‘The Last of Us’ Season 2 Premiere and Lessons Learned From 'The Pitt'

Chris and Andy talk about some lessons that TV executives could take away from the success of ‘The Pitt’ and why the show took off in such an organic way (8:50). Then they discuss some recent movie trailers that were released for ‘Mission Impossible—The Final Reckoning’ and ‘The Phoenician Scheme’ (27:51). Finally, they talk about the Season 2 premiere of ‘The Last of Us’ and the secret that a lot of this season seems to hinge on (32:12). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Senior Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe Show. That's right, I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're gonna talk about the games, yeah, the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the trades, the playoffs are coming up. And now, you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're gonna love, so make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe Show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcasts. Let's go!

• 0:39Speaker 01

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• 1:08Speaker 02

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• 1:21Speaker 03

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• 1:25Speaker 02

  I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk, now!

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, very concerned about Jackson, Wyoming, infrastructure, it's Andy Greenwald!

• 1:45Andy Greenwald?

  You're playing it cool, but we just got an earthquake alert here.

• 1:47Speaker 00

  We did get an earthquake alert. I haven't felt it yet. Are we sure they're real?

• 1:50Andy Greenwald?

  I think it was Katy Perry returning to Earth.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  That's right, my heart.

• 1:54Andy Greenwald?

  It's a beautiful thing.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Watch. Uh, I'm emotionally empty. I'm a vacant, uh, hollow mess.

• 2:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Because I watched the Masters yesterday.

• 2:05Andy Greenwald?

  Can you, okay, can you, I feel like I, there's a percentage of the audience, even that might be like me, like generally sports-aware.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:14Andy Greenwald?

  But completely golf ignorant. Can you give me some sort of pop culture analogy or some way to understand what happened? Because I didn't know that... Rory McIlroy.

• 2:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 2:25Andy Greenwald?

  Was lacking a green jacket?

• 2:27Chris Ryan?

  He was lacking one, yeah. It was for the career grand slam. So that means he had won all the majors, but he had been waiting 11 years to, to complete it. The last time he won a major was 11 years ago.

• 2:38Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, so it was increasingly like you would.

• 2:41Chris Ryan?

  He tends to, uh, like basically burn hot and then explode on impact, you know, like, uh.

• 2:47Andy Greenwald?

  Like my takes?

• 2:48Chris Ryan?

  No Blue Origin, I guess.

• 2:50Andy Greenwald?

  Careful.

• 2:52Chris Ryan?

  Careful about what? What are they gonna do? Honestly, come get me, man.

• 2:55Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I didn't mean careful, like, careful Jeff might hear you. I just meant like, do we have the full story about Blue Origin?

• 3:01Chris Ryan?

  They're back.

• 3:02Andy Greenwald?

  They're okay?

• 3:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:03Andy Greenwald?

  Then their, their suits look good?

• 3:04Chris Ryan?

  I don't know. I didn't check it out.

• 3:06Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, please continue.

• 3:06Chris Ryan?

  Rory McIlroy is essentially like the most pure, uh, manifestation of like the mental game. Like you can, he has every golf shot. He is the, he's, he's probably one of the two or three best golfers alive. Probably one of the two or three best golfers of my lifetime, but like we'll just get tight. You know, and, and screw up and he'll hit the greatest shot you've ever seen and then the worst shot you've ever seen. Not, I mean, I, my definition of the worst shot you've ever seen is much wider than Rory McIlroy's, but. Yeah, dude, it was just like watching a guy almost die and then turn into an angel.

• 3:44Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, so episode nine of the bit.

• 3:48Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, thank you.

• 3:49Chris Ryan?

  Um, and it, it's like five hours. It's so, it takes so long.

• 3:54Andy Greenwald?

  You just sat there. You know what's funny?

• 3:56Chris Ryan?

  I just sat there and ate chips and, and, and zin for so long that when he won.

• 4:04Andy Greenwald?

  What did you do?

• 4:04Chris Ryan?

  I thought I was having renal failure. I had so much salt in my bloodstream and so much nicotine, I could just like feel my carotid going. It was fucking gross.

• 4:16Andy Greenwald?

  What's beautiful about this, first of all, I'm very happy for you.

• 4:18Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, man. I don't even know if I like Rory that much. I mean, like, I'm like, I like Spieth. I like, there are other golfers I like, Max Homa, but like. I just needed this to be done. I needed him to do it.

• 4:27Andy Greenwald?

  What's amazing is, and I think people who listen know this, that we have a robust, uh, level of communication usually throughout the weekend, the weekend.

• 4:34Chris Ryan?

  It was quiet this one.

• 4:35Andy Greenwald?

  It was a quiet Sunday. So I was like, oh, maybe. Chris and Phoebe are like strolling in the Japanese gardens out at the Huntington, you know, like maybe, maybe they're

• 4:44Chris Ryan?

  Dizzy up into the sky looking for Katy Perry.

• 4:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, just like thinking about it, but no, no, you were just locked in.

• 4:50Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Andy, today on the pod, we're going to talk about The Last of Us, obviously, the first episode of the new season. You can hit us up at the watch at spotify.com. You can follow us on Instagram at the watch pod underscore and you can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer dash TV channel or on Spotify where you're listening to us. I wanted to ask you a couple

• 5:09Andy Greenwald?

  of Oh, can I do one? Can I do one house cleaning thing? Just like one personal thing?

• 5:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. All right. You know, I have mixed feelings about this, but

• 5:16Andy Greenwald?

  I know. Well, you know.

• 5:18Chris Ryan?

  We're finding out whose pod this really is. I'm not going to veto you.

• 5:22Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I appreciate that. Well, we could edit this out later. I'm not saying this is like a clip. I just want to say that like, you know, I try to just stay pure in my ivory tower, you know, with just with my own feelings and reactions to things. But I did get the general vibe that people, some people were very, very angry at me for not liking a show that they like. And then last week, I heard that they were angry at me for liking a show that they didn't like.

• 5:43Chris Ryan?

  Which one was that?

• 5:44Andy Greenwald?

  White Lotus, for now. Yeah. So, and you know, this isn't my first rodeo with with criticism and things and that, and that, and that's fine.

• 5:53Chris Ryan?

  So I put a little man carved out of a Lone Star can in front of you?

• 5:59Andy Greenwald?

  Can I draft the beer first? And, you know, you know, what's also not unfamiliar to me is people, you know, ascribing motive, you know, that like, it can't just be that it's my opinions and people in my real life know that I generally am incapable of not being honest about my opinions. Perhaps to my detriment or the detriment of the evening's conversation. And, you know, some people are like, oh, he's just a contrarian. He does the opposite of what everyone else says, and that's why he does it. And, you know, fine, think what you will. I'm just, just out here doing my best. But I did see one specific thing that I have to refute, which was someone's evidence that I am just a knee jerk contrarian.

• 6:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:42Andy Greenwald?

  Is that my favorite Radiohead album is Amnesiac.

• 6:46Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 6:47Andy Greenwald?

  Whose favorite Radiohead album is Amnesiac?

• 6:49Chris Ryan?

  Did you ever see that?

• 6:50Andy Greenwald?

  Never. In fact, on this podcast, five, could be 10 years ago, don't remember, I nervously ventured the take that maybe In Rainbows was their best album. And you said, "Yeah, of course it is. Everyone thinks that."

• 7:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Andy Greenwald?

  I was nervous about the extremity of that take. So I'm just here to say, nobody-

• 7:10Chris Ryan?

  I would rather you not-

• 7:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Chris Ryan?

  -do this. You know, like, I don't want you- I know it's hard not to look at the response to the response and everything. I get it. I know why you want to be engaged with this content, but-

• 7:21Andy Greenwald?

  It's poison, and I generally don't.

• 7:22Chris Ryan?

  It's a small minority of the listenership, and I don't, you know, if you're like just a guy, and you're, uh, you're going to a new iPhone factory that just opened up, that where you're, you know?

• 7:32Andy Greenwald?

  In America?

• 7:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:34Andy Greenwald?

  Are they hiring?

• 7:35Chris Ryan?

  You're probably like, "I want to hear these guys talk about The Last of Us."

• 7:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and we're going to. I just, I, oh, I didn't care about what people say. It was more that that was a bridge too far.

• 7:44Chris Ryan?

  Amnesiac.

• 7:45Andy Greenwald?

  Right?

• 7:45Chris Ryan?

  That was what broke the camel's back.

• 7:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes!

• 7:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 7:47Andy Greenwald?

  I can't let that stand, people out there slandering my Radiohead takes.

• 7:51Chris Ryan?

  I was, I actually-

• 7:52Andy Greenwald?

  You still think it's in Rainbows?

• 7:53Chris Ryan?

  I'm, I'm like coming back around to thinking it's actually okay, computer.

• 7:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, things, over time-

• 8:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, everything is-

• 8:02Chris Ryan?

  In Rainbows was a sincere take before, but, you know, while you're online reading all these takes, I'm at the Bernie rally, just being like, "What do you guys think is in Rainbows still?"

• 8:13Andy Greenwald?

  Are you calling Coachella the Bernie rally?

• 8:15Chris Ryan?

  No, it was downtown. He was downtown.

• 8:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but that's not the one you were at. You were front row to see Claro. I, oh, I watch golf. Okay, buddy.

• 8:24Chris Ryan?

  I've actually never, I couldn't have hummed a Claro song.

• 8:27Andy Greenwald?

  What do you think is their best album? Let's, let's go.

• 8:30Chris Ryan?

  Blue Origin.

• 8:32Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think that in, in terms that our listeners will understand, your, our feeling about In Rainbows was the moment when the droplet from the wave was at its highest point.

• 8:42Chris Ryan?

  Hmm. Is this a White Lotus album?

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. But now we have returned to the beautiful Churning Ocean.

• 8:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, which is, which is okay, computer.

• 8:50Andy Greenwald?

  Come on.

• 8:51Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Um, I did have some questions about the pit.

• 8:54Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 8:54Chris Ryan?

  Joe Reed had an interesting article in Vulture this weekend, uh, that was about- The pit, but specifically also, um, the pit specifically broadly speaking, this moment in TV. He talks a little bit about Paradise, about Dave the Jackal, about, you know, some of the network bones being refitted for a streaming present and streaming future. But as we've kind of read all these postmortem interviews with the likes of John Wells and Noah, who came on our show, which was so nice, and I please encourage everybody to check that interview out. It was a lovely man and it was just an incredible experience to talk to him. Some of the lessons that are coming out of the pit, whether or not they're replicable.

• 9:37Chris Ryan?

  Cause I'm always interested to know whether or not Hollywood is actually like nine to 15 months in front of everything and they're like, well, yeah, like we knew this was coming. So we've been planning for this. Or is, are people sitting at home and saying, I have a job as an executive at Hulu or an executive at Paramount Plus for now. And I see what happened with the pit and it, it makes me think this, right? It makes me wonder whether or not, um, I have a couple of ideas here, but I wanted to just sort of, do you think that the pit was such a significant moment where 10 million people per episode are watching? It's a 15 episode run.

• 10:15Andy Greenwald?

  And apparently grew week to week, week over week.

• 10:17Chris Ryan?

  I'm sure it did and I'm sure it's also gonna have like a pretty healthy re-watch and lifespan over the next couple of months and then it comes back in January. So I had a couple of things I wanted to bounce off of you and you tell me if it's gonna, it's gonna stick to the wall or like kind of slide off. But do you think we have hit some untapped interest in more episodes? For the longest time, we've, you know, been like, oh, it doesn't need to be this long. It's stretched too long. This is filler. This is filler. And I think that there are episodes of the pit that in terms of their intensity feel like filler, but don't feel that way in terms of their quality or in terms of their importance to the overall story. Are there, are there shows that we've watched recently that you could be like, oh, I would love a 15-episode run of?

• 11:02Andy Greenwald?

  You're asking me that cold, so I can't.

• 11:04Chris Ryan?

  I don't expect you to necessar- I think maybe, I don't mean it maybe like Dope Thief should be 22 episodes, but I-

• 11:09Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna stop you there. Dope Thief should have been four or five episodes, and I still like it, but yeah.

• 11:13Chris Ryan?

  Still, it's like, I think it's interesting to think about like, what shows have we been watching? What kinds of shows that we've been watching?

• 11:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that, well, there's a lot to unpack in what you were saying. One of the most important things that I think we have gotten away from, and not maybe for the reasons people expect, is that the beauty of this streaming moment is that series or seasons can be the shape that they ought to be. And I think in the earlier days of this brave new streaming world, we did see a lot of variance. There were some shows that probably in the beginning on HBO were still doing like 12 to 15 episode seasons, and then there were shorter seasons. In the last five, six years, eight has become very much the new normal. And eight can be perfect. Eight can also be frustrating.

• 11:59Andy Greenwald?

  And I think the reasons for eight increasingly are budgetary, not necessarily creative. Because shows simply cost too much.

• 12:10Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 12:10Andy Greenwald?

  Remember the rent is too damn high guy?

• 12:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Andy Greenwald?

  That guy would make a killing in Hollywood right now.

• 12:16Andy Greenwald?

  So I think that that has informed the episode order, and I think that people are starting to, audiences are starting to chafe against it. Even just anecdotally, when you see people responding to or speculating on upcoming TV shows, I've started to see people say like, "Oh, it'll probably be eight anyway." You know, regardless, because that just seems to be. And anytime people are assuming something, or getting, rolling their eyes at an assumed limit or expectation, that's definitely a problem. The first question you were asking, though, I think about like the developmental impact of the pit. I think it's also a two-part answer. I think the first part is the institutional and existential and structural changes that beget the pit started a while ago in order for the pit to exist.

• 12:59Andy Greenwald?

  And we are already starting to see the fruit of some of that, whether it's like multiple Law and Order spinoffs across NBC and Peacock, whether it's Pulse on Netflix, which I think neither of us have really engaged with.

• 13:08Chris Ryan?

  I watched the first one.

• 13:10Andy Greenwald?

  And that you-

• 13:10Chris Ryan?

  That was, that was good for me.

• 13:12Andy Greenwald?

  Got it.

• 13:14Andy Greenwald?

  So that started a while ago. This idea that, well, we've got to start to rein in costs, we've got to start to, you know, re-engage with audiences on a more- Regular calendar as opposed to just whenever creatives feel like it. So those things already started to, those things were already starting to take root when the strike happened, which is now two years ago. I think the difference is, as with everything creative, execution is everything. The pit not only delivered on the floor of its promise, 15 pretty entertaining episodes about a hospital, it far blew past any expected ceiling in that people love the show. And people love it on multiple levels.

• 13:55Andy Greenwald?

  They love it for the, again, no one, please earmuffs, the Crichton estate, the ER-ness of it, the week to week 90s of it, but they're also loving it for kind of prestigious reasons. Like this show actually has something to say about our healthcare system right now, or this show is surprising me with the way that it's conducting itself and conducting the story orchestra over this experience week to week, or introducing us to.

• 14:17Chris Ryan?

  Well, even the way Noah was talking about, like, when we asked him about, without getting into pit spoilers, about Collins and her.

• 14:26Andy Greenwald?

  What happens with her.

• 14:26Chris Ryan?

  What happens with her character. The sophistication with which he talked about that as a dramatic.

• 14:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, I think that's a great point.

• 14:33Chris Ryan?

  Turn rather than, you know, like, it wasn't it crazy that she didn't turn her phone on? It's like, no, this needed to happen because we needed to pull away this guy's support system.

• 14:43Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that, you know, as with anything successful, most people will take the wrong lessons from it. One of the lessons of the pit is John Wells really is the maestro of the ship, you know? Like, he knows how to do story and execute on story on a level that not many producers know how to do. This is a little inside baseball, but like, within the showrunner community, like, he is a god. Like, he does these very beloved and eagerly attended workshops for first time showrunners on like, okay, here's really what the job is. Here's how you do budgets. Here's how you communicate with your staff or your creative team. So he really is the Dr. Robbie of the TV game, and there aren't a lot of him.

• 15:28Andy Greenwald?

  But I think just in terms of what's happening on a today level, which means a 2027 level for what's going to be on television. I do think that the same people who maybe when shows like The Pit or Pulse were announced two years ago were rolling their eyes being like, oh, here comes, this is phase one of the great contraction, all of the things, you know, all of our grand plans for making this like the dynamic tourist medium of the whatever like that, that creative class of people and executive class of people are watching the show and it's the only show they really are liking and responding to. And that kind of story engagement with like, look what they, look what can be delivered upon. I think that's going to start to infiltrate all manner of shows.

• 16:13Andy Greenwald?

  It's not just the, the, boy, Casey looks really smart for asking them to do 15 and putting them into production and greenlighting the second season, whatever. The shareholders are thrilled about that and I think audience members and Mac subscribers are thrilled about that. But I think, and I was sort of touching on this with my optimism, my weird optimism last week.

• 16:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that, this is why, this is what made me think of this topic in the first place.

• 16:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I just genuinely, when you talk to people at like the hip or cool or streamers or studios or whatever, like producers, they're watching The Pit too, and it's reminding them of why they like TV.

• 16:43Chris Ryan?

  The streamers where they were all at Clara over the weekend.

• 16:46Andy Greenwald?

  The cool, yeah.

• 16:47Chris Ryan?

  Those streamers.

• 16:48Andy Greenwald?

  And then they just drove straight to Salt Lake City for the AOC rally.

• 16:51Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 16:51Andy Greenwald?

  There's a lot of crossover. Anyway, yeah, I, I think that what's fascinating about The Pit and why we're still talking about it on Monday is that there is a industry story and then there is a creative artistic story.

• 17:05Chris Ryan?

  I would like to throw one more thing at you. This is sort of paraphrasing a thing I saw online. I can't remember. It was like, kind of like happening either on Reddit or on Twitter, but people were talking about the way The Pit put an emphasis on work.

• 17:22Chris Ryan?

  And the depth of drama that you could take out of a workplace. Whereas a lot of shows are like, well, it's about these people, but we're just as interested in their home life. And I was kind of thinking about this on how you could have applied this to Lioness or so many different shows. Where my interest in the pit was only deepened by the amount of minutia we got to see these people perform. Aside from reacting to a mass casualty event or performing surgery in a way that like was risky or that was rare. I was like, I'm deeply into knowing how Whitaker has to go exchange his scrubs, you know, and what it takes.

• 18:06Chris Ryan?

  You have to have a pair to go in so that you could get a pair out and everything like that. And I think a lot of shows could really stand to dive deeper rather than go wider.

• 18:17Andy Greenwald?

  This is a smart observation, I think.

• 18:19Chris Ryan?

  I'm trying to think of like an accurate, I'm trying to think of a specific show that I'm like, I wish this show would go further into it. Because every show is different and obviously I think the pit's compression led to that. You know, if you have, the pit takes place over three days of a weekend and they go home and come back. You might go to the bar with Robbie, you might take the train with Santos or whatever. But if you have to keep them there, then that's, you know, that's going to have like, inevitably there's going to be a trickle down effect where you're like, oh, now I know every hallway, now I know every nook and cranny, I know what, how the day has accumulated on Dana. But I think a lot of shows could stand to focus and go, and go burrow deeper into this.

• 19:02Andy Greenwald?

  I think broadly, I think it's a really good observation because too often the, well, let's find out what really makes them tick is just kind of, at this point, it's lazy. It's like, let's, we can humanize the person by showing them another part of their lives or another facet of their personality. And we can thus, you know, justify, explain, or as we were saying in the case of Your Friends and Neighbors, a show I like. So I don't mean to use it as a straw man argument, but the introduction of the Jon Hamm character's sister feels like. There's enough there and yet it and so you'd notice it as a you see the story spackle or the emotional work that it's doing and not necessarily and it's at least through one episode or two episodes, it felt like it was kind of diminishing my enjoyment of the main story, which was enough.

• 19:45Andy Greenwald?

  I think the the argument you would get into is how many workplaces are as dramatically compelling.

• 19:52Chris Ryan?

  Spotify.

• 19:52Andy Greenwald?

  And that thousand percent every day I come in, I'm like, wait, I can't walk here anymore. Oh, there's popcorn today. I can't wait to have snacks Thursday and there's nothing. But also with the constant influx influx of new characters and new situations and new dynamics, like I'll turn it back to you. Taylor Sheridan has a formula that works.

• 20:15Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:15Andy Greenwald?

  Let's all accept that. Moving on.

• 20:17Chris Ryan?

  See, this is the kind of reaching across the aisle that we need to do.

• 20:21Andy Greenwald?

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. That's why I call upon you and my good friend Cash Patel at the FBI to put a stop to this. Would Lioness be better or would it be frankly intolerable if we never went home to Dr. Dave Anabel and the handsome, you know, handsome husband doctor and that whole part of her life?

• 20:45Chris Ryan?

  I think one of the things that makes him so unique, Taylor Sheridan, is that I whether or not it's real or not, the no notes feeling that his shows have and he does things where you're like, this is actually quite poor, but I can tell no one stepped in and said, you know, this plotline needs to connect to this plotline at some point. And he's just like, no, they don't. This is just me going and painting in green up here and then painting in blue down here. And I kind of like that he gets to do that. And obviously I have a interest in a lot of the subject matter that he writes about, but I I don't know what the sort of home life of Joe gives us in Lioness.

• 21:27Andy Greenwald?

  There's Zoe Saldani.

• 21:28Chris Ryan?

  Whereas like if you just spent more time explaining, interrogating, going deeper, telling me more about what she does on a day to day basis when she's not taking part in single person coups of countries.

• 21:45Andy Greenwald?

  Single per, single use.

• 21:46Chris Ryan?

  Well, she's like, I'm going. And then it's like, all right, well, we'll go with you. But like, for a second there, it's like, I think she's going to a ramp by herself.

• 21:53Andy Greenwald?

  Kind of reminds me of your relationship to Cinnabon on 95 in the old days.

• 21:59Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I'm getting gas. You'd be like, I'm going in. Like, okay, I guess I'm going in too. I could, I could stop at Roy Rogers.

• 22:04Chris Ryan?

  Oh, my god.

• 22:05Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, yeah. And by the way, I don't disagree with your point. I mean, I, I think that one of the things, like, generally, when you look at TV development, there are things that happen all the time. And it's not like a bad faith thing. It's just like, how can I make this vessel that I'm trying to write into a pilot as load-bearing as possible? Can I, how many different types of stories can I put into it? How many different looks or angles or potential audience members can I open it up to? And the more successful development processes narrow it down to be like, well, what do you want the show to be about? And what's the best version of it? All of that said, one of the reasons that we genuinely love art, whether it's paintings or it's Landman.

• 22:41Chris Ryan?

  I love paintings.

• 22:42Andy Greenwald?

  Is, paintings. Is, okay, someone else, a distinct consciousness from mine, with it, with his or her own unique point of view, is sharing his or her soul via his or hers curiosity and interest.

• 22:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Andy Greenwald?

  I like looking this way at something.

• 22:59Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 22:59Andy Greenwald?

  Right? And so that's true for Taylor Sheridan, who is as interested in the oil rights in Texas as he is in elders going to strip clubs.

• 23:07Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:08Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, as it is with the coastal Taylor Sheridan, Mike White, and what he did with season three of The White Lotus, right? When, and that is one of the same reasons why I was like, oh, that's what he's, that's what he's interested in.

• 23:20Chris Ryan?

  On vacation, it's just felt a disturbance in the forest. Like, I just feel like I just got insulted.

• 23:28Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think he's gonna clap back?

• 23:29Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 23:30Andy Greenwald?

  Um, no, but, but, but that, that is 100% true. But I also think that, and this is to its credit, like, the pit is a different machine. It's designed differently. It's collaborative. You know, it's, it's, I was just trying to like ascribe some sort of authorial voice to John Wells, but that's not exactly it. Um, John Wells is the project manager, essentially. He's the Billy Bob Thornton of that show. And there are a lot of people creatively giving their all to it collectively for the pursuit of, it just.

• 24:00Andy Greenwald?

  It's interesting because it becomes, um, it's like the best shows are a very healthy marriage between creativity, soul, art, and design. And you can't really short shrift one side or the other. And when they work in concert, you don't really notice it.

• 24:15Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 24:15Andy Greenwald?

  And the pit is so expertly designed as a vessel, and then they filled it so beautifully. And I, I think that that is repeatable.

• 24:24Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:25Andy Greenwald?

  Um, but it is not like plug and play. It is not like now we do 15 episodes of Cops.

• 24:30Chris Ryan?

  No, I don't think it's easy to turn around. I just think that there were a couple of things about it that I thought were worth keeping talking about. I wanted to ask you briefly before we get into Last of Us, though. Cause for, I think the last couple of episodes, we've been like, oh, let's talk about some of the movie trailers that came out recently. I don't know, like, has it, you have not really done the movies this year.

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  Like, gone to them?

• 24:48Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 24:48Andy Greenwald?

  I haven't even seen Minecraft, thank.

• 24:50Chris Ryan?

  Did you see Black Bag yet?

• 24:51Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, no.

• 24:52Chris Ryan?

  You will love Black Bag so much.

• 24:54Andy Greenwald?

  I really want to see Black Bag. But we talked about that. I like had a free night. I was like, maybe I'll go see Black Bag. And you were like, my brother, I will be enjoying the, the, uh, on-demand services of this film. You said like you.

• 25:04Chris Ryan?

  Well, I had to see it. I was gonna watch it with my mom. Yeah.

• 25:07Andy Greenwald?

  You were trying to make me feel bad. I wasn't like, Chris killed cinema.

• 25:11Chris Ryan?

  I do feel bad. It's like, I, I stand by, I'm like Steven Soderbergh's like number one guy.

• 25:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Chris Ryan?

  Uh, he doesn't know it, but I am.

• 25:19Andy Greenwald?

  I think he probably knows. He had a little prickled on the back of his neck and he's like, someone liked me too much.

• 25:23Chris Ryan?

  Um, I saw Presence in the movie theater.

• 25:25Andy Greenwald?

  How was that?

• 25:26Chris Ryan?

  That was great.

• 25:26Andy Greenwald?

  Good.

• 25:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I've seen two Steven Soderbergh movies this year. One in the theater, one, one at home.

• 25:30Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, you don't have to prove yourself to me.

• 25:32Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 25:32Andy Greenwald?

  I'm your friend.

• 25:33Chris Ryan?

  You would like it. What of the stuff that's come out? So we've got Mission Impossible, Final Reckoning, The Phoenician Scheme. Well, uh, I mean, Eddington trailer came out today. I don't know if you watched that.

• 25:43Andy Greenwald?

  You got a big aster head over here.

• 25:45Chris Ryan?

  Are you, are you, are you pumped for Sinners?

• 25:48Andy Greenwald?

  Uh. I'm curious about Sinners. Where are we at with it?

• 25:51Chris Ryan?

  I'm very excited for it, but I'm, I'm that type of guy.

• 25:54Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, the overlaps between Sinners and From Dust Till Dawn seem very evident.

• 25:58Chris Ryan?

  I, that's. You're not dissuading me at all. Yeah.

• 26:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, my only bump was that he's twins in it.

• 26:04Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 26:04Andy Greenwald?

  Do you like twin performances?

• 26:05Chris Ryan?

  No, are you fucking kidding me?

• 26:07Andy Greenwald?

  You love twin performances.

• 26:09Chris Ryan?

  Are you kidding me?

• 26:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, all right.

• 26:10Chris Ryan?

  Are you, no, are you being serious right now?

• 26:12Andy Greenwald?

  I know, I know you, I, I, I'm more out on it than you.

• 26:16Chris Ryan?

  Are you trolling me?

• 26:17Andy Greenwald?

  No!

• 26:18Chris Ryan?

  You know I could barely watch The Deuce. You know I hate twins.

• 26:21Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right, I forgot. I thought you were about to say like, ah, the Tom Hardy as the Crays.

• 26:25Chris Ryan?

  No, it's not. I, I, I find it to be one of the most disorienting and least believable. Yeah. I liked The Deuce, you know, like, I tell people I did, but...

• 26:37Chris Ryan?

  Sorry.

• 26:38Andy Greenwald?

  Radical honesty. Okay.

• 26:40Chris Ryan?

  I hate twins. Not in real life. I don't really know any, but...

• 26:44Andy Greenwald?

  Well, self-selecting.

• 26:46Chris Ryan?

  I do not like it when actors are like, "And then I'm gonna play my own twin."

• 26:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think it's a little bit indulgent.

• 26:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Andy Greenwald?

  But in this case, you're okay with it?

• 26:54Chris Ryan?

  Uh, well, I like vampires. So, yeah.

• 26:57Andy Greenwald?

  I would like to see your big board. Do you know what I mean? Like, what are you, what are you looking for most in a movie? And what can, what traits cancel each other out?

• 27:05Chris Ryan?

  I like Josh, Josh Allen's fiancés, whoever they are.

• 27:09Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 27:09Chris Ryan?

  You know, um, no, I just, I, I think Michael B. Jordan, playing twins aside, Coogler back, shooting on film, shooting like a violent genre movie with Jack O'Connell and Michael B. Jordan. It's exciting.

• 27:23Andy Greenwald?

  So, so for you, the twins aspect of Sinners is like an offensive lineman prospect being undersized, but the Coogler vampire part is coached, it's coached outline.

• 27:33Chris Ryan?

  We can get the twins into our system and develop them.

• 27:36Andy Greenwald?

  You can develop, that's what I'm saying.

• 27:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:39Andy Greenwald?

  I am, yeah, I'm excited for the movie for, I, I think, I've come around. I think I'm excited for the movie because, I mean, I do like Michael B. Jordan, as much of him as we can get. I like Ryan Coogler. I also like that they were, every so often, one of these filmmakers has to be like, "No, no, I'm just gonna make a movie I wanna make."

• 27:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Andy Greenwald?

  I respect that, and I support that. Do I sound like Sean Fantasy has a small gun to the back of my head as I'm saying that? And I will see it in the theater. My enthusiasm for Sinners pales in comparison to my outrageous glee at the prospect of the new Mission Impossible movie.

• 28:13Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about it. Let's talk about your relationship to Ethan Hunt.

• 28:16Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, first of all... One thing about all the trailers, whether it's Mission Impossible, whether it's Venetian Scheme, or one battle after another, is like, movie theaters really are now country only for old men, like, in terms of who can make movies and who's in these movies. So I do feel rewarded by that. My first takeaway from this Mission Impossible trailer was just all the old dudes, the best ones are in it. Shay Wiggum, Nick Offerman, Holt McElhenney, and also my guy from Prior Patch, Charles Parnell, just like, all the old heads, just backing up Ethan. And Ethan, by the way, is in his 60s, jumping out of planes. I love these movies so deeply, and so uncomplicatedly.

• 28:59Chris Ryan?

  What's your favorite one?

• 29:00Andy Greenwald?

  Well, we've been talking about this off-air. Like, I think I need to do a re-watch just because I like them, but also now, apparently, they were all deeply serialized.

• 29:07Chris Ryan?

  Well, yeah, apparently, like, there's all this stuff that's canon.

• 29:10Andy Greenwald?

  Which is...

• 29:11Chris Ryan?

  And they're like, so... Of course, you remember the Kremlin exploding. It's just like, uh...

• 29:15Andy Greenwald?

  The beauty of these movies, and this is also why I'm excited, like, it could all go to shit, because the beauty of these movies, literally, are Ethan Hunt blew up the Kremlin, and then there was another movie. Like, if you actually were tallying this in reality, I think it would, you know, it pushes the envelope a little bit. And now it's like, ah, the knife he's holding now is the knife he dropped in Brian De Palma's 1996 Mission Impossible? Sure. I mean, that is a writer challenge par excellence. That Christopher McQuory was like, now I have to make sense of this, now that I'm drawing it to a close. I'm curious to see how he did it. I also, and I cannot stress this enough, do not give a shit about, like, continuity here. I think it's just super expensive, dumb, exciting,

• 30:00Andy Greenwald?

  fun, with good actors.

• 30:02Chris Ryan?

  My attitude about it is, one is the best.

• 30:04Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 30:06Chris Ryan?

  I don't know that it's that close.

• 30:08Andy Greenwald?

  No, I mean, one-

• 30:09Chris Ryan?

  It's the best film. Like, it is, if they had never made another one, it would still be a classic. I find three to be the most emotionally engaging, I guess. Uh, that's Hoffman.

• 30:23Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, don't talk to me like I just got here. I know.

• 30:26Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 30:26Andy Greenwald?

  I know which one it is. The rabbit's foot.

• 30:28Chris Ryan?

  I think Fallout is my favorite to watch.

• 30:31Andy Greenwald?

  And that's I was about to say Fallout. I thought Fallout was the one where I was like, oh, okay, we're

• 30:37Chris Ryan?

  We're throwing helicopters at each other.

• 30:38Andy Greenwald?

  We're just having, we're having a laugh here in the best possible, let's see it in the movies kind of way.

• 30:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Andy Greenwald?

  I found three. I have to re-watch three. I think three had the, obviously the best villain performance and an attempt to graft some sort of emotional reality onto a movie that didn't necessarily want it or need it. But I think that it, I remember being kind of frustrated with that one, actually at the time. But nobody talks about two, right?

• 30:59Chris Ryan?

  It's very JJ five.

• 30:59Andy Greenwald?

  Two's the worst.

• 31:00Chris Ryan?

  It's the, the JJ stuff is very heavy in that.

• 31:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's like the, oh, the rabbit's foot.

• 31:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but like it's rather than, I feel like they, they like really take a highlighter and they're like, this is a MacGuffin, you know, so it's, it's very complicated.

• 31:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. For, for podcasts.

• 31:14Chris Ryan?

  There's also a lot of like, I have a bomb inside of my eyeball stuff. I don't really understand.

• 31:19Andy Greenwald?

  Is that how you felt yesterday, watching the end of The Masters?

• 31:23Chris Ryan?

  And then I realized I had put a zen in while I still had a zen in.

• 31:26Andy Greenwald?

  Too far in.

• 31:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Andy Greenwald?

  Um, Ghost Pro was the one where they tried to erase Jeremy Renner from history in real time, right?

• 31:34Chris Ryan?

  Well, he had been brought on for Rogue, or no?

• 31:39Andy Greenwald?

  A Rogue Nation?

• 31:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:40Andy Greenwald?

  No, I think he's in the Brad Bird one to take over the mantle.

• 31:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and then

• 31:44Andy Greenwald?

  That's Ghost Pro, all right?

• 31:45Chris Ryan?

  I think he comes back.

• 31:46Andy Greenwald?

  He comes back, but then there's like, they're like

• 31:48Chris Ryan?

  He's decidedly absent from the final reckoning trailer.

• 31:51Andy Greenwald?

  Special Agent Renner. Well, yes, we've prepared a cuck chair for you. Please sit in on our meeting in the, in his second appearance.

• 31:58Chris Ryan?

  Um, all right.

• 31:59Andy Greenwald?

  We're gonna do more about that movie. I love it. I need to check in with you because one of my favorite long, slow play developments was just your, your flowering as a true Wes head.

• 32:09Chris Ryan?

  Uh, it's, it's

• 32:10Andy Greenwald?

  It's not a secret.

• 32:11Chris Ryan?

  No, I know.

• 32:12Andy Greenwald?

  It's not like your twin thing.

• 32:13Chris Ryan?

  It's almost harvest time.

• 32:14Andy Greenwald?

  So I want to know your cinephile Wes Anderson take on Phineas and the Stone.

• 32:18Chris Ryan?

  It's one of my least complicated artistic relationships. He doesn't make bad movies. They get better and better every time you watch them.

• 32:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 32:26Chris Ryan?

  I love them very deeply. I find every frame to be something worth diving into. I think I've I just have like this like very special feeling about him and this this movie. It doesn't even matter what the trailers are. The trailers are incredible. This one looks amazing.

• 32:42Andy Greenwald?

  It really does.

• 32:43Chris Ryan?

  I can't wait to see Michael Sarah in the Wes Anderson ensemble. But it it it's kind of like he could have shot like a shoebox for two minutes and I would be like, I'm sure this film would be great, you know?

• 32:53Andy Greenwald?

  The trailer made me really happy.

• 32:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

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• 34:37Chris Ryan?

  We should talk about The Last of Us.

• 34:39Andy Greenwald?

  We put it off long enough.

• 34:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 34:43Chris Ryan?

  Should we reset where we were or are broadly on this project? Or do you think part of the issue is that there's been enough of a gap between one and two that your feelings may have changed? That you're, did the, did the weight make you anticipate this more? Make you dread it more? Make you feel like, I don't remember what happened in the first season? Like, are you just kinda like?

• 35:05Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 35:06Chris Ryan?

  Talk to me.

• 35:07Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I, I feel the same level of kind of like,

• 35:13Andy Greenwald?

  not to use a cancer analogy, but like benign positivity.

• 35:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, that I have felt about the show from the beginning.

• 35:21Andy Greenwald?

  Let me, let me do a small detour. It's a, you know, it's a special, it's a religious time of year for many people. I attended a Seder last night.

• 35:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:28Andy Greenwald?

  Shout out to Sarah and Daniel who hosted it. I know, I learned last night that Daniel only listens to us when he's at the gym. So I wonder if that creates some kind of like Pavlovian response when he hears my voice? Is it just like, reach for a creatine shake? Is it like, I don't think I have that effect on most people.

• 35:45Andy Greenwald?

  But, uh, there's a conversation about the, I won't call it delicacy, but the traditional Jewish food gefilte fish. Which some people like for nostalgia reasons and most people think is kinda gross.

• 35:56Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 35:58Andy Greenwald?

  And then people were talking like, oh, I wonder if, you know, what would a chef-y version of gefilte fish be like? Oh, you could kind of, you could steam them like little fish dumplings. You could bring in some like Vietnamese flavor profiles. And I'm like, that sounds wonderful. But also it's, it's still gefilte fish, basically, right? And my feeling about Last of Us is that this is the chef-y-est, most thoughtful, most considered, in some ways smartest, and in some ways, at least in terms of like chain of command, not smartest zombie shows, ever.

• 36:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Andy Greenwald?

  And if you are a fan of zombie shows generally, like if you are a fan of gefilte fish, you'll like all versions of it. Cause it, it, it's satisfying those certain cravings.

• 36:37Chris Ryan?

  I think that's true.

• 36:38Andy Greenwald?

  I think that I am not a big zombie person. I know I'm not a big dystopian apocalyptic into the world person. So my relationship to the show is not beginning from the baseline, well, I like the way this tastes, no matter who's preparing it, place that I think some of the show's fans have. Whether they played the video game or whether they just like this type of story. When I'm watching it, it is a much more like up, like the mountains that frame the town. A little more jagged and up and down.

• 37:07Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:08Andy Greenwald?

  Like Catherine O'Hara shows up, just like Melanie Linsky showed up in season one, right? And I'm like, oh shit, this is in a seriousness of purpose. This is a surprise. This is a zag. I love this scene. This is really interesting and compelling. And then inevitably, because it's a zombie show, Ellie will be in one on one combat with a suddenly smart zombie.

• 37:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Andy Greenwald?

  And I like that less.

• 37:31Chris Ryan?

  So you almost like the bench more than the starters.

• 37:34Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa, I like that.

• 37:36Chris Ryan?

  I, I, I found this one.

• 37:38Andy Greenwald?

  I have other positive things to say as well as some criticisms, but that's kind of setting the, setting the thermostat for where I'm at.

• 37:43Chris Ryan?

  This is a very particular show because obviously it is based on a piece of IP that people are very familiar with. It's such a hugely popular video game.

• 37:53Andy Greenwald?

  Although not us, right? Like we don't have any.

• 37:54Chris Ryan?

  Not us, but I will say that even the discourse around casting around like what's going to happen on this season. Even people who are trying to kind of be like, you know, you may not be spoiler friendly. I don't think are doing that great of a job of it, you know? I, I have a feeling about certain things.

• 38:14Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:16Chris Ryan?

  I found it like, it took me a minute to kind of get back into the rhythm of this. Not only because, I mean, I, I really like this show, but it was actually just because of that very modern sensation of this show has not been on for several years. I did not have the time to re-watch the first season. So the first 15 minutes, I'm like, am I supposed to know who Catherine O'Hara's husband is? Am I supposed to know?

• 38:41Andy Greenwald?

  I had that, yeah.

• 38:42Chris Ryan?

  Who, like, did, did he tell her in the intervening years? And is that why she's mad at him? Like, I think that there was a degree to which Craig Mason, who wrote and directed this episode, and then is obviously the creator of this, co-creator of this show.

• 38:55Andy Greenwald?

  The showrunner.

• 38:56Chris Ryan?

  Is, I, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about mystery and suspense within a world like this because there's the mystery and suspense inherent in when you're making a genre show anyway. But then there is like, kind of needlessly confusing the audience or creating mystery and suspense just to prolong a plotline.

• 39:15Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:16Chris Ryan?

  We were just chatting with Van outside as we were walking into the studio.

• 39:20Andy Greenwald?

  This is a compelling workplace.

• 39:21Chris Ryan?

  And I felt like Van and I were talking about like, you know.

• 39:26Chris Ryan?

  What, why, like, would, is there another choice? Is it anything other than a dramatic choice for Pedro Pascal's character?

• 39:35Andy Greenwald?

  To have.

• 39:35Chris Ryan?

  To have just not told Ellie, like, look, they were gonna operate on you and kill you in the process, so I saved her life. And you can be mad at me for how I went about doing that, but that's the truth. Now, I understand, like, everybody's got their secrets and you know, you wanna protect a young person, but then a young person becomes an adult and then they're angry for reasons they don't understand. But I found there to be a little bit of a, like, 15-minute, kind of like, and this is who and what, like, this is what. But then I got into the rhythm of it and I, I find it's made on such a high level across the board that I got over my kind of like, murkiness about it.

• 40:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, let me say, just off the bat, I love how expensive the show looks. I love the vistas. I love the mountains and the snow and the texture and the production design and Pedro Pascal's grizzled face in the midst of it. Like, I, I was very happy, actually, to be safely in the arms of a show that cares this much about spending money in the right places and what it looks like and how it presents itself. Like, that was, that was a nice feeling and I enjoyed the textures of it. I, I should also say that the first note that I took in watching the show was, I've got a fever for some Dever.

• 40:48Chris Ryan?

  She's incredible.

• 40:49Andy Greenwald?

  I was so excited, like, she's just like, okay, here we go. She's just an electric performer.

• 40:52Chris Ryan?

  She really is.

• 40:53Andy Greenwald?

  And I was psyched to see her on screen. Just the moment when she holds the other dude's gaze, when he's like, she's ready to go and he's like, I'll go with you, but we have to do these other things and, awesome, very excited for that.

• 41:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we're seeing slowly, it was like, hell yeah.

• 41:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that's, that, that is great drama and a great performance. And again, when you're operating on this level, when you have a, a writer and creator of this magnitude and then someone who is also interested in creative casting to the degree that he is, and I think that a lot of our experiences liking or disliking or even loving genre shows over the last few years, casting is the sneaky element to it, to keep people surprised, keep people engaged, have people lean in even when the materials feel slightly familiar.

• 41:36Andy Greenwald?

  Super into that.

• 41:39Andy Greenwald?

  It's interesting that you bring up the secret, because I sort of, I agree with-

• 41:44Chris Ryan?

  The secret between-

• 41:45Andy Greenwald?

  That Joel has not talked about what happened-

• 41:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Andy Greenwald?

  -in the finale, and-

• 41:48Chris Ryan?

  But Ellie seems to now intuit it, because she's, that's what maybe is supposed to be why she's so pissed at him all the time.

• 41:55Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think that question, I like, so, on a, this is kind of frustrating, because it's a, there, what mysteries get revealed, what mysteries get, gets held back? That can often be a frustrating back and forth between an audience and a show, and I'm very sympathetic to that. In this case, the reason why I'm okay with it is, if you extrapolate out, it's not just that he doesn't want to tell her about the terrible things that he did, right? It's the equation that he personally solved for, which is, to him-

• 42:26Chris Ryan?

  She's worth more than humanity.

• 42:28Andy Greenwald?

  She's worth more than humanity. The, the, the weight of that choice is what's slowly crushing him, and the inevitable outcry or moral rebalancing act that might happen with everyone else is looming or lurking. So I'm sort of sympathetic to that. But if you can, it always works for me if you can put it back into a, a character level. And the thing that I was most interested in on a thematic level through the episode was the idea that, well, it's not an idea. It, it is a dangerous path to go down as a parent if you blatantly need something from your child, as much as they need something from you. That is an unfair attempt to balance something, right?

• 43:12Andy Greenwald?

  Like, it really is a one-way street.

• 43:14Chris Ryan?

  I feel like I need you to win the Masters. That's not fair.

• 43:17Andy Greenwald?

  Well, to who? And how much money do you have on it? But, but in terms of, like, like, the weight of that relationship, and one of the things that I can just sort of intuit from a storytelling perspective that Ellie is chafing against, is that Joel looks at her all the time. Like, I did this for you.

• 43:32Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 43:33Andy Greenwald?

  You are worth it. You have to be worth it. I did it all for you. I lived my life every day, closed up like this, and still suffering because of you. And she's like, I didn't ask you to do that. That's, you know, and she might not know specifically what he did, but, and that's echoed when he punches the guy that makes the homophobic remark at the, at the dance.

• 43:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Andy Greenwald?

  And he just looks at her like-

• 43:54Chris Ryan?

  That, aren't you happy that I did that?

• 43:55Andy Greenwald?

  Thank me. Like- The show is worth, just let me just throw the biggest tent possible and say like, this show is worthwhile because it is still curious about relationships like that, even within the larger framework. And that's, to me, is always the sign, in addition to the casting, like, oh, there's someone thinking in there. There's something alive in there. That's compelling. So if you fold that, that character thing into The Secret, I'm like, okay, I buy it.

• 44:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:21Andy Greenwald?

  I don't buy it if it's just to keep the trains moving on time to get from Jackson to Seattle and back again, or whatever, wherever the show is headed.

• 44:29Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 44:31Andy Greenwald?

  The bigger thing that I'm curious your take on was, you know, I'm on record, you can search back in Spotify to like my opinions about the first season. The most compelling thing outside of the dressing, the casting, the locations, the intensity, whatever, about the first season was that, for example, unlike Walking Dead, there was a hope trajectory. There was the sense that this girl can save the world.

• 45:00Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 45:00Andy Greenwald?

  Can end the virus. With that answered, potentially, you know, that storyline being answered somewhat definitively, that like, well, now there are no more scientists who are aware of this, who will, or could extract this, you know, it begins to feel more like a traditional, we're barricaded in here and everything's fine for now.

• 45:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Andy Greenwald?

  And some of the momentum that I think even newbies could sort of wrap their minds around is gone. Now, this was the first episode of a second season. It's been renewed for a third. There's clearly more story.

• 45:35Chris Ryan?

  There might be a fourth. I think also we know, based on, you know, the first season, that Mazen is doing these, like, you know, he had the Nick Offerman, Murray Bartlett episode. I don't know that we'll see another kind of standalone episode like that, but I've only seen the first one. I'm watching week to week like everybody else. I think that. So what's your question?

• 45:57Andy Greenwald?

  Well, my question is, did you feel a shift in momentum or purpose or destination?

• 46:05Chris Ryan?

  No, I felt like by the end of the episode, like, they're surrounded. You know, you've got an evolving species of cordyceps out there who are like now doing things like baiting and luring. You've got Abby on the hillside looking down on the town and obviously not there to make nice. And their sewage line is full of burgeoning, like vines or like the vines are moving in the sewer there.

• 46:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Chris Ryan?

  So they got a lot of fucking problems. And, you know, like, I think the idea that five years have gone by and they've kind of lulled themselves into sleep. I mean, an ordinary show or maybe a Walking Dead type of show would have been, we would be on season six now. And now we would be getting another threat, but the first five years would be like setting up this town. I, you know, like, the evil within, the calcification of empathy with the refugee story. Real world issues about like housing and infrastructure and the labor pool. Like, I personally, I'm like, ready for like Abby to come in and kick some ass. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit more like, let's move, let's get chunk plays on Last of Us.

• 47:11Chris Ryan?

  And not like, let's just get three yards and think about how would we power the dam here or whatever.

• 47:17Andy Greenwald?

  Does that make you more like Kevin Patullo? In terms of the offensive?

• 47:20Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 47:21Andy Greenwald?

  We don't know. That's, that's next season.

• 47:22Chris Ryan?

  Deep cut for the three people out there who know the new Eagles offensive coordinator.

• 47:26Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes I feel like Shiel Kapadia podcasts for me. So I feel like I need to do it just for him.

• 47:31Chris Ryan?

  Would you go to therapy in this situation?

• 47:34Andy Greenwald?

  I'll go to therapy right now. What are you talking about? Let's do it.

• 47:36Chris Ryan?

  Would you, would you miss therapy if you were forced to survive, uh, like an apocalypse?

• 47:43Andy Greenwald?

  Would you mean miss it like miss an appointment and reschedule?

• 47:45Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, like, would you be like, I really would be able, I could really go for like 45 minutes of straight talk express.

• 47:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. What are you talking about? Do you know? Do you, like, do you know how many times I hit that vein? When COVID was coming? I was like, hey, just, just leaving another voicemail. Just thought we could chat. I feel like you're probably home.

• 48:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, what do you think I'm gonna go on patrol?

• 48:13Andy Greenwald?

  This is like, this is like what I didn't know you're feeling about twins.

• 48:15Chris Ryan?

  Do you think, uh?

• 48:17Andy Greenwald?

  Do I think therapy could be improved by whiskey? Uh, no.

• 48:20Chris Ryan?

  Right. Well, I, I am out, Meyer, if you're Gail and you've got the monopoly on the mental health business in that town, you can just do whatever you want.

• 48:28Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that Gail and Doctor, whatever her name was, in paradise could trade stories about being the only therapist surviving an apocalypse? I do feel like there should be a conference with just the two of them in it.

• 48:41Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so the thing that Van was bringing up to us, the, the convention that I was struggling with more that's present in this episode is the...

• 48:49Chris Ryan?

  Ellie not following any rules.

• 48:50Andy Greenwald?

  Any rules at all.

• 48:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:52Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I get it.

• 48:53Chris Ryan?

  But also being like Chuck Norris, so they're like, well, we have to send her.

• 48:57Andy Greenwald?

  Cause she's so good at this?

• 48:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, I feel like, and I don't wanna speak out of turn, and I, and I, I'm sure she brings a lot of other attributes to the Jackson community, but I, I have to say, I don't think Kat is a natural leader. You know?

• 49:10Chris Ryan?

  Kat was the one who was like, you guys don't go in there, alright, you can go in there?

• 49:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that one, yeah.

• 49:16Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? Like, I think there's some people who are...

• 49:19Chris Ryan?

  I think the idea is that they've been doing these patrols for a few years now, and they've gotten, they've racked up so many kills. And Dina and Ellie kind of now have come of age at a time where they're just wasting these things, and so...

• 49:31Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. I mean, that, that is present in the way they're like, let's, let's go stub them in the neck and have fun, like that, okay. I just feel like, in terms of Kat...

• 49:38Chris Ryan?

  Well, Ellie also knows she, she can't be, she can't be got.

• 49:40Andy Greenwald?

  She feels confident, but I, there's still a little doubt, right?

• 49:44Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, she's like doing self-search. She's like, she's like cutting the, the...

• 49:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 49:49Chris Ryan?

  The poison out, you know?

• 49:49Andy Greenwald?

  But there's people out there who are just like, I don't think I'm gonna get COVID. You know what I mean? They're like, I'm probably good. Like, I, maybe, maybe I'm immune a little bit. I feel like you, you were feeling that a little bit.

• 49:59Chris Ryan?

  No, I've gotten it.

• 50:00Andy Greenwald?

  No, now you have, but like, you went a little, you went, you ran the tape a little longer than most.

• 50:04Chris Ryan?

  I did, and I also, like, now in retrospect, probably had like a saline solution as my first shot, cause I got J and J real early.

• 50:14Andy Greenwald?

  Just like, here you go. What, what, what?

• 50:17Chris Ryan?

  Just wear the mask, I was like, I'm free!

• 50:20Andy Greenwald?

  What is Trump saying as True Social? Have fun!

• 50:22Chris Ryan?

  Be cool. Here you go.

• 50:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, um, no, I just feel like in terms of Kat, there's peace time leaders and there's war time leaders. You know, and she's a little, she might not be built for these times.

• 50:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:35Andy Greenwald?

  That said, on that patrol, I do think Mushroom Zombies versus Bear is the show's sweet spot.

• 50:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I think, like, okay, let's, let's, let's push that a little bit more. That's fun.

• 50:46Chris Ryan?

  Do you do any, like, when Abby comes, when, when Caitlin Dever's Abby character is introduced, do you, do you look?

• 50:53Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 50:53Chris Ryan?

  Online? Okay, good.

• 50:54Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, because I actually know too much and people are like, the controversial introduction. I don't want to know anything about that.

• 51:02Chris Ryan?

  That's very sweet of you.

• 51:03Andy Greenwald?

  There's nothing, no, I'm too busy Googling Andy Greenwald White Lotus opinions WTF.

• 51:09Andy Greenwald?

  So clearly I don't have time. By the way, I love it. In this podcast, you've done, you've, you've staked out two opinions. One, stop looking at things online. And then 10 minutes later, you were like-

• 51:19Chris Ryan?

  Stop looking at people talking about you online. It's a very healthy-

• 51:22Andy Greenwald?

  I'm so guilty, just because I used to like to go on the CR Heads page and be like, here's some other people who also like my friend Chris. Little did I know, there was a villain in the story. And he's sitting right across from you.

• 51:36Chris Ryan?

  Who, me?

• 51:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm your villain.

• 51:38Chris Ryan?

  Oh, no, no.

• 51:40Andy Greenwald?

  I'm your Abby? A compelling actor who unfortunately has been wedged into the story?

• 51:45Chris Ryan?

  Did you, Isabel Merced?

• 51:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Were you familiar with her?

• 51:50Chris Ryan?

  I saw her in a rom-com on Netflix about Christmas, and I can't remember, it's, it's not like, it's like basically Home for the Holidays. I can't remember the actual title, but it's, it's quite charming.

• 52:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, she's, she's, she's got charisma for days.

• 52:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, she's, she's very charismatic. Danny Ramirez, I'm excited to see what he brings to the table from Top Gun Maverick.

• 52:13Andy Greenwald?

  Danny Ramirez and also the Filson catalog, like, that guy really-

• 52:18Chris Ryan?

  He's fucking Anthony Mackie's sidekick.

• 52:21Andy Greenwald?

  No, I know.

• 52:21Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:22Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm just saying, like, he looks amazing on the show.

• 52:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Andy Greenwald?

  I just like the fit. But I feel like you have a similar aesthetic sometimes when it gets a little gray here in LA.

• 52:29Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 52:30Andy Greenwald?

  You like to wear some parkas?

• 52:32Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 52:32Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe a boot? I don't know. They can't see it on camera.

• 52:34Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 52:35Andy Greenwald?

  Did you, but, but generally, like, where were you with the Ellie's teenage rebellion, but also she might get everyone killed by-

• 52:42Chris Ryan?

  I find it very frustrating to watch, to be completely candid.

• 52:44Andy Greenwald?

  I would like you to be candid.

• 52:45Chris Ryan?

  I, I think, uh- That I think is tied to the, we're not gonna have the fight right now, Joel and Ellie stuff, and we're not gonna, we're not gonna get it all out of the table right now.

• 52:56Andy Greenwald?

  We're not gonna talk about what we're gonna talk about, we're gonna have something wedged between us.

• 52:58Chris Ryan?

  So, I kind of, I, I think that I'm more anxious about some of the human emotion and interpersonal relationships than I am about the coming zombie incursion and also like this, this Fireflies Renaissance happening out in the hills. Remember the Fireflies? Did you remember their, their, their sort of?

• 53:17Andy Greenwald?

  R.I.P.

• 53:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Andy Greenwald?

  Well, here's some things I know about them. They wore necklaces. They had a cool nickname.

• 53:24Chris Ryan?

  They were out on the federal government.

• 53:26Andy Greenwald?

  They were out on the federal government, which is, you know, what a, what a, what a ping ponging relationship people have had with the federal government recently. So, I get it.

• 53:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:36Andy Greenwald?

  Um, and, yeah, I, look, the, the, the challenge for me, and maybe it's the challenge for the show, if it's interested in, in tweener potential fans like me, which sidebar, I don't think it, it needs to be because it's a huge show regardless, is just like, as many things as possible that show some creativity spark beating heart, like, within this. The, the twin poles that define it though, of like, a scrappy band of outsiders will learn to make electricity again despite the end of everything. Plus, we gotta go get some headshots, like double tap kills. It's also the end of the world stuff, I just find at this moment, a little tiring, honestly.

• 54:18Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 54:19Andy Greenwald?

  Because as we are learning, it doesn't really go like that. It's much dumber and slower, and Katy Perry's in space. You know what I mean? So, I guess maybe I am over-leveraged.

• 54:32Chris Ryan?

  To use a phrase.

• 54:34Andy Greenwald?

  In Asian steel, let's be honest. But also, uh, on the parts of the story that I need to work for me to love it.

• 54:42Chris Ryan?

  That's really an interesting way of like, what's your, what's your portfolio?

• 54:45Andy Greenwald?

  My exposure is.

• 54:46Chris Ryan?

  Your Last of Us portfolio, we should make that like a running bit.

• 54:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, cuz I I'm just trying to I'm just trying to stay healthy. Do you know what I mean? Like, not in terms of the mushroom virus.

• 54:55Chris Ryan?

  I know, cuz it's like it's like as a as a as a story, I think it's one that you're probably like, this is not 100% really like what I like to engage with.

• 55:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and I think that's.

• 55:05Chris Ryan?

  But it's it's a momentous, it's a huge thing for TV. I think it's also very well done. I happen to like the the cordyceps are getting smarter stuff like I, you know, that's just that's just the way it goes.

• 55:17Andy Greenwald?

  Things get smarter. Actually, I would say might not be true. I I I think I think it'll be an interesting conversation that I look forward to having and seeing as the show develops because there's enough promising things here. I'll keep coming back to it. We didn't even mention like young Mazino from Beef is on the show. And I'm like, OK, I'm looking. I'm interested.

• 55:33Chris Ryan?

  Who is the big dog that Ellie tapped into submission there?

• 55:38Andy Greenwald?

  Like, who do I think he is like?

• 55:40Chris Ryan?

  Who is he? Like, was that was that guy like an actual MMA fighter or something?

• 55:43Andy Greenwald?

  He's pulled his punches. Do you believe, I mean, respect, like Bella Ramsey is a professional, she's a good performer, good actor, like.

• 55:50Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 55:50Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think she could?

• 55:51Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 55:52Andy Greenwald?

  Did you take him on on the octagon?

• 55:54Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think he was probably like, I didn't knock you out with my first punch. So yes, maybe she was able to do her spider monkey. You kind of like jump up there, get the leg lock.

• 56:02Andy Greenwald?

  I just, is Catherine O'Hara gonna do some like bare knuckle brawling?

• 56:05Chris Ryan?

  She's just gonna get 5pm drunk and and and watch it all go down.

• 56:10Andy Greenwald?

  I loved the like the soft neck like Laura Ashley sweater that she just kept through the apocalypse. I thought that was a great vibe.

• 56:17Chris Ryan?

  Shout out to Robert Burke from from the Grey Hartley movies.

• 56:20Andy Greenwald?

  That too that was from Simple Men.

• 56:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:22Andy Greenwald?

  And from one of the Robocop sequels, I believe.

• 56:24Chris Ryan?

  He's also like in in every show I've made, but he was Seth, the the homophobe.

• 56:28Andy Greenwald?

  That was my guy from Simple Men.

• 56:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:30Andy Greenwald?

  Wow. Stay working, folks.

• 56:32Chris Ryan?

  You stay working.

• 56:33Andy Greenwald?

  That's the goal.

• 56:33Chris Ryan?

  That's what I'm, that's what I want for you.

• 56:34Andy Greenwald?

  I guess what I meant to say is, I think it'll be an interesting conversation, hopefully for everyone, but like to have a show where the baseline is. My baseline for the show is, this is good, but. Well, where we like, what more does it need to do? What more does it, is it going to do? It's, it's, it's working.

• 56:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? Like in a such a-

• 56:53Chris Ryan?

  I also thought it worked very well as a roadshow and as a show that-

• 56:57Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, it's a great point.

• 56:58Chris Ryan?

  -cycled in people because of new towns, new experiences. Don't know how long they're gonna be in Jackson for. Like I said, not, not reading ahead or watching ahead or playing ahead. So I, I think a static Last of Us will feel a little bit different than the first season in, in good ways and bad.

• 57:14Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 57:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Andy Greenwald?

  Are you more of a Jackson guy or a Seattle guy?

• 57:17Chris Ryan?

  Seattle. Never been to Jackson.

• 57:19Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, it's pretty.

• 57:19Chris Ryan?

  Never been to Wyoming.

• 57:21Andy Greenwald?

  Really?

• 57:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, I've not done the Badlands. It's the, it's a, it's a big blank spot for me.

• 57:26Andy Greenwald?

  It's, it's interesting. I feel like Liz Cheney could have needed, could have used you.

• 57:29Chris Ryan?

  Badlands, Kai, you've been? Wyoming, Montana? There you go.

• 57:34Andy Greenwald?

  Well, Kai and I know something about this country. Maybe you should listen.

• 57:41Andy Greenwald?

  You know, you can be here in your ivory tower, but-

• 57:45Chris Ryan?

  I just get in my little metal tube and go from-

• 57:49Andy Greenwald?

  Sad.

• 57:50Chris Ryan?

  Metropolis to Metropolis.

• 57:51Andy Greenwald?

  It's sad, really. Watching Mike White shows, but Kai and I are out here just literally touching grass.

• 57:58Chris Ryan?

  Thanks for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. I bet what we're gonna do is talk about Dope Thief as like a concluding-

• 58:07Andy Greenwald?

  Is it concluding?

• 58:08Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember.

• 58:09Andy Greenwald?

  This is our new White Lotus because I was like, Chris, let's just hold Dope Thief till next week. There's one left. And then I got an email being like, couple more episodes.

• 58:16Chris Ryan?

  The other thing is just to cheer you up, I have a couple of Blackbeers I'd like you to watch.

• 58:20Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, do you cheer me up? Do you want to tell people which ones you're checking for? By the way, there are eight-

• 58:26Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember the titles, but I liked the Peter Capaldi one. That one specifically I'd like to talk about.

• 58:32Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, I'll watch it. Um, Dope Thief ends April 25th. Two full weeks left of Dope Thief.

• 58:38Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 58:38Andy Greenwald?

  Eight episodes. And I gotta say-

• 58:40Chris Ryan?

  You know it's next week.

• 58:40Andy Greenwald?

  I've watched five of them and I'm like, there's three more?

• 58:44Chris Ryan?

  Uh, next week is also Andor, so-

• 58:46Andy Greenwald?

  Well, we have a lot of content.

• 58:47Chris Ryan?

  Get ready for the rebellion. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you guys on Thursday.

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