Session 470: Parasocial Relationships

What do we actually get from following someone who will never know we exist? Dr. Maia Niguel Hoskin has spent her career studying that question, and on this episode she breaks down parasocial relationships: the one-sided bonds we form with influencers, celebrities, and increasingly, AI. Dr. Joy and Dr. Hoskin trace how these relationships move differently for Black women, who are often expected to show up as the loyal supporter for a celebrity the same way they're expected to show up for everyone else in their lives. They use the backlash against the owner and founder of the global luxury fashion brand Hanifa, Anifa Mvuemba, as a case study in what happens when that loyalty curdles into an expectation that a small business owner can never have an off day, and they revisit the moment writers suggested Kanye West simply needed "a Black woman" instead of a therapist. Dr. Hoskin also shares her own boundary-setting story, stepping away from news and social media for nearly five months when her nervous system couldn't take any more, and explains why she's now teaching her counseling students about AI dependency in the same breath as social media addiction, including cases of people treating a chatbot like a romantic partner. The conversation closes on practical, no-platitude advice for knowing when a parasocial relationship has crossed the line from entertainment into something that's costing you. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon https://community.therapyforblackgirls.com/ community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@therapyforblackgirls. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls https://memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. https://www.sisterhoodheals.com/ Where to Find Our Guest Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/maiahoskin/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dr.maia_ Loyola Marymount University https://scholars.lmu.edu/en/persons/maia-hoskin/ Stay Connected​https://click.convertkit-mail.com/27uv20p9mpioh8edr34s8ug63w344hg/58hvh8ug08p6wzc6/dGhlcmFweWZvcmJsYWNrZ2lybHMuY29tb3JibGFja2dpcmxzLmNvbS9wYXRyZW9u Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop https://therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.instagram.com/therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls https://www.facebook.com/therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional.

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  Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 470 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation afterward from our sponsors.

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• 4:40Speaker 00

  Quick question. How many people do you check on every single day who have no idea you exist? Not your friends, not your family. I'm talking about the five accounts you go to before you even get out of bed. The influencer whose stories you watch before your coffee is done. The celebrity you genuinely fight somebody for online. My guest today studies exactly that. Dr. Maya Niguel-Hoskin is a professor at Loyola Marymount University and a Forbes contributor whose work sits at the intersection of mental health, social media, and identity. And she's here to talk about parasocial relationships. The one-sided bonds we build with influencers,

• 5:20Speaker 00

  celebrities, and yes, even AI. We get into why these relationships hit different for Black women specifically. What happened when owner and founder of the global luxury fashion brand Hanifa's small business got dragged online by people who swore they were ride or die? Why Dr. Hoskin had to take a five-month break from the news to protect her own nervous system? And the moment in her own research career when AI showed up as a relationship people are having, not just a tool people are using? This conversation might make you check your screen time. Press play and let's get into it.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Hoskin.

• 6:03Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm very excited to chat with you. This is a conversation I have been wanting to have for a very long time. So I'm really glad that we found you. So tell us a little bit about your work and your background in terms of framing around parasocial relationships.

• 6:20Speaker 06

  Absolutely. Well, I'm an assistant professor at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, and I'm in the counseling program. So students who are getting their master's degrees to become mental health therapists, school counselors, that whole deal. And I'm also a contributor for Forbes Women. And a lot of my editorial writing in my research centers around the intersections of mental health, popular culture, social media, and women, and relationships, right? And relationship dynamics. And with a lot of the research, and like I said, editorial writing, again, this topic of social media continues to come up and how it intersects and how we shape our own identity and how we look at other

• 7:03Speaker 06

  people and how then we build relationships with one another.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Hmm. So does it feel like it's particularly important to be paying attention to parasocial relationships right now?

• 7:13Speaker 06

  I think so, especially since social media has just taken off, right? And I think a lot of individuals are going to social media and looking to various types of influencers, whether it be fitness influencers or mental health experts, or even finance influencers or celebrities as their source for information, which could be a good thing, right? Which could be a beneficial thing, absolutely. It makes that information more accessible. But I think it's, as many benefits as parasocial relationships have, I think it's important to look at where some of the areas it can get a little bit more dicey with those types of relationships.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Hmm. So before we go too far into the conversation, I think it's important for us to give like a definition of what we're talking about when we are saying parasocial relationships. So what does that mean?

• 8:03Speaker 06

  Essentially, simply put, they're one-sided relationships, right? It's when we follow that lifestyle influencer or that fitness influencer who is in all be all, right? If we want to think about what are we going to wear this summer? What's a good way to tighten up our triceps, right? We know we go right to them, right? Or we have those five people who we go to on Instagram or on TikTok and we jot down notes, right? And we're fiercely loyal to them. But what makes them parasocial is they're often one-sided because we're following them, we're liking, we're commenting, and they don't know we're alive, which is okay, but that's what the nature of parasocial relationships are. They're often with a celebrity, a politician even, or influencer that's one-sided.

• 8:47Speaker 06

  So we are giving, we're giving, and we get some stuff in return, right? We get that education, we get that empowerment and those pieces, but often they're not following us back or liking our comments back, our posts back. So that's essentially what parasocial relationships are in a nutshell.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Hmm. And you know, it sounds like you've done a lot of work and research in this area. So what is the impact on our mental health when we do have these one-sided relationships with people typically on social media?

• 9:14Speaker 06

  Well, I would say parasocial relationships aren't inherently in and of themselves bad, right? We, as humans, all of us, we crave connection. We crave community, belonging, safety, identity, representation, right? And so in a lot of ways, parasocial relationships tell us less about the influencer or the celebrity or the politician and more about ourselves and what we need and what we're seeking, right? And so within that, they can provide encouragement and empowerment. They can provide information and education around certain topics, right?

• 9:56Speaker 06

  And so those are all the benefits that we get, that we walk away from engaging in parasocial relationships. Also, again, creating that connection, that community, increasing our self-esteem, things like that, even normalizing vulnerability, increasing the likelihood of help-seeking behavior, right? So these are all things that we can walk away with from engaging in parasocial relationships. That said, as I said before, they get a little tricky. In terms of mental health, we're putting our all into these individuals, right? We're putting our trust implicitly, right? For the most part, or in many cases. Let's talk about what's going on right now.

• 10:38Speaker 06

  Some of us know about the recent controversy over mental health experts saying they have certain credentials and there being controversy around, is this real? Are they telling the truth, right? And now their expertise and their credibility is put into question. And a lot of folks are feeling betrayed. They're like, listen, I trusted you, or I even paid my money to you, right? Because I found you on social media and now I come to find out that you might not be who you say you are, right? And so if a person is more apt to seek help, to become vulnerable based off of creating a relationship, for example, with an influencer in that situation, that could make them completely withdraw and turn within, right?

• 11:23Speaker 06

  And so that's one piece of it because you're implicitly putting your trust in this person and there's really no checks and balance systems in a lot of cases if that trust is being placed in the right direction. Another piece of it is for Black women in particular. We can get into the strong Black woman trope, right? We're often positioned and given the role of the supporter, the healer, the nurturer, the one who you're going to support your celebrity person, ride or die, no matter what, right? The hill, you're going to die for Beyonce, you're going to die for, it doesn't matter what's going on, right? And not to say that you shouldn't feel that way, but what ends up happening is it perpetuates

• 12:08Speaker 06

  and creates a normalization of us taking on this role of pouring, pouring, pouring into people and supporting people who aren't necessarily reciprocating the same. I was just talking to someone about when Kanye West was having, when he was first having some of his public manic episodes and, you know, issue of mental health was coming up and bipolar two disorder and so on and so forth. And I remember several think pieces saying Kanye West needs a Black woman. And I thought, this is strange. No, he does not need a Black woman. He needs a good therapist and a psychiatrist and to get somewhere and sit down and chill out for a little bit, right? But a Black woman is not the answer, right? A Black woman's support and love is not always the answer.

• 12:51Speaker 06

  And sometimes it is, but when that expectation and role is placed on us and we then internalize that, that can add on to that weight when we feel like we have to be the ride or die, right? So those are just some of the mental health aspects or implications of parasocial relationships.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  So Dr. Hoskin, I'm curious to hear more about like the history of this because in the research, and definitely not as extensive as what I'm sure you've done. It feels like the idea of parasocial relationships really started with TV and movie characters, right? Like you feel fiercely attached to like Issa from Insecure, right? So it feels like parasocial relationships kind of have a history in entertainment in some ways. And they have now transferred to social media. But the difference, it feels like, is that the characters were characters, right? Like there was no interaction beyond you maybe watching your favorite movie thousands of times, right? It has transitioned to these platforms where these are actual real people. And so what's the difference?

• 13:51Speaker 00

  It feels like there's a different flavor to what we're talking about with characters versus like real people who are influencers and people with a large platforms.

• 13:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, when we're watching the haves and have nots, I don't know, right? Real Housewives, I know, whatever. Even though Real Housewives is supposed to be a reality, it's still on TV, right? So I think when we watch film and television, there's a sense in the background, subconsciously, we know this is not real, or even if it's reality, it could very well not be all the way real, right? With social media, these are real people. And in a lot of cases, especially when we talk about some lifestyle influencers, they present as they're showing all aspects of their life. From the moment they wake up, their morning routine, when they're picking up their kiddos, when they're packing lunch, when they're going on date night, get ready with me, their nighttime routine, when they're going to workout.

• 14:44Speaker 06

  It's like constant, right? And these images are accessible 24/7. So yeah, you could watch the same movie over and over again, but you know what to expect, right? And it's kind of like over and over and over. With an influencer or even a celebrity who documents a large portion of their life on social media, it's always something new, right? It's always tantalizing the senses. It's building our adrenaline, right? And it's creating that connection, right? If they open up, I remember I was just with my mother. We were driving down the freeway and she was on Instagram. And she, someone I guess on Instagram was, or maybe it was TikTok, I'm not sure. But they were crying because they didn't pass the bar exam. And she said, this is so odd, a baby boomer.

• 15:28Speaker 06

  Why would this person record themselves while they are crying over not passing the bar exam?

• 15:36Speaker 06

  Well, I don't know why they did it, but advantage to them is, you know, likes, engagement, all these pieces. But on the other end, right, on their followers end, they feel connected, right? Oh, my gosh, this person being vulnerable with me. They just had this huge disappointment. They didn't pass the bar exam. Oh, my gosh. Or I didn't pass the bar exam either. Wow. Now I feel heavily connected to this person. And that is everywhere, all throughout social media. So that increases the potential for this like heavier attachment in these relationships to become stronger. And for people's loyalty and connection with these individuals to feel more fierce and more severe because they're constantly accessible.

• 16:21Speaker 06

  The emotions are higher. The content or the images are presented as realer or more rooted in reality. And in a lot of cases, they're positioned in a way so that people do feel like they can relate to them, right? That's the whole name of the game. And so it's increasing kind of the prevalence of these connections and it's creating more in-depth connections when they are created, I think.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  But still one-sided, right?

• 16:48Speaker 06

  It's still one-sided nonetheless. Absolutely. Even if your favorite influencer happens to follow you back, right? It's still very much one-sided. That doesn't mean you're gonna go to dinner with them tomorrow night, right? So it's still this one-sided relationship.

• 17:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about like black women who have some of these large platforms, right? So you already mentioned kind of Beyonce and Rihanna and celebrities, you know, the barbs who kind of have these fandoms around celebrities. But I think even people who are not necessarily like celebrities in those traditional senses. We see even some of the reality TV stars like Alandria from Love Island or Ciara from Summer House, right? Like all of these conversations that often come about as they have appeared on these shows, but then we get wrapped up in their storylines. And then when they move out of these for Alandria, like when she's off the island, or when Ciara has left the house, then like they get back onto their social media and realize, oh, my gosh, like all of this stuff has unfolded. And they've both made comments about feeling like they had

• 17:44Speaker 00

  a certain responsibility as black women with these kinds of platforms. Can you talk about like the responsibility or the pressure that sometimes exists when you are a black woman who amasses this kind of a platform?

• 17:56Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely. So that almost speaks to what I was saying in terms of the roles and responsibilities that are passed off or delegated to Black women, but flipped, right? So not as the fan or me, right? But the influencer, right? And so that is where they might be scrutinized even more, where there might be a higher expectation for them to utilize their platforms in certain ways. There have been certain, I know, certain influencers in the makeup space and the wellness space who have gotten a lot of flak from their followers for not speaking out during Black Lives Matter, that type of thing.

• 18:39Speaker 06

  And one of the individuals shot back, like, I have my beliefs I support in the ways that I support, but I choose to have that support be private and not document that. And why are you all not expecting the same out of other influencers in that same way? And so I do think that when it comes to Black women influencers, there is more of this pressure of, okay, now what are they going to say to that? How are they going to respond to this? This law just got passed. Now what are their responses going to be? You know, this president just got elected. Now what are they going to say? And then if they don't say anything, then there's this automatic defensiveness in this line of questioning and then even assuming where they might stand in certain areas, especially when it comes to politics and what's going on.

• 19:23Speaker 06

  And I think this is also exacerbated because we already have that again with these responsibilities that are put on Black women. But I think because we live in such sensitive times right now and such tumultuous and divisive times right now, folks rightly or wrongly are looking for answers. They're looking for support. They're looking for folks that feel like will fight for them and that who will advocate for them and who better to advocate for them than their favorite influencer, who they've been following for the last five, six years and who have supported through thick and thin, right? So now they feel like I've invested in you. So now I want you to support what I support, right? Now I want you to respond in this way to this issue that might disenfranchise

• 20:05Speaker 06

  or further marginalize people who look like you and me. And so in some ways, it is an unfair expectation because a person can believe and feel however they choose and they can demonstrate those beliefs and those feelings however they choose. But there also is some validity to it because Folks feel like they've invested, right? They've invested in these people. But I do think sometimes it can get overboard, right? And there is an inequitable, right? There's an equitable expectation level for Black women influencers in particular.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Hmm. It feels like we saw an example of this, what you're talking about earlier this year with the designer Hanifa from the Hanifa brand. So I love to hear your thoughts on that because it does feel like, you know, Black women, I think, were largely like supporters of this brand. But then, you know, there were some customer service issues, it sounds like, and like you call it supply and demand, like the stock was not held up. And then people were upset that they didn't get emails and those kinds of things. And it does feel like that became this like public dragging, so to speak, of this Black woman who many people felt like they had supported. So it sounds like a lot of what you're talking about played out in that situation.

• 21:17Speaker 06

  Absolutely, absolutely. I love Hanifa.

• 21:22Speaker 06

  I bought many pieces from her. So I love the brand. I love the brand. So and it was unfortunate for me because we often see other brands that have different issues, you know, with productivity, quality, their turnaround, how quickly you'll get your items after you place the order. And mum's word, folks will buy stuff from Shein. That's just an example. And it might take two months to get a Fashion Nova. It might take them five months to get, right? I mean, they might complain internally. They might create a Reddit thread, but not drag the company like they do Hanifa.

• 21:59Speaker 06

  And so I think there's this piece again where we kind of lose our ability to have grace. And it's almost kind of this dehumanization piece, right? And I think that comes with the strong Black woman trope of no, you're just supposed to produce, produce, produce, produce. And that's it. There is no space for, there was a glitch. There is no space for a large shipment didn't come in when you expected that it would, right? There is no space for that. Within that, in that specific situation, I felt like some humanity. Was lost and I think a lot of folks forgot, you know, this is still a small business.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  It's not, I don't know, Gucci, right? This is not some large mega conglomerate with thousands of employees and staffers and warehouses all over the country, right? This is still a small business trying to maintain and trying to do the best by their customers as possible. And so I do think that there was a piece where there might not have been as much grace given as what could have been.

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think in the fallout of that, we saw lots of other entrepreneurs kind of come online, talking about their own struggles with building their businesses and being afraid of being the next one. Right? Like, oh, my gosh, I'm afraid to make mistakes in my business because, you know, maybe something like this could happen. Could you talk about like the ways that these parasocial relationships become internalized, I think, both for the person who's on the receiving side of the parasocial relationship and the fan, so to speak?

• 23:32Speaker 06

  Right. Well, on the receiving side, I think, you know, we see it. I just went to an event a couple of weeks ago and I mean, I'm telling you, they put on the rich. They had huge gift bags and it was largely content creators and influencers and I don't think of myself as either. So I was like, why am I here? But I was very honored and very flattered to be there. And I mean, there were gift bags before you got there, they were mailed to you. There were gift bags given to you when you got there. I mean, five course amazing meal. They even sent car service to pick you up and take you to the event, right? And so I see a lot of cases where influencers and brands and small businesses see the value

• 24:15Speaker 06

  of their supporters and their followers, right? And they're really like, we need to make an investment, just like we would invest in a commercial. Scratch that. We need to put that, those funds in this area. But within that, because they see that power and because they see that their fan base or their supporters are huge and instrumental to their brand, whatever that brand may be, then there's another pressure, right? Uh, what do I say about this? How do I handle that? What do I think my fans want to see? More of and constantly kind of pushing, pushing, pushing. I could never be an influencer or a content creator. I see my best friend has a small business and I see all that she does with her team just on the social media.

• 24:58Speaker 06

  And the reels, the stories, I'm just like, and it's taken two, three hours to make one reel. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is insanity, right? This is hard work, hard work. You see the influencers who apologize, I'm so sorry you all, I didn't post yesterday. You know, feeling they have to apologize just for one day of taking a self-care day or because they've gotten sick or something like that. And so you definitely see the internalized pressure within that. And then on the flip side with supporters, yeah, again, I think that internalized pressure comes into, especially like I said, with black women in particular, feeling like they have to support that person no matter what, right?

• 25:39Speaker 06

  No matter if that person is right or wrong, if they mess up or not. So on the flip side, even with the Hanifa fallout, there were a lot of loyal folks that are like, listen, I don't care what y'all say. I'm a ride or die for Hanifa. And yeah, my order was, you know, too much late, but these are my people and I've supported them over the years and I'm going to continue to support them. So, you know, there's also that on the flip side, that internalized pressure. And even so, not with Hanifa, but in other cases where a person feels the need to support a person to their own detriment. Right? When they're getting in arguments with other people on social media about that person in a way that's anxiety producing, right?

• 26:24Speaker 06

  Because they feel like now they have to defend that person, that they have some type of moral obligation to that person. That's when we see it kind of going, that internalization, again, like I said, getting a little tricky and then implicating and impacting mental health in that way.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. More from our conversation after the break.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune in to find out.

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  Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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  Keeping your money safe from fraud deserves to be a priority, and Cash App treats it that way. With security lock, Cash App requires a successful Face ID or biometric authentication to access your account. It's like your money is protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if your phone is lost or stolen. Plus, if you're about to send money to someone new and Cash App notices something looks a little bit off or that you might be falling for a scam, it'll send you a warning before the money is sent to confirm that everything looks right. Download Cash App and spend with peace of mind today. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners,

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  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  You know, it does very much feel like this double edged sword, right? I mean, because all of the marketing will tell you that, you know, the things that drive sales are like relatability, you know, allowing your customers and your community to kind of feel like they know you, right? So really leaning into the parasocialness of these relationships. But as you talked about, like, there's also a lot that comes with that, right? And I think they can be very lucrative, right? Like, when people feel like you're their BFF, like, they're more likely to buy whatever lipstick shade you shared, or people are likely to lean into that. So there is a reason, I think, why people would want to foster this kind of relationship with their audience. But like you mentioned, there's also this other piece. So what is the line, right?

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Like, is there a way to kind of navigate this where you're aware of, like, okay, I don't want to go too far with this, but I also, like, this is kind of my business, right? Like, how do you navigate that?

• 30:51Speaker 06

  So, yeah, you definitely want to take those pieces into consideration, those variables of, okay, this is what my supporters want to see. This is what they need to see. This is what, you know, benefits them, right? Because inevitably, you are providing a service, right? Whether you are a clothing brand or you're a lifestyle influencer, you're providing some type of service where people are walking away with something, right? However...

• 31:18Speaker 06

  It goes back to your previous question. When you see that it's impacting your mental health or compromising your character or who you are, right? When you are now making decisions in a way that you find unethical or going in a direction that you wouldn't normally go in with regard to your character and what you believe in and your belief system. That is when I think the line needs to be drawn of like, you know, I know they might want to see this, but I'm not willing to do that. Right? I know that this might make me go viral, but I'm not willing to do that. That's just a line I'm not willing to cross. And I think that is sometimes can get murky for a lot of folks,

• 32:00Speaker 06

  especially as social media has become increasingly more pervasive. And individuals on social media are now wanting to see more and more and more outrageous, controversial things to kind of quench their thirst. But I think drawing that line of when you see that you are acting in ways that are uncharacteristic of who you truly are, that is right, or it's causing you significant distress outside of the normal entrepreneurial influencer type stress. I think that's where the line should be drawn. And likewise, for supporters and followers, I think the same can be true. Number one, well, I know for Apple iPhone, I'm not sure for Android users,

• 32:45Speaker 06

  but you have the ability to see how many hours you're on social media or you're on your phone or you're on your internet and you can get a full on report. And I encourage people to look at that report, to utilize that feature, because if you see that you are on social media, you know, everyone has a different number, but I would say more than like four to six hours a day and that's even a lot. You might want to consider bringing that back, right? Because we know that social media addiction is real, right? Influencer or not. So that is definitely when you constantly find yourself scrolling. You know, I know we've all gone out to dinner and we'll look over at the table next to us and everyone's on their phone.

• 33:27Speaker 06

  Right. No one's talking. They're just eating and on their phone scrolling, right? When we get to that space, it might be time to kind of reconsider our overall social media usage because that's at the root of this. That is really, our social relationships are kind of a symptom of the root cause. The root cause is our heavy engagement and our addiction to social media. So let's be clear about that. So we bring that back. Then I think that then indirectly helps us address the symptom. But then once we do get on social media to address that, again, if we're arguing with folks in comments, if we're having negative emotional reactions to things,

• 34:10Speaker 06

  if we're getting visibly upset with the influencers that we're following because they didn't do or they didn't say what we wanted them to say, instead of just saying, I don't like that they didn't do that, or I don't like that they did do that. Unfollow, right? If we're having like this visceral response, that is when we need to draw the line, right? We need to keep in mind that social media should be used for entertainment purposes. Point blank in this story. So as a mother of three, you know, I have an eight-year-old, a three-year-old and a one-year-old. So I follow tons of lifestyle influencers who have kids as well. And sometimes they'll post things that I can connect with about being a mom, about being a partner, about being, you know, a full-time working mother and all those pieces.

• 34:55Speaker 06

  And sometimes, you know, certain posts will make me tear up and because that connection is so real to what they're talking about. But at the same time, make no mistakes about it. I'm not going to argue over them. I'm not going to fight over them, right? If they say something that is vastly opposed to my core beliefs, I have no problem in following them. I have before, right? So because at the end of the day, although there is some connection and I do enjoy watching their content, in the back of my head, I still acknowledge this is for entertainment purposes only, right? And even when I'm getting information, whether it be fitness or nutrition, I'm also doing the research outside of what they're telling me to verify what they're saying is actually true and what I need to be following, right?

• 35:40Speaker 06

  So I think keeping our feet firmly grounded and grounded in reality is really key. And if we find ourselves not doing so, again, that's where we need to draw the line.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  You know, you started off this conversation really talking about like the importance of connection and like how that drives so much of our social media usage. And you've mentioned the word connection several times, right? And I also see, and I think there is some validity to the ways that we feel connected to other people online. And I think we often get such a strong dose of like a dopamine hit. And like, it really lights up all those parts of our brain that make us feel connected, that it often makes us feel as though, oh, I don't actually need to do anything with people in real life because I've gotten all of these needs met online. Which I think, you know, that can be some of your connection. But I do worry that it has gone too far, that we've gotten so much of this from online that we are not actually paying attention to in-real-life connections.

• 36:40Speaker 06

  Absolutely, absolutely. There are some influencers, ironically, who looked at the impact of this, and researchers as well, who looked at the impact of this on white males, right? And especially white males and Gen Z who have kind of just gone inward and just stay on social media and on video games. And that is their central spaces of socialization and connection with other people and the mental health implications of that. And also, and this has really emerged in terms of looking at politics

• 37:21Speaker 06

  and how information around politics is shared in various communities. And it also how resentment and anger about certain socio-cultural, socio-political things that are going on in our world are kind of shared in these echo chambers, right? And so there's definitely a larger conversation to be had, even outside of just white males in particular, of What's happening to us, right? We're getting programmed where all we know how to do is comment, but we don't know how to actually communicate, right? We're raising children and future generations who do not know how to communicate with their professors

• 38:02Speaker 06

  or their teachers in professional ways because they're so used to being on social media. Kids aren't going outside and playing. We live in a neighborhood where kids actually play. And whenever someone comes and visits us, they say, wow, kids in your neighborhood are actually in the street playing. You rarely see that, right? Because either kids are on playdates, they're in some type of sports or extracurricular activity, or they're on social media a lot of times, right? And they're interacting with their peers in those ways, predominantly social media. They're not outside playing. So we lose some of that. And I feel like, and there's a lot of research to this point, but I feel like the pandemic played a huge role in assisting or increasing the likelihood that we all kind of just move, we go in, right?

• 38:46Speaker 06

  We turn inward and we look to social media for those connections and those relationships. And we've actually lost a piece of that. So in some respects, yes, it's amazing for connection in those areas. But again, it goes back to those boundaries, right? Or where do you draw the line? If you find that your only source of communication and connection and community is online, then that might be a sign of, okay, maybe I need to move it over here in this direction and actually reach out and to other groups, right? Whether it be a walking group, whether it be Bible study, what have you, to create outside connection. Because I do feel like that definitely is a potential. And I think a lot of people are kind of dealing with implications of that right now,

• 39:31Speaker 06

  especially children and younger folks.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  You mentioned that a lot of the research has been done on white males. I mean, a lot of research is done on white males, but in this situation in particular.

• 39:40Speaker 06

  Whether on public or not.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Right, right. And you talked about like the strong black woman trope. So I imagine that is one way that you would imagine. Like if this research was done on black women, this would maybe be a part of what you'd be interested in finding or be curious about what you would find as it relates to this trope? Are there other things that you think we might find? Or you'd be curious about if we were looking at black women as a group and our relationship to like influencers and our behavior online?

• 40:06Speaker 06

  I'm actually currently working on a study right now that looks at black women within the current socio-political climate within the context of social media and AI.

• 40:18Speaker 06

  And even looking at gifs and memes and how gifs and memes are portray black women, right? And how that then shapes how we look at ourselves. So not only how other people look at us, but how we look at ourselves and how we show up to the world, right? And then how that all ties in to our current, you know, socio-political climate and what's going on in politics right now and the value that we ultimately place on ourselves and how we treat ourselves and how we care for ourselves. And like I said, the type of grace that we show ourselves and how we should show up in the world. I, I think it largely comes down to identity. I think there's a lot of confusion around identity.

• 41:03Speaker 06

  On one hand, you had Felicia Rashad as Claire Huxtable, but then a little few years later, you also had Little Kim and Foxy Brown, right? And those are two polar opposites, but you understood both were entertainment, but they both kind of counteracted and balanced one another, right? Right now, I don't think black women have the balance. I think that we're largely seeing one prototype, right? Or monolith of what black women look like on the large scale, right? On the large scale in mainstream media and mainstream television and mainstream film. The posts that actually go viral on social media more than others, right?

• 41:48Speaker 06

  And so I think there's a lot to be said about how that is impacting how women are identifying themselves and shaping themselves and ultimately how they view themselves. Because like I said earlier, representation does matter. And I don't know that we have as much robust representation on social media, even like where I said, even when it comes down to memes and gifs as, let's say, white women, right?

• 42:11Speaker 00

  So you mentioned that even, you know, when you're looking at like the parenting influences online and like people, other moms that you follow, you're taking the information, but also then going to research it for yourself, vetting kind of the information. And I think that that is a very wise strategy, right? Can you talk more about like media literacy is basically what you're talking about? Can you talk more about like some of those strategies that we can employ to make sure that we are getting credible information from maybe some of our favorite online influencers?

• 42:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. So again, remembering that things are entertainment. Yes, definitely going back and doing the research on your own. And also being kind with yourself with that. You might not have to research every little thing you come in contact with. Some things are just very straightforward and they just are what they are. And it's kind of common sense. So also having some grace with yourself and being smart about that as well. Going back to the boundary piece, right? If this is doing anything to your mental health that is not serving you, right? So if your level of engagement on social media or with an influencer or a celebrity, or even politically is affecting you in a way that does not serve you, take a step back.

• 43:21Speaker 06

  Just last summer, with everything that was going on politically, I had to take a step back. I did not go on social media and I didn't watch news. And I am someone who is an avid news watcher. Like literally all day long, I watched the news. But I stopped for about four months, maybe five, because it was just too much. It was just too much for me and it impacted my writing. It impacted my research at the time. But I needed to take that time away because I was just, my nervous system was completely dysregulated. And so I would say that's huge when you find that your nervous system is shot, right? That you're experiencing dysregulation. It is time to take a step back. Listening to yourself, listening to your body, listening to your nervous system.

• 44:04Speaker 06

  And having balance, right? And so that kind of feeds into some of these other pieces. Having balance outside of social media, having activities and hobbies, interests outside of social media that anchor you and that bring you joy, that bring you peace. Instead of picking up, we know we love to scroll on social media right before going to bed. That's probably not the best idea. We know research tells us you should not watch TV or be on social media at least 30 minutes before going to bed anyway, right? But if you want to do something to kind of unwind, you know, right before bed or before that 30 minutes prior to bed, pick up a book, right? Pick up a book. If you're not in a book's journal, right? Find something to do, meditate, right?

• 44:50Speaker 06

  Pray, right? But find something that will anchor you, that will ground you, that will calm your nervous system before going to bed. That does not have anything to do with social media. So I, I think a large part of this is about establishing boundaries. Establishing boundaries between yourself and social media and really being clear in your mind that this is for entertainment, this is only to enrich my life, this is only to add to my life and to serve me, not to cause me stress, not to cause me strain, but social media and influencers and celebrities alike. So I think those are the main pieces to keep in mind when navigating social media and interacting with our faves when it comes to influencers and celebrities and the like.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  More from our conversation after the break.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other? Tune

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  in to find out. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 47:43Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 48:01Speaker 07

  My small experience with the discrepancy in the business of music made me angry in the best way, and I wanted to, I wanted to finish. So I started really leaning into my therapy, trying to get down to like, what matters now? Somewhere, Miguelito felt like he didn't have a place to say how he felt. And music was the place that I went to, to say how I felt.

• 48:24Speaker 04

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  I really appreciate what you had to say about like, giving ourselves grace and being patient with ourselves. Because just, I think about the ways that we are talking about, like, our relationship to social media. And it is largely something that should be considered similar to a substance. Right? Like, all of the addictive kinds of things. And, you know, all the people who are like on payroll at social media companies, whose full job is to make sure that you stay on there the longest, right? I think even as you're mentioning this, I think it can be really hard to like, do some of these things, like, not look at it right before bed. Like, we really are in a chokehold in a lot of ways in our relationship to social media.

• 49:13Speaker 06

  Absolutely. There are psychologists on Meta's payroll who study this, who study how do we get people coming back, right? What algorithms do we push? What algorithms to certain segments of users do we push that they want to see? Right? And that's their job to keep us locked in and to keep that addiction going. And yes, social media addiction is very real. Whether it be gaming, whether it be Instagram and so forth, whether it be YouTube, that's all social media, right? I teach an addictions and counseling course frequently. In fact, I'm going to be teaching one in the fall. And we talked for two weeks about social media addiction. Just because I feel like in some cases,

• 49:58Speaker 06

  it's something that my students can relate to more than, let's say, an addiction to an opioid. Right? Even though that is very real and a necessary topic. But social media is also just as real and also just as necessary to talk about. Because it is real and we're seeing it among younger and younger and younger and younger folks. My one-year-old, she will be two soon, but she's like fighting me for my phone. Because there's something about those images and those colors. And because she's seeing her older sister on her iPad and things like that. We see kids, they just zone out and they become zombies when they're on social media. There's a lot of research telling, number one, to limit kids' social media usage to begin with. But if they are going to watch social media,

• 50:42Speaker 06

  making sure that the reels and the videos that they're watching are over three minutes long. So there are these implications where we see these, these pieces in, you know, in social media where people are becoming addicted. And that addiction, and that crutch is developing at earlier and earlier stages to the point where they don't know how to communicate or they're not comfortable creating connection outside of social media, like what we were talking about before.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. So I'm curious to hear more because I am sure the ways that you and I both were in our like counselor training programs, like the things we talked about, some of that is still intact, but we definitely did not have conversations about social media addiction when I was becoming a therapist. So I'm curious to hear what other kinds of like technology infused kinds of conversations are we talking about, like trainees and new therapists to be that maybe didn't exist like five to 10 years ago?

• 51:36Speaker 06

  AI. Chat GPT, Claude, whatever, AI is huge, huge. And not just from, I mean, from a writing perspective, but more so from a thinking perspective. Where individuals are losing their ability to analytically and critically think without the assistance of AI. I know people who, it's hard for them to construct text messages if there's a conflict without the use of AI. And so we talk a lot about that. So when we talk about social media, AI is typically the conversation that we have.

• 52:17Speaker 06

  The following week, it's kind of in that same unit of content that we cover in class in addiction. Because the use of AI can create an addiction in and of itself, right? Again, where you feel like you cannot communicate or you cannot think without this resource or this assistance. And then it gets to a point where it becomes increasingly hard for you to do so. Because now your brain has become so used to picking up the phone or opening up your laptop and going on ChatGPT or Claude. To help you think through a problem, just an everyday problem, or how you're going to deal with something with your boss, or how you're going to write a letter, or how you're going to even write, like I said, a text message.

• 53:02Speaker 06

  What are you going to say in an interview? It was interesting, we were interviewing prospective students not too long ago, well, it's fine, it'd been a year ago. We could tell that the person we were interviewing was utilizing AI to help them throughout the interview. So we kind of threw them a curve ball and they were just completely just lost. They were unable to recover from that. I mean, I think this just really speaks to the pervasiveness of AI and there's a lot of, you know, I guess beneficial things to AI if used responsibly. But like with social media, responsibility is a slippery slope for folks sometimes and can become detrimental.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  What do you think, and this is something I am also just enormously fascinated with because it just feels like there are just so many like dark rabbit holes to go down with this AI situation and how it impacts our mental health. But you know, like I'm thinking about like the example you just gave us, right? Like somebody who's preparing for like a counseling program, like grad school interview. Historically, that would likely be something you would Google, right? And like get some tips, maybe some testimonies from previous students and like you would use that to inform the way you show up for your own interview, right? But it feels like there's something that feels like so sticky about AI that it's like you didn't just use it to like help you prepare, like you're actively using it as a part of the interview. Like, do you have any ideas about why you think that is? Like, because

• 54:30Speaker 00

  in my mind, it feels like, oh, you could have just Googled that and you would have gotten like some blog posts to read, like you could have prepared yourself to show up. But this feels very different, like the relationship people have with AI versus just like Googling something. Do you have any ideas about what that might be?

• 54:44Speaker 06

  So the first thing I think is the difference is, let's say I have a job interview. I most certainly will Google and research the heck out of whatever so I can be better prepared, right? And I'm going to make notes and I'm going to rehearse and I'm going to do all the things that we should do when we're preparing for an interview that we really care about. The distinction is, I'm not then utilizing a continuous resource to help me think through things throughout the interview process. So I've created these notes, I've kind of used them to help me, and then we're done. And so any questions are out of the ordinary

• 55:23Speaker 06

  or that might deviate from that research that I've done. Now, I can pivot, I can shift, and I can critically think and I can access my knowledge, I can access my skills and my expertise to answer those questions, hopefully, right? The difference with AI is if a person has the ability and they're on a Zoom meeting or interview, they could potentially hurry up and Ask a question on the spot. So it takes that responsibility off of them of being able to pivot. We know the brain is a muscle, right? And so if we don't use it, we lose it. So then we start to rely on this resource when we need to pivot and think on our feet and think critically

• 56:03Speaker 06

  at the drop of a hat, because now we've relying during that interview on this resource to help us. Also, I think the distinction is, and I actually just wrote an article in Forbes about this on Forbes and Medium, about the relationships that individuals are creating with AI. So again, not just becoming dependent in terms of, you know, help me figure out, you know, how to navigate this conflict with my husband, but you are my husband. Right? And that is actually a thing. So they utilize this resource so much that they feel like this is another person. They forget that this is basically a computer. This is not a human being.

• 56:48Speaker 06

  And they create a relationship and they call this person their partner. There are documented cases of this. Now, we can also argue that there might be some other mental health implications for individuals who blur the line that dramatically. But that's an extreme situation, but there are similar situations where they might not call this person their boyfriend, their girlfriend, their partner. But they go to them in the same way, right? They utilize them and rely on them just in the same way. And that's very different from doing a Google search.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, so more to come clearly on that conversation.

• 57:24Speaker 06

  Oh, my gosh.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  It's rapidly evolving.

• 57:27Speaker 06

  Rapidly evolving. And as time goes on, AI will be able to do more and we'll just see how we, as a people, respond and, you know, yeah.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:39Speaker 06

  It's crazy.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  So as we wrap up, Dr. Haskin, what do you think parasocial relationships can tell us about our relationships in real life?

• 57:48Speaker 06

  Oh, some of them need work, I think. Some of them do. Yeah, some of them do. I think we need to go back to the basics and go back to, you know, I'm an eighties baby. So go back to the eighties. There is this phone called a tin can. On my mom friends, like, oh, so and so got a tin can, you know, so a tin can is like a landline phone. And so who would have thought that this idea would be making money when landline phones have been around since, right? So it's crazy, but it's this new thing and everyone like, oh, let me get a tin can. Mine's coming in June. What's your phone number? You know, all this for the kids. But it's some of that, right? This idea of just getting back to the basics, taking it back, going back pre pandemic.

• 58:32Speaker 06

  Because our relationships are suffering, right? Teaching kids positive conflict resolution with one another. A friend of mine got our oldest daughter a book on, and she's eight, a book on how to work out conflict with your friends. And we started reading it because now she and her little girlfriends are having little fights and little things, you know, right? But that's what this is about, right? Like, how do you talk it out? How do you go up to someone and make friends? Again, these basic cardinal skills that we were all taught as kids. How do you say, hi, my name is, can I play with you? Like back to the basics, right? Because we've lost that, we've lost that. So again, there are benefits.

• 59:12Speaker 06

  They can help individuals who might have challenges in the area of being a little bit more outgoing or extroverted. And you know, social media may help them in those ways, build their self-esteem, build their self-confidence, help them develop talking points so that they do feel a little bit more comfortable going out, you know, developing and creating those connections and those relationships. So it could definitely work out in a positive way in that way. However, as we said earlier, if, if not careful, right? And if we don't have boundaries in place, it is a slippery slope where, you know, we can lose sight of those connections and those relationships and our ability to connect and even our desire to want to connect with people.

• 59:56Speaker 06

  Because now we feel like we are connecting with influencers or AI or whatever else. But in this case, personal relationships with influencers or celebrities. Yeah, so. Both ways, but again, I think that there is some overall work that we need to do a little bit.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. So Dr. Hoskin, this has been so great to chat with you. Where can we stay connected with you and read the new pieces that you have? Come, you know, follow the research that you said you're doing. What's your website as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?

• 1:00:25Speaker 06

  You know what? The best way to find me is Forbes Women. Forbes Women, and like I said, I know, like, so just go to Forbes, go to leadership and then Forbes Women. But if you even just Google Maya Hoskin Forbes, all my stuff comes up. And like I said, I'm far from an influencer or a creator, and so I need to do better. I need to create a website. Can you believe that I'm so, so much in the dark age? I don't have a website. So Dr. Joy, you have put that at the front of my to-do list. I'm going to create a website.

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:52Speaker 06

  Crazy. But yeah, definitely Forbes. That would be the best place to find me. Yes. And you can contact me, you know, leave comments on my, on my articles and everything.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  Perfect. Well, make sure to include links to some of your pieces from Forbes in our show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I appreciate it.

• 1:01:08Speaker 06

  Thank you for having me, Dr. Joy. It's been a blast.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  I'm so glad Dr. Hoskin was able to join me for this incredible conversation. To learn more about her and her work, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com/session470. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have thoughts about topics we should discuss, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at @therapyforblackgirls

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  and come on over and join us in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:02:57Speaker 05

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• 1:03:24Speaker 02

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• 1:04:01Speaker 01

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