454: Amie Ichikawa—You Can't Bring a Vagina to a Penis Fight

Mike sits down with Amie Ichikawa—former inmate, prison reform advocate, and founder of Woman II Woman https://www.womaniiwoman.org/, an organization dedicated to protecting the rights and dignity of incarcerated women. Amie shares her firsthand experience in the California prison system, the disturbing reality of fully intact men being housed in women's prisons, and the silence surrounding it. Now on the outside, she's using her voice to protect those still inside. It's a raw conversation about justice, safety, and speaking up for women who have been denied a voice.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hello friends, Mike Rowe here. It's The Way I Heard It. And as many of you know, the guests on this podcast oftentimes wind up choosing the title, just because they've said something pithy and memorable. And this one Chuck, I don't know. I mean certainly top five, maybe top three, maybe the top one, maybe?

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, maybe. I'll just tell you this, as soon as I heard it, I wrote it down and that was it. It was like, you know, we both looked at each other and we kind of went, oh.

• 0:34Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, it's gonna be tough to top that. I wouldn't be shocked to see this on a t-shirt at some point, but for the record, we're calling it "You Can't Bring A Vagina To A Penis Fight." That's a direct quote from our guest, Amy Ichikawa, who could be introduced in any number of ways, but given the blowback that I've been enjoying for the last week after our Peyton McNabb interview, man, I thought we were kind of past this. I thought we had turned a corner and that most people had just kind of given up on the idea that pushing male and females together in various scenarios was in fact, bad juju. But it seems that some people are still clinging on pretty tight.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and to be clear, nobody cares if you want to change your sex, if you're an adult, if you want to dress a certain way, if you want to, you know, even alter your body or your shape, but nobody cares about that. What we care about is competing in women's sports and, you know, men being in women's prisons, which Amy speaks to. That's what's really important and we should all agree on.

• 1:42Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I thought Amy would be worth listening to. I almost said worth talking to, but honestly, she doesn't need to be talked to. She needs to be listened to. And I met her in the state Capitol in Texas a few months ago, where I met Peyton McNabb as well. The Women's Forum was there and they were making the rounds, talking about what's happening in California. And Amy is coming from a place where she believes that women are trying to be erased and that the presence of men in prisons is not only deliberate, but part of...

• 2:17Mike Rowe?

  A project, an experiment, really. And I think she feels very much like a canary in the coal mine. And the more I listen to her, the more I kind of waffled from going, boy, you know, is, how much of this is she imagining? How much of this is conspiracy stuff? And then ultimately coming to, you know what? I don't think any of it is. I don't think she's living her truth. I think she lived the truth. And now I think she's trying to share it.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and she's trying to make a difference in her community. She's really fighting for women, women's rights. And I think this is very similar to the Peyton McNabb episode. And I know that a lot of women reacted to the Peyton McNabb episode in a positive way, saying, you know, thank you so much for doing this. You're gonna feel the same way after you listen to Amy Ichikawa.

• 3:09Mike Rowe?

  It's not just the women, Chuck. Like, I went through, I got thousands of comments, simply because I shared the episode. And most of them were men. And sure, there are some people who disagree reflexively with anything that's, you know, anti-trans, but this isn't anti-trans. This isn't even political. This is just an appeal to be true to some sense of science and biology and logic and common sense. You know, my question, like, the reason to have Peyton on, and I think the reason to double down now with Amy, is because we're going to look back and we're going to wonder

• 3:54Mike Rowe?

  what kind of spell we were put under. And this isn't going to be a torture for people who were dug in firmly on one side or the other. It's going to be a torture for people who sat quietly and listened to the arguments that there was no difference between H sapien with a penis and H sapien with a vagina. And how many people just kind of nodded their heads and said, well, okay, I really don't want to get involved. We're gonna look back on that and we're gonna clutch our pearls anew. And that's what I took from the comments after the last episode. And if I were a betting man, I'd say we're about to see more of the same.

• 4:40Mike Rowe?

  But I'm not a betting man, so I'm simply going to introduce you to Amy Ichikawa with these words of wisdom that will no doubt haunt you for days and weeks and months to come. You can't bring a vagina to a penis fight, especially in prison.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  True dat.

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• 6:34Mike Rowe?

  Amy Ichikawa is in the house. Do people still say "in the house"?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  I think so. I don't know, I don't go out very much. I don't go anywhere, so...

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Well, you're in the house. Don't you hear them say it?

• 6:45Mike Rowe?

  Amy Ichikawa's always in the house.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 6:48Mike Rowe?

  Some sort of house. Oh god, there's probably a big house pun in here somewhere. Is it too soon?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 6:54Mike Rowe?

  Oh, boy. So, earlier, I had a chat with Peyton McNabb, who I finally met in the capital of Texas, where I met you on that same day. And I was rushing around like crazy, and all I had a chance to do was shake your hand, and you muttered something about...

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I remember, I remember.

• 7:13Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you muttered and said, "Oh, dirty jobs and something." And then I had to kind of triangulate to understand what you, and Riley Gaines, and Peyton McNabb, and all those other women had in common. And now I think I know, but since you're sitting here, why don't you just tell me?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Well, we're all ladies.

• 7:31Mike Rowe?

  Yes, you are.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  And I think it's very important that we all know each other and work together because it really reflects that this agenda's coming for all of us, from AYSO to death row.

• 7:43Mike Rowe?

  What's AYSO?

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Uh, girls soccer. From, you know, the volleyball court to death row, they're coming for us. There's no sector of womankind that is exempt from the erasure that they're pressing on us. And there's so many other things going on in the world. This is not getting the attention it needs because we're like 50% of the population.

• 8:08Mike Rowe?

  I think you're more than that, actually.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Fifty-one.

• 8:10Mike Rowe?

  That's what I've heard. They're everywhere, women.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Everywhere, everywhere.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  And, I mean, it's... When I fully understood, after I met the girls, that the same evil that celebrates housing fully intact men who are, you know, registered sex offenders in women's prisons, that's the same evil that thinks it's appropriate for them to have to change their swimsuits, or in front of boys, or...

• 8:45Mike Rowe?

  Well, your story is so extraordinary, and I'm gonna ask you to tell it again. Forgive me, I'm sure you're probably sick of doing it. But it's important for people to understand where you've come from and what your journey is. Because really, I didn't know. A lot, you could fill a book with what I don't know. But I know Riley, and now I know Peyton, and now I understand what the Independent Women's Forum is doing in and around this issue with women's sports. But to your point, it goes so far beyond that. And your experience with it was in which prison?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla.

• 9:22Mike Rowe?

  Where's Chowchilla?

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Nowhere. It's in Madera by Modesto, kinda. It's in the Central Valley. Lovely place. No, it's hot.

• 9:32Mike Rowe?

  It's hot.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  It's hot. I think the day I got off the bus, it was 115 degrees.

• 9:39Mike Rowe?

  This would be the classic grayish bus that takes you to prison?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Yes, with no windows. And the bus door opened after, you know, that three, four hour drive. And the hot wind came in, and I was like, oh.

• 9:55Mike Rowe?

  You're not a cat anymore.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  I'm in hell, yes.

• 9:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:58Mike Rowe?

  Where'd you grow up?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Torrance, you know, LA County, Beach City. And I didn't venture very far. I think Chowchilla is the farthest I've really ever lived. I'm an only child. My dad's a retired LA County Sheriff. My mom was a church lady. And, you know, I thought I had a normal, happy childhood until I started to rebel and really just sought validation and destructive relationships and got on drugs.

• 10:32Mike Rowe?

  And you found them.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  I did.

• 10:34Mike Rowe?

  You found that destructive relationship?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  The most.

• 10:37Mike Rowe?

  You found the drugs. And you're how old at this point when you realized things were starting to spiral?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  I was 24 years old, and I had an apartment, I had two cars. I thought I was doing okay, and then... I met this guy.

• 10:54Mike Rowe?

  Oh, boy.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Which is, you know, very commonplace. Every woman I ever met in prison met some guy. Or so there was this man. And within six months of meeting this person, I was in a humongous amount of debt and looking at twenty-five to life.

• 11:11Mike Rowe?

  Joe, twenty-five to life. Amy, what'd you do?

• 11:16Speaker 02

  There's, you know, I was selling drugs on the weekends. Not to minimize it, but that's what I was doing at the time. I also had my dream job. I was a, I worked with adults with developmental differences and traumatic brain injuries, but that wasn't really cutting the mustard. So I decided to supplement my income. And in the middle of that, I met this guy. And, you know, it was very small time. I wasn't trying to make a career out of this. And he convinced me to dabble in a variety of, you know, street pharmaceuticals that I didn't want to deal with. And this person decided one evening

• 11:58Speaker 02

  we were going to kidnap someone at gunpoint that owed twenty dollars.

• 12:05Mike Rowe?

  Oh, my God.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:07Mike Rowe?

  Oh, how old are you at this point?

• 12:09Speaker 02

  I was twenty-four. I had, I think the day we got picked up, I had just turned twenty-five, maybe. But I was twenty-four, twenty-five.

• 12:20Mike Rowe?

  And how old's the guy?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Actually, much younger. He was twenty. And I didn't know. I thought this person was older.

• 12:28Mike Rowe?

  So somebody owes you guys money over a drug deal?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  And I was like, hey, I gotta go to work in the morning. You know, I gotta go to work tomorrow. It's not a big deal. It's twenty dollars. And by then, it was, it was too late.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Poor girl was in the back of the car already. And, you know, I was driving. And the firearm was tossed over the top of the car to me. And we drove around for a long time. So long that, you know, I was, I didn't know where we were at some point. And it started to get dark. Because when we picked this young lady up or when we kidnapped her at gunpoint, it was still light out. So it got dark. And we were in an alley. And I looked in the rear mirror and I thought it looked like, you know, she was gonna get killed. So I ran out and I said, it's time to go home.

• 13:23Mike Rowe?

  Wait a minute, so your boyfriend is out there with her trying to get the money out of her? And it's going horribly wrong?

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Horribly wrong.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  But, you know, God intervenes in really incredible ways all the time. And gun misfired and we were able to go home after that.

• 13:44Mike Rowe?

  He tried to shoot her?

• 13:46Speaker 02

  And everything, it just didn't work out that way. And then, you know, we took her back to, you know, not far from where we kidnapped her from. And there was already, you know, an APB out for us. And I think multiple people had already called the police.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  So we dropped her off. I had to beat her up. I beat her up and I'm like, I'm sorry. And she said, it's okay, I'll see you tomorrow. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so awkward.

• 14:18Mike Rowe?

  How do you mean you're gonna see her tomorrow?

• 14:20Speaker 02

  She wanted to pay. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I said, I think that means you're paid up at this point, right? So she hands me some, her jewelry and I'm just like,

• 14:31Speaker 02

  this is surreal at this point. I still am not understanding the weight of what just transpired. And not long after that, the entire police department came and got us.

• 14:47Mike Rowe?

  Now, wait a minute, your dad's a sheriff?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yes, and he was still active duty at this point. And he had worked in, as a bailiff in the courthouse that I was in for, I think, like, maybe eleven, a lot of years. He was there for a long time. So I knew a lot of the sheriffs that were working lockup in there. And they were like, what are you doing here? I haven't seen you since you were four years old. I was like, I don't know.

• 15:16Mike Rowe?

  So they booked you?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  They booked, well, before they booked me, they interrogated us for a long time.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  And they had my phone and they saw a picture of my dad in a uniform. Me and my dad. And the detective said, I know this guy. I know this guy, you're never gonna see him again. And I was like, why? Well, are you serious? And he said, you're never gonna see him again. And I said, or what do I have to say? And I told on myself. Because I was freaking out, like, what am I, I'm not gonna see my dad again? I said, okay, I, I, I beat her up. Can I, I have to go to work now, can I go to work? Just totally disconnected.

• 15:56Mike Rowe?

  You have no idea what you're into.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 15:58Mike Rowe?

  Now, your boyfriend's next door, he's probably being interrogated as well.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Interrogated, telling them he had never met me before.

• 16:03Mike Rowe?

  Oh.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  And they, um, they told me, they came back and said, hey, this guy doesn't know you. I said, well, are you sure? They were like, he doesn't know you, just roll. And I said, well, I can't do that. Um, so I said, I, I, I beat her up, she owed me twenty dollars. So then they said, well, here's your charges. And it was this long, incredibly long list. Kidnapping for ransom, um, false imprisonment with intent to torture. Um, bringing narcotics into a facility. Because I thought I was leaving, you know, I didn't think, I thought, okay, this is assault or this is assault and battery. But I didn't see that really coming.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Um, and I still, the weight of the situation hadn't hit me at all.

• 16:53Mike Rowe?

  You literally think you're going home.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:55Mike Rowe?

  After this. But they keep you in a lockup and now they tell you, you need a lawyer?

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Um, well, my dad came to see me in the morning and he said, you told on yourself? I said, well, they, yeah. He said, after years of watching, you know, the first forty-eight Law and Order cops together for years. You told on yourself, I said, they said I was never gonna see you again. And he was like, oh, my gosh. So at that point, they don't want to get me a lawyer. What are they gonna get me a lawyer for? I told on myself. So I had a very nice public defender who really wanted me to just tell so I could leave. But.

• 17:38Mike Rowe?

  Well, it doesn't work that way.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I figured, you know, I'm just not, I can't, I'm not gonna do that.

• 17:44Mike Rowe?

  So what was the sentence for?

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Um, after everything was reduced, the final charges were terrorist threats and the use of a firearm. So a gun enhancement of three years and two years for terrorist threats, which are now criminal threats because terrorist is too mean of a word to use in California.

• 18:05Mike Rowe?

  Hmm. When did that happen? I wondered.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know. I just, you know, looked myself up and was like, wow, this has been reduced.

• 18:11Mike Rowe?

  So you're no longer a terrorist? Now you're just a criminal?

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:14Mike Rowe?

  Well, congratulations. Uh, so what is that? That's five years, then?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Five years with eighty-five percent. So I did four years and nine months.

• 18:26Mike Rowe?

  But you didn't know that when you went in?

• 18:29Speaker 02

  No, I, well, the, I mean.

• 18:31Mike Rowe?

  I mean, eighty-five percent is what? For good behavior or?

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Um, well, yeah. That's like your earliest possible release.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  If you don't screw up.

• 18:42Mike Rowe?

  Okay. So now you're on the bus and they're taking you in. Handcuffs, leg irons? How does all this work? Like, what is, I mean, what, what? Basically, what I want to get at here is what, what life is like in a women's prison.

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• 20:44Speaker 02

  It's definitely not what you would expect. It's not like TV. When you catch the chain, that's when you go upstate. They shackle you all together in waist chains and leg irons. And I always had my hands cuffed with a lockbox on it. And, you know, there were people that were like, "Don't worry, you're gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine. It's not that bad. It's gonna be okay." And this is during the time in the LA County Jail where there was a lot of really crazy stuff going on. There was a humongous lawsuit for unlawful strip searches, so I had just come from that.

• 21:24Mike Rowe?

  I remember this. What year are we talking about?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  2009.

• 21:27Mike Rowe?

  Right. Yeah, they were just basically hosing people down.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. You know, stripping everybody out outside in groups of 50.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  In front of, you know, male staff. And it was excessive since I was in, I was in protective custody because my dad was still active duty. So I would have to strip out every step of the way multiple times before I finally got to court or finally upstate.

• 21:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  I didn't know any different because I'd never been arrested before. So I just thought it was always invasive and frequent. But nothing really compares to state issued strip search. You get there and they make you take your clothes off and, you know, you're in a cinder block room with 10 or nine other women that you've never met before. And you've got to lift everything up and spread everything. And if they're not satisfied, they'll bring a mirror and put a mirror under you.

• 22:31Mike Rowe?

  This is because people are bringing contraband inside their bodies?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yes. And, I mean, I understand that now. I really, I didn't understand what was going on. It was, it was so shocking and dehumanizing. I was like, wow, this is...

• 22:50Mike Rowe?

  So these are men?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  No, these are women. These are all, we're all women.

• 22:53Mike Rowe?

  So it's all female guards?

• 22:54Speaker 02

  At this point, yes.

• 22:55Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  And then they give you a little mu mu, a blue polka dotted mu mu and some flip flops and a cup and a spoon and a lock. And you're supposed to bring all that back when you parole. And then they give you your number. So you have no name. You have no, everything feminine that you can have is stripped. You don't smell good. You don't have any makeup. And it's hard to wrap my mind around this now because if you're a man who identifies as a woman, you get access to all those things. So...

• 23:34Speaker 02

  It's very frustrating because I was there. You don't feel, you're not a, you don't feel like a woman anymore. You're just a number, you're a dollar now.

• 23:41Mike Rowe?

  You're not family human, I'm sure. So privacy's gone.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 23:46Mike Rowe?

  Dignity, pretty much gone. What's the cell block look like?

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Actually, that's a great question because in CCWF, which is the second largest women's prison in America, they're eight-man cells. This is an eight-person cell that was originally designed for four people. It has two sinks, a shower, a toilet, and four bunk areas. It used to just be four beds and then when the overcrowding started, they put bunk beds.

• 24:13Mike Rowe?

  They just doubled them up, bunk beds. So you've got eight women in a room with, what I'm guessing, a couple sinks?

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Two sinks, yeah. Two sinks, the shower and the toilet, and you share about six feet of space in your bunk area. And that's hard with women, so I can't imagine what it's like to share with somebody who's coming from the killing fields of men's prison. I don't get it.

• 24:43Mike Rowe?

  Remember your first night?

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yes, I remember.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  It was a Friday and I was so excited because there was grass. I was outside.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  And we had artificial crab for dinner. And I was like, wow, this is awesome, wow. And then, you know, I got into my cell. And at this point in receiving, they're two-man cells. It looks like a real prison. And I just, the door's locked and I was like, wow, what did you do? And then I saw all these people I'd never seen. I was like, that looks like a little kid. How, where are they putting children here? What's going on here? There was just so many things I wanted to know about. Why does the water smell like poison? What's going, well, this is, there were so many things that I was, just started clocking. I told my parents, I need Erin Brockovich's address immediately. Something's wrong with the water here.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  And sure enough, it was, that was the year people started getting Legionnaires and...

• 25:50Speaker 02

  I mean, I know now, but the arsenic levels are about two thousand,

• 25:57Speaker 02

  twenty-nine times higher parts per billion than medically recommended. There's hexavalent chromium, there's manganese.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  I mean, as soon as I got there, I was like, this water doesn't smell right.

• 26:09Mike Rowe?

  So, what about the kids? You said you

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Oh, they were just young women, young eighteen-year-olds that had, that were all coming in with life. But they looked like children. I was like, I didn't know this was for children too. But they were eighteen. And there were quite a few during the time that I processed in. A lot of them are still there, but some of them have come home, it's good. But it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. It was very diverse, very,

• 26:43Speaker 02

  very interesting to be around all ladies. There were some things that weren't terrible. I mean, the whole experience wasn't awful all around. I would have stayed longer, I probably should have stayed longer, I could have used a little bit more time, but

• 26:58Mike Rowe?

  Explain.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  I just learned so much about how important the responsibility of being a woman is. It's a big deal. I didn't know how dangerous, how different it is. Because I'd been sheltered so much, I get there and I'm like, wow, you had a hard life, this is crazy. Your parents did what to you? I was just fascinated with the hurt and the,

• 27:26Speaker 02

  just how awful a lot of these people's lives were. And I was like, how could they make you go to prison for this? This is crazy. This is illegal. We should call the ACLU. And then I learned how to stop hating myself. It took, you know, a big lifer yelling at me every day, telling me stuff like, if a boy only calls you on payday, he doesn't like you.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  And it took almost five years of people really pounding that kind of stuff, and while not physically pounding it, well, sometimes, just telling me those kind of things. That's how, you know, out of touch I was. I really needed like a crash course in how to not hate myself and how

• 28:06Speaker 02

  How the world doesn't revolve around me.

• 28:09Mike Rowe?

  Well, you know what, I was gonna point it out earlier when you were just talking about how things went so sideways. You corrected yourself twice. We picked up the girl, kidnapped her. I mean, you're calling a thing what it is. And maybe for a while there, you weren't.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Right, cuz I really didn't, I wasn't, I feel like my eyes were closed. You know, I wasn't taking into consideration the impact my actions had on this lady. Like, she's probably really not okay. Her whole family was traumatized. I mean, this was a big deal. This isn't normal behavior at all. And I'm sorry it took all of that for me to get to this point, but I know I'm supposed to be here and this is what I'm supposed to do. It's just unfortunate that there were so many horrible, you know, situations that led up to this. But I know it was important for me to go to prison.

• 29:08Mike Rowe?

  Do you feel that you were, what's that scene in Shawshank? You know, are you rehabilitated?

• 29:14Speaker 02

  I don't think rehabilitation ever reaches a level of completion. I think it's like an ongoing thing. Same with re-acclimating or transitioning, it's permanent. Like, it's something that you have to maintain and upkeep, doesn't completely go away. Like, a lot of us, that we're still in touch, we check ourselves all the time. Like, we don't think like that anymore. No, you're right, we don't.

• 29:38Mike Rowe?

  What are men doing in women's prisons?

• 29:41Speaker 02

  They are living. You know, people say, how many in them? Like, forty-five, like, just forty-five?

• 29:51Mike Rowe?

  Forty-five men are in California women's prisons? And they're in there because California still has a law, a bill? What's, what do we, is it one thirty-two?

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Yes, by my good buddy Senator Scott Weiner.

• 30:05Mike Rowe?

  Scott Weiner.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  The Weiner. He's very proud of this bill. And he authored it in, I think, two thousand nineteen, worked on it for a while, and it began implementation in two thousand twenty-one. And that's around the same time that I started to develop my organization.

• 30:22Mike Rowe?

  What's it called?

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Woman to Woman. Which was very controversial.

• 30:27Mike Rowe?

  You developed this in, why is it controversial?

• 30:29Speaker 02

  You know, I was in cohorts with different organizations before I knew that the nonprofit industrial complex was a thing. I had no idea how much of a business nonprofit is. I'm working with these other orgs, these other people, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm gonna go in this direction. I'm gonna go ahead and not renew my contract and I'm gonna work on something for women. And they said, what do you mean, you're gonna work on something for women? I said, well, I'm going to develop services that are specifically designed for women. We used to have those, remember? And they said, we don't even think that's legal. And you're putting your life in grave danger. And I was like, oh, we don't, is that a threat?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Because I know about that. We don't do that.

• 31:16Mike Rowe?

  So you're talking about like NGOs coming into prisons with various agendas being funded by who knows what. What are these agendas? And how does Scott Weiner have anything to do with this?

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Well, he, I feel like prison is ground zero for like human experimentation, socioeconomic experimenting, because this is a microcosm of society. So if you're gonna implement things that you want to take place nationwide, you're gonna start in the prison, because it's an easy place to conduct these kind of things under the radar, because nobody cares. I understand, because if you're not directly impacted by the system, it's just not something you generally need to be concerned about. But this is what's happening in there. They started doing this in prison, because this is what they have planned for the free world, as you can see, it's already happening.

• 32:13Mike Rowe?

  Are you talking specifically about the transgender thing?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and there's other things. I mean, there's a lot of medical testing that goes on in there. I mean, everybody's on semaglutides in there. I mean, pretty expensive out here, but they're giving out, you know, those medications to everybody.

• 32:31Mike Rowe?

  What's a semaglutide?

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Ozempic, Wegovy, they have full access to those things. And I always have this thought in the back of my head, if they're giving it away to incarcerated people en masse, it's probably because this is not good.

• 32:48Mike Rowe?

  Are they giving it away? I mean, are you compelled to take it? Or are they just giving it to you and say, "Take this if you want"?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Well, they're definitely promoting it. "Don't you want to get on this"? Just the same as they do with the cross-sex hormones. They definitely encourage that. There's a lot of coercion that goes on there. If you're, you know, a little stud, they tell you, "You're not gay. You were just born in the wrong body. Take some testosterone." And, you know, a lot of people have issues. They're people pleasers or they just want to be affirmed. They want to be validated. And if a mental health clinician is telling you, "You're doing a great job. You're gonna eat it up. It's gonna make you feel good."

• 33:39Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training? Like travel and food and lodging. And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs,

• 34:24Mike Rowe?

  helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians. These jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago. And I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid, are looking for a straight path into a career with no cost at all,

• 35:07Mike Rowe?

  check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. So, there are 44, 45 men today in women's prisons.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  In California.

• 35:25Mike Rowe?

  In California. How many did you encounter?

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Uh, when I was there, just one. This was before. This was in 2011, I think. This individual was extradited from Texas to serve their life sentence in California for two rapes that they committed in a city not far from the prison. The mother and daughter, who were property owners and showing an apartment. And this person electrocuted them, tortured them during the assault. And when they finally got out of the observation period, when they came over, they went straight to the chairwoman of the Women's Advisory Council, now the Inmate Advisory Council,

• 36:11Speaker 02

  and asked her, "Can you help get me a job in the electric shop?" And, you know, that's pretty terrifying. That's a great way to hurt people without ever touching them.

• 36:22Mike Rowe?

  So, wait a minute. This is a guy, he rapes two women, and he's sent to prison. And he's in a male prison.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  In Texas for another case.

• 36:32Mike Rowe?

  In Texas. How's he wind up in California in a female prison?

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Because he had another pending case in California. And then this person tried to mutilate themselves to, you know, convince the committees to reassign them as female. And it worked.

• 36:52Mike Rowe?

  You're saying tried to remove a bodily organ. Successfully?

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Partial, partially. Almost doesn't count, though, you know?

• 37:04Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter what kind of parts you take off of a person, it doesn't change who they are. You could take everything off and you still are who you are. And it doesn't take male part to really be assaultive, just saying something. It sent shockwaves through the whole population. There was this somber, overwhelming feeling of just defeat. And people were crying, like, how could the governor let this happen to us? Doesn't he know? Doesn't he know we're all rape survivors? How is this, how are they letting this happen? And this person brought male prison politics with them. We don't have that in women's prison. There's no separation by security level, gang affiliation, race, nothing like

• 37:49Speaker 02

  that.

• 37:50Mike Rowe?

  That's interesting. Why? Women are just more, what, familial?

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Yes. Women will make little pseudo-families. And it takes years to cultivate them, but you have them. There's a dad, there's a mom. That's what everybody does.

• 38:06Mike Rowe?

  And are these families, do they normally unfold inside the cell block itself with the same eight people that you're basically living with and showering with and sleeping with?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  A lot of times, yeah. Or sometimes you'll be across the hallway from each other or in the same unit. It's not always healthy for, you know, friends to all live together, so it doesn't always work out. But when this stuff happened, there's aspects of the law that are completely unheard of in the carceral setting. These individuals who transfer are allowed to pick their room, pick their bunkie. If they feel uncomfortable with anybody in the room, they can tell staff and say, I want to be by myself now, or I don't want these people in here. That's giving them the ability to wield power over the whole female population.

• 38:56Mike Rowe?

  I don't understand. Why do they have this power?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They've created this narrative that they're so marginalized. It's kind of like a reward, but the way it was presented, people thought these rights were being like reinstilled or reissued. Nobody has the right to do any of that in prison, ever. So I was reading this bill like, what the heck? You can pick your, pick your own bunky.

• 39:22Mike Rowe?

  Is this 132?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:24Mike Rowe?

  Okay, so HR or HB?

• 39:27Speaker 02

  SB, Senate Bill.

• 39:29Mike Rowe?

  132, put forth by Scott Weiner, who I believe lives in San Francisco.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:37Mike Rowe?

  Last I checked. That's why I know his name. So this bill allows this guy, who's twice convicted of rape in Texas, to be transferred to California to stand trial for something else. He's found guilty of that, and at that point, he mutilates himself and decides he is a woman.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  I think that mutilation happened in Texas.

• 40:01Mike Rowe?

  In Texas, okay.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  And this is before that law was implemented. So this was on a, on the, already on the California Rules and Regulations, case by case. They dealt with these things in a case by case situation. So somehow, they thought this was a good move. They allowed it to happen. It didn't work out very well.

• 40:24Mike Rowe?

  And he's transferred to Chil- Chila?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. But he didn't last very long. The racial politics were a really big problem. Women aren't, you know, we don't have blacks watching TV over here and whites watching TV over here. And it triggered a lot of people.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  And this person was attacked eventually and sent to the lower-security prison, which is like the equivalent of a men's level zero. And they were, you know, escorted into the honor wing, where they still currently reside with their girlfriend.

• 41:04Mike Rowe?

  This guy has a girlfriend?

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:06Mike Rowe?

  Or this girl has a guy, or whatever?

• 41:07Speaker 02

  This, yes. And the women who were involved in that situation, they're never gonna let them live that down.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  The parole board's never gonna let them live that down and it, I felt really compelled to do what I do, partially because I feel like that was a trauma response. These are all survivors of sexual assault and you put, you know, this same factor that caused their original traumas in a setting like that with them, it's, it's gonna freak them out. They're going to have issues.

• 41:42Mike Rowe?

  Are you painting with a, I mean, that's a broad brush, but when you say all?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  It's everybody. The ACLU did a study in, gosh, the early 2000s and it said 92% of incarcerated women in California have been battered or beaten, but everybody I met pretty much was, you know, a survivor. I didn't even realize it until, you know, I came home, I was like, wow, everybody is really messed up. Like it, it's very unfortunate. There's, this is not healthy. This isn't allowing for any of these people to access the one thing they're supposed to be able to access, which is rehabilitation. Not for the men either.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  This isn't normal for them. This isn't allowing them to rehabilitate or, you know, recover from their original traumas. This is just letting them sit in there and get worse.

• 42:38Mike Rowe?

  So did SB 132 officially pass?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Oh, with flying colors.

• 42:43Mike Rowe?

  Then it's still the law of California.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:46Mike Rowe?

  What else does it allow these 44 or 45 men and women's prisons to do?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Well, they're pretty much above the law. You can't, it's really hard to discipline them for any kind of violations. Staff feel like they have their hands tied. They're afraid to tell them anything because they know they're all, you know, connected to high-power law firms. They're afraid of all the lawsuits.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  It's created a really humongous like power imbalance. They're able to pick their jobs. They get free douche.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  It's

• 43:26Mike Rowe?

  Free douche?

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, right.

• 43:29Mike Rowe?

  So you mean there's a charge for

• 43:32Speaker 02

  For women, yeah, you gotta buy it on canteen. You know, just because you're born with one doesn't mean that you get to access things that are for your woman parts. You gotta buy that. They also have access to different kind of healthcare, which I think is unreasonable. I mean, even being formally incarcerated, I feel like life-saving procedures, of course, but things that are elective, I don't think that's appropriate. Things like

• 43:58Mike Rowe?

  Facelift.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Right. Nobody ever died from having a penis or vagina. Those are not deadly circumstances. But this is what's available now. Things, I mean, full-body laser hair removal, facelifts, breast implants, Adam's apple reduction. What else? Giving them Rogaine for male pattern baldness.

• 44:23Mike Rowe?

  These things, are they available to the female population? But you have to pay for it?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 44:31Mike Rowe?

  They're not available?

• 44:32Speaker 02

  No, I mean, there's women who've been there for decades who need to have their breast implants removed and replaced, and their families are like, we'll pay. You know, she's gonna really ruin her self-esteem. We'll pay for you to, you know, do this. No, absolutely not. No. It's, I don't know how, how much more unfair and degrading this can get. Yeah, I guess I do. When they install the condom dispensers, that really did a number. Because there's so many other moving parts to this. There's a big wave of staff sexual misconduct that's being exposed. And then you have the men moving in. So to install condom dispensers

• 45:10Mike Rowe?

  In a women's prison?

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Yes. On Super Bowl Sunday, nobody comes to work on that day. Nobody. But they had staff working overtime to install condom dispensers with rainbow condoms and flavored dental dams. Now, there's been women in that prison since it was built, and they never provided flavored dental dams. So I'm sure that was just to offset the ridiculousness of

• 45:38Speaker 02

  condom dispensers, but that's been on the books in California since 2015. When Rob Bonta, our Attorney General, was just a little assemblyman. He wrote a bill, I think 999 or something, that said all state prisons must provide condoms by 2019. And there was only one Republican official who said, why would you put them in the women's prison? But Bonta was, you know, a hardliner on this and said every single prison must have these. But they didn't put them in either of the women's prisons until the transfers started.

• 46:14Mike Rowe?

  That's insane.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:17Mike Rowe?

  I mean, that's just... All right. So is this also in this SB 132?

• 46:23Speaker 02

  No. These are just all different horrible bills that have come together. I mean, that wasn't horrible. I'm sure they're trying to mitigate the transmission of HIV in men's prisons, which is going to end up being a problem in women's prison now, too.

• 46:37Mike Rowe?

  What do people need to know about the daily reality of these men being in women's prisons?

• 46:45Speaker 02

  All these women were sentenced to prison. They were sentenced to, you know, pay their debt back to society, and this, none of this was a part of the deal. This is the most oppressive. They can't talk about it. They can't complain about it. If they do, they're disciplined. They're transphobic, and they have to move. You know, you can't refuse to room with one of these people. There's nobody to talk to. If you want to go see a mental health clinician because you're having a really hard time, they're going to tell you something like, hey, you're being transphobic, and I have to end our session because I don't feel safe anymore. Two women told me that. That's ridiculous.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And they were complaining or trying to confide in somebody about a six-foot-four Mexican mafia dropout who's got a really long body count because they were feeling afraid, but they couldn't express that. They can't tell the organizations that go in to help them. Because they get shut down. No, we're not talking about that. We're not talking about that because they all supported this.

• 47:52Mike Rowe?

  This is the NGOs you were talking about.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  They all fully supported this. And I was mad for years, but I'm not mad anymore. Just get out of my way, you know? I'm not mad. So you did that. It helped you get funded. Okay. California's got so much money on the table. Get your money. But just let me fix this, please.

• 48:12Mike Rowe?

  What, I mean, is this, it's not a secret, is it? Like, who are these NGOs? Where is this money coming from?

• 48:21Mike Rowe?

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• 49:02Mike Rowe?

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• 49:46Mike Rowe?

  And that's guaranteed. Support your local ranchers by insisting on American meat delivered at GoodRanchers.com/row.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  I mean Soros has a lot of, it all comes from a common purse, you know, like the transgender Law Center and BLM, like they all have, you know, very similar donors, if not the same. They're all radicalizing these people. And then on top of that, there's now, you know, higher education that's available too. And, you know, that's a really hotspot for indoctrination. So they're getting like hit from every direction. I mean, people, women that are really strong

• 50:41Speaker 02

  women of faith call crying and they're like, "These teachers, these professors are trying to make me think that a cult is only called a cult because it's outside of Judeo-Christian normatives." And I'm like, "Dang, this is really, you have to worry about this too?" But there's physical things that happen that it's a nightmare. And it's the things that I knew would happen. Abusive relationships. People say, "Well, why aren't you worried about, you know, same-sex abusive relationships?" Well, because you can't bring a vagina to a penis fight, you're gonna lose every single time. There was a situation a couple of years

• 51:23Speaker 02

  ago where the staff had to bring out, the investigative services unit had to bring out shovels and cadaver dogs because they were looking for fetal remains. And even though the search was unsubstantiated, why would they even have to do that? And these women are just, you know, looking out their windows like, "What? The dogs are here. What's going on? What are they looking for?"

• 51:47Mike Rowe?

  Obviously, what you're saying is somebody was raped, they became pregnant, they aborted the pregnancy, and then they buried the fetus. Or they, or they delivered a baby.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Or she was in love.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  And then beaten until she lost it. But there's other, this is in an isolated situation. There's coerced abortions. There's babies that are being born. There's, I think, next month, the trial starts for an individual who was transferred back to men's prison last year because the Madera County DA picked up two rape allegations. And this is the same person that I had been warning the prison about for months and months and months and months. But that person is not okay either. That person had a really terrible childhood and never really had a chance.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  And the state facilitated these situations. Our elected officials need to be held accountable for this stuff.

• 52:52Mike Rowe?

  How do we do that?

• 52:54Speaker 02

  I don't know, because you can't assume as individuals.

• 52:57Mike Rowe?

  Have you ever met Scott Weiner?

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Yes, we actually had a good run in. The first time I met him, I was hysterical. I don't know what happened. The Holy Spirit had me crying or something. But the Freedom Angels, these two moms that are freaking awesome, chased him down at the Capitol and they were pulling me and running down the hallway. They said, Senator Weiner, we gotta introduce you to somebody. This is Amy Chakow. And he was like, oh.

• 53:20Mike Rowe?

  He knew you.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  And I said, it's so nice to finally meet you, sir.

• 53:26Mike Rowe?

  So I don't get it. You were...

• 53:27Speaker 02

  I don't know if I was exhausted or delus... I was out of my mind because I was telling myself, why are you being so weak? This is your nemesis, you know? And I said, Senator, I just want to give you these letters from some women inside. And he was like, okay. And I said, here's my card. He said, I already have it on my desk. Don't waste it. I was like, okay, thank you. And then recently, he's on the Public Safety Committee. And I had a bill with Senator Shannon Grove that would have prohibited sex offenders from being able to transfer under this bill. And he just, he really didn't like it.

• 54:08Mike Rowe?

  What is his agenda? What is he hoping to accomplish with a bill like this?

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Well, there's... I think, you know, the prioritization of predators, predator prioritization is a big one. Making, like, normalizing sex offenses, it seems like, because there's been other bills that have passed that are definitely beneficial to sex offenders. And I think probably the abolition of the age of consent is on the table, because a lot of these bills are around parental, you know, control, your ability to be a participant in your own child's life, and to make the state stronger parent in child's lives than their own parents.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  But with this whole SB 132 stuff, it just seems like there's a disconnect, like, with the vulnerability of women, and he's not getting it. And a part of me thinks maybe he's been bamboozled. I'd like to give him that out, you know, because the trans women in men's prison are like, where did he get his statistics and his information from, because it's not coming from us? We don't want to go over there. We don't want to go over there because we know it sucks. We know that the staff are disrespectful far more than they are over here. They know that the programming is better at men's prisons, there's more opportunities. They don't want to go over there, they have boyfriends. The heck do they want to go to the women's side for?

• 55:36Speaker 02

  But there's just this, this narrative that there's our delicate flowers that are being mishandled and tortured by everybody and misgendered at every waking minute, and it's just destroying them. But the people I've spoken to in men's prison are not saying that. They're like, these are people with, you know, nefarious intentions. These are people that can't be over here anymore because they have nowhere else to hide. So they're effectively turning women's prison into, like, men's protective custody overflow.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  And I mean, there's even a situation where somebody saw another individual kill somebody on the cell block and he testified against him in court and staff recklessly housed him with the murderer and he was in grave danger. So he just said, "I'm a woman" and started the paperwork to transfer.

• 56:32Mike Rowe?

  And the transfer went through?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:35Mike Rowe?

  Is it really that simple? All they have to do is just say, "No, this is, I've decided it."

• 56:39Speaker 02

  It was for the, you know, the first busload, it seemed like. But they have, I think the Department of Corrections has done a real bang-up job on slowing this down as much as they can because the law is, it's the law now. The law is the law and there's 211 pending, um, transfer requests that are just waiting for the committee to evaluate them.

• 57:03Mike Rowe?

  Hmm.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  They don't have like a really good guideline because the people that have transferred, 33.8% are registered sex offenders. There's somebody there who killed another man in men's prison. I would think that would make you, you know, probably not a good move, but it went through. I mean, you would think you would lose all your privileges if you kill somebody else in prison. Like you don't, you don't get to, you know, now pick your prison and your roommate and your bunkie, but...

• 57:37Mike Rowe?

  And maybe get that Adam's apple reduced.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Yes, definitely. I mean, the full-body laser hair removal, I was like, "Get out of here. I know a lot of bearded ladies that would really love to have that." I mean, that would be awesome, but no.

• 57:50Mike Rowe?

  So what were you doing in Texas? Why were you in the Capitol?

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Oh, because Senator Troxler was putting a bill up to codify the definitions of man and woman, male and female, boy and girl to the Constitution in Texas. And, you know, Peyton and I were there to support her. And their sessions are really crazy, though. They only do legislation every two years. They go to like way into the wee midnight hours. So... I was trying to hang around to testify, but I was like, I don't have any more clothes. I gotta go. So I was sure to submit all my written testimony to all the committee members and it passed. I mean, it's Texas. It passed and it's awesome. They're the 17th state now that's adopted this language that is, you know, based off

• 58:38Speaker 02

  of IWF's model for biological definitions. They have to be codified. There's 133 laws in Texas that use female-based language. So now you can't manipulate it.

• 58:52Mike Rowe?

  How did you get wrapped up with the Independent Women's Forum?

• 58:56Speaker 02

  I was in Texas. A couple of years ago, I was in Austin for a Let Women Speak event and they contacted me after and I was totally thrown off. I was like, is this really happening? They're talking to me? And they were really talking to me.

• 59:16Mike Rowe?

  Why did, was it because women's women? Like what got on their radar?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  I think, what did? Just, I was talking as much as I could, I still do, you know, doing as many interviews as possible. And I think they're, one of the chapter leads, the chapter lead in Texas, I think, highlighted me. And then there's another one in Arizona that I know. And I think that helped a lot. And we hadn't even, I hadn't even met the one in Arizona in person until, you know, last year. I was like, is this our first time meeting? I feel like we've always been friends. It's crazy how connected I get with these ladies and it's all, you know, on Twitter or over the phone or on Zoom. But they pulled me in and I had never, I mean, it totally restored my hope in women

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  in general. I've never seen, they operate amazing. They get a lot of stuff done. And I was like, wow, thank you. And everybody's so sweet and polite and encouraging. And I was like, I get to, I get to be a part of this? And they were like, yes, yes. And I was so humbled, like, they care because it's hard. It's a hard topic. I don't expect people to.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  To like feel sorry or wanna help a bunch of killers.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  But they, they did. And it just was crazy. It was the most refreshing thing ever. Because doing this by myself with just my two partners that have to work full time because, you know, gotta survive. It's been a pretty uphill battle for us. We knew it was gonna be a heavy when we picked it up, but.

• 1:01:10Mike Rowe?

  It hasn't gotten much later.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  No. And then, you know, now because we're in contact with women in federal prisons. And if you think state prison's bad, you know, who do you call for help when you're in the feds? The feds? They're not gonna help you.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  It's really bad over there.

• 1:01:29Mike Rowe?

  How much worse is it? And, and how is it worse?

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Well, what was it? Last year? This is how I started to understand about the feds. I met my good friend Grandma Debbie. I was with Christian Post and we were doing a panel in Texas. And she came out, she was referred to me from like First Liberty, I think. And there was a woman who was her good friend who was horribly, horribly, horribly assaulted by a trans person who actually turned out to be a, a woman popped up on testosterone. But this lady is completely disfigured and not okay. And she's never gonna be physically okay. And this lady's telling me this story and I'm like, oh no, this is literally the worst.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  I thought I had heard everything. This is the worst thing I'd ever heard. And the level of neglect and deliberate indifference that she experienced. The prison didn't wanna be responsible for letting this happen. So they just let her lay there until scar tissue developed that was so big she couldn't even walk.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  And she still, you know, they denied the reconstruction, the reconstructive surgery a couple times before they finally gave the hospital the green light.

• 1:02:54Mike Rowe?

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• 1:03:36Mike Rowe?

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• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  So I started getting into the federal issues. And then there was a judiciary hearing that was coming up for Biden-nominated magistrates to get permanent seats in really prominent federal courts. And there was one specific one, Sarah Netburn, who was going to get the Southern New York District Court, which is one of the most influential courts in the system. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. So she said that this person, JJS, who's a sex offender, like a prolific sex offender, it was appropriate for that person to be moved to Carswell State Federal Prison,

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  which is a women's medical prison.

• 1:05:03Mike Rowe?

  A medical prison? What's that mean?

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  There's people with high medical needs that are there. So they're transferring a lot of them down there now. And there's a high volume of sex offenders, so, you know.

• 1:05:15Mike Rowe?

  So if you're sick...

• 1:05:18Mike Rowe?

  You had there, I didn't realize that there were separate prisons.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  With that have increased medical available.

• 1:05:26Mike Rowe?

  Facilities.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  Yes, but this person, she said that the women's, in her report, she said that the women's fears are overblown. And this was against the recommendation from the B O P, from the Bureau of Prisons. They were saying, no, no, no, this is inappropriate. Let this person complete the program for sex offenders here. And then we can, you know, put this person then in the transgender unit, then we can take it from there. And this judge, this radical judge was like, no way, transfer this person now. And I talked to women in that prison. So as soon as that person got there, they pulled their pecker out and were saying, you know, give me two weeks, ladies, and it'll be, you know, completely operational.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  And, um, you know, that's when I got in touch with the Judiciary Committee and Ted Cruz's office. We were able to, you know, get them all the information they needed to get this judge knocked. And her nomination is done. It's off the table. And that was the situation where we actually were able to convince, you know, Senator John Ossoff to vote no on her as well. He's the only person who crossed party lines to, to deny her that seat. And that was huge. That was a really big deal. I didn't even know it was a big deal till after. But we worked so hard to make sure they had access to information and letters from women. And, you know, the cries for help, they're going completely unanswered because, you know, they're it.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  But they're always it. They're always it. There has to be a loser in every political game. And I don't think it should be them anymore.

• 1:07:02Mike Rowe?

  Is this all through women to women, your organization? I'm still not clear on when you founded that exactly.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Two thousand, two thousand twenty-one, uh, early two thousand twenty-one, the same time that S B one thirty-two was implemented. So at first, we just wanted to be like a resource hub, um, peer support, reentry, transition specialists, but.

• 1:07:24Mike Rowe?

  Reentry into polite society.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  Yes, because, you know, there's a lot of little things that you don't think are a problem until you get out. Like, I came home and, um.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  You know, I heard the dogs running down the hall in the middle of the night and I could hear their collars banging around and I thought it was the cops and I jump up and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, they're coming." But nobody's coming, it's the dogs. I was at a gas station with my parents and a bell went off for the car wash and I got on the ground. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I only did five years, what's gonna happen to people who've done 25?" I went to a restaurant with my mom and the tables were stainless steel and I had a panic attack. I was like, "I can't breathe." And she's laughing, saying, "What's wrong with you?" And I said, "I don't know." But I flashed, I just, it felt like I was in the chow hall. I went to Starbucks and I was totally overwhelmed.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  I was like, "I just want a coffee." And then I thought, "What is somebody who's never even used a cellphone gonna do when they look at that menu?"

• 1:08:27Mike Rowe?

  Because you don't have a lot of choices to make when you're inside.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:31Mike Rowe?

  That stuff's decided for you. But what is the stated purpose of women to women?

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we just want to create a soft landing and coach our friends through the rough spots. There's so many things that can cause you to relapse or give up. And we can see it heading, you know, ahead of time. We can see it when it's gonna happen, we can see it developing, and we just want to be there so that you can have somebody to talk to and not feel so alienated, not feel like you're a total weirdo. And then, and then, you know, let me tell you about this statement of faith, this is a funny story.

• 1:09:08Mike Rowe?

  Women to women believe that the only way to complete rehabilitation from a lifestyle that led to incarceration is through a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So this is a ministry. May you bury the lead.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  We needed a checking account. And I didn't get it, like, I'm still, I'm so... No banks would call me back and I was like, everybody must be so busy. And I went into a bank and they were like, we said we'd call you. So I prayed and I was like, gosh, isn't there a Jesus bank or something? So I, you know, looked up Christian banks and I got on the phone and they were like, well, what's your, what's your denomination? I said, I don't know. They said, what's your statement of faith? I said, I don't know. What do you, what do you want me to do? And they said, read ours and then send us one. And I was like, this is a lot of stuff. Must be a good bank. So I prayed, wrote something, I sent it to my partners. I said, how's this?

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  They said, don't change anything, send it. I said, wow, no edits? They said, no, send it. I sent it and they said, well, then what's, what do you believe? I said, well, I just gave you my statement of faith. They said, what do you believe, Amy? I said, okay. So they said, give me a half an hour. I wrote that and that's when I was like, this is what's wrong. We forgot to make the Lord the cornerstone. We started building and we forgot to lay the foundation.

• 1:10:33Mike Rowe?

  So when did you, did you figure this out when you were in jail?

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I was very abusive. Like I used Jesus to get through my time. And then when I got out, I was like, thanks, see ya. Um, see you next emergency. And then.

• 1:10:51Mike Rowe?

  When'd you get out?

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Two thousand thirteen.

• 1:10:53Mike Rowe?

  You got out in thirteen, you formed women to women. Twenty one. So from nineteen, so from two thousand thirteen to two thousand twenty one, eight years.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  I was.

• 1:11:04Mike Rowe?

  What are you doing?

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  Being just selfish, enjoying life. Um.

• 1:11:09Mike Rowe?

  You working?

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yes, I, I worked in retail for a while and then, uh, what the heck did I do? Then I worked as an administrator at a Japanese culinary school.

• 1:11:20Mike Rowe?

  Was it hard to get a job?

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, it was. And the Department of Rehabilitation told me just to get on full disability because I was unemployable. And I was like, that doesn't sound like a good idea.

• 1:11:34Mike Rowe?

  Why were you unemployable?

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  My handwriting was too aggressive. My handshake was too aggressive. I was like, "Two pumps? What are you talking about?" They said, "Go get a forklift license." I said, "Okay, that sounds like a great idea."

• 1:11:49Mike Rowe?

  Those are fun to drive.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  And then I said, "I'll go work at the refinery. That's what I'm gonna do." And then the refinery HR lady was like, "I cannot believe that I can't hire you, but I just had to hire a rapist. You're never gonna get in the oil field with that charge, ever." And I was like, "Oh, well, there goes my hopes and dreams of being fire watch." Yeah. So, you know, I worked at this sushi school and it was wonderful. And then COVID came and I got some quiet time to really think about what's going on. And people kept coming home and there wasn't access to resources. There's a lot of gatekeeping. There's resources.

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  You just have to know people. And if you don't beg for it, or if you don't know the right people, if you're not, you know, the poster child for, you know, Marxist indoctrination, you're probably not gonna, you know, get a lot of love. So I thought, "Let's open this up to people." And that's when this emergency happened. And I thought this was an emergen-- it's still an emergency to me. So I had to shift focus to this because it is a crisis. It's a female human rights crisis. I had no idea it was gonna be so political or polarized. And people warned me, like, "You have no idea what you're getting into. This is way bigger than you think. You can't do this. You have to learn

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  how to talk. You can't talk like this." And I was like, "Eh, I don't think so. I know how to talk." They were like, "You have to learn the language." I said, "I know the language and I'm comfortable with using this language. No men and women's presence." And I thought, "Who's gonna be against this? Who is going to possibly wanna fight this?" And surprise, surprise.

• 1:13:40Mike Rowe?

  It does seem like a winning position. But what is the argument? What's the basic argument in favor? Of putting men in women's prisons.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Because trans women are women and these are marginalized people that are at a 14% higher risk of being sexually assaulted and they're bullied by staff.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  And it's a, you know, a rapist killing field in men's prison, but it's not. It's not. It's not the movies. This is not the eighties. It's not like that.

• 1:14:18Mike Rowe?

  What's it like?

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  I mean, it's still the killing field in California. We're at 81 murders this year.

• 1:14:26Mike Rowe?

  In state prisons?

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. In our state prisons. And you know, the secretary of CDCR is a governor-appointed person and the governor hasn't said anything about these 81 murders, which is pretty high. I think it's the most ever in a six-month period in CDCR history, if I'm correct.

• 1:14:43Mike Rowe?

  Well, per capita, I mean, 81 murders in the entire prison population.

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  Ninety-six thousand. That's a lot of people.

• 1:14:52Mike Rowe?

  Eighty-one out of ninety-six thousand, yeah. If that were to translate to the whole population of California, well, that'd be bad.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  But, you know, they're doing things like making San Quentin a rehabilitation center. Because we don't have like 13 trillion bazillion dollars in debt, so let's give the most dilapidated old prison that is on a zillion-dollar realty, real estate, just sell it. Sell it. Sell it. That could create a lot of resources.

• 1:15:23Mike Rowe?

  It's pretty good beachfront, ocean-view property.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Right. But they're going to build learning centers and a death row was there. So since that, there's a moratorium on the death penalty. They have asked the people on death row to integrate with general population. They took, I think, 34 and put them in a level-two men's prison. There's no electric fence, so that's against the law. If you are condemned, you have to be in a facility with an electric fence. But somehow they worked around that. But the men, you know, they do have different opportunities. Education.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  There's a lot of outside resources that come in and offer certifications and stuff. The women are starting to catch up, but it's still very unbalanced.

• 1:16:10Mike Rowe?

  So what was the inciting incident then, Amy? Like, what happened to you in 2021? I know we're locked down. You seem to have gone from, like, you didn't leave prison, you know, ready to hit the ground running on a mission. I didn't realize that. It took you eight years before you decided this was going to be the cause. What caused it?

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  In January, I got hundreds of letters and calls from ladies I don't even know. Um, old ladies, little old ladies, um, big ladies, little ladies, small ladies, tall ladies, all of them. People were like crying and they're like, I'm scared. What do I do? And I just thought, this is really weird. You guys are losing it. Let me review this law. And when I read it, I was like, oh, I'm gonna barf. I can't believe this. This is worse than they even know. Because it's not like they have access. They, they're not gonna go look up the final, um, verbiage and, and, but I started sending all that in.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  I was like, okay, we're gonna arm these women with education. Let's make sure they know.

• 1:17:21Mike Rowe?

  And these, these letters are coming from ladies who are incarcerated?

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:17:24Mike Rowe?

  Because the law came out?

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  Well, they began the implementation because they were holding it off with the lockdowns. But the first busload came and they were like, those are men. Some of them with boobs, but those are men. They were told these are gonna be delicate flowers, people that are at risk, people that need a safe place to do their time. And these women were like, oh, okay. And that's not what happened. That is not what happened at all. And there was no education provided. There was no preparation. It just, well, because I think the department didn't think this was gonna pass. You know, every officer I've spoken to, they're like, well, nobody thought that was really gonna happen.

• 1:18:07Mike Rowe?

  But somehow it did.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Yes. Every single Democrat in the state of California voted yes. From the assembly all the way to the governor's office, voted yes. All nine Republicans voted no. But what are you gonna do in a super majority? The entire Women's Caucus fully supported this.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  And, you know, I sent that information in too, because I just think that they should get full disclosure and know who's doing this, who's supporting this, who's frameworking things like this. Because they should have access to that information. They should know. They should know that when those people come in and smile and take pictures with them to send to their, put in their, you know, annual reports, they should know that's who is skinning and grinning and making money off of a check written in your blood on your back, you know?

• 1:19:05Mike Rowe?

  So to sum up, Women to Women, that does have a pretty clear mission. Aside from the core belief, you just want to get men out of women's prisons.

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I don't want anything bad to happen to them either. Everybody should have a place where they can do their time, rehabilitate, and get better and be the best version that they can possibly be, especially when you're spending $132,000 a year on these people. They should be coming out ready to, you know, participate in society and live, but this is like the recipe for a total disaster.

• 1:19:46Mike Rowe?

  That's what it costs to incarcerate someone in California? $132,000 a year?

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  Yes, that's for somebody with minimal medical needs. That's for a baseline inmate, prisoner person. But, you know...

• 1:19:59Mike Rowe?

  But that's amazing. Look, I mean, the more you know, right? The more you know.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Yes, and you can't care about stuff you don't know about.

• 1:20:07Mike Rowe?

  What can people do if they want to join the cause, if they want to be involved?

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Please talk to your elected officials, talk to your assembly person. It's easy, they're very accessible. It doesn't seem like it, but some intern will take your call, say that this matters to you.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Because they can't care about what they don't know about either. And they have to know, call Senator Weiner and tell him this isn't normal. That there's got to be a way to ensure all of these people have respect, agency, and dignity. Those aren't things that you can just give to a little tiny part of the population. What happens when you give, you know, supreme rights to a small sector of society? Bad stuff.

• 1:20:52Mike Rowe?

  What is the actual name of the bill? What did you say, after the number?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  The Transgender Respect, Agency, and Dignity Act. And I have used those three words so much to try and drive it home that these are basic human rights. They can't, you can't just give them to a little bit of people. And then you have the rest of the ladies like, oh, okay. They've never had respect, agency, or dignity, ever, ever, before prison, in prison, after prison. So those are free. California can definitely afford to ensure that everybody has access to that. But there, there's just so much resistance. And I've done my best to really soften the delivery of the message. And my heart has softened. And I do care about these people.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  And I was mad, I was really mad in 2021, but I'm like, fully understanding now that I have to care about all of them to really advocate correctly. So I would like for them to be able to safely do their time over there.

• 1:21:59Mike Rowe?

  As Harry Bosch would put it, everybody matters or nobody matters?

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it took a long time to get here, but it's, I'm glad I finally made it.

• 1:22:08Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'm glad you came by. It's fascinating what you're doing. The IWF is doing great work. I assume, women to women dot org?

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Uh, yes, yes.

• 1:22:20Mike Rowe?

  For more info?

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:22:22Mike Rowe?

  And that's the Roman numeral two, not the, not the Arabic.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Technically is I I.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:28Mike Rowe?

  I I.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Woman, I I, woman, dot org.

• 1:22:34Mike Rowe?

  Because the number two was taken.

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  Number two was taken.

• 1:22:36Mike Rowe?

  This is so much simpler, Amy.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  I was like, yeah, this looks easy. This is definitely not going to confuse people at all.

• 1:22:45Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, nonprofits are exciting, aren't they?

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  Hmm, it's quite an industry.

• 1:22:51Mike Rowe?

  Thanks again for coming and good luck.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  Thank you very much.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

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• 1:23:02Speaker 01

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• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  won't you leave five stars? Five lousy little stars.

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

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