the next day, found out that they were taking a nasal spray. And that medicine actually does contradict with psilocybin. So it was really some things you just kind of learn along the way, which is why we are so particular to be like, what medicines are you on? Even if it's acne medicine or whatever, because these different things can impact. But also in terms of a history of psychosis, like schizophrenia and things like this in your family. There is also large reservation about inviting people to sit with this medicine and with psychedelics in general, if that's a a deep history in the family.
38:06 Speaker 05 Yeah, those are sort of the big ones that pop out to me in terms of contradictions.
38:09 Speaker 00 And Elise, you have a great understanding just of our kind of general audience and who typically are our listeners of Therapy for Black Girls. Are there any things that you feel like you would want to share about who this might be a good fit for and maybe who it would not be?
38:23 Speaker 06 You know, part of me thinks I've just drank the Kool-Aid and I'm like, everyone's doing it. But I think there is, I personally think like a baseline of introspection into self that you have to have. And of course, Nika, feel free to like push back on that, but I do think it could be very jarring to have this experience and not have like a level of self-reflection. I know people can like throw that around to like dogpile all people like, oh, you don't self-reflect. But I think it is true of the medicine. I use the term like meet myself, but there were a lot of things I had thought about in terms of like shame, my inner critic and adversity that I had
39:01 Speaker 06 already thought about in a safe way through my journaling practice, through therapy, through talking, you know, with friends in a more serious, considered way. But I do think if I hadn't already had that level of like self-awareness or self-inquiry, it couldn't be really jarring. And I could maybe come out on the other side a little more shameful of myself or a little more frustrated with myself. So I think that is important to maybe have a baseline of just thinking about who you are, who you want to be. What you may be avoiding. I think that is a big thing. Like, yes, from my understanding, people can recall like traumatizing experiences on the medicine.
39:43 Speaker 06 That can happen, I think, whether or not you're in therapy, whether you're journaling, doing all the things. But I do think having a level of recognition of I may be avoiding something, or this is coming up for me, and being a person who has a monitor on that, whether it's like a great one or a more humble one, I think it's would be really important. And then I do think, it sounds very vague, but if you are ready to like take the next step when it comes to self-reflection and radical transformation, I do think this could be considered a next step. I was there for like a proper week, really wasn't on my phone that much.
40:26 Speaker 06 Like, obviously, I use my phone, but I think my screen time was like forty-five minutes a day. And so that really did take removing myself from, I didn't work, I didn't watch Love Island, it was my birthday, so I had to like, take a step back from that part of my life to tune in with myself. Doing that for like five or six days to me is kind of like a radical transformation. And so making sure you're in a space to do that, I have found, I can have a lot of anxiety when I have to put my phone down for like four or five hours, or even at the nail salon, getting my nails done, because I'm like, what am I missing? And I think integration really did help me settle with that, because those sessions were ninety minutes.
41:07 Speaker 06 And so making sure you're in a headspace to put some things aside to focus on you. And I want to say that that it's a privilege to be in that headspace. Not everyone can be there, but I think it does take some checking in with myself. Like, can I really be unplugged for five or six days? And it's less about the technology of it all, it's more about the focus on the self.
41:27 Speaker 05 I think for people, particularly women who are going through these different life cycles and coming to kind of like decision points where they're going to go right or left, I feel like working with psilocybin at those times. Could be really powerful, you know, would encourage people to consider, you know, having a session to support a release, the grief that might come from like moving from one phase of your life to another, but also physiologically, you know, what's happening with a lot of psychedelics is they work to, to really quiet the, the amygdala, like in the default mode network to like, just quiet that like chatter, chatter, chatter.
42:08 Speaker 05 So you can like really be clear with like what you're feeling and envisioning and what's coming through. And then the weeks, you know, that follow, particularly the first four to six weeks, there's a phase of elasticity in the network in your neural field where then making new choices and creating new habits is easier. And so I, I really, really recommend it. This is less of like who it's not for, but I think for women in particular who are moving through these different life stages, to kind of that, that, those kind of critical moments is a really powerful time to sit with this, these types of medicines. And there's also a lot of growing amount of interest and research going on into working
42:49 Speaker 05 with these medicines for postpartum support. And so really helping to boost elasticity and clarity and release and positivity that can be really depleted during, during that time after birth. So.
43:05 Speaker 00 More from our conversation after the break.
43:13 Speaker 00 A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert, Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune
43:54 Speaker 00 in to find out. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
44:02 Speaker 00 Keeping your money safe from fraud deserves to be a priority, and Cash App treats it that way. With Security Lock, Cash App requires a successful Face ID or biometric authentication to access your account. It's like your money is protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if your phone is lost or stolen. Plus, if you're about to send money to someone new and Cash App notices something looks a little bit off or that you might be falling for a scam, it'll send you a warning before the money is sent to confirm that everything looks right. Download Cash App and spend with peace of mind today. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners.
44:44 Speaker 00 Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and the Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton Prepaid Card, Sutton Debit Flex Card, and Bancorp Debit Flex Card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Incorporated brand. Visit cashapp/legal/podcast for full disclosures.
45:16 Speaker 00 So, Anifa, can you walk us through like the day to day of the retreat? What's actually happening? I think you mentioned that there were two kind of medicine ceremonies, but it's a full week. So what else is happening during that whole time?
45:28 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah. I love this. One of the facilitator and dear friend who I've worked with over the years on this project would describe the retreat as a breath. So we have the days we breathe in, and then we have the days we breathe out. And so people arrive on that travel day. And when they arrive on site, they get a tour of the place. They get assigned to where they're staying. And they kind of just kind of chill out. And we have a meal. And then that evening, we do an opening circle. And so that's our sort of first official time in person together. We introduce, we do a cool name game, and then really go over like what the week is going to be like,
46:12 Speaker 05 expectations, and then answer any questions that might come up. So that's the first day. It's really light and people can drift off and get some sleep. And then the next day, we breathe in together. And so the breathing in days are our ceremony days. Every day starts with mindfulness, movement, meditation. So in the morning, early in the morning, everybody has an opportunity to drop into that. And so that looks like yoga, it looks like meditation, walking meditation, sitting meditation, chanting. Each facilitator leads a different thing. There's a wonderful breakfast. And then we do these one-on-one sessions, which are really important.
46:50 Speaker 05 So it's a time for the participants and the facilitators to connect ahead of the ceremony. And it's either two facilitators and one participant or a one-on-one. And so it's just a time, it's about 15, 20 minutes. And it's a time for there to be a conversation about today. What is your internal weather like? What is your mindset? How are you today? And just sort of getting a vibe check. And then that's where we talk about, okay, let's talk about dosing, where we might want to start. Some people are really clear because they're experienced and they know. Some people have no idea and that's great. And so we have an open conversation about it, so it's not a mystery.
47:31 Speaker 05 Then they get to move into this beautiful process of doing breath work. And so it's a really, really powerful session. And a lot of people have, some people just say they have more of a deeper experience during the breath work than sometimes sitting with the medicine. I'm joking, of course, but it's a really amazing primer. So it's a one hour to 90 minute breath work session where you're dropping into some really deep breathing exercises. Again, to support the mind-body system to go into the medicine session. And then the participants do what we call the smoothie talk. And so that is a time, because we don't offer lunch to participants on ceremony days
48:15 Speaker 05 because we want the system to be open, that we can provide a very nutritious, delicious green smoothie. And during this smoothie talk, it's kind of like a pep talk. And also preparing folks for the ceremony or the medicine dosing. And we also, yeah, set expectations. It's another place to ask questions, to normalize all of the things that might come up during this journey. Then we go into ceremony, mid-afternoon until about eight or nine.
48:42 Speaker 05 And during that time, we're in Beckley, we have this beautiful outdoor space under this covered structure. And you can hear the tree frogs and see the sunset and hear all the birds. It's really lovely. So it's open here. We have a musician playing and then the facilitators and the space holders are just holding the space in the circle, supporting people as we need. People can walk around on the grass or sit out there if they want, going back and forth to the bathroom. So it's just a beautiful, lovely, lovely space. And then at the end of the ceremony day, you can stay under the tent if you want for as long as you need, just because some people come back down in a different rate than others.
49:27 Speaker 05 And then we provide dinner and then ensure everybody's good to go to their rooms and get some rest. And then the next day is followed by our exhalation day. So that's the day we kind of rest and we do our integration. So our integration days look similarly in the morning. There's breakfast, there's the movement mindfulness, and then we move into an integration session mid-morning, which is always a little different depending on the day and also the group and what's needed. But these are activities that really help folks ground in and begin to express, remember, process, make sense of, share about what their experience was like in the journey space.
50:12 Speaker 05 And so we usually have like a group experience together and then we split off into smaller groups. So people have time to be in more intimate pods because sometimes you don't want to share in a big group. Or maybe you want to, you'll go there later. So we'd like to really think about those different intelligences as we hold the space. And then it repeats. So then we have our breathing in day where we do the journey. Again, it's that Nick just repeats the same process. Then we exhale another day into integration. And I will also say of the integration and rest days, we do an excursion to a beach, which is quite lovely. And we also offer folks access to massages and which is really important as well. And then on that last day, before we depart, we offer
51:00 Speaker 05 A final check in, one on one check in, just to say, okay, how was the week? How did it all go? And to also provide that one on one space with the participant, with the facilitator, in case there's something that's emerged that they don't want to share in the large group. And so just to give that space to really kind of tie things up in a bow in a way, to make sure people are settled and feeling like they're prepared to go back out into the world. We also do a closing integration circle where we talk about, here are all the things that we used and learned in this week that you can take back with you. Here are some pointers of how we integrate and have our soft landing back into the world.
51:42 Speaker 05 And yeah, the next day, people get up for breakfast and begin to journey back out into their lives. So that's the kind of more detailed flow of the week.
51:54 Speaker 00 And Elise, was there anything that was like shocking or surprising for you as you spent time there for the week?
51:59 Speaker 06 Not surprising, but I was surprised that I really attached to a lot of the tapping and the shaking practices. I think they can seem a bit silly. I remember growing up, my mom had like a mini trampoline and she was like, this is good for you. This is good for you. And I didn't really understand why, but now that I'm older and I know more about tapping and shaking and just what it does for you to feel settled in your body, although it is awkward and like not a movement we do naturally. I have like a newfound appreciation for it. And something that was said during the retreat was all of these practices from the breath work,
52:41 Speaker 06 to the meditation, to the dancing, we also did poetry therapy are part of the larger toolkit of how to be in tune with how you're feeling, how your body actually feels, and how to really sit with yourself. That was one that I have now implemented into my morning. So a little bit of popping, bouncing, shaking.
53:03 Speaker 06 And I think meditation was my vehicle to like in a body scan typically like, okay, how do I feel from head to toe? I like that this one is maybe a little more active. I'm concerned to be a bit of a hyper person. So I was surprised at how much I connected to that. And then piggybacking off of what Hanifa said about the breath work, like some people have insights almost akin to the psychedelics on the breath work. And I definitely did. And so I was surprised at that. I have not traditionally loved breath work. I find that my mouth is always very dry. I feel very fish out of water during breath work. But I will say, just really the simple practices of breathing in, breathing out, and then doing
53:46 Speaker 06 at a certain tempo. My mind was able to focus on things I hadn't focused on before. And I, at one point, I kind of like threw my hands up and then visually like dropped them down. And in my mind, I saw a cinder block and I had been thinking about something I really wanted to release. And I had a lot of anxiety about coming into the trip. And so it was interesting that just during the breath work, I physically and mentally released it. I found that to be really surprising because I thought I was going to have more of that type of out of body experience on the psychedelics. And I didn't. And so like I said, stripping myself of the preconceived notions, I was happy to discover an alternative
54:29 Speaker 06 way to attach to my emotions. So that was pretty cool, too.
54:34 Speaker 00 You know, Hanifa, as I'm listening to both you and Ali speak, and even as you set this up, talking about the intentionality around not having every moment be scheduled and like the need for rest. So much of this feels like something that Black women would like be running to and like feel really compelled to want to do, kind of just given the everyday busyness, go, go, go of our lives. But I also know that even when we sometimes go to these spaces, and this is what we're looking for, it can be really uncomfortable because it's so different than how we're typically moving. And there can be a resistance to like the slowing down and allowing yourself to be held and to be helped, like Ali said. Can you talk about like how you recognize when maybe some of this resistance is coming
55:18 Speaker 00 up for the people who are participating? And how is that dealt with during the week long retreat?
55:23 Speaker 05 It really begins when we do our one on ones.
55:29 Speaker 05 Just after they do their screening, so after the very beginning, after they do their medical screening, they get assigned a one-on-one with one of the facilitators. And so it's a time for us to like meet each person individually. And we can begin to assess and understand and recognize pattern. And there are some people who are just open to anything. Then there are some people who they need a schedule, they need rigidness, they need to know what's happening. Then you have people who are very timid and everybody's different, but it's like that's our kind of first introduction. And so when we're doing this, we're looking for, okay, what are some of the ways of being
56:13 Speaker 05 that will be supportive and conducive to their experience? And what are some of the ways of being that might be restrictive or hindering or potentially resistant, causing resistance to the experience? And so it's something we see right away. And then in the virtual preparation sessions, you know, there's things that we're seeing and introducing and doing right away to support the mind to understand that, oh, I can relax. So during the virtual sessions of preparation, we're doing mindfulness right away. It's not like we just introduce during the retreat, we're doing virtual, during the
56:57 Speaker 05 preparations, we're doing mindfulness, we're doing body scans, we're slowing down, we're putting hands to heart, we're breathing. And so because we want to normalize that as a way of being that's possible. And it's amazing, you just do box breathing for five minutes and you can see the shift in the participants and in the group and people saying, oh, that was so easy. I don't know why I don't do that more. And so also, you know, it's during also the one-on-ones that we do before on the medicine dosing days, that's a time for us to also, as practitioners and facilitators, help reflect
57:39 Speaker 05 back patterns and of resistance that might be coming up to help people recognize and see that as well. And
57:50 Speaker 05 Normally, though, in the, actually on the ceremony days and the dozing days, there will be a time where one or more people will be clearly resisting. And so what we can do, or what we do do is to go over, ask if they need assistance, support them changing the setting a little bit. So saying, hey, if you would have gone on the grass, hey, you want to change perspective? Well, we can lie down and look up at the sky. So supporting changing the setting is a really big way to support patterns of resistance that show up without being like, hey, you're resisting. Stop doing that. There's no, we don't want to be shaming people.
58:30 Speaker 05 And also the music, the music really is such a big part of the journey and ceremony experience. And really, in a very consistent way, is supporting people to relax more and to, yeah, counteract sort of natural states of resistance that exist. And yeah, Elise, I would love to hear what your perspective is and was on that. Cause I know that you might have experienced some resistance during your experience.
59:00 Speaker 06 I remember during the first ceremony, I was writing and I was probably writing, it's like just scribbling things down. And I think in a way, as someone who like makes media for a living, both writing and producing, that is my way of thinking through the world. And so like I said, I have a journal and practice a journal every day. And so I think automatically I reverted back to that, let me write it down, let me get it out. And I think that was a bit of resistance with feeling or just sitting with it. And so then I remember Hanifa came over and gave me a little instrument to like tinker with. And I, I was still thinking and I was still like in my body.
59:41 Speaker 06 But I think that when it comes to our emotions, there in our day to day lives, there may be like a right way to process things. Oh, I have to write about it. Oh, I have to tell someone about it. Oh, I have to put that emotion to some type of use. And I think the way to get out of that pattern Of resistance was like, well, what if you don't, what if you can just sit with it and let it be? And even during the second ceremony, I joked a little bit about this with the team. I was, I had my own podcast during the second ceremony. I was talking for hours. And I think there were times where I was reminded, just sit with that emotion. Just sit with what you just said and not even sit with it to like, think on it or reflect on it in this punitive way.
1:00:26 Speaker 06 But how does your body feel after you express what you said? And you don't always have to move to the next thing, or you don't have to connect the next dot. And it's funny because you realize how, sounds silly, but how you you are like, oh, of course, me, the producer, the podcast person is talking this much and is thinking about the next thing I should say, or the next thing I should think about instead of just, okay, you said it. Let it be. I don't know. I may have had two more hours on the medicine. And so it was okay to like, sit with that silence. And so I think that was a really great way to put it as resistance. And what are the ways in which we feel our emotions, but we don't allow ourselves to really sit with them?
1:01:08 Speaker 06 And something I said that I wanted coming into the retreat was to be like more intimate with the parts of myself that I may not already be intimate with. And I think having, whether it was me, myself, or one of the facilitators, recognize that resistance and have tools to counteract that, it did help me be more intimate with the things I was uncovering on the medicine.
1:01:30 Speaker 00 Anifa, how is the medicine administered? Is this a pill or is it like a part of the smoothie? Like, how, how are we consuming the psilocybin?
1:01:43 Speaker 05 Very important question. Definitely not in a smoothie. Um, so the psilocybin is administered through, um, or with a T. So the T and then we also offer a booster about an hour or so into the experience of people feel like they want a booster. And that comes in the form of mushroom infused chocolate. And so during the ceremony, we have this.
1:02:13 Speaker 05 Beautiful practice of we start at the heart of the journey and we end at the heart. So that's under the tent. And so during the first phase, we gather, we also do some clearing with different types of plants like sage and palisanto and sweetgrass and things. So we do a smoke clearing of everybody as they come in if they want that. And then we do kind of an opening where we're like welcoming everybody and sort of setting the container, setting where is the intention? And then we pour the tea. So during the one-on-one sessions that happen earlier in the afternoon, that's when we determine what the dose is going to be for each person.
1:02:57 Speaker 05 And, and then that's noted and then we make a tea for each person in a little cup and we just give that to each of them as they're sitting in the circle. Once everybody has their medicine, then they all ingest at the same time, which is very important practice. And then, yeah, it takes anywhere between for some people, 30 minutes to an hour for them to begin to feel the effects of that. But yeah, so it's in a tea and it's using like a linoleum grass herbal tea with the medicine mixed in and the medicine comes from a cultivator in Jamaica that Beckley's been working with for years.
1:03:38 Speaker 05 And they ground the whole mushrooms up into a powder. So it's already ground. We used to afterground it up ourselves, but it's now comes pre-ground. It's tested for potency. It's measured out in grams. So, yeah, really good question.
1:03:56 Speaker 00 So Elise, what has integration been like for you? Both the things that you're doing more structurally with Beckley and kind of just on your own?
1:04:04 Speaker 06 Yeah, so structurally with Beckley, there is an alumni group chat. So that's like the greater universe of people who have done a Beckley retreat. And we do have a group chat with our retreat members and the facilitators there who have like shared songs we listen to and just done like general checkups on each other, but also some of the different practices we talked about, just like listing all of them. So we actually have a list of this toolkit. And then we have, we did, before we came in, we have 90 minute sessions with facilitators where we're doing meditations on those sessions. We did a journal exercise last week, which I found to be particularly helpful where we've reflected on, I think, four of our values.
1:04:49 Speaker 06 And I think that's also something I confronted on the medicine, especially a big thing I confronted was work and creative work and what I want out of that. And those were really reflective of my values. So then to kind of have that put into words after, what I appreciate is that it does feel like a bespoke experience, like, okay, this is what this group needs. And so this is what we're gonna kind of talk about with this group. And then a lot of sharing about how we, I think that first week, I didn't attend the session this week because I was working, but in that first week, just how we feel, what has it been like to just be at home? Because it hadn't even been a week yet. And something that came up for me was feeling
1:05:33 Speaker 06 very like protective of the experience and wanting to honor the way I share. Even I think I've changed the way I even talk about quote unquote like shrooms, like it's medicine. And so that's like a little thing that I've integrated, but a big thing was knowing that I was gonna be on camera, be on mic, talking about the experience. And for lack of a better word, not wanting to like pimp it out, not wanting to cheapen it. That was something that I think was really important to my integration. Like, how am I sharing? Who do I feel safe with to share about this? Because it was, you know, not these big, dramatic, traumatic things that happened in my life that came to
1:06:13 Speaker 06 The surface, but more like I said of an intimacy with myself that I think needs to be honored how special that is. And so there are absolutely people who I have declined to talk to about the experience and in the most respectful way possible. But I want that information to be held with as much safety and care as the retreat was. It's not to say, you know, these people are evil people, but again, it's the practice of like listening to your body, listening to your intuition and knowing like, where do I feel safe to talk about all of this knowledge and wisdom I have of self now. So that's something I've been a little more boundaried about and I allotted other participants
1:06:53 Speaker 06 even during the experience to be that boundaried with themselves and their time and their intimacy. And so it's something that I've definitely modeled. Another thing is I'm, I call myself like the queen of the morning. My little sister's staying with me right now and I told her, I don't really talk until like a certain point in the day. I have very quiet mornings. I wake up, journal, I pull a card, I go on a walk. I have a very strict morning routine. And something that I kind of confronted during the retreat is I do all that stuff in the morning so I can optimize during the day, whether it's work, workout, socialize. And you would think that's to your benefit, but it's not like I don't pause during the day. I don't, you know, not to be that person. I don't really take naps.
1:07:39 Speaker 06 Um, I would just concentrate all this like quote unquote self-care to the beginning of the day. And then maybe some more like formal bedtime practices. But what we did at the retreat was it was really spaced out. Like we did things in the morning, we did things in the afternoon, we did things in the evening. And we were constantly checking in with ourselves and that's something that I definitely implemented now. Still have my morning routine, but just shaking up where in the day I'm saying, hey, are you feeling okay? I'm like very aware of like my heart rate and all of those things. And so taking a moment to do some more intentional breathing has really been to my benefit. You know, like I said, I noticed that all that stuff was concentrated in the morning.
1:08:22 Speaker 06 And yes, it was in service of self, but so I could do all these other things. And so now I'm more like, okay, let me meditate at like 2:30. And at 5:30, like, let me go on a walk, maybe no phone, no headphones and just be very present. And so having those moments of presence, but those moments of quality time would sell, peppered throughout the day as opposed to this grand opening, grand closing where you're maybe a bit tired, distracted, dysregulated in between.
1:08:51 Speaker 00 More from our conversation after the break.
1:08:58 Speaker 00 A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out.
1:09:41 Speaker 00 Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:09:47 Speaker 00 Keeping your money safe from fraud deserves to be a priority, and Cash App treats it that way. With security lock, Cash App requires a successful Face ID or biometric authentication to access your account. It's like your money is protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if your phone is lost or stolen. Plus, if you're about to send money to someone new and Cash App notices something looks a little bit off or that you might be falling for a scam, it'll send you a warning before the money is sent to confirm that everything looks right. Download Cash App and spend with peace of mind today. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners.
1:10:29 Speaker 00 Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and the Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton Prepaid Card, Sutton Debit Flex Card, and Bancorp Debit Flex Card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a blockchain-cooperated brand. Visit cashapp/legal/podcast for full disclosures.
1:11:02 Speaker 00 Panifa, I have had a couple of conversations with friends and colleagues who have done journeys and different kinds of experiences. And I'm very mindful of the fact that it feels like something that gets only talked about one-on-one, right? So it's not something that people are talking about publicly, online. It kind of travels through this kind of underground network of, oh, hey, I tried this thing. It might be cool for you, too. And I feel like some of it may be related to, like, you talked about like the regulations and, you know, having to maybe go to other countries to do it. I also wonder if there is still some like stigma and shame around this being kind of an alternative medicine, a non-traditional kind of thing. Can you speak to that and maybe some of the misconceptions
1:11:46 Speaker 00 that you feel like Black women in particular have about psychedelic assisted care?
1:11:51 Speaker 05 Yes. As you all clearly know, the stigma around just going to therapy came with a lot and still comes with some stigma in our community with Black women. I feel in the past decade or so, we're moving more toward like, oh, this is a normal thing. And this is a good thing. And so psychedelic assisted care comes with even more of that stigma, right? Because we cannot forget about the war on drugs, which people often talk about as if it was a thing of the past, but is actually still very much here. And we know that the war on drugs was a war on people, a war on Black and brown people in particular. And so there's a really big thing around just like safety, legality,
1:12:34 Speaker 05 or putting yourselves in harm's way with some intention. And so it's not even so much that the actual medicine has a taboo, but like, why would you put yourself? In harm's way with the law, right? When you know, when they give you excuse to come after you, particularly if you're brown and black, and you're working with these medicines or have these medicines in your possession. That's that reality is still very much a reality. And I think that you couple that with this stigma that these medicines, they're not even talked about as medicines. They're talked about as drugs. They're talked about as illicit drugs. They're talked about as things that you'll lose all your self-control
1:13:19 Speaker 05 and you're gonna go do things that are crazy and unsafe. That stigma is very, very strong in the community. There is a study that came out a couple years ago where they just, there was like a market research study and they just changed the word and they said "natural medicines" instead of saying psychedelics. And the uptake and acceptability of that from the black community was like 110% higher than like when you say psychedelics. And you can say psychedelic treatment or even psychedelic medicine, but that word psychedelic still holds this trigger of harm and danger because of the societal oppression, right? That we experience in this country. And so I think that
1:14:04 Speaker 05 more and more people are doing these medicines and have been doing them, and particularly in the black community. And it is very, very, very, very much underground. And I was holding these types of spaces for a long time. And I had full-time jobs and lived my life, but I had to work in silence and I had to work underground and in pre-regulated spaces. And I had to be very careful about who I talked to. Because, right? There's all types of other things at stake in terms of like, if you hold licenses and it's, you're finding out that not only that you might be holding spaces that you've done this in the United States where it is illegal, right? And then also like, you can lose.
1:14:50 Speaker 05 Access, you can lose friendships, you could lose jobs, you could lose your people's perception of you if they think you're doing psychedelics and like pushing it onto other people. And so I know that there's a very large underground scene and community and ecosystem. And I have a theory that as things above ground get bigger and continue to grow and you have more regulated spaces and it's moving into healthcare and the medical model, that the underground is actually going to go deeper and wider. Because there will be some people who will never seek these medicines out in a regulated system. And vice versa,
1:15:35 Speaker 05 there will be people who would never, maybe even because of like access and not knowing anyone, be able to receive these medicines in the underground setting. And so I think that there's more and more and more research coming out. And in this system, that's how things become acceptable. That's how they start to become normalized. And so, but what's being normalized is when you apply these medicines, and more and more of these are synthetic versions of these medicines, to conditions, treatment-resistant depression or PTSD, or major depressive disorders. The more studies come out that show that this,
1:16:17 Speaker 05 these medicines work when they're coupled with therapy and support, and that they're working more than other treatments. There's been over 100 clinical studies, trials done in the past 10 years that involve psychedelic science and psychedelic medicines. Right now, at the FDA level, there are three applications under review. Again, they're all synthetic. There's two for psilocybin, one for methalone, which is like a MDMA light. I think
1:16:48 Speaker 05 With the signaling that we're also getting on the federal and state levels, there's over 25 states in the United States right now that have legislation for research or that that have kind of trigger legislation that when these medicines get FDA cleared, then it'll be legal in those states. So there's a lot happening and slowly rippling out. But I also know in these trials and in these studies, you know, it's less than 3% of those folks are people who are women and black women. Right? So there's a lot to be done around normalizing the use and practice of psychedelic assisted care and therapy. And we have a long way to go.
1:17:33 Speaker 05 And a part of my work and mission is, yeah, educating folks to understand that these medicines can be used safely and really, really lifting up. I was a little glad to hear you also say that doing this work in a group model and providing community-based care after the medicine sessions, I think will continue to help spread the word. And so much of it is word of mouth, particularly with black women, for sure.
1:18:02 Speaker 06 I want to add to that, something that especially as like a Gen Z person, something that I have witnessed and we all have witnessed is that like wellness culture is popular culture. And I do think there's basketball and there's Love Island and reality TV and they're kind of like, you know, your rules for engagement. I do think that has happened with what wellness culture is. And so there's ways people speak about therapy, there's pop psychology and with that, all that language is very legible. People can use it to grow their platforms and that's not to say they're being disingenuous, but I do think psychedelics exist outside of that. It's not something people have like the knowledge on and are very literate on.
1:18:46 Speaker 06 And so in the way where you could tell your boss, like, hey, I need to take 30 minutes twice a week for my therapy session. That is not going to go the same if you're like, oh, I need to take a week to go to Norway or the Netherlands and do psychedelics. Like, that's just, it's not the same. And yes, legality goes into that, but I also think the ways in which what is popular and what is not in wellness culture, like I said, psychedelics exist outside of that. And so I think it can be hard for people to engage with it because it's not what we see in popular wellness culture. And I think that's where like a lot of resistance and misconceptions and judgments can come up.
1:19:29 Speaker 06 And so I think what's exciting is that in a way, we start small, like there's ashwagandha that people are interested in, and like mushroom coffees and Alice mushroom. Or my hope is that we'll kind of have this trickle down effect to where eventually we'll get to the natural mushroom and there's more of an accepting culture, both in wellness culture, but also legally, that this is medicine in the same way. And so it does excite me when I hear more people talking about like adaptogens and things like that, because it does seem like we're trending upward in the right way for this to be what we view as care, what we view as
1:20:10 Speaker 06 acceptable care. And so I think I'm very aware of, in doing this podcast, there are things that we view as acceptable care and there are things that we don't. And there are things that we don't understand and seem wacky and zany. And I think the more we have experiences like this, I hope even with this podcast episode, we can be a part of like ushering in the full slate of what care looks like, or mental health care looks like.
1:20:35 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. Anifa, one follow up question for you, because it is clear, like the level of intentionality and care that goes into this kind of retreat, right? Like all of the pre-screening and the questionnaires, like that is the level of care that I hope for sisters who are interested in, you know, participating in this kind of a journey, where everybody may not be able to come to Beckley. So how can people vet practitioners and facilitators who they may be interested in working with?
1:21:02 Speaker 05 There definitely are like networks and directories around of therapists and facilitators, right? And I always say,
1:21:12 Speaker 05 The medicine is always good, right? People holding the medicine might always be good. Some key questions, you know, that I would ask. Say you find a directory and there's a list of people and you don't know who to pick. You pick one person. You're connecting with them. A really big thing to ask folks is how long they've been facilitating? And also, who are they accountable to? Do they have mentors or their teachers? Do they have a council? Do they have some sort of code of ethics that they follow in a group that reinforces that? Really important to know, who holds you accountable? Another really important question and inquiry is around, how do they find balance? How do they work through their emotional weather?
1:21:58 Speaker 05 Important to have inquiry into just like, how are they taking care of themselves? It feels important. And then just backing up, like, how would you find a directory? Right? There's wonderful nodes around the psychedelic societies. So if you look up an organization called GPS, a Global Psychedelic Society. It's a wonderful site and organization. And they have all over the world directories and lists of the psychedelic societies across the country and across the world. And those are really good places to connect in with psychedelic community. And I think that it's also really important and something I wanted to bring up in all of this too is
1:22:43 Speaker 05 just the financial commitment, right? And treatments and work with psychedelics aren't always retreat based, right? You might want to seek out a facilitator for just a one-off session or you want to do a series of three or something like that. Maybe you want to do it in group, but you want to do it one-on-one. But the, but cost is important to think about. And that for Beckley, for the Black Women Sanctuary, it's not just creating the container and having it be facilitated by Black women and holding it, holding that container for Black women, understanding aspects of the activities and protocol that need to be adapted to the needs, you know, that we might hold.
1:23:27 Speaker 05 But it's also about understanding the financial commitment that it takes to take a week off of work, um, travel to another country, and then maybe take a few days off before you go back to work. So our program also is because we do fundraising to support, a fund to support the women who want to come and need assistance in whatever way. And so finding practitioners who understand that, the importance of that feels big too. And there are some funds around for supporting people, supporting folks with accessing their medicine journeys if they need help, whether it's with transportation or childcare, right?
1:24:12 Speaker 05 Or other barriers to the care. Again, all of it is very like underground, network-based because above ground, things are just very nascent right now. So I'm, live and work in New Mexico and my like full-time job is co-directing the Psychedelic Mental Health Access Alliance. And our work is all about as psychedelic assisted therapy moves into the medical model, how do we ensure that we have the care models that work um, for marginalized communities? How do we ensure that public health can cover the costs and be reimbursed? So how do we have a strong Medicaid strategy? And how do we ensure that the workforce, right, is trained and representative of
1:24:56 Speaker 05 and knows how to support people in these spaces? And so it's a national strategy and our first pilot is here in New Mexico, looking at PTSD. And working with women survivors of sexual trauma, veterans and first responders in tribal and indigenous communities. And so knowing that your facilitator or the retreat you're going on or the group you're going to sit with has an understanding of how to hold the space for you is also super important because it's not just a one size fits all care model. You really have to be tuned into not only the individual needs, but like the societal group level needs, particularly when it's working with Black women. There's
1:25:40 Speaker 05 norms and assumptions that you need to be framing and considering as you're developing the container. Right? So I know I just went off a tangent, but it felt important to share.
1:25:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I appreciate all that context. Thank you. So at least one question for you as we wrap up. What's something that you feel like you learned about yourself during the retreat that you feel like you would have vehemently argued against going into it?
1:26:06 Speaker 06 I think I can have a bit of binary thinking and I knew that going into the retreat. And I maybe was a bit steadfast in like my binary thinking. And something I learned about myself during the retreat was not but, but and. And I say that because in the first integration session, we had the opportunity to draw what we experienced on the retreat. And I, you know, said that I was laying down and when I looked to my right, I would kind of see like Jumanji and not in a negative way, but in more of a situation that I had to figure out that was maybe a bit challenging, but not necessarily scary. And when I looked
1:26:49 Speaker 06 to my left, I would see Candyland. And I think sometimes I view life that way. Like there is this kind of pleasurable, abundant part of life. And then there's a very kind of hard work part of life and I enjoy both. But it was interesting when I actually drew what I drew and when I was experiencing the medicine, I was in the center of that. It wasn't like I was in one place and then I ran over to the other. And so when I drew it, what that reflected to me Like, okay, I'm in the middle on this path. And then both of these sides are around me was that both of these things are happening at all times. And sometimes when I'm really in my emotions or reflecting on life, I view my seasons of life are like, okay, this is my
1:27:32 Speaker 06 abundant season. This is where, or even from a week to week, day to day basis, like this is where I'm going out. This is where great things happen to me, unexpected money, unexpected opportunities. And then the other side is like, this is this grind season life. Everything is so hard and I'm being like extra diligent. And I think coming out of the experience, I am better at holding both, but also better at like, all these things are happening at all times. I'm here on a Monday, working. In a few hours, I'll be at the beach. Um, so all of these seasons are kind of like happening at once, but I, I did and still, still do struggle to like exist in a very strict binary, like there is time for work and time for play.
1:28:15 Speaker 06 And now I've been able to hold, there's kind of time for everything. You can't have everything all at once. But I don't think we need to define our lives in these very deep, serious or very like overwhelming with blessings seasons. I, it's both. And sometimes I think you can overindulge in both the negative and positive feelings that come with each of those seasons. If you're kind of focused on that binary. And so I was, it was really great to uncover that. I also think it's very Gemini coded. I'm a Gemini, like having these two strict sides of yourself. And so it was cool to meet myself in that way, but also realize the resistance I had before to holding all of those at once.
1:28:56 Speaker 00 So Hanifa, it has been so great to hear more about the retreat and to hear more about how the ceremonies and things work. I'm sure that people will be very curious after they listen to this episode. So please share more about like, where can people find out more information about the retreat and kind of keep up with the work that you're doing?
1:29:14 Speaker 05 Yeah, so if you go to Beckley Retreats, I think it's beckleyretreats.com, we will have the waitlist for the next retreat, the Black Women's Retreat, which will be next year, probably next spring or next summer. And you can follow my work by going to my website. I actually just revamped it. So it's hands of hanifa.com. And so it's like all the things that I have my hands in, all the different projects I'm working on. So I'm a musician as well. Some a bunch of my music is there. You can get on the waitlist because I am writing a book that'll be coming out for my, just before my 50th birthday next year, which is very exciting. And it's all about my adventures
1:29:54 Speaker 05 in travel, but also in medicine and dream time stories. So it's a really cool, cool book coming out. But yeah, hands of hanifa.com. And Dr. Joy has been wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. And Elise, this is such a treat to be on this side of things and hearing and exploring the integration process with you.
1:30:14 Speaker 00 Thank you both. I have really appreciated learning more about the experience and your personal experience, Elise. So thank you both for joining me today.
1:30:20 Speaker 05 Thank you.
1:30:24 Speaker 00 I'm so glad that Hanifa and Elise were able to join me for this insightful conversation. To learn more about Hanifa and the Beckley Retreat program, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session473. And don't forget to share this episode with two of your girls right now by texting them. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? Drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. You just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at @therapyforblackgirls and come on over and join us in our Patreon community for exclusive updates,
1:31:08 Speaker 00 behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chihuahua, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
1:31:34 Speaker 00 A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:32:04 Speaker 07 With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work and life, ChatGPT can help. Give it a goal, plus things like files, notes, or project plans, develop a trip itinerary with daily updates, or create a prioritized schedule so you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life. Get started at ChatGPT.com.
1:32:32 Speaker 03 Hey, this is Mario Lopez from All Mario Lopez Daily Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry Corolla Cross or a Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. Well, Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at traded. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. ShopToyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.
1:33:08 Speaker 01 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
Previous I Have Some Thoughts Minisode | Jay-Z & Blue Ivy, Nolan Wells, Love Island Finale Next I Have Some Thoughts Minisode | Angel Reese, Brandy, & Latto Page updated October 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated