The Basement: John B. Alexander | Roswell, MJ-12, Skinwalker: The Colonel Who Was There

Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call (888) 949-9172 now. Colonel John Alexander commanded Green Berets in Vietnam, briefed the White House, and evaluated the Pentagon's strangest programs. He was the first person to spend the night on Skinwalker Ranch. For 79 years, the strange kept showing up in the middle of his official duties — and he wrote it all down. He brought the files. And the bent forks. This conversation goes places I didn't expect. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Every now and then, someone would die.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Risk. True stories, no holding back.

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  He comes up behind me and whispers right in my ear. "Nobody knows where you are, and nobody can hear you scream."

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  Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they dare to share. Wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00AJ Gentile?

  Today, we're sitting down with Colonel John Alexander. He commanded Green Berets in Vietnam, ran advanced weapons concepts at Los Alamos, and pioneered the military's non-lethal weapons program. He also threw spoon-bending parties for Army generals, sponsored a scientist whose lab levitated scrap metal, and was the first investigator to spend a night on Skinwalker Ranch. And none of it was a hobby. It was work.

• 1:22Speaker 06

  A night at Skinwalker Ranch? You couldn't get me to spend a lunch there. That place has demons that make the crab cat look cuddly.

• 1:30AJ Gentile?

  Today, we're-

• 1:30Speaker 06

  Feed the crab cat!

• 1:32AJ Gentile?

  Today, we're covering the Army's psychic warfare years, the voodoo fire ceremony he filmed in West Africa, and why a man with a file full of things that can't happen isn't worried about dying. And at one point, he mentions that he could beat a polygraph, but he couldn't fool his own white blood cells. That one's gonna bug me for a while.

• 1:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, they can never polygraph me. No pulse points, no fingers, no sweat glands. I'm untestable, baby.

• 1:56AJ Gentile?

  You confessed to things nobody asked about.

• 1:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, allegedly.

• 2:00AJ Gentile?

  Once we wrap up, I'll pop back in and break down our conversation. Let's go down to the basement.

• 2:11AJ Gentile?

  Colonel John Alexander, welcome to the basement.

• 2:14Speaker 06

  Great to be here, I think.

• 2:15AJ Gentile?

  Uh, no.

• 2:16Speaker 06

  I didn't do it, I wasn't there, I don't know what it is about.

• 2:20AJ Gentile?

  We're gonna have fun.

• 2:21Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 2:22AJ Gentile?

  I wanna start somewhere no one does. You're in a village in West Africa in the middle of a voodoo ceremony. Cameras are rolling, and the shaman, what, takes a fire to his face? What happened?

• 2:32Speaker 06

  Oh, no, it's much more than that. This was, we were attending a voodoo ceremony, and this particular case, the shaman himself came out. Now, he picks up a flaming torch and puts it in his mouth, and, you know. Now, what's really interesting was, it was my camera, by the way, that was rolling. And at distance, like we're sitting right now, this is not a long ways away, and yes, it's hot, you know what I mean, there's definitely heat.

• 3:04Speaker 06

  Got long-ching whiskers that don't singe.

• 3:09Speaker 06

  Now, this also went on, and they brought out two young boys, probably about 10 or so, and the shaman goes this, and passing the power. And said, "Well, they can't, you know, they haven't got the full range yet." But they would stand in the fire, sit in the fire, eat the fire. Yeah, it defies everything you know about thermodynamics. I also, they say, "Well, they have some magical, you know, asbestos substance or something." I can't understand, these are people who look up to dirt and poverty.

• 3:45AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 3:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, that they have some exotic materials or something. They did have a long history as to how that came about, but it, yeah, just defies the rules, there's no doubt about that.

• 3:59AJ Gentile?

  What was the ceremony for, with their lighting fire?

• 4:01Speaker 06

  Us. No, this was, we were with a small group, and they were doing it for us, but this is something they do all the time.

• 4:12AJ Gentile?

  Only the shaman can do that?

• 4:15AJ Gentile?

  Or what I'm getting at is, can we all learn that power?

• 4:18Speaker 06

  Okay, that is a question that's hard to say. There's obviously a period of training and introduction. Like I said, with the boys, he was passing the power, and said, "They've only got so much." We saw a number of them do this. The backstory is that, this goes back to the days of slavery, and these were people that we were in Benin at the time, or we were in both Togo and Benin, but in that area in West Africa. And, you know, most of the slaves were actually captured by Africans and that, and one of

• 4:58Speaker 06

  the things that had happened is that they had been captured, most of the people were put in one of these corrals, which was then set on fire and burned alive.

• 5:11Speaker 06

  After that, there were a few survivors who had been outside, and said, they made a deal with the fire gods, that if, you know, they would honor them in return for protection. Now, we're in an area where, if you believe, the physical evidence we saw is, they definitely could do these things. I might mention that I had taken this to a local magician, and the guys who deal with fire and say, "Okay, how do you do this?" And the answer was, "You don't."

• 5:49Speaker 06

  He had showed me the tricks of people, how they, you know, do fire things on stage and that. And part of it, frankly, is just, how much pain can you stand?

• 6:02AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 06

  How far do you go before it kicks in?

• 6:06AJ Gentile?

  But the beer doesn't singe, that doesn't-

• 6:10Speaker 06

  Well, that's why I say the laws of thermodynamics should be, if you put someone under their skin, you'll burn.

• 6:15AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 6:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, it didn't happen.

• 6:18AJ Gentile?

  Were you there on official, official capacity, or just curiosity?

• 6:21Speaker 06

  No, no, no, this was personal, and, you know, after I had retired the second time. But I wanna point out one thing, misconception about voodoo itself. Voodoo, in my view, is not just a religion, it is an entire way of life. I mean, this is, you know, people incorporate this. Met the guy there who, his job, literally, was to dream. And he was the shaman, he had been trained, and he would dream at night and come out and tell the village, you know, "Here's what's gonna happen, here's what you should do." A long training process that went into that.

• 7:03Speaker 06

  He did say he had adopted one acolyte, don't know who he is, and the villagers didn't know, but was training them to succeed him. But if you travel, again, throughout Southern Benin and Togo, and probably into Ghana, every place you go, you see the trees, and there's a white thing on it, or a white flag, that means the doctor is in. We were there, actually, we happened to hit it on the voodoo New Year's Day, when we

• 7:43Speaker 06

  had massive numbers of voodoo folks in. And, yeah, some of the things we saw, I guess one of the ones that, I don't know if you've seen this or not, again, we arrived at a voodoo ceremony that particular day, it was out of a small village, and there were several people entranced with this one woman who was just totally out of it. And they take gunpowder and put it in her hand, and it, oof, blows up. And totally unfazed, in how you do that without burning. But definitely happening.

• 8:25AJ Gentile?

  Did you go there trying to debunk it or understand it?

• 8:29Speaker 06

  Well, we tried, essentially, I kept track of the guy that was in there. I remember when Ebola broke out, and interestingly, those areas did not have a single case of Ebola, although it was around them. And his quote was, "Voodoo will protect us." Now, that's taking a big leap of faith, if you will, but, again, the evidence was, it didn't happen, so you don't know, did it just not hit that particular area? And, of course, we have a new Ebola outbreak now that's occurring.

• 9:02AJ Gentile?

  Did that, that group, that tribe have long life expectancies?

• 9:07Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 9:08AJ Gentile?

  I think that's just, I'm curious about that stuff.

• 9:12AJ Gentile?

  All right, we have to do a little bit of the biography. You gave your first UFO talk in 1947.

• 9:18Speaker 06

  Right.

• 9:20AJ Gentile?

  On the school radio in 5th grade. That was the summer flying saucer was coined.

• 9:24Speaker 06

  Right.

• 9:25AJ Gentile?

  Did you give your talk before-

• 9:28AJ Gentile?

  Before Kenneth Arnold went public?

• 9:30Speaker 06

  No, no, no. What had happened is there were a few newspaper articles. This was in La Crosse, Wisconsin, small town. And it just caught my attention as it was just becoming popular at the time. And I went to a very unique grade school. We were part of what's now the University of Wisconsin system. Then was a teachers college and they needed guinea pigs. So that was us. And we had access to the facilities of the college and they would allow students to talk on anything they wanted. And my talk that particular day was on UFOs.

• 10:09AJ Gentile?

  A couple of years back, the government wanted to launch a central bank digital currency. Full visibility into every dollar you spent. Turns out, that wasn't the real threat. The Genius Act just gave private stable coins that same surveillance power anyway. Same cage, friendlier name. Tethers already frozen $4.4 billion in wallets, working with law enforcement. No court order, just a phone call and your money's gone. And 95% of the money in this country is already digital and tracked. Every swipe, every transfer, sitting in a ledger somewhere. Meanwhile, China's building its own programmable money at home, while quietly buying physical gold for 19 straight months. They know what's coming. They just made sure they're not on the receiving end. That's the case for owning something

• 10:54AJ Gentile?

  outside the system. Physical gold and silver. No wallet to freeze, no account to flag, nothing to censor. That's why I trust the people at Golden Crest Metals. Free investment kit, free portfolio review, no pressure, and right now, up to $25,000 in bonus silver on qualifying purchases. Visit goldencrestmetals.com/thewi files, or text the word files to metals. You'll receive a free investor kit explaining how physical gold and silver can be added to an IRA or 401k, a free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell, and on qualifying purchases, up to $25,000 in bonus silver. So you've been on the case for 79 years?

• 11:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, close.

• 11:39AJ Gentile?

  More than that?

• 11:41Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, since then, yes. I was 10 at the time.

• 11:46AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. Well, speaking of 47, that's Roswell's year. Do you have a, I think you have, we're gonna get some controversial opinions today from you, which is fun.

• 11:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:57AJ Gentile?

  So what about Roswell? Was that, I never heard you say aliens, really, in any of your talks.

• 12:04Speaker 06

  What's the question?

• 12:07AJ Gentile?

  Roswell, was that a crash retrieval?

• 12:10Speaker 06

  Um.

• 12:11AJ Gentile?

  Or is that a weather balloon?

• 12:14Speaker 06

  No. I think the answer to both is probably no. But, and this, I can argue Roswell either way. One of the problems in setting, you get in however deep you go, the data never all fit into neat pockets. But I can make a strong case of, A, that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt. Remember, Roswell did not really become a thing until much, much later.

• 12:49AJ Gentile?

  Bill Moore's book, maybe, in 1980?

• 12:52Speaker 06

  Well, Stan Friedman and those guys. So for decades, it wasn't like it was in the newspaper, except in, you know, the Roswell newspaper, of course, and that. Don't think there's any doubt that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt that the government came in pretty heavy-handed. But what people forget now is the timeframe. I mean, we're talking beginning of the Cold War. We had just come out of, and I actually remember part of World War II. I was a participant, but, you know, remember some of the things

• 13:37Speaker 06

  going on. So you have to remember the public tenure at the time. And this one scared the crap out of everybody, you know. And it also, the straight story, and with a lot of documentation to it, was, remember, what's going on at the time? At that time, the US is the only atomic, as opposed to nuclear power in the world. And we knew the Soviets were working on it. So the big question was...

• 14:12AJ Gentile?

  When?

• 14:13Speaker 06

  Yeah. If they pop, you know, that changes the dynamics quite a bit. And so that they had very high-altitude sensor systems. No, they later went to seismic systems, which were, you know, better company. But, yeah, that they would have had, and it would have been super, super sensitive, and very few people. And I do know, I think it was Bill Byrne, one of the TV programs that they had. He came in and they laid out some material.

• 14:53Speaker 06

  And there were people, you know, Jesse Marcel and others, and there was another sergeant who was there, and they brought them in and said, "Do you see the same material here?" It was laid out, you know, thin films and all that. And the answer is, "Yes." And they pointed to one. And the point was, that did exist at the time. It had most of the properties. Metal with a memory, flame retardant, and all of that. Yeah, later told about, you know, you talk about the long train of debris. And what I was told by very knowledgeable

• 15:36Speaker 06

  sources was that, yes, that what he had, that these things were cut to a specific angle, looking for certain frequencies. Again, we're looking for, as a nuclear detonation occurred. And so, you know, that kind of material would have been there. I can, I talked to Bruce McAvoy, he probably knew about this at the time. And he goes, "Well, if that's true, wouldn't they have found a screw or something?"

• 16:03AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 06

  So, I don't know. But again, it, the case, you know, just dwindled immediately. It did not hit the, other cases that came along, flights over Washington and all that, many more UFO sightings came along. But Roswell is a conundrum to me.

• 16:29AJ Gentile?

  Is it?

• 16:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:31AJ Gentile?

  I think Marcel said, because he took the material home overnight, didn't he say that he was writing on some of that stuff?

• 16:36Speaker 06

  He did bring it home. And I thought Jesse Junior also was really good guy. And I've heard him talk several times. He only said what he knew. He was one of these few people that are not extrapolating into bigger. And he said, "My experience is 15 minutes." You know, "Dad brought it home. Here's what we saw." Then they took it off. Yeah, there are others who have, you know, different stories on it. And of course, you get into the bodies and all of that. And it's hard to say.

• 17:16AJ Gentile?

  We'll get into some more of that later. But I can't help myself. When you were digging around with clearance, did you look into Roswell?

• 17:24Speaker 06

  Hmm. The short answer would be no, because there wasn't much to, quote, "look into."

• 17:32AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  I mean, very aware of it, aware of all of the material. Never ran across anything in any of the files that referenced it or anything like that.

• 17:42AJ Gentile?

  Was 47 the year that the Air Force was spun out of the Army?

• 17:46Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 17:47AJ Gentile?

  Yes, okay. That's convenient.

• 17:49Speaker 06

  Well, that gets critical. As a matter of fact, when you get into like the Twining memo-

• 17:55AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 17:56Speaker 06

  And that, which was key. In fact, the memo was to the Army Air Force. Because these things were happening, you may want to talk about MJ12 and that. These are literally being formed at that time.

• 18:10AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, I mean, I have a, my notes here on things to go through in order, but it's not gonna work. My notes are not gonna work, because I have, because you bring, now you brought up MJ12. I can't help get your thoughts on that. And what about Richard Doty from OSI? I'm wondering how you feel about him.

• 18:32Speaker 06

  We had met, probably, well, when we met, he was with the New Mexico State Police. He told us a story that could not possibly be true.

• 18:42AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 18:43Speaker 06

  In fairness, they were guessing who I was. I was there with Scott Hale Putoff, and they were guessing who I was, and guessed wrong, and thought I was from DIA, and I was actually not retired at Los Alamos. And he told me this very fanciful story about, you know, a building I had been in that week. I'm saying, no, not the way it's built. And also, a lot of the stories that came up, again, we're now talking early 90s, critical

• 19:24Speaker 06

  here, the timing, because Cold War, you know, Soviet Union has just fell. And with that, Atlanta, and a lot of other places, of course, we went into the peace dividend, probably way too early, but the issue was that a lot of places that were, quote, "behind the fence," no longer, you know, had guards at the gate, the gate, fences were still up, but people would come and go and whatnot, so, um, no, I've just, I guess I just in the last week saw a preposterous thing, you know, come from SF background,

• 20:06Speaker 06

  and the claim was that Delta Force were specifically trained and equipped in this, and, um, sorry, I'm still associated with that field.

• 20:22AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 20:23Speaker 06

  We go into it, um, yeah, not, not happening.

• 20:26AJ Gentile?

  So MJ12, the documents, I go back and forth also, because I don't like the Bill Moore, Jamie Shandere part of that story, how they found them in the mail, they found them in the archives, but the documents are still compelling, so where do you stand on MJ12?

• 20:42Speaker 06

  Hey, it was real.

• 20:44AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 20:45Speaker 06

  That list is probably real, and probably had absolutely nothing to do with UFOs.

• 20:50AJ Gentile?

  Wow. So what would be the purpose of that, just counterintelligence?

• 20:55Speaker 06

  It was something called COG, Continuity of Government.

• 21:00AJ Gentile?

  Oh, of course.

• 21:02Speaker 06

  Which was super, that is one of the few things that I had asked Phil Klein, I said, "What about?" And he says, "We're not discussing that." So there were times, and this is now in the 80s, but the creation of continuity of government, now this became public knowledge, you know, when Greenbrier, they found out the Greenbrier place had been, had a big underground facility.

• 21:29AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, the hotel.

• 21:30Speaker 06

  It was where you would whisk the government to, in case of, and it was to prevent nuclear decapitation, and the continuity was a continuation of the government which exists, didn't have that.

• 21:44AJ Gentile?

  If people don't know, there's like a mini congressional hall in there.

• 21:48Speaker 06

  Well, it's, as I understand, there may be pieces of this still classified as whatnot, because you are still concerned about what happens to the government under catastrophic circumstances.

• 22:02AJ Gentile?

  This should always be a concern.

• 22:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, but, um, if you look at that list, remember what Stanton had talked about this too, and he was saying like Menzel, for instance, who was a very anti-UFO guy and that, that had to, that he was reading A Double Life, according to Stanton, um...

• 22:26AJ Gentile?

  He wasn't he?

• 22:27Speaker 06

  No.

• 22:28AJ Gentile?

  No, I thought he had clearance, he was an asset.

• 22:30Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, but if you look at it from a position of something for COG, that list of people makes total sense, and you don't have to do backflips on any of them.

• 22:43AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 22:44Speaker 06

  I mean, you have nuclear, there are people who understood nuclear weapons and that, this gets terribly complex as to what could be done, the amount of damage that was done, blast radiation, radiation continuance, et cetera, um, yeah, that group is the one exactly, and Truman is the one who put it in place, and supposedly not taking notes and that, but that explanation fits without any...

• 23:17AJ Gentile?

  It does, it does, so where, so James Forrestal, what about that conspiracy? Did he?

• 23:25Speaker 06

  Which one?

• 23:26AJ Gentile?

  His death.

• 23:27Speaker 06

  I mean, he died after, you know, something, he was drugged or something, you know, it did fall to his death and that, but, um, I, I have a hard time making a leap, therefore, you know, some nefarious group assassinated him or something.

• 23:47AJ Gentile?

  Well, that's why I like your, um, that, really, that's your, your whole thesis is you've got all these great, some would say wild claims, but you're also a skeptic, I think.

• 23:58Speaker 06

  Well, you know, my current thinking is a little different than it was, and, uh...

• 24:06AJ Gentile?

  How so?

• 24:07Speaker 06

  Well, that's primarily because some of the people who come forward, who are personal friends, and who are very highly located, well-placed, et cetera, and this is when you get into the, quote, "The Legacy Program," per se, um, that varies considerably from my firsthand experience.

• 24:30AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, I mean...

• 24:31Speaker 06

  And, you know, some I just end up with, can't really tell, and I think the, well, you had Jeremy, for instance, come forward, I mean, that's their whole thing is in, but the question, I think, is, are you tracking down what are UFOs, or UAPs, or whatever, or is your whole thing on, "I want to crack the government"?

• 24:58AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, I mean, what does George think about it? I think he cares more about government transparency than...

• 25:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:06AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 06

  Well, I was going to get into this, but in my view, I think the entire approach is wrong now, and yes, the government does have data, but I don't think this fits very well with governments, per se. I think that a better model of how to approach would be consider the human genome, where you had multiple countries, the major thing is sharing data. I would also compare it to cancer, because it's ubiquitous, it is, you know, many different forms, it morphs, it changes and all that.

• 25:52Speaker 06

  The government has a role to play in this, but it is not the role that you have, you know, many people, different government, and the problem that I see at the moment, what the government brings to the table, of course, at the moment, are really good sensor systems, and I can make a strong case for why some of that should be classified, because you don't want to tell people what are your operating parameters, what you can see, what you can't see, and measure, et cetera, so that, I can say, on the top end, you won't have it. Having said that, this is a global phenomenon, and in my view, the government, you know,

• 26:35Speaker 06

  can't put it back in, put the genie back in the bottle, it's happening all over, and now with this, you know, we have what rings on every door, and cell phones and this, and the data is just overwhelming.

• 26:51AJ Gentile?

  I mean, police body cameras, you're seeing stuff, yeah. Um, yeah, some of this is on my list, but since we're here, anyway, and, actually, let's, yeah, let's stay, let's stay on this for a second, uh, because I, you always bring up Slomansky, but I, but no, Henry Slomansky?

• 27:11Speaker 06

  Slomansky?

• 27:13AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 06

  You want to go into martial arts area?

• 27:17AJ Gentile?

  Well, what I found fascinating about him was his MOS.

• 27:21Speaker 06

  The Japanese, hanging the Japanese war criminals.

• 27:24AJ Gentile?

  He was a hangman?

• 27:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 27:26AJ Gentile?

  It was, is that still in the manual, that MOS?

• 27:30Speaker 06

  No, don't think so.

• 27:31AJ Gentile?

  Oh, God.

• 27:32Speaker 06

  Again, you've got to look at the time. Now, when I worked for Slomansky, you got to remember, I was a brand-new E5 at the time. I had gone to Ranger School, and because that was the only way you were going to get promoted, you're coming out of Korea, so promotions just not happening, but if you went to Ranger School, you automatically got promoted to E5, and I went back, and then I went to the Fort Campbell Jump School as an instructor, you know, a 20-year-old black hat yelling and saying, "Okay, son, you know, son," you know, these kids are, I'm older

• 28:13Speaker 06

  than I am, certainly, and the ground training NCO was Henry Slomansky, and, um, he was, well, his big thing, he had lived in Japan for a long period of time, as well as hanging a few of the criminals, and had become a major figure, kind of, he was commissioner, I think, for the Western Hemisphere, was the title, and the big thing was that he had entered, he had been training, but, um, the story was that he had entered a major contest,

• 28:52Speaker 06

  and this was back in the day, still full contact and all of that, and of course, a foreigner being in there was not favorable, and ended up, I think, defeating 110 or 111 Japanese, and really gaining their respect at the time.

• 29:16AJ Gentile?

  What was his system that he trained in?

• 29:19Speaker 06

  I, I'd have to look it up.

• 29:21AJ Gentile?

  I was just curious.

• 29:22Speaker 06

  I probably have it in there, but, um...

• 29:25AJ Gentile?

  Oh, they had to hate him.

• 29:28Speaker 06

  Well, yes and no. Of course, one of the things, like I say, respect is when he whipped their ass, you know, and got, I mean, they expected him just to be eliminated almost immediately in the thing, and it didn't happen, and ended up, like I say, more than a hundred about in a period of two days to get up there. So it's...

• 29:53AJ Gentile?

  A hundred fights in two days?

• 29:56Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, it was a, I believe it was a two-day, you know, elimination approach.

• 30:03AJ Gentile?

  Wow. Um, okay, so Special Forces, I want to know...

• 30:10Speaker 06

  By the way, you know, his final job, not his final job, but he became a chaplain.

• 30:16AJ Gentile?

  That's right. I heard you mention that.

• 30:18Speaker 06

  In the hospital, a hospital chaplain. Kind of a big shift has happened with many of us.

• 30:27AJ Gentile?

  It is, but surrounded by death on both sides. What an interesting character. He would be a good subject for a biography, that man.

• 30:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:37AJ Gentile?

  Or a movie. Um, at camp in Cambodia, you had a Buddhist temple inside the wire.

• 30:45Speaker 06

  This is Vietnam.

• 30:47AJ Gentile?

  That was Vietnam. Why was, why did you have a Buddhist temple in there and what...

• 30:52Speaker 04

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• 31:33Speaker 04

  including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 31:52AJ Gentile?

  What did you and the monks talk about?

• 31:55Speaker 06

  Hey, we didn't talk much. Although, my timeframe, again, this is 68, height of the, I was there for the quote, Tet Offensive and that sort of thing. Um, the camp had been established and there was a small mountain, a small hill, actually, fifty some feet up. And, by the way, this is in the Delta. There was actually this area called Seven Mountains in the Delta. Most of the Delta is, you know, perfectly flat and wet and, and they had these

• 32:38Speaker 06

  big mountains where major fighting was going on. And, um, yeah, we, um, why the temple was, it was there when I arrived. One of the main things, though, my main interpreter there, we called him Mike, had actually been a monk for six years, so did have some, you know, that was a personal discussion. However, on the top of this little hill, I'm saying, there was a small enclosure and we'd always have somebody on top and, and people were located in different places in case you got hit. You didn't want to lose everything at

• 33:23Speaker 06

  once. And I can remember, because we usually stay up pretty late on that and going to sleep and waking up, being surrounded by monks, you know, chanting, you know, kind of, oh, an interesting awakening.

• 33:39AJ Gentile?

  I bet. Did you talk to them about consciousness and near-death experiences, anything like that?

• 33:45Speaker 06

  Oh, no, no, no. NDEs don't even come, remember, this is 68, Raymond and Elizabeth don't come into the field until mid seventies.

• 33:56AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 33:57Speaker 06

  The first discussions, so...

• 33:59AJ Gentile?

  But before, I think Moody coined the phrase, but they were still existed?

• 34:05Speaker 06

  Well, there, I have an interesting model someplace that, in fact, I wrote and published it in, I don't know which journal, but it was that you, basically, is you have events that occur, something. And that's kind of interesting, one Z's and two Z's, and then you go out and then you find, oh, well, there's really more of them. And then you go out and you find out, well, gee, there's a huge number of studies. And then you do study of studies. And when you do that, you find out, oh, this started happening long before the zero patient, if you will. And, um, so that's one of the ones where, yes, there

• 34:49Speaker 06

  have always been. Now, we, you know, go back to Er and Plato and things and you find out it was there, you just didn't notice it before.

• 35:00AJ Gentile?

  I think it's a great resource to have Buddhist monks to talk to about that stuff.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  Well, like I say, that was, the timeframe is off by a decade or so.

• 35:14AJ Gentile?

  Yep. We'll get into Raymond Moody a little bit later, too, because he's fascinating. He's changed my thinking on quite a few things, Raymond Moody. And Kula Ross, too. You mentioned Elizabeth.

• 35:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:28AJ Gentile?

  You knew everybody.

• 35:29Speaker 06

  Well, Elizabeth was the head of my doctoral committee. And, and that's one of these strange stories. And I had answered some questions before, and one of them was, was there an event that changed it? No, there are just so many of them. What had happened is, I was in a O E school in California and had seen some tapes where she was now talking about near-death experiences. This would have been 77, 78 timeframe. And she had come

• 36:09Speaker 06

  to lecture. And then there was a workshop that I attended on my, on my own. And it was very unusual in that about 50% of the people who were in attendance were medical professionals. About a quarter of the people were like me, just kind of interested. The other quarter were dying.

• 36:33AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 36:35Speaker 06

  So, from an emotional, I mean, this is really an intense kind of workshop, very different. And, um, so I had, I was stationed at Fort McPherson in Atlanta at the time, and I just sent her a letter. There was kind of a, gee, thanks. It was very impactful and whatnot, because these do get emotionally intense.

• 37:00AJ Gentile?

  I bet.

• 37:01Speaker 06

  As you can imagine. Um, well, a few weeks later, we had secretaries at the time, came in and said, you know, you got a call from Elizabeth, her assistant. Okay. And the call was, says, well, Elizabeth is going to be coming through Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her? Now, these, remember, you could still go out to the gate and all of that. And she has several hours there. Can you meet her? Well, of course. And I was getting ready to work on a dissertation in a different area, but in behavioral science. And so she

• 37:45Speaker 06

  arrives and I said, I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. She says, what's that? Would you, you know, work on the committee? She says, oh, yes. Didn't want to get into models and things, but anyway, that's one of those events. And her other comment was, look, I know a thousand people in Atlanta and I chose you to call and I have no idea why. That's when I said, I think I'm supposed to ask a question.

• 38:14AJ Gentile?

  Yes. Do you believe in synchronicities and things like that? How do you not?

• 38:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. We'll probably get into the generic consciousness sorts of things, but, you know, that is one of many that have occurred. And so you say, is there a single event? No, there's just those that happen and happen. My probability throughout the military career is totally impossible. You know, like you said, Colonel, my probability of making Colonel is below zero, because I had not done, you were supposed to do certain things. And technically,

• 39:03Speaker 06

  I was an infantry officer. I'd spent most of my time in Special Forces and doing other sorts of things at two tours ever in the infantry. And so, like, when the board came out, I was getting ready to retire. I said, okay, that's, it's been fun. But, like I say, the probabilities are just impossible.

• 39:27AJ Gentile?

  Why was it so hard? I mean, you were enlisted as private and I think they call you guys a Mustang. Come up hard, come up hard way.

• 39:35Speaker 06

  I was, well, when I went to OCS kicking and screaming.

• 39:42AJ Gentile?

  You didn't want to go to OCS?

• 39:43Speaker 06

  No, not really.

• 39:45AJ Gentile?

  What did you want to do?

• 39:46Speaker 06

  Well, by this time, I was an E7, one of the youngest in the Army, in a Sergeant Major position. I mean, that's just impossible.

• 39:56AJ Gentile?

  What year were you, did you get promoted to E7?

• 39:59Speaker 06

  Um, 62, 63, somewhere in there. I'd have to go back and check, check the records.

• 40:08AJ Gentile?

  So you're only in six or seven years? Only about six years?

• 40:11Speaker 06

  It was fast, yeah. And there were a whole set, again, synchronicities that happened that could allow for that. And, um, yeah. So for me, Sergeant Majors were gods.

• 40:26AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 40:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. Why would I want to be one of them?

• 40:31AJ Gentile?

  So you wanted, you wanted to just stay with the infantry? You didn't want to make...

• 40:36Speaker 06

  No, I was S F, Special Forces.

• 40:38AJ Gentile?

  Right. So you wanted to stay there?

• 40:40Speaker 06

  Pretty much. I mean, that was, yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 06

  More interested in special operations than, of course, then they got promoted. I was a special forces medic, then in the operations slot, and then after OCS, it would be a short time after that that Vietnam was heating up, and that I went back on active duty, and the rest is history.

• 41:12AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. There's a part of your story that amazes me. Between assignments, you were scuba diving the Bermuda Triangle, looking for pre-cataclysm civilizations? What did you find, and why did you do that?

• 41:29Speaker 06

  Why did I do it? But this time, I'm quite interested. This is now sixty-nine-ish, maybe seventy.

• 41:39AJ Gentile?

  Oh, so you're actually between tours?

• 41:41Speaker 06

  Well, yeah. The reality was at that time, but now I'm commissioned, I'm a captain. I had been come out of Vietnam already.

• 41:52AJ Gentile?

  You're captain already?

• 41:53Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Well, remember, in Vietnam, that went, you know, it was two years to captain. So rightly or wrongly, they say, "War, what do you get? Promotions." So, yeah, we, I was, most of the time, taking any period, long period of leave, you just didn't do that, just because of the jobs you were in and whatnot. And so if you were gonna be off for a few weeks, it was between assignments. And I think that's where, where was I coming from?

• 42:36Speaker 06

  I think, not sure where I was coming from, but I was going to Fort Benning to go to the career course, if you will. But I had time, I was from Miami area, I lived there at times, so in fact, when I was in Vietnam, my family had stayed there. And I had also run into people that had done some pretty unique research into the Bimini Wall, and what in fact, Jay Manson Valentine is the one who found the area, and a couple

• 43:21Speaker 06

  of, there's some twins that I knew, hate this, we could, reaching way, way back, but had introduced me and had an opportunity to go out and actually dive on it. I have problems with the explanation that it's pens or something like this, because it took both of, there was a thing, I think it was eighteen hundred meters long, and when you dive on it, you dive this side, it's ocean, here are a whole series of rocks that are very clearly placed in there, huge, and you pull them out the other side, it's not there.

• 44:05Speaker 06

  And you could free dive it, so you didn't need tanks or anything to do it. So, yeah. Another area of interest, even more so now, is, I am not a fan of out of Africa for the invasion, and I think we're finding more and more evidence that particularly in Western Hemisphere, our notion of history has got to be wrong. There were huge pockets of civilization where you just can't get there from here, if you

• 44:47Speaker 06

  use the typical out of Africa approach. Not to mention, as you know, they go, "Well, they call Magna, and you meet Denisovians, and you go, well, and then you meet, and you go, well, where did they come from? Why were these little, you know, pockets of population there?" And when you get into Central and South America, and this is much more recently, but when you go through, particularly in Central America, and you see all these mounds that are there, basically every mound is a temple, they just haven't been excavated yet. And we're doing more with LiDARs, you know, looking in, coming out, finding larger and

• 45:32Speaker 06

  larger groups, and I find that's true all the way down into Madagascar. Had, I remember being in Eca, in Peru, and seeing the mummies there, and they were going, I said, "Well, where they gave?" And they gave me the illusion chain, and then, you know, Cold Game, and you go, "But you asked why? Why didn't you do some bitter DNA testing and things?" And the answer was funding, quite frankly. But the more that we're looking, you're finding larger and larger population centers throughout.

• 46:13Speaker 06

  You get in Madagascar for instance, there are areas in Brazil.

• 46:18AJ Gentile?

  And they're finding these giant roads connecting all these places.

• 46:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, that's the point, yeah.

• 46:26AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, they keep revising the date backwards, farther and farther.

• 46:30Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 46:31AJ Gentile?

  Were you looking for Atlantis?

• 46:33Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 46:34AJ Gentile?

  You were looking for Atlantis, so...

• 46:35Speaker 06

  Well, I had certainly heard, you know, beyond the pillars of Hercules, there's the continents of Atlantis. So that's sort of what it was listed as. Can't say it was Atlantis per se, certainly didn't, was not continental in form, but there was something there that was pretty damn big, and no, I don't think it was fish pens or something like that.

• 47:03AJ Gentile?

  So there's no question that Bimini is man-made, but we just don't know what it was for?

• 47:09Speaker 06

  Bimini's islands, or a series of islands.

• 47:13AJ Gentile?

  I mean, Bimini Road.

• 47:14Speaker 06

  The Bimini, in my view, yeah. I do not see that, well, certainly man-made, and certainly not simple, you know, explanation of them, way, way too big.

• 47:28AJ Gentile?

  Why do you think there's such pushback on the theory of a pre, like a pre-Diluvian civilization? Why resist that?

• 47:36Speaker 06

  Well, part of it's just generic history. There's two things, and one I'm sure we'll get into, and that is literally worldview, and we've been kind of bouncing around the outside of this already. But one is a pure materialistic, you know, we're gonna go back and get to the God particle or something like that. And the other that I tend to support is more like Max Planck, that says, "You can't get behind consciousness," and I, the idea that consciousness arises, or the physical arises

• 48:16Speaker 06

  from consciousness, as opposed to, you know, something we generate in a few pounds of meat.

• 48:24AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. I tend to believe the same thing, but I don't know who created it in the first place. Was consciousness here before the Big Bang?

• 48:34Speaker 06

  Consciousness is.

• 48:36AJ Gentile?

  It is.

• 48:37Speaker 06

  I get that question, and it's kind of hard to explain. And in our, you know, the worldview, again, that we brought up, the standard review, of course, we're seeing a huge shift now between classical physics to quantum. My best quote on that was from John Feynman, who had been at Los Alamos, as you know, and he goes, "Anybody who says they understand quantum mechanics doesn't."

• 49:10AJ Gentile?

  That's right. That's a great quote. We're coming up at a break, but I can't help but ask, did you, you were friendly with Ed Teller?

• 49:20Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 49:21AJ Gentile?

  Did you and Teller ever discuss Max Planck's theories about consciousness?

• 49:27Speaker 06

  No.

• 49:28AJ Gentile?

  I would have loved to get his, I'd be picking his brain.

• 49:31Speaker 06

  We did do UFOs, and we may want to discuss some of that.

• 49:35AJ Gentile?

  I will.

• 49:36Speaker 06

  A bit longer, but, yeah, no, and as you know, had him over, literally over for dinner several times, and because more interested initially in what's his take on UFOs.

• 49:50AJ Gentile?

  What did he think?

• 49:52Speaker 06

  The quote was, "You're looking in the wrong place." And he did not mean by that in looking in the wrong files, he was talking about telescopes and things like that. But again, we're still talking at a time when even my thinking was, we're talking physical hard craft, and we're crap flying around.

• 50:19Speaker 06

  But Anna had, by this time, had already had the advanced theoretical physics, I'm sure you've got into some of that.

• 50:27AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, we'll get into that.

• 50:29Speaker 06

  So we had a lot of cases, and now, he was interested in cash landrum.

• 50:36AJ Gentile?

  He was?

• 50:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:38AJ Gentile?

  What drew him to that case? That's 1980.

• 50:41Speaker 06

  Radiation.

• 50:42AJ Gentile?

  Radiation.

• 50:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, cash landrum is December of 1980.

• 50:46AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 50:47Speaker 06

  And, but, I mean, his thing, radiation.

• 50:51AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 50:52Speaker 06

  The idea of people being irradiated in that, you know, that was, got some personal interest.

• 50:58AJ Gentile?

  All right, we'll take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about the new mental battlefield.

• 51:03Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 51:04AJ Gentile?

  All right, we'll be right back. Okay, in December 1980, you published the new mental battlefield, sent it to Military Review.

• 51:12Speaker 06

  Right.

• 51:13AJ Gentile?

  Expected them to reject it, and they put it on the cover.

• 51:15Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 51:16AJ Gentile?

  Who was the editor? What was he like?

• 51:18Speaker 06

  No, that was key, and another one of these serendipitous events. Yeah, I was attending in a Command General Staff College at Leavenworth, not terribly challenging, and so I wrote the article, because I was interested in these various weird shit things. Um, like I said, I had, really didn't think, because I went into remote viewing and psychokinesis and, of course, at that time, a book that had recently come out was Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain. And so, what are the Soviets doing and all that? By the way, I keep slipping between Soviet and Russia in the wild, I don't understand

• 52:02Speaker 06

  the difference, but most of my life was in the Soviet era. So we were very concerned about what they were doing. So I wrote the article, and it turns out, and I don't remember the editor's name, but I got to meet him, he'd had a near-death experience, and had been out of body. And that's how the thing got from not only printed, to the front, front cover of the magazine. Um, so it came out, by, by the time it came out, I'm now in Washington, in the Pentagon, assigned as the Department of Army Inspector General. And frankly, it came out, you know, not, not a whole lot of it.

• 52:47Speaker 06

  However, there was a, you know, Jack Anderson?

• 52:50AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:51Speaker 06

  Okay. So Jack Anderson picks up on this, and he writes the story, "The voodoo warriors of the Pentagon," you know, "Ain't it awful? Look at all the Pentagon's wasting your money." And, of course, he was syndicated, so this went out wildly. I got to meet the guy, it turns out, he hadn't written the article, I forget the guy's name, who, he took that and wrote a book. What happened was, said they got more response to that article than anything he had ever written, and it was 99% against them. Everybody was saying, "Well, of course, the Soviets are doing this, we ought to be doing that," and, and whatnot.

• 53:32Speaker 06

  Which was not, what, and he actually showed me the draft article, which was written positively, and they just flipped a few words from, "Look at the neat stuff they're doing," to, "Look at how they're wasting your money," and whatnot. Um, fast forward, after that happens, again, I'm literally in the bowels of the Pentagon, and this Lieutenant Colonel comes roaring out, "Now, did you write this article?" And I said, "Yeah." "Now, don't you know the process for getting it cleared?" "Yes, why?" And, why I had the file there, I don't know, but I happened to have one that says, "What

• 54:17Speaker 06

  office are you from?"

• 54:18AJ Gentile?

  (laughing)

• 54:19Speaker 06

  And he would've been from Axi, Assistant Chief of Staff. Partly, just fast forward a number of years later, and we're doing a spoon-bending party, and, um, the guy raises his hand, and he's, Colonel's finding, "Uh, did you write such an article on it?" I said, "Yeah." "Would you like to meet the guy who cleared it?"

• 54:42AJ Gentile?

  Wow, he was there at the spoon-bending party?

• 54:45Speaker 06

  Well, this was an official event, so it, all the people there were military.

• 54:52AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 54:53Speaker 06

  But the point is, he'd gotten his ass handed to him.

• 54:55AJ Gentile?

  Oh, he did?

• 54:56Speaker 06

  For, for letting it out, you know, they, he may or may not have known about, I think it was a grill flame at the time, uh, but, um...

• 55:06AJ Gentile?

  Oh, pre-Stargate.

• 55:07Speaker 06

  Oh, long. It went through several iterations of the same program, but his name...

• 55:12AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 55:13Speaker 06

  Changed, and locations, and things like that. Uh, but, uh, it was all under Axi, the Assistant Chief of Staff, uh, for intelligence, and so, that was the office who came in screaming, because, but this gets into the compartmentalization, where part of people know what's going on, and other people don't, and it didn't raise any flags at the time that it went in, you know?

• 55:40AJ Gentile?

  So, you brought up the spoon-bending parties. Can you tell me a little bit about Stubblebine? What was he like in, I mean, did he really try to walk through walls and...

• 55:50Speaker 06

  No.

• 55:51AJ Gentile?

  Do stuff with the clouds?

• 55:53Speaker 06

  No, well, the clouds are real.

• 55:55AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 55:56Speaker 06

  I used to do that, you know, you can actually do that.

• 56:00AJ Gentile?

  You can make clouds?

• 56:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, disappear, yeah. And what you do is, in order to know that it was the right one, is you got kind of a chain, and, and you gotta identify which one you're working with, kind of hard to explain, but, yeah, mentally, you can bust clouds.

• 56:18AJ Gentile?

  You can do it?

• 56:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 56:20AJ Gentile?

  How do you know they're just not doing that on their own?

• 56:22Speaker 06

  Well, that's, the point there is, like I say, you have a series, and you pick one, and you pick it, you know, that one, and the ones next to it don't disappear.

• 56:33AJ Gentile?

  Right, don't do it.

• 56:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, and only the one that you're working on does. Um, highly, I don't know of any scientific data that would back it up, my personal experience is, yeah, we, we did that, so that part was done. One of the things, um, about Stubblebine was, A, was he very interested in the field and, and all of that. Uh, what was done on, generally, at the time, is he was one of these people who was allergic to, like, bee stings or a thing, and so, he was going out to Walter Reed, and constantly getting shots, trying to, you know, from a military perspective, it's not good.

• 57:17Speaker 06

  In fact, I got evacuated once on bee stings in Vietnam, we call them VCBs, but, uh, you know, where you get multiple stings, uh, very quickly, so he couldn't do that. So, this was a Gedanken thing, he says, "Well, if, if I'm mostly air, or, you know, vacuum, and, uh, the needle is mostly made up of nothing, then we ought to be able to interpenetrate without doing that." But I have no indication he ever ran into a wall, or anything, you know, like that.

• 57:54AJ Gentile?

  But he did believe that everything is made up of mostly nothing?

• 57:57Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, well, that's true.

• 57:58AJ Gentile?

  It's true.

• 57:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, even, just from a pure atomic level, remember, most of the stuff is not matter, it's space in between.

• 58:09AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 58:10Speaker 06

  So the idea would be to interpenetrate, you know, if I push this way, then it hurts, but if I can slip between, it may not hit pain receptors.

• 58:20AJ Gentile?

  So the spoon-bending parties, were those Stubblebine, or is that Hauck?

• 58:24Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 58:26AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, it's okay.

• 58:27Speaker 06

  No, what happened, we had heard about Jack, um, Jack Hauck, by the way, he's from, no, no, he was an aerospace engineer at McDonnell Douglas.

• 58:43AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:44Speaker 06

  And, um, he had, actually, this, Uri comes in as well, Uri was kind of the model, so he'd heard about these things, and so, Jack developed a process where, basically, anybody could do it. Uh, and that, what happened was that, um, we had heard about, he was coming, he was actually a contractor for CIA, uh, at the time, working on, which brought him back and forth to the Washington area.

• 59:14AJ Gentile?

  Uri Geller was?

• 59:15Speaker 06

  No, this is, Jack Hauck.

• 59:18AJ Gentile?

  Hauck.

• 59:19Speaker 06

  Jack, great guy, um, in fact, we got him the Dinsdale Award for it, he was very interested in these areas. He had developed, anyway, he had developed a kind of a, what we called PK Parties, or PKMB. And so, uh, some friends had him over and attended that, and, and saw, "Hmm, that's kind of interesting," so I went to Bert and said, "Hey, you know, hey, this is real, let's set it up." Uh, so, we had, uh, an event at my apartment, it was in Northern Virginia, you know Andrea Pohorich, or folks like that?

• 59:58AJ Gentile?

  Very well.

• 59:59Speaker 06

  Well, Andrea was there, as a matter of fact, and, probably don't know Ted Rockwell?

• 1:00:05AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  Ted's key, because Ted is, or was, now, now he had his own business, he was Rickover's technical director. And he brought, uh, with him, and Gaiman, who is, uh, quite an effective medium and that, so we had a number, I guess I, there was an ambassador there, and some others, and we ended up, we're sitting around, literally on the floor, in kind of, you know, quasi-circle, and, still not quite sure, but you start, and when you start, you, you can use some physical force, and you, you talk them through it, and you can feel, most feel a perceptual

• 1:00:50Speaker 06

  change in, in the material and all of that. So, we were doing that, and it turns out, Bert was sitting directly across from Ann Gaiman, and she's one, we get to the final section, where you hold a pair of forks, match forks, you know, and no physical force allowed, and all of a sudden, the thing goes, whoop, and we went, "Oh, shit."

• 1:01:18AJ Gentile?

  Did you expect that to happen?

• 1:01:20Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:01:20AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:01:21Speaker 06

  Well, I kinda hoped, but the idea that it happened that dramatically and directly across from him and absolutely no physical force.

• 1:01:37Speaker 06

  This is real. Sometimes, it's not like, and I ask all the time, when you bend the fork, A, don't demonstrate. And it's more because of, and this is why we went to the PK partying and Bert would bring, you know, the senior folks in.

• 1:01:58Speaker 06

  Because if I bend it, you can give me a hundred reasons how. And yes, there are tricks and like they have trained with, you know, I don't know if you know Alan New. He's a local magician here. And that's kind of one of his sticks now. However, he does believe we got involved because, you know, he does believe that it can be done real, but there are ways to manipulate it.

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• 1:02:48Speaker 03

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• 1:02:54Speaker 06

  So, the idea, in fact, in taking us to, see Bert would have love-ins. INSCOM is a unit around the world. I mean, and we supplied the people to the listening station of NSA and all of that.

• 1:03:11AJ Gentile?

  But what's INSCOM for folks who don't know?

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  Intelligence and Security Command. They're now at Fort Belvoir, they were at Arlington Hall at the time.

• 1:03:21Speaker 06

  Two-star command, but you have these Colonel-level command all over the world. So they'd bring them in about once a quarter. You know, what's going on, what are you gonna do, planning for next night? And so periodically, we would do it.

• 1:03:38Speaker 06

  By the way, these were not universally thought to be a good thing.

• 1:03:41AJ Gentile?

  I bet not.

• 1:03:43Speaker 06

  There were a lot of people very resistant. But his reason for doing it was not to bend spoons. And I always used to get asked, are you gonna do bend tank barrels? No. And this is the early 80s already, but computers. You know, that's where I think the vulnerability actually is. But the idea...

• 1:04:09AJ Gentile?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  But the idea was more, doing it with his commanders to say, don't disregard things just because you don't understand it. Because we had been blindsided. You remember Sputnik? There were a number of Soviet advances that really caught us off-guard. And you go back and you look and they, well, the information was there.

• 1:04:36Speaker 06

  But, well, the classic one is one that you actually talked about in a program that had to do with the submarines. And it was Joe McMonigal is the one who had done that. But he came up, you know, they had asked him, this is the remote game program now. They'd given him, in that case, geographic coordinates, a bit changed. But, and he says, well, there's this big ass submarine and it's dual-hulled and the tubes are forward to the sail and a whole bunch of things that were different.

• 1:05:11Speaker 06

  And they sent it to our boat builders and that bullshit.

• 1:05:14AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:05:14Speaker 06

  You know, we don't have any information. And besides, if you built something that big, when it went to depth, it would crush. And then the clouds parted and the cameras came on. And there's the Typhoon-class submarine.

• 1:05:27AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. There it is.

• 1:05:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31AJ Gentile?

  With double hulls and all that.

• 1:05:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, but the point, man, it was, oh, as Joe had outlined. But his point was, no, we've been blindsided enough. So just because you get things you don't believe, now you've had an experience of seeing things that would happen like that. It's a reminder that, you know, check it out. Don't just classically disregard it.

• 1:05:58AJ Gentile?

  Can we see some of the silverware?

• 1:06:00Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:03AJ Gentile?

  These are amazing.

• 1:06:04Speaker 06

  Another program.

• 1:06:08Speaker 06

  What I brought with me is these are literally the actual forks that happen. I have tape on because I normally keep them stuck. Now, you gotta, what happens is that at the end,

• 1:06:23Speaker 06

  what we call the graduate school, you hold them loosely.

• 1:06:28Speaker 06

  And so this took place at Xerox Center. And we had, again, the folks from all over the world, mostly 06s, if you will, 5s, a couple generals. And so I'm in this kind of a semicircle, I'm in front. And there's two rows and these guys yell. And this thing had dropped a full 90 degrees, which I did not see.

• 1:06:56AJ Gentile?

  Were you holding it?

• 1:06:57Speaker 06

  No, no, no.

• 1:06:58AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:06:58Speaker 06

  This is, I'll get to why I have them.

• 1:07:01AJ Gentile?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:07:01Speaker 06

  Hold, these are the actual fork. But what happens then, well, I had GS-18, a science advisor is the one who saw it drop. And these people yell, but I'm also frankly, a little skeptical that somebody's not putting me on. Because remember, these people are not happy.

• 1:07:19AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:07:20Speaker 06

  That we're doing this on hallowed grounds. But then, like I say, this drops over, it comes back up to straight up, goes back down and back to where it literally waved. Now, that's an N of 1. I saw that once. These are the ones. And the reason I have them is the guy put them down and said, I wish that hadn't happened. I mean, really scared him.

• 1:07:49AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:07:50Speaker 06

  And because normally, when we do these things, people take all the stuff home with them, which is fine. And normally, that's what would have happened. There were some other major bends that took place last night. And whoever did it, did take them with them. You can tell if that's...

• 1:08:09AJ Gentile?

  Oh, you can tell?

• 1:08:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. But the point is, because the only time I saw N's drop that once, a full 90 degrees, I saw, this was the only one where we actually saw it, you know, kind of literally wave at us.

• 1:08:27Speaker 06

  Understanding, because he was assigned in Europe. And Sullivan was over on another trip and saw him. Said he did it once more at home and put it down and said, never again.

• 1:08:41AJ Gentile?

  So who is bending it?

• 1:08:43Speaker 06

  Well, this Colonel.

• 1:08:43AJ Gentile?

  The Colonel was?

• 1:08:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:08:44AJ Gentile?

  And he didn't expect it to work?

• 1:08:47Speaker 06

  He did not want it to work.

• 1:08:49AJ Gentile?

  I understand that.

• 1:08:50Speaker 06

  This is a personal, you know, scaring him. Now, one of the things, and we haven't gone in, is the work of the devil in all of these things. This is a major issue. I mean, not to be taken trivial. As you know, you get into UFO, we have the, you know, Vice President now talking about demons that are out there and all. But I had, well, when the article came out, a number of friends that I talked to, again, I'm in the building, and they're going like, that's the work of the devil, we shouldn't be doing that. And as a matter of fact, a good rationale why the program moved

• 1:09:36Speaker 06

  from the Army to Defense Intelligence Agency. And had Chief of Staff of the Army, well, fundamentalist Christian.

• 1:09:46Speaker 06

  And those issues had never gone away.

• 1:09:49AJ Gentile?

  Where do you stand on that? Do you think it's some type of spiritual warfare or anything like that?

• 1:09:56Speaker 06

  That's a very different question.

• 1:09:58AJ Gentile?

  Is it?

• 1:09:59Speaker 06

  Yeah. Is it spiritual warfare or whatnot? I do think there's a spiritual domain that we're getting into. And this is where, you know, all of these things come together. And it's back into consciousness and all of that. But you added another word and that was warfare.

• 1:10:19AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:10:21Speaker 06

  Does it happen now?

• 1:10:24Speaker 06

  One of my problems with many of the organized religions is that they set up dogma.

• 1:10:34Speaker 06

  I'll digress a bit. I said, Kubla Ross had been the head of my doctoral committee. And while I was doing the dissertation, she made me change one word. That was from religious to spiritual. And it made a major difference in the outcome of a thing. And many of the people said, I don't like the dogma of the church, but I have a spiritual relationship with spring being whatever you want to call that. There were others who said, I believe it's spiritual, but I like the ritual of the church.

• 1:11:12Speaker 06

  Having grown up within that. But it gets, yeah, terribly, terribly complex stuff.

• 1:11:19AJ Gentile?

  It does. I mean, I know you know Chris Bledsoe very well.

• 1:11:23Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:11:23AJ Gentile?

  When he was here, I asked him, can anyone learn to summon orbs? He said, yes, but you shouldn't.

• 1:11:32Speaker 06

  I haven't talked to her, been in touch with Chris since yesterday.

• 1:11:38AJ Gentile?

  He doesn't...

• 1:11:38Speaker 06

  You know that story, or should I tell that one?

• 1:11:41AJ Gentile?

  Tell it.

• 1:11:42Speaker 06

  What had happened is that, um, yeah.

• 1:11:50Speaker 06

  I met him in Pennsylvania initially and talked and this long story, I mean, he told it, but you can do hours, literally. And so I knew about the initial thing. Victoria and I went to see him and we spent a few days. And we went down to the Cape Fear River where that incident, the initial incidents had occurred. And so what got my attention, well, I already had, was pretty positively disposed because I'd seen enough stuff. But we went down to the lower thing, right next to the river.

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

  Walked back up where he says he had seen the going beams and all that. So we're at the car and Victoria and his daughter Emily get in the back seat of the car. And Chris and I are leaning against the left front. It's getting, just starting to get dark, twilight, you know. And he turned to me and said, "Oh, I think they're here." And with that, this thing pops into view and he goes zipping off. And I saw that and there was a second, against the temporal relationship between him saying, "I think it's here or that." Now, we've done a lot more since that.

• 1:13:15Speaker 06

  In fact, doing some competition now and trying to prove me unconscious. The big one, did you do the one on rail splitter? This was on beyond Skinwalker Ranch. And the incident that I think is truly phenomenal is that it's a split screen. Chris is sitting there pointing off the UFOs or the orbs, if you will, are over there. The second camera has the orbs. The third one, he's got an EEG helmet on. And you see a massive shift in brainwaves when he says, you know, "This interaction is occurring."

• 1:13:58AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:14:00Speaker 06

  Easily quantifiable, kind of can't quite explain it. But it does say that there is, there are things going on. And I think, I can't say it's totally unique. I will say I'm hearing more and more people who are, you know, doing something. I should mention, Bob Monroe and that.

• 1:14:21AJ Gentile?

  I wanted to ask you if you knew Bob, the Monroe Institute.

• 1:14:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, I knew Bob.

• 1:14:27AJ Gentile?

  Of course you did.

• 1:14:31Speaker 06

  But, yeah, what folks don't know is, yeah, he used to go out and do this too.

• 1:14:37AJ Gentile?

  Bob would summon orbs?

• 1:14:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, no, UFOs.

• 1:14:40AJ Gentile?

  UFOs?

• 1:14:41Speaker 06

  Yeah. And by the way, Elizabeth also was a friend of his, had been down there. And yes, they would summon them in and see the... See, one of my first questions that I do on the UFO presentations is, "What do you mean?" Because I got orbs, you know, little balls of light that are running around. They got hard craft that are miles, literally miles across. And thousands and thousands of variations in between. That's why I come down against the ETH or Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. Not because they aren't there, but that's just too simple.

• 1:15:22Speaker 06

  Unless Earth is on the galactic list of, bucket list of places that have to be visited or something like that. But there's pieces of that that don't make sense. But the idea is, again, it's back to what we said before. Yeah, it's happened and it's got to do. But it's kind of always been going on. It's like near-death experiences.

• 1:15:46Speaker 06

  For many families, for years and years, they just never talked about it. It was something that was talked in the family because it was crazy or something of this.

• 1:15:59Speaker 06

  I happen to have one of the most unique NDEs where you have physical effects in that.

• 1:16:09AJ Gentile?

  You have them?

• 1:16:10Speaker 06

  Well, no, this is...

• 1:16:16Speaker 06

  I guess Task Force Delta was being formed, which is different from Delta Force.

• 1:16:20AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:16:21Speaker 06

  This was a think tank sort of thing. And I got introduced to a, an individual. He's not really, I think, ever come public. But what was unique about it, because they told me that he was shot down. What happened was normally, you know, this is Vietnam story, but normally when you went out, at least in pairs. Well, this particular day, this one Cobra was out flying along. And the Cobra, you know, you got the pilot, pilot and copilot lined up like this.

• 1:16:58Speaker 06

  They're kind of screwing around and they get raked by a 51 caliber. And it's bad enough that Jim gets hit, the side leg, breaks his leg. And all of that. The, um, what happens, as he described it to me, is when he gets hit, he goes forward. The, supposedly the landing or the controls are shot away. But he remembers landing. Now, what happened though, was there was no place to land per se, there was a small opening. So they go into a, he brings his nose up, so it's going to come in, boom, fire.

• 1:17:42Speaker 06

  It's going to be a very bad day under all circumstances. But it's kind of ameliorates the shock because it, you know, coming in like the... What's key though, is that you have no idea what the orientation of the helicopter is going to be. Because the blades are still spinning, which is going to affect the way it lands. So you don't know until the end of that. Well, it turns out that about a click, click and a half in front of them is a friendly fire support base. And they see the incident happen. Well, then crashes, beats his helmet. All of a sudden, Jim's out of his body, up floating above. And he's looking down and he can say, "Here's the helicopter, here's how it's oriented.

• 1:18:27Speaker 06

  And there's the base in front of us." And says this hooded, I said, "Why male?" But he thought it was a male figure, says, "Uh, what are you doing here?" And he said, response was, "Well, I want help for them, not I'm in trouble." He says, "But don't you know?" He says, "No, what, you're not dead yet." With this, Jim sits up, you know, inside the thing. Backseat has already gotten out and he's running away. At that instant, he turns and he sees Jim move. So he runs back and grabs him, he says, "I thought you were dead. You haven't moved since we were hit."

• 1:19:09Speaker 06

  And he says, "There's a fire, or friendly base that's out over here. I'm going to go for help." Says, "No, Jim," says, "No, no, it's in this direction." Guy in says, "No, it's this way." Jim can't move, got a broken leg. His face is literally burned off.

• 1:19:26AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:19:27Speaker 06

  Pain is now setting in and he goes, no time to argue. Literally gets the guy to give him his pistol as he's decided to commit suicide rather than be captured.

• 1:19:41Speaker 06

  So what happens is the bad guy has come swipping in, bad, in this case, obviously relative. And then the friendly base comes in and they, they find him. Now, this is the only case that I have, because they put him in a jungle penetrator and lift him up. And he can say, "Here's the helicopter, there's the base, this guy's lost." And saved his life because before he passes out, he's able to say, "Went in this direction." But this is the only case that I have, where a guy physically replicates in-body what is out-of-body position.

• 1:20:20AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:20:24AJ Gentile?

  I think Joe McMonigal said it was his near-death experience that kind of awakened his abilities.

• 1:20:29Speaker 06

  Well...

• 1:20:33Speaker 06

  I was also, I'm a past president of the International Association for Near Death Studies, and I've seen this change. And one of the things, interesting things that happened, initially, initially now, we're talking late 70s, 80s, the idea was that this was a discreet event that happened over a very short period of time. And, you know, mystical things happened, but it happened within that timeframe. One of the things that became apparent with Ions

• 1:21:10Speaker 06

  was that, no, that people did gain abilities, particularly psychic abilities, precognition, one of the main things, I'm gonna watch, but was that electronics, that these people couldn't be around electronics, that they could be affected by it. But that turned out to be one of the unexpected issues that happened. Of course, the other was, the amount of things that happened during this discreet interview, you know, how long you were out, time just

• 1:21:48Speaker 06

  doesn't seem to count. You know, my brother, Evan, no relationship and that really good, there's a case where he was out for nearly a week.

• 1:22:03AJ Gentile?

  Out of body for a week?

• 1:22:05Speaker 06

  Well, the NDE has lasted, he's definitely in coma for about that long, endgame meningitis, and he has these fantastic experiences that happen. One of the, but the thing about Evan was unique, he was a neurosurgeon. So he's one of the few people who came in and says, "I understand neurophysiology, and no, the brain could not have been functioning." Well, one of the aspects of it, there's many, like, and I recommend Proof of Heaven, which

• 1:22:43Speaker 06

  is his book. Well, he's got several, Proof of Heaven, Map of Heaven was another one. But he talks about being out, going through these realms, and he has this butterfly, the female, that takes him around and all of that. Turns out that Evan had been adopted at birth. Kind of uniquely, after he's adopted, moved away into the Alexander family, his birth parents marry and have other kids. So he has siblings that he doesn't know, he doesn't know who his birth parents are, doesn't know much about the family or thing.

• 1:23:27AJ Gentile?

  He knows he's adopted, though?

• 1:23:29Speaker 06

  He does know he's adopted.

• 1:23:30AJ Gentile?

  But doesn't know the parent, okay.

• 1:23:31Speaker 06

  Doesn't know the birth parents or anything. So he gets in contact with them, and he gets a picture of a now deceased daughter, and he says, "That's the butterfly."

• 1:23:47AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:23:48Speaker 06

  Did not know her or anything about it. It was really, you know...

• 1:24:00AJ Gentile?

  Did that give him any sense of peace, or how did he feel about that?

• 1:24:04Speaker 06

  Well...

• 1:24:06AJ Gentile?

  I don't know if you're frightened.

• 1:24:09Speaker 06

  He's, of course, this stuff starts bleeding into all of it, in the consciousness field, because, yeah, what he will talk about is layers and layers of complexity that is hard to, you know, beyond our capability of understanding, certainly. That, yeah. But this was part of, you know, this is transformational

• 1:24:38AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:24:39Speaker 06

  ...kinds of things that happened. The other one, the case, well, we jumped from Jim. He did not, like I say, did not really go public with that much. I forget how, some mutual friends were where we were both in, like I say, this Task Force Delta, and how that came about. The other one that I think is, well, there's so many, again, and again, you can search Ions files, but another one

• 1:25:17Speaker 06

  that I think is absolutely critical, yeah, is Mary Neal. Does that name ring a bell? To Heaven and Back?

• 1:25:30AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:25:31Speaker 06

  Okay. In her case, what's interesting, she's kayaking in northern Chile, in a remote area, and, long story, but she, the last day, and they go over a waterfall, and she's an experienced kayaker, so it's well within her range, but she gets forced into it, not the way she wanted to go, and goes over, and the kayak goes in and locks underwater. And normally, there's a release, you can hit, but because of the force of the waterfall, can't reach it or anything like that. Probably underwater 30, 35 minutes.

• 1:26:14AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Speaker 06

  Find her body down there, bring her back. Two guys appear, and they assist in carrying her, you know, to the waiting ambulance in an area that has no ambulances. And then they, you know, take her to the, now, she says, met God being out there. Another thing, she had four young children, and something no mother would want to hear is, "Oh, your son's gonna die at 17."

• 1:26:51AJ Gentile?

  She was told that?

• 1:26:52Speaker 06

  Yeah. And did not relay that to anybody. And like I say, this is not, so, about a year before, she finally told her husband, by the way, she's a orthopedic surgeon in her own right, and they tell him, and sure enough, birthday comes, and he's out skateboarding in a different location, and the car zigs to miss somebody, and zags, and... Last time I talked to her was interesting, was that she said, "Well, there were, there were other things that have yet to come to pass." She says, one of those personal, but, yeah, there are more information that had been transferred.

• 1:27:37AJ Gentile?

  Who would, why burden her with that information? Why do that?

• 1:27:43Speaker 06

  Oh, I would not say she sees that as a burden.

• 1:27:46AJ Gentile?

  Knowing that your son's gonna die? I don't know if I can handle it.

• 1:27:49Speaker 06

  Knowing that we're going to be together.

• 1:27:54AJ Gentile?

  John, do you think, do you think about what's, do you think about what's gonna happen to you?

• 1:27:59Speaker 06

  No, well, I'm long past my expiration date.

• 1:28:02AJ Gentile?

  You are, and you're still going strong.

• 1:28:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, my mother died, this is from a biological standpoint, my mother died in early 50s, and father about 70. I'm long past that now, so...

• 1:28:16AJ Gentile?

  You don't seem too worried.

• 1:28:19Speaker 06

  No, no, I've, my question is, well, it's like all of these things, you know, these incidents that have happened and leading me going like, "Would somebody just give us the map?"

• 1:28:30AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:28:31Speaker 06

  "What do you want to do?"

• 1:28:32AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:28:33Speaker 06

  "It would be easier."

• 1:28:34AJ Gentile?

  It would be.

• 1:28:35Speaker 06

  An area that has come up more recently, though, has to do with pre, or pre-birth agreements, and this is coming, I think, more and more into vogue, that we made certain agreements, and you're gonna be presented, you still have free will, you get into the conundrum of free will versus free destination, but the, that you can, you know, you'll be presented with certain things that will allow you to make choices, and you still have a choice of which way, you know, to go with it. But, yeah, I've always wondered what we,

• 1:29:18Speaker 06

  well, particularly the world as it is now, did we really sign up for this?

• 1:29:22AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:29:25AJ Gentile?

  I think Raymond Moody's talked about it. I don't know if you know Michael Newton's work. He's talked about that life between lives and how we kind of gather together as in soul groups and we decide together like, "All right, I'll see you down there and this is what we're gonna do." You kind of feel the same way?

• 1:29:42Speaker 06

  Pretty much, pretty much. I had, well, this is kind of an Odyssey kind of script in the movie, but one of the issues was that the temporal shifts that take place and Farno Homer did the same thing when writing it, but, um, way back, you know, I was doing hypnotic regressions.

• 1:30:12AJ Gentile?

  You were?

• 1:30:13Speaker 06

  Yeah. And, you know, the issues are what's, what's in between and all of that.

• 1:30:21AJ Gentile?

  What did you see?

• 1:30:23Speaker 06

  Well, no, I was the hypnotist.

• 1:30:26AJ Gentile?

  What? Where did you learn to do that?

• 1:30:28Speaker 06

  I am a terrible, terrible subject. I'm a control freak.

• 1:30:33AJ Gentile?

  Same.

• 1:30:34Speaker 06

  And I admit it.

• 1:30:35AJ Gentile?

  It doesn't work on me.

• 1:30:36Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I don't like about, if we're gonna go into ayahuasca or things like that, but it, working with the shamans, um, but you got enough information and again, a number of mediums and again, some, one of the things that we had seen is just make no sense. And for me with automatic writing, this one is coming to mind. Now, this would have been Fort Benning, so 70, 71, 72 timeframe, working with a guy, Charles Logue, who was a professor

• 1:31:18Speaker 06

  at, was at Columbus College there in, I forget the name, the college, but they're in Columbus, Georgia, and they were taking night courses and they met some mediums who were doing phenomenal work. They used a planchette.

• 1:31:35AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:36Speaker 06

  So it was like you're, you're thinking, they have a pen, but with ball points in the back, and would get these long, long messages and that. What was most amazing to me, though, in all of that, interesting messaging, but this would get this thing would scribble. I mean, just, and then all of a sudden they go, and this picture would emerge.

• 1:31:59AJ Gentile?

  What, was someone's hand on it, like a Ouija board planchette?

• 1:32:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:32:02AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:32:02Speaker 06

  His hand is moving it.

• 1:32:04AJ Gentile?

  And it would draw a picture?

• 1:32:05Speaker 06

  Well, it would, it looks like it was just scribbling.

• 1:32:09AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:32:09Speaker 06

  Until the end, and it makes two or three moves, and all of a sudden you go, "Wow, that's a picture." You know, the background stuff had all been put in, and certainly beyond somebody, I think, beyond their ability to, "I'm gonna scribble a bunch," and then, "Oh, by the way, a couple lines," and here's this picture.

• 1:32:29AJ Gentile?

  What was it a picture of?

• 1:32:30Speaker 06

  I don't recall.

• 1:32:32AJ Gentile?

  You don't recall?

• 1:32:37Speaker 06

  We're talking, what, 70, 71 timeframe? I mean, yeah. As I said, there are so many instances like this.

• 1:32:46AJ Gentile?

  What, what deal do you think you made before, what deal do you think you made come, before you came back? What was your reason to be here?

• 1:32:54Speaker 06

  Lack of common sense.

• 1:32:57AJ Gentile?

  Well, all these things happened to you.

• 1:32:59Speaker 06

  Yeah. It would be much easier if from the other side, they said, "Here's the blueprint, go do this," as opposed to, "Oh, you're gonna almost die," but, you know, but then these sorts of things will happen. I mean, I look at, in Vietnam, you know, some of the stories we're aware of, but, uh, I could tell you the difference between the bullet zinging and the bullet cracking. That means that it's that close.

• 1:33:30AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:33:30Speaker 06

  You know, and that was an instance where, for whatever reason, the guy who was shooting at me, who was pretty damn accurate, because the second shot, well, that was already, it happened to be a ditch there, you know, it was right on line, and had he done what he should have done, i.e. shoot center of mass, as opposed to a headshot, he'd have nailed me, there's no doubt about it. But that didn't happen. Why? You know, why can I tell you these things? And they only make more sense in retrospect.

• 1:34:09AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 1:34:10Speaker 06

  Than what they do.

• 1:34:13AJ Gentile?

  Well, I, you're clearly on mission still. I just wouldn't, wanted to know if you felt like you were.

• 1:34:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:34:19AJ Gentile?

  But you definitely are. Um, I guess, speaking of Vietnam and, what about, tell me about Project Jedi and the, and the experiment with the 45 cal?

• 1:34:32Speaker 06

  Oh, well, this is back to Incom.

• 1:34:35AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:34:35Speaker 06

  Yeah. Um, NLP, are you familiar with NLP?

• 1:34:40AJ Gentile?

  Neuro-linguistic programming?

• 1:34:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:34:42AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:34:43Speaker 06

  See, I had the two co-founders, Richard Bandler and John Grinder, under contract. I'm working with them, there's a guy you probably heard of called Tony Robbins.

• 1:34:54AJ Gentile?

  I've heard of all three, yeah.

• 1:34:55Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, Robbins and Grinder were working together, and this is when I'm working for Burt. Now, NLP was designed as a therapeutic modality, i.e. how you take broken people and make them better. And what, Frogs and the Princesses was the first book by Bandler and Grinder. Uh, and it was, you know, how do we make them, now, in Incom, our problem was different. It was how do we take good people and make them even better? And so the, it was set up, like I said, had them all, by this time, Bandler and Grinder have

• 1:35:38Speaker 06

  split, so they, the twains don't meet there, but Tony and, actually did most of the work with Tony Robbins. Now, this is, you know, before.

• 1:35:50AJ Gentile?

  Before Tony was Tony?

• 1:35:51Speaker 06

  Worldwide fame.

• 1:35:52AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:35:53Speaker 06

  And all of that. Um, but we, uh, it was an inter-agency group, and one of the things we had in common is everybody shot something. Now, the other problem with modalities were, you know, feeling better. You can't quantify that. So what we did is we, since everybody shot, and the question was not, "Did you hit the target, did you not?" It's, you know, "You hit the target and blah, blah, blah." So we got, it was difficult at the time, 45 ammunition was really critical. But we went out and we could go, we could

• 1:36:35Speaker 06

  contact anybody as models. And so we ended up, the people in the civilian sector, "Why, you know, the Army marksmanship unit is kind of the place to go." So we brought in the Army champion, the inter-service champion, and their boss. And we did modeling with them. And we did some stuff, first of all, things like, you know, "Why do you do this? What do you believe about shooting?" and all of this. And all of them, you know, shooting was good and whatnot. And you could protect life, and there's a way to make a living

• 1:37:13Speaker 06

  and whatnot. Um, we, so we went to the physical aspects of it and got them, took them in shooting, and if you get them as far off balance as you could get, and they were pretty damn good. Even being way off balance, they had enough muscle memory they could hit. But if you ask them to do a mental task like Hummerhead a Little Lamb, went to shit originally, you know. So obviously, it was more than physical and much more mental capability.

• 1:37:49AJ Gentile?

  You know, it's interesting that, that Tony Robbins and, and those guys were involved because, do you see now how we've got, in like, business success seminars, there's visualization, there's people doing the cold plunges?

• 1:38:07Speaker 06

  Well, you missed the biggie.

• 1:38:08AJ Gentile?

  Which is?

• 1:38:10Speaker 06

  What we did with, well, again, the person we were working with on that, we, we had a day where, um, in the morning, we taught people how to break boards, you know, the karate.

• 1:38:24AJ Gentile?

  That's right, he does that too. Also, firewalking.

• 1:38:27Speaker 06

  Well, that's the, the second step. In the afternoon, we did the spoon bending. And in the evening, we did firewalking.

• 1:38:37AJ Gentile?

  You did?

• 1:38:37Speaker 06

  Yep. And the quote he uses, but does not attribute, was mine, was, you know, the question was, "What if you had a battalion of people that could do this?" And I said, "Yeah, you just have to tell them they're coming."

• 1:38:53AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Speaker 06

  But it was quite a day.

• 1:38:58AJ Gentile?

  So, was this all Project Jedi with those guys? Was this Jedi?

• 1:39:04Speaker 06

  Um, yes. I mean, kind of attached a name.

• 1:39:09AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:39:11Speaker 06

  That was not one of the official titles. There have been several Jedi programs that have come up, some of them official, others not. We just attached it again. Remember, this was when Star Wars was at its track and.

• 1:39:24AJ Gentile?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:39:25Speaker 06

  You know, Jedi warriors are.

• 1:39:28AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:39:28Speaker 06

  Just the, the thing.

• 1:39:31AJ Gentile?

  Did you notice that your program went civilian? Did you notice that the program went civilian? Like, when, when Tony became famous, were you like, "We did that"?

• 1:39:42Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, like I said, what he didn't do is attribute it to quote.

• 1:39:47AJ Gentile?

  No. Um, why didn't the military take it more seriously?

• 1:39:55Speaker 06

  Well, no, that, you know, it's in the political aspects of it.

• 1:40:00AJ Gentile?

  You don't have to.

• 1:40:02Speaker 06

  Well, no, no, A, did for a while. Remember, this was, this, which is not all popular. And you have the values of the big system, if you will. We were operating quite independently. We started a second project that was related. And this had to do with NSA at the time. Remember, NSCOM provides the people who work at NSA. The Soviets were much faster. Our guys were topping out normally, if I say 25, 30 groups, remember, the stop code is

• 1:40:44Speaker 06

  sent in five-digit segment bursts. And we would, our guys topping out probably around 20, 30. The super debts that they had were, listen to the Soviets, their fists could get up to like 60 words a minute. But we had a few people that we had found inside that were doing this. And what they called them was super debts. Turns out that what we found out was, basically, we're looking for the wrong people. We looked for smart people. And some people had senile. Wrong question. The simple question to ask is, what

• 1:41:29Speaker 06

  kind of stereo equipment do you own?

• 1:41:31AJ Gentile?

  How does that work?

• 1:41:33Speaker 06

  That works because they hear better.

• 1:41:37AJ Gentile?

  They hear better?

• 1:41:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. And so that was really the defining question. If you were going to look for people who are going to do well in this, or ones that had super hearing. Now, the other question we did have, though, is where's the buffer of the mic? Because what would happen is they would hear these things, and the thing would stop, and, you know, they're still putting this out. I don't have an answer for that.

• 1:42:07AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:42:08Speaker 06

  The question is, where is the buffer? Because this thing is, you know, staging, and, you know, they would continue to write after the transmission has actually stopped.

• 1:42:16AJ Gentile?

  And you couldn't find the buffer?

• 1:42:18Speaker 06

  Maybe you could now with neurophysiology, FMRI or something like that, which we did not, you know, didn't exist.

• 1:42:26AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:42:27Speaker 06

  At the time, let alone, you know, what did happen, though, was that, this gets into army political. The, Bert, as a two-star general, was in charge of NSCOM. At the army staff level, you had the deputy chief of operations, personnel, research and development, logistics, are all four-star, or three-star positions. And intelligence was two-star. And they said, that doesn't make sense. I mean, intelligence, so we're going to make

• 1:43:05Speaker 06

  it a three-star position. So there were two people, there were lots, the current Axi, Bill Odom at the time, and Bert Stubblevine, who was at NSCOM. And the fighting got really ugly. Some will know, we had used the Monroe Institute for training for some of the, well, just kind of a generic orientation, as well as people doing remote viewing work. And we had an accident down there. People can look up and find the name. But we had a lieutenant.

• 1:43:49Speaker 06

  What happened was, before people went down, they came in from all over the world, and we bust them down to the Monroe Institute. And they had all been screened, because we had a shrink that worked with us.

• 1:44:01AJ Gentile?

  Was this part of Wayne, Colonel O'Connell's report? Wayne O'Connell in 81 did a report on the gateway process from Monroe?

• 1:44:11Speaker 06

  That's much later.

• 1:44:12AJ Gentile?

  Later, okay.

• 1:44:13Speaker 06

  Oh, no. I know the report. No, this is, if that's 81, they had, well, the issue I was getting to was the accident.

• 1:44:30AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:44:31Speaker 06

  So somebody didn't show up. And this lieutenant, Badgers, Stubblevine, I want to go, I want to go, and he goes down there and frankly cracks up. Now, understand that in the military, unfortunately, you know, we kill a few kids every year with tanks and things like that. Bad accidents. Well, I should all say, yeah, this guy, I saw him, wrapped up. He was bug fuck. At the time, just ranting and raving. Send him to Walter Reed. And two, three days later, he's out, he's fine. Maybe got a Thorazine shot or something.

• 1:45:13AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:45:14Speaker 06

  But he's recovered. He even got his clearances back and everything.

• 1:45:18AJ Gentile?

  So he recovered from that experience?

• 1:45:20Speaker 06

  Oh, instant, almost instantly.

• 1:45:22AJ Gentile?

  Did you need your psychiatrist and pop?

• 1:45:24Speaker 06

  Ever.

• 1:45:25AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:45:26Speaker 06

  And now, what happens, it's about this time that we're upgrading the intelligence, that was used against Bert and just decimated. He kept coming back and back. And, you know, he frankly got forced into retirement over that. And so we were doing this weird stuff. Ed Soyster came in behind him, who interestingly had no intelligence experience. He was an artillery officer, I think. And so his job was to clear the nest of vipers.

• 1:46:03AJ Gentile?

  You.

• 1:46:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05AJ Gentile?

  Did you stay in touch with Stubblevine after retirement?

• 1:46:09Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:10AJ Gentile?

  How did he do? Was he okay?

• 1:46:11Speaker 06

  Was he okay? It's terribly complex. He became a truther.

• 1:46:20AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:46:22Speaker 06

  And really, one of the questions that comes up as to the efficacy of using, you had mentioned earlier when Chris said, maybe shouldn't do it. It is not risk-free.

• 1:46:35AJ Gentile?

  Let's take a quick break and come back and talk about John Hutchison and the ATP?

• 1:46:42Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:46:43AJ Gentile?

  All right. Our audience knows John Hutchison's work. They don't really remember that in 1983, you were sent by the military to evaluate John, weren't you?

• 1:46:55Speaker 06

  I was the one who paid him, yeah.

• 1:46:58AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. Can you just start at the beginning? Like, what, how'd you learn about him?

• 1:47:02Speaker 06

  How do we learn about John? Well, there was George Hathaway, who is a double E from Toronto. And I'm trying to think of the guy's name, who was with him, who has since deceased. And they had a small 16-millimeter film of a bunch of really weird things happening. And they came down and looked at it and said, you know, that's really impressive. Wonder, you know, how real it is. So, set up a program where, yeah, I was paying him, and he was

• 1:47:42Speaker 06

  working, had moved in Vancouver. Now, one of the things that happened was that he had, well, he liked to make sparks. I mean, that was his thing. Okay. So, he was living in an apartment, and he had a basement lab, if you will. And he had bandicraft generators, Jacob's ladders, and all kinds of spark-making stuff. And the story, although I understand there are several, but the one he told me was that he would sit down there at night, and he threw something into the area, and all of a sudden it hit him. And he threw

• 1:48:27Speaker 06

  it back, and it came out and hit him again. And he goes like, what is this? There's nothing there. And, now, the other problem was that with all of his electrical stuff, he was disturbing the environment. Now, remember, this is the days when, you know, TV went through the air and that. So he was screwing with everybody's TV in the process. So they said he had to move.

• 1:48:54AJ Gentile?

  Enough energy to overcome a broadcast signal?

• 1:48:57Speaker 06

  Well, exactly. Again, he's just putting on crap.

• 1:49:01AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:49:02Speaker 06

  Now, one of the things, what he told me he was doing was that he would look at pictures of Tesla, and look at what's happening in the, you know, his shop around there, and just try to guess, you know, how could he replicate some of that? It wasn't taking factual data. It was just taking pictures, and well, if I put stuff here and whatnot.

• 1:49:25AJ Gentile?

  Wow, I didn't know that. He was just looking at the pictures, trying to?

• 1:49:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, trying to figure out, of Tesla, of course.

• 1:49:36Speaker 06

  He had contacted George. George becomes the saving grace because he came over and did the diagrams of what all the things are, where they were physically related to each other and all of that. Unfortunately, part of it probably was the piping because he's in the basement and whatnot. Couldn't replicate that. But this where Ted Rockwell came back into it again. Again, Ted was Rickover's technical director, worked in nuclear energy, had his own company. By the way, it also gets into interspecies communication sorts

• 1:50:21Speaker 06

  of things. Ted was the guy who brought in Gaiman. So many of these, that's one of the things about how many of these things just intertwine in ways that are almost unimaginable.

• 1:50:32AJ Gentile?

  I mean, didn't you in the past?

• 1:50:34Speaker 06

  Didn't.

• 1:50:35AJ Gentile?

  Didn't you communicate with dolphins at some point? Are you working on that?

• 1:50:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's a whole nother story. But yeah, we did work, that's what I call interspecies communication, with the telepathic work, Neptune's helper, if we get to that. So anyway, like I say, we've seen the pictures, we've talked to them, and it's probably real. So we set it up. The idea was that they would recreate the workshop that John had in Vancouver. And so, you know, he did. And one of the things that we did is, I was physically

• 1:51:19Speaker 06

  at Fort Belvoir at the time, had a place down there. We were working with Cleve Baxter and those things. But so we took a bunch of metal samples and cut them in half, put half of them in the safe at Fort Belvoir and gave the other half to, for John to manipulate. And it was thinking we can, you know, see if there are physical structural changes or anything like that. Now, the problem was John. No problem. Yeah, it is. There's no single effect. There were so many different things going on. You had mentioned earlier

• 1:52:01Speaker 06

  to me the anti-gravity. Well, there were things that levitated, there was no doubt about that. The one that I found really interesting, people today may not remember how light bulbs used to work with a filament across there.

• 1:52:16AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:52:17Speaker 06

  We had, I'll tell you, we had two pieces of wood and a rat tail file probably above, you know, this big across. And it is exposed to this field, and it starts glowing and turns not only white hot, red, or, you know, to white hot, and then drops. Interestingly, they went in, A, the boards weren't burned, B, it was cold to pick up, even though it had just gotten to the point where that. One of the many sorts of effects that had happened.

• 1:52:54AJ Gentile?

  Cold as in room temperature or cold cold?

• 1:52:56Speaker 06

  Pick it up.

• 1:52:59AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:53:00Speaker 06

  You know, it's molten.

• 1:53:03AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:04Speaker 06

  One second and you can pick it up. The other issue was not all of these things were metal. I mean, the idea was maybe it's magnetic, electromagnetic of some kind, and certainly that's what he was using for input. And that, you know, as I said, things sometimes levitate. One we had, remember was Alex Bizarro was the name I was trying to think of. They had in there a piece of PVC. And shreds one end of the PVC.

• 1:53:43AJ Gentile?

  But it wouldn't affect a person or anything organic?

• 1:53:48Speaker 06

  We have no idea what it would do.

• 1:53:49AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:53:50Speaker 06

  I mean, all we're saying, and this is the problem, there's no, absolutely no control on any of the. Another one they did, remember, I told you, John was looking at Tesla's bench to see what's on it. We're also at a poverty level. This is before people are coming in and funny, that we gave, I forget what it was, 20K or something like that, it wasn't a great amount. But the way he would get, he would go to junkyard and pick stuff up. Well, one of the things he fucked up was the driveshaft. And it brought

• 1:54:29Speaker 06

  it in and exposed to the field, and then took it to BC Hydro. One end of the driveshaft is like case hardened steel, and the other is soft as lead. It's the same piece of metal. And all that happened was that it was exposed to John.

• 1:54:51AJ Gentile?

  So it's rearranging the molecules?

• 1:54:54Speaker 06

  Well, the point is, you have changes in a piece of a single rod, not the whole thing.

• 1:55:02AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:55:03Speaker 06

  And this was true in all cases. But I remember in the PVC one, the PVC evaporated. I mean, it just wasn't there anymore. Now, of course, it wasn't in a sealed container where you could find it, it vaporized and be picked up. Again, John is, you know, there's some personal background, I won't go into it next. But these things were definitely happening. So, one of the things that happened in the PK arena, I mentioned metal bending. Jack Houck had given me some melismal rods, and these had been extruded. And nobody in

• 1:55:48Speaker 06

  the metal bending had ever bent the metal rods, so he gave them the, so I had some, so I gave, gave them to John, and I got it back and it had just a slight S curve in it. It was just by being exposed to the field.

• 1:56:06AJ Gentile?

  And this is a very durable metal with a melting point of almost 5,000 degrees?

• 1:56:10Speaker 06

  Well, yeah. And we also looked to see had somebody gripped it or, no.

• 1:56:16AJ Gentile?

  Is that the piece you brought today?

• 1:56:18Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:56:19AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:56:20Speaker 06

  This is one that John sent me. I just happened to bring, I have lots of different ones. But look at this. I mean, just the size and weight of that. And that's just from being exposed to his field. And you can see, it's just ruptured.

• 1:56:37AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:38Speaker 06

  And why and how, don't know. But again, one of so many different effects that you're seeing. This one's obviously clearly metal. There were some, we had wood, we had others that were just twisted. We had, you know, some of it seemed to be soft and screws through it, and wood affected, sometimes wood unaffected. Again, totally lacking control.

• 1:57:07AJ Gentile?

  Did you see it happen in real time?

• 1:57:09Speaker 06

  Short answer would be no. What happened was, and our deal was, we were gonna do a show and tell. I set it up and went up a number of times. And I brought in a team. I had two guys from Los Alamos and three others from, one night vision lab, and a couple from the Incom. They were working in the science field. So what happened was, okay, time for show and tell, right? Showtime. I do whatever. You get there early, right?

• 1:57:50AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:51Speaker 06

  I arrive a day early. And the, they're really excited. They, boy, we've got, you know, this thing was just levitating. So we've turned it off. Now, we kind of understand, this is terribly, this is a makeshift thing, if you will, and all kinds of stuff, in an uncoordinated way and whatnot. And so I looked, we look at it, it's levitating, we just turned it off. So everything's the same, saying, we'll just turn it back on tomorrow, when everybody else arrives and, turn it back on. The power supply burns up. I mean, literally,

• 1:58:32Speaker 06

  by the way, one of the key things in all of this was power in. All of, the entire apparatus was being run on 1220 extension cord.

• 1:58:46Speaker 06

  As a matter of fact, one of the naysayers that had been from Lennel ended up going to jail later for other reasons, but anyway, is the one who, he says, "Oh, they've got this stuff." You see the room, because we had a single room, it was a huge warehouse kind of facility, and this all was in one little cubicle of it. Well, damned if somebody comes in and we are able to get into them. And no, there's no other external equipment that's driving energy into this sort of thing.

• 1:59:21AJ Gentile?

  Is one plug, 220, maybe 10 amp fuse?

• 1:59:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, like I say, an extent, literally running off an extension cord, which, as I said, burned up, and it turned out that he had no spare. They spent the day getting it. By the way, there's some similarities to this on the ranch. And I know, Jack Houck had also worked with John. And that is, you know, this, these anomalies, how things happen. I think I've mentioned the, what they call the precognitive sentient phenomenon. Now, this comes from the ranch. There's an it that knows not only what's going to happen,

• 2:00:05Speaker 06

  but how we are going to respond before the incident happens. And it is in control. Don't know what it is. That's true in the ranch. We had the same thing, you know, I hadn't identified, I identified that after working at the ranch for a couple of years, much earlier than. And this gets into, you know, the trickster, if you will, which appears in folklore and Loki and Cocopelli and Pan, etc.

• 2:00:38AJ Gentile?

  It has to want to be observed.

• 2:00:41Speaker 06

  Yep. Well, but it is, you know, it happened, well, same, we did at the ranch. You have the same running 24/7 photographer, and then things would happen just outside. The same thing here. And Jack had the same thing happen. It would happen just outside where the cameras are studying it. Sometimes it would happen above this, the area we were in in Vancouver. It had a wood ceiling on it, and then put stuff up there, and things would kind of move around there, too. So you couldn't define it. We thought it was a field effect, but we couldn't define the field by any stretch of imagination.

• 2:01:23AJ Gentile?

  So did you grab a new extension cord and nothing happened?

• 2:01:26Speaker 06

  Well, no, no, the problem was the power supply that was converting it. They find, they found one, and we got it, and no, it didn't happen. Now, I interviewed the entire team, and five out of the six thought it really did happen. Now, the sixth one was a huge, not a skeptic, he was simply a debunker. He's the one who claimed that, you know, Tom Bearden? Okay. He thought that Tom Bearden had snuck in. For people who don't know, Tom was working on, or

• 2:02:05AJ Gentile?

  Zero point.

• 2:02:06Speaker 06

  Free energy and all of this.

• 2:02:08AJ Gentile?

  It's part of the Sparky Sweet story.

• 2:02:11Speaker 06

  But somehow he had snuck in and had set up this system. It was just total nonsense, sort of thing. The bad news was, and for reasons unknown, the Lennel report was classified. And so then they say, "Oh, the government's covering it up." Now, now, the simpler thing would have been to say, "We came, we saw, nothing happened." End of transmission. Instead of this convoluted theories that we did end up dealing with. Still in touch with John, you know, said, "Hey, get emails from him." Weekly, certainly, if not daily.

• 2:02:53Speaker 06

  And, but never could get under control. And of course, you know, he's done any number of documentaries and things like that, where you see the effect. And you can say, "We've observed something happened," but, you know, kind of controls of how it goes. And the most perplexing thing, again, was the range effects that we saw.

• 2:03:17AJ Gentile?

  Anything else besides gravity and bending?

• 2:03:21Speaker 06

  Well, the heat.

• 2:03:22AJ Gentile?

  The heat.

• 2:03:23Speaker 06

  You know, and burning and not burning, and disintegration of material, and, you know.

• 2:03:34AJ Gentile?

  Do you think that there are zero-point energy projects?

• 2:03:38Speaker 06

  Well, that's quite different.

• 2:03:41AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:03:42Speaker 06

  A different question.

• 2:03:43AJ Gentile?

  You brought up Bearden, I, you have to, you brought up Tom Bearden.

• 2:03:46Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, Tom was a trip. Knew him pretty well. He told you about how Mossad had invisibility capability, and how they would sneak into his house, and the ways that he would know that is they would move his keys around or something like that. So, now, he is revered, not with the zero-point energy, but in the psychotronic community. It was very interesting. The problem we've, I found, particularly with the scientific community, is he would

• 2:04:29Speaker 06

  give these very officious sounding things, and then you would find out that certainly basic words, he was not using the same definition. We might use gravity, for instance, that his form of gravity would be, could be different from the way science traditionally thinks about it. Yeah, I knew Tom. This goes back to the before, I think he came into the picture after the new Middle Battlefield or something.

• 2:05:03AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:05:04Speaker 06

  No, no, no, it was, I know it was before that. Because one of the statements that I put in there, that I thought, you know, in retrospect, I would have been more circumspect. And that was, I said that there were devices whose lethal capability had been demonstrated. Where I was perjudicing there was that I really meant there were some insects that died, as opposed, that this wasn't designed to mean, you know, human. However, when you get into the Soviet research, you know, there were some where you had fatal experiments.

• 2:05:46AJ Gentile?

  Sure. You wrote a letter to, I think it was, the commanding general of Army Futures Command? The commanding general of Army Futures?

• 2:06:00Speaker 06

  Futures Command, yeah.

• 2:06:02AJ Gentile?

  Telling him, "Here's what we found, you should look into it." Were you trying to get reopened there?

• 2:06:07Speaker 06

  Well, I wasn't trying to reopen, but I've run into this in several cases, thought they ought to know what we did.

• 2:06:13AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:06:14Speaker 06

  And I had been contacted previously, but more on the NLP research. And so my thing to them was just going to be, "Somebody at least want to know what we did." You know, some of the stuff is still available, and, you know, I know, Colin Kelleher, and I was talking to him recently, and he says that we're the Immortals. And he's talking about Jacques and Hal and me and Kit, you know, the, you know, well, getting up there.

• 2:06:50Speaker 06

  But the problem with many of these things, you know, just the information is dying out, literally.

• 2:07:02AJ Gentile?

  Everyone's very suspicious of you and Hal and Jacques for living forever. We want to know what deal you made. Could you quickly tell the story about the cells, your white blood cells, behind the brick wall? I remember you telling that story somewhere.

• 2:07:19Speaker 06

  On the wall.

• 2:07:20AJ Gentile?

  Um, it was at, the National Academy was reviewing some of your work.

• 2:07:25Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 2:07:26AJ Gentile?

  Remember that?

• 2:07:28Speaker 06

  In great detail.

• 2:07:30AJ Gentile?

  All right.

• 2:07:32Speaker 06

  This gets to work of Cleve Baxter. Cleve was a polygrapher. He actually designed the system. Well, this goes back in World War II. We had, he was in CIC, Counterintelligence Corps. I had transitioned early as the development of CIA, as I was a polygrapher. And he, he was very, he was big in astrology, by the way, as well. But, when, he was then initially living in New York. And he had a very basic question.

• 2:08:14Speaker 06

  He had a large plant there, and he says, "Well, I wonder if I pour water into the plant, how long will it take it to show up in the leaves?" So he put his GSR sensor on that, and whatever happened. But then he left it on, it was just running in his apartment and that, and suddenly started noticing every once, it was hooked up to the polygraph, so it was getting signal. Every once in a while, you'd see a signal.

• 2:08:45AJ Gentile?

  From the plant?

• 2:08:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:08:47AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:08:48Speaker 06

  Well, the question is, why is this happening? So finally, he just found out that there was a connection between what was going on in the environment and the plant. So he started by doing things like ripping the plant, and he'd see the thing, and then he'd burn the plant. Then he found out that by thinking about burning, or threatening to burn the plant, and the plant's responding. He calls this primary perception.

• 2:09:24Speaker 06

  Well, this is another one Ted Rockwell comes back in as an introductory point. So, anyway, I'm trying to think what all of the sequence, this is quite a while ago, but so Cleve has now got his shop in San Diego. And one of the things that he does, he starts using oral leukocytes, which are white cells from the mouth, and they would, we use a centrifuge, but I'm confused. So the device was that we have electrodes into the oral leukocytes. This thing is in a cage, bird egg cage, shielded and all of that.

• 2:10:07Speaker 06

  And they would, how the cells would respond to it. We found out, well, maybe back up. He had done some work before that on things like brine shrimp. And he had pots there and he would keep the brine shrimp. And at an undetermined time, the shrimp would dump into boiling water and kill the shrimp. And sure enough, you know, shrimp are responding. He also did some interesting work with yogurts and whatnot, because there's living organisms in the yogurt.

• 2:10:45Speaker 06

  So, the next step up was using the oral leukocytes, because it's now attached to a single individual. And their experiment was that you'd have the donor would come in, and then they would agree to watch a certain TV program. It was one where you expect some sort of violent thing, but you don't know when or what the event is going to be. And sure enough, you started seeing, because they would tape the program and then put it with it, and you'd see a violent event occurs, the thing starts, you know, reflecting.

• 2:11:23AJ Gentile?

  From the leukocytes?

• 2:11:25Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 2:11:26AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:11:27Speaker 06

  Our interest, you gotta remember, you know, the Red Brigade and General Dozier is captured. So we had people that were, and the question is, you know, can we communicate? Or can we start with simple things, alive or not alive? Now, I had, in military perspective, looked at this too, and the idea was we'll put capsules in or something, you know, like a transmitter. The response was probably not a good idea, because if it's suspected, they'll just cut until they find it.

• 2:12:05AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:12:07Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, that one, however, you know, now looking at it from externally saying, you know, can we either communicate or can we just get an idea of life or not? So that was the genesis of looking at it from military perspective and what. What happened, well, I had done a series, well, I had Cleve under contract. Interesting side story here, I built my own device.

• 2:12:47Speaker 06

  And it was interesting, I took a senior scientist from night vision lab with me out there, and said, you know, this is with permission, so, I mean, I'm not stealing anything from him. And we look at it, and I said, well, can you build it? He says, yeah, it's pretty straightforward. But he says, look, I have cut this much out of the world for me, and you can reorganize things in there, but don't tell me I have to relearn physics, because I don't want to hear it. Pretty straightforward.

• 2:13:26AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:27Speaker 06

  Honest. Now, he could have screwed me any number of ways, you know, just one loose wire or something.

• 2:13:33AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:13:34Speaker 06

  But he didn't. And he said, there's a piece missing. And I said, well, that's the piece I'm going to worry about, this is the consciousness aspect of it. So, anyway, we ran a series of experiments with this. Fast forward a bit, it must be 87 timeframe. Max Thurman is Vice Chief of Staff of the Army. And he decides to look at all this weirdness, so he puts together a scientific panel from National Research Council to evaluate all of these things. And I appeared before him several times.

• 2:14:17Speaker 06

  In fact, one of the things that bothered me is they had a whole series of behavioral scientists. And I don't know if you know Bob John from Princeton. Okay, J A H N, John, he is the dean, well, yeah, then the dean of School of Engineering at Princeton, who is a central figure in all of this, because he had independently replicated, you know, was doing the remote viewing experiments, and he had a big thing on psychokinesis and all of that. Impeccable credentials and whatnot. And we had tried to get Bob, you know, added to it.

• 2:15:01Speaker 06

  My admonition to the, you're nice guys, but, you know, we're the physical scientists, because that's where the experimentation is going. They did have Ray Hyman on there, if you know Ray, from the audience, founding member of Psych Ops.

• 2:15:19AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:20Speaker 06

  The skeptics and whatnot. A bit of a side, he came to me, he actually had clearances, it was an old secret, but came and looked at stuff I had in the safe. By this time, I'm Director of Advanced System Concepts for what was then the Army Laboratory Command, no longer exists. But I had some stuff in the safe, was able to show them the Soviet work and all that. And of course, then they're asking, well, what are the controls with us? I said, you understand how we, this is from spies.

• 2:15:59AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:16:00Speaker 06

  We are not getting their, you know, reports or something on it. His comment was, I didn't realize there was so much.

• 2:16:08AJ Gentile?

  There's so much.

• 2:16:11Speaker 06

  But, so, with, so the report, this is, committee has set up National Research Council, and I suggested we take them to Cleve's lab, because that is pretty damn reliable. By the way, one of the things that happened, I thought was interesting, was that, as I said, he's a polygrapher. So, we set up an experiment with me, and said, okay, well, what I found was, I could beat the polygraph, couldn't beat the white cells.

• 2:16:52AJ Gentile?

  You couldn't beat those.

• 2:16:53Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I let them screw around a bit, you know, and there's some personal matters and things like that. So that was really interesting, it shows the connection between, even though my white cells are separated in another room and shielded, etc. So...

• 2:17:12AJ Gentile?

  And you, you were affecting the blood cells?

• 2:17:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, I was doing, you know, I'm an N O one, but I was, you know, trying to see what the limits would be. And so, anyway, by the way, back to your futures command, you know, this is what I was trying to say, we did this stuff, will somebody come and look at least, you know, check the records? So, anyway, we set up, and the board is going to meet in San Diego, so I said, well, good thing, we'll take them to Cleve's lab. So, what happens is, again, you want to know it's working today, not at work yesterday.

• 2:17:55Speaker 06

  So, I arrived several hours early, well, I'd been, I was, I'd already arrived in San Diego, but arrived, and I donate cells, just to make sure this thing is up and running. And frankly, we forget about it. And so, what happens is, the panel arrives, and we take two of their people, Steve White, the lab assistant, and they're going to donate the cells. And one's donating, one observing. And we take the rest of them to the, kind of a classroom, basically, and we've agreed that Cleve is going to give the background and history, I'm going to get up and say,

• 2:18:40Speaker 06

  by the way, I've independently replicated this, and here's that. Now, Cleve is one of these people, when you say, what time is it, you get the history of chronometers. And he was going on and on, and going like, God, I can tell they're getting edgy and whatnot. So, finally, it comes my turn to tell them that the world is not built the way they think it is. So I start talking, and about 90 seconds later, Dave runs in the room, says, what happened 90 seconds ago? And I said, well, that's when I started talking to them. And internally, yes, I'm saying, telling the National Academy of Science, you know,

• 2:19:25Speaker 06

  their view is wrong.

• 2:19:26AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:19:27Speaker 06

  Is emotionally stimulating.

• 2:19:28AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:19:29Speaker 06

  And, so, anyway, we go over, and we see, I mean, this thing, he has stoppers on it, we're getting a tenth of a millivolt, but it is just, by the way, I've got this tape.

• 2:19:40AJ Gentile?

  Oh, you do?

• 2:19:41Speaker 06

  Now, I still, yeah. What happened is that Ray Hyman is the one who ran over and looked and ripped it off. Now, what's interesting is when the report comes out...

• 2:19:52Speaker 06

  Not a word on this.

• 2:19:54AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:19:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, the only thing that they thought was useful or potentially useful, and they had looked at remote viewing, I knew they had been, but they had been curtailed, most of the classified stuff was not available to them and that, but they had agreed that NLP had some, potentially some, some use, but the rest of the stuff we were doing was just nonsense. And I say, in this particular area, it doesn't, yeah, not, not a word about, it happened right in, you know, the white crow flew right in front of you and...

• 2:20:29AJ Gentile?

  CIA wasn't interested in this? Was CIA interested?

• 2:20:34Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, I knew KAT and that, but these are all, and once you find out into, and this, by the way, gets deeply into the UFO era, you know, a lot, a lot more of it's personal interest. And people will say, you know, you'll notice certain names keep

• 2:20:53AJ Gentile?

  They do.

• 2:20:53Speaker 06

  recurring, you know, throughout, even though some of us have different views on it, but, uh, yeah, there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that become key in all of these things. Um, well, we were not publishing, you know, reports on this, it was still what you'd call basic research on there, but we definitely showed the efficacy of it and a relationship that could be tailored, add a distance between the cells and, and again, from the issue where we're thinking of going is, you know, is there something that we can do with foreign diplomats, for instance, where we keep some kind of sample on hand,

• 2:21:38Speaker 06

  and if something happens, you pull it out and, you know, try to communicate. Again, simple things like, are you alive or dead, which would change a lot of, you know, what your response would be, you know, what are you willing to risk?

• 2:21:52AJ Gentile?

  Because your cells were 20 miles away, weren't they?

• 2:21:57Speaker 06

  Well, there is one instance, it was more like 50, and, uh, no, I asked Cleve about it, and he says, the problem is that you really probably can't tell, because you'd have to get almost into interstellar distances. I mean, um, you know, the particles and whatnot, what's the distance, and because we're dealing with things and speed and whatnot. Um, by the way, getting back to Chris, the experiment that was done with him in, down at Monroe in a SEAL unit, and yet he's doing, which I think shows that this isn't electromagnetic,

• 2:22:40Speaker 06

  you know, the consciousness, but this is, you know, we don't understand a lot more than we do understand in these areas. Like I say, that, that was, oh, what happened after that is when the shit hit the fan, back with, you know, and Burt was forced into retirement and all of that. So a lot of it was curtailed, and we Vipers went to other areas.

• 2:23:07AJ Gentile?

  Well, speaking of UFOs, can you talk about advanced theoretical physics and what you're, what you're doing there?

• 2:23:18Speaker 06

  Well, you know, had put together a group, well, inter-agency group, or, my initial hypothesis, I was working with another guy who has kind of faded out and doesn't want to be named, but it was somebody who worked at Lockheed, uh, Skunk Works. Um, the hypothesis was, A, Roswell's real, that there's something big going on, and this is something

• 2:23:56Speaker 06

  that still emerges, that people want to get the word out. So we put the group together, and it was at the TSSCI level, uh, literally old boys, had to know them, had almost all of the intelligence community, uh, the major players certainly, and the aerospace industry, and people who were interested, and got together, and we're using BDM facilities. Interesting, I got to, Joe Vatic was the B of, of BDM. Uh, Burt, by the way, in this time, he also came, because he had, when he retired, he went and became Vice President for Intelligence

• 2:24:41Speaker 06

  at, at BDM. So we had their facilities that we could use. Um, had put it together, uh, this is the early days of FOIA as well, and one of the things that, you know, surprised people who created FOIA was the number of requests that they got for UFOs. So that's why I came up with the name Advanced Theoretical, thinking nobody's going to ask for, you know...

• 2:25:12AJ Gentile?

  You were dodging FOIA?

• 2:25:13Speaker 06

  Files on it, yeah.

• 2:25:14AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:25:15Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And, um, you know, it was, well, let's see where this goes. We had several meetings. Um, by the way, one requirement that did not hold was no records. So, you know, the intent was that there wouldn't be, you know, any written records. Now, eventually I had briefings that I used from on and on.

• 2:25:42AJ Gentile?

  Is this declassified, this, this is declassified by now, yeah? This is declassified?

• 2:25:47Speaker 06

  It never was classified.

• 2:25:48AJ Gentile?

  Never was classified?

• 2:25:49Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, like I say, this is, this is not official.

• 2:25:54AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:25:55Speaker 06

  By the way, one of the things that I, I point out, this is according, and if you see with OSAP and ATIP and that, most of these come from the bottom up.

• 2:26:06AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:26:07Speaker 06

  This is not ones where, you know, the hierarchy says, do this, and it comes down. We're probably getting into some of the people that were involved, but it was, um, you know, so we, I said, our supposition was, if we do this, certainly going to get noticed at some point, and people

• 2:26:30AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:26:30Speaker 06

  come and slap our hands and say, don't do that, uh, which never did happen.

• 2:26:36AJ Gentile?

  What was, when you spun up that group, what were you trying to find?

• 2:26:41Speaker 06

  Well, A, we were still dealing with hard craft kinds of things that were going on, and who would be involved in, you know, if there was a project. Now, I, eventually, I moved up the food chain higher and higher, and I did brief or interact with the director or deputy director of all of those three letter agencies. And the story I tell, one of the most interesting ones, the global agency, and, um, by the way, the answer was always the same, was we don't do that. And then, but the guy says, A, we don't do that, there's

• 2:27:23Speaker 06

  no requirements to even report on it. B, I'll tell you about the ones I saw. So here's a guy who's now head of agency, lots of resources, has had personal experience, and he went back into things that he had seen years before. He says, they were flying around and doing things I knew we didn't have the capability for, uh, but that did not transition to his, so I'll put together a small group to go look for it, or whatnot. But these are the kinds of things that run counter to the quote, "legacy program."

• 2:27:59AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:27:59Speaker 06

  Could they have lied to me? Quite possibly. Everybody? You know, and these weren't like a week apart going down, they put a call and all of that, what's happened over years.

• 2:28:14AJ Gentile?

  So you didn't believe in a retrieval program, I guess, until Grush and that, those groups came forward, right?

• 2:28:21Speaker 06

  Until what?

• 2:28:22AJ Gentile?

  Until David Grush and some of those other guys? Because you've changed a little bit, yes?

• 2:28:29Speaker 06

  This is where I get to my, my data does not match.

• 2:28:35AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:35Speaker 06

  And in fact, as you know, I've dealt with quite a few of the senior folks in that. I've not met Grush, respect to him and his background in that. The twins just don't go together.

• 2:28:52AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:53Speaker 06

  And I've told you now, the agencies, and fast forward a bit, we decide to transition to a formal funded program. So where's the logical place to go is SDI. SDI at the time is, you know, the biggest program in defense, it's five billion at the time. Kind of uniquely, a meeting is set up with me and I have an entourage going in and meet with General Abramson, who's three-star commander of SDI.

• 2:29:38Speaker 06

  And my experience was quite different. We walked in and introduced who's the agencies involved and all of that. And so I start UFO 101. And you go, wait, wait, wait, who are you guys really? I mean, this to me is like a guy deer caught in the headlights, and I don't think he was faking. Could have been, if it was, it was quite an act. Went around the room in different agencies. NSA was one that a guy gave his stuff.

• 2:30:21Speaker 06

  The thing that stunned me there was, we were giving him the Soviet data, and he says, where did you get that? And he was like, he did not understand our intercept capability.

• 2:30:33AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:30:33Speaker 06

  That got scary because it was in, you know, can they do that? And I said, yeah, I think they're pretty good at it. Fast forward, this goes on an hour or two. We finally get to the end, and I say, you know, we'd like to get blessing and, you know, a formal program. And he goes, I can't touch this. He says, if I get caught doing this, I will, you know, just lose all credibility and friends. So the point was, I don't believe, in fact, he went on to say, look, you got my attention. I'm an old fighter pilot, and you got my attention.

• 2:31:15Speaker 06

  And we are soon going to be monitoring more of space than has ever been done before. If you can tell me what to look for, I'm willing to put some algorithms in. But if I get caught doing this. And this is where, you know, the people who else, I just do not understand the Pentagon, in fact, some of the key people, and I told them, take a decade off and go learn how the system works. Because it is terribly complex, it is terribly competitive, and that includes in the black world as well as the white world. And everybody, like I said, one of my favorite comments was, I'm gonna go find the money

• 2:32:00Speaker 06

  when I was working in the building. And you go, there are gnomes out there with pots of gold or something that you go, what it means you're gonna steal it from somebody else's program or find it, you have to reprogram the funds. And that occurs in the black world just as it does in the white world. You know, he did lose a billion dollars.

• 2:32:22AJ Gentile?

  He did?

• 2:32:23Speaker 06

  In funding, but that's from other, but the point was, his point was, well, people, because his program was so big and visible, that, you know, everybody looking for money, well, where do you look, because people who have money?

• 2:32:36AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:32:37Speaker 06

  They're the banks. And he did, and it was shortly after that, I got a very, I am convinced, unrelated call. It says, we want you to move to a new assignment. And it was one, you had to be a colonel and breathe. And I said, you gotta be shitting ass. I am running the highest, high-tech stuff in the military, and you want me to go do what? And, you know, where General Stillwell came back into the program, because he was a supporter,

• 2:33:19Speaker 06

  and we didn't cover this, he had intervened before. Another side story about how we, how I ended up in INSCOM, actually, and before that, was that it was the new mental battlefield article had come out. And I had attended a couple of conferences in the Washington area and weird stuff and all that. And there was a colonel's wife who was running one of them, Jeanne Eek, and she was friends with the General Stillwell's wife. Stillwell is now retired four-star, who's the number two guy in the Pentagon.

• 2:34:01Speaker 06

  So what happens was, they, a meeting gets up, and I remember, I'm a munchkin down in, literally in the bowels of the Pentagon. So a meeting is set up for, I'm, because of new mental battlefield, I'm supposed to go meet with him. So about 12:30 this particular day, I go, now, what's unique here? You know, munchkins do not go see SecDEF and Deputy SecDEF.

• 2:34:28AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:34:28Speaker 06

  Without a head bobber, you know, flag officers who are, that didn't happen. That was one-on-one, me and him.

• 2:34:37AJ Gentile?

  Were you nervous about what does the general want? Or you knew what he wanted?

• 2:34:41Speaker 06

  This was just a generic, come and talk to him. But this had been set up again through the wives and all of that. So anyway, I went up and we had a very interesting conversation. He says, well, who do you work for? I said, I work for General Treffery, and he was the inspector general, and blah, blah. No, okay, well, this is really interesting, so thank you. And I left, and I said, well, that was interesting. And I go back down to my office about one o'clock, and about 4:15, the chief of staff of IG comes in and says, tomorrow morning, you don't work here anymore.

• 2:35:17AJ Gentile?

  That was that?

• 2:35:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, move me.

• 2:35:20AJ Gentile?

  So you had to take that assignment, you couldn't refuse it?

• 2:35:23Speaker 06

  Well, another war story, a friend of mine, who had been at, had worked at the Military Personnel Center, and I bumped into him in the Pentagon, you know, one day, and he's looking, this is years later, and he says, you know, I had to keep your file in my desk drawer, because we had nowhere to put it.

• 2:35:50AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:35:51Speaker 06

  You know, and like I said, the promotion thing, this, I got handed from the time, yeah, I made major, yeah, I was never assigned by the system again, until they pissed me off. And I said, thanks, and then Los Alamos came along.

• 2:36:11AJ Gentile?

  And then NIDS came along. Can you?

• 2:36:16Speaker 06

  Well, that's two iterations later.

• 2:36:19AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:36:19Speaker 06

  That's after Los Alamos and...

• 2:36:21AJ Gentile?

  So can you talk about that Sunday morning in your kitchen? I think Hal, Hal was there, Jacques was there, and you get a phone call from Bob?

• 2:36:30Speaker 06

  Well, that's another coincidence.

• 2:36:32AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:36:33Speaker 06

  If you will. Yeah, I was working at Los Alamos, I lived in Santa Fe, had a meeting with a number of people in, Jacques and Hal were two of them, I forget who all was there. But it's Sunday morning, so we're getting ready to take people back to Albuquerque for the flights, and the phone rings, and it's, I, I'm Bob Bigelow, I've heard about you, are there any areas that might be of interest? The rest, they say, is kind of, as a matter of fact, there was a guy who did get funded, who was there, Ferris Williams, has since died, but who got an independent, you know, project.

• 2:37:18Speaker 06

  Now, this is before NIDS and all of that. In fact, we had, he came over, and we went to the Santa Fe Institute, looked at, he said, maybe one, said, well, Miri Galman is kind of the guy at Santa Fe Institute, and this is Chaos Theory that they're working. And I had other friends who were supportive, who worked with them. It's probably not a good fit, and then he decided, well, he would create NIDS, but he wanted to be in Las Vegas, and that's what brought me here.

• 2:37:55AJ Gentile?

  What turned Bob on to Skinwalker Ranch? How did he learn about that?

• 2:38:02Speaker 06

  There were some articles, as far as I know, there were some articles that were published, probably in Deseret News, and about Sherman's and the ranch and that. Exactly how he made contact, I don't know. I was with him the day that he physically bought the ranch, though, and first one to spend the night.

• 2:38:24AJ Gentile?

  You were?

• 2:38:25Speaker 06

  The first, again, of the NIDS people, I mean, obviously, Terry and Gwen were, I was saying, and it is a very, very strange place, no doubt about that. I mean, the incidents that happened. Having said that, a bit of a digression.

• 2:38:51Speaker 06

  Lost a bubble there a minute.

• 2:38:53AJ Gentile?

  That's right.

• 2:38:54Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 2:38:55AJ Gentile?

  I have plenty more, plenty more questions.

• 2:38:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:38:58AJ Gentile?

  That first night, I think you said, "Nothing happened." Nothing happened the first night?

• 2:39:03Speaker 06

  Nothing unique happened, no.

• 2:39:05AJ Gentile?

  But eventually, you saw some things there?

• 2:39:07Speaker 06

  I... Now, this is one of the questions that comes up.

• 2:39:13Speaker 06

  By the way, it translates to Chris as well. One of the things I asked him, "Is it the place, or is it the person?"

• 2:39:21AJ Gentile?

  I was gonna ask you that.

• 2:39:22Speaker 06

  And we have, you know...

• 2:39:27Speaker 06

  Lots of strange things have happened around me.

• 2:39:31Speaker 06

  But as far as, you know...

• 2:39:37Speaker 06

  I have seen some things and all that, but they tend to be... I tend to be more of a catalyst, if you will. Jesse Ventura is who I was thinking of.

• 2:39:47AJ Gentile?

  That's right.

• 2:39:47Speaker 06

  That he came in and interviewed me and was interested. He said, "Well, can I go up there and do that?" I said, "No, A, probably not, but B, you try to be bored." Because the problem is that these amazing incidents have happened, but it's not like every night, you know, they go out, "Oh, tonight, we're gonna have X, Y, Z happen." Contrary to the program. One of the reasons they shoot rockets is because they got, you know, an incident, something to photograph. But, yeah, but some of the things that did happen

• 2:40:29Speaker 06

  are just absolutely beyond belief.

• 2:40:33AJ Gentile?

  For example, is this a baby goat, or is it a baby calf?

• 2:40:37Speaker 06

  Well, calf is one. What that particular incident is that they... Terry's at the ranch. Terry stayed on, cabbie season, and he walks out. He goes out, and people are familiar with the ranch now, perfectly flat, the escarpment to the north, and the trees further out. Finds a newborn calf and tags it and weighs it. They tag it to identify it to the mother. Drives across the, again, wide open field, 10 o'clock, bright sunny day, etc., and he finds another newborn calf. And he tags it and weighs it, and he comes back. Calf one's dead. Mother's going out of his line.

• 2:41:21Speaker 06

  There's a huge amount of stuff is just missing.

• 2:41:25AJ Gentile?

  From the animal?

• 2:41:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's been eviscerated, exsanguinated, and, you know, where the tag was, was cut off, looked like a laser cut and all of that.

• 2:41:41Speaker 06

  The science board looked at... We had Terry come in. Well, Georgia Net was working with it. It was the DMV, and it was blowing up that day. We had Terry secure the sign, got our vet on site and all of that.

• 2:41:57Speaker 06

  People said, "Well, the exsanguination of the blood went into the ground."

• 2:42:06Speaker 06

  I had suggested to them, "They go to nearby slaughterhouse, get blood, and come back and pour it on the ground." And weeks later, you'd say, "You know, blood was poured on the ground here."

• 2:42:18AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:42:18Speaker 06

  So, there's no way that this went. The science board, SAB, that, as you know, world-class sorts of folks, and Hal and Jock and Kit, and all of them are involved. They're on the... It's on the website where they were. Was that whatever happened, didn't happen there.

• 2:42:42AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 2:42:43Speaker 06

  Now, how do you explain that? Again, we know in our reality, we know the elapsed time, 45 minutes-ish, bright sunny day. We looked at all of the possibilities of how predators kill and that. None of them do anything like this.

• 2:43:02AJ Gentile?

  You had cameras on there yet?

• 2:43:03Speaker 06

  Hmm?

• 2:43:04AJ Gentile?

  You had cameras yet?

• 2:43:07Speaker 06

  Not in that area, no.

• 2:43:09AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:43:09Speaker 06

  No. And now, I've gotta say, Brandon, of course, has put in a lot more sensors than doing a 24-hour, far more than we did.

• 2:43:22Speaker 06

  Not exactly sure of the sequencing on that, because we did have cameras that were facing there, what they now call the command center, looking to the west. And there is one of the most interesting incidents to me. You've got, you know, two cameras here, two cameras in front of us. So, the one's in front, you can see. You have cameras that are up about 20 feet high. Comes down, about half a roll of duct tape, holding them in PVC, going back into, you know, then recording. So, you know when the recording... And what happens is, in the front cameras, the wires are pulled loose up at the top.

• 2:44:08Speaker 06

  You come down, the PVC is pulled out. There's about a three-foot chunk of wire that's just missing from this. Now, what was really interesting about it, this was kind of early evening, and it just happens that the cattle, at that time, were right around the posts. And we know that if anybody approaches the cattle, they would scatter.

• 2:44:32AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:44:34Speaker 06

  Nothing happened. The other thing is, this camera that's looking straight at it, and we have a second and a third time-lapse photography on it, nothing. Now, how did all of this stuff happen and not get recorded?

• 2:44:51AJ Gentile?

  Because it doesn't want to be recorded.

• 2:44:55Speaker 06

  Well, like I say, it's a very, very strange place. And they had, you know, many more incidents, but it's not like it's a daily thing. It's not like you can go out and... Brandon, now, if you go up, you have to sign literally life releases and all of that to go on. I think as people...

• 2:45:22Speaker 06

  I think the staff, you know, people who work for him are really good.

• 2:45:29AJ Gentile?

  You mentioned something about precognitive

• 2:45:31Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:45:32AJ Gentile?

  with the ranch. Does that mean that the future exists and can be read? Or does that mean they can sense your intent?

• 2:45:41Speaker 06

  That's two different questions. When you say "they..."

• 2:45:45AJ Gentile?

  I don't know, "it"?

• 2:45:46Speaker 06

  I'm not, yeah. Well, that's why I use "it," and I have no idea how to find it. When you get into the theoretical aspects, and that, is it possible that the past, present, and future are all concurrent? So, it's not a, you know, timeframe? And it gets into almost imponderable. I actually use the blood one, because it seemed to know that we would bore the blood, and, you know, before this, it'd become another conundrum.

• 2:46:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:46:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, more and more possibilities that just get to be terribly, terribly complex and hard to... The issue of what we do see in this, and I think all of these phenomena, are that the, you know, our concept of time is wrong as we know it, as we experience it, as opposed to, you know, what time may or may not be.

• 2:46:55AJ Gentile?

  Because there's intent with these actions.

• 2:46:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:46:59AJ Gentile?

  But we don't know what it wants. It just seems to want to mess with us.

• 2:47:02Speaker 06

  Well, but you've mentioned something I think is bigger, and that's the issue of intent in all of these areas. What's the... You know, for people who become psychic or work with these things, intention seems to impact and maybe precipitate reality. But then, how can that happen in the future if it's happening concurrently?

• 2:47:27AJ Gentile?

  That's interesting.

• 2:47:30AJ Gentile?

  Any hitchhiker effect with you and some of this stuff?

• 2:47:35Speaker 06

  Well, you've seen my slide, I guess, on...

• 2:47:38AJ Gentile?

  I have.

• 2:47:39Speaker 06

  And I think that's bigger. The answer for me is no. With others, just so what people know what we're talking about.

• 2:47:52Speaker 06

  There are many reports of people who have left the ranch and start having strange experiences. And the hitchhiker specifically refers to beings or entities or something, as well as a number of psychic kinds of events that have happened. I do know that many of them happen. The slide that I use, and I think this gets to be problematic when you get to, how are you going to study this? I'll take it from a government's perspective. We start on this. I don't think governments, I don't see how they can be involved with these sorts of things.

• 2:48:36Speaker 06

  It's one thing for you to study flying saucers, widgets, even orbs and that. To study werewolves is something quite different. The werewolf story is real. The individual may choose to come forward. I have met him.

• 2:48:56AJ Gentile?

  You've met the werewolf?

• 2:48:57Speaker 06

  No, I met the person.

• 2:48:58AJ Gentile?

  You met the person?

• 2:48:59Speaker 06

  Who was a very senior individual, living in the Washington area, who had visited the ranch. And looked out and standing on hind legs in the backyard with red eyes as a werewolf. And they go running off on, you know, Bank Lane. How do you, you know, I think from a political perspective, it would be suicide to go in.

• 2:49:29AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 2:49:30Speaker 06

  Enough to say, I want to spend money to study UFOs and hard widgets, and now we're making the case that it's even permissible. And it's one of the advantages that's come for is making, you know, permissible to, you know, to study these things. But to now say, I'm also going to sell the whole field of cryptozoology.

• 2:49:54Speaker 06

  Column, for instance, talks about being, this is in the Skinwalkers in the Pentagon, but talks about a dinosaur, small, but a dinosaur, walking by and that. And you've seen in the program, the whole dire wolf thing.

• 2:50:14AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:50:14Speaker 06

  Things that, you know, have been extinct for 10,000 years. And so, how do you justify, or should, is this the proper role for government? See, I think this is where, you know, governments kind of got a, this is not what governments are to govern, and they are to do certain, specific tasks and that. One of the issues that you brought up in other broadcasts has to do with the Department of Defense, something saying is, I think it's the wrong question. And also, what you have to remember is it is the Department of Defense. By the way, I'm guilty on this, too.

• 2:50:57Speaker 06

  In my UFO book, I said there are two major issues. One was defense, and the other was air safety. But the issue of, you know, saying, no, advanced technology, yeah, can make that sort of case.

• 2:51:16Speaker 06

  The plus side is, again, this has, understanding how governments work. Actually, the DOD would find this great, because this is how you justify, you know. Now, we used to, you know, hypothesize, the Soviet days, you know, that, what's the Soviet threat and all that? You're always projecting threats. Well, if this was a threat, in a way, that's good, because that can justify funding.

• 2:51:44AJ Gentile?

  Yep. You need a boogeyman.

• 2:51:45Speaker 06

  Yeah. Oh, always. We used to, we used to hypothesize what we call FST-3, which was Future Soviet Tank 3. Now, Future Soviet Tank 1 turned out to be the T-90.

• 2:51:59AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:51:59Speaker 06

  You know, that did, but if you looked at the capabilities that we were giving to 2 and 3, which means I need more money to do more research.

• 2:52:09AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:52:09Speaker 06

  And maybe they can do that. I mean, that never-ending cycle. But for them to say they want it, now, of course, that's what they do. They, Department of Defense is supposed to defend from threats. So, we define basically everything as a threat.

• 2:52:27AJ Gentile?

  Is that why the Air Force was at the ranch?

• 2:52:30Speaker 06

  I don't believe they were.

• 2:52:32AJ Gentile?

  I thought they were there for four years. You don't think so?

• 2:52:35Speaker 06

  Air Force?

• 2:52:35AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:37Speaker 06

  You don't think, but I used to get into service rivalry, but I found them the most difficult to work with.

• 2:52:49AJ Gentile?

  On this topic, for sure.

• 2:52:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, no. They would classify the words electromagnetic.

• 2:52:57Speaker 06

  I ran into some of this between Kirtland and Los Alamos and whatnot.

• 2:53:04AJ Gentile?

  The infamous Kirtland.

• 2:53:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, not, yeah.

• 2:53:11Speaker 06

  But again, with the problem, one of the things that I think is going to happen with Arrow, for instance, is my experience in, I personally had survived a lot of weird things and all of that, and actually, but eventually got shown the door.

• 2:53:31AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:32Speaker 06

  As well.

• 2:53:34Speaker 06

  This is not what you'd call career-enhancing.

• 2:53:37AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:53:37Speaker 06

  I mean, if you're going to move up any of these, there are certain things you're supposed to do, gates and whatnot. This is not one of them.

• 2:53:47AJ Gentile?

  You mentioned about, they don't want to fund werewolves. Is this a naming problem? You know, UFOs, no. UAPs, yes.

• 2:53:54Speaker 06

  No. UAPs change, and it does extrapolate a bit in the broader phenomena. The one you brought up with Jeremy on underwater, for instance, and I don't know if you get Tim Gallaudet in, talk about, you know, the underwater aspects of this, which we've known forever.

• 2:54:18Speaker 06

  But, yeah, the name fits better. UFOs did come with baggage, no doubt about that, because the objects weren't all flying. But, and the downside, though, is you broaden that too much, and I believe Lou ran into this, with funding in ATAP, because they were trying to do unclassified and that. And people say, I do advance threats.

• 2:54:48AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:54:49Speaker 06

  So, yeah. And again, this gets back to not understanding, the funding cycles are absolutely vicious.

• 2:54:59AJ Gentile?

  Before I get into Death and Consciousness, I just wanted to remind us that you wanted to read a passage from your book at some point. So, don't let me forget.

• 2:55:09Speaker 06

  Well, okay, we can do that.

• 2:55:11AJ Gentile?

  Unless you want to fire it off now.

• 2:55:13Speaker 06

  Well, one as well. It is, in the end, well, by the way, the first line that I wrote in the book is, UFOs are real. So, that's the starting point.

• 2:55:25Speaker 06

  In the end, it is clear the universe is far more complex than we ever imagined. We are not close to solving the enigmas posed by UFOs. Rather, we are still on the front end of defining the fundamental issues and boundaries. And the think, notion that we're going to get quick answers or something?

• 2:55:47AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:55:47Speaker 06

  Or that there is, I guess the one thing I would disagree with in The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch is the secret, and I would make it secrets. I mean, it's not that simple, whatever, because there are so many different things going on there and in other places as well.

• 2:56:08AJ Gentile?

  I guess we're part of that same consciousness, that whatever's doing weird things at the ranch, we're all part of that. Again, it seems like a dark force.

• 2:56:18Speaker 06

  Well, is it dark?

• 2:56:23Speaker 06

  Where it gets terribly difficult to contemplate is the notion of that everything is one, that you and I are not separate. I think one of the greatest illusions is the illusion of separation. But it's very hard to contemplate how we can be the same and yet different. And I heard you mention the other one, you know, end of war.

• 2:56:51Speaker 06

  I'm dealing with some folks, young ladies now, who are developing a program that they hope to raise consciousness in general population.

• 2:57:02Speaker 06

  And how you explain this in terms, I mean, it is terribly, almost incomprehensible to begin with. This is one of the reasons, things I like about Evan Alexander's books on it, is he talks about these levels of complexity and impossible for us. But if we are all one, you take Larry Doss's, you know, you know, non-local reality and certainly things like war make absolutely no sense, however. And you hear this, you know, you're, by doing bad things, you're harming yourself, is just hard to

• 2:57:46AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:57:47Speaker 06

  rectify from the physical perspective

• 2:57:49AJ Gentile?

  That's true.

• 2:57:50Speaker 06

  that we live in today. I would also mention that if you look at the Greek, one of our problems, they say, the answer is love. You know, kind of, what does that mean? Is that the Greeks had 12 different words for various forms of love. So, you know, that's not a catch-all that's going to be useful.

• 2:58:15AJ Gentile?

  No. Tell me about that eighth night when you had, you were in a tent in Siberia for a bunch of nights. Night number eight was weird.

• 2:58:26Speaker 06

  Well, actually, when we had been, well, no, we were in Mongolia and near the Siberian border. We had been up right on the, where we were chasing reindeer shamans. I've dealt with shamans all over the world.

• 2:58:42AJ Gentile?

  What's a reindeer shaman?

• 2:58:43Speaker 06

  Well, they're the people that herd reindeers.

• 2:58:46AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:58:47Speaker 06

  I mean, like, we have cattle, they have reindeer.

• 2:58:51AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I thought it was something, they turned into reindeers at night or something?

• 2:58:55Speaker 06

  No, no, no, no, no. The people live with reindeer. Very unique area. We had the backstory here, we flew to Ulaanbaatar, which is interesting. You fly into Genghis Khan Airport and stayed at Genghis Khan Hotel and etc. Then we flew

• 2:59:17AJ Gentile?

  I didn't know that.

• 2:59:18Speaker 06

  Ulaanbaatar to Marum, which is a small city west. By the way, Mongolia is a big place. Let's say, three times the size of France and that. Then we got in a Land Rover, drove north for about, on a road for about an hour, paved road. All of a sudden turned left and drove into the mountain. It was like driving into the Rockies without a road. And we did that for kind of a number of days. This particular incident, we had driven across country. We were living at a small tent, you know, and the point is, we could

• 3:00:02Speaker 06

  turn it every day upside down, shake it out and clear it, not want it to pop up. There were street tents. My wife and I were in one, the driver and guides had the others. A whole bunch of other stuff that I'm trying to fit into

• 3:00:24AJ Gentile?

  Take your time.

• 3:00:25Speaker 06

  the whole trip. It was just an amazing experience. So, anyway, we, this particular, we had dealt with, not shamans, I have to look up the shaman's name, had been with, doing a healing thing. We had just come back, we had gone up

• 3:00:46AJ Gentile?

  Shaman Bald?

• 3:00:47Speaker 06

  No, Bald is a different one.

• 3:00:50AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 3:00:51Speaker 06

  He's one that where the thing precipitates out.

• 3:00:56AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 3:00:57Speaker 06

  It was rolling. I almost brought that along. I do have these things, I keep them in the safe, because they tend to disappear

• 3:01:05AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 3:01:06Speaker 06

  if you don't have it. Bald we had seen going in. See, then we had stopped and we had gone on horseback. The trucks couldn't go any farther. We were up, we went in two days, two days in, two days out. Right on, now, the point here in Siberia, they don't even know where the border is.

• 3:01:28AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 3:01:29Speaker 06

  Okay, this is remote. We're talking really remote, remote areas. But we had come back and we were sleeping on the Shesku River. And like I say, my wife and I, we have, you know, bed mats on there. Wake up the next morning, lying between the two mats is a 50 pence Australian coin.

• 3:01:59AJ Gentile?

  You didn't bring that in?

• 3:02:01Speaker 06

  No. But, and I don't believe any people went in the night and threw one in or something like that. You're up on, like I say, near Siberia, and here appears a 50 pence Australian coin.

• 3:02:18AJ Gentile?

  What do you think that meant?

• 3:02:19Speaker 06

  It meant there was a 50 pence Australian coin, and I had no idea how it showed up there.

• 3:02:27AJ Gentile?

  What were you doing out in the wilderness? What were you looking for?

• 3:02:30Speaker 06

  The reindeer shaman.

• 3:02:33AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 3:02:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. If we're going to get into it, my wife's a devotee with ayahuasca, and we have dealt with shamans over the world. This was a trip that was afforded us, again, we're the only people, the only foreigners that are involved. And I had a guide who knew where they were. Now, you have to know where they are, because they, they follow the reindeer, the reindeer go. And this, it was getting warm, and one of the problems was that they would go up and lie down on the glaciers. There were small glaciers all

• 3:03:15Speaker 06

  over the place. We walked over them and that. And, yeah, we had set up several ceremonies that were going. It was very interesting. This is where a UFO connection comes in. We got up there, and they live in, like, teepees, that is all separate. By the way, one of the things the Chinese have done is they get solar panels and things, so you get a little bit of electricity and whatnot. But it was interesting that they tended to

• 3:03:53Speaker 06

  be, stay in their individual teepees. And I'm walking by one, and I hear somebody speaking English. That's weird. So, go in, I found out, the woman, well, she's native, she lives there, she used to live in Colorado, had been there long enough. So, scared the crap, it turns out, scared the crap out of our guide, because they thought she was a witch and could bewitch them and whatnot.

• 3:04:26AJ Gentile?

  Why did they think that? Cause?

• 3:04:28Speaker 06

  It was part of the folklore.

• 3:04:31AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 3:04:32Speaker 06

  Why, you know, I know it's the Why Files, but why just doesn't apply in some of these cases. So, anyway, I started talking to her, and I asked her about UFOs, and she told me a whole story about how this valley used to be kind of an alleyway, and, you know, they would see them on a consistent basis. Now, this is an area that had, you know, we were there late, late summer, but gets sealed off. I mean, once you're in, you're there for the duration, kind of like Antarctica or something, but you don't travel in and

• 3:05:14Speaker 06

  out. In fact, it was interesting, because I'd asked her why you lived in Colorado and you're now, you know, living here full-time, and, yeah, I'd given up on Western society and that. But did, say, no, there was a period in which there were lots of UFOs coming to the valley, and they would see them, and kind of a routine matter.

• 3:05:41AJ Gentile?

  Wow, were they craft or orbs?

• 3:05:44Speaker 06

  No, these were, these were craft, as things that they would see, yeah.

• 3:05:48AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 3:05:49Speaker 06

  By the way, you know, well, I think you hit some of the things I mentioned earlier, is what do you mean by a UFO?

• 3:05:55AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 3:05:56Speaker 06

  And addition of orbs is, you know, fairly new wrinkle to the question of whether you should, and it gets into consciousness and orbs and all of that. But, no, this was a traditional craft. Now, one of the things that I heard you and Jeremy mentioning was, what's happened over time, is that you see, why do you see different ones and different kinds of things, and going back in the 1800s with air, airships

• 3:06:26AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 3:06:27Speaker 06

  literally, and people dropping anchors and talking and all of that. And, you know, it does seem, but this, I think, remotes to, or reveres to this issue of, you know, consciousness, where's our consciousness as to, you know, what it is. And in my view, what it seems to do is stay a step ahead of where we are, but not beyond comprehension.

• 3:06:53AJ Gentile?

  Right. Like, orbs is the newest thing, but in another generation could be something different.

• 3:07:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:07:02AJ Gentile?

  So you were looking for shaman. I've heard you say you've tried ayahuasca and you're not a fan of it.

• 3:07:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:07:07AJ Gentile?

  What did you see when you were in there?

• 3:07:10Speaker 06

  Oh, psychedelics are absolutely brilliant, there's no doubt.

• 3:07:18AJ Gentile?

  Can confirm.

• 3:07:19Speaker 06

  Hmm?

• 3:07:20AJ Gentile?

  I can confirm that.

• 3:07:21Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 3:07:23Speaker 06

  Well, we have dealt with ayahuasca, shall we use premier with Santa Daima?

• 3:07:29AJ Gentile?

  Uh-uh.

• 3:07:30Speaker 06

  The Santa Daima is a religion based on, they use ayahuasca is the substance that's going with it. We may get down, we did in Cortiba in southern Brazil as well. Most of our stuff is in the Amazon, in Akitos, and have also been in Ecuador.

• 3:07:52Speaker 06

  First of all, this is never gonna become, you know, a recreational drug.

• 3:07:57AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 3:07:59Speaker 06

  The side effects that come along are significant, politely.

• 3:08:08Speaker 06

  And you also, Victoria has learned how to work with this. It's, I guess, the first few times that you, you know, mostly, she, golly, look at this, you know, the bright things and all of that. But what's most interesting with her, this is mostly second, what would happen, by the way, at these ceremonies, is that I would normally, I've only tried a couple of times, used it once, another time was Santa Daima in Brazil.

• 3:08:44Speaker 06

  But being the one who was not drug, I would run all the recorders, because I have the manual dexterity left to function with it.

• 3:08:55Speaker 06

  I can say that, in my view, psychopharmacology does not address the issue that's involved. I have seen people take small amounts and have transformational experiences. I've seen them take huge amounts and have no effect whatsoever. Gets back to intention and preparation. I do think that if you're going to do, by the way, a word of caution out there, really do, if you're going to do this, know the shaman or with whom you're working. Because, yeah, and particularly as it's gotten popular, that there are some less than scriptulous folks, particularly for women, being in there.

• 3:09:41Speaker 06

  But you really do need, having said that, and I do see there are now talking about some PTSD, you know, some research going into it, you know, Sean and them talk about using Abogine.

• 3:09:57Speaker 06

  That surprised me a bit, but in under controlled conditions, the stuff from Africa, that shit'll kill you.

• 3:10:05AJ Gentile?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:10:06Speaker 06

  If you're not careful. And one of the problems with all of these are, there's no quality control. And I've found that each shaman kinda has their own recipe, and they kinda put stuff together, and they look, and the same with dosage. They look at you and say, well, here's the amount you need.

• 3:10:31AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, I would recommend going to, like, a lucium or with a doctor.

• 3:10:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, yeah, just not to be taken lightly.

• 3:10:41AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 3:10:41Speaker 06

  But I do think there are effects that, you know, and PTSD, who was it? This was life. She was there with the guys, we do with Ron Huelak, who's known as the gringo shaman down in Akitos. Interestingly, one of the few that have not jacked up prices and all that, as it has become better known.

• 3:11:10Speaker 06

  I was gonna tell you, Victoria's experience, the most exchange, she had a world that goes to and was recognized and whatnot.

• 3:11:20Speaker 06

  The most amazing thing, though, was not on drugs, but at home here in Vegas, and they came here.

• 3:11:30AJ Gentile?

  Who she saw in the DMT world came to Vegas?

• 3:11:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, well.

• 3:11:35AJ Gentile?

  Right, wherever.

• 3:11:36Speaker 06

  This is a mental state.

• 3:11:38AJ Gentile?

  What did she see?

• 3:11:40Speaker 06

  Well, just that, you know, they were coming apparently asking for help, and, but again, this is a mental thing, this is not a physical being showing up.

• 3:11:52AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 3:11:52Speaker 06

  And showing there.

• 3:11:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, by the way, the most unusual thing that I saw, we were at, you know, Condemble?

• 3:12:04AJ Gentile?

  Uh-uh.

• 3:12:05Speaker 06

  Okay, these are African voodoo ceremonies and all that, and we had gone, we've gone several, but Ombando and Condemble are a couple of, these are from West Africa that came over. We were in Cortiba, Brazil, and went to a Condemble ceremony, no drugs. And they started, now there's about, in this case, there are about 10 foreigners there, they're Western, and probably 200, 300 people who were there who attended these ceremonies all of the time.

• 3:12:48Speaker 06

  And so they said, there was a priest that said, does anybody want, well, Victoria always volunteers, she runs down, and this woman goes, she's going down doing the, and this,

• 3:13:04Speaker 06

  we're in the possession now, okay, real, full-scale possession.

• 3:13:09AJ Gentile?

  Your wife?

• 3:13:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. And all of a sudden, she's out on the floor spinning, we got photos of this, she's spinning. Now, these are people who are used to seeing possession, and not with gringos, you know.

• 3:13:24AJ Gentile?

  Did you expect that? How does the Colonel not show?

• 3:13:27Speaker 06

  No, we didn't. As a matter of fact, I went up, was taking pictures, and the guy grabs me, he says, you're a reporter? And I said, no, that's my wife, she'll be okay.

• 3:13:37AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 3:13:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. And her description of it is something allowing this entity, entity of body to experience whatever. She had no idea of what went on during that period, but it was kinda okay. But it was really dramatic.

• 3:13:58AJ Gentile?

  So she doesn't remember seeing anything in there?

• 3:14:01Speaker 06

  No, no, no, this is, I think, allowing them to experience a human thing temporarily. Now, we've had other, we were in, probably don't know, Victoria, Brazil, I was down

• 3:14:20Speaker 06

  talking, this gets into non-lethal area, and I'd been brought down talking to the government, to their military police, and had looked up, and she had found a Buddhist ceremony in, well, Ombando ceremony in Victoria, and we convinced our guy, had an amazing guy with us, who was a special assistant to the governor, happened to have had identic imagery in that, and I also had a police, military police major. So we're going into the favela with, you know, to say we were greeted with skepticism,

• 3:15:01Speaker 06

  you know, true.

• 3:15:04Speaker 06

  So anyway, so we go in, they say, who are you? Two Americans, you know, kinda weird, and had heard about them and all that. So they let us in, and the ceremony starts, and it goes on for several hours, and so they're gonna take a break, and this is mid, now getting later afternoon, so our guys and they've gotta leave, they say, I'll leave and I'll come back and pick you up. And they came to Victoria and said, no, no, you can't leave. And it turns out, you know, here are the people we've never seen before who recognize her.

• 3:15:45AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 3:15:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, and we've had that before, and there, we've had this in Rio too, in the ceremony, saying, you know, here's the goddess to call, and all of that, pretty, they say, unusual circumstance.

• 3:16:01AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. Is there any connection with the DMT world and NDEs?

• 3:16:11Speaker 06

  Well, is there any connection? There are those who think that DMT is a... No, understand, the methotriptamine is the precipitating agent. It is not the thing. No, it allows access to... I would equate it to more like it's turning on the set.

• 3:16:31AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:16:32Speaker 06

  You know, the stuff, you're now accessing that channel.

• 3:16:36AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 3:16:37Speaker 06

  If you will. NDEs... There are folks who think that you can get a spontaneous release of DMT or something. Mary Neill talked about it. She goes, "No, does not believe that to be the case, that we're spontaneously generating it." And that, because that gives you the potential for saying we're talking about hallucinations. But like I say, it hurts cases where in the precognitive years in advance and, you know...

• 3:17:19Speaker 06

  In general, I don't want to put in anything that suggests that we're dealing with hallucination because that's not the issue. Now, people interpret these things in very well, various ways. The other thing, I said, I was the president of IONs for a long time, and we had no staff whatsoever, so letters would come in, and I would answer them. And one of them was, "Well, I wasn't close to death, but..." "I was out of body, I had this, I had that," and whatnot. And also with NDEs, most of them are spontaneous, and you have no idea of whether people are

• 3:18:03Speaker 06

  physically close to death or not. I use Mary Neill's case because underwater for 30, 35 minutes, there's no doubt that we had lost physical capability. I've heard this from a number of others. However, most of the cases are spontaneous, outside accidents, illness, or something like this, so they're not instrumented. You know, the... Pat... Oh, I'm blanking on the name. Because Pam Reynolds is the name, is the most, probably most famous case in this, but she's not alone.

• 3:18:47Speaker 06

  And this is a case in which a young woman had a brain aneurysm deep in the brain, had some small children, was doing a very risky operation, survival 50/50, wouldn't have done it except for young and whatnot. And the point here was that they had stopped the big will, they had to, they drained the blood out of the body, but they had the stethoscope on, so they're firing electrical charge in, measuring the cortical activity of the brain. You have sensation of heart, sensation of breathing, sensation of cortical electrical activity of the brain.

• 3:19:29Speaker 06

  By medical definition, this is not near death, this is death itself. And talks about a number of things. She's one, out of the room, big one was complaining, they were playing Hotel California, which she thought was inappropriate. You can check in, but you can never check out.

• 3:19:49AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 3:19:50Speaker 06

  But awareness of, you know, what everybody was doing at that time. And then goes off and meets with folks. It's like the one with Mary, she has the original, you know, awareness at the location, but then going off into others, and again, in different time-space dimensions as we know it. There are a few others. Was it Barba? There was Dr. Barba, who was an anesthesiologist, who similarly had an instrumented death, where you can, you know, confirm, you know, what their physical state is at the time, and so therefore you

• 3:20:34Speaker 06

  cannot attribute it to hallucination. But I think when you get a transferance of information that, you know, proves out, proves to be accurate. You know Bruce Grayson, because Bruce, and I recommend his book, After, is one of the key ones. Bruce is a good friend, but he talks about what got him going as a psychiatrist in the hospital in the University of Virginia, going down the hall and talking to people, and then the person say, "Oh, you talked to him, you're the one with..." He talks about being a spot on his tie and all of that.

• 3:21:13Speaker 06

  So you get, you know, externally verifiable information that there's not any normal means of that being transferred.

• 3:21:24AJ Gentile?

  My dad had one during an operation, and he knew what was going on. How about shared death experiences? Have you looked into those?

• 3:21:35Speaker 06

  Oh, you can't not. Let me digress just a bit.

• 3:21:39AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 3:21:40Speaker 06

  But this has to do with the progression of NDEs. I say, we came into it... Well, IONs was formed late 70s. We're talking about near death, and we would, frankly, at ION, never would have considered having mediums or things like that involved, the whole after-death communication. They're now the rock stars at the conferences and whatnot. So you have had kind of a progression from NDEs. Now, what you're talking about, the shared death experiences, is one where there's multiple

• 3:22:22Speaker 06

  people, not they're dying, but that are sharing the experience, and some of them continue on, and the humans, and they talk about things like physical changes that take place, the shapes of the room and whatnot. Another one that's getting, terminal acidity is an issue that's now arising, and you can sometimes get shared death. This is where people who have been mentally incapacitated for a long period of time, shortly before death, start talking to relatives and seeing entities.

• 3:22:58AJ Gentile?

  Even when, even when their brain is diseased, like from Alzheimer's or something, they're lucid.

• 3:23:06Speaker 06

  Yep. And like I said, this is a field that's sort of evolving, so you had instant near-death communication or near-death studies, which is this real kind of thing, and these cases are in the millions. I mean, we're...

• 3:23:22AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 3:23:23Speaker 06

  You know, I was surprised that, you know, flying on, traveling, you know, quite a bit, and you talk to people, you know, how many people say, you know, again, this gets back to all was there, so it's a matter of awareness and acceptability that, you know, it's okay to talk about these things and, you know, and openness. But, you know, at the time, Ghost and any number of other movies and TV programs now become kind of standard issue things, but...

• 3:24:01AJ Gentile?

  Did you talk about this stuff with Bob Bigelow at all? I know that he's very, very into the field.

• 3:24:12Speaker 06

  Oh, what?

• 3:24:15AJ Gentile?

  Bob Bigelow.

• 3:24:17Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 3:24:18AJ Gentile?

  Oh, specifically near-death experiences. And we had Jeffrey Michalow in here, who won one of Bob's awards.

• 3:24:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, no, of course, I know Jeff, I've known Jeff, the psychic agency, he's with you across town. Well, Jeff had an advantage over everybody because he had been running Thinking Aloud, and now New Thinking Aloud, so he had decades.

• 3:24:45AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 3:24:46Speaker 06

  Worth of, you know, just highest quality people that he could acquire.

• 3:25:03Speaker 06

  Not quite sure. I, some of that would get into personal stuff with him. I think if he wants to talk about it, he could, but he did. Obviously, he had had the ranch and he, as he came to an IONs conference is where they announced it, at the thing. Initially, the contest was not on the radar. That is something that evolved later. But continuation of consciousness is something he's been interested in for a long time.

• 3:25:42Speaker 06

  You know, his, well, the first time I met him was at MIT in 92. John Mack was having, and Dave Pritchard had a conference on abductions versus NDEs. And that's where I gave the first talk on correlation. The bad news was that I was, had to go right after John, and it was a tough act to follow.

• 3:26:13AJ Gentile?

  Tough act.

• 3:26:15Speaker 06

  But having said that, I first met Bob there, but that was just a handshake, I owe you. What I did not know at the time was that his son had died, like, within a month before that. So it had interest. I found out later how many, he went to lots and lots of mediums and very familiar. He had brought Dean Raden into UNLV for a while, so there were the precursor there. And then they set up the Bigelow Chair of Consciousness at UNLV. Charlie Tartt held that initially, and then Raymond came in for a while.

• 3:26:59Speaker 06

  Bad news was that stopped funding it, and they were eating principal, and eventually that ran out. But he's had a long interest and some personal tragedies that have happened there that I'm sure have driven certain factors. And so he decided to set it up, brought Cullen back, and...

• 3:27:26AJ Gentile?

  Well, you, you covered this stuff for so long. Was there anything in your research that you believed and then turned out that you were wrong, or, or the, or the opposite? Something that you didn't believe, that you were surprised that was true?

• 3:27:43Speaker 06

  Well, that's an interesting question. I, I would say there were a lot of things that I would have thought were highly speculative that I'm now willing to accept. Well, we talked about progression in NDEs, and in, oh, the answer to your question is yes, and that has to do with ADC and some things we're doing in after-death communication. You know Gary Schwartz?

• 3:28:16AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:28:17Speaker 06

  I'll be hopefully talking to him tomorrow. We talk periodically. But he was with, he's now retired, but the University of Arizona and working on something called Soulphone.

• 3:28:31AJ Gentile?

  Soulphone?

• 3:28:33Speaker 06

  Yeah. What they're trying to do is to instrument the direct communications, and this is ostensibly with the help of some people that you would know, you know, by, you know, immediately by name and that, who seem to be involved from the other side. What he calls Team A is trying to assist in the communication. But this is, you know, in the 80s, never would have touched them because that's, you know, kind of outside the realm. That's not scientific, and now, now you're getting the point.

• 3:29:18Speaker 06

  And Gary, I was looking him up, he's got a number of books out that, on this, and he's, in fact, the reason we didn't talk yesterday is he was editing a book that is forthcoming on the future of Soulphone.

• 3:29:36AJ Gentile?

  Oh, coming up in two hours, so I think we'll say goodbye, Colonel John Alexander. Thank you very much, it's been a lot of fun. You're local, so anytime you want to come back in, because we didn't talk about directed energy weapons, non-lethal, we still have a lot more to cover.

• 3:29:50Speaker 06

  Whatever.

• 3:29:51AJ Gentile?

  We'll get it, that's, whatever.

• 3:29:53Speaker 06

  It's the real world.

• 3:29:54AJ Gentile?

  Goodbye, everybody. That was Colonel John Alexander. We covered fireproof shamans, spoon-bending parties for army generals, a werewolf in a Washington backyard, and a coin that appeared overnight in a tent in Mongolia. The career, Green Berets, Los Alamos, the Pentagon, well, that's all public record. But some stories need a check-in. Start with the one that sounds made up. John said the army brought in Tony Robbins. Yeah, that Tony Robbins, pre-fame, to teach soldiers to shoot using neuro-linguistic programming. And that's real. John helped run it, and Robbins still tells the story. Everyone qualified in a day. The army fixed its pistol scores with the future king of the firewalking seminar. I love this job. Now, the white cells.

• 3:30:38AJ Gentile?

  Researchers wired people's own white blood cells to a chart recorder in another room. John's personal result? He could beat the polygraph, but he couldn't beat his cells. When the army convened a scientific panel to judge the weirdness, John took them to the lab. Two panel members donated cells. Minutes into John's talk, the man watching the recorder ran in and asked what happened. The report is real. Enhancing Human Performance, National Research Council, 1988. And it found no evidence for any of this. The lab visit wasn't in there, so we have his word. But the story that got me isn't from the lab. In the late 70s, John attended a workshop on death and dying, then mailed a teacher a thank you note. She was Elizabeth Kubler Ross, the Five Stages of Grease Kubler Ross.

• 3:31:20AJ Gentile?

  Weeks later, she called his office and asked to meet, and she told him, "I know a thousand people in Atlanta, and I chose you, and I have no idea why." John heard himself answer, "I think I'm supposed to ask you a question." She ended up running his doctoral committee. That part is on paper. The phone call isn't. Look, I can't follow John everywhere. The werewolf is where I tap out. And I say that as a man who pays his mortgage with werewolf stories. But everything I could check out came back true, so the rest gets patience, and I don't hand out much of that. But John earned it the boarding way, with paperwork. He's local, so there will be a round two. John's books are Reality Denied and UFOs, Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities, both on Amazon, both awesome. And his site is johnbalexander.com.

• 3:32:05AJ Gentile?

  That's John B. Alexander. Everything I mentioned is linked below. I covered the army's spoon-benders in my first Earth Italian episode. That was about John, too. I think he, yeah, I mentioned him in that episode. That's a fun one, though that's the men at Staret Goats. That's about George Cleaning as John, did you know that? I don't think you brought it up. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated.

• 3:32:44Speaker 05

  I played for Libya in Area 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I was. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music. So I'm singing like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends. And it never ends. No, it never ends.

• 3:33:21Speaker 05

  I feared the crackhead and got stuck inside Mel's home with MKL trucks. I'm being only too aware. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set? Would the shadows be over there? The Rockwell aliens just fought the smiling man, I'm told. And his name was Cold. And I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ2. And one more zombie beat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth.

• 3:34:05Speaker 05

  So one more zombie beat all through the night.

• 3:34:27Speaker 05

  The Mothman sightings and the solar storms still come to a god, the secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, planets circle to Project Stargate. And what the dark watchers found. In a simulation, don't you worry though. The black knights had a lot of tomes. So I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ2. And one more zombie beat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth.

• 3:35:11Speaker 05

  So one more zombie beat all through the night. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ2. And one more zombie beat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth. So one more zombie beat all through the night.

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