Session 139: Gracie Abrams

We're DM Warriors... Thank you Poppi for sponsoring this episode! https://drinkpoppi.com/ Thank you to Booking.com for sponsoring today’s episode! Find exactly what you’re Booking for at ⁠https://www.booking.com⁠ Use my code for 10% off your next SeatGeek order*:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/THERAPUSS⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $25 discount Tell Me What's Wrong at ⁠ passthatpuss.com Follow Gracie! https://shop.gracieabrams.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopAEPwj2HtJxnCiLZDiEaM9ZIGUchOkEs_UfpV22-REfkX0qN9S Follow Me! Instagram | @passthatpuss TikTok | @octopusslover8 Listen to "THERAPUSS" Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/1BHDdC0OVuHqZ706FobfOF ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/therapuss-with-jake-shane/id1723626781⁠⁠ Amazon Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/93117357-1f23-46e1-8f26-88f5182a68b8/therapuss-with-jake-shane⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Hi pussies, welcome back to Therapuss. And tonight, we have on Gracie Abrams. Gracie Abrams has been someone that I've wanted on this show since it began. And so I am so grateful and excited to have finally had her on. Her new album, Daughter from Hell, I just think is fantastic. And I'm so excited to see it live. She is going on the Look at My Life Tour, starting December 2nd, 2026, which I must see. She is such a wonderful person. But she, in the episode, told me she'd bring me books. And I was like, okay, sure. And then these books right here are from her, I got a day later. She is so wonderful.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Getting to talk to her about this art that has kind of helped soundtrack my entire twenties was such a dream come true. And she's so wonderful and so kind and so funny. And I'm so excited for you guys to see it. Gracie, I love you. Go listen to Daughter from Hell and go get tickets to the Look at My Life Tour now. Enjoy the episode pussies, I love you.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  You know you're the most requested guest of all time?

• 1:51Speaker 02

  That has to be a lie.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Well, I'm honored and thank you for having me in your home.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  I'm so excited for you to be here.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  So grateful to be here.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Well, everyone, Gracie Abrams is here. Yay.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Your new album is amazing.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  I got to listen to the whole thing.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  You got the whole thing?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  I got the whole thing.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Great, okay, that's so good.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I don't know if I can say that any of the track titles besides Hit the Wall.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Well, you can to me. I don't know when this is coming out.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  When is this coming out?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  So I can?

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yes, we can talk about everything.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Look at My Life.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  My favorite.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Thank you. She gets name checked in it and she still hasn't even heard it.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  You've never heard it?

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Not yet.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable. I was dancing in my bathroom to it today.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, thank you. I really did not like that song.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Why?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Till recently. Because I wrote it when I was feeling the way that the song.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  It's not, yeah. Not feeling good.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Says, not feeling good. And, um, and it was just, I have like recency bias, I think, with writing. And I, sometimes after writing something, I have to put it away for a while and not acknowledge that it exists. And Aaron was like, I think this song is really great, like maybe revisit. I was like, I cannot possibly. And it took like six months till I could hear it again and not want to kind of like rip my eyeballs out. You know what I mean? Where you kind of like have that, like I can't think, you know? But I'm very glad that it resurfaced and.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  What other songs did you feel that way about that you ended up putting out?

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Oh, like in previous?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Like, like, a whole bunch, for sure. This album to me, last, well, hmm, you know, there's a few, there are a few that I've expressed like my kind of grievances towards that, that, that at shows, um, my audience will like, it's basically like, uh, the equivalent of someone like standing outside your house with like a pitchfork and like torches being like, play it.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  I'm like, okay, totally. So like Mess It Up was one that I really, you know? But I think now I have a, like a fondness for everything that came before. Because like whatever woo woo led me here, I'm like, it's okay.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Do you believe in woo woo stuff?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Uh, totally.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Totally, do you?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  I have to.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  What are you having a hard time getting on board with that you like wish?

• 4:18Speaker 01

  The attachment theories.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  I tried, I don't even understand it.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Okay, where are you fall like anxious?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Anxious, anxious, what are you?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  I think I have been anxious in the past. I feel by some miracle securely attached.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  No, you way.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Today.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  And that's the end of the episode. Um, yeah, I think, but I, but I, but I, but like, watch it be different tomorrow.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Right, right. I just don't, there's like three, it's, I can't even get into it because Kacey Musgraves tried to explain it to me and I looked at her.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  What a privilege.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  You know, and it was, and I looked at her and I said, I don't get it.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Well, listen, she probably knows like way more than all of us.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  She knows like the world.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is like her well of wisdom that cannot be touched. Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Who do you listen to?

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Oh, well, um, I've been listening to a lot of like, I have a playlist that I made recently around this, um, movie that I'm doing.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, congrats.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  I know, well, thank you very much. But I've been listening to lots of old music, lots of like Peggy Lee, if you know who that is. Mm, mm, mm, mm. I'll send you the playlist.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  It's, um, or like, also like the Benny Goodman Trio. I've been listening to a lot of kind of like more instrumental things these days. Separately though, like more current Grace Ives. Do you love her yet?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Love Grace Ives, yes.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  I think she's so cool.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  She's so cool.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  I think she's so cool. So I'm a big fan of her, her stuff. And I thought her new album is exciting. What's, what's in like heavy rotation for you right now?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  The new Kim Petras song?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Okay, I haven't listened to it yet.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  And it is like, wait, is it 11/11?

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I missed it, sorry.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  I have an 11 tattoo.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Every time I 11/11, I have to make a wish. That's the woo woo I believe in.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  I always, also, our, um, someone on our, our tour crew, like four years ago, he said every time that he sees three numbers in succession, he has to tap three times. And now anytime I'm on my phone and I see three numbers, I'm like, I'm, I'm, I've not, you know, when you just get it in your head, it's like a total hyperfixation.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Like OCD.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Like OCD. I'm like, yeah, like that thing I have.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, just that little thing.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Like that little thing about me.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Did you record the whole new album at Long Pond?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  No, we did a bunch of it there. We did a bunch of it at Electric Lady and we did a bunch of it in London.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  What is Long Pond actually like?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  It's the greatest.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  It seems it.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  It's the greatest, it is, it's, it's, it really is. It's, it's in an undisclosed location, but it is like, um, it's the best. It feels like a, the physical manifestation of Aaron's spirit. So I don't know if you've met him ever before.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  I have not.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Okay, I really wish he was with us right now.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Is he just the best?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  He's the greatest. We, someone asked us recently, like, how would you describe your guys' relationship? And we were sat next to each other, like, and it is like a sibling.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Energy, which is hysterical, but it is, it is that vibe. So to, to be in his environment when our, you know, friendship runs that deep and our like collaborative relationship is as kind of like robust as it is and has informed like, you know, my adult life thus far so significantly, to be in a literal house.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  That like he, you know, curated and he creates and it feels like, again, woo woo. But like the air is like a different texture or something. There's like.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  You're in like a, like a different universe.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, completely.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  So it's a real privilege to be there. And it is like a second home at this point. It's so lucky.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Did he do the whole new album?

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we produced it together and, and, uh, it was us. And we've had, like, there are a bunch of brilliant players that played across it. His twin brother Bryce, who, they're like identical and it's like amazing because the fact that there's another Aaron. But they're, um, both, they're radically different people and also like equally brilliant artists. So he's this like insane, um, like composer. And he had this Macedonian orchestra play strings across the whole album. And that was amazing. And, um, Justin Vernon of Bon Iver.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  I love Bon Iver.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's, he's across this album. He sings on a bunch of things and plays on a bunch of things.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  He does?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. And Hit the Wall, his, there's, anyway, I'll point it out to you later, but he, yeah, he sings in a bunch of different places. And then Bella Blasco is our engineer and she mixed a bunch of the songs as well. And she's like a total beast, like incredible, um, at her job. And so it was us, it was us.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Congrats.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  What, is this album number three?

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, number three. Do you have a lucky number?

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Seven.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Oh, that's my birthday. September.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  September, oh, Virgo.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, what are you?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Scorpio.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm a Scorpio rising at least.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Really? I see, I, I got that. That is stuff I believe in.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Tell me more about your chart.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  I'm, are you like super in it?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  I'm not super in it, so I kind of always, I feel like a phony when I ask. But I, I'm invested enough that I think I have kind of like surface level knowledge and it'll, you know, tear me to shreds. Like I probably will get it all wrong, but.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I'm a Scorpio sun, Gemini rising, Gemini moon.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, scary, it's bad. It's like a bad chart.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Wow, no, no, no.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  It's pretty bad.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  No, you, no, you, you, you lead, how do you feel the Gemini manifests in your life?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Like, I'm able to talk to people.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Oh, you are.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  You are so able to talk to people. Do you ever like shock yourself at your social butterfly like abilities?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  No, it's gone completely.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Wow, what do you mean?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Like, back in the day, back in like my college days, like I used to be able to, my social battery, like.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  I would be able to wake up and start talking to people.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And I think it's because I started smoking weed a lot, that I'm just like.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm just like, oh, I want to be in my bed high.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Totally. Do you think it is like that coupled with being famous?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  You're welcome. Do you think it might be that combo?

• 11:09Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Like weed is complicated inherently when you even if it's not super, you know, top of mind as you go through the world, if like even in your subconscious or like, someone here might know me, but I might not know them. And then there's this weird kind of like fishbowl like perception feeling.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  That like whether or not you're high on anything. I think there can I will sometimes be like white knuckling like the, you know what I mean?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Like a wave of it, but anyway.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  With weed for me, it's like, I think I became so comfortable in my own head.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Like I'm able to smoke and like make myself laugh. And then so it's like, well, I don't need to go outside and meet people.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're like, I check all boxes.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I could just like sit and smoke and like go to bed.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Do you smoke?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Um, I don't right now very much at all, to be completely honest. I definitely had a period, especially kind of like during COVID, there was a stretch where, as you know, like,

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  as you've just described, you're like, cool, my whole world, like my whole world is right here and like, but I don't think ultimately it, it,

• 12:30Speaker 02

  I struggle because I'm like, sometimes it's so the best thing. And then I feel like I want to be available to

• 12:44Speaker 02

  the people in my life, but also like opportunity and like spontaneity in a way that like,

• 12:50Speaker 01

  weed doesn't allow.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Doesn't allow, it will like keep me like as if I'm like handcuffed to this chair.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  And I, and I think I prefer um, the freedom of feeling like mobile and able.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  More than I prefer the handcuffed to my chair feeling these days.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Well, I was like the biggest donor and then Tucker came on the show and was like, I stopped smoking. Like I'm like done. And I was like, oh, well.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Did he get you to stop?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Kind of. He, I was like, well, you're, I was like, your career is kind of going well. Like, yeah, I should check this out.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Have you felt?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Well, I'm two days clean.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay, okay. Honestly, congratulations. That's awesome.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Thank you. I was like, I'm not going to smoke this weekend.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's like, I think it's hard generally with things that we, that, you're such a high functioning, like high achieving person.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Anxious person.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Are you 26?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Okay, me too. When's your birthday? Did you just say?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  October 27th.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Oh, we're literally, okay.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  We're like sisters. We're sisters. I love a Virgo, more than life itself.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Really?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  They keep me in check in ways that like my old roommate was a Virgo, like all those.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  And no longer your roommate.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  No, because.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Cause you're a Broadway star.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  That's so amazing. It's so crazy. How is that?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  The best experience of my entire life.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Tell me everything, eight shows a week?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  It was eight shows a week.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  And you were with Jenny Slate?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  I was with Jenny Slate, my queen.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  She is like, she, I met her only recently, uh, last year. And I, I, it's like, you know, when you're, you're really uncomfortable somewhere and you meet.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Someone that makes you.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  The person and you're like, everything is actually great.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Jenny.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  She does make you feel that way.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  So tell me everything, top to bottom.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  She, okay.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Sorry, please drink your water as well.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Broadway. I was in.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Tell me when you got like.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Japan with Alice.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Sheik.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  I felt very chic. I was in Japan with Alice, our mutual friend.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yes, shout out.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Shout out Alice. The best.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  The best.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  The best, greatest, funniest, greatest person of all time.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  I haven't seen her in 12 trillion and a half years.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, she was supposed to come, I tried to.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  She's gonna be here.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  I tried to convince her to come this weekend and she said, mm-mm.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Mm-mm.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  She said, I'm staying in LA.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  I, I understand that.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but um, I was in Japan with Alice and I got a call because Ashley Park, who's incredible, had to drop out of the play for like some commitment. And they were like, well, it's this play and it's with Nicholas Braun, Ray Romano and Jenny Slate. And I fell to the floor and I said, yes.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  And they said.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  That's the dream.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  And I said, well, they said, you have to move to New York next week. So now I'm.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  There's so much more to like, I can't believe, is this our first time meeting?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  And we learned we're sisters.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  No, but we're, first of all, we're DM warriors.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  I'm like, did you finish industry?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  And I did.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Bitch, did you start it?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are DM, I think we DM every single day.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  I, we are so up in it that I'm like.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  I, I messaged her on Instagram yesterday and as I hit send, she started typing. As I hit send, she started typing.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  And also it's like, it has to be some weird cosmic thing. I have no notification. You know what I mean? I'm like, I am like, I don't, I can't. And so we're just synced up.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  We are.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  We're synced.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  That's what Alison and I say.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  We sync up.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Wait, so thoughts on industry?

• 16:19Speaker 02

  I love that show so much.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  I love that show so much. I am so moved by the acting in it. And I think it's like perfectly chaotic and dark. And the first two seasons, I like, I, it feels like, you know, when you keep returning to something that doesn't necessarily make you feel good?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, always.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Like I felt that with Skins when I.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  I couldn't do Skins.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  It was really, it got me bad.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I tried when I was in like seventh grade and I said, nope.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I don't like.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  I think I was 12.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  And I was like, this is my fucking show. Yes. And it made me feel terrible. It made me like really sad and like probably go down a bad, anyway. And with industry, I was like, I can't stay away, but it made me depressed after every episode. And there was something kind of amazing about like feeding that.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Which is like my own thing to explore.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Is where it kicks the fuck off. Season three is where it kicks off.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Wait, this was just four?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  This was just four.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then they're entering their last season now.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is apparently like.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  I'm scared.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  I just talked to Marisa and Mahala and they were like, we read the first two or three scripts and it's balls to the wall.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Of course it is. I, I saw a clip of them doing some press junket around like introducing the next season and she was like, I want to just go so hard.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  It's gonna be so, who's your favorite?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  I just love their relationship. I think they're like, I love a complicated female friendship in any universe. And I think the two of them are like opposite sides of a coin. And, and I think that they're feel, get, feels like they're sisters. And then sometimes you're like, are you guys gonna like?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  You can, yeah, like what? Don't you want her to be on the couch right now?

• 18:13Speaker 01

  She was the other day.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Oh, she was on the couch?

• 18:16Speaker 01

  She came.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Me eating the Michael's? I'm like, where, where was she?

• 18:20Speaker 01

  She did, her and Mahala did back to back. I felt like, like the official.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Oh my God, what?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  I felt like the official industry podcast, but it was amazing.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Oh my God, I'm really jealous.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  It was awesome. She's so, they're both so awesome.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  I met my holiday at a party recently and it was like one of the, so embarrassing. It was like, do you ever, I haven't had this in such an acute kind of way in so long where I, I was like, I think I botched that interaction.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Oh, always.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  But I like, in a way that I was like thinking about it later. Do you know, I was so caught off guard. I turned around and she was there. And it was, I think because I was just so deep in the industry universe. So I was like, felt like I was tripping. And I think I said something so embarrassing. And anyway, sorry. I didn't mean to be weird.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  I feel like all we do is talk about television on our dance.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  It is, it is, it is. What else is, oh, there's a new show.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Watch Homeland.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  And I think you lasted like a season?

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Less, to be honest. But, but not because I think that show is like, I know it's as amazing as you and the rest of the world says it is. I think I haven't started it in the right place yet.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Well, so the thing about Homeland is seasons one and two are great.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Our television podcast.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Season, yeah, this is just about TV. Season three is horrendous.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Season four is amazing. Season five and six are atrocious.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And then season seven is brilliant.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Okay, so you're kind of like fighting it always?

• 19:55Speaker 01

  You're, it's like, you're like, just like, you're powering through.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  How old were you when you watched the show?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Homeland? I was, what year did it come out? 2010? I was 10?

• 20:05Speaker 02

  This is where I think maybe like, I think I maybe missed the.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  I was at my grandparents apartment and I was laying on the couch and there was, I'm like the biggest sucker for like a promo or like a.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Like a, like if there's like a trailer.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  That's like, I'm like, there was a trailer for Homeland and I was like, ooh, what's this? And then I saw a late night appearance and everyone was, and it was like Jimmy Kimmel or something. And they were like, everyone's talking about Homeland. And I was like, well, why the fuck am I not talking about Homeland?

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's why you have your finger on the pulse. Like you're, you at 10 years old, like, why don't I know what Jimmy Kimmel was referring to?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Right. And so I started watching Homeland and I didn't quite get it. Same way that I started Girls. When I was that age and I didn't quite get it. And now I rewatched Girls and I was like, that is my bible.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  It is, it is. I don't know how many times I've rewatched that show. Have you read Fame Sick yet?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  I'm like a quarter through.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Okay, keep going.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Is it, I've heard it's just unbelievable.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  It, I really, I really wept at the end. Um, yeah, I think it's remarkable. And I think I feel, I, you know how like?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Every Taylor album that comes out just perfectly aligns with the thing you need to listen to internally.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  There's like really something about Lena's reflection and obviously like her life is such a singular, she's so singular and, but there were so many parts of the book that I was like, why are my, I'm like, why is my, why am I shaking?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  No, because it's like, it's like this honesty that you don't, it's the same with Taylor. It's like, you don't expect them to be so honest.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  And then they're so honest and you're like,

• 21:57Speaker 02

  And she's just really also like fair.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  There's something

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Kind where you know she could go harder. You know what I mean?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  It's like, there's something really like beautiful to me, I think about the way that she reflected on obviously like the past like 15 years. It's just pretty remarkable.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  She doesn't like tell you how to feel about it. She's just like, this is what happened.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  And her, her personal voice to me is just like one of my favorite to read.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Ever.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  So it's like, you know, I can't wait to read it again soon.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Are you a big reader?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  I am, I am, but right now, having just finished that, I'm like reading the, the script for this movie like every day on the, because I'm like, having never done anything like this before, I'm like, how, how will I remember all these worms?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Is this your first time acting?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  And what's the premise of the film?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Well, I can't share that.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  But I can share that, that Helena Rain, who's directing and she wrote the script is like a mad scientist genius, like witch, and I say that in like the highest form of

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Which is compliment.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Big, I mean, like I, it's, she's a, she's just, she's just so brilliant. And when I met her for the first time three years ago, it was like similar to us because we're sisters.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  We like are.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  I know. I really like, it's the first time we've held hands. Let's stay here.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Well, I was like, you walked in and I was like, we've met. And then we sat down and I was like, we haven't met.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  We haven't. I know. I also like, had I known we were going to be at your house, like you'd have a housewarming.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  And now I know you like these.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Which one is it? Santal? Yeah, sorry to fuck with the set.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  No, please.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Expect a fat candle later today.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Um, Helena, when I met her, I was like, oh, I feel like I'd known her before. And then when she sent me the script, it, I felt like I was being tased is like the way I can describe it. It was just so electrifying and anyway, I've been reading that every single day. Are you a reader?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  I try so hard.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  But when I get it, I really get it.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Like, I really get it. Like I'm, I'm doing Fame Sick and I'm also doing this book called Strangers.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  What's the book I'm reading?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  No, it's because Louise loves it so much.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  I haven't read that yet, but I, I know the premise. It sounds real nuts.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  And my best friend Brett read it and she was like, you, she was like, Brett doesn't like cry. And she was like hysterically sobbing and she was like, I, you need to read this book.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  And so I read the first chapter and at the end of the first chapter, the husband's like,

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  And it's just like crazy.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  It's like crazy. I've, it's like the way she describes it, he like walks in, it's not even a spoiler. He leaves her and like he walks in the

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Even I know that.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. He walks in the room and it's like, I'm leaving you.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Out of nowhere.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Mm mm.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  And it's like,

• 25:15Speaker 02

  No, thank you.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  What?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  No, thank you for like anxious death.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Um, no, that is, yeah, she, I've seen snippets of her speaking on the, the process of writing the book and I'm just stoked for that woman that she, what is her name? I'm forgetting it.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Of course I don't know.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Right, okay.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  What is her name?

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Bell, Bell Burden? Cool.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Star. What a star. Um, yeah, I'm just so happy for her that she's having all the success around something that's like, sounds so painful.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Um, I have, I am getting a sense and I will send you some books along with a candle because I

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Wait, please.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  I do think.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  If you send me a book, I'll read it.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Okay. Great.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you send me a book, I'll read it.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  And also like, like, how do you feel about poetry?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Love poetry.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  It's short.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  I love, do you write poetry?

• 26:06Speaker 02

  I would not call it that, but I have written things that to me, I was like, is this going to be a song? And then no.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  It's never, you've never written a poem that's turned into a song?

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Oh, well, no, I mean, I've written, yeah, I suppose, well, I've never been like time for me to write a poem and then it becomes a song. I've written songs that I'm like, no, it's not a song. That doesn't like, that won't.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Or I don't, that isn't for some reason, it's not calling me to translate it into song.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  You know who wrote a bunch of poetry that turned into music was Amy Winehouse?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Uh, that, that absolute

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Queen who can do no wrong.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  No wrong. And she, I've seen that documentary so many times and she, I remember like Mark Ronson talks about like, she like goes to the backyard, um, she comes back and she's like, I just wrote this poem and it was like Back to Black. And it's like,

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Can you imagine being Mark Ronson as well?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Like,

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Like literally no.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  No. Yeah. I mean, one of the greatest writers of all time. She's, yeah, she, I, I, I don't, I've never, I think I, um, I, I remember like in school and stuff, anytime there'd be like a, you know, poetry adjacent project, it would like hurt me. Like I'd be like, oh, I hate it. But then when it's not being like guided, I do find sometimes that there's like, I don't know, certain songs, certain songs stay on the page and then

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Forever.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  As summer comes to a close, it has made me sad that I have not seen enough live shows, which has made me want to plan to see more of them. Specifically, I would love to see Ryan Beatty on tour and Gracie Abrams on tour. Her tour begins December 2nd, 2026. It's the Look at My Life Tour and you can get tickets for that at SeatGeek.com. You can use my code therapist for 10% off. And the reason I like buying tickets on SeatGeek is because it shows you events popular to your area. If you put in like where you are, also when you're purchasing your ticket, it rates it on a scale from one to 10, one being not the best, 10 being the best. So you know you're getting enough bang for your buck. SeatGeek isn't just for concerts, it's for comedy shows, it's for Broadway shows.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  I mean, you must see Meg Stalter and Oh Mary on Broadway. I cannot emphasize that enough. And if you miss Meg Stalter, Bowen Yang is the next Mary, who will also be incredible, who I am so excited to see. So there's comedy, there's music, there's Broadway, there's sporting events. I mean, the World Cup just happened. It's about to be, baseball season's still going on. It's going to be warm out for a while. People are still going to want to be outside and I really do feel like live music and live events are such a form of community. I mean, we saw it personally when the Knicks were playing in New York, like everyone, the city was just alive in a way that it hasn't been in a while. And I really feel like live events bring that sense of togetherness and SeatGeek.com

• 28:56Speaker 01

  helps bring everyone together. You can use my code therapist for 10% off. Also, if you click the link in the description and download the app, the code therapist is automatically downloaded to your account. And once again, that's code therapist for 10% off. So thank you again, SeatGeek, for sponsoring tonight's episode.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  This episode of Therapist is brought to you by Booking.com. I was looking through my camera roll the other day. I kind of had like this week, there's always this week in summer where you're kind of like, I feel like I had so much fun and now everything's slowing down and I feel like time is wasting away and I need to make the most out of summer. And I found this photo, the past weekend, I celebrated my friend Elliot's birthday in the Hamptons and I was looking at photos and I was like, God, a weekend away is just the best thing in the entire world. And there's only so much time left in summer and it inspired me to try to book a new trip, which I will be doing on Booking.com because Booking.com is the easiest place to book a

• 29:56Speaker 01

  trip for a large, for anyone and also a large group of friends because you are able to put in everybody's needs and requests and it will help you find a place to rent or a hotel room. Because at the end of the day, as long as you have a place to stay and a roof over your head, the rest of the trip kind of plans itself. It's all about the people you're with. Booking.com makes that first hurdle of just making sure you have that place to stay, easy. I mean, I say it all the time, when I was on tour, we would literally pull up to places and we would have no place booked and Matt would quickly type in some stuff on Booking.com and we would have a place in five seconds. I was never worried. And I'm so excited to get to plan A, my final summer trip. Go on, book that trip. It's easy.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Booking.com, booking dot, yeah. Thank you, Booking.com again for sponsoring tonight's episode.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Close to you.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Did you feel like, were, because were your fans like, if you don't release that, release this, I'll kill you?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like, if you don't put it out, I will like rip every fingernail off your body and then like peel your skin away.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Because I was there when that snippet dropped.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Oh, what?

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yes, I was there with the OG high school videos.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Oh, that is so nice. That is so, that's so trippy now.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  I, it, it is. Because I remember seeing you just sing on Instagram.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Be relentless.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden it was like.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  No, I, well, I loved, I loved that song. I just kind of, I, I, I feel like, um, well, to answer your question, yes, yes. And I think it's nice, like even thinking about this album, I'm like, there are songs that, that are, you know, a couple of years old that I would never have thought then would, you know, maybe ever see the light of day or like be on this album, but the, but the way that songs kind of find you at the right time, I, I appreciate that. And, um, and I think it's, it's, it's kind of cool, like to have started putting music out that way,

• 32:07Speaker 02

  where it was really impulsive and these like tiny little snippets and getting immediate feedback from strangers was my introduction to what my relationship with my audience kind of would end up looking like. And there was like a real gift in that because it kind of provided like a degree of intimacy that, at least in my experience, like it feels rare.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  You know, to feel like we're in conversation with one another as much as we are. Um, and sometimes it's really fun to engage and listen and respond with like a thumbs up, like yes, okay, I'll put that song out. And then, and then it's also really like liberating to be like, I know that doesn't represent me at all. And I love that you have, you know, affection for it, but it, you know, but certainly not.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  But I feel like you see that epitomized when, I forget what set or what festival you were doing, but the entire electrical thing went out.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  And you were able to.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Mad cool in Madrid.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you were able to just like completely just get on the ground and talk to your audience. And it was like one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Oh, it was so nuts. That day was crazy.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  You're like, no, no, no, no, no.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  It was really crazy because it was, it was so.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  So hot.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  But that's why it happened. It was so hot that the system just like blew. Um, and it was, that was one of the most memorable shows of all time for, you know, I, I will never forget that because it was like you, I don't know, there's something like in that moment, it's also amazing. You're just like, okay, the, the mutual love becomes so apparent. Sometimes when you're in like a run of show, like it's not autopilot, but there are times sometimes where your bo, you know, if you're on tour every single night, like I'm sure you must feel this doing your job as well, like.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Kind of.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  Sometimes you're, if you're capable of doing it and not being like a hundred, 10% present, sometimes your body, like if you're exhausted or whatever the thing is, you'll like, you can still get by if you are.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  It's like a script sometimes.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Which like, I really try to be like, we, that's why I like, we'll do a quick little meditation before every show, just to be like, okay, you're here now and your feet are on the ground and like the people, like this particular audience will never again be the exact same. Like the alchemy is made up of every single individual, you know, all of the things. Cause I want to give them everything. And like, anyway. Um, but when your shit goes left and the power cuts out, it's like this like incredible moment where you're like, I sincerely really want to stay and like give them a show and they sincerely, for whatever reason, didn't leave like, and they carried it and it was amazing.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  And we made it work with just, with no mic, nothing plugged in, just an acoustic guitar. But it was just beautiful. And I think it was also such an amazing representation of Madrid, like their city is so alive and fucking like, it's infectious.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I want to go to Madrid so bad.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  You would love it.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Everyone says that.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  And Barcelona, you gotta go as well.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  I've been to Barcelona once, but I fought with my mom the entire time.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  What'd you fight about?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  What'd you fight about? Everything.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  What's your relationship like with your family?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Best friends.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Okay. Are you an only child?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  No, everyone thinks so, but I have a younger brother.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  I don't know why I wasn't there actually at all.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Every, I have a younger brother named Luke and.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  What's the age difference?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  He's 23 and I'm 26.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Okay, lovely.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  But, um, we fought about everything. Like I put her iPad in her checked bag instead of her carry on and she thought someone was going to steal it.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  I do have to ask you.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, tell me everything.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Touring with Tucker.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Where do we start?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Where do we even begin?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  I mean, biggest star on planet earth.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  I know. And he knows it too.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  He does know it, doesn't he?

• 36:18Speaker 01

  He knows it too.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Uh, I just love him. It's so cra, I tried, when, I'm trying to remember when we first.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  I, it's so odd, like trying to trace back like the origin of all of these. Tucker, where'd he come from?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Where?

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, when did you two meet? When did that?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  The podcast.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  I'm like, are you enemies?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay. I'm like, are you gonna kiss?

• 36:45Speaker 01

  We were supposed to get dinner and then I was like, I can't, I can't do dinner. Like.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Because I hate you.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Because I was like, I was tired. I was like, I can't do dinner. I'm cancer. I'll see you tomorrow. And then I thought, the way he texts is not the way he behaves. So he's texting, he's like, so excited, so excited. And then he sat down and I just disseminated my character.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, right.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  For like an hour. And I was like, um.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Was it like demoralizing?

• 37:08Speaker 01

  And I was, I looked at Louise after and I was like, was that really bad? And she goes, I think it was really good. And then now we're best friends.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  He's the greatest.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  He's the greatest of all time and I adore him.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  He's the greatest of all time and I adore him as well. And we've got our like main ties, um, with, he's legitimately from there. My mom's side is just all from there. But I remember when I started, when I discovered he was a person initially, all those years ago, I was like, wow, he's so talented. And then like the main of it all is like, oh, I'm going to love you forever. And, um, I just think he's done such a beautiful job of like maintaining the integrity of who he is and also doing everything he, seemingly everything he wants. And, um, the fact that also like now I'm just thinking like the

• 38:03Speaker 02

  fact that he's in Lena's thing.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yes, I was literally about to say that.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Like what a perfect, I just, I really, I really appreciate those sweet universe moments where like the right people find each other. And I do think in this, um, I can't speak to that at all. I know literally very little about it and haven't seen anything, but I'm assume, knowing the two of them, I'm like, that makes my heart feel very full.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  The way they talk about each other is like so much love.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just happy for him.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Were you ever Sally?

• 38:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  What?

• 38:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Never?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Listen, I feel like Sally is eternal, don't you?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  I, yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  I mean, who knows how many days we have, like.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Left on this earth, but I, you know, anytime, hopefully one of these years.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  I know every day I wake up and I'm like, maybe the world will end.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Maybe today.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  At least we've now met.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Like before it actually did all, you know, blow up. Um.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  And what was it like touring with Taylor?

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Oh goodness.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Just, what did you learn?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Oh, um, really like, it's so easy to talk about because it was, it was like the masterclass, you know what I mean?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  I can't even imagine.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Um, the, what did I learn? Um, obviously the biggest tour in the history of.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Tours.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  Tours in the history of the human race. Um, and so you get to watch like this titan of the industry, um, top down, make the experience for every single person who ever attended, but every single person who works to make it happen, like the best version of the experience that it could be. And, and, um, it's like a, it's basically like, there's like the number of people working on that tour. It's like the equivalent of a city. Like there are, there are so many people. And what's amazing about touring is like, not one single person is on tour if they don't have to be there. It's like everyone's job is essential.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  And when, when you see everyone's like generosity of spirit be the way it is, everyone's smiling all the ti, it like felt like the equivalent of, um, there was something very like summer camp vibes about it. And, um, she is, I'm trying to think like really like what I learned, like I learned everything, but I, but I learned on like a personal level that it's like she, like the show always goes on, no matter what. You would never know if she was sick. You would never, like, you would never know if her heart was aching for some, like she's

• 40:56Speaker 02

  just giving it everything and, um, doing it with like grace and, uh, warmth and, um, yeah, like, she's just this like fiercely brilliant, like singular, kind of like alien, but she's a person. You're like, what the hell is going on? And, um, and it's pretty amazing. And then I will say also just like.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  I learned what it felt like to be in a stadium where everyone is their like capacity for feeling is at an all time high. And what that does to the air in a room when everyone is guard down expressive. At that scale, when there's like 90,000 people, it's like, I don't know. It's like you know, you went.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, multiple.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Where'd you go, LA?

• 41:59Speaker 01

  I went LA three times and I went Vegas.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  And then I almost went and saw you guys in Vancouver.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  But I couldn't make it.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  That's okay.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Cause the flight was just tears.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  I feel like if you've seen the show four times.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Take care of your heart.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  It was incredible.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  But I just never got to see Tortured Poets, which sucked.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  I know.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  Wow. That's tough.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  It was tough.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  That was that when that joined, that became my favorite part of the show.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  And that's what everyone says.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was really, it was really powerful. It was so scary. The first night you're like, oh, my god, like, what's gonna happen? Anyway, yeah, it's just the best time, the best time.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  The thing about Tortured Poets is like you, it comes to you when you need it most.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Like, I went on one date with one guy, crashed out, and I listened to the entire. Ask me what?

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Just about your heart?

• 42:56Speaker 01

  My heart?

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, what's your dating life? Oh, really?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  I think so. I actually don't know.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Are you like?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  At this point?

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Your heart is unfortunate?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Like, I, I think so. I'm like, I think so. I'm like, I have these like guys that I'm talking to. And then, but I'm like, I can't tell if I'm convincing myself to like, have you ever been that way where you're like, am I convincing myself to like this person?

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Certainly. Also, I don't know where I must, who said it? Could have been Audrey who said it, but like, they oftentimes your imagination is way more fun than the person you're imagining.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Always.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  And therefore you make that, yeah, I think maybe it was, and that, you know, of course, then therefore if you're living in your head more than you are like face to face with that person, you're like making them, you're turning them into, but you know, you're turning them into someone they're maybe not. Not to be like on the cynical side, because maybe it is like a true connection.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  I had like a hard time being like, show, like showing all sides of myself to someone and then being like, do you still, are you still down?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Cause I like, cause I like listen to my own voice every single week for the show. And so at this point, like my voice is like,

• 44:13Speaker 02

  I get you.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 44:17Speaker 02

  I just wrote a song about this.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Which song?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Last week. It's a song that, who knows?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  New album.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  It was, we, we had, yeah, we, maybe, or maybe like nowhere, but just had, yes.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  There's, it's like very, it's a very shocking feeling. But I also think there's like, that's not, it's not normal to like absorb so much of.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yourself.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  So like, I feel for you.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  It's in like the same sense that like humans were never supposed to look in the mirror.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Absolutely. We do not need a clearly reflective surface.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Go find a pond.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Coffee cup. Hello. That is it. Okay, interesting. I, that's, that's, but you're going on dates and stuff?

• 45:04Speaker 01

  I'm going on dates. I have a hard time going on dates because I hate listening.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Maybe you don't want to listen when you're not at work.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. I think that's what it is. Wow. Thank you.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  We're on Therapists.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're on Therapists. I think that's what it is, because I'm sitting, but then it's like, have I just not found the right person? Cause then there's this one guy I'm talking to that I love listening to.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  And I love listening.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Does he love listening to you?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Then.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think so. I'm on the phone with him all day.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Quickly goodbye.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  And he just complains and complains and complains.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  You love listening to that?

• 45:40Speaker 01

  I love listening to him complain.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  What about the others?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  The others?

• 45:44Speaker 02

  That's amazing to me that you can date, like, that you, that you're like, your capacity for people like allows you to have eyes for more than one.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  I'm just like, I, sometimes I need the male validation. Like, I'm so male centered. Louise taught me.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Oh, taught you, taught you how?

• 45:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Explained that he was. Oh, okay. Louise taught me to be that way.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Louise was like, you only care about men and your entire life revolves around them. And I was like, yes.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  How long have you guys known each other?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Longer.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  You're like, make it longer.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Remember when we were talking about how which is a compliment?

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Which?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's amazing. You do have like a beautiful aura about you. Yeah.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're the best.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  That's nice that you can be honest with each other.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  You're like, it's so nice.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  So nice.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  So, there is nothing more exciting than when Poppy releases a new flavor. I remember when they released Shirley Temple and it was quite literally the best day of my life. And I never thought it could get better, but somehow it did because they just released Sour Apple. And if there is one thing about me, I love a crisp apple drink and I love things that are sour. So the new Poppy Sour Apple is just, oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. I've had people text me be like, I will show up to your house, because I have it in my house in LA. And they will be like, I will show up to your house and grab it. You do not need to be there, but I need to try it because it really is that good.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Oh, there is nothing better than a sour soda. And not only is it sour, it's sweet, which is the perfect mix, may I add? Cause you want that kick of sour, but then you want the comfort of the sweetness. Also, I think it's so cool. I always talk about this, but like three years ago, like, it used to be impossible to find a Poppy in a store. And like, every store, every bodega I go to, every grocery store I go to, Poppy is there. And I just think it's such a testament for how good the product actually is. And the new Sour Apple is actually so amazing. Like, it, I'm so excited for everyone to be able to drink it because it is that incredible. Find Poppy at your nearest retailer or get it delivered straight to your door on Amazon. Poppy, soda's back, but so much better.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Why Hit the Wall is the first single?

• 48:01Speaker 02

  I immediately upon writing it felt like it had to be the introduction to the whole album. I felt like the,

• 48:13Speaker 02

  I was really sad going to the studio that morning.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  You know, when you're here, like, is the best here? And like the, the kind of, when you're, when you're quite sad or you feel very lonely and you walk and the tears just are happening. I missed my friend in a big way and didn't know. I was just kind of like, I don't, I felt stuck and I felt lonely and I was going to the studio. We were sort of, Aaron and I, I think we're both, and we actually, we were talking about this, this like a few days ago, that at that point, we had like six songs that we really, really liked, but hadn't really produced out yet and didn't, they were sort of, because I think the album sounds a bit eclectic.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  But to me, it feels very holistic. It feels like

• 49:06Speaker 02

  there are,

• 49:08Speaker 02

  they kind of like hit on my kind of spectrum of personal taste, I suppose. And, and at that point, there wasn't much glue yet to connect all the pieces. And so I think he and I were both sort of feeling a bit discouraged at that point, like not sure what this album would be. And then I think simultaneously not sure if we knew if it was like working and if we would be making the next album together. There was just some kind of insecurity and that was coupled with this like loneliness that I was feeling on that day and missing my friend. And

• 49:46Speaker 02

  I was walking to the studio, like, kind of down, like down bleaker, like, which is not a great place to be crying, you know? I have like glasses. I was like,

• 49:55Speaker 02

  and got to the studio and opened the door and he'd been there a couple hours before I was. And I, the, the intro to Hit the Wall was playing and the, just the piano chords and it perfectly matched what my walk was. I was like, this is exactly the thing that I'm feeling. And so I, it was like, the writing process for that was like trance like, like, like being on some like funny psychedelic. Like, I was like, this is, I don't remember writing it. I just remember it being done. And then it felt like it became sort of a North Star for the album. And, and I was like, I absolutely want this to be the introduction because I felt it also sort of

• 50:38Speaker 02

  colored where I was at when I started making this thing.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Right. And it's kind of like, you hit the wall and then everything kind of shatters and.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Correct. And then like everything's broken. You're kind of like never the same.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Put it back together.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Throughout the rest of the album.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Well, congratulations.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Well, thank you so much. Thanks for listening to it.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm so grateful that I can.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  It's very sweet of you to do. It's also like, I know this comes out later, but it is, you're like one of the first people to hear it. So it means a lot.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  I am so honored. I keep telling all my friends, this is the new Gracie. And they're like, can we listen? I said, mm-mm. I said, you can't, but I can.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Thank you for protecting it.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Of course. Are you kidding? What are you therapists about today?

• 51:23Speaker 02

  I'm kind of shocked these days whenever there's like, like mean people being mean out, like in the wild, like, like cruelty generally these days. What in the hell are we talking about? Like, it is hard enough.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  It's hard enough for all of us at this point in time. And I think I'm kind of surprised what, and like, they can, you know, everyone's entitled to be that way, but I suppose it shocks me. It shocks me and it makes me feel like, you know, I also feel like from a kind of diagnosis, I'm like, wouldn't it make you feel better to be softer and more kind and?

• 51:59Speaker 01

  It's crazy, because I feel like as a society, we're like, oh, my god, people used to be so mean in the early 2000s. Like, the press used to be so mean, but now the press is the people. And they're still mean.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  It's just like, I'm just like, what? It surprises me, it surprises me, like. It just surprises me.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  I'm like, wow, the urge, that urge. And it makes me feel quite, like, my heart will ache when I, when I, I feel lucky that, at least today, or at least at like, what time is it? Like noon? I'm like, at noon on May 3rd, I'm fine with it. But like, I do feel like there's, I feel kind of sad for people that, that are, that are like, out there being brutal to others. I'm like, let's just make it easier.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Do you ever let it get to you when people are mean to you?

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. It doesn't feel good. But I also feel like my defense, I suppose, against that is like, I don't read comments, and I feel my circle is like, very small and filled with, like, my true loved ones and my oldest friends. And, um, and that, you know, I, I feel like when you live kind of in the real world, rather than on the internet, it very quickly puts into perspective, like, literally what's real and what's not real. And it, and I, my, you know, I'm a sensitive person for sure. And so I think, I'm not talking about, when I say mean people, I don't, I don't mean like,

• 53:36Speaker 02

  towards me, I, at all. I'm like, go crazy. But I do, I do, it just does surprise me when, when everyone is kind of just truly white knuckling it as best they can, like, suffering through, there's so much

• 53:55Speaker 02

  cruelty and like, I just wish everyone felt like it was okay to be kind.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I know.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Not like in a saccharine way, just like, just like, don't make it harder for everyone else to get through their day, you know?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  I feel like people conflate being really nasty with their sense of humor.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  So they're like, in order for me to be funny, I'm gonna be mean.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  And it like, just doesn't, it doesn't land.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  It's not so funny.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  It lands for people on Twitter.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  But it doesn't land anywhere else.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like Twi, it's like, you know, these, you know, Twitter is like, uh, you know,

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Hell's Gate.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  joyous, like, heat-seeking missile, to like, let me hurt you.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  I just had, like, for the, like, I just had, like, a mass of people being mean to me for the first time. I'd never experienced it before.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  And the only thing that, oh, it's okay. The only thing I-

• 54:50Speaker 02

  It's not great.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  It, yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  It's like, why, it's like-

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Well, I knew it was bad because I woke up so hungover. I woke up, I was like, hmm, hungover. I woke up, Louise said, um, uh, your day is, you don't need to do anything today. And I said, what? Yeah. And she said, everything's canceled. And I was like, excuse me? Like, cause she's never, I've tried, the amount of times I've tried to cancel and stuff, these smallest things, and she's been like, don't you, no, no, no, no. But the thing that, like, to your point, was like, I was like, oh my god, but I have friends that have been friends with me for 10 plus years.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  It's the people who know you, know you. Yeah, I also think, I, um, I was, it's like, I, generally, like, um, everyone has a voice on the internet, which is like, a really amazing thing. And people are able to exercise that, like, right, however, you know, I, I, that's a privilege. Um, or is it a privilege? It's a right. It's just a right.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  It's a, yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  It's not a privilege, it's a right. Um, and I, and I just think, like, feedback, especially, like, for what you do and what I do, like, is inevitable. I think, like, I love feedback. Like, I loved being in school and getting notes. I love being in the studio and getting criticism. I, I love it. I love fighting with my family because they think I'm like, acting out of character. Like, I love feedback from people who are, who are invested in my development and growth and evolution in that capacity. And I think the thing about the internet is that it's like, there's this kind of like, emotional discipline that is required of

• 56:24Speaker 02

  all of us, regardless of size of platform. It's like, we all have a profile on the internet. It's like, we're all susceptible to being yelled at through the phone.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  And it's like, unfortunately, a choice, whether you choose to engage or believe

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  the kind of like, poison that it feeds you. Do you know? Whatever. This is like-

• 56:47Speaker 01

  No, I know what you mean.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  or like, go on and on. But anyway, I'm, you know.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  But also, I was-

• 56:52Speaker 02

  It's great, actually.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  I was talking to, um, I was talking to Casey about it, and she was like, and she put it so like plainly, it's for artists. She was like, this, what she was so frustrated about was that, like, you don't have to like, everything that an artist puts out, and that's fine.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  You shouldn't.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  She was like-

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's great if you do. But it's like, what world are we living in where-

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was like, she was like, if I love this person's album, because we were talking about Golden Hour, and she was like, and a lot of people didn't like Star Crossed. And she was like, that's fine. She was like, but it was the record that I needed to make. And when I hear an album that I love from someone, and I don't like their next one, I'm like, great, I'll catch you on the next one. Because that's what being an artist is.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's lovely. I also think, um, yeah, totally. Yes. I mean, I could like, go on.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  I know, I know. I know.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  You're right. Casey's right. Casey's still right.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Casey's always right. Audrey.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  I know. Your episode was so good.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Audrey is my Roman Empire.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  I just die for her. How long have you guys known each other for?

• 57:59Speaker 02

  17 years, almost.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Wow. Did she write anything with you on this new record?

• 58:03Speaker 02

  We have one song together, yes, that we wrote, um, I think it was like, the week, uh, was it like, the week after we wrote, That's So True. Um, it's called Minibar. It's so fun.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Do you want to get into the Tell Me What You're On?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so bad.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  I know a guy who's been cheating on his girlfriend for their entire relationship multiple years. Now they're moving in together, and now I feel so guilty knowing this, because I just assumed if he's cheating, he's not really taking the relationship seriously. I'm not friends with her, but do I tell her? Or let it run its course and hope she finds out on her own? I have proof of this, by the way.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  Oh, Jesus.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  What would you do?

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Uh, I would tell my friend.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  But she's not friends with her.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm so sorry. I was so in the fucking fog of this, like, horror story.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  I think she's like-

• 58:53Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, wait. Can I?

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Am I allowed to touch it?

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, imagine. No.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Ooh, I wanna, I don't want anyone to be with-

• 59:03Speaker 01

  This guy, yeah. It's so tricky, because my mom was always like, you never get involved.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  God and someone else's.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  No, I don't like it. Um-

• 59:12Speaker 01

  I would, I-

• 59:13Speaker 02

  I would not, I would have such a hard time not expressing-

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Maybe-

• 59:19Speaker 02

  That's also really tricky, though. You're like, I've known for years.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Would an anonymous note?

• 59:24Speaker 02

  That is scary.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  It's like giving Jersey Shore.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  How would you, how would you deliver the anonymous note? Under the door?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then he would take it.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Of their apartment?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  He would take it and be like, thank you, like-

• 59:37Speaker 02

  I don't know that I am, uh-

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Cause I feel like it would almost make her feel worse if a random person said to her-

• 59:45Speaker 02

  But is it gonna make her feel worse?

• 59:48Speaker 01

  If she finds out on her own.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  If she's like, engaged to this dude and-

• 59:52Speaker 01

  I think she has to tell her.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  If it were me, and I'm not this girl, I would, I think I, I think I would have a very hard time not telling her. Though then are you, are you making it about you and your discomfort with the information? I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Your emotional intelligence is incredible.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  That's nice, but I don't, I don't, you're a liar. Um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Sweet pea. Sweet pea.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Sweet pea. I've been talking to a guy and thought it was getting pretty serious. We were on a call, and he was on the, on the bus. And he basically, he muted his mic for a bit. I heard everything. And it was him talking to a girl, calling her pretty and asking for her number. I haven't told him I overheard yet. What do I do? Leave him?

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  That is a quick goodbye.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Right? Except I would be like, who's the girl?

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  He'd be like, can you complain to me first?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, am I the problem? Everyone around me is being so fucking boring. All my best, all my best friends only ever want to do is lay in bed with their Nintendo Switches and geek bars. Oh, I love a geek bar. And I want to have fun.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Is that a vape?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  It's a vape that lights up and, uh, like, has, it's like a Tamagotchi vape.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Are you kidding?

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  No, I'm dead serious. It is going to kill me in five years.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Or is that your, your-

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  No, mine is, um, mine, mine is-

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Elf bar?

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, yeah, mine is called like, the B67,500.

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  I'm like-

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  And it's like, going to kill me in five years.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Okay, don't care.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  We all have our vices.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we all have our vices. And I want to have fun. I grow more and more bored every time I'm with them. I love them all so much, but genuinely have been enjoying time with myself more recently. However, I'm feeling lonely. What do I do? So this question was actually probably submitted by my best friend, Will Hunt.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm trying to think of what Will does. Will, cuz he'll scream at me, like, he would come on tour with me, and we would be in a city and I'd be like, like, like in bed, like, watching TV, and he'd be like, "Let's go explore, explore," and I'm like, I can't.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  That's for life.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't do that right now.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  I'm busy.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  You need to make your own journey. Yeah. Watching Scandal.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Homeland for the fifth time.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Scandal, Homeland, any show about scary government.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  And did he just, um, do his own thing?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  He would, yeah, he'd be like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna go on a walk, you need to do your own thing." What is that, make your own kind of music?

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  March to the beat of your own drum.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Make your own kind of music.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this isn't so complicated, in my mind. I think if you are enjoying spending more time by yourself, you've got your friends, maybe don't judge them for, like, you know, that being their cup of tea. Go out into the world and meet new people that you feel more stimulated by, but you don't have to, like, blacklist former friends for, like, being on a different path. Let there be room.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Right, my friend Brett does it right. She's like, "Okay, well, I don't wanna do what you're doing, so I'm gonna go go on a run, do a run club." Like, she does the Venice Run Club.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's incredible.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  She's met so many friends that want to do things.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's like, we, we better.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  We better.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  My best friend just admitted to me after her recent breakup that she rebounded with her stepbrother. Her stepbrother had also just been broken up with and it all went up in flames. She told me and she asked a bunch of people for advice for this, and everyone told her it was a bad idea, but she met with a tarot card reader who reassured her, and the rest was history. "It's getting draining when I have to pick up the pieces and take her 1 a.m. manic calls about how her life is ruined." Help. I will say.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Help, help us.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I will say manic calls from your best friend at 1 a.m. are kind of part of friendship.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, but.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  The stepbrother.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  What the fuck? I love you go, "Yeah, calling is normal."

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, you probably shouldn't date your stepbrother. Ooh, watch Copa Mia.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  It is a movie where she falls in love with her stepbrother in Spain. With Nicole Wallace, who's from Madrid.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  Okay. Yes. She is.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  She is.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  She is.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  She is. And they have a beautiful relationship.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  So maybe, I'm gonna ta, I'm gonna.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Tap out?

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  Tap out of this one, ooh, I'm gonna tap out of this one. You should give that advice to your friend.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Watch.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Copa Mia.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Go on.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Copa Tua and Copa Nuextra. It's a trilogy.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Sounds like it.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  I've been, I've been seeing this guy for a few months now, and he's amazing. He's Australian, tall, he's literally everything. We text a lot and he always uses the wrong form of "two", which sounds so stupid, but I genuinely can't stand it. He has terrible grammar, and he's fluent in English, so, well, yes, he's Australian. Like, will be sexting and he'll, he will miss. And he will misspell something and it will instantly turn me off.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  How do I correct him without sounding like a freak and a smartass? Help, is this some form of OCD?

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  She's a Virgo.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  Million percent.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Million percent.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  I have such a, I have, I have such a reaction to that kind of shit.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Really? When some, yeah, I, I only.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  And it's not necessarily, like, fair, and also, who the fuck cares? But I see him too.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  No, I, I get it. My tour manager, Matt, can't spell.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Is this some form of OCD? I don't think so. What it could be is you really like him, but you might feel like he's not as great.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  He's not.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  As the rest. And.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  He's pretty bit stupid.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe, but I also love the font you guys use for these.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Oh, that's Nolan.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  It's lovely.

• 1:05:52Speaker 03

  Josephine Sands.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  So nice. I think maybe you're just, I think maybe this person is feeling a little bit, like, turned off.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's that simple.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  In that category.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  I think it's that simple.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  I have had, uh, a crush and, and I said it, I said, "You're using the wrong one," every time.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  And what do they say?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  And they said, "You're right," and then it changed.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Oh, so you can change him?

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  You can change him.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Grammar is an easy fix.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also, like, again, with softness, you know, we don't need to be mean, we don't need to judge.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Me over here, I'm like, ew, foul.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  My mom ran me over in her car a few years ago, leaving me with chronic pain conditions and nerve damage. I'm constantly in pain, and I know it was an accident, but I think I actually hate her. I don't know if I will ever forgive her due to the anger of what she did to me. Any good tips on how to forgive and forget? The Hills.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  I haven't seen that.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  You've never seen The Hills?

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Back to our TV podcast.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  In The Hills.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Lauren Conrad says to Heidi Montag, "I want to forgive you."

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  "But I want to forget you."

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Oh, shit.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  And I know it's tricky with your mom, but maybe you gotta hidey her.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Forget your mom.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Forget her.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  That's tough.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  But it was an accident.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  And, yeah, no, the thing is, I've been dealing with back pain recently.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Oh, no. Was there an inciting incident?

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I put my hoodie on the wrong way.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  And it was after watching a basketball game, so it was just, like, so embarrassing.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  It's heartbreaking, yeah.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  It was like watching these guys, like, pummel over a ball, and then, like, I put my hoodie on, I'm like, ow! And then.

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  And so now I've been dealing with back pain, but in a weird way, it kind of feels like.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Like, you worked out really hard?

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I feel like I worked out hard and I like getting, like, a massage and having, like, I'm on, I'm on knot TikTok.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Mm, wow.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  So it's like these people getting knots out of, and you can see the knot move.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  That's amazing. I would love that.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  It is, I'll send it to you.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  I would love, I don't have TikTok.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  You don't have TikTok?

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  No. Send me a screen recording.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Or, it's not, they're on Reels.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  They're on Reels.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  I have that.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Reels are amazing.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  I love, um, I get, like, chiropractor cracking on Reels often.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  The cracking doesn't.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  I love surgery.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  The cracking doesn't do it for me. What does it for me is when they move their finger and you can see the, like, the muscle knot, and they go.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  And it's like, ugh, and you feel it. There's also dry needling, and they stick the needle in.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  And their muscle twitches, and then there's cupping, of course.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Of course, of course. A horse, of course.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  So I would try cupping, dry needling, and, um, a deep tissue massage.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  And forgiveness towards your mom, cuz she didn't mean to run you over.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, forgive her.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  And then for our last one. My roommate left a bottle of nail polish in her pocket and it got washed with my clothes, so now almost everything I wear is covered in hot pink nail polish, and I'm too broke to buy new clothes. I always have to tell her to wait until my laundry is done too, so she obviously tried to sneak a load in. Genuinely having the crash out of the year right now, how do I get back at her?

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  Are you big on revenge?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  I was.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  You were?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  I was, and then I realized it means nothing.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what my impulse is to say here.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Revenge means nothing. It is like the.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  You know what hurts?

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  Worse?

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. To me, like, my style would be, um, did she say it's her friend?

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  I would write a, I would write a letter, and I would give the letter to your friend, instead of try to get her back. Because if you've had this conversation multiple times, there's, like, roommate boundaries that are, I think, important to uphold, and if all of your stuff is ruined, that's not fair.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  It's not fair. I would ask her to maybe give me money for new clothes.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a fair request, I'd say.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  I think that's a, and if she says no, I think there's no revenge. It's just like, like, sometimes life sucks. And life isn't fair, and bad things happen, and you, and it's taken me so long to realize that, but revenge is the equivalent of, like, when I put, i- it's the equivalent of, like, basing your happiness around an event.

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  It does not work.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  I love that. Yeah, I agree. Also, I think it just will not, it won't, it won't, um, it can't possibly fill your cup. And also then you're kind of, like, infected, in my mind. If you're like, as in, the impulse to be like, "Let me ruin someone's day." This falls under the same category as, like, just cruelty in general. I'm like, it might karmically benefit all of us to just be, just to give grace. You know what I mean?

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Do you believe in karma?

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  I think so too.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  I think so in, like, even small ways that I feel, I don't know what that really looks like, but like, energetically, I feel like there's a.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  I don't know. I feel you kind of get what you give a bit. And of course, there are people who probably, whatever it's coming for all of us.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  Like, I think, I think, I think you like, how do I use vocabulary that doesn't like sound? Like, I don't mean, what I, what I want to say is like, you, you elevate your like, vibration or something and then therefore, but I don't, I've never said that in my life. Like, I've never said, never said that before.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  But you said it now, and now we've said it.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, yeah, but you know what I mean? As in, like, I feel like, I don't know. I feel like there's an, you attract people that are sort of on your same vibration. Or, or here's another thing that my mom has been telling me recently that I like, she is so smart, it hurts, and she is-

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  You are so smart.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Okay, thank you. That's very nice of you to say.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  By the way.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  Thank you. You're so smart. Yes, you are. You have built a fucking empire.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Shut up.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Do you ever stop and like, think about that? We're sat in your, like, it's pretty insane.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  But I feel like a fraud. Do you ever feel like a fraud?

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, but you're, but you have all of this evidence of it being real. So like, believe it, I would say.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Okay, I think I really needed to hear that today.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  I just think so. And, and I also, just on the karma, whatever. I think anytime there's something really hard or challenging or sad that happens, bar a few things that, anyway. I do think that there's like, this attitude that has been helping me recently, which is to say thank you for that thing happening, instead of retreating into a kind of

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  pit of despair about it, which is like, a very natural response. But I do feel like I have an appreciation these days toward things that are hard or challenging or deeply inconvenient or frustrating, or sad. Because I'm like, whatever this is now, is informing down the line if something like this comes up again, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, there are lessons in everything, literally, like. But I do think, do you know what I mean?

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I do know what you mean, actually.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  I don't know why we started

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  No, because it makes-

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  Talking about this.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Because her clothes are all hot pink, nail polish now.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that, that maybe this is an opportunity to reestablish boundaries. Maybe this is a moment you learn, you maybe don't want to live together anymore. Maybe you write a letter and just express how it's affected you.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, use "I" a lot.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Yes, and say, "I forgive you, but it sucks."

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  And I want to forget you.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  And now I'm stuck with hot pink clothes.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  But also, it reminds me of the scene in Mean Girls where they cut her, uh-

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  They cut her shirt, and then she goes, and walks around the school with her shirt cut.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Maybe she's gonna learn that hot pink is her color.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  What do you believe is the color of the summer?

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm loving red.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Okay, love that.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  I'm loving red. Um, how about you? What's your-

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Orange.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Oh, I look so bad in orange.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  No, you do not.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  I learned that before. Your shirt's so cute.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Oh, you like it?

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, orange is of course your color.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  I got it at this store. Have you ever been to Moth Food?

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's from-

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Definitely from Moth Food.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I love that place.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:14:39Speaker 02

  It's amazing, and, um, they have everything, they have everything perfect.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Well, Gracie, what did we learn today?

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  We learned that it's good to be kind and give grace, and that Homeland is a show I need to return to. And we learned that we are sisters.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  And we need to hang out.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  We need to hang out. And I also, I think sometimes, like, in these environments, not in your apartment, in these kind of environments, when there's like cameras and people, people are always like, "We need to hang out," and then it like never, but I'm like, I feel like this is finally-

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  No, we actually do need to-

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  We actually do, and we actually will. And, um, and, and we learned that you will have, uh, more books in your house than you did this morning.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I will, and I will read it.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Read one.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  I will read one.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  The shortest.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  That's, I'll take that. And, um, and we learned that, um-

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  And did you have fun?

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  I had so much fun. I felt this is so natural, so lovely.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I forgot the cameras were here, and when I forget the cameras are here, that's when I know I'm having a good time.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, well, I felt very in flow with you, and I learned that, um, I want to do this again.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Ah, love you.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Bye, pussies.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.