Session 471: America, Post-DEI

When Ambassador Gina Abercrombie-Winstanley first proposed a Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer role at the State Department, the response from HR was polite and dismissive. Years later, she came back and got the job done — on her own terms, with her own budget, her own staff, and a seat on the committee that assigns ambassadors. What she found when she got inside was not what most people assume. Dr. Joy sits down with Ambassador Abercrombie-Winstanley — thirty-year diplomat, former US Ambassador to Malta, and the State Department's first-ever CDIO — to talk about what DEI was designed to do, what it was never meant to be, and why so much of the backlash against it is built on a misreading. They get into the mechanics of how people really get hired and promoted in elite institutions — the secret handshakes, the drug deals, the posted job that was never really open — and what it looked like when the Ambassador's office forced those positions into open competition. She also talks about the psychological toll of watching allies flip overnight once the political climate shifted, what she believes is still happening inside organizations even now, and how she's thinking about the pendulum — not to minimize this moment, but to prepare for what comes next. The conversation closes with some of the most specific career advice the show has offered: how to run your elevator pitch until it flows, when to reach out to someone on LinkedIn and what to say, and why she tells the people she mentors to bring their best self to work, not just their authentic one. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/ Where to Find Our Guest LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/gina-abercrombie-winstanley Atlantic Council https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/expert/gina-abercrombie-winstanley/ Stay Connected​https://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou & Tyree Rush Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 471 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today, I'm sitting down with Ambassador Gina Amber Crombie-Wen Stanley to talk about what the rollback of DEI is doing to this country and what we can do about it. We'll get right into this after a word from our sponsors.

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• 3:02Speaker 00

  Today, we're talking about DEI, what it was, what it was never meant to be, what has been lost, and where we go from here. So much of what is happening politically right now has a lot of us exhausted and grieving, and I knew I wanted to bring someone in who had been inside the room. Ambassador Gina Amber Crombie-Wen Stanley is a 30-year diplomat, former U.S. Ambassador to Malta, and the first ever Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the State Department. She proposed the role herself during the first Trump administration, before it was ever created, then came back under Secretary Blinken and made it real with a staff, a budget, and a seat on the committee that assigns ambassadors because she knew what happened to people who came in without those things.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  She breaks down the mechanics of how people really get hired and promoted in elite institutions, the secret handshakes, the jobs that were posted just to look like the rules were being followed. She talks about the white man who called her office to thank her after he got a senior State Department job he never would have known about under the old system. She talks about what it felt like to watch a colleague who had privately told her he was a strong ally write a public op-ed saying the opposite the moment the administration changed. And she shares what her younger brother said to her in 2016 when she wasn't sure she could keep going. And it stopped me in my tracks. Press play and let's get into it.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Ambassador.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, so if you could start by telling us a little bit about who you are and your journey in diplomacy.

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Oh, good gosh. Well, someone who looked for the joy in work. And I believe I come to diplomacy as a middle child. That need to make peace with the older and reassure the younger started me off. And so that's how I think I've come to it.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  I love that. So you were the first person to hold a DEI role at the State Department. What did that responsibility actually entail?

• 5:13Speaker 04

  Ah, well, it entailed trying to bring about foundational change to the way that my organization hired, promoted and assigned diplomats overall. Civil servants as well as foreign service officers. So I reported directly to the secretary. It was a C-suite position in the private sector. And worked with other units in our organization to try and bring about greater transparency, accountability and intentionality with how we leveled the playing field.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  And so, given that you were the first person in this role, is this something that you were recruited for? Was it an opening that you applied for? How did that come to be?

• 6:05Speaker 04

  So interesting. I actually proposed creation of the office under the first Trump administration. And, you know, spoke to the Deputy Secretary of State, who oversaw the management of the State Department. And he said, oh, it sounds like, you know, not a bad idea. Why don't you go talk to HR? And of course, HR was not very interested in it at all. But under the first Trump administration, they did have a small unit within HR that was supposed to look at diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility issues.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  So when I got the job, I did my negotiating before I came through the door. Sometimes others don't, and that's a mistake. You've got to know what your resources are, who you report to, and where you're going to be able to have impact before you come through the door. Otherwise, you do two things. You lose the trust of employees because they're expecting great changes and nothing happens. And of course, you're considered a failure because you don't get anything done, and the backlash always comes. So I requested a minimum level of people in my office to make up an office. So 12 people, and I grew it to 16.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  A multimillion dollar budget from the beginning. And the ability to have my voice added to the hiring decisions, the assignment decisions, those things that really make a difference. So that those who, not because they were racist, some are, but not necessarily, but for those who were comfortable with the status quo. It's hard to get organizations, it's hard to get people to make change. And so you have to have some carrots as well as some sticks to get people to move. And so knowing that I sat on the committee that assigns ambassadors,

• 8:10Speaker 04

  for example, gave me a great deal of credibility at being trusted and accountable for the work that I was supposed to be doing.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  So you already talked a little bit about the backlash that was kind of happening then. There's clearly lots of backlash happening in this current moment in history. What are you able to share about your experience? Kind of in Inside that people outside might not understand.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  I think many people thought the problem might have been political, that Republicans were less supportive of DEIA than Democrats, but the challenge really was the building itself. The State Department is the oldest cabinet level office in the country. From the very beginning, you know, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson were out there doing foreign affairs for us. And the State Department has a very high view of what it is the department does, the importance to national security, the importance to the United States international standing.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  The standards for becoming a diplomat or joining the State Department are very, very high. When you come in, you're told that they take basically 1% of those who start the process. Oral exam, written exam, online exam. I mean, it's really, I want to say torturous process in getting in. It usually takes anywhere from 18 months to two years to go through the whole process. Even after you pass all of the exams to see whether you are believed to make a good diplomat, then you have to pass a medical exam, a security exam, clearance, medical clearance, security clearance, and suitability clearance.

• 10:09Speaker 04

  So it's really tough to get in. And so people think very highly of themselves once they're in. We're told we're the best and the brightest, et cetera. And so to get people to understand, no, you're not doing it the best way. No, you're not getting the best result from all of your employees. No, just because we've always done it this way, doesn't mean we need to continue to do it this way. Those are all challenges to get people to change.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Can you talk a little bit about like the diversity among diplomats? Because it does sound like a very rigorous process, right? So what does the diversity look like, at least when you were a part of it?

• 10:50Speaker 04

  Well, you know, it's important to not only look at who's in the organization.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  But more importantly, where are they in the organization? For instance, African Americans, if you look at raw numbers, are overrepresented in the Department of State, based on our percentage of the population. But then you have to drill down. Where are we in the organization? And when I took up the job, the vast majority of us were based in lower level to mid-level positions. But we could be even 20% if it was working level positions, the GS4 to GS9, for instance.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  But going from GS9 to GS14, which is in the military would be the officer corps, going from ensign all the way up to colonel, then the numbers get smaller and smaller as you go up. And then when you get into the senior ranks, what's called a flag officer, an admiral or a general, then the numbers become extremely small. You know, 3%, even though we are nearly 14% of the population and we certainly come in just as brilliant as anybody else. Therefore, you have to ask questions about where are those unseen hurdles as you're going up

• 12:23Speaker 04

  that keep African Americans, Hispanic Americans, women, lower in representation than they are in the population, than they naturally would be. And so those are the things that we went after. And of course, because the State Department is, has traditionally been predominantly white, predominantly male, people think about a diplomat, you think about a white guy in hopefully a good suit.

• 12:53Speaker 04

  But since that's not America.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  The challenge was getting people to think about diplomats as any one of us. I can't tell you how many people I have surprised as I have walked into the room, not only as a US diplomat, but as a US ambassador, someone who's sitting at the head of the table and directing the meeting, getting the best out of everybody around that table, but stops here. And that was a challenge. That was a challenge. When I first came into the department, people were far more likely to ask me to make a cup of coffee than to ask me which office I was representing, so.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  And so the office was initially a part of HR, but it sounds like that caused some tension. Can you talk about like the tension of it being housed in HR?

• 13:39Speaker 04

  This is not the most diplomatic thing to say, and it will be the most non diplomatic thing I do say, is that

• 13:49Speaker 04

  DEIA as a standalone office

• 13:54Speaker 04

  is in some way a reproach to HR. And I say that because if HR were doing its job, you wouldn't need a separate DEIA office. HR would be putting in place those barriers to discrimination, those barriers to confirmation bias, affinity bias, all those biases that are out there, often unspoken, that get people to not think about people who are not like them or whose background or trajectory that they didn't understand or are not familiar with. We like people around us that we're comfortable with, that are like us.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  That seems to be human nature, but it isn't necessarily great for organizations. And so trying to get people out of their comfort zones is a challenge. HR certainly tried to do it. We have had reports and studies done about diversity and inclusion in the Department of State. Since the 1940s and 50s and 60s, for goodness sakes. The department has known it's had a problem, that it wasn't doing well with regard to inclusion up and down the ranks without getting after it in a serious and sustained way. And Secretary Blinken said, I want to get after this.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  And I said, if we're still having this conversation 30 years from now, because we've been having it for 30 years, then we failed. Mr. Secretary, you and I will have failed.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  And what do you feel like people kind of fundamentally misunderstand about what DEI is?

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the first misunderstanding is that it's for black folk. Okay, it's not just for black folks. It's for everyone. And I give the example of one of the ways that diversity, inclusion, accessibility is not well met is because there's often a lack of transparency with how things are done. How do you get that job? What do you need for that promotion? How do you get in that room? Well, how did he get that project? No one even mentioned it to me. And one of the most important assignments in the Department of State is as a deputy assistant secretary.

• 16:23Speaker 04

  It's a senior position, not Senate confirmable, but very senior. Runs a group of offices, a section of the world, as it were. And I have been a deputy assistant secretary. But I got that job because an acquaintance of mine mentioned that he was leaving a particular office. And so I went to his boss and said, I want that job and pursued that job until I got it. But that's a crazy way of signing people to a very senior and important position.

• 16:58Speaker 04

  Most people, women, brown folks, people with disabilities, immigrants perhaps, depending on what country they come from, would never even hear that the job was open. Because we didn't put it on the list of job openings. We didn't compete it openly. People couldn't put their name in the hat and ensure that if they had the qualifications, that they would get an interview. It was a secret handshake. You had to know somebody who knew somebody, or somebody had to like you or think of you, or someone had to be paying a favor back to somebody else. Okay, I'll hire your girl if you hire my guy.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  So my office put to HR and to management, the secretary, the deputy secretary, that these positions should be advertised and competed like every other position. And there was resistance to it because we were changing the way things traditionally had been done. The first person to get a job who called me up and said, "Madam Ambassador, I wanted to call and thank you. I know I'm not probably who you had in mind, but I saw the job posted. I thought I could do it. I interviewed for it. I didn't know anybody in the hiring ranks,

• 18:19Speaker 04

  but I got the job and I want to thank you because I never would have even known beforehand." And it was a white man. And I said, "You are who I had in mind. Everybody is who I have in mind. Everyone is who this is for. You don't have to be in the old boys' club. You don't have to be in the in-crowd, but you do have to be able to do the job and compete for it. It is to level the playing field." What it does mean...

• 18:49Speaker 04

  Is that it's not going to be all white European American heritage men. It's going to be much more diverse, but there's still obviously going to be European American men getting jobs if they're good enough for the job, if they can do the job and they make it through. So I did have an example that I used to talk about to reassure my European American colleagues that just because they were white or male, they weren't going to be disadvantaged. What we were doing was widening that aperture of excellence, that you don't have to be white and male to be a successful senior diplomat.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for sharing that Ambassador. More from our conversation after the break. A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 22:09Speaker 00

  You know, kind of being on the forefront of the changes with DEI, right? Like proposing this and then actually making it happen. I wonder if you can speak to like the psychological impact of it changing so swiftly, right? Like, we are now on the complete opposite of the things that you have proposed. What's the psychological impact to those kinds of swift changes?

• 22:29Speaker 04

  This has been very hard for me and many of my colleagues. Many have not been able to find new positions once this backlash came into form and that this president frightened everyone who was trying to support this very important part of America. Losing positions, and not just losing positions because you messed up or because they were downsizing, but because you were considered to be something negative. And all of the things that you've worked for that you know are right, and then suddenly to be the bad guy is an extraordinarily difficult psychological burden to carry.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  I will not tell you otherwise. It's extremely painful. But what I do know...

• 23:23Speaker 04

  What I do know is that as we were trying to make these changes in the department and in other government agencies is that we had a lot of support from many unexpected groups within the building. People would let us know where there were challenges or problems, or people weren't following the rules, so we could get after it. I feel and I believe that the efforts for equity and inclusion, diversity, accessibility are still going on quietly right now, because it's not just about brown people, or women, or people with

• 24:06Speaker 04

  disabilities, or different heritage, but it's about good leadership and good management. What organization is going to prosper, do well, if a section of their organization is feeling disenfranchised, is feeling like they don't have a future in the organization, that they cannot reach their full potential? And I always explain to people, this is about, in a level playing field, that I have as much chance as you do, if I have the same ability or more, but that everyone should have the opportunity to reach their full

• 24:48Speaker 04

  potential. For as hard as they're willing to work, and the abilities that they bring, they should be able to go as far as possible. And that is not what we have in place. And, you know, my mother told me I was very special, so in a way, I certainly believe that. But the reality is, I am someone who has a good education, a good sense of self, people, very extroverted, diplomacy was my golden ticket. It's what I was meant to do.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  And yet, I know people who had all of that and more, who did not succeed, who did not get as far as I got. And so luck, having the right mentors, having the right sponsors, people who could open doors for you, who can give you jobs, who can validate what you bring to the table. People didn't have the same combination of all of that as I and did not get as far. And having the right sponsor, the rabbi in the State Department, somebody who's going to take care of you should be able to reach your potential without someone having to open doors for you.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  You should be able to get through them based on what you bring to the table. And that goes back to the leveling the playing field. We have tribes, I think most organizations do, the in crowd, the out crowd. Who's got a rabbi, a sponsor? We used to talk about drug deals. And that was, okay, I'm going to hire this person, you hire that person and we'll do it. Or I've got this opening. I'm going to put this person in it, but let me advertise it first to look like I'm obeying the rules. But we're going to hire this person. All of those things, I believe undermine organizations. And as more and more leaders and managers understand that,

• 26:50Speaker 04

  then they want to get the most out of everybody. And I tell people, you know, when you do very well, you're going to make your boss look great.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  Do well. As someone who hires people, I want them to succeed. That means I will keep getting successful people, good people who are going to make the work of the unit, the work of the organization easier and more successful. So that's why. Supporting every person within the organization, regardless of background, gender, et cetera, is good management and good leadership and will continue in spite of this particular backlash.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  It is always shocking to me, Gina, that there is so much research, there's so much like stats, if that's what people are in, there's so much anecdotal evidence, right? That talks about like why diversity is good for business, why it makes people happier, it makes, it increases the bottom line, right? But you still see all of this like backlash and this, you know, like concern like, oh, we don't want to open the pool. Do you think that is just about like people's discomfort or difficulty kind of adapting to change or what more is there to that story?

• 28:01Speaker 04

  I think it's a lot about change. And I did a lot of reading and seminars on bringing about change because it is so difficult to do. Any number of companies who are on the forefront fall behind because they couldn't make change. You think about companies like Nokia, my, my first cool phone, BlackBerry, who couldn't make change and therefore they fall behind. But change is hard. And even those people, white men in my organization and others who understood that the changes

• 28:42Speaker 04

  we are trying to bring about were better for the organization, likely better for them, resisted the change and they resisted it because they didn't want to learn something new, they didn't want to have to figure out a new way of doing business. They were comfortable with how things were. They may not have been moving as quickly as they wanted to. They may not even have been succeeding as they felt they could in the current circumstances, but they understood the current circumstances and they were afraid of what might come next. And I understand that. I mean, my husband and I joked as we.

• 29:26Speaker 04

  We're both moving up in our organizations. My husband nearing retirement. And as he was thinking about whether to do it, one of the things that helped him decide to retire was that they're bringing in a whole new system for the computers. And they're going to have to learn new security, a new way of setting up meetings, note taking, everything that they were doing. He was going to have to learn a whole new way of doing it. And he said, you know, I don't think so. I don't want to be bothered with change. That is very real. So a lot of people, not racist at all,

• 30:06Speaker 04

  but concerned about their own ability to navigate the new, kept them resistant to it.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  What do you feel like it does to the public trust to see such a backlash against efforts to be diverse?

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, it is challenging. And certainly for those of us in the field, eye opening. I have a colleague, for instance, at the State Department, who, when I got brought on in this position as Chief Diversity Officer, you know, spoke to me, told me about how supportive he was and how important it was, et cetera, et cetera. But when the new administration came in, he actually wrote a public op ed saying how terrible it was. And so you're like, whoa. This is someone who said he was a strong ally. But as soon as the thinking changed at the very top,

• 31:07Speaker 04

  then he got on board with the new thinking. So I think many of us may have thought they were allies, but once this administration came in, saw, no.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  Nope, they weren't really allies. And that is something people are going to hold on to. I think it's the same case in the private sector. People have been deeply disappointed with companies that said lots of good things about diversity and inclusion, Target being a main one, who did it even before it became a thing with the Biden administration, made huge commitments about investment, about centering, and basically has walked away from it. A number of companies have done that, have gotten rid of their chief diversity officers. I'm thinking, I'm looking at you, Mr. Zuckerberg, looking at Apple.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  Any number of big corporations that made commitments have walked away. And so it is a reminder that this is always going to be a hard row to hoe, a hard path, because people are interested in their own benefit, people like them, and not being too disturbed by change.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  You've described this as like a blip on the radar for kind of the history of the country. How would you suggest Black Americans like pay attention to this and like add context to this without actually minimizing it and making it as if it's not a big deal?

• 32:46Speaker 04

  Oh, no, it's a blip, but it's an important one, and it's doing a great deal of damage. We are losing out on expertise, on experience, on imagination, on creativity, on flexibility to get good things done for our country.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  We're missing out on, and we're going to have at least four years of missing out on, and unfortunately, likely longer, because it's going to take time to regroup from this. Now, there are a number of lawsuits out there, so we don't know what the final will be. Many of my colleagues who were allegedly fired by the Department of Government Efficiency, it was done illegally, lawsuits had been brought, many people have been on administrative leave. They've been paid to do nothing while all of this works through the system. But the expertise that has been lost will be brought back because it's good for the country. We are a diverse nation.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  We see people willing to fight back, to not allow our history to be hidden, to be changed. People are fighting back about employment, about jobs. And when this very damaging blip is over, the recalibration, the rebuild will happen. What I am concerned with, and many others are, is that we had the first Trump administration that swung a certain amount, but he had a lot of responsible people in government that prevented a lot of bad things from happening. Then we had the swing to the Biden administration with vigor and intent,

• 34:37Speaker 04

  but not the ruthlessness that we have learned needs to happen to get things done and to get them entrenched. Then we had this swing again back to the second Trump administration, and even farther to the right. So when it changes again, we have to make sure the swing isn't so far to the left.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  That we keep this pendulum swinging. We've got to figure out what needs to be fixed and what needs to have a broader foundation, I think, better explanations. And you asked a great question before about what people misunderstand. So people thought it was for black people only, or they thought they would suddenly put in all these minorities without experience or without merit. And of course, D E I A is in fact to focus on merit. My argument is that it's not merit that gets you jobs now. It's who you know that gets you the job now. It's are you loyal to this tribe that's in power? And we see it.

• 35:45Speaker 04

  We have had an incredible number of people who would never be in the positions they are in under this administration, incompetent, as we have seen from their public, whether they're sloppy on security, as we've seen from the Department of Defense, whether they send out unconscionable tweets or statements, even from the Department of State that are racist or demeaning to groups, they would never have jobs. Or if they'd done these things, they'd be out of a job. But because they're loyal, because they belong to the right tribe, so they stay. This is the opposite of merit, and no one can tell you otherwise.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  Therefore, we have to do a better job of tamping down the tribalness that was there even before Mr. Trump came. The whole thing of political appointees, and of course, this administration is trying to get political appointees even more deeply entrenched into public service, which will not serve all of the nation. That's why we went under President, after President Garfield of Ohio, to a professional civil service to take out the tribalism, so that the work of the American people continues in a professional manner, regardless of who's at the top. So we have to watch the pendulum swing.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  That's what we need to be preparing for now and be prepared to step up again. When I first came back to the State Department and we were looking for people who were ready to step out as ambassadors at missions or their deputy, the deputy chief of mission, initially, we had trouble finding minority candidates who were ready, based on merit, for those assignments because so many had left in dismay during the first Trump administration. There weren't a lot of people to pull from and therefore I wasn't

• 37:51Speaker 04

  able, those who supported me as well, we weren't able to make any big change because we were insisting on merit, capability, ready to do the position, people who would not be second guessed because they weren't ready, because they'd been promoted too soon. That's not what we were doing. And as you see, the people that got selected for ambassadorships under President Biden, you will see the level of competence was as high or higher, quite frankly, especially now, higher.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  So Gina, what do you think the process of repair looks like? You talked about this pendulum that continues to swing back and forth. And I think for a lot of Black people, like that feels very dizzying, right? Like I think when all of the support kind of poured in in 2020 and the years that followed, a lot of us were very skeptical, like, oh, we've seen this before, we know how this will end, which is now kind of where we find ourselves.

• 38:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  But I hear you saying like, okay, we gotta almost be ready to kind of ride this pendulum and just hope it doesn't swing too swiftly in the other way. What does the process of repair look like on the other side of this? Because it sounds like you're expecting that, okay, at some point, we will move out of this backlash, DEI.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  But what does the process of repair look like?

• 39:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I think that many people who were in the forefront of DEI are going to have to do a much better job of explaining what it is and what it is not. Many

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Private sector companies hired chief diversity officers. One, didn't give the person budget, didn't give the person staff, stuck them somewhere, often in HR, with no ability to effect real change. So it became a joke. You know, oh, diversity and inclusion. We'll get some new food in, maybe, or an affinity group. But the changes in what people cared about, which is, do I get the same access to training as anyone else? Once I get that training, do I have access to apply for positions or to take on projects or programs?

• 40:11Speaker 04

  Can I make it up the ladder? Those are the things that people didn't see change. And therefore, trust was lost. It was something that black people, brown people, were skeptical of and white people were disdainful of. So what it is has to be explained far more clearly, what it is and what it isn't. And a focus on real change as opposed to the window dressing. The, okay, we're going to set up some affinity groups so people feel better. Those are well and good, but I said, they won't be in my office. That's not what DEIA is to me.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  We are about hiring, assignments, promotion, and making it transparent so people understand what they have to do, regardless of your color, background, gender. So that is the most important thing, I believe, that has to go in place once the pendulum is ready to swing again. And again, a lot of this hasn't disappeared in companies. It is illegal to discriminate. It is illegal to make decisions on protected class. And many people thought diversity and inclusion was making decisions. Oh, well, we're going to give her that job because she's a woman. Or we're going to give.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  Him that job because he's Hispanic or we're going to give them that job because they're non-binary. That was always against the law and no one ever brought lawsuits because we never broke the law. We didn't make decisions like that, but I think we didn't do a good enough job of making that clear.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 42:04Speaker 00

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• 44:34Speaker 00

  So given that we have talked about like how these changes have impacted both the private and the public sector, what kinds of suggestions would you have for people around how they can advocate for themselves in terms of things like career advancement or even getting a foot in the door in the first place?

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Well, I believe there are a number of things that people can and should be doing. Number one, if there are affinity groups, I think those are useful. I co-founded an organization called the Leadership Council for Women in National Security. So that organization is an affinity group for women in this very male-dominated field. But we also run a list of job openings. We do training on interviewing, on having your professional headshot done. We do things that make people stronger candidates. And so affinity groups that do actions as well, that run job fairs.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Those are groups that it's well worth getting involved with to build up your cohort so that people can say to you, oh, I heard about this opening here. And we do that for each other. Once I got into the position to hire others, those affinity groups were very useful for me to send others in different directions and to hire as well. That is one thing. When you are in an organization, you've got to ask questions. If you see a leadership that is not diverse... You gotta be asking why, why does the organization look like this, but leadership looks like that? Where are those stumbling blocks?

• 46:18Speaker 04

  We found, because we did bias assessments, we found from one rank to the next, are you advertising in the right place? You know, we might say this government position is open to everyone, but if you only advertise it in mainstream newspapers, or on television, or certain radio stations, because that's generally where your applicants come from, that you are narrowing the aperture who's going to apply. Are you recruiting at HBCUs or Hispanic-serving institutions? Are you recruiting at community colleges, which are much more diverse than many four-year education? And of course, you become a diplomat, you don't even need a college degree, quite frankly.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  You've just got to pass the test. And one of the people in my class who made it to senior ranks the fastest came in with a high school education, but with a lot of real-world experience that he was able to bring. So joining affinity groups that help with training, professional headshots, resume building, networking, those are good to join. I would say it's also really important that you know your skill set, that you keep it fresh, and that you are able to advocate for yourself. I'm a senior advisor for an organization that I came through as a young officer, and

• 47:45Speaker 04

  it did me so much good, I send them money every year, and I go and support them every year. And one of the things that we do is allow the participants to practice that elevator speech. They've got three minutes to tell me why I should hire them, and critique them, and have them do it again, and again, and again, till it comes, it flows, it's natural, it's tight, it's clear, and it's compelling.

• 48:18Speaker 04

  So organizations that will do that for you, friends that will do that for you. We've got to support each other and make sure that we are ready to step in when the time comes. And that goes, as I said, this is about Americans, all of us. So I do a lot of mentoring. It's really important and my group of mentees is very diverse. They come from all backgrounds because we have got to be allies for each other.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  Is there anything additional that you would offer to current college students or kind of new grads? In addition to the things that you share there?

• 48:55Speaker 04

  For new grads, again, you know, I'm largely foreign policy focused and that means Washington. And there are a lot of really great organizations out there. Whether it's, you know, schools for applying for internships. There is a group called the Women of Color Advancing Peace and Security that does talks. There are any number of think tanks that you can sign up for, whether it's Foreign Policy or Quincy or Brookings or the Council on Foreign Relations or Carnegie. All of those organizations have experts come in to talk about different topics.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  If you are in Washington, you can go in person. If you're not, you can watch online and ask questions online. Connect with people on LinkedIn. Lots of college students find me on LinkedIn and ask for a conversation. And I will tell them, contact my assistant and get scheduled for a Zoom meeting. Or if we're in the same city, we can have coffee together to talk about what that pathway looks like. I hate to look at resumes in all honesty, and I don't think I'm that great at it. But if you are making a pitch, if you are trying for a job, I'm certainly going to be willing to be in ear and many people will.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Don't hesitate to find someone who's in the field that you are interested in. Send them an invitation on LinkedIn. Ask them for an informational interview. Buy them a cup of coffee. Most likely, they'll buy you the coffee. But have coffee, whether it's via Zoom or via in real life. IRL, as my kids say. I will say that if you do it via Zoom, you'll also get additional feedback and you have to let them know you want the feedback. So when I do a Zoom with someone, if they are having a professional one, I'm looking at how they present themselves. I tell people, listen, you got to get your Zoom set up right. Your camera's too high. I shouldn't be showing your ceiling.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  I will talk you through what it's supposed to look like. Are you presenting? When you're saying you want to go into this field or that field or this organization, do you look like the people who work there? And I don't mean your gender or your color or your ethnic background, but is your appearance like what they look like? Because if you're doing an interview, for that interview, you, what do they tell you? Dress for the job that you want. So you need to look at what people are wearing. And it's harder these days because all kinds of things come through the office door, I must say. Then the State Department, we didn't have a job. We didn't have a clothing standard. It was against the law.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  You're not allowed to tell people how to dress. But I would informally tell people. I had a wonderful, wonderful, mid-level staffer, brilliant woman. But I said, you got to raise your neckline. It's, you got to raise your neckline. It will add to people taking you seriously. A lot of people say they want to bring their authentic self to work. And I love the idea of that. But this is what I say. I don't want your authentic self. I want your best self. Be authentic with your friends and your family, your loved ones. But when you come to the office, we're a group. We're a unit.

• 52:33Speaker 04

  I need your ideas. I'm not trying to tell you intellectually to conform, but I want your best self, whatever that is. Bring your best.

• 52:46Speaker 00

  You know, what would you say this moment is asking of black people, both psychologically and politically?

• 52:52Speaker 04

  Hmm. Certainly, politically, it is asking for us to be engaged. I know too many people, too many people who didn't vote, too many people who said it doesn't matter. I don't suppose they'll say that now, because this administration has certainly shown it matters. But it's easy not to be engaged. It can be, and they're trying to make it harder to vote. But if we don't, then we're just making their job easier for them. It's easier to ignore us. And people, I remember seeing a wonderful advertisement.

• 53:29Speaker 04

  I don't know if it was 2016 or 2020, but it was a bunch of elderly European Americans, white people. And there's, I don't vote because I don't think there's a difference between the two parties. Or I don't vote because politicians can't be trusted. I don't vote because it's too much trouble. Any number of reasons. And the people in the commercial were like, good. Good. Because we vote and they will listen to us. So we have to vote. So politically, being engaged as much as you can, because the news cycle is exhausting and demoralizing.

• 54:10Speaker 04

  So I'm not saying you gotta listen to everything, but you do have to get engaged. You send your money where it can do the most good, whether that's locally or for a national campaign. I tend to support people in Ohio. I know I have colleagues who are running for office around the country, but I tend to put my money locally. And psychologically and emotionally, we have to support each other. And we have to ensure that we do not become bitter and demoralized. Because right now, that is an easy place and space to be. There is a lot out there right now that tells us, damn, these people.

• 54:55Speaker 04

  There's a lot. Excuse my French. There's a lot. But we cannot.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  Give up and give in. And I remember I had doubts in 2016 about whether I could continue as a diplomat. And my, my younger brother told me to get over myself. Get over yourself, sister girl. And of course, madam and bastard is not used to be spoken to that way anymore. So, but siblings. And he said, Listen, do you think black folks in the State Department in the 60s and 70s and 80s were welcome, were supported, knew that there was a place for them? No, no. He said, if they could persevere sufficiently for you to get in and get where you got, then you need to put your big girl pants on, stay engaged,

• 55:45Speaker 04

  and support others. And that's what we're doing now. I think we're doing a pretty decent job of supporting each other. But we have to continue. I saw something on the news the other day of a woman who put out over 300 job applications and hasn't found work yet. It's tough. It's tough, but we can help each other. And that emotional support is just as important as any other.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  It has been such a pleasure to chat with you, Gina. Is there a website where we can stay connected with you or your LinkedIn you maybe would like to share?

• 56:23Speaker 04

  Oh, you'll definitely find me on LinkedIn. No, no, no. You'll find me. And I left my full-time job and now I have three, four, if you could count mentoring. I probably spend most of my time mentoring and career counseling others. I did that professionally for the three years I was out of government service. But I am a speaker. I'm a good one. And I absolutely, if you find me on LinkedIn and want to talk careers, particularly if it's in foreign policy, I would be more than willing. It's what I do. And, and it brings me joy

• 57:03Speaker 04

  because I think I sent to you a five questions, I think, from the Leadership Council on, for women in national security. And they asked me, how did I get my position? You know, what's my professional philosophy and things like that?

• 57:21Speaker 04

  And when I posted it with three words, pay it forward because that's our responsibility as we are in positions to have impact, to encourage, to inspire, to help, pull as we climb. So that's it. That's what I do. That's what I do.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Beautiful. We'll be sure to include that information in the show notes for anybody who wants to continue to connect with you. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  My pleasure.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  I'm so glad Ambassador Amber Crombie-Wen Stanley was able to join me for this wonderful conversation. To learn more about her and her work, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session471. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions and suggestions for the podcast? Drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at @therapyforblackgirls and join us in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind

• 58:36Speaker 00

  the scenes content, and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu, Tyree Rush, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

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