461: Danny Combs—TACT, The Future of Workforce

Mike sits down with Danny Combs, founder of TACT https://www.buildwithtact.org/ (Teaching the Autism Community Trades), a program that teaches people with autism skilled trades ranging from welding to woodworking to IT. With equal parts heart and hard data, Danny walks Mike through how TACT is helping fill critical labor shortages while giving thousands of gifted, detail-driven students a path to meaningful, good-paying work. It's a conversation about talent, potential, and the untapped workforce hiding in plain sight. Danny's book can be found here. https://www.amazon.com/Supporting-Neurodivergent-Autistic-Transition-Adulthood/dp/1032394919/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1NGF4ZXGEYYEE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.2sQh5KQh92EuOfPPS7h52pjBRysUnWsDmfn4WwStpU_J3kYF82UUDzUSLswbC0NfAEd0jTz5Jg6ooa3IB7Yi5Ie069IzwLb-e8IAgrlWbhkj4FAdYxFK0z1W4r24Aoaky1NjS8V9_8FtQ4QDccC-b8yAbOwvEpcahcx4isLEJZH8rHQGKG5cmPj_FhMGQnGIfW_qMyPZw4AqXVfWOjs5DewCQrVmislmi_8bpr4ScL0.8MIAY1CtKOyQMmUjw4ng4faI5PXoF2b8_U8amdzk7V0&dib_tag=se&keywords=danny+combs&qid=1764618465&sprefix=danny+combs%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-1 Learn more about Stand Together at StandTogether.org https://standtogether.org/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hey guys, it's me Mike Rowe. This is The Way I Heard It. My guest today is my old friend Danny Combs, who is currently living in Colorado and changing the world from the bottom up.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  That is true. He is doing it himself. He's not waiting for the government to write him a big check or whatever. He's got an organization that he created, and he is getting stuff did.

• 0:27Mike Rowe?

  The organization is called TACT, T-A-C-T. It stands for Teaching the Autistic Community Trades. In fact, the title of this episode is TACT: The Future of Workforce. Because I think it very well might be, not to bog you down with too much exposition, but I'm friends with an organization called Stand Together. We've been working together for years. They support MicroWorks, full disclosure.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 0:53Mike Rowe?

  And every now and then, they will call me and say, "Hey, we've got another bottom-up solution that we think you're gonna love."

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:02Mike Rowe?

  That's what they look for. People like Danny Combs. Well, in this case, I called Stand because I met Danny on an episode of Returning the Favor about five years ago, I guess. It was the first episode we did after the lockdowns, so it was a remote episode of this show. And the reason I was so interested in doing this is because Danny has built a trade school of sorts, inspired by his son Dylan, who was diagnosed with autism when he was two. And what Danny learned from working with his son was that the autistic community, not to paint with too broad a brush,

• 1:45Mike Rowe?

  but has a powerful, undeniable facility for trade work.

• 1:54Mike Rowe?

  And I'm talking about welding, I'm talking about electric, I'm talking about all the traditional trades. So when I first met him, he had this modest little shop and he was teaching autistic people trades and getting them hired.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and getting them in a position where they continue to be hired for a long period of time. Like, you hire an autistic person, you've got an employee for a very long time.

• 2:20Mike Rowe?

  You do. And it's so interesting because that community as a cohort is 90% unemployed.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:28Mike Rowe?

  And what Danny has done over the last five years or so is radically expand TACT into a huge structure in Denver. He's taken a job in the state legislature representing the disabled.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:45Mike Rowe?

  And lots of people have come through TACT and lots of people are now working in their chosen field who have been diagnosed with some level of autism or ADHD, or we'll talk about all the different acronyms now that comprise the ever-growing spectrum. But the point is, graduates from TACT have an 84% stick rate.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:10Mike Rowe?

  In a world of 90% unemployment.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:14Mike Rowe?

  At a time when the skills gap is desperately wide and it has to be closed. Which is why I'm wondering if this might be the future of workforce. It's a huge community, it's a bottom-up solution. My buddies at Stand Together have doubled down, they're now supporting Danny. And when I told him I wanted to talk to him, they said, "Oh, we'll bring him to you." Everybody loves him. You will too, because he's making a difference. Danny Combs, right after this.

• 3:52Mike Rowe?

  I'd like to talk about initiative, if I could, for just a moment. Here at MicroWorks, we value it a great deal. In fact, it's the most important quality we look for in our work ethic scholarship applicants. But everybody wants it. I'm talking about the quality in a lift driver that inspires him or her to carry your bags to the door without even asking, or the grocery clerk who shows you where an item is on the shelves, or a doctor who personally calls you to explain your test results. If you're hiring, you want to encourage initiative because it's invaluable. And ZipRecruiter has a way to allow a candidate to tell you, in their own words, why they're interested in your job. Not just why they're qualified, but why they're interested.

• 4:37Mike Rowe?

  This is a way that allows the best candidates to distinguish themselves from the competition and a great way for you to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were. Right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/row. ZipRecruiter is the number one hiring site, in large part because of this new initiative that shows you the most interested, qualified candidates first. So you meet the right people faster. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within one day. Try it for free. ZipRecruiter.com/row. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  (Singing) Build your team, build it sooner. Meet your match at ZipRecruiter. Try it free.

• 5:30Mike Rowe?

  Daniel, where to begin? You come bearing gifts. Yes, sir. I like the shirt. It looks good on you. I got a tacked hat. I got a tacked shirt. Very Paul Bunyan-ish. Very Coloradoan, I suppose. You have to have flannel, yeah. Yeah, you have to. And... Did my eyes deceive me, or have you written a book?

• 5:49Speaker 03

  I did write a book. I did, I did.

• 5:51Mike Rowe?

  "Supporting Neurodivergent and Autistic People for Their Transition into Adulthood: Blueprints for Education, Training, and Employment," by Danny Combs. I can't believe you didn't invite me to write the foreword.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  I probably should have, and I went with a short title, too, as you can tell.

• 6:05Mike Rowe?

  Oh, my gosh. You know what? Well, a topic like this, you know, it's funny, I just talked at length to Gavin DeBecker, who our listeners will have no doubt gotten an earful from. And his book, at first, I was going to congratulate him for a super short title. Bring it up, Chuck, if you have it. The book's called Forbidden Facts. But then the subtitle comes in, and in the subtitle, you learn what the book is actually about. And I learned this from my own publisher years ago. They're like, titles, you know, people agonize over them. But really, it's the subtitle that, where you'll find the truth. What is it? You got it, Chuck?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  It's coming.

• 6:48Mike Rowe?

  So is Christmas.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I hear that.

• 6:50Mike Rowe?

  Tick tock.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  You know, we were just talking about earlier today how you hadn't been, you know, threatening to fire me recently.

• 6:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, about that.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  And, uh, yeah, it's good to know that you're on top of it now.

• 7:02Mike Rowe?

  Is talking actually slowing you down as you look for this thing? Oh, there it is. "Government Deceit and Suppression About Brain Damage From Childhood Vaccines." And then he goes even further and just simply starts putting a passage from the book on the cover. He's like, "I'm not even waiting for people to turn it over to see what's on the other side, or crack it open to see what's inside. I've written a book and I've put in it, I've put the whole thing on the cover, essentially." It's awesome. Is this your first book?

• 7:36Speaker 03

  It's my first book, yes. It's kind of exciting.

• 7:39Mike Rowe?

  Work of a lifetime?

• 7:40Speaker 03

  It's based on a lot of experience, yeah, very much so. So hopefully it helps others do what we're doing. We need more people doing it.

• 7:47Mike Rowe?

  You, um, I'm sure I will explain this in the preamble after you leave, but I've known of you for a long time. I met you virtually during the lockdowns in Returning the Favors' first attempt to return a favor long distance.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 8:02Mike Rowe?

  Met you in person earlier this year. And I've invited you out here now, A, because I like you, and B, because I just, I feel as though this whole topic has just exploded, you know? It just keeps getting bigger and more relevant to more people.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:21Mike Rowe?

  And I figured, you know, I could talk to you as the husband and the father of an autistic kid, and we can get into all that stuff. But first and foremost, thanks for making the trip. I know you're busy, what with your fancy new business card.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  Well, thank you. You know, I was, I was so excited when you called, so you've always been really great, Mike, so thank you very much, I appreciate it.

• 8:41Mike Rowe?

  Ask around, people do like me.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Same.

• 8:44Mike Rowe?

  What are you doing now in the state Capitol?

• 8:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I am the Director of the Colorado Disability Opportunity Office, and the idea is Colorado actually became the first state to have a policy advisor on disability. It's wild to think in 2025, states aren't really doing that. You have a policy advisor in education, transportation, the environment, housing, not on disability.

• 9:06Mike Rowe?

  How is that possible?

• 9:08Speaker 03

  No one does it. When you think it's a demographic that all of us might join at some point in our lives, as we get older, as our hearing goes, as our vision goes, as our body starts to break, as we start looking at what the infrastructure looks for our society as people age, no one's thinking about that far in the head. And so Colorado is, and so I was telling Chuck, I was driving Becky to the airport, we're taking our daughter, she was doing a hockey tournament, and all of a sudden the caller ID, it says Jared Polis, and I thought it was just gonna be like an aide or some kind of spam or something, and it was really him, and he offered me the job.

• 9:42Mike Rowe?

  That's the governor?

• 9:43Speaker 03

  The governor of Colorado. And when the governor calls you and says, I'd like you to take this position, how do you say no? But it's also so flattering, I mean, without what we've done at TACT and showcase what's possible, when you give people the opportunity to be successful and have their talent and skills recognized, I don't think that would have come about. So, I mean, it's been a pretty amazing catalyst.

• 10:02Mike Rowe?

  Well, it's, I say a lot in my weird little world that I, I feel like the headlines have caught up to MicroWorks.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:11Mike Rowe?

  And made the whole endeavor relevant in ways that I hadn't imagined, frankly.

• 10:19Mike Rowe?

  You feel the same?

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. Like, when TACT started thirteen years ago, or sorry, ten years ago, my son was diagnosed over thirteen years ago, people, A, didn't know what autism was. You were given a book, and when I say a book, I mean like a three-ring binder with some flyers in it, and they said, "Your child's autistic, good luck." And that's after you wait for years, I mean, when you look at the waiting list for what people are looking at, and then when we started TACT, trick, you know, if you've been there, it's a trade school, it's a trade program, we were turned down for insurance thirteen times, when people would look at the work that we're doing, say, "Wait, you want to put, you know, a table saw in the hands of an autistic kid, or a welding torch, or underneath a hydraulic lift for automobiles?" Like, they looked at us like we were just out of our minds.

• 11:02Mike Rowe?

  My friend Chad Hauser said the same thing, who started Cafe Momentum, and he's working with kids who, you know, are coming out of the juvenile justice system.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:11Mike Rowe?

  And he's giving them knives and fire.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:14Mike Rowe?

  And saying, "This is how the kitchen works, in a busy restaurant." And same trouble, like, right out of the gate, every investor, every actuarial, every HR type, they're just like, "No, no," a thousand times, "Have you lost your mind?" Why did you ignore them?

• 11:34Speaker 03

  I don't know why people ignored them. I don't know why...

• 11:36Mike Rowe?

  No, no, why did you ignore the people who said, "You can't do this"?

• 11:40Speaker 03

  That's a great question, because I believe in my son, I believe in our community, like, all that's possible. When somebody looks at you, and they tell you, you know, at the time, I mean, it seems like it's shifting a little bit, thankfully, that's one of the things I'm excited about, is now people are at least talking about autism. It was like the elephant in the room for so long, so now people are at least bringing it up. When somebody tells you something about your son that you don't agree with, or a family member, you roll up your sleeves and you dig in, and that's what I did.

• 12:07Mike Rowe?

  Well, it feels different in so many ways from so many other diagnoses, because it's so historically shrouded in mystery. Like, what is autism? What is neurodivergency? How does the scale work? What is ADHD? When did that become an acronym? And when did that find its way onto this ever-changing, sliding scale?

• 12:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:37Mike Rowe?

  Of ambiguous infirmary?

• 12:40Speaker 03

  I mean, to your point, you know, I co-founded the Colorado Neurodiversity Chamber of Commerce in 2022. And at the time, TACTT had won a DEI award. And I'm sitting around a room with a bunch of business leaders, and they're all for-profit, doing great work. And they would talk about the various chambers, the Black Chamber, the Women's Chamber, the Hispanic Chamber, et cetera. And then they got to me, and they were like, autism and neurodiversity? I've never even heard that word. What does that mean? And that was in 2022. And so when you look at the time, it was 1 in 36 kids that are autistic. When you start looking at PTSD, ADHD, OCD, autistic, all those kinds of things that fall in the neurodivergent category, the fact that people didn't know what it was just three years ago. I mean,

• 13:22Speaker 03

  for the first two years, that was the biggest question we got, is what is neurodiversity? And then, once you start talking to people and explaining it to them, they're like, oh, that's like my cousin, that's like my aunt, that's like my neighbor. They start asking questions more.

• 13:36Mike Rowe?

  Is it too big of an umbrella now to have a meaningful coverage? In other words, this is a really inelegant comparison. But LGT, LGTB, LGDBQ, the plus. And pretty soon, it's like, you know what? I don't quite know what the group is. And in a way, I kind of feel like something, some odd corollary exists here.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  The same thing, I mean, you're 100% right. And even within the autism spectrum, I mean, autism is such a broad spectrum, right? Where you have 40% of autistic individuals use alternative forms of communication. When I had a cousin named Jimmy, he used a chalkboard. Now we use iPads. And that's how he communicated. Then you have other autistic individuals that have 160 IQs and can do, you know, crazy math in their head, but might be socially awkward at that point. And so it's such a spectrum that even among that group, people get lost in trying to compare themselves, feel like they're part of a community. And in the neurodivergent community, by and large, too, when you hear that, most time people think of ADHD and autism. They don't recognize the other. And when you look at like our

• 14:44Speaker 03

  military, for example, and PTSD, most neurodiversity experts would be like, man, that's 100% neurodivergent. But they don't understand still how PTSD interacts and what that's actually doing mentally and cognitively on individuals.

• 14:58Mike Rowe?

  I have so many questions that I want to ask you, but I think it'd be smart and maybe useful for people, parents in particular, just to hear a little bit about the first two years of Dylan's life, when this diagnosis happened.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:13Mike Rowe?

  And really, just how do you, I know you said they, they basically handed us a book and said, "Good luck."

• 15:19Speaker 03

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 15:20Mike Rowe?

  And so, how much of that has changed with the increasing advent of more and more and more? But going back to when it happened, if, I'm sure it's in the book, but...

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that definitely is in the book. It hasn't unfortunately changed very much. We know a lot more, but the waiting list still for people to actually get their child diagnosed or themselves diagnosed, at least like a hospital, like a children's hospital, it's still a multi-year waiting list.

• 15:46Mike Rowe?

  Years.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  Years. You're waiting years. And when you think of children and their formative, you know, two to four, four to six, a lot happens developmentally in that time period. And people are waiting and they're stuck and their kids aren't getting the resources that they need. Now, if you can afford it and you can go to private pay and spend thousands upon thousands of dollars, you can go to some private organizations and businesses and probably get a diagnosis at that point and some answers. But not everybody can do that.

• 16:12Mike Rowe?

  What do you do once you get the diagnosis? How does that change the practical reality of your life?

• 16:18Speaker 03

  No, I mean, that's the whole thing. They hand you that packet and then there's, you know, a ton of resources that are for younger kids. But I think the real cliff, and I think the work that I like to like fit my work into is what we call the cliff. What happens is kids go to school. Unfortunately, in schools, they might get, you know, ABA or some kind of autism therapy or intervention.

• 16:40Mike Rowe?

  What's ABA?

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Applied Behavior Analysis, which is like a really big, no, whole other topic within the autism community. And you'll definitely want to talk to others about that too, because that's an interesting topic. But that, you know, the supports exist through school and then after that, that's the cliff. And so, parents and those individuals find themselves, "Okay, I just graduated high school. What do I do?" And when schools are supposed to actually provide pathways for kids, college, military, trade school, when it comes to autism, they don't. They're in the back of the room. And that's part of the reason, that's this largest unemployed demographic.

• 17:17Mike Rowe?

  Ninety percent?

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. And when you look at that, now it's 1 in 31 kids, and they only take that from 8-year-olds, by the way. So if it's somebody diagnosed at 14, at 16, it doesn't count towards that 1 in 31. And so the real numbers, as things have changed and we start understanding more about it, I would imagine it's much, much higher than what people are actually talking about.

• 17:38Mike Rowe?

  Higher or lower? You mean like 1 in 20?

• 17:40Speaker 03

  Oh, in California, it's like 1 in 14. So the CDC, they only took it from a handful of states, too. And so they take just a couple of states of just 8-year-olds, and they paint this broad brush across the whole country and say, okay, this is going to fit for everywhere. And when you look at the East Coast and the West Coast, New Jersey has the highest, and California is probably second highest.

• 18:00Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  And then the other states, they kind of fall somewhere in between. But they don't actually look everywhere. And so no one actually really knows. And when you start actually going to like, looking at some of these, you know, studies that they do for 8-year-olds, it's very difficult to gauge the actual real number. But what we do know is schools have the highest number of IEPs, Individual Education Plans, or 504 plans, than they've ever had. And the teachers don't know what to do. And when you talk to college professors, they don't know what to do. When the work that I've got to do in the military, they don't know what to do. So you have this whole demographic of people that are coming up, and the traditional model just doesn't fit anymore.

• 18:41Mike Rowe?

  Because it's a painting with a very broad brush.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:48Mike Rowe?

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• 19:32Mike Rowe?

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• 20:17Mike Rowe?

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• 20:31Speaker 03

  That's exactly what it is.

• 20:32Mike Rowe?

  To reading, writing, and arithmetic.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 20:34Mike Rowe?

  And Dylan is not one-size. Well, he's his size.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 20:39Mike Rowe?

  Hard stop.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, I mean, he is who he is. And I think, you know, the, it's amazing how your kids, you end up finding what you're supposed to do in your life. And I think without Dylan and without my family upbringing, I mean, without the things that my parents taught me, the things that my dad taught, that my grandfather and great-grandfather taught. It's amazing how it all kind of came together perfectly to do the work that I'm doing now. I mean, it.

• 21:01Mike Rowe?

  You know, I hadn't really thought about that when we last spoke, but when I think about, you were in the Air Force.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm a reservist.

• 21:08Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. And you play music.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did that, too.

• 21:12Mike Rowe?

  You won a Grammy.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Did that, too. Yeah.

• 21:15Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you can't hold a job.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Don't tell Becky that. That's actually something she's been teasing me about is she says I jump around a lot, but yeah.

• 21:23Mike Rowe?

  Well, please tell her hello. And I kind of wish you were here as well, because every time I talk to her, I, it seems pretty clear that what you guys have built and really everything you've done. I mean, she's a. She's a rod of steel.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Oh, it's the partnership. I mean, she is, she's the North Star for sure. She's pretty amazing.

• 21:42Mike Rowe?

  How did she take, going back 13 years, the first night you guys went to bed, knowing that your kid had been diagnosed this way?

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Well, Becky and I are actually a blended family. So her son, Trevor, so my stepson's autistic as well. When he was diagnosed, she found out, and she can tell you the story, he's in a different part of the spectrum than Dylan. She said that she was with him at two, walking up the stairs and saying the letters of the alphabet, walking up the stairs. And he would repeat the letters back at two. He was already speaking the letters of the alphabet, walking up the stairs. And then they were walking back down the stairs, and he did it backwards at two. I can't do that now. Like, if you were that cop that pulled me over and said, touch your nose and say the alphabet backwards, I can't. I couldn't do that.

• 22:26Mike Rowe?

  Guilty. Just take me to jail.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  He was doing that at two. And so she started wondering, like, that's odd. Like, he's super smart. Like, I didn't see that coming. But both her and also Dylan, you know, Dylan was about six, six and a half before he could say, hello, Dad, I love you. He's very tall. My ex-wife, she's very tall. Her family's very tall. And he would be in a public park, and he would mainly hang out by himself. He wasn't very social. But because he was so tall, kids would come up to talk to him, and he would try, and he didn't know, he couldn't get it out.

• 22:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  And they would be confused at that point. It's like, what is, what is he trying to say? Like, what's actually happening? Oh, yeah, there he is. Good-looking boy. And now, I mean, you know, it's really interesting because when I look at Dylan and how things have changed, I love telling this story because it's so important with everything that's going on in the world right now. When Dylan was diagnosed, he went through all these different therapies, from ABA to speech, occupational, fine motor, gross motor, everything and anything you can think of. And I always get goosebumps when I tell this story. But I started doing research into autism, its background, before starting TACTT. And got a lot into diet. And started going to the doctors and saying, I'm reading all these different things about the stuff that we're putting in our body,

• 23:41Speaker 03

  about diet, and about its effect. And they were like, oh, this is pseudoscience. There's nothing with it. It's complete trash. Don't go down this. But a lot of it had to do with gluten, for example. And so just cut gluten out and just said, let's just try it with Dylan. Let's just see what happens. And a month later, the speech therapist pulled my ex-wife and I into a room. And they say, we have, I get goosebumps every time I tell the story. They're like, we have to ask you, like, something's changed and we can't explain it. We've been tracking his language. And here's, and they bought this pretty little graph. And they're like, this is where his language is right now. In the last month, his speech has more than doubled. And we have no idea why. What have you changed? Because clearly you changed something that we can't explain. And the only variable that would change was taking gluten out.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  And now even to this day, like if we're out and he accidentally eats a hamburger bun, his speech instantly declines.

• 24:33Mike Rowe?

  And yet, when you tell that story, I can hear people right now going, well, you know, correlation doesn't equal causation.

• 24:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:42Mike Rowe?

  And we're gonna have to do some tests.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:44Mike Rowe?

  Then we're gonna have to do some more tests. And I just imagine it must be so frustrating. I know, dealing with the fallout of my interview with Gavin.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:55Mike Rowe?

  And the fallout that will surely follow my interview with Del Bigtree.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're gonna hear some comments. Yeah.

• 25:04Mike Rowe?

  But here are the comments that I get. And look, I'm a science guy. I'm, I want very much for our institutions to regain the public trust. But I don't think that can happen if we simply trust them. They've broken some trust. And I feel like the world we're in, and tell me if you are in this place, but like, oh, that's been debunked. No, no, no, that, that study's been conducted. That part of science has been settled. And so what did the doctor say? When you said, look, we cut out the gluten and his speech doubled. Therefore, like, was there an immediate conclusion? Was there a, like?

• 25:48Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 25:49Mike Rowe?

  Like trumpets in the distance or something?

• 25:51Speaker 03

  No, they were just like, okay, that's great. Keep going with that.

• 25:53Mike Rowe?

  See.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  I mean, and that, that's, there was no like, give me examples. How did you do that? When did you start it? Why, I mean, again, like I went to them first and said, I'm reading about this online. What do you think? Now, there's more out there that people are talking about it. And I think I give you a lot of credit. I think it's great that you're actually talking to people of varying opinions and of different experiences and different research, because we need more than that. And then, you know, that stuff, the science is beyond me, that that's not my gig. But like, now, working with individuals that are there, where they're at, and trying to find pathways for their future, that's where I like to work.

• 26:29Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's, I mean, that's why I think you're in such an important role, not just in the state now.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:36Mike Rowe?

  That's a macro thing. You're also in the micro category, where you get to, every day, you know, get the kind of feedback in your own never-ending quest for correlation, causation, you know, something.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:51Mike Rowe?

  You know, your quest for understanding what you can do to help your kid, that's never-ending. And so, you know, what do you say to parents? Do you get into this in the book? And how often do you have conversations with parents who are desperate for some kind of lifeline? Some sort of, you know, credible source of no bullshit truth?

• 27:16Speaker 03

  That one, we really don't get into with parents very much. Where we do get into parents is they come to us, and their kids could be thirty, forty years old, they've never heard what their kid is good at, they've never heard things that, what a future looks like for their child. And when you think of the fact that a lot of these, you know, young men and women are living at home with their parents, the parents are worried about what their kid's future is going to look like. And they're at that point, sometimes, where they're just like, I don't know what to do. I've tried all of these different things, there's no really option. Because what's happened is, we've ended up taking autistic individuals, we've put them into groups of like, okay, you can go work at a restaurant, you can go work at a coffee house, you can go work at a gas station. If that's what somebody wants to do, man, God bless them, and I hope that they find

• 28:01Speaker 03

  fulfillment, and it's awesome. But for whatever reason, it's never really come up, where all of a sudden, people are like, okay, why don't we give them an education? Why don't we give them training? Why don't we give them the opportunity to actually go do this fulfilling job? Something that they find interesting. And the fact that TACT's been doing it 10 years. No one else has done it yet, and we get a lot of people that talk about it. And I mean, so Becky and I, we're starting another one in Nashville that we're calling Buildable Academy. And we're going to be doing that because we figure, I mean, in the book, I tell people essentially how to do it. No one's still, no one's doing it. And the number keeps growing and growing. And so it feels like it's bigger than us. And so like, we need to actually grow it and actually do it ourselves, is what it feels like right now.

• 28:45Mike Rowe?

  How are you gonna do it?

• 28:46Speaker 03

  The hair's gonna keep getting grayer, that is for sure. But like, I think there's enough parents and individuals that are hungry for it. And I think when you see countless success, I mean, the amazing thing that has always been part of the cool part about TACT is it's never been about charity or pity. It's always been around the return on investment and the value proposition of our kids. When businesses look at them, and you've met some of those businesses, and they're so happy with the graduates that they end up hiring more. I think it's opening those doors and showcasing what can be happen.

• 29:17Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you know, in that last episode we did, I remember it was, was it Ytech?

• 29:21Speaker 03

  Wayfield.

• 29:22Mike Rowe?

  Wayfield.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:24Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I mean, not just the kids that had gone through TACT who were working over there, but the, what do you call the sort of the go-betweens, the people who are?

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Like the general managers and the, with our employment specialists and stuff like that.

• 29:38Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, that. They're so dedicated. And you know, I don't think people get that level of dedication or commitment until, or unless they see the evidence day in and day out. That's what's really on display in Intact. And there as well, which is why, that's why we wanted to come out in person and do it. Because I think, I think maybe the thing you're trying to accomplish will get a lot easier to do. As more people physically see

• 30:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:10Mike Rowe?

  the results that you're getting, like you, you have to show them.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  We have, and that's, we've always struggled because when people walk in or they see it for the first time, they realize like, oh, this is real. This isn't like kids building birdhouses in the back room, you know, with balsa wood, like this is real deal, like they're actually really doing it. And I don't know why that, that image exists in people's mind, but for whatever reason, as we talk about it, still there is that assumption that it's somehow less than. And I think that's where parents get concerned for when they think about their kids and for the future is people hear the word autism and they still think less than, for whatever reason, they still think

• 30:49Mike Rowe?

  Deficit logic.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  It's a deficit logic, right? And recognizing, are there real struggles? Absolutely. Yes. Like to, to say that there's not, I think would be a lie. That we, we have employment specialists that are helping, right? Like, and we're looking at what that looks like to overcome some of those things. But there's also the way that we've gone around training and teaching kids for a long time. I can't really say it's working. When you like, look at all the things that are like coming about for anybody in school at this day and age. Is it really leading to, for like, real futures for kids? And like, are they actually getting education that's causing them to think and create and explore and discover and be innovative? I don't know if that's the case anymore. And I think that, you know, the way, like the whole inspiration for Tacti, I mean, like the way my grandfather, since we were just

• 31:32Speaker 03

  talking about aerospace stuff, my grandfather helped design the lunar module. There's actually a plaque, because that actually really happened, by the way, it wasn't just in a desert in New Mexico or something. You know, like all the people that actually helped with that.

• 31:44Mike Rowe?

  Sorry, that's been debunked.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 31:46Mike Rowe?

  That's nice.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  We know, that's, yeah, that's right. That's true. When I think of that, you know, my grandfather didn't have a college degree. He helped nail him strong on the moon. But today, it's like, oh, you want to work in aerospace program? You have to have a PhD. You have to have a master's degree. You have to do all of these different things. And I can't tell you how many air force guys I know that have done cool stuff in space and they go to work for as a contractor afterwards. I'm like, oh, you don't have a degree. And it's like, I literally just did the same job, sitting next to somebody at a console that you're working with, but because I don't have that degree, I don't get to do this? And they don't.

• 32:20Mike Rowe?

  It's a terrible thing, you know, because you can't, it's so easy to go too far in either direction with credentialing. Yeah. I remember, I think it was Jon Stewart was interviewing a guy who had recently come back from Afghanistan. He was just, he was trying to get hired as a nurse. Yeah. Because he was a medic. Right. And, um, you know, he's going in interviews and they're asking about his experience and, you know, his last experience was keeping a guy alive with one hand by staunching a horrible wound while killing two combatants with the other hand and his service revolver. Right. And then going back, saving that life and saving another life with just the most

• 33:02Mike Rowe?

  blood soaked kind of triage and stress that you can imagine. Yeah. You didn't have the right credential. Mm-hmm. No job for you. Right. And, you know, somewhere in the insanity of that is the insanity of the cookie cutter broad based attempt to teach everybody the same way. So if there's a question in here, I suppose it is what is it about the trades that seems to make a different level of sense to so many of the kids you've encountered? Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other

• 33:47Mike Rowe?

  way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five week, highly immersive pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on.

• 34:31Mike Rowe?

  Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website.

• 34:47Mike Rowe?

  I first announced this program a few months ago and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you or your spouse or your kid or your grandkid are looking for a straight path into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've wondered about that quite a bit. The thing that seems like at this point, and it's kind of changed over the years as I think about it more, is that it's not broken down, that it's everything at once. So like when you're building a project and you're doing a carpentry project, you're doing math, you're having to work together as a team, you're lifting heavy stuff, working out, you're doing all these different things at once. I think for a lot of kids, especially neurodivergent kids, most education now is just one thing at a time. You sit in a class and you just do math. You sit in a class and you just do science. You sit in a class and you just do gym. The trades, that's the way my grandfather, our parents, that's where they were raised. You did it all at once.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  And you didn't learn math by doing the same problem over and over in a textbook. You did it because you had a real problem to solve and you got to see a tangible result at the end of that. And then you got to walk away with that and say like, look what I did. If I solved this math problem, that's what it actually produces. If you can figure out X on a piece of paper, that's great. What does that mean?

• 36:21Mike Rowe?

  An A+ or a B-?

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:24Mike Rowe?

  That's not...

• 36:25Speaker 03

  It's so arbitrary at that point. And I think that's where I think our kids feel successful is they get to see it. And I think a lot of times, like when I think of Dylan, you know, teaching him to ride a bike, that was hard. Like I would love to tell you, like I was just like, alright, and like no cussing or extra whiskey was being drunk. Like that was not true. But like actually like seeing him be successful with the things that he's passionate about and he sees it too. And I think it's a win for our kids where they finally get to recognize something that they can do and achieve and they can be really good at it and have a great future with it too. I mean, it's providing an opportunity. When you start looking at the money that these kids end up making when they graduate, one of the hardest things that TACT has always been staffing it. When we do the Buildable

• 37:09Speaker 03

  in Nashville, one of the things that's going to be hard is staffing it because you can make a lot more money working in the trades than you can do... You know, as you're teaching it.

• 37:17Mike Rowe?

  Of course. Well, I mean, I imagine there's a pretty interesting gene pool to fish in if you're looking at retired shop teachers or.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  That's exactly what we do, yeah.

• 37:28Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 37:29Speaker 03

  Hundred percent, hundred percent, yeah. Cause they get tired or even, you know, people that have been working out in the field for years and years, they're like, I'm done with this. Like getting out, you know, working in a mill at six in the morning or four in the morning, like different factories. It's hard on your body. They're like, I'm just gonna go to a classroom and teach some kids. It's got air conditioning, heat.

• 37:47Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  It's controlled and we'll go from there.

• 37:49Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. And it's, look, I mean, teachers have gotten such a, such a bad rap in the last 20 years or so, and in some cases for good reason, but a great teacher, properly motivated, you know, in the right environment, in front of the right group of kids, that, that's such a time honored, magical thing. And for somebody who's now in their early 50s, late 50s, whatever, walking around with all this institutional knowledge, all of this hands-on experience, who has never thought of teaching before. Boy, I think it's the opportunity of a lifetime. You know, I'm imagining, just with the, like, I don't think you're gonna get shop class

• 38:34Mike Rowe?

  back in high school. I think you're gonna, it's the poop and the goose.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:38Mike Rowe?

  But you can build a shop class in the back of a Home Depot trailer or 18 wheeler that's not being used and you could outfit it with the people I'm thinking of and you can drive it to a parking lot at Walmart. And you can go on the air locally and you can say, guess what? There's a shop class over here in the back of a Home Depot truck in a Walmart all weekend long.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:04Mike Rowe?

  The tools will be there, yeah, there're gonna be waivers, yes, it's going to be, you know, I mean, it's not necessarily the, whatever the prevailing definition is of a safe space, but it's a place to learn.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  Oh, it's a hundred percent. And it shows kids that these things aren't scary. I think that's it. They've been taught that like, these tools are scary, that they're gonna hurt you, that it's dangerous. Is it dangerous? It can be if you're not being safe, but like, it's, we can set it up to be successful, absolutely, a hundred percent. And they get to explore and discover and see how cool it is to make things and like actually. Find enjoyment in that, and I think that's a real opportunity.

• 39:40Mike Rowe?

  You said that there's a certain appeal to doing multiple things at the same time.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:47Mike Rowe?

  Like a generalist versus a specialist.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:51Mike Rowe?

  I totally agree with that. In fact, I think, I think we've entered in like to the age of specialities in a way, and people are so siloed in what they do.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:01Mike Rowe?

  That they're just equal and oppositely ignorant in like all these other categories. That, that's a shame. But there's this other thing too, and I think it has to do with feedback. And the fact that, you know, when you're working in the trades, more or less, you really don't need to be told how you're doing.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  You see it. Yeah. It's either gonna work or it's not. Yeah.

• 40:23Mike Rowe?

  And you know it in real time.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:26Mike Rowe?

  Is there some different kind of synapse that gets fired in the brain of, of an autistic person around the whole notion of feedback?

• 40:37Speaker 03

  That's a great question.

• 40:38Mike Rowe?

  It's okay.

• 40:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know about that, but I, I know when I see kids come in and actually get to work with their hands for the first time, they light up in a way that's almost tangible. Like you can see it like in every fiber of their being.

• 40:52Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  And when you hear people say that autistic people are not visibly emotional, or, you know, they don't have that reciprocity of emotion, you definitely see it when they're actually achieving and like seeing something like that they're good at and feeling successful at it. Like, it is, I mean, tangible at that point. It's pretty amazing.

• 41:11Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'll tell you what I saw that I don't see in typical classrooms. I saw enthusiasm. It's such a great word, by the way.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:23Mike Rowe?

  I don't know the etymology of it, but just the, like, the mix of wonder and curiosity combined with tangible results. And I'm thinking of the young, of the girl I met there who was making that thing.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  Laura, or Lauren, Lauren, Lauren. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:39Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, yeah. What was that thing she was making? It was a...

• 41:41Speaker 03

  I don't know. It was like some little, I don't, device that it would spin and things would go up and down. Yeah.

• 41:46Mike Rowe?

  It'd spin and everything would move and it, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was just jumping out of her skin to explain.

• 41:55Mike Rowe?

  What this was. And initially, I thought, well, you know, she's excited the cameras are here and everything else. I don't know, it's not that.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  No, she didn't care that the cameras were there. She was excited to see you and show you what she was doing. Hundred percent.

• 42:07Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:08Mike Rowe?

  And then, the more I wandered around, the more I saw that. Scoops, is he still around?

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Oh, Scoops is now working, yes. Scoops is a great kid. Yes, they called you Dale?

• 42:20Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Or something like that?

• 42:21Mike Rowe?

  He called me Dale. This kid asked for my autograph. And I said, sure. I signed my name. He's like, I'm sorry, I'm looking at this. Is your name Dale?

• 42:32Speaker 03

  The thing, so, do you know who Dr. Temple Grandin is? Have you heard of her?

• 42:36Mike Rowe?

  Of course.

• 42:36Speaker 03

  So, she's a pretty amazing individual. And she was one of the reasons I started TACT where-

• 42:42Mike Rowe?

  Maybe explain a little bit about, I mean, her cattle, right?

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. She designed the machine that turns cows into hamburgers. And she's an amazing, she's a professor. She was just actually, her portrait was just put in the Smithsonian. And I fortunately have to call her a friend. Where I had the idea of TACT, was doing music at the time, and said, hey, I've got this idea. I'm looking everywhere. No one is doing this. I can't figure out why no one is doing this.

• 43:09Mike Rowe?

  You're talking to Dr. Grant?

• 43:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I went to like one of her speeches.

• 43:13Mike Rowe?

  Oh, okay.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  And so I went to one of her speeches.

• 43:14Mike Rowe?

  And you went to the speech because Dylan had just been diagnosed?

• 43:17Speaker 03

  Exactly, yeah.

• 43:18Mike Rowe?

  So now you're out there now, trying to figure out what-

• 43:21Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 43:22Mike Rowe?

  What am I dealing with?

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Right, and like Dylan, you know, three, three and a half, I let my kid play with scissors. And he would cut things out of cardboard and he would make these, you know, cool suits. He thought he was Iron Man or Wolverine. He'd make all these different things. He'd put together Legos just by looking at pictures of the box. He couldn't yet say, Dad, I love you, or hello, Dad. And, but he was doing these, and I didn't know if it was just the family background, the trades, the things my dad taught me, that, you know, the way we grew up, or what with his autism. But I knew that he was successful at it. And I would go to all these therapists, and all they ever told me was something that was wrong. They would say, your kid's walking on his toes. He's not making eye contact. He is sensory, he needs to work on this, and work on this, and work on that. It was always something to work on, and never anything of like, hey, he's good at this. Like, why don't you explore that? Never happened.

• 44:06Mike Rowe?

  More deficit analysis.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  Yes, more again. And so had this idea and went to Temple and said, hey, I've got this idea. I can't find anything like it. Is there anything out there like that? And she's like, there's not, you need to stop and go do it. And so that was the catalyst that was finally like, okay. And for whatever reason, the moment in life, I was like, great. We had good lawyers in New York to help us put together. We started the 501(c)(3) and here it is now.

• 44:32Mike Rowe?

  Do you remember the name of the doc about?

• 44:34Speaker 03

  I remember it was that Van, oh, the doctor that diagnosed Dylan or the?

• 44:38Mike Rowe?

  No, no, the documentary.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 44:40Mike Rowe?

  That introduced the world to Temple Grandin.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  I know she had a new documentary that just, um, that CSU just did. That's been very successful. And there's the HBO movie that did about her too. But I don't remember the other documentary.

• 44:53Mike Rowe?

  See what you can find, Chuck. It's worth recommending because as I recall it, it felt like that was such a giant mainstream, like, hey, hey, America.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:06Mike Rowe?

  This is happening over here. This is what it looks like. And get a load of this woman who found a way to contribute mightily.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  And the thing that she lived about tact when she came, she was watching what the students were doing and she noticed that they didn't just buy things, they made things. And I think that's something that's lost. Like the little holders on the end of the welding tables. Our students welded those up and it's just bent metal, but our kids made those. The thing that's for the lockdown, God forbid something terrible happens. Our students made those. And it was like that creativity that they did. She's like, so your kids are making stuff to make their workplace better. Most programs, they look on Amazon or they go to Home Depot. And those are great places to go get stuff, but where did that creativity go? When you think of like, yeah, okay, that's the new one that just came out.

• 45:55Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, that's the most recent.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  Which is fantastic. Yeah. And so. An open door, right?

• 46:02Mike Rowe?

  That's the latest one, the first one I'm looking for, that one that really put, something to do with like, it wasn't just turning cows into hamburger.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's more to it. Yeah, there, yeah.

• 46:15Mike Rowe?

  But it's like, you know, the whole shoot system.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  And the pressure and the sensory that comes from that. Absolutely.

• 46:20Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Yes. Well, the HBO movie was a big part of that. But I don't remember the name of the documentary. So Chuck, I hope you do find. A Story of the Mind.

• 46:28Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  Could that be it? Maybe. Speciesism.

• 46:33Mike Rowe?

  I don't know.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  She ended up, when she came to TACT, and I showed her the book, and it was really cool because we text now and like, she'll like see me on different things and, or if like on the local radio or podcast or something, and she'll call me and be like, "Hey, Danny, I heard you. Great job." And she just is very encouraging in that. And so when I wrote that book, she actually, she was touring TACT, and she handed it to me and said, "Can you sign this for me?" And it was such like an amazing experience to have this person that's very influential actually come to you and be like, "Oh, my gosh." And it's interesting how we keep in touch. I was actually out here in California at Stanford presenting, and she had called me because she was at a stadium, some basketball stadium, the elevators weren't working. And she was like, "Danny, you need to start teaching people to fix elevators."

• 47:17Speaker 03

  And she just called me out of the blue because she was checking and no one was fixing elevators.

• 47:21Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  And I was like, "Well, I'm really looking forward to seeing you speak tomorrow." And she's like, "I don't know what you're talking about." And I was like, "You're the keynote at Stanford. Tomorrow? Where are you at?" And like, her voice was all of a sudden freaked out, and they worked it out, and it was great. But thank God she called, right? And so, anyway, just need to have that relationship with her now, and just to like support each other through. Because I mean, when you start a nonprofit that does this-

• 47:49Mike Rowe?

  I'm sorry, I'm sorry, man. I can't let that go by. I just need to understand, the great and legendary Temple Grandin, at this point in her life, calls you out of the blue to tell you that you need to essentially unleash your autistic army into the elevator repair business. And you then remind her how much you're looking forward to seeing her at Stanford, and she has no idea she's supposed to be there-

• 48:14Speaker 03

  No idea. That she's supposed to do it.

• 48:15Mike Rowe?

  Less than 24 hours.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  It ended up being a virtual thing, and Temple being Temple, she didn't have a presentation together, so she ended up like pulling up pictures on her cellphone, and there was a rocket explosion that had just taken place or something. So she would like pull up, and she's like, "I reverse engineered it. This is the grommet on the spacecraft that caused it to blow up. If they would have had autistic people, this never would have happened." And like, she's like holding up this to a zoom camera and to this giant auditorium of people at Stanford, and it was just amazing. I mean, it was just so perfect.

• 48:47Mike Rowe?

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• 49:30Mike Rowe?

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• 50:10Mike Rowe?

  Okay, well, let's keep going with that then. The, I mean, like, the idea of, are you telling me one hour or just?

• 50:18Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm saying, I just wanted to get your attention to tell you. It's called "The Woman Who Thinks Like a Cow."

• 50:23Mike Rowe?

  That's it.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  That's it. The woman, I don't have a picture or anything. I just, you know, I have a title.

• 50:28Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. So imagine a woman, and imagine a cow, and then imagine a woman who thinks like a cow.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Who thinks like one, yes.

• 50:34Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Well, I think, why would a cow want to get slaughtered? Why would a cow want to be turned into hamburger?

• 50:40Speaker 03

  Well, that's what she noticed, is she noticed, like, from her perspective, she could relate to the cow and see the anxiety that was taking place. And so her perspective reframed the process to actually cause the cow to be calm and, like, willing to actually go in by itself. And then it changed the quality of the meat at that point, too.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  And so.

• 51:01Mike Rowe?

  Dramatically.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Dramatically, yeah.

• 51:03Mike Rowe?

  Everything about the traditional slaughterhouse is...

• 51:09Mike Rowe?

  Seemingly intentionally designed to trigger maximal amounts of terror.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:16Mike Rowe?

  And so you are literally seeing the thing that you're being led to. And you're watching your friends go in. And she just completely upended all of that.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  And she tells you the same thing when you talk to her. It was her ability that actually ended up giving her so many opportunities. When she was able to solve a problem and then demonstrate that. All the thankfully, people in the businesses were able to look at it and be like, she's right. And I think that's the neat thing that we see all the time attacked with attacked graduates is they go to these jobs and they're able to solve problems. And you hear of businesses all the time, not even just, not even able to like find people, but find people that are willing to be creative. And you think about the way that we go about hiring, it's the same way all the time. Like we have a resume, we sit across, we make pretty high contact, we talk about chit chat. And we read off the resume and if they like your personality, then they're probably going to hire you.

• 52:09Mike Rowe?

  So much is a beauty contest.

• 52:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, very much. But at the end of the day, you want somebody that knows how to has the skills to actually do that job. And I think that's something that our kids do really well and are young adults is they're developing those skills. Not to say they know it all and they still need to learn, but they're setting up that repetition to be successful. And I think to your point earlier about shop class coming back, it'll never happen because what happens now is we just give kids iPads and say, watch this YouTube video on how to rebuild an engine. That's not the same thing.

• 52:38Mike Rowe?

  But that's not teaching.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  No, it's not teaching at all. No one knows how to do it just because they watched a YouTube video on it. Like that actual experience of actually getting your hands dirty and doing it, that's what teachers do to do it.

• 52:48Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. And you know, it's one thing to, you know, teach somebody in this traditional way that we're talking about, or hire somebody based on the fact that they mastered a bunch of skills. Like, like anybody can master skills over time with the right instruction, I think. But not everybody. Can instinctively look for the side door, right? Like, look for a different way to do a thing. As, as Grandit said, you know, oh, no, it's the grommet there. It's like, no, no, it's an O-ring.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:24Mike Rowe?

  So like this combination of detail oriented thinking and, well, why would I go that way? Everybody goes that way. And if you're looking to solve a problem, you know, maybe you just don't keep going in the same direction to do it. And then that gets back to these, these personality traits that I've always been interested in that it's not just Briggs Meyer, but, you know, all of these tests that measure things like disagreeability, which is hugely important if you're going to try and, you know, sell an alternative way to do a thing.

• 54:06Mike Rowe?

  Cause all that resistance, all that pressure to, no, no, that's been debunked. We don't do it that way with the cows.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:14Mike Rowe?

  We do it this, like, no, so, so many, I don't want to generalize, but it seems like so many people who are dealing with this are, don't suffer from the need to conform or the desire to please in the same way.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  I think that's, you hit the nail on the head. I think that's where the great disconnect. A friend of mine named Tim, he calls it the agreeability factor where autistic and neurodivergent people, they'll call BS like straight to your face. Like if it's not working, like they will just tell you.

• 54:46Mike Rowe?

  Is your name Dale?

• 54:47Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 54:48Mike Rowe?

  Because I'm looking at this.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:51Mike Rowe?

  You said you were Mike, but this doesn't look like Mike.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  And, you know, some employers don't like that. And like, at what point did we get to that where like, everybody has to like, agree on everything all the time? Like, we have to be able to like, look at it and be like, are they right? Like, and be reflective in that notion. And, you know, one of the stories I love to tell is, um, one of our graduates got a job working at Coors, cause they pay like 38 bucks an hour to like brew beer at Coors and watch it come down the factory line there in Golden, right outside of Denver. A kid got a job working there at the factory. On day one, she noticed something that wasn't being done right. And she went to the supervisors at Cores and said, "You're brewing beer wrong." And like, could you imagine going to Cores and being like, "No, no, no. Like, there's a better way to do it." But they had the mindset, they looked at it and they're like, "Oh, my gosh, she's actually right."

• 55:37Speaker 03

  And that's what I mean, where then they called Becky and they're like, "We need more." Like, where does this come from? Like, we need more people like that. Where there is that mindset of some that are like, "We want to grow. We want to do it differently. We want to learn and do better." I mean, they make more money that way. But some just want, you know, the same old, same old.

• 55:56Mike Rowe?

  So, just to come back to the most practical matter here that I know that TACT is focused on. Ninety percent of this community is unemployed.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:05Mike Rowe?

  What percentage of your students slash graduates are employed today?

• 56:13Speaker 03

  It's went up to 83.4. So it went up just one point, a little bit higher. But I think I'd like to point out, it's not just employed. It's advanced. It's sustained employment. It's been promoted to management. And I like that to qualify that that's a difference. Because what happens a lot, especially now, you know, working in the state, for example. And I see, we measure things in short term, right? We'll measure things 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. How long is somebody working two years from now from certain schools? They can't tell you that. But TACT kids are staying and they're sticking and they're growing and they're actually like advancing. They're moving up to middle management or higher management. They're getting to do other jobs and explore different options in the companies.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  I think that's a skill and a thing that businesses have been missing for a long time. And I think if we're going to actually start changing the paradigm, like in Colorado right now, there's more people over 60 than under 18. If we want this machine to keep working, we have to get people employed. Like, we just have to. Like, we don't have enough young people in the workforce to actually sustain it. But when you have a giant group of people that are totally capable and have all these amazing talents and ability, and you're not even giving them the education or training to try, because that's what happens most of the time. And that's not a Colorado thing, that's everywhere. And I think that's why what we've attacked, what we're gonna try to do with the buildable stuff, what I'm trying to do in the book, is to start showing people and teaching them how to do this

• 57:38Speaker 03

  and letting them have the ability to take what we've learned. Because we've learned a lot in this process, with things that don't work, things that do work, and help them kind of start on the 50-yard line when we were on the zero-yard line.

• 57:50Mike Rowe?

  How big do you reckon this community is, best guess?

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Or it- Oh, man.

• 57:55Mike Rowe?

  Is it a guess? Does anybody actually know?

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Well, no, no one actually knows. The way I like to think about it, if you think about this, the average, when you look at like what the government spends on different services, right? Medicaid, different therapies that families are doing. It averages between $60,000 and $80,000 a year on services. If you were able to take that money and say, okay, I'm gonna funnel it towards education and training for autistic and neurodivergent folks and get them working, you're generating hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of taxable income that all of a sudden goes back into the system that gets more doing. For whatever reason, we've chosen to like keep folks living in homes. Thank God we got rid of institutions. But there's even movement to get folks back into institutions where they don't get that

• 58:42Speaker 03

  education or training to actually try and see if that's something that they want to do. And the fact that like kids, when we have attacked, you know, other trade programs, they may have, you know, onesie twosies, or Susan, they don't know that are autistic. But I can't tell you, man, I've called and said, you know, we've got a child that's autistic. We can't have them in a program. We don't want to do, so we're gonna send them to you. And the fact that that's happening all over, they're not even getting the opportunity to see what they're gonna be creative and explore for their career.

• 59:11Mike Rowe?

  What did it cost?

• 59:13Speaker 03

  A lot.

• 59:13Mike Rowe?

  Like, the facility you have right now?

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:16Mike Rowe?

  What did that take? And the reason I'm asking, and I, apologies if it's, you know, confidential or whatever, but I would love for other states, A, to replicate your position in their legislatures. And B, honestly, just do the math. If you've got an 84% placement rate-

• 59:37Mike Rowe?

  From graduates attacked and there's a 90% unemployment rate in the cohort of the community.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  It's the elf in the room.

• 59:45Mike Rowe?

  It just agitates me because it's just math.

• 59:48Speaker 03

  It's just about, and to that point, that's why the job I'm in now, we ended up creating an entirely new public school designation called a specialized day school in Colorado. Took three years because they wanted what they called day treatment centers or childcare centers for autistic kids. And we would argue like, this isn't a daycare, this isn't a childcare. Like, we're creating opportunities for young adults and older adults that are over that cliff of 21. And thankfully, the state went about it. And that's where like, I saw that that could be possible. The building attacked was $2.2 million. The renovation was a million and a half. And most of that was donated by companies like Wayfield that you saw, that people that, you know, the different Toyota, Subaru, Mitsubishi foundations that came in, like MicroWorks,

• 1:00:32Speaker 03

  that actually helped us make that possible. And then to replicate it, that's what we're going to be doing with the Buildable Model now, is taking it and like packaging it and saying, here's the curriculum, here's how you set up the classroom, here's how you set up the sequencing of what that looks like too. Because the same kind of thing that's happened is we have textbooks and we say, okay, when I was in, I went, was fortunate enough to go to college, which is great. Did that help me? Maybe. I'm happy I did. But they'd give you a book and they call it, I had a teacher, he called it chapter seven learning. They give you a book, you start on page one, by the end of Friday, you're at the end of the chapter, you take a test, forget it, move on, chapter two the next week. Nobody learns that way anymore. But still in trade schools, that's what's happening is here's a book, we're going to do these projects.

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  We've also set it up where it's competency based first timetable based. If we can have a kid come in and actually demonstrate all of the skills necessary to work, why does he need to be there for four years and eight semesters? It makes no sense to do that. And every educator I've ever spoken to, you're like, hey, why is college four years? Why is high school four years? I don't know. Nobody knows. But we've done that. We know that we had summers off because we used to be farmers, but kids aren't doing that and they're not helping their parents like farm crops anymore. But we've just gone all in on this model, but we're trying to reframe that and at least start the conversation around it and say like, look at the quality of the candidates we're producing of this talent pool that you've disregarded.

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  And not even acknowledged and like looked at this word of autism or this word of neurodiversity as lesser than and recognize, hey, there's opportunity here. And if you want to make money, these kids think outside the box. You'll make more money if you get people thinking outside the box.

• 1:02:12Mike Rowe?

  It's just so extraordinarily ironic to think that not only could what you're doing be transformational within the community you're primarily concerned with, but the methods and the methodologies could actually lead the way to reimagining mainstream education. And this is like, I'm seeing this now. Oh, where was I? Well, I was in Oklahoma in a trade school a couple of years ago. Just, we were filming in the, in the trade, the classic trade section. And during lunch, I wandered into another wing. It was the nursing wing.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Mike Rowe?

  And I started talking to some of the nurses there, as one would do. And, um, and I said, well, how long's, uh, how long's the curriculum? Is it, is it a two-year plan?

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:02:59Mike Rowe?

  And they were like, no one knows. I'm like, what do you mean, no one knows?

• 1:03:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:03:03Mike Rowe?

  Well, there are people who take two years. There are some people who take 18 months. There are some people who take a year.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Mike Rowe?

  And we just graduated three people in seven months. So you're done when you're done.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Mike Rowe?

  It's not a time thing.

• 1:03:21Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:03:22Mike Rowe?

  And like, but that is heretical.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:26Mike Rowe?

  That's heretical in the mainstream. My own brother, my own brother, that average student, went to college, didn't really, eh, majored in this and that and decided too late that he wanted to be an engineer. Seemingly too late.

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Mike Rowe?

  Engineering is one of those few disciplines, I don't know if it's still true today, but he just checked out the books from the library, big, thick books.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Mike Rowe?

  And he read them all in like a week.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:03:55Mike Rowe?

  And then sat for the boards.

• 1:03:56Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:58Mike Rowe?

  He's been an engineer for 25 years.

• 1:04:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:00Mike Rowe?

  So this credentialing, this one size fits all, it's all got to stop. Workshop for Warriors, we just visited down in San Diego. They're doing what you're doing only for service people who are struggling to find meaningful work down in New Orleans where uncommon construction. Same, same kind of ways, but they're all coming. They're all important because they're trying to close the skills gap.

• 1:04:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:32Mike Rowe?

  But they're all doing it with groups and cohorts that are unexpected. And that's what I think is going to get us out of this thing ultimately.

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  Since you brought up that earlier, kind of talking about like, you know, what we're doing with the neurodivergent community and autistic kids could go everywhere. Have you heard of the notion of universal design? Have you ever heard that phrase before?

• 1:04:53Mike Rowe?

  UD?

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Mike Rowe?

  No.

• 1:04:54Speaker 03

  Okay. Other, other D, thank UD, not other ones, but yeah.

• 1:05:01Mike Rowe?

  Independent universal design would be your IUD.

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  And so it's the idea, like if we start creating an environment where everybody can be successful. You know, a lot of things for people with disabilities that are created, we all use. Like if you're using ramps on a sidewalk, that was for people that use wheelchairs. But now moms and parents can use it on a stroller or people can use it with a cyclist. Wasn't designed for that. It was designed for people with wheelchairs. But now if you go somewhere and they don't have a ramp on the sidewalk, you're like, where's the curb cut? Like what's taking place? Why has that happened? If you use a toothbrush that actually vibrates that was set up for somebody with mobility issues to actually brush their teeth, now dentists are like, this is the way you gotta go.

• 1:05:36Mike Rowe?

  Only sensible way.

• 1:05:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, 100%.

• 1:05:39Mike Rowe?

  Do you have one?

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:05:41Mike Rowe?

  I got one too.

• 1:05:46Mike Rowe?

  If you work in boots all day long and your feet sweat, I feel your pain. And I'd recommend trying the socks that I wear every day from Camel City Mill. These guys sent me a box as a gift long before they sponsored this podcast. And I started wearing them and eventually I reached out to them because I love the product. And I wanted more sponsors on the podcast who make things in America. And now here they are again sponsoring another episode. Camel City Mill makes their socks in North Carolina with American wool in an American factory. Their merino wool blends help wick sweat away from your skin and their no sweat vent lets heat and moisture escape. That helps keep your feet dry and comfortable when you're spending long days in work boots.

• 1:06:30Mike Rowe?

  They also reinforce the heel and the toe with double plated nylon to stand up to the wear those boots put on your socks. Remember, it's not the feet that wear out your socks, it's your boots. And they back their socks with a 10-year durability guarantee. If you get a hole or a tear in the first decade, they'll replace them for free. If you're a hardworking guy dealing with sweaty, uncomfortable feet, I'm telling you, these are worth trying. I wear mine every day and I'm glad to have the company on the podcast. CamelCityMill.com. Use code ROW, get 10% off my favorite work socks. CamelCityMill.com, code ROW. How long did it take you to stop brushing?

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  I still do it.

• 1:07:12Mike Rowe?

  I do too.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  Becky, every night, like she just grabs my arm because it's like, I'm still, still to this day, still doing it. And she's like, stop, you have to, the toothbrush, you do the work. I'm like, that doesn't make sense. And like, wait for like the little change in rhythm? No, that's not gonna happen, so.

• 1:07:25Mike Rowe?

  That's been debunked, Danny. You see, that's not how we brush teeth anymore.

• 1:07:29Speaker 03

  That's how I brush my teeth.

• 1:07:31Mike Rowe?

  It's actually a really interesting metaphor for everything we're talking about. Because when the tool outpaces your ability to learn how to use it or adapt to it, then you wind up with this weird tension between, you know, technology and tactics, right? And so, maybe that's what's happening in education too. Maybe we're just constantly waiting for something to catch up. And man, if you start thinking about the autistic community as a uniquely gifted group, and if you start thinking about the rest of us as the people who have to figure out how to leverage the gift.

• 1:08:16Mike Rowe?

  Well, then you have, then you have a puzzle.

• 1:08:19Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:20Mike Rowe?

  Like, then you have a riddle.

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:22Mike Rowe?

  That's worth solving.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  Well, I think to kind of even bring it all the way full circle, I mean, to your point earlier, we have to start asking, like, why are we doing it this way? Is it working? Or should we, like, look at it and say, the way that we've been told to do it this whole time isn't necessarily the best way to do it? That we can get better results if we reframe it and start asking questions? And I think that's the very nature of science, and it's the very nature of growth, is to be reflective and say, can I do this better? And I think that's what we're trying to showcase, is that there's just a different way to look at it that's working.

• 1:08:53Mike Rowe?

  What do you think about, I've heard people say, listen, these, these rates, these dramatically increasing rates of autism, is it really autism becoming more prevalent? Or is the diagnosis simply becoming more universal? Are we paying more attention and therefore finding more of what we are looking for?

• 1:09:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Mike Rowe?

  Right? Somehow evaluating on a different metric, grading on a different curve? What do you say to that?

• 1:09:23Speaker 03

  I think it's yes and. I think, you know, when you, like, look at autism, we used to use, when I was a kid, we used the word Asperger's. You don't hear anybody use Asperger's anymore. Because Dr. Asperger was the Nazi that was studying autistic kids as, like, the superpower that could support their effort. When we were like, okay, we're not going to use that phrase anymore. So it's been around for a long time. That being said, could it be that they're diagnosing more? Yes. We also used to use the R-word all the time and put kids in institutions. I mean, you used to think about the time that, you know, now when we think about, like, profound autism, for example, those kids would probably be put in institutions at this point.

• 1:09:58Mike Rowe?

  Profound, meaning totally non-verbal?

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Correct, yes.

• 1:10:01Mike Rowe?

  Can't take care of themselves in a bathroom?

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  Correct. Might have some more mobility issues, very different things, yes.

• 1:10:06Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:10:06Speaker 03

  But when you think, again, 40% of autistic individuals needed alternative forms of communication, that's a big number. And so a lot of times, people will say, I don't remember that when I was a kid. Well, they were put in an institution somewhere and kept out. Now we're not doing that. Now we're saying, okay, they get to come into the home, they get to be integrated with the community, which is great. But at the same time, too, what happens when those caregivers age out? Because a lot of times, it's parents. And so, again, we have to find ways of making true integration with everybody. The other things, I don't really know. That would be a good conversation for Dell. He's way more researched than that.

• 1:10:42Mike Rowe?

  Okay. Well, what about a playbook then for parents? Or for all of us? I mean, the gluten thing is scary in the sense that you just stumbled across it.

• 1:10:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:53Mike Rowe?

  And it had such a profound effect on your boy. What are the other glutens out there? And what do you think a sensible diet could be? And how do you recommend? If you recommend any kind of experimentation with diet?

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  I think, yeah, that's a great question too. Becky would have all kinds of, she's the one you should be talking to about this.

• 1:11:17Mike Rowe?

  All right, get out. Get back, you're on the phone.

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  I'm on it. Yeah. But I think bigger than that, it's asking questions and being able to talk to each other about it and ask these questions. What scares me, you know, I'm so glad that people are talking about autism now in a way that they never have. I think it's finally, people are acknowledging it, they're recognizing it, they're talking about it. I don't like how people attack each other, how they're just instantly discounting each other. I think there's little bits of truth in everything everybody is sharing. And I think to think that it's, to put one group of people over here and say, no, you're just completely wrong. We're not going to listen to you, we're going to attack you, we're going to discount you. That's not a healthy way to look at it. And that would be something I would not recommend. I think we actually need to actually keep asking questions and wondering. Where are we at? Why is it here?

• 1:12:04Speaker 03

  What can we do? Recognizing that people that are autistic, it's not a bad thing, that this is not some bad word that means that they're less than or different or anything like that. Because I think what's happening still is that, what's happening, what I'm hearing, at least seen in the community, is people will hear things on the news and then they attack mothers, they attack fathers, and they attack the individual. I think once we start attacking people for that, that's a fairly dangerous and unscientific way to go about it.

• 1:12:29Mike Rowe?

  Well, it's difficult to fix a thing and attack a thing at the same time.

• 1:12:33Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:12:34Mike Rowe?

  You know?

• 1:12:35Speaker 03

  But I think, I mean, so much of it is fear-based. Oh, 100%. Right? I mean, it's just uncertainty. You don't, you, gosh, you just... I mean, when Dylan was diagnosed, you know, I was so mad at the doctors. I yelled, I screamed. I literally made the one nurse cry. For a brief time, I was like proud of myself for like standing up for my son and making them cry. I ran a red light, got a ticket, got a picture of myself getting a ticket because I was so upset. Now I like look back at myself and I'm like, dang it, like, what was I thinking? Like, I can't imagine my life without my son being who he is and the way that he is. And finding purpose and creating, you know, tact and writing a book and all the work with the autism community and now doing the

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  billable stuff and all the different stuff that I get to do with the state. I can't imagine changing that. And so I think it's healthy to look back and say, okay, are there things I could do different? Is there something wrong? Is there truth to the different things that people are saying? And being well, being vulnerable to talk to each other about it. And I'm scared that some folks don't do that. And I think, to your point, they're just being attacked. And that's a hard place to be, for sure. Why were you angry at the doctor? I thought, like, I think a lot of parents, when you hear that your kid's autistic, at least at first, you know, there's that deficit mindset that we were talking about. I thought, selfish thoughts, like, you know, is that the end of the combs line? Am I gonna have to take care of my son for the rest of my life? Am I gonna be a grandparent? I mean,

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  like, selfish thoughts, but very honest, like, thoughts, like, wondering what that looked like. And as I mentioned earlier, it's expensive, all of these therapies. You know, like, ABA therapy costs more on Medicaid, for example, in Colorado, than all other ER visits combined. Like, we are dumping tons of money into these therapies, but we're not putting money into training, into education, into opportunity for people. And for some reason, people are just going along with that and saying, yep, this works. And I don't understand that. I don't understand why people aren't saying, you know, they hear things about their kids, or they hear things about themselves, and they just go along with it. And they're not getting that opportunity to have those programs that recognize the

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  things that they can do and the opportunity that they could contribute to the world.

• 1:14:53Mike Rowe?

  It really is something, man. I, I see it in myself sometimes. It's not a flattering thing, but it's not enough to know what to do. It's normal not to know what to do, and then it's normal to learn what you can do. And then we enter into this weird world where you don't do it anyway.

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Mike Rowe?

  And it applies to so many things, like working out, eating less sugar, you know? It trickles all the way down to big decisions that could have giant impacts. And I think it's the same thing that makes people so frustrated with, with politics and policy. It's like, why, why does a nurse need a two-year certification plan? It makes me so angry that that guy, that medic, couldn't get hired, you know? But at the same time, when I'm lying on the cold steel table and the anesthesia's working its way through my body,

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:00Mike Rowe?

  you know, before my kidneys replaced, it's nice to look over on the wall and see a certificate there that the doctor graduated at the top of his class from some Ivy League.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:16:10Mike Rowe?

  That's still in me, too.

• 1:16:11Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:16:12Mike Rowe?

  And so, all these things, the desire to take the road less traveled and the comfort that comes from knowing that who's ever advising you has all the necessary initials behind their name. Where do you find peace? Where do you find certainty? What do you tell people about vaccines, for crying out loud? It's maddening.

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I think at the end of the day, for me at least, when I like, look at my son, when I look at my stepson, I look at it in the sense of like, recognizing that there is still a lot of answers that I don't have at this point. But I also feel like I'm doing everything in my point and I don't want to be that complacent person. Like, it would have been much easier for me to keep doing music and take the money from that and throw it at various therapies. That would have been easily the... Path that would have been the path of least resistance.

• 1:17:09Mike Rowe?

  Because you could have kept being the guy you were.

• 1:17:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:17:14Mike Rowe?

  And simply reallocated the fruits of your labors to deal with this.

• 1:17:20Speaker 03

  Right, and just put it to the side, pretend it's not there, keep doing your thing. And I think that's where a lot of people are. I think, you know, actually stopping doing that and actually being where I am now, I wouldn't change it for the world. But at the same token, you know, the stuff that Becky and I have done has come at great sacrifice. I mean, I can't tell you how much money, at least the first couple of years intact, was our own money that we threw into that. I mean, more money than I would really like to think outside and like actually say, like a lot of money went into it. The fact that like all the tools were taught with my dad's tools, my grandfather's tools, with my tools, like, we put everything into that. You know, in the long run, are we going to be sitting as pretty as, you know, parents

• 1:18:05Speaker 03

  that kept going that safe route? Probably not. But like, could the world actually have a conversation and start looking at what our kids are doing and have a bigger impact than that financial impact? I hope so.

• 1:18:17Mike Rowe?

  Danny, spoiler alert. The world is not aching and grieving for lack of another singer-songwriter.

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  I'm not a singer. That would have you go running. Chuck and I were talking about that because you guys sing well together, but if you had me, like, Jesus, man, what is going on?

• 1:18:37Mike Rowe?

  Well, I mean, you know, it's your, you love to play the guitar.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43Mike Rowe?

  Right. Well, you know what? Good for you, playing on your own time.

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:18:47Mike Rowe?

  You know, maybe you sell some records, maybe you don't.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:18:49Mike Rowe?

  Well, you did win a Grammy.

• 1:18:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I actually designed the music program they use to teach music in Nashville. Yeah. So I ended up having that heart for education. I mean, kind of like telling you the full circle, I took the like knowledge my dad taught me, like, as he was a home builder and teaching, taking with the music. And it's just kind of wild how that experience all comes together, so.

• 1:19:08Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, I think, I mean, the place to start to land the plane, though, is exactly what you just said. It's. Whether you knew it or not, you were confronted with a choice to double down on the guy that you are and keep doing the things you've been doing, or to like go down this totally other path. And I, I can promise you, what the country needs are people who will hit the reset button and put the guitar down for a minute and say, oh, I know, I'm going to build a trade school and I'm going to tailor it to the autistic community and

• 1:19:46Mike Rowe?

  I'm going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that doing so will lead to happy careers and happy people. And so you've done it. And so now the question is, I know you're going to do something similar in Nashville.

• 1:20:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, with Buildable Academy is what we're calling it.

• 1:20:05Mike Rowe?

  But why not TACT?

• 1:20:06Speaker 03

  The nonprofit model is incredibly difficult to replicate and actually keep that branding alive. Like actually taking TACT and taking that and putting it there, that's hard to control. It seems like when we do it this way, you can't franchise a nonprofit. We want to make it that like, give people the insight that we have learned and help them actually use it. And if we learn stuff from that too, awesome.

• 1:20:30Mike Rowe?

  Do you worry sometimes about, you know, the nonprofit world, at least in my experience in it? It's so, first of all, it's like running a business, only harder.

• 1:20:44Speaker 03

  Oh, it's tremendously difficult.

• 1:20:46Mike Rowe?

  It's like it's, it's every single challenge a small business owner would have with a whole other set of layers on top. People don't understand that.

• 1:20:56Speaker 03

  They definitely do not understand that, yes.

• 1:20:58Mike Rowe?

  But the idea that when you fundraise, like how much money goes to the program, how much money goes to promoting the idea, how much money goes to staff and overhead? And that to me is the great, not the great torture, but I think about it a lot because people love to evaluate.

• 1:21:22Mike Rowe?

  The charities and at a glance, you know, the numbers don't always tell the whole story.

• 1:21:26Speaker 03

  A hundred percent, especially when you look at, you know, some donors like we don't want our money going towards salaries or we want it going towards the program and the kids and that's awesome. But I can't have the program for the kids without paying the teachers and having a space to do it. And you just, you get in this circular conversation where people don't see that. And so then trying to raise enough to balance that and then justify that. And then finding teachers that are willing to work for less because it's a nonprofit and like just accepting that.

• 1:21:57Speaker 03

  It creates so many unnecessary obstacles.

• 1:21:59Mike Rowe?

  People are so funny, man. The idea, and I understand it. I've done it myself, you know, I, I want my money to do this.

• 1:22:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:06Mike Rowe?

  Well, you know what? The coin needs a head. It needs a tail. It needs a side.

• 1:22:12Speaker 03

  Did you ever read Uncharitable?

• 1:22:13Mike Rowe?

  Oh, I have it.

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:22:15Mike Rowe?

  Somebody just gave it to me. It's been sitting on my shelf.

• 1:22:17Speaker 03

  You need to read that. A hundred percent where he, he talks about how they were doing cancer support and they went all in and they like hired great staff and they paid them all a lot of money and they made like record amounts of money. And then donors are like, what are you doing? You're paying all these people, all this money. This needs to go towards the research. And so they got fired like almost everybody and then the money went down and less money came in and they had less money to give away. And it's, if you want people to do great work, you need great people and you need great opportunities for those people. And that means paying them well. And so.

• 1:22:53Mike Rowe?

  Well, here's my drama. Not that anybody cares, but. So MicroWorks is awarded, I think 3,200 scholarships.

• 1:23:05Speaker 03

  Congratulations. It's pretty amazing.

• 1:23:06Mike Rowe?

  Thanks. Say 18 million dollars.

• 1:23:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:23:10Mike Rowe?

  Now, if somebody came and said, here's a $20 million donation.

• 1:23:16Mike Rowe?

  And I wanted to go all for scholarships.

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:20Mike Rowe?

  I'd probably take it, you know, because why wouldn't I?

• 1:23:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:25Mike Rowe?

  But I would also say to them, look, that's gonna allow me to do another three or 4,000 scholarships. And that's great. Now it's a total of 8,000, 9,000 people we've helped. Good for us. We'll have a parade.

• 1:23:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:23:38Mike Rowe?

  What I need to do is tell the country the story of 20 or 30 of our rock stars who have crushed it. I need to make a compelling case for them and I need to buy media. I get, I need earned media, paid media.

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Mike Rowe?

  I need billboards. I need everything. And if I do that right, I'm gonna reach guidance counselors and parents and millions of people. And the number of people who then come and apply for scholarships is going to go through the roof. And then I can start, right? So, so it's like, I'm convinced the best thing I can do is tell the success stories of the people we've already assisted, rather than spend all of the money assisting more people directly.

• 1:24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Mike Rowe?

  That's hard to articulate, even for me.

• 1:24:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:31Mike Rowe?

  And I've been doing it 17 years.

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Mike Rowe?

  I only share this because I bet you've entered into the same space. You can spend all the money that you raise on the next location, or you can do it on, maybe on better salaries for people. You do all those things. Or you can get out there in the world. I don't know who's listening to this. Maybe Governor Abbott is listening. Maybe some other, we don't know. But the real gold medal in this whole thing is attacked in every state.

• 1:25:04Speaker 03

  I think that's what we need, 100%. I mean, to your point, like trying to get media. One of this came to mind and maybe it's a little off topic, but it was, the Air Force had set it up, which was really pretty cool to like, I was on News Nation, first live interview on News Nation. My military blues, looking sharp. And the reporter chose, since I did space stuff, to talk about aliens the whole time. And asked me if I'd ever heard and was covering. Not for the government, space aliens. And it's just like, oh, gosh, like, here is this opportunity that, you know, thankfully, the Air Force afforded to like, on military time, to kind of show like, how working with service members that are autistic, or have children that are autistic or neurodivergent, and showcase tact and all those things. And that entire airtime, about space aliens. And so like-

• 1:25:49Mike Rowe?

  News Nation.

• 1:25:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Was it a great opportunity? Yes, it was a great, but like, I think too, still needing that. I mean, what you're doing today is a big part of helping us get that out there. So, thank you, because we need more of that. We need more people to like, actually pick up the phone and actually start asking questions and saying, how are you doing this? Like, we want to like, help get this out there.

• 1:26:09Mike Rowe?

  Has, has the military sniffed around tact?

• 1:26:12Speaker 03

  Oh, the Air Force has been great, yes, very, very much so. My picture hung at the Pentagon for two years, which was pretty amazing, and talking about that. So, like, that part, the Air Force has been great. We need more of that. I mean, there was an initiative I was part of for a few years called the Neurodiverse Air Force. There's an article about Stripes about it. We have about 6,000 service members in that have autism and ADHD, which I'm really proud of. So like, there's, they've actually been pretty great. Now, that's changing with some of the things. Like, I have a beard, I'm a reservist. I'm gonna have to start shaving that beard. But like, some other things are changing too, but um-

• 1:26:46Mike Rowe?

  I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna guess that 99% of the people listening right now had no idea that there were 6,000 neurodivergent people in the Air Force alone?

• 1:26:56Speaker 03

  Oh, there's way more than that. I think that's like, a great elephant in the room. And it's like, when you start looking at the fact too, and prior to working in that, that's considered a disqualifying factor. And so too, when you look at the military and they start saying, you know, hey, we want you to come into the service, but you have ADHD, or you're autistic, or OCD, or, you know, something, they'll just say, no, that's, doesn't count, you're out. And so when you look at the fact, only 1% of us have, you know, raised their hand and sworn in, there's a whole bunch more that want to, but there's still that limiting factor at that point. And so when you are doing that, when you're talking about like, cybersecurity analysts, when you're talking about space operators, we, I mean, mechanics,

• 1:27:40Speaker 03

  when you actually are in there and you're talking to folks, especially in the Space Force, oh yeah, all day long.

• 1:27:45Mike Rowe?

  So, the bottom line is, yeah, you know, the first kid I met on this last trip, Enoch?

• 1:27:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, Enoch, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:51Mike Rowe?

  I mean, that guy is all about space.

• 1:27:53Speaker 03

  Oh, 100%, right? Yeah.

• 1:27:54Mike Rowe?

  All about it.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:56Mike Rowe?

  So the bottom line is, there are millions of jobs open right now. Companies are absolutely desperate to fill these roles with people who want to work, who have drive, who have work ethic, and who have the skills. Your organization, TACTT, has an 84% placement rate in a cohort that is 90% unemployed.

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:22Mike Rowe?

  That feels like the headline. If nothing else, we will lean into that and keep shaking the tree and

• 1:28:29Speaker 03

  Thanks, Mike.

• 1:28:30Mike Rowe?

  And see what falls out.

• 1:28:31Speaker 03

  Thank you again for all your support. You've been awesome. So it's always good to see you, my friend.

• 1:28:35Mike Rowe?

  All you're doing is changing the world. Thanks for the hat. Thanks for the shirt.

• 1:28:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Mike Rowe?

  Thanks for the book. If you'd have gotten it to me a day earlier, I would have read the Dagon thing, but I'll read it tonight.

• 1:28:45Speaker 03

  All right. Let me know what you think.

• 1:28:47Mike Rowe?

  I sure will. Where can people go? What should people do who want to help?

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I think going to TACTT's website, buildwithtact.org, definitely check it out. Buildables, buildthemacademy.com. The book's on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, anything like that that people want to check out. So that'd be a good place to start.

• 1:29:04Mike Rowe?

  Supporting neurodivergent and autistic people for their transition into adulthood. I'm just going to go ahead and say it's more relevant today than it's ever been in the history of time.

• 1:29:16Speaker 03

  Thanks, Mike.

• 1:29:17Mike Rowe?

  Thanks for writing it. If you like what you heard, and even if you don't, won't you please, pretty please, pretty please, subscribe. Well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty frickin' please, please sub, oh, please subscribe.

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• 1:30:17Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 1:30:18Speaker 03

  My fresh detector.

• 1:30:19Speaker 05

  Uh, your what?

• 1:30:21Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 1:30:22Speaker 05

  What is it detecting?

• 1:30:24Speaker 03

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 1:30:26Speaker 05

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  Apparently, we celebrate.

• 1:30:34Speaker 06

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.